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If only comments could let universes develop normally so kids could grow up normally and wouldn't need to grow so fast to make them relevant And also DC could stop resetting their universes to allow for this too
@@Fanatic_ForememOne More Day is definitely worse, because it effectively broke the series forever. Not that they haven’t tried to break it even further with stuff like Dead Language.
The Norman/Gwen part got retconned by the Sin Eater but we're probably stuck with "the Parker luck" keeping Peter permanently single and unhappy in the main 616 continuity. "Voting" for Ultimate Spider Man with our dollars may send Marvel the message they need though.
The irony of Quesada preaching that he didn’t like the idea of Peter having kids ‘out of wedlock’ but then using the literal Devil to make his idealised take on the character a few years later.
@@NoahRJitil You’re really gonna sit here and say that Avi Arad did more damage to Spider-Man’s brand than the dude behind Sins Past and One More Day? BSFFR
@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 i love JMS's work, but it seems like it wasn't JUST Quesada's meddling that created the story. I totally believe that it was a mix of corporate sticking their head where they shouldn't and JMS often retconning stuff to create new stories (like the spider totem stuff). At the end of the day, JMS is only human and is prone to make mistakes at work that he probably shouldn't have, just like the rest of us.
That segment of quoting Joe Quesada felt like watching spiderman get beat over the head with a bat constantly. I have never heard someone not understand spiderman so well till now and want the most uneasccary stuff.
Ok now imagine that but for the X-Men - that's what listening to the new editor, Tom Brevoort talk about the X-Men and especially the last 5 years of krakoan comics is like
Quesada: _"Fans wouldn't relate to Peter having kids, it would age him immediately and make him not popular"_ *New Ultimate Spider-Man becomes one of the best retellings and fans, causals and even non comic hardcore people praises a mature, older, father of two happily married to MJ Peter*
Fairly sure One More Day is more hated than Sins Past or Sins Remembered, even when Sins Past was still canon. I mean for one, Sins Past isn't canon anymore, OMD is. Secondly, even when it was, it's fairly easy to ignore because it's *almost never* brought up again and is very easy to ignore. OMD can't be ignored because its effects are present in every Spider-Man comic set in the main continuity. As for Sins Remembered, most people, aptly don't remember it even existed and it's pretty much forgotten by everyone.
I'm mean Technically it is brought up again the daughter appears in some books that I can't remember the name of and the son appears in a book after Norman Osborne becomes the director of shield and he wants Harry to be part of his bootleg Avengers but Harry's too weak and so he brings in his other son. It's bad but still happened
@@ryanmccarthy439 Like I said, it's *almost never* brought up again, and is fairly easy it ignore if you just want to pretend it never existed. One More Day can't be ignored, it's literally impossible. The only way to ignore it is to just not read anything Spider-Man related in the 616-continuity.
The best thing about One More Day is it proved that the Hulk is ridiculously resistance and really is a direct creation from the One Above All, being the only one never to forget Peter.
Yeah, I was surprised that wasn’t the comic being talked about. No one likes OMD, and it irritatingly continues to remain canon. I want Spider-girl to come back dangit
Quesada made a lot of bad decisions while he was running Marvel,the best stories during the Quesada 2000's era was the stories he had the least involvement with and where the writers had creative control.
Reminds me of those sleazeball rich guys who claimed they didn't force their victims to have sex with them and that said victims were literally asking for it.
it's politician bullshit. pinning the blame on jms for compromising with quesada's bullshit on not letting peter "age up" instead of writing an entirely different story is completely ridiculous. quesada is entirely at fault for this
The reason I hate this story is that they literally had no reason for this retcon, like one more day at the very least serves a purpose, what does this story even do?
What I think the one thing people gloss over in what this story ruins is the fact that Norman in NO WAY WOULD CALL HARRY "USELESS" IN THE ERA IT TAKES PLACE. The whole preludo to death of Gwen Stacy is based on the point that for all Norman selfishness there genuine concern for his son and one of dramatic ironies post Gwen death is the fact that Peter treated Harry as more disposable and with more apathy to his condition than Norman did. Sins Past character NUKED everyone involved, not just Gwen and Osborn character is still dead because of being denied being more than selfish monster. EDIT: YAY, Drake mentioned that.
I actually had the fortune to get the whole lot at my comic shop this month. Even though the story is a pointless retcon, Peter still felt like a grown man instead of the hot-headed dunce he is now.
You know things are dire when even in *this* story, Peter Parker still feels more well-written and in-character than he does in the vast majority of his comics from the last 15 years.
@@marvelfannumber1 Comparing JMS' Spider-Man run to Zeb Wells is night and day. I mean, Peter's character now is a dork who's in over his head and can barely function.
@@christopherb501 Honestly if Wells stopped using decompressive storytelling and had every tale condensed to one or two issues then his run might be better well regarded. It's one thing to read one dumb comic but needing to read six issues is a tall order.
You know what's interesting? If this wasn't a Spider-Man story and was something like Elektra having kids with Kingpin and making it a Daredevil story, it might have been really well received. The fact that these decisions went so against the concept of Spider-Man was what really ruined the book.
You know, this isn’t better, but Harry could have been the dad. Norman could have still been obsessed with the kids & raising them as his heirs, but it would remove him/Gwen’s gross stuff.
This is what drives me insane, because it would have made the most sense. Yeah, the story would have still been crap, but not _icky_ crap. Peter was distant while Harry was needy. Gwen could have been compelled in a moment of weakness to sleep with him. It would still have been character assassination, but not in the ridiculous levels the actual comic gets up to.
that's what I was thinking. Why is Norman Osborne number 2 on the list of characters who could've fathered Gwen Stacy's children? How does anyone think like that?
17:25 Apparently Peter failed to understand that doctor-patient confidentiality doesn't apply to visitors and that doctors have to comply with subpoenas and discovery requests. It _does_ apparently prevent a doctor from providing testimony though. Course, all this depends on jurisdiction.
The more time goes on, the more I miss apricate Nick Spencer's time on Spider-Man, and I was always a fan when it was being put out. JMS being tied Sin's Past and One More Day, with context knowing what he wanted to do, and what he didn't, made his tenure still really strong, even with Spider-Totems, Inheritors, The Other mixed in there.
Spider-totems were awesome. Sins past and OMD are obviously bad but since it was Quesada's fault I don't count those against him, and the mystical stuff he did with spider-totems and inheritors aren't a mark against him, they're a positive part of his time
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Totems are a very, very controversial part of the fandom. The reason people don't like Spider-Totems is because it goes against one of the themes of Spider-Man: "Anyone can wear the mask." Peter is no longer an ordinary person who was randomly given powers and decided to use them to do good out of his own normal heart, he was a Chosen Special One by the Spider-God and you cannot be a Spider-Man without being a special chosen(as seen with Ezekiel). If you do not have a special golden heart etc, you cannot be Spider-Man. No one can do everything Peter does, Peter has the strong willpower to do stuff because he's the chosen etc etc.
@@flerken4233 Maybe a hot take, but I've never really liked the whole anyone can wear the mask idea anyway, we've seen plenty of other characters get powers and not be as much of a hero as Peter and even do bad with their abilities, Peter is Spider-Man cause he understands the responsibility that comes with it
@@mikemorro140 That's a problem of misinterpretation. What "anyone can wear the mask" really means is that anyone has the potential to be a hero. Yeah, a lot of people do badly, but that's because of personal choice and not because there's an external force impeding them. That's the entire message: it's not your race, gender, species, upbringing, wealth or fate what makes you a hero, it's your choices. This whole thing loses all meaning when it's "revealed" you were secretly "the chosen one" all along.
Why did Quesada think people would care about Peter having sex out of Wedlock!? Who would give a shit about two college students having sex while dating?!
"...despite the fact that he jump at least 100 ft in the rain directly onto the moving truck which he clung to with his fingertips." I don't know man, sounds like an average Joe to me 🤷
15:24 working from memory, there are at least two other instances (other than Paul Stacy) where the exact scenario was played, with someone falling from the bridge and Spider-Man thinking that "he run this scenario thousands of times in his head so he won't let it happen again". One during the clone saga where he saves the Gwen Stacy Clone by swinging instead of webbing her, and one during the MK Spider-Man, saving MJ by webbing her in a bunch of places in her body, so the impact won't kill her or something. Understandable that writers would try something like this, but for anyone who has read enough Spider-Man it's very tyring.
12:50 I love how Quesada's fixation on why the story was out of his comfort zone was because of the whole "spider-man having unprotected sex out of wedlock" and not once mentioning, y'know, *the fact that this story would have spider-man attracted to one of his own illegitimate children* .
Because she looks like Gwen, the girl he’s never gotten over? It’s weird, but that happens. You could fall in love with a cousin you didn’t know was your cousin, people have done the same with siblings (the good old dad has 2 families thing) and in the context of the story it isn’t that weird. It’s not like Peter would know his relation when he thinks that, and it’s not even clear how much it’d be. He wasn’t worried about the wedlock thing and the readers, he was worried about PR, and at the time conservative rage bait was all the rage. Games are evil and that
And frankly, out of wedlock sex is a bigger deal then a dude thinking his daughter he doesn’t even know is his daughter who appears to be almost the same age as him and looks like the dead love of his life is hot. At least, for the time
11:35 Would Peter have even wanted to continue being with Gwen if he had found out about the affair before she died? Then again, that’s way too much brain power wasted on this disgusting story.
There is also a Story where Peter is apparently actually Aunt May's SON. As in one story she slept with Ben and Richard. May gets pregnant........but here's the kicker. Ben can't have kids, so the baby May had was....... Peter Parker she gave him to Richard and Mary to raise until they die
That still could be canonical to the Ultimate Universe, as Trouble was set in the UU. It never was set in the main universe, as the ages don't line up.
@@flerken4233but Aunt May was in her early 50s in that universe so that still doesn't make any sense since their age in Trouble was in the 17-19 range
The one thing that Sins Past solidified is that Green Goblin will always be Spider-Man's most personal antagonist. It's bad enough that Goblin was the first antagonist to figure out Spider-Man's identity and being able to attack him directly and indirectly and not only kill Gwen Stacy, but he assaults her taking her virginity in the process. That's so evil. It's so sad how Gwen Stacy's character was treated in this story.
_And now Ultimate Spider-Man came along and proved hiw much out of touch Joe Quesada actually was about both the character and what the fans want for Peter..._
Best of luck with Sins Rising! If possible it'd be really nice if you could shine a light on Harry's arc in JMD's Spectacular 178-200 run since despite being a landmark story, the lack of republication outside of two issues has meant it's severely overlooked, and I think that may have led to no one checking the details in the rush to backpeddle from OMD...like entire characterizations and the whole reason the story happens...
Did Joe Q know Flash existed with Wally West who dated, got married, snd had kids and it never ruined the story nor Wally's relationship with his fans? Also, would this story have been better in Peter had been the father? It would certainly be less creepy?
Imagine how funny it would be to show… let’s say the cast of Spectacular Spider-Man the panel that showed Gwen’s affair with Norman. Given that Harry guilt tripped Gwen into staying with him, he’d probably dump her on the spot. Meanwhile Captain Stacy is going to quickly shoot down a returning Norman as quick as Stan Smith gunned down Peter Griffin. Hell if we showed this to the cast of the 2017 cartoon. That show’s Harry is going to channel his inner Ryuji.
This is one instance where Wuesada had a point Imo- Peter having kids looking the Exact Same Age Range as him just seems too wild & would’ve made him appear far older to readers ( he’d need to be about 50-ish).
9:47 Here is something I always wondered. Why didn’t Norman just tell them Peter and Spidey were one and the same? They find out anyways so it doesn’t matter. Hell cut out that stuff in the rain and have them attack Peter in costume it would make moments like we can kill then whenever scarier.
Whqt makes Spiderman special is the fact that Peter is a regular dude, he has a normal family a normal job, and often struggles with his finances. It makes perfect sense for him to have made some mistakes in his personal life in the past, like having kida out of wedlock. And honestly, the only good reason for not letting Peter have kids is that he just can't afford it, as he's either a public school teacher or underpaid researcher, and also because being Spiderman doesn't allow him the time to properly raise a child.
This is one of the few times I remember going through a kind of cognitive dissonance and working through it, right at the comic book store. So I pick up the book, flip it open, and BOOM!!! First page, THE VERY FIRST PAGE I open to is Green Goblin's "O-face". It was like the world STOPPED right there for a few minutes. I remember almost every thought I had in vivid detail: "WHAT??!!?! Nooooo...." "Why?! How'd we get here??! I need to know..." "No! No I don't! What're you talking about?!" It went on like this in my head for some time. Then I had like this revelation: "You know, just because you like Spiderman, doesn't mean you gotta buy EVERYTHING that says Spiderman on it." Even though I knew that consciously, finally saying it to myself caused this weight to be lifted from my shoulders as a fan.
I don't get Quesada. Man is obviously not a complete moron, but his decisions are just the stupidest things conceivable. He actually thought making it so Peter didn't have kids was smart and the opposite was Marvel making the worst decision ever. ... In the same world where every story showing Peter Parker not even just having kids but behaving even remotely fatherly gets lauded. Maybe it's just me but every story I have ever read where Peter is either a father or takes the role of mentor or teacher, stories where he has the opportunity to pass on the experience he has gathered, stories where you can feel happy that the character has grown past the days where all he knew was suffering, loss, anxiety etc and that he is now able to help others in ways that don't require him to just put on the Spidey outfit are some of the best Spider-Man stories. They don't all have to be the same, you can still have fights and heroics, but giving the man a chance to show his growth and keep developing through some regular responsibilities like a family IS an avenue for good storytelling. It doesn't age the character, it matures them. What sort of 13-year old brainrot do you have to be on to think a guy navigating superheroics and the intricacies of adult life with a family to boot would lead to bad stories? If it does, it just means your writers are in a stump and you might want to get the editorial department to lay down on the whipping for an afternoon.
You know this story would have been slightly better if they just changed it to Gwen getting pregnant by Harry instead of Norman and Norman deciding to experimenting on his Grandkids and manipulating them into thinking Peter was their father to fuck with him.
When I was first curious about getting into mainstream comics, I picked up an issue of Amazing Spider-Man. It was #512, Sins Past Part Four. Imagine for a moment that this is the year you've seen the second Spider-Man movie released and enjoyed both of them enough to actually buy a Spider-Man comic for the first time in your life. And it's Sins Past part 4, the one with Peter imagining Norman Osborn fucking his girlfriend and Norman's O-face. It was years before I wanted to pick up another Marvel comic book.
To be fair,Goku is a bad example. Dude barely ages(partly because he is an alien,partly because he is...well dead for substantial amounts of time). If anything,Goku mentally regressed(thanks Super). JoJo would have been a better example.
Unfortunately, not soon. I have a couple more Marvel videos in the works, but I want to try to cover some other publishers. Marvel has been such a huge focus that I'm getting a little burnt out.
Drake, I have never read Sins Past and Sin Remembered, but from the plot synopsises that you gave from both, they sound really truly awful, and bad. I'm glad I have never read it. I'm mind boggled, that Joe Quesada thought it was okay to have the writer J. Michael Strazinski have it be Norman and Gwen had sex and she got pregnant resulting in fraternal twins! This is worse if Peter and Gwen had sex and she got pregnant and had even one baby. As if Peter and Gwen having sex(while they were in college mind you) would have been so horrible. They were in a relationship at least! This is sick and wrong. I just started reading Spider-Man comics few years ago when I found Back To Basics from 2018-2019 written by Nick Spencer and drawn by Ryan Ottley. I really enjoyed their run on Spider-Man, but I wasn't aware J. Michael Strazinski ever wrote any of the comics. I know he created Babylon 5 back in the 90's, but I can't fathom why this story and it's sequel exist. I'm truly offended this got written and published.
Thank you for covering this also good to see a new video! Really miss Peter as a science teacher. Ever think about doing something X-Men related? Been getting really into them lately
This was my most hated Spider-Man story for over a decade, from reading it in 2010 until it's retcon at the end of the Spencer run in 2022. OMD was more damaging to the character and brand, but Sins Past just such a gross mischaracterization of its main figure (Gwen) that it ruined things far beyond it to the point that I hated it far more. Now that it's retconned a lot of the fire is gone though. Now I just think it's a terrible story. NOW my most hated story is Sins Present aka Dead Language, where the story is such a gross mischaracterization of its main figure (Mary Jane) that it ruined things far beyond it to the point I hate it far more than even OMD. Again. Why do we have to keep trying to make Peter's love interests unfaithful?
Awesome video! I always knew about the story but not in full detail as well as the spin-offs it had. Also did you tease that you are going to talk about DK Strikes back with that pic in the beginning? That would be a fun vid!
I once had someone tell me that the surest sign of a Superman story being bad is how OOC Lois Lane is written. I think that also applies to Mary Jane in Spidey stories.
With all the good and bad stories about this guy, you think it’s an obligation to write Peter having a bad life after he gets he’s act together and begins to be happy
12:34 “There is no way on planet earth that I could let him have kids” And that, my friends, is why most Marvel writers refuse to let Spider-Man progress. Because of stupid takes like these.
I would say that One More Day is still the worst Spider-Man book with the worst, most long-lasting repercussions but yeah, Sins Past was horrible. I had no interest in reading Sins Remembered but it sounds even worse. AND this video confirms that Joe Quesada remains Spider-Man's one, true arch-nemesis.
Holy hell dude I knew abut the kids existing but all tha after with the followup.. wow. Yet another ridiculously in depth deep dive into some of the wierdest unknown history of comics. Great stuff once again.
Wow I really thought Nick Lowe was really the worst. Joe Quesada really is the worst, isn’t he? In his defense, Joe Quesada said he did it for understandable marketing reasons, while wrong in his judgement. Nick Lowe saying he doesn’t feel like Spider-Man should grow up because he doesn’t agree Peter should progress as a character makes him worse in that degree.
that rapid aging thing never made sense to me the goblin serum never turned norman into an old fucking man. Why would it make the kids grow up really really fast?
It was unrelated. There's a real syndrome that causes people to age faster, though I don't think it quite works as neatly as this, and that was always a part of the story, even when Peter was supposed to be the dad. They just happened to have it. Look Sins Past is bad.
Hey there. Here is an idea for a video topic that would be completely up your alley: Agents of Atlas. During the period between the gold and silver age (between Timely and Marvel) Atlas Comics had a few superhero-esque characters. The characters debuted as a team in "What If" in 1979 and in 2006 they brought into the main universe with miniseries. I have done a search on RUclips and there really isn't any good videos on this team.
I truly enjoy the way you delve into the history of the comic universe! Great job as usual! I actually consider sins remembered as a guilty pleasure. However I agree that both of these storylines are messy in nature and that they are definitely not good examples of true Spidey top lure! Always enjoy watching your channel!
Honestly people would still be able to connect with Spider Man regardless if he’s older or not, so it would’ve been fine if they were made to be Peter’s kids.🐱
This should just prove that Norman Osborn is pure evil and doesn’t deserve redemption but that it revealed Harry was behind all of this which proves that he is the toxic human being on the planet and Peter deserves a better friend than him.
If I had a nickel for every time a comic writer in the 2000s used a classic tale as the basis for their story, only to make major continuity errors, then I’d have THREE nickels. Which still isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it’s happened more than twice.
For anyone curious, the three tales are: • Sins Past (Gwen never took a trip to Paris. Her trip to Europe was to London, and this was shortly after her father died, NOT shortly before her own death) • Avengers Disassembled (Wanda had already went through the process of remembering her kids and coming to terms with her loss) • Batman and Son (Damian's conception is implied to involve date-rape drugs, when that wasn't originally the case. Bruce was all in on becoming a father, but Talia tricked him into believing that she’d lost the child)
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Welp, guess you need to do a video on Hal Jordan hooking up with an underage Arisia... or y'know the whole Deathstroke/Terra thing.
ruclips.net/video/0NZ0bsTQpEY/видео.htmlsi=0b8yIe2v3SqQ4v_8
@@swandive46 wh-what!?
If I had a dollar for every superbaby that "grew at an accelerated rate" in a superhero comic, I could probably afford to have kids myself.
Well its better then trapping them on an alternative dimension only to be tortured by an evil version of their father for years
They just did it to Spider-Woman 's kid, unfortunately
Wait my comment was deleted for some reason yet i still get the reply notification? What?
@@blackphoenix77 hulk, wolverin, scot,captain marvel etc
If only comments could let universes develop normally so kids could grow up normally and wouldn't need to grow so fast to make them relevant
And also DC could stop resetting their universes to allow for this too
Yeah, this or One More Day. The Norman/Gwen part is just so awful. I really find this story depressing.
feel like one more day is worse, simply because you can forget sins past happened.
Hey ComicTropes! 😃 Great to see you here!
@@Fanatic_ForememOne More Day is definitely worse, because it effectively broke the series forever.
Not that they haven’t tried to break it even further with stuff like Dead Language.
The Norman/Gwen part got retconned by the Sin Eater but we're probably stuck with "the Parker luck" keeping Peter permanently single and unhappy in the main 616 continuity. "Voting" for Ultimate Spider Man with our dollars may send Marvel the message they need though.
The irony of Quesada preaching that he didn’t like the idea of Peter having kids ‘out of wedlock’ but then using the literal Devil to make his idealised take on the character a few years later.
And now Peters literally being cuckolded in his main comic run by some guy named Paul
My main takeaway from this is that Joe Quesada is the worst thing to happen to Spider-Man.
Nick Lowe be like: hold my drink
And X-Men
Avi Arad would like a word
@@NoahRJitil You’re really gonna sit here and say that Avi Arad did more damage to Spider-Man’s brand than the dude behind Sins Past and One More Day? BSFFR
Nick Lowe & Zeb Wells really trying to outdo Quesada though.
Everyone, thank Nick Spencer for retconning this.
In Nick we trust, I guess? Well, at least in this specific field.
That's one way of saying it
Well, atleast thank him for plenty of memes of Norman banging mysterio.
HAHAHAHAHA OH MY GOD MYSTERYO
FUNNIEST SHIT STILL
Thank you, Nick
Imagine being JMS writing arguably the most acclaimed Spider-Man run of the 2000s only for this to happen.
yeah joe quesada really loved to try to ruin JMS's spidey run in increasingly absurd ways didnt he
@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 i love JMS's work, but it seems like it wasn't JUST Quesada's meddling that created the story. I totally believe that it was a mix of corporate sticking their head where they shouldn't and JMS often retconning stuff to create new stories (like the spider totem stuff). At the end of the day, JMS is only human and is prone to make mistakes at work that he probably shouldn't have, just like the rest of us.
That segment of quoting Joe Quesada felt like watching spiderman get beat over the head with a bat constantly. I have never heard someone not understand spiderman so well till now and want the most uneasccary stuff.
Ok now imagine that but for the X-Men - that's what listening to the new editor, Tom Brevoort talk about the X-Men and especially the last 5 years of krakoan comics is like
Quesada: _"Fans wouldn't relate to Peter having kids, it would age him immediately and make him not popular"_
*New Ultimate Spider-Man becomes one of the best retellings and fans, causals and even non comic hardcore people praises a mature, older, father of two happily married to MJ Peter*
That's because Quesada and a lot of other writers and fans are still blinded by Nostalgia *Cough Krakoa Haters*
Hell yeah it is!
@@ashtonchane6126 so you agree with me
Sometimes you have to wonder: are the heads of Marvel trying to be funny or are they stupid
@@K1ng1995 Yup!
Fairly sure One More Day is more hated than Sins Past or Sins Remembered, even when Sins Past was still canon. I mean for one, Sins Past isn't canon anymore, OMD is. Secondly, even when it was, it's fairly easy to ignore because it's *almost never* brought up again and is very easy to ignore. OMD can't be ignored because its effects are present in every Spider-Man comic set in the main continuity. As for Sins Remembered, most people, aptly don't remember it even existed and it's pretty much forgotten by everyone.
I'm mean Technically it is brought up again the daughter appears in some books that I can't remember the name of and the son appears in a book after Norman Osborne becomes the director of shield and he wants Harry to be part of his bootleg Avengers but Harry's too weak and so he brings in his other son. It's bad but still happened
@@ryanmccarthy439
Like I said, it's *almost never* brought up again, and is fairly easy it ignore if you just want to pretend it never existed.
One More Day can't be ignored, it's literally impossible. The only way to ignore it is to just not read anything Spider-Man related in the 616-continuity.
@@marvelfannumber1Or just read anything before OMD( almost any Spider-Man story before 2007 basically).
The best thing about One More Day is it proved that the Hulk is ridiculously resistance and really is a direct creation from the One Above All, being the only one never to forget Peter.
Yeah, I was surprised that wasn’t the comic being talked about. No one likes OMD, and it irritatingly continues to remain canon. I want Spider-girl to come back dangit
Tbh Quesada's statement that he didn't "force" JMS to make Norman the father reeks of him just washing his hands of responsibility.
Quesada made a lot of bad decisions while he was running Marvel,the best stories during the Quesada 2000's era was the stories he had the least involvement with and where the writers had creative control.
Reminds me of those sleazeball rich guys who claimed they didn't force their victims to have sex with them and that said victims were literally asking for it.
it's politician bullshit. pinning the blame on jms for compromising with quesada's bullshit on not letting peter "age up" instead of writing an entirely different story is completely ridiculous. quesada is entirely at fault for this
The worst comics aren’t just bad, but actively damage classic stories in retrospect. I still think that one more day is worst, but it’s close.
Ain't that right, Identity Crisis?
NORMAN UNDENIABLY BANGED MYSTERIO IN A BLONDE WIG
Are the children also Mysterio?
@@lucjan1897 they are clones
@@lucjan1897 Spencer don't care about them
Did Mysterio wear the wig over his fish ball helmet.
@@averynormalacount2887 "the Helmet stays on, norman"
The reason I hate this story is that they literally had no reason for this retcon, like one more day at the very least serves a purpose, what does this story even do?
Exactly. One More Day sucks, but it served a purpose that at least set up new stories. Sins Past was just completely unnecessary.
I makes you want a refund
I guess it was meant to get readers' attention like "WHAT? GWEN AND PETER HAD KIDS? I GOTTA BUY THIS TO FIND OUT MORE" or something like that.
One More Day didn't serve a purpose, Peter and MJ could of stayed married.
@@justinarzola4584 I never said it served a GOOD purpose.
What I think the one thing people gloss over in what this story ruins is the fact that Norman in NO WAY WOULD CALL HARRY "USELESS" IN THE ERA IT TAKES PLACE. The whole preludo to death of Gwen Stacy is based on the point that for all Norman selfishness there genuine concern for his son and one of dramatic ironies post Gwen death is the fact that Peter treated Harry as more disposable and with more apathy to his condition than Norman did. Sins Past character NUKED everyone involved, not just Gwen and Osborn character is still dead because of being denied being more than selfish monster.
EDIT: YAY, Drake mentioned that.
its a big problem with Norman Post-Clone Saga characterization, they turned into him into this cliche amoral convoluted mastermind villain.
That panel of Norman's sex face is possibly the most cursed panel in comic book history. No one ever needed to see that.
I actually had the fortune to get the whole lot at my comic shop this month. Even though the story is a pointless retcon, Peter still felt like a grown man instead of the hot-headed dunce he is now.
You know things are dire when even in *this* story, Peter Parker still feels more well-written and in-character than he does in the vast majority of his comics from the last 15 years.
@@marvelfannumber1 Comparing JMS' Spider-Man run to Zeb Wells is night and day. I mean, Peter's character now is a dork who's in over his head and can barely function.
@@wdcain1 Zeb Wells is a thoughtless hack.
@@christopherb501 Honestly if Wells stopped using decompressive storytelling and had every tale condensed to one or two issues then his run might be better well regarded. It's one thing to read one dumb comic but needing to read six issues is a tall order.
@@wdcain1 So basically Wells has devolved Peter back to his 1960s high school self.
"Most Hated Spiderman Comic"
Wait this isn't One More Day
You know what's interesting? If this wasn't a Spider-Man story and was something like Elektra having kids with Kingpin and making it a Daredevil story, it might have been really well received. The fact that these decisions went so against the concept of Spider-Man was what really ruined the book.
Yeah, I think drama works for Spider-man, but this is the equivalent of cutting a healed scar and put salt in it
No, that idea sounds awful, too.
@@maxburrill6192they’d have to replace that Norman panel with Kingpin, and that’s not better at all
Jill Stacey ran for the hills when she realized everyone that gets near Peter Parker is freaking cursed!
You know, this isn’t better, but Harry could have been the dad. Norman could have still been obsessed with the kids & raising them as his heirs, but it would remove him/Gwen’s gross stuff.
I think it would have been more believable that Gwen would sleep with Harry Osborn more than Norman.
This is what drives me insane, because it would have made the most sense. Yeah, the story would have still been crap, but not _icky_ crap. Peter was distant while Harry was needy. Gwen could have been compelled in a moment of weakness to sleep with him. It would still have been character assassination, but not in the ridiculous levels the actual comic gets up to.
that's what I was thinking. Why is Norman Osborne number 2 on the list of characters who could've fathered Gwen Stacy's children? How does anyone think like that?
Still would’ve shown us the green goblins ohh face
@@chaosbringer82 Honestly just sounds like the guy's own fantasy. Old man + young girl, or whatever.
17:25 Apparently Peter failed to understand that doctor-patient confidentiality doesn't apply to visitors and that doctors have to comply with subpoenas and discovery requests. It _does_ apparently prevent a doctor from providing testimony though. Course, all this depends on jurisdiction.
Leave it to Spider-Man to have some of the best and worst stories told in comic books.
I'd love to see Sony try to adapt this story.
That last part is like asking for Marvel to undo One More Day, it's never gonna happen because they hate us.
If they truly hate us, they'll adapt this into Sony's filmography.
@@DiamondBatToons Sony wouldn't turn a hated comic book into a movie because they hate us?
@@CaptainCat101 honestly knowing sony i wouldn't be surprise if they adapt this storyline into a movie.
@@DiamondBatToonsThat sentence didn't make any sense lmao
The more time goes on, the more I miss apricate Nick Spencer's time on Spider-Man, and I was always a fan when it was being put out. JMS being tied Sin's Past and One More Day, with context knowing what he wanted to do, and what he didn't, made his tenure still really strong, even with Spider-Totems, Inheritors, The Other mixed in there.
It sucks Spencer's run wasn't respected by the subsequent writers and now we have the current run.
Spider-totems were awesome. Sins past and OMD are obviously bad but since it was Quesada's fault I don't count those against him, and the mystical stuff he did with spider-totems and inheritors aren't a mark against him, they're a positive part of his time
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 Totems are a very, very controversial part of the fandom. The reason people don't like Spider-Totems is because it goes against one of the themes of Spider-Man: "Anyone can wear the mask."
Peter is no longer an ordinary person who was randomly given powers and decided to use them to do good out of his own normal heart, he was a Chosen Special One by the Spider-God and you cannot be a Spider-Man without being a special chosen(as seen with Ezekiel). If you do not have a special golden heart etc, you cannot be Spider-Man. No one can do everything Peter does, Peter has the strong willpower to do stuff because he's the chosen etc etc.
@@flerken4233
Maybe a hot take, but I've never really liked the whole anyone can wear the mask idea anyway, we've seen plenty of other characters get powers and not be as much of a hero as Peter and even do bad with their abilities, Peter is Spider-Man cause he understands the responsibility that comes with it
@@mikemorro140 That's a problem of misinterpretation. What "anyone can wear the mask" really means is that anyone has the potential to be a hero. Yeah, a lot of people do badly, but that's because of personal choice and not because there's an external force impeding them. That's the entire message: it's not your race, gender, species, upbringing, wealth or fate what makes you a hero, it's your choices. This whole thing loses all meaning when it's "revealed" you were secretly "the chosen one" all along.
Imagine that Quesada said that Peter having kids is a mistake, And the new Ultimate Universe has Peter having Twins, and looking old
Why did Quesada think people would care about Peter having sex out of Wedlock!?
Who would give a shit about two college students having sex while dating?!
Conservative religious people.
Dude it was the year 2000, back then it was harder to get away with that stuff. Today, you can just make Pete black and use that as a defense lmao
"Comic books are weird, people!" - Linkara
And sometimes confusing
@@comixproviderftw_02 To say the least!
@@The_Acolyte_of_Spider-Man Yep!
@@The_Acolyte_of_Spider-Man Thanks
"...despite the fact that he jump at least 100 ft in the rain directly onto the moving truck which he clung to with his fingertips."
I don't know man, sounds like an average Joe to me 🤷
15:24 working from memory, there are at least two other instances (other than Paul Stacy) where the exact scenario was played, with someone falling from the bridge and Spider-Man thinking that "he run this scenario thousands of times in his head so he won't let it happen again". One during the clone saga where he saves the Gwen Stacy Clone by swinging instead of webbing her, and one during the MK Spider-Man, saving MJ by webbing her in a bunch of places in her body, so the impact won't kill her or something. Understandable that writers would try something like this, but for anyone who has read enough Spider-Man it's very tyring.
12:50
I love how Quesada's fixation on why the story was out of his comfort zone was because of the whole "spider-man having unprotected sex out of wedlock" and not once mentioning, y'know, *the fact that this story would have spider-man attracted to one of his own illegitimate children* .
Because she looks like Gwen, the girl he’s never gotten over? It’s weird, but that happens. You could fall in love with a cousin you didn’t know was your cousin, people have done the same with siblings (the good old dad has 2 families thing) and in the context of the story it isn’t that weird. It’s not like Peter would know his relation when he thinks that, and it’s not even clear how much it’d be. He wasn’t worried about the wedlock thing and the readers, he was worried about PR, and at the time conservative rage bait was all the rage. Games are evil and that
And frankly, out of wedlock sex is a bigger deal then a dude thinking his daughter he doesn’t even know is his daughter who appears to be almost the same age as him and looks like the dead love of his life is hot. At least, for the time
11:35 Would Peter have even wanted to continue being with Gwen if he had found out about the affair before she died? Then again, that’s way too much brain power wasted on this disgusting story.
It is more painful if you're a big Spidey fan or even worse if you are a big fan of Spider-Man blue but well it's been retconed
I loved Spider Man Blue so much as a kid. I reread it recently and it's still so good and timeless.
Spider-Man Blue is awful. I'm glad it was retconned. Now we just need The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man to get retconned and the world will be just.
@@thegoodwitchluzura goddamn this is a nuclear take
There is also a Story where Peter is apparently actually Aunt May's SON.
As in one story she slept with Ben and Richard. May gets pregnant........but here's the kicker. Ben can't have kids, so the baby May had was....... Peter Parker she gave him to Richard and Mary to raise until they die
Yeah, but that was thrown out right away.
There's a reason nobody cares to remember Trouble.
And it's, yet again, all because of Joe Quesada.
That still could be canonical to the Ultimate Universe, as Trouble was set in the UU. It never was set in the main universe, as the ages don't line up.
@@flerken4233but Aunt May was in her early 50s in that universe so that still doesn't make any sense since their age in Trouble was in the 17-19 range
5:00 Peter, clinging to the side of the truck as he makes his getaway: "NO-ONE WILL *EVER KNOW*!!!"
5:10 "I'm pretty sure I did a good job keeping my identity a secret"
proceeds to do ridiculously high jumps and flips
The one thing that Sins Past solidified is that Green Goblin will always be Spider-Man's most personal antagonist. It's bad enough that Goblin was the first antagonist to figure out Spider-Man's identity and being able to attack him directly and indirectly and not only kill Gwen Stacy, but he assaults her taking her virginity in the process. That's so evil. It's so sad how Gwen Stacy's character was treated in this story.
The fact that Quesada concern was that it was out of WEDLOCK and not that it was INCEST is so messed up.
Fun fact, it was later retconned Gabriel and Sarah were like, artificial beings created by Harry to get revenge on Peter and his dad
Yes, that is what the end of the video says lol
Yeah, I commented that before I got to the end. Comics are WEIRD@@ComicDrake
'The most hated Spider-Man comic, no, not that one."
One of the most hated Spider-Man comic, that is...
What I expected from this video: A bad story by a good writer.
What I got from this video: That, _as well as_ a bonus _bad_ story by a _bad_ writer!
I dunno, even after Spencer fixed this I think OMD and BND are the kings of this particular crap mountain.
‘Sin’s Past’ reminds me of SML’s ‘Rich Joseph’ where it devalues and retcons everything that made a popular character iconic
_And now Ultimate Spider-Man came along and proved hiw much out of touch Joe Quesada actually was about both the character and what the fans want for Peter..._
Green goblins oh face had me dead 14:30
Best of luck with Sins Rising! If possible it'd be really nice if you could shine a light on Harry's arc in JMD's Spectacular 178-200 run since despite being a landmark story, the lack of republication outside of two issues has meant it's severely overlooked, and I think that may have led to no one checking the details in the rush to backpeddle from OMD...like entire characterizations and the whole reason the story happens...
Did Joe Q know Flash existed with Wally West who dated, got married, snd had kids and it never ruined the story nor Wally's relationship with his fans?
Also, would this story have been better in Peter had been the father? It would certainly be less creepy?
He’d probably just claim that this is why DC Comics will be forever inferior to Marvel Comics.
Imagine how funny it would be to show… let’s say the cast of Spectacular Spider-Man the panel that showed Gwen’s affair with Norman.
Given that Harry guilt tripped Gwen into staying with him, he’d probably dump her on the spot. Meanwhile Captain Stacy is going to quickly shoot down a returning Norman as quick as Stan Smith gunned down Peter Griffin.
Hell if we showed this to the cast of the 2017 cartoon. That show’s Harry is going to channel his inner Ryuji.
I never knew it was THIS BAD
This is one instance where Wuesada had a point Imo- Peter having kids looking the Exact Same Age Range as him just seems too wild & would’ve made him appear far older to readers ( he’d need to be about 50-ish).
I'm very much only on the edge of comic discussions, but I would've assumed the title of "Most hated Spider-Man comic" would've been One More Day
"The devil did it," and "it was Normon Osborn" are the worst plot twists that continue to plague Spiderman
wait, if MJ knew about Gwen's affair how would the retcon in Sins Rising be possible? I guess that's gonna come up in part 2
Mysterio hypnotised MJ to think that the story of the affair was true.
9:47 Here is something I always wondered. Why didn’t Norman just tell them Peter and Spidey were one and the same? They find out anyways so it doesn’t matter.
Hell cut out that stuff in the rain and have them attack Peter in costume it would make moments like we can kill then whenever scarier.
Whqt makes Spiderman special is the fact that Peter is a regular dude, he has a normal family a normal job, and often struggles with his finances. It makes perfect sense for him to have made some mistakes in his personal life in the past, like having kida out of wedlock. And honestly, the only good reason for not letting Peter have kids is that he just can't afford it, as he's either a public school teacher or underpaid researcher, and also because being Spiderman doesn't allow him the time to properly raise a child.
Sins past doesn’t exist, it never did, and if it’s ever brought up again, it wasn’t
This is one of the few times I remember going through a kind of cognitive dissonance and working through it, right at the comic book store. So I pick up the book, flip it open, and BOOM!!! First page, THE VERY FIRST PAGE I open to is Green Goblin's "O-face". It was like the world STOPPED right there for a few minutes. I remember almost every thought I had in vivid detail:
"WHAT??!!?! Nooooo...."
"Why?! How'd we get here??! I need to know..."
"No! No I don't! What're you talking about?!"
It went on like this in my head for some time. Then I had like this revelation: "You know, just because you like Spiderman, doesn't mean you gotta buy EVERYTHING that says Spiderman on it." Even though I knew that consciously, finally saying it to myself caused this weight to be lifted from my shoulders as a fan.
I don't get Quesada. Man is obviously not a complete moron, but his decisions are just the stupidest things conceivable.
He actually thought making it so Peter didn't have kids was smart and the opposite was Marvel making the worst decision ever.
... In the same world where every story showing Peter Parker not even just having kids but behaving even remotely fatherly gets lauded.
Maybe it's just me but every story I have ever read where Peter is either a father or takes the role of mentor or teacher, stories where he has the opportunity to pass on the experience he has gathered, stories where you can feel happy that the character has grown past the days where all he knew was suffering, loss, anxiety etc and that he is now able to help others in ways that don't require him to just put on the Spidey outfit are some of the best Spider-Man stories. They don't all have to be the same, you can still have fights and heroics, but giving the man a chance to show his growth and keep developing through some regular responsibilities like a family IS an avenue for good storytelling. It doesn't age the character, it matures them.
What sort of 13-year old brainrot do you have to be on to think a guy navigating superheroics and the intricacies of adult life with a family to boot would lead to bad stories? If it does, it just means your writers are in a stump and you might want to get the editorial department to lay down on the whipping for an afternoon.
I like videos like this. The creative, or non-creative corporate greed behind the decisions on what we end up reading is always interesting.
You know this story would have been slightly better if they just changed it to Gwen getting pregnant by Harry instead of Norman and Norman deciding to experimenting on his Grandkids and manipulating them into thinking Peter was their father to fuck with him.
When I was first curious about getting into mainstream comics, I picked up an issue of Amazing Spider-Man.
It was #512, Sins Past Part Four.
Imagine for a moment that this is the year you've seen the second Spider-Man movie released and enjoyed both of them enough to actually buy a Spider-Man comic for the first time in your life.
And it's Sins Past part 4, the one with Peter imagining Norman Osborn fucking his girlfriend and Norman's O-face.
It was years before I wanted to pick up another Marvel comic book.
"Fans wouldnt like it if their hero got old!"
Meanwhile Goku is a grand father and fans still love him
To be fair,Goku is a bad example.
Dude barely ages(partly because he is an alien,partly because he is...well dead for substantial amounts of time).
If anything,Goku mentally regressed(thanks Super).
JoJo would have been a better example.
I'm really hoping we get a part 2 to this video soon
Unfortunately, not soon. I have a couple more Marvel videos in the works, but I want to try to cover some other publishers. Marvel has been such a huge focus that I'm getting a little burnt out.
@@ComicDrake That makes sense! I wish you the best of luck on the next few videos! You'll get to it when you can
New camera? looks smooth! also great video Drake! We need more invincible content.
22:05 So like BNHA's quirk-destroying drug bullets?
Drake, I have never read Sins Past and Sin Remembered, but from the plot synopsises that you gave from both, they sound really truly awful, and bad. I'm glad I have never read it. I'm mind boggled, that Joe Quesada thought it was okay to have the writer J. Michael Strazinski have it be Norman and Gwen had sex and she got pregnant resulting in fraternal twins! This is worse if Peter and Gwen had sex and she got pregnant and had even one baby. As if Peter and Gwen having sex(while they were in college mind you) would have been so horrible. They were in a relationship at least! This is sick and wrong. I just started reading Spider-Man comics few years ago when I found Back To Basics from 2018-2019 written by Nick Spencer and drawn by Ryan Ottley. I really enjoyed their run on Spider-Man, but I wasn't aware J. Michael Strazinski ever wrote any of the comics. I know he created Babylon 5 back in the 90's, but I can't fathom why this story and it's sequel exist. I'm truly offended this got written and published.
Thank you for covering this also good to see a new video! Really miss Peter as a science teacher.
Ever think about doing something X-Men related? Been getting really into them lately
This was my most hated Spider-Man story for over a decade, from reading it in 2010 until it's retcon at the end of the Spencer run in 2022. OMD was more damaging to the character and brand, but Sins Past just such a gross mischaracterization of its main figure (Gwen) that it ruined things far beyond it to the point that I hated it far more. Now that it's retconned a lot of the fire is gone though. Now I just think it's a terrible story.
NOW my most hated story is Sins Present aka Dead Language, where the story is such a gross mischaracterization of its main figure (Mary Jane) that it ruined things far beyond it to the point I hate it far more than even OMD. Again. Why do we have to keep trying to make Peter's love interests unfaithful?
Awesome video! I always knew about the story but not in full detail as well as the spin-offs it had. Also did you tease that you are going to talk about DK Strikes back with that pic in the beginning? That would be a fun vid!
I just learned that JMS's first name is Joseph
I once had someone tell me that the surest sign of a Superman story being bad is how OOC Lois Lane is written. I think that also applies to Mary Jane in Spidey stories.
With all the good and bad stories about this guy, you think it’s an obligation to write Peter having a bad life after he gets he’s act together and begins to be happy
I’m happy to see you back.
I hope you can continue this by going over the Kindred saga one day
At least J. Michael Straczynski completely redeemed himself with the 2000's Thor run and being a co-writer for the first Thor screenplay in 2011.
12:34 “There is no way on planet earth that I could let him have kids”
And that, my friends, is why most Marvel writers refuse to let Spider-Man progress. Because of stupid takes like these.
19:12 “SpongeBob! :)”
“Donkey!”
2:39 I want to see those things get adapted into a faithful animated series
16:14 the art is really cool but if you told me the story behind it I'd be like "...... What?"
I would say that One More Day is still the worst Spider-Man book with the worst, most long-lasting repercussions but yeah, Sins Past was horrible. I had no interest in reading Sins Remembered but it sounds even worse. AND this video confirms that Joe Quesada remains Spider-Man's one, true arch-nemesis.
You know it’s a bad comic when Spider-man threatening a cop’s family is barely even noteworthy
Holy hell dude I knew abut the kids existing but all tha after with the followup.. wow. Yet another ridiculously in depth deep dive into some of the wierdest unknown history of comics. Great stuff once again.
Wow I really thought Nick Lowe was really the worst. Joe Quesada really is the worst, isn’t he?
In his defense, Joe Quesada said he did it for understandable marketing reasons, while wrong in his judgement. Nick Lowe saying he doesn’t feel like Spider-Man should grow up because he doesn’t agree Peter should progress as a character makes him worse in that degree.
Dude what is this avengers endgame? YOU KNOW ALEX LENNON?!?
We need Nick Spencer one more time like the return of the Avatar that brings balance to the world and retcon Zeb Wells’ character assassination on MJ.
I’m staring at the image of Quesada and Norman and I can’t help but think that they look so fucking similar
Quesada looking at a best selling book: "Oh no, it won't sell"
Bro forgot one more day
that rapid aging thing never made sense to me
the goblin serum never turned norman into an old fucking man. Why would it make the kids grow up really really fast?
It was unrelated. There's a real syndrome that causes people to age faster, though I don't think it quite works as neatly as this, and that was always a part of the story, even when Peter was supposed to be the dad. They just happened to have it.
Look Sins Past is bad.
Hey there. Here is an idea for a video topic that would be completely up your alley: Agents of Atlas. During the period between the gold and silver age (between Timely and Marvel) Atlas Comics had a few superhero-esque characters. The characters debuted as a team in "What If" in 1979 and in 2006 they brought into the main universe with miniseries. I have done a search on RUclips and there really isn't any good videos on this team.
00:12 "Generic white guy with glasses"
Yeah, but you are OUR generic white guy with glasses
I truly enjoy the way you delve into the history of the comic universe! Great job as usual! I actually consider sins remembered as a guilty pleasure. However I agree that both of these storylines are messy in nature and that they are definitely not good examples of true Spidey top lure! Always enjoy watching your channel!
I'm so happy Nick Spencer retconned this in his Spider-Man comics
Honestly people would still be able to connect with Spider Man regardless if he’s older or not, so it would’ve been fine if they were made to be Peter’s kids.🐱
"Connection" isn't the issue.
This should just prove that Norman Osborn is pure evil and doesn’t deserve redemption but that it revealed Harry was behind all of this which proves that he is the toxic human being on the planet and Peter deserves a better friend than him.
Ironically the only Norman that got a proper redemption was the one from the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon.
@@uncannydcmarvelous5732which he also doesn’t deserve
No one deserves redemption.
When Spider-Man editorial squeezing the blood out of every stone they find
Welcome back king. You've been missed
If I had a nickel for every time a comic writer in the 2000s used a classic tale as the basis for their story, only to make major continuity errors, then I’d have THREE nickels.
Which still isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it’s happened more than twice.
For anyone curious, the three tales are:
• Sins Past (Gwen never took a trip to Paris. Her trip to Europe was to London, and this was shortly after her father died, NOT shortly before her own death)
• Avengers Disassembled (Wanda had already went through the process of remembering her kids and coming to terms with her loss)
• Batman and Son (Damian's conception is implied to involve date-rape drugs, when that wasn't originally the case. Bruce was all in on becoming a father, but Talia tricked him into believing that she’d lost the child)
this video aged so amazingly with the advent of all the Spider-Verse movies
I'm having ptsd of this comic run on all the negative stuff.
Just another comic Marvel tries to forget happened...