Spider-Man: Sins Past, Part 2 - Atop the Fourth Wall
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- Опубликовано: 10 сен 2024
- Part 2 of 3. Part 3 here: • Spider-Man: Sins Past,...
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Welcome to Atop the Fourth Wall, where bad comics burn. Celebrating the 600th episode!
atopthefourthwa...
Originally released April 27th, 2020.
ORIGINAL DESCRIPTION: 600 episodes and it always comes back to the wallcrawler.
#at4w #Spider-Man #SinsPast
90s Spider-Man: this is starting to sound like a bad comic book plot
Scarlet spider: it gets worse
Why did that make me think of the TF2 bit?
-This is a bucket.
-Dear, God.
-There's more.
-No...
Peter, don't even try with the meme this time. I know you're coping but this won't be aired on kids television.
Well played, sir...
And somehow “Spider Wars” made more sense than this: had a better impact on the myths too.
Mike Manhattan
That line seems mostly a reference to the awful 90: clones saga
Me, initially:
"I mean, some people don't go for sex right away. I don't know if that's in character for Peter, but not EVERYONE has sex in college. Nothing wrong with that."
Me at the Osborn reveal:
"...oh. Oooooooh. OH! Oh no."
Yeah... that's the appropriate reaction. That, or projectile vomiting.
@@prince_nocturne If you'll excuse me, I'm going to take an antacid. Ugh, this comic.
Michael Sporzynski I agree that I think it’s in Peter’s character to not go for sex right away but dear God I would greatly prefer the idea of him and Gwen having sex before marriage over the idea that she would have cheated on Peter with…THAT.
I think the issue is less that it’s the character’s view, and more that it’s a view imposed on the character by the higher-ups.
My thoughts exactly
When you said "it gets much worse later", I asked myself "what's the WORST possibility here?" and I joked "Norman Osborn is the real dad?"
I HATE THAT THIS COMIC MADE ME RIGHT!
I envy you that you didn't already know, and feel terrible for you that you had to find out.
@@PDComicBookNetwork I honestly don't know WHAT I was expecting from this story.
🤮
@@dn22pkkdd476 followed by literal assassination of course.
Well what can I say? Peter is a young, poor student with shitty job and a street-level hero.
Norman is a mature, successful billionaire, scientist, supervillain, head of Oscorp, and finally - a hot sexy man! I think the choice is obvious😏😏
You could rename this entire story arc as "Spider-Man: Nope! Nope! No! Nuh-uh, nuh-uh! No, no, no, no! Hell No! No! I Said No!"
Actually a better title would be "Spiderman: WTF WERE THEY THINKING?"
A huge nope
"Spider-Man and the Land of 10,000 Nopes".
@@duncananderson2113 OH YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!!!!
@@duncananderson2113 same guy that ordered the Code Red.
Quesada’s moral problems with the “out of wedlock” thing are especially hypocritical given that he had no problem with Peter making a literal deal with the Devil.
that's a problem with the sliding timescale and forcing it straight: trying to enforce older point of view on current situation
which it's particulary ironical with the "spiderman is anywhere between 16 to 27" with how generation worked out in the last thirty years
That and Peter has slept with Black Cat before he was even married MJ, and there is a scene in Spider-Man: Blue that highly implies Peter and Gwen had sex that started their relationship
Man you hit the nail on the head. Virginity and chastity has always been a Christian principle. Sooooooo making a deal with the devil whom's name is derived from the Hebrew word for destroyer AND liar is a ok as long as it "retcons" this entire story???????? You can't make this shit up. You just cannot. And I love hearing rants and raves about it. It warms my heart 🤣🤣
One is a bit of more issue for a role model than the other dint you think in terms of what people actually could do lol. But it was the reckless unprotected part of the quote you also ignore.
@@actionjackson4982 I mean all Jewish derived religions and probably many others.
Those kids weren't just born...
They were Osborn!
God, please end the quarantine soon.
3/10 You can do better.
You're a monster... good work
You tried to kill me with that felonious joke, didn't you? XD
God i actually laughed.
Curse you xD
*puts on glasses
*BGM: YEEEEEAAAAAAHHHHH!!
I've noticed something about the way Linkara's rage and disgust at stories has changed. Before it used to be always ranting and screaming, often getting high pitched, but now, when he's well and truly pissed, he's more quiet, starting off at Tranquil Fury, slipping into a growl when some of that rage slips through, and only saving raising his voice for when the comic really deserves it.
ShadowL Drago Not to mention tranquil fury is often more effective than how we usually think of/express anger.
Loud and roaring makes you seem irrational and volatile, tranquil is more focused and precise, keeping the anger in reserve until it can be used to the greatest effect.
Christian Farren Indeed when we bring up Linkara’s loud breakdowns like in Tandy Computer Whiz Kids or The Culling, we can sorta laugh at how insane he’s being driven.
Same can’t be said for the moments in Holy Teror or Sins Past. Soft, quiet, but sure as hell not dulled. It’s laser focused and certain because these are not to be laughed at and are serious matters.
A lot of people do both, myself for instance. I do the loud, ranty type when I'm more just frustrated beyond belief (especially if it's at the overwhelming stupidity of something, which I have little patience with to begin with), and do the quiet, tranquil fury punctuated with growls and very few yells when I'm honestly, truely angry to the point of pissed. Linkara is probably the same way. Plus, you can make yelling/ranting funny (I'm often sarcastic as hell when I'm in that mode), but the quite type is great for expressing when something truely, honestly infuriates and disgusts you.
@@christianfarren1179 Precisely. Also it's easier on his throat and the ears of anyone who may have sensitive hearing for whatever reason.
I think part of it is time. Linkara/Lewis's growth over the years as both a person, creator and character. He's admitted in the past that as goes on with the reviews and rants that he learns more and create better content.
"Alright, we need a big new Spider-Man story, one that recontextualises a bunch of stuff. Any ideas?"
"Spider-Man gets cuckolded by the Green Goblin"
"...perfect."
That’s the greatest way to summarize this story lol.
You know, besides ‘WHY’
More like perfectly disgusting
"Ohh Gobbie, fly me higher~"
@@DAsrada STOP.
It sounds like something that JJJ would make up.
Wait the twins sent photos of themselves meeting MJ and Aunt May with their own heads blacked out. So did MJ meet a woman who looked exactly like her dead friend and just not notice?
THat's a very good point. In fact, this makes just one more stupid decision that comes from wanting Sarah to look like Gwen right down to the headband.
I swear, it's like if an art school graduate was in charge of the writing.
Hey yeah, how did MJ not notice that? I guess Sarah could have been wearing a disguise but we don’t know for sure cause she’s blacked out in the picture
Linkara, remember this for your next missed opportunities video.
...
You raise a good point, but the marvel universe is weird enough to throw that sh*t at her and it not be connected. Yes I'm grasping for straws.
Yup, exactly with May is fsir think she won't see anything weird, but with MJ she would notice it.
That "OSBORN!" Page looks like Peter doing a Tommy Wisseau impression.
"You're tearing me apart Gwen Stacy!"
"Everybody betray me, I'm so sick of this world!"
Drakkenmensch Silverflare “ha ha! You’re just a little goblin.... CHEEP CHEEP CHEEEEP!”
They are not my kids it's bullshit they're not my kids they're not.... Oh hi m.j.
“YOU ARE TEARING ME APART, NORMAN!!!”
He should've yelled "NORMAN!" instead. Because why not go full Wrath of Khan?
Osborn: "Peter Parker is your father, and you must kill him."
Twins: "OK, but who are you?"
The creepy uncle
Linkara: “THEY...BANGED!”
Happy 600th episode!
Lol. I love your videos too.
Love your videos
It's been said a thousand, thousand times, but I don't think there has ever been a better example then this comic:
Two types of fan rage: The type that makes you hate the character, and the type that makes you hate the creator.
Nobody, but NOBODY, was aiming their rage at Gwen Stacy for the creators having her shack up with Norman Osborn.
Marvel didn't just cross the line when it came to Spider-Man mythos with this one. Marvel threw up on it.
They crossed the line..... And then proceeded to re cross it back and forth like it was freaking hopscotch
I understood that Simpsons reference.
I wish Thanos snapped this comic out of existence.
Or it got wiped out during a Crisis On Infinite Earths type situation.
Joe Quesada: "Mr. Lovhaug? I don't feel so good..."
Even Mephisto didn't erase this story) Well, I think on purpose ...
...you know, between this, Trouble, and that one story where Peter killed MJ with his radioactive sperm, perhaps it would be best if the topic of sex were totally omitted from any and all Spider-Man stories.
kinda funny. a youtuber i follow said, spider-sperm topic apart, reign was a really good story with one of his personal favorite dialogues being in Spider- Man: Reign. despite the spider-redioactive-sperm
@ULGROTHA I mean, that wouldn't stop everybody else in Peter's life from having weird sex and ruining everything, but it wouldn't hurt.
Honestly, I have read elseworld stories where Peter has a biological daughter with his powers (Renew Your Vows, I believe was the title), and that, I think, is the only valid depiction of a sexually active Spider-Man.
@@toqkaizogou1636 if you liked that I'd recommend the original spider-girl series (if you haven't read it already). It has a different daughter and is dated but it was good enough that it lasted over 100 issues over several series.
ToqKaizogou cool. I’ve been bingeing them on marvel unlimited
Executives: We can't make Peter the father, it'd be out of character and age him!
Also executives: Making Gwen Stacy have an affair with Harry's dad is in character and won't age anyone
Also also executives: Are we so out of touch that we think we can write better than the writers? No, it's the fans who are wrong.
Joe in a nutshell: ruclips.net/video/5hWMMdPdegA/видео.html
@@sebastianevangelista4921
Joe who?
@@darthlazurus4382 Quesada
@@sebastianevangelista4921
Ah. Sorry.
@@darthlazurus4382 It's okay
Whoo boy, here it comes boys and girls, the real reason this comic is so hated and despised. THE MOST UNCOMFORTABLE SPIDER-MAN STORY OF ALL TIME!
Ouch. Major Yikes.
@@teddyfurstman1997
*YUP.*
Some major yikes/creep levels in this story.
Is it worse than avengers 200?
@@HenshinHeroesMedia No, but Spiderman is not in that story.
Yeah now I see what the fuss is about, again the first half of the story I can deal with as sure its not the best idea but in the right hands (even JMS) could have been something decent. The retcons are not the issue as one can overlook them but having Gwen have sex with Norman? GAH! They should have stuck to it have the father be Peter or hate to say it them being the children of a rape because that would at least throw something into this that could have made this better. Not saying rape as a storytelling plot is a good thing but I could run with it and make it viable like a tragedy wrapped up in another but having Gwen willingly sleep with Norman? no just no.
When a Spider-Man story is so offensive and repugnant that they need to add a Disclaimer at the start.
and Marvel top excs, didn't let this to be renconed this out of existence
It's actually because of RUclips's guidelines. All the talk of sex risks getting the video de-monitized, so the disclaimer helps mitigate the danger.
joaocisne556 To be fair to retcon it would be to recognise it existed and remind people that this happened.
Honestly it’s probably better at this point to pretend this never happened.
El Perro Spike ...Amazing Spider-Man 2? Lol
@@PFiction24 don't joke that comparison; that was better than this ever could hope to be! XD
Dan Slott slammed the retcon button *hard* on this storyline in his "The Clone Conspiracy" event, where we get a flashback to Green Goblin kidnapping Gwen Stacy while boasting _at length_ about how she's just a witless pawn -- no, less then that, just a nobody that he only cares about because her demise would hurt Spider-Man. Like, it's almost comical how Gobby goes out of his way to establish he has no interest or personal attachment to Gwen whatsoever as he kidnaps her.
Yeah It could only have been more blatant if he straight up yelled I didn't bang her! Granted clone conspiracy has its own crappy gwen retcon though by no means as crappy as this one and not as crappy as it initially seemed.
I'm surprise no writer didn't just retcon the twins as two random Mutants or whatever who Osborne kidnapped and brainwashed into believing they were his and Gwen's kids. You wouldn't need a big story or even a whole issue: Just a few panels where Norman brags about it to someone.
@@wdcain1 I mean Nick Spencer’s run references sins past
@@paulakroy2635 Really? I'm reading that run currently and I don't remember Sins Past being referenced. Was it a recent issue?
@@paulakroy2635 It don't, it's not that obvious. He just provokes Spider-Gwen and Peter.
The clenched fists at chest level...the screaming rage...
“YOU’RE TEARING ME APAHRT OSBORN!!”
“Ha Ha your just a little Goblin. CHEEP CHEEP CHEEP”
Me, never knowing a thing about the story
They're Peter and Gwen's time traveling kids. a little overdone, but not a terrible idea
Continue listening on.
They're Gwen and Harry Osborn's kids. Weird, but not terrible, and the spectacular spiderman series has a love triangle between them
Continue listening on...
I'm sorry, what?
I was thinking they were clones created from mixing the DNA of the two.
Either way, any one of these would have been a better reveal than what we actually got.
Stop having better plot ideas than the actual comic!
I never thought time traveling nonsense would be a preferred version of events. but here we are.
@@SilverHairedFreak25
Clones would have been far better. We already had Norman go this far, and cloning Gwen just seems like far less an asspull.
@@Bezaliel13 And if the comic was so set on making Gwen a willing culprit to "remove Peter's heavenly delusions", the clone version could have her willingly offer her DNA. If Osborn lied about his long term plan for the clone, then she could be revealed as too trusting. If she did know that the thing was part of an elaborate revenge scheme, she could justify it to herself as "this guy seems so obsessed that he will make it happen 1 way or another so if I give my DNA he won't have to take it by force" or something like that. Not perfect, but better than what we got.
I feel like this kind of story could have been done if they actually handled it with the care this kind of story needs. If you really wanted to paint Gwen as someone who was flawed and made a huge mistake:
The kids are Peter's, not because of carelessness but because of an accident. Condom broke, like you said.
They didn't age rapidly, but are 3 or 4 years old and have been adopted by an unrelated family
Norman Osborne is nowhere near this story
Mary Jane knows absolutely nothing about it
Gwen found out about the pregnancy and kept it to herself. She didn't want kids, she was a college student. While she loved Peter, she knew that wasn't a step they were ready for. As time went on, she realized that it wouldn't stay a secret for long so she took the initiative to find a family who wanted to adopt and went to live near them while the pregnancy ran it's course. Maybe she told everyone that it was an abroad program, but she actually went a few states over. She had the kids, signed adoption papers, took some weeks to recover, and then returned home with no one the wiser.
You could even keep the lost letter plot line, but have it show up at the end. It's a long ramble from Gwen about how she felt trapped and this was the only thing she could think to do and how sorry she is that she never told Peter about his kids but also asking him to honor the fact that she adopted them to a wonderful couple with the promise that there would be no contact with the birth parents or something like that. Peter gets rightfully mad that she did all this behind his back, maybe he would have been overjoyed to know Gwen was pregnant at the time. But then he feels guilty about being mad at a dead woman who made a horrible mistake.
You could pull so much more drama from that. I'm sure Peter and MJ would have plenty to work out after the revelation that Peter has kids that neither of them knew about. And it does "remove Gwen's halo" but in a way that is both understandable, yet hurts everyone she loved.
Al i I would read that story.
@@MaggieCandy999 I've been sitting here trying to think of an inciting incident that would bring the whole messy affair to life.
Maybe the adopted parents are reaching out, trying to find Gwen after years of no contact because one of the kids is sticking to the walls and they think they're a mutant. And they're reaching out to ask Gwen if the father was one, or if there is any mutant DNA in her history. Just cause they want to know how to navigate this new info.
Word gets out that someone has been asking after Gwen to talk about her children and that's how Peter finds out?
That's definitely not an action packed "these people know Peter's identity and are going to kill his family" kind of start lol
@@Al-chem-i Well if you want action have the kids time travelling to the present and peter finding their younger present selves.
My spin to the story would be something more dumb but understandable:
FIRST OF ALL: Mj doens't know about this at all.
Second (and everything else)
Just have Sarah and gabriel be clones made by osborn using his DNA and gwen's after profanating her corpse (like what superboy conner kent is, made out of superman's and luthor's DNA). i mean, if osborn truly orchestrated the clone saga he might have thought about this idea just to further twist the knife in peter's heart: make him believe this insanity, and have the kids of his dead girlfriend kill him. then osborn kills the kids and there, he gots further closure. or he doesn't kill them and has 2 loyal super soldiers.
just have his motivation be "he was bored" or "this is the beginning and he will come to make peter's life come crashing down as a ultimate revenge" :a combination of the go down swinging and goblin nation we got in real life but happening earlier. with some tones of osborn's chracterization during dark reign. that now that peter has been accepted as an avengers and is stepping his game, he is doing that too. but to do so he has to truly destroy his "shackle": spider-man. bonus points if it somehow tied with the characterization JMS was going for of cosmic mythologies. that osborn has been chosen by another weird deity too (like the "Goblin Force" in the MARVEL universe. google it); or as motivation have him get revenge AT first implying he wants revenge for harry's death but then reveal osborn doesn't care baout harry (or that if he used to, not anymore), he only wants revenge for the destruction of his legacy. If so, then have also reveal he also kept the daughter peter thought to be lost in the 90's and trained her to kill him
Maybe if you truly want to comit to the "dark themes" have osborn form the Sinister 666.
BUT I DIGRESS back to sarah and gabriel.
About sarah, maybe have her go on her own journey of self discovery. maybe coming back after learning what osborn is up to or tryig to integrate in mary jane and peter's lives popping up as a recurring extra. MAYBE developing a parent-child relationship with them and aunt may (especially if the idea i mentioned of bringing peter's and mj's daughter is true).
AND Gabriel? he essentially becomes a more twisted "son trying to gain osborn's father approval" and going really the deep end.
I hate how much better that Idea is, Seriously!! Who thought this was a good idea?
Someone who hates Peter shd his fanbase.
One More Day: I'm the most hated Spider-Man comic in the history of the character
Sins Past: Hold my web-shooter.
Kids, kids.... You're both terrible
@@SuperWolsey "Actually, let me grab my whiteboard! This has been a long time coming, anyway."
Sins Remembered: “No, you hold mine.”
Spider-Man Reign: *chuckles ominously in the corner*
I think One More Day still wins by sheer impact and what it took away, I'm not even sure if Sins Past is still canon.
@@gota7738 Yeah, a lot of people wonder why "Sins Past" is not, at the very least, as hated as OMD. The reason is that "Sins Past" is relatively easy to sweep under the rug and pretend it didn't happen, when you get down to it.
You can't do that with "One More Day".
The "Osborn Scream" kinda looks more like what the VILLAIN of a story would do when he realized that the hero screwed him over.
I mean, it was the reverse so...
In this case Osborn literally screwed Peter over. Now he'll be looking over his shoulder just in case any of his love interests suddenly develop the hots for a middle aged supervillain who dresses up as a goblin.
It looks more like an exclamation from Phoenix Wright
@@DAsrada God knows we have enough goblins for that to be a genuine concern
"Excuse me, everyone. I need to go and vomit for the next thousand years."
You and me both, Linkara. You and me both. :-(
linkara: "what's the meaning of life?"
linkaras cat: *purr purr purr purr purr*
supersmashbro596 I think she said skittles
Good thing Linkara has Viga and two kitties in his life to keep him sane. I'm guessing that's why Combine Harvester montages are rare now.
Wait but cats always lie so m&ms are the true meaning of life
Man, Gwen never got a break when it came to middle aged supervillains wanting to do her.
Except maybe when its the other way around.
Wait, what’s this BS about how people just come to MJ to reveal their darkest secrets?
Gwen didn’t confess to her under an oath of absolute secrecy, MJ caught her more or less in the act and Gwen confessed.
This isn’t like MJ was her therapist.
Also, what is with the weird allusions to how this situation is just like Peter with his secret identity?
MJ keeps Gwen‘s secret because she revealed them to her like Peter revealed he’s Spider-Man (not true as stated above)
Then they imply Gwen is into Osborn for potentially the same reason she was into Peter (sad but are secretly powerful)
Are they going to imply Osborn and Peter are the same? That Peter’s secret identity is the same terrible secret as Gwen cheating on Peter and getting impregnated?
What are they trying to say?
Right? She fucking lied too. She got caught and was sworn to secrecy. Why would you frame it like that IMMEDIATELY after she said Gwen “told her”!?
Dalton Williams it’s just so contrived
Beating a dead horse should equate to Beating a Dead Gwen when referring to these stories :P
Seems like the "stuffed in a fridge" sequel:
Grabbed outta the fridge!
This definetly needs to go into TV Tropes.
Dropping a dead blonde.
I want a Spider-Man comic where the Goblin tries dropping someone off a bridge and Peter just saves them without a problem, before explaining that he's desensitized at this point.
@@DalekTheSupreme well technically speaking we did get in the ultimate spider-man comics
I've hated how they have written Norman Osborn since they recton him back to life. He was always an asshole before becoming the Green Goblin but he also had Humanity and was a victim of his own insanity. Now he's just " I am evil generic businessman who kicks puppies and is desperately trying to be Lex Luthor but is less cool." This storyline is a prime example of him being uninteresting Petty jerk.
He was a much better written character in the recent Spider-Man game.
The PS4 game does give him humanity.
Hell a lot of the unethical stuff hes done in that game, he did it for the sake of his Son
Road to Hell is paved with good intentions and PS4 Norman is a key example. (FUCK Otto though.)
I dunno. As an abusive father and a corrupt CEO who also goes out and causes problems as a supervillain, I don't see Norman Osborn as a character who should ever be sympathetic. The human elements should be there to ground him, of course, but I don't see him as a character whose actions should be portrayed as any way justified or beyond his own control.
I do like his depiction in the game though, even if he isn't Green Goblin-ing it up.
Norman was originally written as a completely insane man, but for some reason when they resurrected him for the Clone Saga they completely changed his character, pretty much erasing his insanity and making him a lousy mix of Lex Luthor and Kingpin. It was a terrible decision, and I loathe the character to this day.
@@manjiimortal
Does he still think he is Cassidy?
@Hasatanel Belial I have no idea, because I no longer care about Spiderman comic books. Haven't for well over a decade.
It just struck me... Peter's first reaction to this whole thing was "This is Norman Osbourne's fault.". He didn't know how. He didn't know why. But, he was sure that it all traced back to him. He knows that this is just the state of Spider-man stories at this point.
Peter: OSBORRRN!!!!!!
Me: MARVELLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also Me, :QUESADAAAAAA!
SHOCKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRR!
Me : JJMMMSSSSS
Me: EVERYONNNE!!!!!!
ONORE, DIKEIDOOOOOO!!!!!! This too was Decade's fault
Peter: "OSBORN!"
Everyone who reads this: "STRACZYNSKI!"
Me: "MARVEL!"
M.ComicFan me: EDITORS
Me: Goddamn it, QUESADAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!
*cameo* Deadpool: "WILSON!!!"
I HAVE NOTHING ELSE MEANINGFUL TO YELLLLLLLLLLLL
8:00 to 8:08:
He’s right. Gwen’s death happened in 1973, meaning that her death happened eight years ago in sliding time before “Sins Past.” Since this storyline is set in 2004, Gwen would have died eight years ago in sliding time in 1996. And since it’s 2020, her death would have happened fourteen years ago in sliding time in 2006, which is a decade ahead of her death before the storyline.
I honestly expected Peter to be screaming "NYRAAARGH!" during his breakdown. That would've brilliantly foreshadowed his similar breakdown in One More Day. xD
Exactly what I was expecting when Lewis started building it up.
"Ah. Nyaaargh. Just gets you... right there. You know, in the thymus gland."
Here's an idea on hos the scream could've worked:
A side view of Peter's face. He's visibly utterly pissed off, eyes far wide open, and screaming at a window he's facing. His head is out forward a bit, his hands and arms raised up pressed against the window. He's just screaming. No words. Just screaming. But we get no sounds. No dialogue. Nothing except a slight resemblance to a screaming sound effect slightly visible in the reflection of the window.
That’s what I was expecting!
...I...I rarely ever get genuinely disgusted. But this...the part where Gwen describes why she was attracted to Norman and slept with him...
...What on EARTH were they thinking?!?
I know. I nearly threw up on my computer just reading this dialogue.
That is what happens when middle aged men write women
I took it as implying she was attracted to his inner creepy murderer Goblin persona, which makes it even worse.
@@sortedevaras absolutely everything about the impetus of this comic is wrong.
I have one answer....... they weren't
Joe Quesada really does strike me as the kind of guy (similar to NC) who insist that Spider-man should be a role model and how he can't be a bad example... Forgetting that the reason why Spider-man is so relatable to many is cause Peter isn't perfect and his life is hard. Peter having children out of wedlock would had been perfect for him to show him as a common man trying to make up for a past mistake and actions he genuinely felt for a woman he cared for, even more tragic for her passing, hence pining for her over MJ after all those years would had make sense. Him never having slept with her just makes his desire for her look like he messed his chance to score with her, and Osborn beat him to it. And Quesada is a idiot if he seriously thinks kids in college don't have sex, or is seriously stuck up there with his conservative beliefs yet fine with a deal with Mephisto.
Really this isn't a bad Comic book, This is a BAD HENTAI story, all it was missing was Osborn sending Peter the tape to torture him.
Some kids don't have sed in college. That's fine to.
juan ortiz does NC mean Nostalgia Critic
ULGROTHA if Doug thinks that I have to wonder why he loves the TMAS version of the character. Given that incarnation of Peter stole somebody’s chance at an Internship at Oscorp by swiping their card and initially became Spider-Man out of a desire for Vengeance not responsibility.
Also he broke his promise to the late Captain Stacey instead continuing to date Gwen despite knowing the risks
ULGROTHA why haven’t you unsubscribe from him
@ULGROTHA how are you downloading his videos
“What’s the meaning of life?” “Lasagna, Jon”
You know, as bad as this comic is... I could totally see Peter making the deal with Mephisto if Aunt May's possible death had coincided with this revelation. I could see Peter be willing to throw it all away because of MJ keeping Gwen's secret. I'd still want them together (and a better ending would be Peter and MJ reconciling instead of the devil deal) but it would feel more earned if he had a reason to doubt their relationship.
David Blyth
Love the profile pic. Ten and Donna forever.
They should have renamed this story Spider-Man: Eww, Dude
Honestly I can kind of see why MJ would keep it a secret from Peter and can forgive her for doing so for 3 reasons:
1) She didn't want to break her promised to her deceased friend.
2) She din't want to taint her memory by revealing that she was a cheater.
3) She probably thought that it would be better if the kids were raised in an orphanage rather than by Peter (Both for the kids' physical well being and Peter's mental well being).
Alright, that does it, I'm calling it - "Sins Past" is worse than "One More Day"! OMD is dumb, but at least it didn't feel so... Avengers #200-ish!
Sins Past is terrible but it was at least limited in its terribleness. In terms of overall damage I would say OMD is worse. OMD basically overwrites Spider-man's character. It basically had him sell his relationship to the devil so he wouldn't have to feel guilty about about May dying. That is a shit interpretation of Spider-man.
@@peterng7702 What about that time Peter killed MJ with his radioactive sperm? I know it's something of a what-if but... it was still written, drawn, and published! Also includes old-man Peter's junk.
@@prince_nocturne Its still not very good. As others have said before Spider-man Reign basically was a "The Dark Knight Returns" Rip-off. But I can somewhat forgive its flaws because it was basically an Elseworlds story and thus I can stomach some of the changes made even if I do think the tone the story was going for didn't fit Spider-man well. But between OMD and Radioactive Cum-man I would say Spider-man Reign was more faithful to the character of Spider-man than OMD Peter was. Then again we're talking about a man who sold out his relationships to ease his guilty conscience
On the one hand, One More Day's effects were longer reaching and more damaging in the long run.
On the other hand, the motivations and actions in One More Day could at least be understood, and the subject matter wasn't so repulsive.
It's pretty much pick your poison. I'd rather read One More Day than Sins Past, but if I had to choose one to be erased from existence, I'd throw One More Day into the void.
This is so bad, it makes what Frank Miller did in ASBAR look good. How the freaking hell did anyone think this trash was okay to print?!!
2:52
"What's the meaning of life?"
Cat: *Confused Tom face*
It’s either the number 42, or crushing and driving your enemies before you & hearing women lamentations.
"I'm Chaplin!"
“Oh, so she sleep with Harry or something during his relapse and... oh, oh no. Why?! Why would you write THAT? Why would you draw THAT?!” At least if she had slept with Harry at some point I think that would have made some sort of sense. I don’t know how close of a relationship they had but they at least would have had a connection that wasn’t creepy and gross. They could have even retconned it to being part of the reason for Harry’s relapse, not being able to take the pressure of sleeping with a friend’s girlfriend and getting her pregnant. The guilt eating him up inside as it becomes harder and harder to hide it and forget about it. Neither of them planning on hurting Peter, just one night during a stressful time finding momentary comfort in each other. You could even keep them has having been secretly raised by Norman. Him figuring it out and using it against everyone. It wouldn’t have been difficult to write this story in a less gross way
You just wrote out a better synopsis for a script than this one. Without even trying!!
Harry and Gwen where even teenhood friends before going to college. And both where having issues in their lives and relationships.
Like if you had to retcon them from being Peter's kids and get the Osborns involved, wouldn't that be the more obvious connection?
Just say they decided to meet up and hangout like old days and recollect the simpler times, got drunk and fooled around then regretted it the next day and swore not to tell anyone. Only for Norman to find our and start messing round.
It's still a bad idea but it's not sleeping with the supervillain who would murder you.
@@gota7738 it is a very flawed story concept but At the very least it is not a story concept that is on fire
When linkara was building up peter’s guttural scream, I half expected Peter to yell: NYAARG! Like in one more day.
Atop the 4th Wall 600th episode: Too Big For One Night.
I agree it'll spend an entire week on why this thing is so awful and bad.
The WrestleMania 36 of Internet Reviews.
Peter: OSBORN!
Captain Kirk: KHAN!!
Joseph joestar: CESAR!!!!!!!!
Spongebob: Spongebob
Donkey: Donkey!!!
Sal: MOOKIE!!!!
Kaneda: TETSUOOOO!!!!!
Also Peter: SHOCKER!!!!!!!!!!!
They should have made the twins Peter's kids. I mean Cyclops has three grown up kids in Cable, Rachel Summers and Nate Grey and the writers found way to work with them. Making them Norman Osborn kids was stupid and not necessary. Joe Quesada mentality that Peter Parker must be eternally young really hurt the character and the world building around him.
[Peter has Peter Pan Syndrome]
Through TIME TRAVEL. Do you realize how little sense it would make with Marvels time scale for the kids to actually be the age they are!?
@@mathieuleader8601 It surprises me Mary Jane Watson hasn't played Wendy or Tinkerbell in her acting Career.....
Makes Peter Parker even more like Peter B. Parker in Into The Spidervere, but Scratch that this character does not refer to that great Han Solo take of him in that movie.
@@eamonndeane587 we still have time...
Interestingly the author of Sailor Moon defied the whole girls must be virgins to be pure trope quite well with Usagi and Mamoru and her response was epic.
Was it though.
What was it?
Sorry this took a while to respond to since I was trying to find the quote but I couldn't but what I found instead that pretty much say the same thing were several analysis of her work that pretty much say the whole thing and while she may have not physically said it(though she did make her opinion known to her editors that she wanted to draw Usagi in certain poses and styles, just look at her artbooks and you will see what I mean) her work shows it the best and as usual "show don't tell" can be a powerful message, Usagi is never demonized for her choices nor does she lose her powers just because she has grown up just look at alot of Magical girl shows where the girls do lose there powers when they get older, in short Takeuchi's response to many tropes especially what is being discussed here is that just because Usagi isn't a virgin doesn't change her as a character nor does it color the perceptions of those around her that she is anything else but who she was.
The anime on the other hand though well she did once say that it was her story told through a male lens so things got lost in translation from Manga to Anime.
“What where you thinking?” Is a really good question this whole thing is so poorly thought out. I cannot believe anyone would think this was a good idea.
Needs an AVGN clip!!!
We're beyond "what were you thinking?" at this point. A better question would be "were you thinking at all?"
Linkara: "What were they thinking?! Were they thinking?"
Nerd (AVGN): "Hey! That's my line, mister."
Linkara: "...Sorry."
Nerd (AVGN): "You should better watch out, Linkara. Better. Watch. Out."
Linkara: "...I do not feel safe, Pollo."
Pollo: "Agreed with you on that one, Linkara."
Harvey Finevoice: "Yep, agreed with you on that one... Wait, where the heck did i even get here?..."
You think Palpatine made the same face Osborne made when he conceived Rey's father?
Okay this makes appreciate the ALTERNATE Gwens a lot more. At least they didnt have sex with Norman Osborn
Marvel: "WRITE THAT DOWN! WRITE THAT FUCKING DOWN NOW!"
@@toqkaizogou1636
Write down "Gwen is better when she does not sleep with Norman Osborn?"
@@Bezaliel13 I would say yes. Because apparently *someone* at Marvel needed to have their hand held if *this* travesty became a thing.
ToqKaizogou *draws tic tac toe*
We all know one thing about cats:
🎵 *CATS LOVE FOOD, YEAH - YEAH!!!* 🎶
Love the DBZ reference
A cat is not... A dog
Honestly, the cat purring is probably the best answer to "What is the meaning of the universe?"
The meaning of the universe is a happy cat.
MJ's speech about her promise to Gwen reminded me of Peter's "those are the best kind" one liner at the end of Amazing Spider-Man.
Peter's Osborn scream looks more like he's constipated than like he's in mental anguish.
Like "Gwen cheated on me with my worst enemy... conceiving twins who shortly before her death were... OS-BOOOORN"
They held hands out of wedlock and performed unprotected hugs!
Honestly if that was the major twist from it it would probably be considered an amazing example of trolling, but still be a bad comic
HEATHENS!!! BURN THEM!!!
😲😲😲😲😲😲😲😲😲😲😲
I hear they even said that they loved each other without a hint of marriage. So irresponsible!
Aunt May walks in on Peter and Gwen holding hands: Heavens to Betsy, Peter! You know you're not supposed to do that until you were married at 59!
15:14 The whole dressing as a goblin, murdering people and destroying buildings while laughing maniacally really gets the ladies going apparently.
...So... does anyone else have a horrible feeling that there was going to be a much darker in-universe explanation for how Norman fathered Gwen's twins, but then someone in the editorial process had enough sense to say, "yeah, uh, no, that'd be going a little bit too far"?
Reading Gwen's explanation of going to Norman, I legit feel sick. Like... What fifty shades of gross is this? Did she know he was the Goblin? Who wrote this and thought this reflected her character accurately? How old is Norman supposed to be here?
And now I sit back and wait for Linkara's reaction.
Addendum: Save a bucket for me, Linkara.
Regardless of whether or not she knew Norman was the Green Goblin; Norman Osborne was still a cruel, self-serving asshole completely devoid of any compassion or empathy for others. Even if we assume that Gwen had some pretty powerful “daddy-issues,” there is just absolutely no freaking way she would have ever slept with him!
"He was just so strong, and so sad, I couldn't..."
Couldn't help but bang your boyfriend's best friend's middle-aged father? Yeah, that's a very relatable and sympathetic circumstance, we've all been there.
Like, really, why Norman? If you wanna "knock Gwen off her pedestal" or whatever, why not have her cheat on Peter with Harry? Adultery is a terrible enough thing by itself, but making it Norman Osborn seems like it was done just for shock value.
Ding! Ding! Ding! And we have a winner! Step right up and claim your prize!!
@@kelvinphillips7140 unless the prize is eye bleach no prize is worth this comic.
That can work if this was Hentai or Porno? Its not! Its a comic book that anyone can read in any age.
Who the hell decided to make Osborn's O-face look like Tommy Lee Jones high?!
If it were Willem Dafoe as the visual reference (with the classic hair) being used as reference at the time this comic was drawn, that puts "we're gonna have a good time" quote from the first Raimi Spider-Man film in a new context.
@@DarsiPadilla If this Norman was modeled after Dafoe, I would at least understand from an aesthetic level why Gwen could have been attracted to him. Can't see that with him based on a nearly-60 year old Tommy Lee Jones.
@@BigAmericanGirlFan I mean Williem is a Chad so I could. Understand. But Tommy eww ( btw this is a joke comment )
They could've has the twins be Peter and Gwen's children from another universe instead. Making them Norman Osborn's kids is so stupid.
What the heck were the editors of Marvel thinking?
Or maybe have them be some random peoples that Norman, for no reasons, brainwash to think they are Gwen's kids or something.
Billy McCrary or harry’s because that could’ve made slightly more sense 😒
@@gracefutrell1912 Screw that! That's as worse as Norman being the father!
@@crowwithinternetservice Not really. Harry was Gwen's ex-boyfriend. Gwen could have had a moment of weakness. It's better than Gwen's killer being the father.
Clones. Gwen banging Norman was far dumber than Osborn simply making another Gwen clone would have been.
Okay to put this into perspective, this came out the same year as Spider-Man 2 came out. Yeah Im starting to realize Spider-Man is treated far better in other mediums outside of comics
spider-man has been treated in a shitty way since the clone saga, why? because his character got older and married, marvel editorial had a panic attack and try to either replace him (ben railly) or have him young again with magic bullshit (one more day).
@@slifer875 That was because Spiderman 2 was a box office hit, and the execs at Marvel were afraid that the older Parker would not be "relatable" to movie viewers who might be interested in the comic book.
That is until Avi Arad via Spider-Man 3, Civil War and OMD were like "hold my Spidey-Mug!"
@@kelvinphillips7140 even though movie goers did want Peter and MJ to stay together
15:10
The only thing worse would be if she said and the green mask made him look extra hot lol.
Excuse me. I need to go vomit forever.
actually she kind of did.
the implication is that it wasn't Norman but the green goblin she fell for.
which is SO much fucking worse than even the idea of her sleeping with with Norman for Normans sake.
it even acidently(i damn well hope at least it was an acident) imply she had a thing for secret identies and was really in love with spiderman and ONLY spiderman.
0:25-0:33
Comic: GUESS WHO?!
Wayne Campbell: Why It's Old Man Withers; The Guys who runs the Haunted Amusement Park
Old Man Withers: AND I WOULD'VE GOTTEN AWAY WITH IT TOO, IF IT WASN'T FOR YOU SNOOPIN' KIDS!!
Maybe it's just me, but Peter's pose when he screams Norman's name made me think of the, "You are tearing me apart, Lisa!" bit from The Room. It being followed by him wrecking the room makes it seem even more like that bit from the movie.
Watching part 1, I was like "This is bad, but nowhere near as bad as he's making it sound."
Watching part 2, "OH FUCK NOW I GET IT."
21:23-21:29 - For me personally, it's less Vader's "Nooooooooo!!!" from Revenge of the Sith and more "You are tearing me apart, Lisa!" from The Room. Even Peter's expression and posture kinda resemble Tommy Wiseau from that scene.
I’m still disgusted they made Norman the father I have an easy alternative if they really wanted something like this why not make Harry the father and the kids were just raised by Norman he gives them experimental Goblin serum that rapidly aged them or time travelers something else anything else
I say it should have been clones. Be less an asspull than Gwen finding him "irresistible."
@@Bezaliel13
I've been thinking of Osborn surreptitiously stealing an egg from Gwen by bribing a doctor who treated her while she was abroad, and then using either a surrogate mother or just clone vats.
(On the previous video, I commented that I do not read comics but enjoy this show.)
Linkara: [says The Big Reveal]
Me: WHAAAAAAT
Linkara: “we should slow down and walk through each plot point before we start screaming ‘WHAAAAAAT’ at the top of our lungs”
Me: YOU’RE TOO LATE, I ALREADY STARTED
Jesus Christ what the hell were they thinking while making this? No, a better question: What the hell were they ON when were making this?
There's a simple expiation...
@@gentlemanlygeeky4088 "This is also Decade's fault!"
JMS said in interviews that he wanted to expand Gwen Stacy's character so by removing her "purity" she would be more real. At least now he admits how badly he screwed up instead of standing by it most writers would do.
Small change that could have helped: Have MJ know about Gwen and Osborn but not about the kids. She finds out about them the same time Peter did, but knows who the father would have to be. She could have kept quiet about it after Gwen died because of how much it would hurt Peter and our of respect of Gwen's memory.
I had been spoiled about Norman being the father years ago thanks to TV tropes but its nice to know the journey to the revelation is just as disturbing
The Revenge of the Sith "NOOOOOO!" also zoomed out, showing us the place erupting and compressing as he screamed.
So not the best comparison.
All I have to say right now is thank you Nick Spencer.
Thank god this story has been retconned
Ohhh.... I just imagine Peter shouting Osborn as Peter's O-face and that was not a good mental image.
Kinda glad I'm not the only one who was thinking that.
That last shot of Pete screaming “Osborn” reminds me of Barnes’ performance from the nineties cartoon. So many good lines...
3: Get back here SHOCKEER
2: You’ll pay Osborn, you’ll PAAAY
1: Mary Jane... MARY JAAANE
The second one fits with the story.
So ironically, the Cinema Snob is the only person who would be equipped to deal with this comic.
Yeah, that part of the review can be just changed to "and then they BANGED. Hard.". I mean, Brad reviewed some xxx-parodies on Spider-Man, and it's what this story line is essentially.
Is that supposed to be an insult against him?
Suddenly I'm glad Spider Gwen is a thing now, because at least now Gwen can be known for something other than dieing and we don't have to deal with crap like this (I very much hope)
I'd rather have her stay dead, and be a reminder that the hero cannot always save everyone.
@@DarsiPadilla Eh, not like she's the main universe gwen. and again its kind of nice that she's not the amazing human mcguffin now.
Linkara : What were you thinking? Were you thinking?
Me : I'll do you one better : HOW were you thinking?
Yeesh, only way Gwen's choice of lover could be worse is if she was attracted to the Red Skull.
Well, you see... The funny thing is...
chaoticjusticezero didn’t she work for a white supremacist at one point because he hated spider-man? Not to spy on him, but because she hated spidey that much? I swear I saw panels of that from a comic before her death.
@@Ombratrak132 Wait what?
@@Ombratrak132 Yeah, it was during a crossover with Ice Man if I'm remembering correctly. It was right after Captain Stacy's death and Spider-Man was forced to kidnap Gwen to protect his secret identity. The supremacist was running for mayor on an anti-superhero platform and used Gwen as a living example, which she was OK with because Spidey had (seemingly) killed her dad and (actually) kidnapped her.
@@chaoticjusticezero I feel even with context wait what is the proper reaction.
"What's the meaning of life? ...I think she said 'Skittles'?"
No no no, she said 'CUDDLES'. "Cuddlez is teh meening of life, Daddee. Can i haz?"
"Maybe Black Cat was originally supposed to be part of this storyline. It just ends up being padding."
Black Cat is many things, but NEVER padding. 😉
I'm not an expert on Gwen Stacy by ANY stretch of the imagination, but it was always my understanding that she was killed off because the writers didn't really know what to do with her. She was bookish, straight-laced... kinda boring, compared to the more fun possibilities that MJ the party-girl provided. Since watching this bit of the review is making me think of this topic I never gave any thought to before now, maybe Gwen was still a virgin just because her sex life wasn't as high a priority as other people's? It happens.
12:22 - ....Wow... Just.... wow... 😳
Re: Tommy Lee Jones - Well, it was either him, or Willem Defoe. Pick your ewww.
I'm going to file this under "Things I didn't need to know and I wish had stayed that way." Gwen banging Norman, Norman's Oz face and him wearing the mask on the second panel. My implication is that he changed into the costume for a second round and was able to talk Gwen into it.
Like Norman said "Wait, I need to put on my mask to keep it up."
Eww!
Given what Marvel did to Gwen Stacy after she died and bringing her back in utter dreck like Clone Saga and Sins Past, thank whatever higher being you believe in for the creation of Spider-Gwen/Ghost-Spider because it finally gives Gwen something different and closer to unique other than being an object or symbol to make us feel sorry for Peter Parker.
It is funny how Gwen Stacy is kind of misremembered. Looking back, there honestly wasn't much to her character outside of being nice, disliking spiderman and having a father who died. Hell, she barely appeared in the story where she died. I think more people love the idea of Gwen Stacy than the actual character. She was just a kinda bland character who wasn't used to her full potential and became the first example of women in refrigerators. As bad as the Amazing Spiderman movies turned out, I'll gladly accept it's version of Gwen over the original.
I feel sorry for Peter from a purely existential point. Every five years some hack writer derails everything and brings back plot points nobody ever wanted to see again or adds some horrific retcon. You could do a great meta- story about that ending with Peter attacking the authors for making his life a living hell and never allowing him to grow up.
@@travishimebaugh8381 And Gwen-Pool?
Battlion 50 Not part of the journey because Gwenpool is not, I repeat, NOT, Gwen Stacy.
@@SteveElOtaku I would glady get a copy of that comic!
Or...maybe a large portfolio depicting Peter Parker, in anger, beating up Joe Quesada the same way he lashed out on the original Green Goblin for the death of Gwen Stacy.
...If this comic doesn't get burnt, then there better be some good damn reason why not.
So I knew nothing about this storyline before these episodes. On paper I'm not against the idea of Gwen Stacy having sex with someone who isn't Peter if it was a one time thing considering she was college age and that's a realistic mistake that can and does happen. My problem is that one, she never told Peter and two, the fact they chose freaking Norman Osborne! Removing the fact that he was probably two or three times older than her, he was her friends father and already kind of creepy when he wasn't in the Goblin persona. I'd sooner believe she slept with Kraven the Hunter or even Paste Pot Pete! Hell, why did they even make her give birth to fully grown twins? There's no point to it! It honestly feels like these twos entire existence is there just so spiderman has someone to fight in this storyline. As if there's a rule saying there must be at least one kick and explosion per story instead of letting this information be the only conflict!
Doesn’t MJ know that Norman is the Goblin? I mean, that alone would warrant her telling Peter the truth. Oh retcons.
I've never been more inspired to write a parody script for a comic than I have right now.
Maryjane: "I'm sorry I lied to you Peter. Are you mad at me?"
Peter: "Of course not MJ." (Where's Mephisto?)
I can kinda fix the secret thing with two sentences from MJ: "I tried to track the kids down, but they told me they had died...I believed them. I guess I figured that telling you then would've been nothing but more hurt..."
Something along those line, I guess.
I've never actually groaned out loud at how awful something was until that Gwen explaining why bit. That was truly terrible writing.
Apparently all those super powered magicians and high tech folk he knows have some limitations: 1) cannot heal gunshots in old ladies, and , 2) cannot dig up remains.
Peter's pose kinda looks like the pose that people do when they are mimicking a child throwing a temper tantrum.
(Also why would Norman want to knock up Gwen, it would be a scandal, he probably would test to see if it would be the best and more importantly...
clones)
The scandal would probably be because he has two illegitimate children with a much younger woman
Y'know honestly if they really wanted to make a "Gwen Stacy shacks up with the Green Goblin" thing to give Peter angst...have it be a clone. Seriously! Miles Warren was screwing around with cloning Gwen all that time, so why not have Norman hook up with a Gwen clone? The real Gwen has no idea what's happening, but the Goblin kills her anyway to get custody of the kids. if the clones have all of Gwen's memories, it wouldn't be such an odd thing--and at the end, Peter would still have angst knowing that Gwen died for nothing. And the twins would have side-effects from Warren's cloning process. I mean, if you're going to write the worst Spider-Man story ever, why not tie it back to the Clone Saga?
That would actually be a very good approach: Clones - even though they have feelings of their own - wouldn't have the experience to tell pity from love, wouldn't have memories that'd hold the original back, and make spontaneous decisions out of overwhelming situations. With a little tweeking, it could have made sense.
I really doubt a mature, emotionally well-suited woman would actually feel sexually attracted by raw sadness, unless they deeply know and love the man in question >.
@@fermintenava5911 Especially with -why- Warren was making Gwen clones, originally, too. I mean yes, you'd have to establish that Warren was doing cloning of her even before Gobby chucked her off a bridge, but that'd be far from the most egregious retcon involved--(Warren's original motivation for hating Peter was well, Gwen's death. It wouldn't be a stretch to have him obsessed with cloning her before, though.) And especially since he was cloning Gwen because he was in love with her, that would make even more sense for the clone to have a stunted perception of pity vs love.
I was just thinking about that the other week
"Norman Osborn is the father of Gwen Stacy's children."
I'm going to do the same reaction I did when Bruce Wayne banged Batgirl in the Killing Joke film: Vomit like I'm Brian Griffin from Family Guy.
I never heard of this story before but now I’m scared. Just how bad and painful is story going to be?
Oh God this so bad and I want to yell “What the fuck were they thinking?!”.
@@laragallahue7127 Bold of you to think they WERE thinking.
ShadowL Drago Fair point
@@laragallahue7127 if you want to see a live reaction to this comic check out comic pop:sins pasts, seeing how this comic is slowly killing off tiffany soul is amazing.
Happy 600th Episode Linkara and hope Sins Past didn't ruin your sanity too much! Hope quarantine is going well for you!
Nice Comment. Hope Linkara keeps his sanity as well.
Ah, more continuity errors. They seem to forget that Norman used to have a split personality and wasn't always full 100% sinister Goblin aware of what he was doing. Yet in this retcon, he supposedly is in Goblin mode, when in the original, he quite clearly isn't, until he sees visions of Spider-Man attacking him, to which he immediately runs to his lair. So there's no way Gwen could've gone back to his apartment and had the argument while he was in Goblin mode.