SECRET Downswing Move To Shallow The Club (DOORKNOB TURN)
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- Опубликовано: 20 июл 2024
- I've been getting a lot of questions about this "secret" forearm/wrist move in the early stages of the downswing. Let's dive in!
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I've coined this "turning the doorknob." So here's a video where Henry and I break down this action and how it can help you shallow out the golf club to get the center of mass back behind you. Hope you enjoy!
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Mike Austin advocated this.
The last part was the best part. Yes it does just happen when you swing with a proper grip and turn. Way overblown on golf sites recently which is doing more harm than good. Milo makes a good point about feel and how it’s different for each player; this is the teachers challenge. This is why I’ve said many times that the dirt is where you find it but a little guidance doesn’t hurt. lol
Hopefully we wrapped it up well in tying back in the pivot and that this can of hopefully does happen naturally. Thanks for watching Nelson!
Love this Milo, it's something I talk about a lot to golfers. I like the explanation about maintaining the wrist angles because this is the part most often missed by golfers. 100% correct, some golfers will have to work more on training the hands individually before allowing the pivot/transition to naturally get the club to shallow. Cheers
Glad you enjoyed it Troy, thanks for following along and best to you in Australia!
@@MiloLinesGolf Appreciate it Milo
Great stuff Milo. I have followed Clements, Ballard, Corgono and Malaska over the years. Your instruction is in a class by itself, makes so much sense, and has become my go to. Golf is difficult but has (is) getting easier because of your instruction. Thanks!!
Thanks for following along Steve!
🎯 I couldn't agree more
great explanation..especially when you said turn the doorknob in combination of keeping the "extension in the trail wrist" ...to me that is the key...
You got it Grant, thanks for watching!
This made a lot of sense and I’ve currently been really struggling with this concept in my head lately so thank you very much!!
Glad it was helpful! If we can be of any more help, be sure to check out our online academy at milolinesgolf.com. Thanks for watching.
Beautifully demonstrated and executed gents! This was my missing piece in downswing. I would lower arms but had internal arm rotation in downswing and pull/ pull hook, I stored that I thought but still pulled until I did this little twist at beginning of downswing and didn't internally slap wrist at the ball. Hand/ wrist was going forward and not rotating clockwise as you demonstrated. Huge miss I think for people working on transition and lag and getting arm in position only to have hand and wrist not turning correctly. Awesome job guys and big thanks!
It's like the wall drill and keeping the club head on the wall behind you for the first part of the transition. Turning the door knob is a perfect feeling! Great feeling!! Thanks for sharing.
You got it! Thanks for watching.
Thanks Milo been watching your tips for a while now and I'm gaining distance and accuracy off the tee thank u so much my handicap has come down from 15 to 8 since I been practicing your tips in my net much respect from Australia 👍👍👍👍👍😎
Great to hear, thanks for following along! Are you a member of our site as well? milolinesgolf.com
This video greatly helped me. I’m scratch, but I have struggled to feel a true shallow move. This concept & thought very much resonated with me. I’ve implemented this feel & it has truly helped. I had my lowest round of the year yesterday. Thank you!
Wonderful, Sean! If we can help any further, please reach us at milolinesgolf.com 👍
You guys team very well; excellent back and forth discussion and demonstration.
Thank you!
Milo this may be the gem I needed. Been spending a long time trying to get shallow EARLY. I can do it in my slow swings pretty well, but full speed I tug on the club and get shallow late and flip + early extend and all that good stuff. It was frustrating knowing WHERE I needed to get to do in transition, but not having a feel that could reliably get me there. This did it for me. Bowing the lead wrist, throwing the trail elbow at the ball were feels that worked great for me in slow and partial swings, but this has me shallow properly with all swings. Can finally rotate and rip through.
Great to hear Dominic, let me know if I can be of further help!
This is a great video. Finally after all these years, I'm unleashing some effortless power in my swing. A really great explanation put in such an easy to understand way and remember. A big thank you to you
Thanks so much and glad to hear it helped!
@@MiloLinesGolf hear or read 😵💫?
I have a confession Milo, i never really understood this and ive watched this video probably close to 50 times. It just never felt natural. I happened upon a Monte Scheinblum video about 'no cast turn' and went down the rabbit hole. Tried it at the driving range and its completely changed my swing and impact position and best of all, this move now feels natural. Which has brought me full circle back to this video where i can now finally say, you're a genius Milo! I have to feel like i initiate my swing with this move, but this helps ball flight consistency like crazy. I can actually hit controlled fades and draws 90% of the time now 😳
Glad it's working out for you!
Good use of correct anatomical terms. Very helpful to this newbie golfer.
Thanks for watching
Milo, you're a wonderful teacher. Thank you.
Thanks Michael!
Great video guys. In order to keep club square would you ever think about it like turning the door knob while bowing your left wrist. Or alternatively bowing left wrist in takeaway/backswing leaving you in a good position to turn doorknob right (supinate) without fear of an open face?
Very good explanation of how to shallow without opening the club face . I’ve been struggling with this for a long time . Thanks !
Glad it was helpful!
I’m training this right now and it’s sickkkk. Pushing the lead hip back helps as well… but this move is what is getting a 7 iron to 45-50 degrees (when lead arm parallel to ground). Obviously, all this is a means to an end, the end being low dynamic loft (shaft lean) and a low and left release. If you don’t intend on doing those things then don’t bother, you’ll end up extending trail hip to re-steepen the shaft or have one weird release.
This is a gamer changer. Totally changed my golf swing. Great stuff!
Excellent, thanks for watching David!
This drill has absolutely transformed my ball striking in about 3 days time. I’ve hit about 600 balls doing this so far. 2 things i’ve gained from this that I’m really enjoying: 1) Big increase in compression, and more often/consistent and 2) My body now wants to turn hard through the ball. I’m a 6 hdcp that struggles with getting over the top and this drill has been awesome! Gonna be chilly…bit looking forward to the first tournament of the year next Saturday having done work with this drill this week.
Great to hear! Let us know if we can be of further help. milolinesgolf.com
@@MiloLinesGolf a great topic for a video to build on this one would be some discussion of how to slow the transition for those of us moving from a steep to shallow downswing. In my time working on this, the one thing I've noticed is when I revert back to my old tendencies of being steep, it always corresponds to going too quick in transition (or at least that's my perception). The end results is going back to the chunks/thins problem like before the changes. It also seems to mostly happen with the short irons. I'm guessing it's just naturally harder mentally to shallow the short irons since they are designed to be swung more upright.
This is how a tennis forehand works. Great notes Coach Milo!
Thanks Neal!
"That (naturally) gets the right elbow in front." Great point Henry! That sensation has helped me to learn this move correctly.
You got it 👊
Great questions by Henry.
Thanks Jim, he keeps me on my toes haha.
Well described with examples and great explanation!
Many thanks!
Hi Milo, Just started bingeing on your vids and loving the content. I have some back and knee issues from too much rugby in my youth, so being as dynamic as I used to be is tough. But following your stuff has helped a lot in getting some athleticism back without pain. Tried this doorknob technique yesterday and the ball striking was fantastic...maybe a little pull hook with the driver, so I am looking at your other vids to counter act that at the next range session...but i went from 125 yards with a PW to 140, just using this one drill with a more athletic pivot. Will try to take it to the course next week. Is this move similar as looking at it from the other way where you could say the left hand is twisting as if decelerating a motorbike throttle? The two seem to go hand in hand if you pardon the pun. Thanks Milo. Happy New Year!
Depending on your left hand grip yes
I struggled with this move until i sped my backswing up, this relaxed my wrists and it was a natural outcome. It feels like a whip action and takes the arms out of the swing.
👍
Hi,
great video, I struggle with defending the left side of the golf courses pulls and hooks ...i mean squirrel killers...anyways looks like you are trying to line up the club with the angle right forearm there is just a small spot there where it is effotles swing
Love all your videos. But how can I keep my wrists soft without losing extention? Thx for a short answer & further videos
Maybe hit a few short shots with just your trail arm so you can feel that the tension needs to be a bit softer to allow the club to fall behind. Focus on the pivot returning the club and feel the weight of the club. Too much tension will prohibit the club from doing so.
Great lesson guys!
Glad you enjoyed it Richard, thanks!
Nice stuff. Especially relevant when Henry showed is lower half moving as the door was being closed. The people you talk about standing the club up are typically upper body swingers and not ground up swingers!
Getting the pivot to make this happen is ideal. Thanks for watching!
Milo, I just started working your swing thoughts over the last few weeks with some decent success especially when I do it slowly. It goes sideways when I try to add speed, but it is nice seeing a different swing move then what I had. Now, would you suggest I put this supination move on hold till I am more consistent with the basics or is this something to immediately start working on? Becoming a member of your web site is going to be an early Christmas Present to myself. I look forward to working with you and your staff. Btw, your office has to be one of the most beautiful offices I have ever seen. 👍
I think joining the site and focusing on our foundation pieces is a great start then I'll get a chance to see your swing.
Great videos, thanks for them. So when you turn the handle are you effectively also moving from radial to ulnar in the right wrist? Thanks.
Not really it’s supination of the trail forearm. The wrist graphs don’t generally show movement towards ulnar until later in the downswing
@@MiloLinesGolf Thanks
Awesome ! In the take away as you turn do you raise your arms ? Or is the take away pivot should naturally position your arms ?
Your trail elbow and wrist fold which elevates your arms some amount
Hi Milo, really appreciate the video, hope you are still reading the questions, I am following your instruction, however, I am getting a very sore right elbow on the inside, just looking it up it is the Medial Epicondyle. Am I doing the move wrong, I am feeling the weight of the club after back swing then leading with the right elbow/forearm to get it in front or near front and then with the weight of the club falling body pivoting and then releasing? i would value your opinion why my elbow could be getting sore? thanks
I’d have to see but sounds like you’re trying to externally rotate your shoulder and drive your elbow too much.
Great video. Do you think that in addition to the trail forearm supinating while the trail wrist stays in flexion that t he trail wrist is also going into ulnar deviation? It seems that the feeling might be even more than turning a doorknob- it's like turning a key in a lock as ulnar deviation is creating that downward pressure.
The wrist graphs don’t show the ulnar deviation until much later p6 to impact but the force in that direction can be good for some.
Great swing feel... !
Thank you!
I want to learn this move.
So do you let the trail arm externally rotate or not?
I’ve always wondered why this isn’t mentioned more? I see it in many great players but have never heard them mention it. I find it’s also helpful to understand a “Moment Arm” to explain the difference in shallowing the club and being too steep. Show this to Mike. He has said he never had much luck trying to shallow the club. Trying to shallow with rotation always ends up with me pulling the club down. If I time this clockwise rotation of the hands( looking back at my hands, counter clockwise if you are standing behind player) it is the secret. I’m not even sure if you can even over do it.
Master that trail wrist and a lot of things take care of themself. 👍
Hey Milo, great point which is lost on every instructor just about. The sad thing is the 2 instructors I've seen that mention it really half-way teach it!
Thanks for watching Alan!
Those of you who follow Mike Malaska should recognize this turn the doorknob move that they’re doing: Mike illustrates with various things in his hands, like a steering wheel or a tennis racket. It’s the same wrist movement he uses to start his downswing and shallow the club. You can trace this move all the way back to Ben Hogan, who described the start of his downswing this way: “I feel like I’m taking an arrow out of a quiver.” Reach back to the arrow in an imaginary quiver strapped across your back and watch your hand as you begin to lift it out and clear of the quiver. Your hand moves just like it would turning a doorknob. By the way, this is also how your hand behaves if your first move was to throw the club head backward along the target line, like Stan Utley taught Charles Barkley, which eventually cured Bartley’s horrendous swing.
The old Malaska move was the reverse direction of this however.
@@MiloLinesGolf If two teachers can coach first moves in the downswing that are the reverse of one another, there’s a message in there somewhere. Either something is being lost in translation or the correct golf swing admits of that kind of variation. I’ll leave that to you to address.
I've had surgery on the tendons on the dorsal surface of my right hand. This prevents significant wrist extension. What can I do?
Thanks.
Nice video. I tried this move but trying to roll my left wrist. When doing that I end up pulling the club down and chunking my shots
I do the same wind up shutting the face
If you are chunking shots you are pushing your arms down rather than allowing momentum to send them into the proper arc
When I worked on this move it seems like the shaft got vertical/upright at impact causing toe strikes. Any suggestions to flatten the shaft at impact?
Sounds like you are sitting and the jumping. Sit and turn!
I'd like to see a slo mo, in more detail, of milo's swing as shown on his intro at about 12 seconds into this video. His hand action thru the ball looks like the end result of what he and Henry are teaching here.
Stop action would be great.
Thank god I played tournament-level tennis as a teen and this move is 100% natural from hitting a topspin tennis forehand. I've shown many range friends this as a move I use as a source of power when I want to crank it up. Matt Wolff's golf swing is the ultimate expression of this move because it is just the biggest looping tennis forehand you will ever see - I love practicing it because it basically adds at least 1 club of distance.
Very cool. Crossover in all sports
The left forearm also helps with this move. Right? Like baseball batting ?
hey Milo, I like your videos. You've probably been asked this a million times... Do run into Mike Malaska out there at Supersition Mountain?
Yes Mike and I often teach side by side
Is this the same as un hinging thumbs down in transition. It seems easier for me to do rather then feeling right hand only . It seems to give the right wrist extension and left slightly bowed that you see in most pros transition.
Not exactly, I don't encourage as much ulnar.
Years ago I severely dislocated my right shoulder and this puts a lot of stress on it. Is there any other tips for shallowing when you have shoulder limitations
I’d have to see your move to give you any ideas.
What a coincidence, I was just working on this motion in the back yard...tremendous
Thanks Christopher!
No way
If you kept the club square on way back ( parallel to spine ) would you need to feel the supination on way down ?
Most every elite player does this move, but it happens naturally because of the transition and CoM falling behind.
Thanks for this, could u detail how the right arm moves through impact after this move? Does the wrist continue to complete the circle or does it unhinge through (extension to flexion)?
When you mentioned this move in earlier videos, I instantly recalled a video of mike austin talking about what seems to be the exact same thing though I wasnt able to understand it.
I believe this topic is on our list of to-dos. Otherwise, I have several trail arm videos on here already. Thanks for watching!
@@MiloLinesGolf thanks Milo, looking forward to it. Believe I've watched most all your videos especially on this topic. p6 through impact p8(?) has always been my quandry as the arms, forearms and wrists can move in so many different ways & degrees. of course it's ideal if the movements are "natural" but I believe most natural won't occur for most AMs because we've already been doing something deliberate.
I have personally found that for myself, deliberately unhinging R wrist extension to flexion with low tension negates the need to focus on ulnar deviation. No sure how correct that is.
thanks again.
Keep working on this. Once you get it the club head will square up naturally. Google “ moment arm” to see why.
Hi Milo, thanks for the vid. I still have trouble understanding how to square up by impact. If one supinates the trail arm at any point, then they must undo that supination by impact. Appreciate your clarification. PS when Henry is demonstrating the move his palm is facing the camera, whereas in a golf swing it would be more facing skyward.
Physics takes care of most things when the pivot works correctly.
Hi Milo, What is the role of lead forearm supination in the swing? I have noticed the door-knob move tends to supinate the lead forearm as well as the trail, kind of like wringing a towel. Is this correct?
The lead arm and wrist will do different things depending on how you grip the club. I like to think of the lead arm as a rope that moves how momentum moves it.
Supination in the trail forearm will pronate the lead forearm
At what point should I feel my right wrist in extension in the backswing? I feel like my club is too laid off at the top when I wrist hinge early, which then causes me to get stuck in the downswing.
The hinge for most starts about the time the grip gets outside the trail leg. If you’re getting laid off your arms are rolling too much
Milo, since you worked with Mike Malaska in the past, what do you think of his concept of shallowing the club, and how it correlates or differentiates from the door knob concept? From a beginner's perspective (mine), they look very different so I wonder if you disagree with his or I just don't understand enough to see the similarities. Thank you.
I don’t like the idea of tipping the club out while the arms come down. Mike is a great teacher but that is a point of disagreement.
@@MiloLinesGolf Sometimes it is difficult to decide which to follow from my favorite youtube instructors when the messages are different so I really appreciate you taking the time to reply, Milo. Cheers!
Have u every addressed what happens to the left wrist as the right hand does the door knob turn? Does the left wrist naturally have to flatten or bow?
Yes some what.
Milo: do you subscribe to the feeling of "holding the tray" at the top with the right palm facing upwards? If so, wouldn't this move would be similar to placing the tray on a table? This a great move, but hard to incorporate.
He mentions this right in the video @ 6:25
@@mikesennema6254 So he does, thanks. Multi tasking.
Thanks guys!
Bob Toski in his 1973 book 'COMPLETE GUIDE TO BETTER GOLF' pg. 45 writes: 'And here is a final tip to help you retrain your shoulders. Stand upright with your right arm hanging at your side, then gradually turn the arm clockwise. Note how your upper arm and elbow readily move in close to your side.If you can apply this same turning motion to the arm at the start of your downswing, I think you'll find it much easier to lead with your legs and follow with your shoulders. You may feel as though your clubhead is never going to catch up with your hands in time. Don't worry - it will.'
Thanks for sharing and watching Andy!
Lead arm pronation , trail arm supination will shallow the shaft AND OPEN the FACE
Extension of the lead wrist will close the clubface
A similar motion was mentioned by Monte Scheinblum in his "no turn/cast" drill. in which the golfer has a feel of casting the club behind him at the start of the downswing. I think it's the equivalent of turning the doorknob, which for me works better than the casting thought. I used it to help my long suffering brother in law with his swing. I'm no pro, but it helped him to imagine the shaft as a fishing rod. Feel, not real.
Similar but we don’t advocate the ulnar as he does
When I try to manipulate my hands it introduces tension
That looks like the Superstition Mountains in AZ yes? My in-laws live in Gold Canyon with their backyard facing that. Must be right next door
Yes! I’m very lucky
Will this drill also help you to open up the body at impact? Or would you recommend to first practice to open up the lower body and THEN practice to doorknob? Or do both at the same time.
It will and you need to do them together
@@MiloLinesGolf Thank you. Just back from the range practicing the doorknob. It was really difficult, felt super awkward. A bit easier was to practice a better extension of the trailing wrist which had good results in terms of creating a nice little draw. Would like to try another session with the doorknob but unsure how to tackle it.
Have you looked into joining my online academy to work 1-on-1 with me and my team? milolinesgolf.com ... otherwise, here is a video that may offer a drill to better work this feel: ruclips.net/video/nzQv65KRtXk/видео.html
@@MiloLinesGolf Thanks Milo. Love your academy. Cheers /magnus
@@MiloLinesGolf Tried the circle drill. Love it since it is so visible with what happens to the trail wrist. Easier to do without the ball but still works fine with it (will continue to practice it). 🙏
I’ve used this as a mental image. (I think its about two months ago Milo showed it first time?)
You got it Hannu! Hope you're well.
It would be so much easier to grab a tennis ball, go to a local school and play a little hand ball against the brick wall focusing on hitting with top spin. You will ingrain the timing of the move and body motion all at the same time. This door knob turning idea is fine but until you ingrain the timing you will get lost for years.
Thanks for watching. We have numerous videos on sequence and discuss this in this video as well.
Is this not the move that is needed to uncock downplane? Could never work out how to uncock and roll but this solves that dilemma unconsciously?
Ok. I think I understand, but next question is , even if you get it squared to the line. How do you keep from hitting a big push?
This move is exactly what the late great Mike Austin showed us, reiterated by the late Dan Shauger and also used by Austins greatest pupil, the late Mike Dunaway.
cool
Milo, are we no longer concerned with a flat left wrist? These conditions lean toward a "bowed" left wrist with that supination condition. However, this video does contradict a previous video you both made.
The left wrist will look different depending on the strength of the grip. In this video we never even mentioned the left hand
@@MiloLinesGolf Thanks Milo, My typo, I was speaking of the right hand but typed left....LOL
Soft wrist definitely helps with this move .
Correct! Thanks for watching Eli!
Isn't this the same as lead hand ulnar release?
Same looks but from the wrist graphs very few players actually move towards ulnar until much later in the downswing
If there is a tee stuck in butt of the grip, flattening the club will point the tee way outside of the plane on the downswing.
I thought pronation was when you take it to the top and shallow the club?
Pronation would be happening in the lead forearm perhaps.
Keys to the City.
Haha, thanks Paul
Easier said then done. I’ve tried doing this with a club and it’s not as simple as it may seem
We like to see this movement more happen as a consequence of good movement, sequence, and change of direction, but some may need to feel this separately at first.
I’m probably not getting this. When I try to manipulate my hands I shank it. Or hit it dead right. I’ll watch again.
"The twirl"........reference Seinfeld episode on the move. George added a twirl. It did not go well.
Although the move you are describing when done correctly NATURALLY as you mentioned it adds speed and stays square
Not sure how we got to Seinfeld haha.
Milo, check out Chagol, a Japanese instructor, on you tube. He advocates Hands Forward and describes movements which gets into your position at impact.
He’s very much in line with what I teach
Wishing for content on how to repeatedly find the bottom of the arc
We have a few in the pipeline. Thanks Todd.
open a pickle jar is how i learned it lol
Maybe I should rename our video haha.
@@MiloLinesGolf 🤣
Could you demonstrate this in slow motion in an actual golf swing?
I edited in a slow motion swing at the end for you to see. It's a subtle move that ideally is driven by getting into the ground and unwind as the center of mass if left behind.
@@MiloLinesGolf Thank you.
Please have this guy on more than the bebettergolf guy. This is much more constructive
Pretty much all my videos are with myself, Henry, or Ed Lasater. Henry always keeps me on my toes and brings up some great questions/thoughts. The ones with Be Better Golf are mostly on his channel, I just occasionally share one here. They are both coaches on our online academy: milolinesgolf.com. Thanks for watching Alex!
One arm swing, most of us look great, that 2nd hand confuses most of us?
Trail arm swings can be a good practice for training grip and wrist conditions, yes.
Jesus this is good 🤦🏿♂️
?
@@MiloLinesGolf this is just insanely well explained and super simple. I’m a high school golf coach and we talk about shallowing the club a ton and this is just the simplest explanation I’ve seen
Glad to hear Courtney! Sorry, I misinterpreted your emoji.
you guys are only saying the same thing that Hogan said decades earlier. Hogan had all elements in the grip, hip turn etc to compliment this move.
Nothing new under the sun.
This is Steve Elkington's "twirl". Won him money
I think Henry mentioned a twirl. Thanks Alexander!
Totally confused! sorry!
What can I help clear up Huy?
@@MiloLinesGolf it’s the angle of my hand when I turn the knob- maybe I have to watch it again -
Trail wrist extension, that's the key. By getting the center of mass (clubhead) behind you, that gives you permission to rotate. They match up. Hope this helps!
@@MiloLinesGolf - Thank you very much! Will practice this move on the range
stop getting me to shallow the club. I can't do it!
Maybe you should join our academy so I can better help you? milolinesgolf.com Thanks for watching.
@@MiloLinesGolf ill give it a look. thank you.
You talked too much, can show us how it’s done? You can talk and yet demonstrate. 🤷🏼♂️
I'm pretty sure we demonstrated numerous times in this video? Perhaps this new one could help clarify: ruclips.net/video/nzQv65KRtXk/видео.html
Milo Lines, you blab as much as Russell Heritage, but you give less information than Pete Cowan. Instead of bloviating, why don't you use a camera shooting from face on, down the line, & above to make your point? Moreover, rotating your hand or your wrist when you could have moved your whole arm in its socket is stupid ergonometrics. Go buy a Nowicki "Impact Snap Tool" & use it to demo club shallowing. That's smarter than your all too vague groping around for the right words.
Thanks for watching. The video was all of 7 minutes we couldn’t have rambled on too much. I am an actual coach don’t have a professional camera crew filming but that would be nice.