Autism Spectrum Disorder, Cluster B Personality Pathology, & Empathy
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- Опубликовано: 13 янв 2020
- This video answers the questions: What is the relationship between Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) and empathy? Is the lack of empathy different when comparing ASD and Cluster B Personality Pathology (antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic personality disorders)
Is empathy assessed different for each group?
Empathy in Autism Spectrum Disorder
Irene E. Harmsen
Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders
doi.org/10.1007/s10803-019-04...
Does Theory of Mind Training Enhance Empathy in Autism?
Annaleena Holopainen, Daniëlle M. J. de Veld, Elske Hoddenbach1, Sander Begeer
Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders (2019) 49:3965-3972
doi.org/10.1007/s10803-018-36...
Murphy, B. A., & Lilienfeld, S. O. (2019). Are self-report cognitive empathy ratings valid proxies for cognitive empathy ability? Negligible meta-analytic relations with behavioral task performance. Psychological Assessment, 31(8), 1062-1072. doi-org.mylibrary.wilmu.edu/1... (Supplemental)
Dudas, R. B., Lovejoy, C., Cassidy, S., Allison, C., Smith, P., & Baron-Cohen, S. (2017). The overlap between autistic spectrum conditions and borderline personality disorder. PLoS ONE, 12(9), 1-13.
Strunz, S., Westphal, L., Ritter, K., Heuser, I., Dziobek, I., & Roepke, S. (2015). Personality Pathology of Adults With Autism Spectrum Disorder Without Accompanying Intellectual Impairment in Comparison to Adults With Personality Disorders. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 45(12), 4026-4038.
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My ex-wife and my parents are narcissists and my son is an asperger. Their empathy abilities differ greatly. My son, being 4-year-old is much more emotionally mature than my wife. He often fails to notice other people's emotions, but once he does, he really lives into it, and really feels for other people. My parents and my ex-wife observe other people's emotions with sadistic interest, they don't get infected with emotions, they watch them emotionlessly as if they were some lizards...
Mikhail Belkin that was my initial reaction as well. And outstanding, YES they are different! Lol 😂 my youngest sister (26) has autism and she has empathy. Though she lacks it at times and becomes angry, after she calms down she can say sorry and explain she was upset. This took her many years but it surprised me when she started to be able to verbalize that. She is also protective of animals and can tell/verbalize when someone else is upset.
Also it’s evident by explaining in her own way to others, are you sad? And your sad? And sometimes she will talk about crying and people being bad. She understands to a certain extent people feel things. But other times she could care less, but this is related to what I believe is her anxiety about doing things outside of her schedule. She sometimes will agree to go places that she wants to go, but sometimes she will freak out and want to go home. My parents have learned to just make her go with us and not allow her to change the plans while we are in the car driving because of her meltdowns. This is different to me because it’s the autism and comfort of doing things.
Another example is how I’ve taken her on the airlines several times by myself so we could go see my parents out of state. I found that priming her the day before about the trip and asking her what she will wear helps a lot. And it helps her make more appropriate choices too. She still gets pretty upset sometimes. But empathy deficits are different in how they manifest.
@@lousunny5682, right! And autists are definitely not about taking advantage of other people being emotional (like Cluster B)! Even though sometimes they are too consumed in their own thoughts to appreciate emotions of others...
@@NTraveller have you ever looked at your own actions & behaviours in terms of how they relate to the reactions of others? You not only labelled your ex-wife with a very negative term but also your parents. If everyone in your life seems defective, it's usually you that's defective because you're the common denominator. Maybe these people in your life are narcissists but I would implore you to actually take an objective look at yourself & why you may have had negative interactions with others. I am always amazed at how many comment on these videos saying "my ex wife is x, my former business partner is x, my parents are x, my old boss is x, my neighbor is x, my brother is ex" etc., & they fail to see that if everyone in their life treats them a certain, they are the problem. It's statisically unlikely that everyone in your life is a sociopath, narcissist, psychopath etc.
@@flipgunderson1946 I absolutely agree with your general statement. However, insight is a rare flower in mental health communities. You can't force it on people. It makes no sense to discourage commenters who try to find answers why their relationships don't work and start doing this by labeling and blaming everyone else first. It might be that it is their first step on their journey and the moment when they're realizing that they're 50% of the problem will soon come. If it doesn't come, well then Dr. Grande at least had an interested listener. ..
I used to date a guy with asperger, he told me right from the beginning that he had issues with empathy as well as reading social situations, so he might act inappropriately in certain situations, particularly concerning grief and sadness.
A bit into the relationship, a guy I worked with got in an accident and died. I told my then-boyfriend what had happened, , he was completely carefree and he essentially reacted the same way he would have, if I had told him I'd gotten a new blanket for Christmas. Instead of getting frustrated as I would have if we hadn't talked about it beforehand, I told him that it was very hard for me, and that I needed something different from him.
He immediately changed his behavior without questioning it or making excuses.
To this day that is still my greatest example of why it's important to talk openly about these things both before they become relevant and when they do.
It’s funny how you require him to instantly put on a fake persona just to appease and make you feel better rather than just letting him be his natural self. Autistic ppl get told they have low empathy all the time but don’t realize that the mere idea of that stems from neurotypicals lack of empathy. Are brains are wired differently so we have to try really hard to act and understand you guys, which causes so much stress and makes sense as to why the suicide rate is so high for us, yet you don’t give a thought about ever trying to understand us. Interesting. Most humans are narcissists of you really think about it, not there fault mainly society, social media etc.
I am someone with Aspergers. Unless you told me explicitly that you were sad about it, I wouldn't naturally make the guess that it was impacting you. If I knew beforehand that you were friends, then I might make the logical leap. For example, if you told me "my friend at work died," in my head I would think (1) friends are important, (2) people usually see losing a friend as a sad event, (3) it's likely that she's sad, but she also might not be, (4) ask her if she wants to be comforted/offer comfort and see if she responds positively. If you told me "my coworker died," I might go, (1) a coworker died, (2) that's shocking news, (3) but she seems fine, (4) I'm not especially close to all of my coworkers either so that makes sense, (5) okay, what do you want for dinner? The second thought sequence would be even more likely if you weren't giving me obvious visual cues of sadness such as crying. I can be very literal that way. As soon as I knew comfort was wanted, then I'd happily provide it. I've been told offering emotional feedback that way can feel fake and inauthentic to neurotypical people since it isn't naturally intuited and spontaneously offered. I try my best to be spontaneous and intuit when I can (being a woman seems to make this easier), but I miss the mark sometimes.
@@Nuggetsin4 while you may be somewhat right, @Taleshunter, or anyone for that matter, can't be blamed for *not* knowing how to deal with a problem they have never encountered before. Most often times people don't even understand the disorder, itself, so how can you be mad at them for not *instantly* understanding a lifetimes worth of issues?
You can't be a hypocrite and expect things to change in a productive fashion. That goes for both sides of the argument. *Truly* understanding people is difficult, in any case - just because your problems are less frequent doesn't change how consistently responsible you should be about handling them.
In my 24 years of being autistic, I've found that most people suck at understanding anything outside of their own subconscious drives. Matter of fact, most people spend their lives trying to (subconsciously) individuate. They don't even know what they're doing at a meta level in their own lives, so why is it so surprising that they don't understand what's happening at the meta level of yours? That lapse in your evaluation could be considered narcissistic on your part, depending on who you ask, could it not? Well, it depends on how informed they are of the given situation. Like most things. If you ask someone with normal vision what color the sky is, you'd expect to get "blue," but if you ask someone with a type of colorblindness (aside from them knowing that the conventional answer would be blue), you might get: green, purple, grey, or something as extreme as "what the f*ck is blue.* (This also depends on the time of day, but those are implied semantics I won't touch...)
My point being, as a person on the outside, it's easy to see that neither person is technically wrong, and being in a superposition of right and wrong isn't easy to deal with. Most marriages fail because of this.
Conversations are negotiations of understandings between people with the big blunt instrument of language; don't expect to get out of them more than the combined effort of *both* parties - it takes two to tango; some people just so happen to prefer the waltz. Ain't nothing wrong with that, just gotta find someone/people who are/is willing to teach you how to dance the way they do, and is willing to learn to do the same for you. ASD, or not.
Exactly.
@@Nuggetsin4 it’s a double standard - NT have a right to be accepted in their natural state, but AS should adjust ourselves to fit what is natural for an NT. So much for empathy lol.
In my experience, a person with Asperger care a lot, they just have difficulties to see social cues.
A cluster B see a lot of social cues, they just don't care or feel themselves entitled to not care.
For a person with Asperger you just need to ask questions and communicate with them verbally.
For a person with cluster B the communication doesn't help. They don't care, and may take your attempt to talk with them as an excuse to attack you or fake more misunderstandings.
Befriend a person with Asperger, and you have a solid, loyal friend for life, despite their eccentrics.
Befriend a person with Cluster B, and you will eventually find out you weren't friends at all.
A person with Asperger will read the lines, and nothing in between.
A person with Cluster B will actively add things between the lines and ignore the lines themselves.
A person with Asperger is usually exactly what they say they are. They are extremely predictable. Its like interacting with a solid rock.
A person with Cluster B are almost never where you expect them to be. Its like interacting with a gas cloud.
A person with Aspergers are often attacked due to misinterpretions.
A person with cluster B often attack people due to misinterpretions.
A person with Asperger will (annoyed) correct you on rigid factual information and insist until you "get it", but is very unlikely to ever block or unfriend you on social media. They criticise you to make you a better person.
A person with Cluster B will (annoyed) leave you for made up reasons and insist you are an awful person for not getting it right before they told you about it, and they are very likely to block or unfriend you on social media. They criticise you to push you down.
A person with Asperger will lecture you for hours on their special interest.
A person with Cluster B will fake having your special interest.
Perfectly explained, now can you just say this to everyone else on the planet so they understand and we can move on..thankyou.
Wonderful comment! Thank you!
JemyM BS! Aspies R disloyal to their core
@@caroleannfreelingghost9404: You sound like the stereotypical projecting Cluster B person.
Perfectly said!
Having autism is both a bless and a curse. I'm 19 years old. It's been a month since i discovered i had aspergers. Suddenly everything started to make sense to me. The lack of empathy is true. I keep a distance from others all the time but it's not something I want. I enjoy my private time, I love being alone for some time, that relax me a lot. But I *do* want to have a relationship with someone. The hardest part for me (and probably most of us) is how to approach people. When talking to someone I'm afraid they might leave me, get bored or judge me. I *need* to know what I'm supposed to say, I'm not trying to be rude, I just want to make the person feel comfortable around me, since being out in public on large crowds or with strangers it's _hella_ exhausting for me. Loneliness is good for us. But all the time it gets pretty bad. We just need someone to understand us and accpet us by who we are since there is no cure to it. *AND THANKFULLY THERE ISN'T* . A good analogy to this is: I'm a balloon floating in the air that needs a helping hand to not get lost, and don't try to bring me to the ground, I wasn't made for that, both of we can help each other and be happy in that way. =)
I feel you. I'm 18 and discovered that i had aspergers just a few months ago. I could not agree more..
You have said that very well .. also about that balloon..Completely understandable. I think it helps if you accept and love yourself as you are. And if someone has shown to like or love you, try to show back your appreciation regularly. That also helps. I was married to a man with aspergers, but we both didn't realize it at that time. It made the relationship very heavy and difficult for an empath like me. I didn't keep it up and left him for my own mental health. But... if I'd known his problem before, I would have understood him só much better .. 😔 Don't hide yourself bc of this. Wish you lovely friends! 👌👍
Be yourself, seek out groups that share your common interests as then you will all share a common interest that automatically gives you something in common to discuss among one another (usually the biggest problem is trying to strike up a conversation with someone new without an established subject or interest...this way all of you have at least one common interest). Find some opening lines that you can use as initial ice breakers to try and strike up conversation with strangers (e.g. “what time is it?”, the current or future weather as in “wow, how about that rain/sleet/hail/wind/heat/cold/snow/ice!”, etc.), that can get you past the initial awkwardness provided the other party reciprocates...and if they don’t help move the conversation forward then move on because we won’t get anywhere with small talk if the other party does not reciprocate and actively help us to move the conversation forward. If you share a common interest then try choosing a subject related to your common interests (for example, one of my interests is amateur radio so I might try discussing my latest antenna project or a recent contact I made with someone half way around the world, etc.). Don’t be afraid to disclose your aspergers or high functioning autism diagnosis to those people that interest you as possible friends (or even colleagues) as, if they value their relationship with you, they will hopefully use that disclosure to better understand your eccentricities by Googling “aspergers” or “high functioning autism” and thus come to better understand you. Knowledge on their part also makes it much easier for them to overlook eccentricities and simple mistakes when they realize you are not ignoring or slighting them and that you function best when they simply share their feelings, needs, and intentions, and concerns with you in straightforward words rather than expecting you to read between the lines (bluntness is often preferred versus politeness that requires reading between the lines). Learn to recognize clues, and especially spoken cues, that the other party desires a change of subject, needs to wrap up the conversation (if they say they need to get going or have a meeting/appointment at a certain time in the near future, wrap up your part within a minute or two and give them a chance to say their closing statements and exit the conversation), remember to give the other party an opportunity to inject at regular intervals as opposed to talking for minutes at a time uninterrupted, don’t take offense if they change the topic of conversation as it is a cue that they would be more interested in the new topic and are needing or desiring an end to the current topic you have been talking about (their changing the topic is them helping you to better relate to them, accept the help even if you would rather continue the former topic). But ultimately “be yourself” while also trying to be as considerate as you can of those around you and try to help others whenever you can (being helpful, provided they appreciate the help, can ingratiate you with others while also showing that you care and also makes overlooking eccentricities easier).
In the immediate future, focusing on making a few close friends (especially “normal” friends that accept you as you are) is likely the greatest goal as friends that accept you as you are will not only be forgiving of your eccentricities but can also help you to refine social skills and they can help to introduce you to other groups and reduce your social anxiety since you will be with a trusted friend who can help introduce you to new groups and offer you constructive criticism when things go awry. Also, don’t be afraid to seek out a psychologist in your area if you need help learning to interact with others, understand others, or help with your own issues of anxiety, etc. Having a therapist as a trusted ally who has only your best interests at heart can be invaluable, but especially if you are also seeking out a romantic partner as it gives you a safe space to discuss your concerns, confusion, misunderstandings, how or what to say or do, etc.
Best wishes!
Your lifespan is cut by 16 years and you can never build meaningful relationships. I have been chronically unemployed at the age of 21. I can't understand anyone's struggles, thoughts, and emotions. I get yelled at constantly by everyone. That's my life.
I am 49, and was diagnosed with ASD 3 months ago. I can so relate with everything you said there. Be grateful you have your entire life to learn how to adjust. I have to relearn everything I "figured out" if I ever want to find another partner. That said, I absolutely HATE the fact that I have autism. I mean, I am glad to know why (finally) but I am lonely, heartbroken and depressed. My common law wife left 2 years and I cannot seem to move on, mostly because I don't have any clue how I will ever find someone else and I am terrified to do so in any case. All because I cannot recognize social queues. I get you on everything you said there, you have 30 years on me to learn to adjust so count your blessings heh.
I have asbergers I have found that I feel empathy but sometimes don't know how to express it.
Same here. I do have empathy but I don’t know how to express it.
@@akiram6609 I recently watched a very interesting, recent video made by History Scope, who is himself autistic, called The History of Autism. He explains it from the inside looking out.
@@raycarnis9540 thanks, I will look it up
I am Autistic and have empathy but I don't know what to say or how to show my feelings the right way.
*Asperger's
That is so true that people with cluster B disorders are not able to self-report their thoughts and actions.
My mom considers herself to be one of the kindest and helpful(lest?) people on Earth but everyone runs from her because what we see is that she is manipulative and never tells her truth. There are always secret agendas and secret anger in her. So ... she thinks of her as of a victim. And - she never stops to think why ALL the people run away from her. For her it's like some witch-hunt. She does not see that she is the reason why people stay away.
I'm autistic woman. I do prefer call myself 'autistic' over aspie. I was recently diagnosed with ASD (some months ago in age 26). And I thought about empathy a lot. I remember many autistic people said they have a high level of empathy (some of them may not have this level of empathy) and... I feel that. There was explanation that autistic people may be overwhelmed by emotion of other people in this same room with them (for example, a waiting room in doctor office). And this is what I experience. I have a high level of emotional empathy and I have a problems with cognitive empathy. I would be like 'this person is angry! WHY? They are probably angry at me!'. I won't realize that this person doesn't like the song which is playing right now or they are angry at something else. Also, I have a high level of compassion too towards my family, friends, and my cats (pets in general). My compassion is so high, I can't even say if it's my emotions or somebody's else. Anyway, I'm an autistic woman. I'm not sure if it's the same for men. Plus, I feel like people in our community are different and each person's experience unique. I can't say if many aspies/autistic people feel the same or not
This is a great point, and so was the closing argument. Autism shows up very differently depending on the person, and there are often large differences between biological sexes, whether it's because of their differing social situations or their biology, I'm not sure. What I am say is that my sex is female and my parents do not want to get me diagnosed for autism (they believe it will do me well if people do not know for sure), so I may be able to offer my perspective as well. my empathy seems to only be present in certain situations, such as for close friends and parents. this may be because I was punished for not showing empathetic behavior around my parents, or it may be because I care about my friend's distress more than other people. With strangers, it is much harder for me to empathize with. I suspect that my mother be autistic (had suspected prior to this comment), and it seems you share the same empathy as her. all I can say is that it likely just varies depending on the person.
I am not diagnosed (getting there soon hopefully) but I'm born male and I highly relate especially with pets and animals and general. I mean I feel like a terrible person while mowing the yard because of the insects being harmed lol.
I'm with you exactly here. I remember in the TV series Hannibal, the main character, Will, is described as an empath and he says peoples' eyes hold too much emotion, thats why he doesn't look at them. This was MIND BLOWING to me. Major light bulb moment. I would argue I have moments of being super blunt and insensitive to a situation because I'm "stating a fact" and when I was younger, I didn't get the nuance of the situation or how it may make others feel. I was just like "well you feel that way because of X" and be cold about it. But when I realised I'd hurt someone's feelings I was mortified beyond belief. Cluster B personalities wouldn't care. They'd pretend to care because its made them look bad. That's the difference.
@@hannah51238people with BPD are different than other cluster Bs (or at least NPD) because they have a high emotional empathy but low cognitive, similar to those with ASD. This is why ASD and BPD are often misdiagnosed, especially in women . So people with BPD would feel bad about hurting others.
@@srso4660 actually it the other way around NPD or so known as narcissism have little to no emotional empathy but have cognitive empathy meaning they understand why you’re upset just most times don’t care or give two shits they two focus on their emotions and them
I have come to believe that I am on the spectrum. I believe that I did not get diagnosed because of the traumatic home environment I grew up in. I was diagnosed DID, but I rejected this later once I realized no hidden memories were ever coming to surface other than the ones I didn't ever forget. I'm in my fourties and have only been able to maintain one job longterm, and that was a software developer/data analyst where autistic behaviors seem to be tolerated more. I could shut the world out and just code. I could leave work early and code at home once my headache started. I have always been overly sensitive to noise, lights, sounds, smells and all sensory input to the point of getting a migraines once I've reached my limit. I cannot maintain relationships and I have given up on the idea. I have always felt overwhelmed and broken and my health is reflecting my internal struggles. I feel overwhelming empathy, but it's always too late after the fact when I've gotten away from the situation and I can process what happened. The only creatures I always feel comfortable with are dogs and horses. Their communication is always honest and upfront, and they always allow you to fail and learn from failure whereas people give up so quickly.
Out of curiosity, have you ever been properly evaluated for Complex PTSD? Developmental trauma in our childhood not only alters brain development but can also lead to Complex PTSD (as well as other personality disorders) and all the mental illness and damaging physical health effects that stem from such. Dissociation is also common with C-PTSD (depersonalization, derealization, and amnesia - DID is simply the most extreme manifestation of dissociation and generally has to have developed by age 6-8). If you are in your 40s then you are close to my age and 30 years ago there really was not anyone in the mental health profession who believed in treating childhood trauma as the attitude was that children were infinitely resilient and, as such, we should “just get over it” with no real help whatsoever, there was simply no interest in treating childhood trauma. As a result many of us were essentially forced to compartmentalize and repress our past abuse on our own in an effort to try and move forward in life as adults. But later in life that compartmentalizations starts to break down and the C-PTSD eventually begins to take its place front and center. However, even in the decades where that abuse has been substantially repressed (and not necessarily to the point of “forgetting” it but rather to the point of no longer thinking about it), the C-PTSD is still in the background running our adult lives and relationships (where revictimization is common by way of abusive partners) as the subconscious does not forget and we remain perpetually hypervigilant and frequently tend to avoid much social contact with others and we may also have serious trust issues that greatly complicate romantic relationships. As long as the trauma persists unresolved it continues to devastate our health from the stress of our body’s fight or flight system remaining on permanent high alert for decades without a break. For those of us who don’t go over to the “dark side” of abusive personality disorders, empathy is often very much enhanced as we used such skills to adapt to and anticipate the actions of those who abused us throughout our childhood years (in essence, empathy became a well honed survival strategy).
You may or may not also be on the ASD spectrum as one does not preclude the other. But it is also difficult to say with certain as I have always struggled to determine to what extent the many symptoms of C-PTSD may confound the usual indicators of high functioning autism (for example, with childhood C-PTSD comes social anxiety, a tendency to self isolate, and thus less developed social skills, a bit like high functioning autism). There is an online AQ Test (Autism Spectrum Quotient) available to help with self-identifying autism (I typically score around 36-38), though that is still unofficial and official diagnosis is required to conclusively determine if one is on the spectrum and for most of us if we are adequately high functioning enough it is difficult to justify the cost of official diagnosis if it does not otherwise help us by making new resources available to us.
But I would suspect that it is likely worth seeing a psychologist to assess your childhood trauma and evaluate you for C-PTSD and possibly for ASD as well if they believe exploring such to be worthwhile for you. Addressing past trauma may also help to either improve or protect your future health as that trauma coupled with PTSD can wreck havoc on one’s physical health. My abuse in my adolescent years completely destroyed my physical health at the age of 18 to the point of permanent disability - nearly every health problem I have ever had over the past 30 years can be traced back to that earlier abuse and the C-PTSD, but it is only over this past year that the C-PTSD was finally recognized as my compartmentalization finally began collapsing and the C-PTSD moved from the background to the foreground. So at the age of 48 I finally began therapy for C-PTSD in early September. I did try to seek help 30 years ago, but not only was no help offered 30 years ago the psychiatric profession basically blamed me for that abuse in childhood and for not having “gotten over it”, and then further abused my trust by blaming me for “failing them as a patient” (those words were actually spoken aloud despite my having complied with every request and instruction given) when the prescribed antidepressants and other outside therapy I was prescribed did nothing to cure my depression (instead they took a mildly depressed teen and drove him to the very edge of committing suicide).
I wish you all the best as it is not any fun!
They misdiagnosed me with DID. I am now diagnosed with PTSD and Autism.
I feel this to my core. I've recently had a career pivot towards data and development as it makes sense for my mind. And I too struggle with being able to process my emotions in the moment. Far after the experience I'm able settle down and really take in the situation, though this process is often derailed by severe ADHD. Thank you for you comment, it's grounding to relate to someone's experience.
Really glad to see Dr. Grande do this video. I am a mature woman who has just been diagnosed with ASD this past fall and so many things finally make sense. I spent many, many years going to mental health professionals and never getting an answer that fit. My Mother was diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. She is now in her 80s but we think she might actually be ASD as well. Apparently this is a common misdiagnosis for women on the spectrum. Would love to see more videos on ASD from Dr. Grande.
Sad to hear it took so long, but glad to hear you got some answers finally. ASD in typically developing women is indeed often misdiagnosed or flies under the radar for a long time, as symptomatology may somewhat differ, and seems to not be so acute, or to be camouflaged by better social imitation skills (the root reasons are still very much under debate). But be assured, there is a very significant tendency for women like you to get their diagnosis much later in life, so do not feel weird or "left out".
If you're interested, you can find several groups and associations for women with aspergers and high functioning autism, often established by women who have also had this sort of experience.
I am a 30 year old woman and just got diagnosed.
In my country it was so incredibly difficult to find a clinic that diagnosed adults with ASD. When I finally had my appointment they explained to me why that was. Although it's relatively "easy" to spot ASD in children and teens, the older you get, the more you usually learned to masquerade. Out of necessity. Thus making it harder to diagnose for non ASD specialized professionals.
Also I have to add that for around 5 years I though I was "cured" of my weirdness because I had learnt to pretend so well. Until losing the one person in this world, that could understand me, devastated me to the point were I lost the power to keep my masks up and everything broke down like a house of cards.
There are many reasons why especially females with ASD fly under the radar for a long time...
@@elitessmess9222 The masking is heartbreaking. I was accused of having a split personality by my ex-partner and a boss. The masking is so very exhausting. I was very relieved to finally know that my concerns about myself were valid, and now it seems I'm grieving my lost years of confusion and failures that I blamed myself for. I'm very glad you have your diagnosis 25 years earlier than I have. I believe it will make a huge difference in your future for the better. It seems there is progress and my hope is that no young woman will have to spend decades of their lives totally bewildered. Also, there are a lot of really cool things about being a high functioning autistic and some pretty positive communities online. Tonight I'm going to my adult ASD support group and looking forward to it. I wish you all the best on your journey to understanding and overcoming.
@@TheJilayne I think it is incredible what you were able to endure. I don't know if I could have taken much more of this.
Though thankfully it wasn't that long for me, to finally know is a big relieve, I agree.
I am still to figure out where to go from here and how to rebuild my life which is overwhelming. Still there is a new sense of hope in me, I think I've never had before.
Thank you very much for your kind words!
In my experience, ASD and BPD are mutually exclusive.
Maybe that unicorn exists somewhere, but I've not come across it. As far as I understand those two they are mutually exclusive in their ways of thinking to begin with. One is overly systemic while the other is overly emotional and immature. Speaking of high functioning autism in this regard, for otherwise I doubt we would be talking about this issue. To mistake an autistic overload or tantrum for a BPD-related tantrum however would require a very untrained or biased eye. To my knowledge it is more likely to misdiagnose female autists with antisocial personality disorder/psychopathy. In this case I may have seen cases where the two actually are present at the same time, though rarely. This is mainly a question of presence of conscience and remorse.
Can you do one on ADD and CPTSD when it comes to attention and focus, how are they different in this area and how do you recognize each other?? Please!
That would be good because I've been diagnosed with both and have a hard time distinguishing the two, add a diagnosis of OSDD (1a) and oh boy.
Seconded! I think part of my hypervigilance is because as an undiagnosed kid w/ADHD I was always being shocked when I got into trouble caused by not losing track of time etc...
Would love a video on this!
Could you do more videos about empathy, please? It would be interesting to hear your analysis as to why certain individuals innately are HSP or empathic by nature, and why some individuals develop more empathy as they grow older via environmental factors or 'nurture.' Also, it would be helpful to understand more about the absence of empathy in certain personality disorders and how these differ in their expression.
Kybele Kordax Second this!
Kybele Kordax look up Dr Bruce Perry (Houston Tx) He goes into a deep scientific and medical dive into the specific physical attributes of a persons nervous system and brain as an Empath. Look up Elaine Aron Who is a renowned expert on HSP. Hope this helps!
Tarren look up Dr Bruce Perry (Houston Tx) He goes into a deep scientific and medical dive into the specific physical attributes of a persons nervous system and brain as an Empath. Look up Elaine Aron Who is a renowned expert on HSP. Hope this helps!
My parents are both HSPs and they're emotionally neglectful 😕
@@SuperLotus That's awful. Do you think they're maybe narcissists? I'm wondering how HSP parents become emotionally neglectful of their children. Do your parents seem out of touch with reality?
I think this was part of one of my rather complex questions, and I am so thankful for scratching at this.
Many autists, including myself, get accused of narcissism, usually in Gaslighting environments set up by Cluster-Bs. A friend of mine is currently going through the same, being accused as a forward defense (projection) by her abuser (the clearly oedipal & narcissistic stepmother). And as I have seen with other autists, including myself, they tend really take this accusation to heart and introspect, seek feverishly where this might be true and often find false positive answers, reduce any self-preservatory behaviours they mistake for selfishness even more and thus subject themselves to those psychological abusers even more. It is surely not for all cases and strands of autism, but I have observed this trend among a significant number of the high functioning types I know.
My follow-up question in this general topic is implied in the previous paragraph and was surely asked in some poor way before. For obvious contextual reasons here, I try to state it again:
Is there a predator/prey dynamic between certain personality types and especially disorders? Especially in relation to Cluster-B and the emotionally immature/naive non-Cluster-B individuals? Autists might also fall into this category as they tend to not easily pick up on liars, unless confronted directly with the reality checks. Also on this notion, it seems to me that Gaslighting affects Autists maybe not harder, but faster (thus seeming harder in effect over time) than non-Autists. My assumption would be that this is due to our prevalence to deal in raw factual information first and other aspects of communication secondary or tertiary. Continued Gaslighting thus triggers an ever more sore response with frantic reality checks about the given (false) information and accusations, wearing the mind down extremely fast.
I could elaborate and meander more, but I think my question is already getting lost.
Thank you for this piece, as I stated in the beginning. I was, for maybe understandable reasons, scared of the content at first, thus did not watch it right away as I should have and my exitement wanted me to when I got the notification. Either way, these are quite personal topics; whether regarding me directly or the people I had to deal with up until this point in my life. More knowledge, understanding, processing, gives more control and structure and stability back though, and thus must always be sought.
My partner is likely a high functioning Aspie and is often duped by narcissists. We even joke about how con artist can spot him a mile away. Fortunately, he has very discerning friends and he is smart enough to ask our opinion about new people in his life.
I have autism/Asperger's and I actually am very empathetic when I understand how someone's feeling, it's just that a lot of the time I don't understand what the social situation is, how to put myself in other people's shoes, or I otherwise don't express my empathy appropriately. My grandfather was almost definitely Cluster B (he was diagnosed with BPD, but he in all likelihood was clinically a narcissist as well, but he never sought mental health as he didn't think there was anything wrong with him and there wasn't a lot of awareness around mental health in his generation), and he was the opposite- he would understand the social situation completely, but he wouldn't care how other people thought and often use the situation to manipulate people. His biological father (he was adopted) in all likelihood was a sociopath/ASPD as well.
Sometimes our “lack of empathy” simply means that we disagree engage a different opinion from a neurotypical. Otherwise we often do understand or care what they think
Yes
Could you please do a video on a relationship of a daughter with ASD and a mother with cluster B personality (covert narcissism) ?
That video, if made, would be awesome. And I suppose troubling; the mother needs praise and recognition, and a daughter who may (or may not) be unable to give it (or merely unwilling).
Wow, that’s me too (except I’m a son), along with an intrusive smattering of emotional incest. Good times.
@@ScienceDruid Yes! And that would also be my brother's experience! Dr Grande could do a video addressing the issues with both a daughter and the son of the mother with covert narcissism. And omg you are so right about the emotional incest! I moved away at a young age but my brother is living with our mother and all these traits get worse as she ages!
yes this is my situation!!
I think this would be very interesting to see! Maybe narcissistic parent as well.
From my 20 to my 30 I was diagnosed with bipolar, on my 30 they changed my diagnose to borderline, then I was diagnosed with borderline traits, now I'm seeing a new psychologist, she does not rule out the borderline traits, but she believes I might be in the spectrum. All I wanted was a definitive diagnose. I feel that not having a closure on that keeps me hostage of exploring my full potencial. It's like telling someone they might have diabetes, but you can't be sure, should they eat chocolate, shouldn't they?! Should they have insuline or not... :/
I can relate to what you're saying, but it's not realistic imo as this will never happen. You can't put a living and therefore permanently changing and complex individual into such a simple box. The only person you may diagnose this way is a dead one. A diagnosis is meant as an aid for the mental health professional to work with you, it's not there to give you an identity. There are so many better ways to describe yourself than to use a clinical diagnosis.
@@mrs.reluctant4095 I see, and I do agree with you, I just couldn't bring myself yet to settle with what I got. I still have this feeling I need to have this tagged and resolved so I feel like mission accomplished or task done. I guess it's just a matter of time and patience, right?! I will probably get in a point in my life that maybe this won't matter as much anymore. 🤔🤨🧐
@@mrs.reluctant4095 I disagree. Therapy for Autism is different than therapy for Borderline Personality. If you have Bipolar they will recommend medicine. Since the treatment is different for each diagnosis having the correct diagnosis matters.
I have been diagnosed with all three of those disorders myself. I still am diagnosed with Autism and Bipolar Disorder. No matter what you are diagnosed with you are still you!
Thank you, Dr. Grande, for making these videos! They are fascinating and informative. I also love your voice, it calms my hyperactive sympathetic system down. 😊
I am autistic (late diagnosis) and my own experience is that we typically have very strong empathy. However our issues around acceptable and expected social cues impede the comfortable expression of our emotions. I explain it as being like a foreign language or culture: A person can express rich, warm emotions but if you don't know their language, it may be completely lost- even sound hostile and scary- because you don't understand the same nuances and meaning. Autistic people do not 'lack' emotions, we express and process them in ways that are foreign to and difficult to interpret by non-autistics. Many autistic people become avoidant and reclusive from receiving frequent negative reactions from people when they express themselves freely, not because they fundamentally dislike people and connection. Being constantly misunderstood and treated as 'weird' by the wider society is stressful and alienating and would make anyone prefer to be a hermit.
Great video! Part of it made me laugh. My husband with Aspergers (I guess now high-functioning ASD) listens to what I say but doesn't always respond right away, especially if it is complex or important. I ask if he hears me and he says yes, then regurgitates what I say. He says he wants to think about what I've said before offering some meaningless reply which, to me, shows more care than other socially acceptable responses that may lack any real consideration. I think some with ASD are thought to be uncaring, but I think it's just that they don't always know the right moves soon enough to avoid judgment, even though they do care. It's great if they are willing to learn the language of behavior to help them communicate the care they have for others.
Considering that autism is characterized by social and communication challenges, couldn't the perceived lack of empathy be more related to communication barriers rather than lack of empathy?
This is anecdotal, but I'm autistic and I've experienced situations where someone is excited and I have no idea how to respond, or I feel uncomfortable responding. By this study, it would appear as if I am coldhearted, rather than confused and overwhelmed.
Really interesting comparison. I can see how it would be easy to maybe write off a mild or moderate Aspie (person with what was formerly known as Asperger’s) as a narcissist. Would love to attend a full lecture on this topic!
Layered is a good look on you, Dr. Grande!
I find the structured assessment really interesting. I struggled with empathy deficits growing up, and I think this very formal way of explaining the components of an empathic response really would've helped a younger me.
One thing I'd like to point out is that moving from category IV to V is partially a function of relevant life experience. It's really hard to know what emotion to mirror if you've never experienced something. Unfortunately, a lot of people actively hide painful experiences from children, so it can be really confusing to try and learn from observation. Fortunately, fiction can help stand in for some of this experience.
Determining how well someone can empathise is an intriguing subject. ASD being "conceptualised as an extreme expression of the typical male brain" is an interesting theory as to why it's diagnosed primarily in males. The 'Theory of mind' (ToM) takes much dedicated effort to teach but has shown effectiveness in increasing empathic responses and, having met a few adults who work with children with ASD, I admire those who are committed to working with these methods. Thanks again for an excellent analysis, Dr. Grande.
Pleased with this topic 🙂 it’s possible to score high in both AQ and EQ on the _spectrum._ Might I request the topic of female ASD? Thank you very much.
It is a demonstrable observation that high AQ and EQ scores are *NOT* zero-sum: both scores span the spectrum.
Desertphile Just began reading the Intense World Theory. The complexity and neurobiology of the AS fascinates me; looking forward to future developments.
Thank you for covering these topics. In the past I have left comments to your videos regarding autism and how ASD relates to the personality disorders you have mentioned--- for example, I noted that I am well below clinical / diagnostic level for any known personality disorder, yet I behave in at least a dozen assorted personality disorder behaviors and I assume it is due to being born autistic. In your videos I intellectually winced a few times when you have mentioned diagnostic criteria for personality disorders that are common autistic behaviors and not *ONLY* a personality disorder marker.
This made me feel kind of bad, I have aspergers but thought I had a good level of empathy. As I was listening to this I realised maybe I don't. I'm worried now I've been walking through life thinking I was treating people well but really I was coming across as uncaring or uninterested.
Right? apparently people are sick of me😢
I agree, it can look like that, to neurotypicals, from the outside. To other autistics, communicating empathy is easier, if not just plain obvious. Plus, important to remember that empathy and compassion are entirely different things 🤗xx
I suspect that I have autism and I'm very empathetic. I can really picture how I would feel in a particular situation, and I feel very sorry for people in bad situations. However, I have almost no empathy for people who get themselves willingly into bad/abusive/addictive situations, and I don't suffer fools lightly, as they say. I think there is a very strong genetic component to autism, and genius in my family. My grandfather's cousin very clearly has some form of autism, and he and my dad are what you would call eccentric. My grandmother's brother on my dad's other side also obviously had something like autism. He could never live on his own as an adult. He memorized the phone book, and only drove his car once a year, to get it inspected. My middle brother has been diagnosed with autism and bipolar, and in my opinion he's my most "normal" brother. He held the same job for 17 years and lives independently. My other two brothers refuse to believe they have autism, but it very clear to me. My youngest brother is 48 and he's never lived on his own for long, and when he has it has always ended disastrously. My oldest brother functions fairly well. He's lived on his own since he was 19, except for when he was married a few times. He cannot sit still, has sleep disorders, and needs chaos to function. My youngest son has been diagnosed with Autism and he is very loving 💕 I'm determined to use what I know about Autism to keep him from falling through the cracks like my siblings and I did. I flirt with the idea of getting a diagnosis, but I function very well, and my life is cohesive, so I've never gone through with it. I have massive sensory issues, and suffer from dissociation (which I always recognize for what it is), and I do have occasional meltdowns, but I am very good at masking, so autism has not outwardly affected my life to the point that I've felt diagnosis was absolutely necessary, although I think one in childhood would have helped me a great deal.
This is the third time in about four days that I've heard about the concept of cognitive empathy. I'd never heard of it before, and now it comes up three times in quick succession. Weird when that happens.
Thank you Dr G ❤
You are a wonderful person
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Thank you for recording and posting this educational video.
Ughhh thank you for this one. I’m sick and tired of hearing “oh that person is a narc! I can always spot this!” And they’re talking about someone with Aspergers.
Here’s the thing, autism can also have comorbid disorders. My husband and I are both on the spectrum, but he also has narcissistic personality disorder and it totally changes the game . Yes we are married for 10 years , but he’s also more than willing to be open and honest about his perception of the world and so am I . I think it really makes a difference to have access to diagnosis and care because I’m sure if neither of us had that it would be extremely ugly .
I think care changes the game, and demonization of personality disorders only makes people with them even LESS likely to seek care.
Thanks so much for this video. You are the best! Happy Tuesday Dr. G
Im about to have brekky (breakfast in Australia) ☺️✌🌞
@@sarahvand3628 😁
A very interesting video, with some very cogent points. I actually saw this video after seeing a complaint from a reddit user who clearly misunderstands what is being said here regarding the "hyper-masculine traits" of ASD; but that is clearly a means of conceptualising the ideas, as you state.
I wonder to what extent alexithymia, often co-morbid with ASD can affect the process of empathy.
I was diagnosed at 29 with ASD, and finally understood why I had spent much of my life analysing others to better produce more contextually appropriate behaviours.
As a child I often had great difficulty in understanding another's mental state from contextual clues. But, once I learned to more easily recognise various signs typical of different emotional states my affective empathy drastically increased.
That which I understand, I feel. I was lucky in reasoning that actively improving my cognitive empathy over time would bring social benefits in informing my affective empathy.
I am also lucky to not suffer from alexithymia. Is there a standard practice in place to help those with alexithymia to understand their emotions? I suppose a therapeutic model of improving a patient's ability to more readily recognise their emotions paired with improving cognitive empathy could be greatly beneficial if this is not already standard practice.
Thanks for the great content.
Thanks for watching? MY pleasure! Thank YOU!
A postscript to a few videos back (on color preferences) and another, more recently, when you wore brown. I like to wear brown because I think it compliments my brown hair and eyes. For what it may be worth, I like you in brown, too. 👍
I was pondering this days agoo....so interested! so excite to watch
Brilliant video Dr. Grande.
Thank you 😃🇳🇱
It makes sense. Thank you Doctor Grande !
Thank You.... & YES! That was very interesting 🖤🦋
As someone who is suspected of being on the spectrum and the parent of a grown child on the spectrum, I think empathy is misunderstood in autism. For me, I feel empathy, I just don't show my emotions like many other people. For one thing, people always use a lot of sarcasm. I didn't get sarcasm or joking around at all as a child, but do a little bit now, though when trying to use it, I have a hard time and struggle. It is more on an elementary level. I judge sarcasm based on probability. If what is said is likely to be true, then I take it as truth, if it's unlikely to be true I assume it's sarcasm. This system for judging sarcasm has caused many misunderstandings, embarrassment for me, and bad situations. Basically, it is anxiety fuel. Since I am deficient in some of these areas, I often have a hard time knowing how to react to things, so I don't react. I have empathy, I just don't always know if I understand situations correctly and therefore fail to react out of fear of having a wrong reaction. It's very hard to explain.
I believe in time, the feelings of those with ASD will be better understood. Emotions are not feelings, emotions are the expression of one of the feelings a creature has. I think that training people with ASD how to identify and express an emotion would be helpful.
And there may be reasons that sensitive people withhold emotions. People with ASD are not well understood as having a lively but private internal experience.
Thank you, doctor.
This is very interesting! Thanks Dr. Grande!
Interesting. Thank u Doc🙏
I love these videos! Can you do I video on NVLD? I have this-would be great to hear you describe it. I listened to a podcast recently, a mother’s perspective-she said her daughter could get lost in space-it was a compelling interview.
There’s a problem in the gut-brain axis in ASD patients. Interestingly a large % of ASD patients show GI symptoms. Lots of research is taking place around the effect of the microbiome in ASD.
For me I wasn’t self aware enough to answer self questionnaires but when I thought about behaviors/memories relating to questionss I was able to answer it accurately
thank you Dr. Grande
My God! I had always thought that asking people why they felt a certain way was the best response, especially if they are talking about a positive emotion, because I would think they would be excited to talk about it and I always thought people were when I asked them why. Then, if they are upset, it also seems important to know why but it does make more sense if they don't feel like talking about it because it's an unpleasant emotion. To tell someone who is excited about tomorrow only that you are happy for them kind of seems to me like you're dismissing their excitement a little bit and I thought that they would feel more listened to if you asked them about it. Are we assuming that the person hearing that the other person is excited already knows what's happening tomorrow? I seriously thought that it's good to ask why in a lot of circumstances but now I don't know how to act. I guess I've been like this for 40 years and it hasn't been the part of autism that's gotten me into trouble, at least not that I know of. I get into trouble when someone is upset at me but they don't use any words to say so and I am just coming to the realization that sometimes people make those faces and don't even realize they had something they wanted to express so there's no way to know that, for an autistic person, they need to actually use words.
I'm autistic too, and I don't see anything wrong with the way you've been responding to things. I find the same thing with people getting mad at me and not telling me why. It's really frustrating. And they do weird hand signals and face tics, and expect me to know what to do. I sometimes just straight out say, "If you're trying to tell me something just say it, please."
Thank you from the Uk. Going to have a cuppa and listen 🏴🇬🇧💕
What's a cuppa if I dare ask?
A cup of tea! ;)
Im about to have brekky;)
A cup of tea.😅
@@2lynnw Thanks ladies I keep learnin' 'bout the beautiful English language.
Hello, I'm diagnosed autistic and have OCD. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on what a lot of people see as more of an empathy gap between autistic and non-autistic people and how that is or isn't reflected in psychology research and empathy constructs... Personally, I know that I am capable of very strong affective empathy but struggle tremendously with cognitive empathy and theory of mind. However, I also notice that other people very VERY frequently also misunderstand my emotional expressions and respond to them inappropriately, despite insistence that non-autistic people naturally develop stronger skills for recognizing and responding to emotional states appropriately in others. It's a bit frustrating and confusing and feels very much like a language barrier.
Ciarán Williamson I agree with you it is like that. NT and ASD people misunderstand each other all the time.
Has Dr Todd ever addressed how adults with learning disorder can be evaluated and/or the cost? 30 years ago, at least in the local school system I struggled through, terms like autism, dyslexia, ADD, etc, was merely lumped together as LD (learning disorder) which always seemed rather vague.
This topic is so interesting to me
Again, very excellent video. Truthful and unbias. I've had difficulties talking with professionals on these topics. There seems to be be fear or lack of personal experience to draw upon. I also have heared, at least in Oregon that cluster b or personality disorders are not billable by themselves, and has to be another diagnosis like bipolar first, and then they can add that with it.
Do you have any opinions on dielectric behavior therapy by Marsha Linehan? (the spelling might be in correct) that used to be recommended for borderline personality disorders.
Behavioral assessments transcend real-time observation. An individual's recollection of life experiences provides a rich resource for behavioral assessment. What more, a therapist will assess behavior of a client in conjunction with self-evaluation questionnaire approach. Behavioral indicators include eye contact, displayed effect, etc. My life experiences (nearly 70 years) as an Aspergian are available on my RUclips channel.
I cant wait to hear about this topic :D
I’ve noticed in some people that their severe social anxiety disorder as a result of an incident/ life trauma has been misdiagnosed as ASD.
That is why it is so vitally important to look at the entire trajectory from infancy through adolescence and adulthood rather than just what’s being observed during an assessment.
Ref. empathy, It’s also often tricky in a clinical setting to determine whether a man/woman is displaying genuine empathy or whether they’ve learned over time how to mirror/ mimic empathic gestures and facial expressions from observing others.
How about covering "healthy narcissism," and "prosocial psychopathy?"
If we use both the self-reporting questionnaires and behavioral assessments together, we'll get the whole picture!
Hi doctor Grande I watch a lot of your videos and enjoy your analysis on many topics, and I would like to know your perspective on people who are thin skinned vs people who are thick skinned.
Females are systemisers often. Male to female ratio now closer to 1:1. Great gradation of the 5 responses. TOM training and mentalisation training is great!
It would be great if Dr. Grande can do a video comparing Asperger's and Schizoid PD. If anything the lack of empathy is closer between these two than it is between ASD and cluster B.
Excellent I have communication issues
Im 32 and im currently being assessed for ASD and ADHD. I also have terrible short term memory issue's and I was diagnosed with Dyslcalculia in high school.
I struggle to understand other people's point of view sometimes and I struggle to show emotion when someone in my company is seriously upset.
For example if my niece died I would really struggle to empathise with how my sister was coping emotionally.
I'm diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, BPD, and ADHD at age 30... Sometimes I feel like I have narcissistic traits. I won't go to a therapist because all of the ones I've been to were not very intelligent, so I didn't feel as if they were qualified enough to help me. The only therapists I can find that seem to get it enough for me to respect them are on RUclips and I can't afford them in real life. I know this is a toxic way to think, and that maybe intellect is not what I need to be healed, but I have strong trust issues because of past trauma so I set the bar high when it comes to my expectations for a person I have to be vulnerable with. I do not want to be misunderstood, that is the worst feeling in the world. I have experienced enough of that. Also, because I am a female I don't think my aspergers is exactly the way a lot of psychologists describe it. I have many interests and I love being social, but not for too long, only short periods of time, and when I am I like to think I'm good at it from studying behavior and masking as well as I can but when it comes to showing deep emotion, I can only do that with people I've really come to trust and can feel empathically are good people. I just quit smoking, drinking, marijuana, and my adhd meds and I'm on a journey to heal my past trauma and overcome these toxic traits I have developed over time.
I can relate to this a lot. 27 and male, never been officially diagnosed but I’m 100% certain I’m Autistic. Fairly certain there is BPD and potentially NPD as well. I got a lot better socially when I was in high school and luckily I have a quick wit and fairly good sense of humor so I can make people laugh as a way of interacting. I find prolonged back and forth conversation can be difficult unless it’s someone I find funny, interesting, or doesn’t mind carrying a disproportionate amount of the conversation. And I totally understand the fear of consulting someone who you look to be cognitively inadequate. Before I was adopted as a kid (neglectful mother) I was living in the ghetto. I was always different from my peers, always wanting to learn about animals and the interstellar phenomena of the vast cosmos. At 6 years old I once described how the sun sustains nuclear fusion to one of my mother’s friends and her response was “the moon is more important because it gives us light at night”. I then told her that the moon doesn’t generate light but reflects the light of the sun and she didn’t believe me. A grown woman who was completely ignorant of the most visible and important body in the solar system was too much for me. “What else could she be wrong about” is the question I couldn’t stop asking myself. I’ve had trust issues ever since that very moment.
I feel like I understand the first half of your comment so incredibly well.
Especially with my own IQ of 131 (Mensa), chances are that my therapist would have been schooled but not be (as) current on recent developments. That is why I loath for my GP to refer me to some random psychiatrist without offering the ability to switch to another whenever I feel like it. I fear the psychiatrist would pathologize such a switching attempt into a Personality Disorder (e.g. call it "devalueing" or "grandiose") and jot that down for my GP or even block the attempt.
About medication and self-medicating: I remember coming off of my ADHD meds, marijuana etc. with a similar intention. Do you also fantasize about actually curing the ADHD by healing (the) underlying stresses instead of (possibly) just covering them up with medicine 24/7? So that you will never have to take a pill again (cuz f. all these side effects) and still be able to live a fulfilling life?
For me it's now been almost a decade without medicine, but with audiobooks, therapy and RUclips. And I'm still not sure what to make of it. Bit of a relief to see I'm not the only one who's done with medication and who just wants to figure out what may or may not be hiding underneath the surface before deciding on a lifetime of pills.
This is very interesting as usual Doctor Grande!! 💛...I really think I was misdiagnosed. I have a narrow interest on criminal minds, have no need for attention but talk about myself a lot because I try to relate to others, I feel empathy only sometimes when something really bad has happened -otherwise cognitive empathy only, I have bad misophonia and hate certain fabrics...maybe my chaotic teens looked like BPD, now I'm very different but these traits stick with me nevertheless
I miss these quality videos of you.
Hi Dr Grande, I have heard/read (it was a good source, I just can't remember where from now, its 4am in Australia:) that men are more likely to be diagnosed with ASD/ASPD/PTSD and women more likely to be diagnosed as Borderline Personality Disorder and a few others (Im trying to remember but I tjink the others for women more are depression? Anxiety? Things like Dependant Personality Disorder etc) Do you think it's because society biases of what "male" and "female" behaviour are or do you think it is a genuine biological difference? Also I have known a man who was diagnosed with Aspbergers years ago but now has been rediagnosed Borderline Personality Disorder and a woman who was the opposite! (Though she also did have PTSD and anxiety and bad depression) I think it's quite strange and would love you to address this (I think ASD was around 75% male diagnoses and Borderline was about this also?
Infants and toddlers show dominant "female brains" and "male brains," so it is indeed a real, observed human (and other apes') trait. There is a reason why violence has a gender: brains also have "genders."
You are right in what you have read and heard. The diagnosis of ASD has been based on traits for ASD in males and just these last 5-10 years one has understood that the traits for girls with ASD are quite different. Therefore girls have not been diagnosed before they get secondary disorders like anxiety, depression, bipolar, borderline etc. This is very sad because one will just medicate the secondary diagnosis without getting to the root of the problem and ASD does not require medication but accommodation and understanding. The last thing I hear is that one of the greatest experts in the area Tony Attwood is working on diagnostic criteria for girls.
I am an autistic woman and I personally would not refer to ASD as a "mental" disorder. First of all, autism broadly refers to one particular form of neuro divergence. People with ADHD are also neuro divergent. Some brains are just hardwired differently and so the way they perceive the world and communicate are seen as a pathology rather than a difference. Moreover, not all autistic people have ASD. My husband is autistic but it does not interfere with his quality of life. He would therefore not qualify for ASD diagnosis. But in my case, and for many autistic people, the disorder arises from trying to cope with a society that does not accommodate us. Literally the ABA therapy they give to autistic kids trains them to mask their autism so they can better "fit in" with "normal" people. They're taught not to stim in public, look people in the eye, and to suppress any behavior that comes naturally to them for the benefit of others who find it weird and uncomfortable. It is not their job to understand us, it is our job to reinforce the status quo. And it takes its toll, because keeping up the charade requires an immense cognitive effort. Daily. So it's not really a surprise that many autistic people develop a disorder when they are consistently expected to ignore their neuro divergence and pretend to be neurotypical just so people will accept us.
Being diagnosed with ASD Level 1, I cringe every time I see a headline that compares ASD empathy to these cluster B traits. I can't speak for anyone with cluster B traits, but I can speak for myself and say I hate it. As you probably know, ASD(L1) people tend to have a high degree of anxiety. In my case this is solely due to misreading others or being misread in social situations. For me, it's almost like I don't have the mental bandwidth to process all potential communication in real time. After a lifetime of missing something in body language or verbal communication, I feel mortified at not picking up those signals, when it was important. So in the moment, I may not appear to be empathetic, but when I go home and process the evening, I go "OMG, I have to call this person and make sure its clear that I understand." Apologize... whatever it takes. I think society (maybe even the clinical community) is totally misreading ASD actions in the moment as lack of empathy. I also see myself extremely observant of social rules for the common good. So if lying is so bad, why do we lie to people to spare their feelings? Shouldn't we all be strong enough to hear things we don't want to hear? Isn't telling the truth, in the end, more empathetic than lying?
Very interesting dr Todd. Interesting how with the questionnaire being not such a good tool. Poor insight, delusional, liars ...how can one expect an accurate assessment and evaluation. Nice presentation on autism too!
I am autistic and I think of it this way: An autistic person has trouble knowing what someone else is feeling, but once they do, they care. A person with anti-social personality disorder knows what other people are feeling, but they don't care.
This was fascinating, doc. When you commented that people with Cluster B PD's may understand why another person feels a certain way, but that they have little to no interest in affirming or responding to someone's feelings, it seemed like you hit my dilemma dead on. I can listen to someone tell me about their hurts and upsets and I seem empathetic--but inside I'm bored and disinterested.
Always thought asd yielded highly empathic individuals. Not sure whether cognitive or affective, but just how I've heard it.
I think people may report better behavior or whatever on the self report because they dont want to admit/see that they are struggling or that THEIR level of normal is different from the start
haha narcissists would know the "correct, socially acceptable" answer to a self evaluation of empathy so I wouldn't trust a test looking at that ever. they know how they should answer. do they actually feel empathy...probably not so much
everyone has empathy, narcissists just choose to not use it
Could you possibly do a video about Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder? It seems to have some similarities to Borderline personality disorder. The rage and rejection sensitivity seem to be traits of both disorders.
Thanks! 🙂
I have a adult son has severe autism with very little empathy. As a mother, I think it is major connection and attention deficit. My son recognizes emotions but it's not easy for him to process it. He is a lovable happy young man and I'm very blessed. Thanks for the topic! Oh, one more thing, do you think there is connection between bipolar and autism in families?
I masked it for years. Trained myself to look people in the eye but it took a lot to do it. A lot of my symptoms only manifest when highly stressed and I get complete sensory overload. I never coped with it at all as a child and teen. Abused a lot of drugs to switch my brain off from overload. Numbed myself to oblivion. Im now in my late 40s and cope much better without any substances. It took many years to get me this far.
Oooh I just started to watch and this is gunna be good ☺️ Hi Dr Grande ❤
Brilliant 👏
I experienced something which sounds quite like the theory of mind training used with kids who have ASD. I was however not at an age which the technique would be useful, the concept was misused in other ways too. During my ASD assessment one of the examiners expressed a fear of mannequins and I later found out my response was considered inappropriate as I was dismissive of her statement. The expression of emotion was fear instead of excitement or surprise and their criteria for a 'non autistic' response was not met when I didn't express sympathy or understanding of her fear. That is among many other issues which came up due to their incompetence and lack of experience in treating an autistic young adult and not a young child.
I also find it comical that cluster b uses things like the pcl-r and other assessments when diagnosing. Like, someone can understand the entire life cycle of someone and that their life IS entirely narcissistic or psychopathic or that bpd is likely valid, but these arbitrary assumptions that they can agree or disagree with statements in an assessment makes it painfully stupid to ask a psychopath if they care about their actions towards others (as an example). Whiiiiich may also explain another part of why women are less likely to be determined as this when you consider social acceptance for women frowns on certain traits so even the smallest amount of narcissistic traits would prevent a female from admitting this. that ego protection is a strange and powerful thing.
side note: ive realized they will admit it under a situation where they dont see harm in admitting it, but not when they assess themselves as being a problem if they admit it. So, ya know, perhaps rechecking opinions under difference situations.
particularly when feeling mad or like their control is lost already
Thanks
I would love to hear your analysis of Donald Trump. Some people say he's a narcissist, but in alot of ways he seems like he has more features of a psychopath; lack of real empathy of any kind, disregard for rules and the law, and alot of manipulation to get what he wants. He is constantly projecting onto others what he is doing himself and never appears to feel remorse for anything he does.
Over 200 psychiatrists and assorted experts already gave the world their assessment.
@@Desertphile he is whatever the media portays him as.
Dick Chaney is a psychopath Trump is a narcissist the difference is Dick Chaney knows we hate him and doesn't care he is rich and powerful trump gets upset at members of the public for criticising him to the point of demanding the first amendment be altered to restrict speach
We have empathy, we just express it differently from nonautistics. Being deductive, pattern thinking, goal oriented thinkers, we seek the fundamental cause of your troubles and provide a solution to eliminate the cause. Problem solved. Bad feelings all done. If we didn't care, we wouldn't bother. You're welcome.
-an autistic person
Dr. Grande, Question 1) do you have a video or theory on Alexithymia Question 2) does a person have a higher risk of primary or secondary Alexithymia if as a child (boys) suffered childhood emotional neglect (CEN) and CPTSD.
My husband’s emotional needs were not only ignored but resulted in physical abuse (beatings by paddle) for showing emotions his mom considered sinful (all of them) so there’s also a religious shame
associated with emotions.
Question 3) If your expertise includes Alexithymia, is it possible for a child In the circumstances above to develop an ‘alter’ that’s is alexithymic and the alexithymic response gets triggered in his marriage.
11 months after eloping with my 10 year best guy friend who I then dated for 2 years. He changed within 24 hour, progressively deteriorating mentally by the second month.
As lovingly as I could, discussed what I was experiencing and noticing (subtle emotion provoking behavior).
His personality was 100% consistent the 12 years prior as friends and 2 years dating . In fact, looking back it was a eerily consistent.
example conversation: Wife feels hurt when husband makes a certain comment regularly and want to bring it up in a healthy constructive way. The moment she begins, he displays Alexithymic symptoms, he begins to stutter, his verbiage speed dramatically slows down, his eyes become glazed and he looks away usually down and won’t make eye contact,
He repeats himself and asks for wife to slow down or repeat the question or issue.
In my opinion, he almost behaves like he’s autistim as well but I’m not an expert in that. The conversation Never completes because he becomes hypo-aroused and that means very sleepy and disassociated and it leaves the wife resentful.
He leaves the room goes to sleep or plays video games which drives me nuts at 46 years old, and it’s also an Distraction technique which is why I’m concerned about it, he says he needs several hours to process what I’ve said about something very simple.
most of the time he works it out in his own mind but then never Returns back to me to complete the conversation - he says it’s out of fear. It leaves me hanging emotionally.
The trigger origin is from extreme criticism and judgement by his parents. He was constantly manipulated by his ENFJ-A mother into expressing how he felt only to endure hours of berating and told his feelings were wrong and the answer was to be more righteous w God.
He was made to feel shame for having emotions and tricked into sharing them..
I am an empath with a trauma-based childhood of abandonment and childhood and adult sexual abuse. I don’t remember what it’s called but I have insecure attachment Relating to the constant change in behavior of my parents, particularly my mother who was loving and attentive when she wasn’t on drugs and then not mother when she was on drugs.
This is all hindsight as I have very few memories of most of my childhood but she was on off on off in her love.
We are in very deep trouble marriage wise. after 11 months of pure hell. I’m an empath, I pick up on the most subtle changes in a persons feeling pattern or personality patterns. I’ve watched him shift in and out of different moods or altars in one sentence and I cannot confront or discuss it with him because that means I need to bring something up about him to him which is emotional and a trigger, so I am stuck in a loop.
He is very aware that there is a serious serious problem and will do anything under the sun to help turn things around so he is a willing participant. He has a genius IQ also and I just don’t know what to do at this point.
I also have a theory that he has altars for each
Punished emotion. An Alter just for one emotion. That is mind blowing but the other night in an escalated discussion that should never have become an argument, I witnessed a narcissist Alter that he doesn’t acknowledge - says he was just being authoritative but I have it on recording audio.
I don’t think there is anyone in the psychology industry that I know of who will take this serious ...
we’ve tried one or two but they just weren’t committed. I have over 500 audios and what is shame for so many years of love to end because of this.
He’s trying very hard but I cannot be his wife and his therapist and his lover and his companion and on top of it he’s so dwarfed in emotional IQ I am lacking a partner that I can have a deep connection with except for when we are intimate.
That’s the interesting part. During intimacy, sex, there are no signs of any of this ... I theorize it’s because sex was not a part of his childhood.
I sure would love to hear back from you.
Reyanna reyannna Hudson at Gmail
I would sometimes literally try to put myself in another’s shoes to feel something because these emotions like empathy do not come naturally to me. I’m alone almost always, but have never felt lonely. Maybe it’s because my family is always nice to me, but in the sense of social life I don’t feel it’s a need for me, and I never had a lack besides not having friends. Even in my opinions, I was surprised how anti humanitarian people thought i was, but I couldn’t understand them. I can talk to people with confidence yet relationships are not something that stays for me, or ends bitterly. Something is different about me, but I have never found it distressing.
I am autistic and was not aware that I have a "mental disorder". I thought it was a "developmental disorder". I guess I think of the former as there being something wrong with the mind (perhaps chemicals) and the latter as something due to a problem with the brain.
I'd like to hear about empathy in those with AvPD.
How they can have empathy if they are _avoidant_ (and therefore always caring about themselves first - not in a proper way, ofc, but we are taking about a PD, so...)?
If I remember correctly, you've said in one of your videos that when narcissists get stripped of their narcissism as a result of treatment or for whatever reason, they become avoidant.
Doesn't that mean that AvPD may be looked at as a first stage of developing narcissism?
I always thought, that I had a lot of empathy and I would have given me 5/5 empathy points. ...one time I talked with my bestfriend about it, who laught at me and explained that it s hard to recognize my awesome empathy, when I usually get discusted and angry, when she cries. So....yeah, "asking" people questions related to theire "empathy level" doesn t sound very usefull to me.
An extremely interesting question: how about histrionics. They might be over-empathic.
The one I knew sure wasn't. Interesting topic though.
Not at all, they are actors.
Englehard Dinglefester I think you have a perspective of a PALS claimant! When we see our loved ones as being neglected it tends to change our perspective. Let’s say our mother was disabled and she needs to go to the toilet and the organisation doesn’t bother to provide adequate staffing and she soils herself, or some staff find the mother a burden and attention seeking, the son tends to blame the person that is left on their own running around trying to do everything to eleviate the suffering of person suffering because they are on the frontline. They don’t see the management strategy of leaving the front line struggling so that they quit or hurt themselves by illegal moving and handling techniques with too many patients and not enough staff! The mother then with 2 helpers and a frame tries to refuse to stand so the frontline staff strains themselves supporting the mothers back whilst she falls on the staff. Even when the mother can use a frame with the help of one person, she requires the attention of her husband to feel wanted and validated! When we talk to the mother, she gives totally different responses from the questions asked and doesn’t seem to understand. She may pretend she cannot stand with a frame when she can or doesn’t want to practice standing up so her mobility declines! She may cry constantly because she misses her husband and feels the need to sit where there are a lot of people because she doesn’t get many visitors and needs to be in a busy area so she feels better seeing people and feels included! The son maybe blames the frontline staff for hurting their cat! It’s as though the frontline staff have personally hated the cat in the eyes of the son, and have caused the cat suffering from a road accident even though their thinking is not right and the frontline staff were not involved! Maybe the son has worked with the frontline staff member previously and blames them because reporters were reporting them because of a witch hunt because the reporter was jealous of a non existent relationship between the frontline staff and a colleague. Maybe the son blames the frontline staff for him losing his job? These are all possibilities!
As far as the affordability of various tests, particularly in an academic study, it seems to me that it's less affordable in the long run to base your study or treatment on a metric that has too many flaws and downsides. Of course, the people paying for these things often don't actually care about this often times and that is really unfortunate because, if you're going to go to all the trouble of doing a study and invest all the care into treating someone, you want the best available metric to measure anything relevant to the disorder. It often seems like the world in upside down, inside out, and backwards though.
Hello- I have a question. I help support (in-home staff for adults with disabilities) a client with Cluster B/ASD/Hard of Hearing and they have recently came out as Trans. I am Empathic, and I have a very hard time supporting them (especially at this time concerning their identity). I get anxiety before our shift, feel used, feel agitated , and then relieved when I leave. Any pointers on mentally protecting myself, what phrases or methods are good to try to get them out of a hyper fixation/being rude/help them know themselves/activate curiosity in empathy towards others?
My autism is NOT a mental illness it is a neurological difference . It is inherited and sits on a very ancient gene. And I'm an empath .My current theory (still researching )is that the initial symptom between about 12 and 18 months when a child stops babbling/talking. Is actually the first meltdown/burnout when the child's senses are overwhelmed by the environment. I am not sure if this can be only sensory overload or empathic overload also. Certainly is the later in my family.
I believe Response 4 makes more sense than response 5, as why would you congratulate / feel good for someone when you don't know why? Surely understanding ought to come first, otherwise the empathy is not genuine.
How often do you see narcissistic personality combined with anti social personality disorder? I have been trying to figure out my husband for years now. I am also thinking ASD as his mother and sister seem to have the same disorder so thinking he inherited ASD. I so wish he would go to a doctor for diagnosis. His response to the few times he has spoken to a counselor is that they don't really care about him. He doesn't understand that the doctor or counselor is not there to be his friend.
I was diagnosed as a child with autism but am able to manipulate but didn't notice I was doing it. I've met people with autism but they don't seem to act or behave like me. I don't even adjust to the situation. At this point in observing to figure out what normal is. Honestly now if someone says something I'm likely to say something unrelated. I need to show some of my emails to someone and see what she says and open up a bit more.
I would be curious to know whether this expected range of responses varies across cultures.