My favourite bad move is from Tekken 7. It's Leroy bringing his dog out to have a 50% chance of attacking or 50% chance to just sit there looking like a cute, dumb bag of fur. It has long start-up and may not even work. I've won rounds with it and it feels amazing.
it's hilarious to me that arcsys was apparently too scared to make ky's fireball good on launch it's a basic fireball on a shotoclone in an anime fighter, legit how bad could it get
Honestly I think they should remove the CH recovery on projectiles in Strive. Then again I'm probably biased because I play Zato who has the best resourceless projectile in the game.
@@breadaholic6445 Eddie is a projectile technically. Even if normal fireballs get no CH recovery, Eddie summon n shit should definitely stay CH recovery lol
My favorite garbage move might be Dio's 623X with Stand on in Jojo HFTF. It's called "DIE!". Dio will send out the World to attack you from behind with full screen tracking. Except it's uh, really goddamn slow. I mean extremely slow. I think it might actually take real world seconds to reach you. You can just walk up to Dio from fullscreen and hit him for using this. The move whiffs if the opponent moves at all. Dio cannot move until the move is finished. I'm pretty sure it's not even a cross up. It's also negative incase the opponent does block it, somehow. It feels like it's just there to punish people for accidentally doing 6236X. Also if the opponent hits you while the move is out, you take double damage and you lose your stand.
you can actually make it attack sooner if the world reaches the Opponent. However the funniest part about it is how you just can't combo off of it, not does it knockdown. It's literally just there so that Dio could have a bad move (though his grab and guard cancel already fit that spot)
I think the reason they made Jiren’s command grab so slow is because since it’s literally just one button they didn’t want to make it too good of a move.
Labrys' "Brutal Swing" super from P4AU is my favorite "bad" move Its so, so bad in competitive play but the satisfaction of parrying an instakill with EX Brutal Swing and getting a oneshot is unmatched
One that stood out to me is Aang's neutral special in Nick All Stars Brawl. By default it's a decent edge-trapping move, him spinning his staff in front of him. Has good range, is fast, and can gimp some recoveries. But once he goes over 100% damage it changes to him activating the Avatar State, and he's surrounded by all four elements referencing when he fought Ozai at the end of the series. It's him at his strongest...except the move doesn't do great damage, has NO kill power, and leaves him super vulnerable if you miss with it. I have no idea what the move's good for. Maybe they improved it in later patches but it stuck out to me as like a punishment for taking damage, making one of his better moves way worse.
That's really interesting. I really enjoy the idea of seeing more moves that don't add much to the character mechanically, but help show off their personality and story... A good example is DBFZ, which is full of not-so-great moves that are always fun to see because they are a reference to something that happens in the show.
My favorite bad move is probably Terumi counter super from Blazblue because you spend 50% meter for a counter that loses to lows, some dps, attack from behind him and some aerial moves, but when it works, oh man I just make the biggest smile that you could imagine, specially because I know this super sucks.
Favorite bad move? Dan Hibiki's Super Gohadouken from MvC2, goes no where, does like mediocre damage, and spends a meter, but DAMN does it feel good to kill with it, especially how he says it
A strong contender for one of the worst moves i feel like should be dio's 623/a/b/c in the capcom jojo game. It takes literally 2-3 seconds to connect just for a knockdown while leaving you defenseless through the whole duration, not even mentioning that it makes you take significantly increased damage to any move
An extra bad thing about Margret's "reversal" in P4A is that even when you hit with it, it kind of leaves you in a bad spot. The opponent recovers above and in front of you at angle she's not well-equipped to contest them from (her anti-air is kind of slow if the target isn't right on top of her, and only the first hit is air unblockable, the head invul is hard to time effectively, and it's pretty rough on whiff), and top characters like Mitsuru and Adachi have really strong jumping moves from that position. So you could suceed with your insanely risky "get off me" option, only to wind up right back where you started pretty easily. Ran into this when I picked her up after the game got rollback, and oh boy, was it unpleasant. It does say something about her that she's one of the game's strongeat characters deapite such a glaring weakness, though.
Its more a case of the weakness being necessary, as her pressure with persona displacement is so insanely good she needs to have the worst anti-pressure move in the game to make up for it
A good example for me in Strive is Heavy Mob Cemetery with Sol. Its a slow telegraphed command grab super. You never see it at high level play. But every time I play a friend he tries to get it in the set. Maybe 1 out of every 10 attempts but its so hype when it works that its worth being in the game.
Yeah that one for situational moments to catch them off guard I have some nice clip moments there was one this leo try to parry it oof ggs lol good times 🤣 it just sucks you can't combo off it and it so easy to avoid to jump out of it not worth it at high level but it is fun move .
@@damienlee4992 You actually can combo off of it with RC, and it's actually an incredible combo starter if you have meter to burn - Sol can do 343 midscreen and 379 in the corner. The problem, of course, is that none of those things fix the major problem with the move, that it has incredibly massive startup, can't be comboed INTO, and on reaction. The problem has never been the damage, it's been landing it. And this is only exacerbated by requiring the opponent to have 340+ health while you have full tension, AKA you pretty much need to land a gold burst to try it. There are some valid uses for it (notably you can punish a move that is super minus, like most raw supers), but in general it's super situational.
A lot of your picks remind of what Bafael said in his 3rd Strike Taunt Primer vid: "So I'd probably call [Remy's] taunt the worst in the game mechanically, but that just makes it the best one when trying to tilt your opponent, right?"
Iirc, cyclops' command grab was actually his strongest-hitting move back in X-Men CotA. With MvC2 being MvC2, I'm not surprised they just slapped it in, reduced its damage significantly, and called it a day.
Yup, also in XMvSF it was really good, it wasn't even a charge move, i think the input was just back forward and fierce. It had somewhat of a startup but with his one button fireball you could combo it. This move was really nasty in the corner.
I'll never understand the cult around MvC2, I always felt like it wasn't very well thought or put together, definitely not balanced and too chaotic for my taste.
In 98UM it was significantly buffed. Orochi Leona could move immediately after throwing it out, while the regular Leona could move shortly after. Startup and recovery frames were also significantly reduced so that while it's still slow, it's no longer a free punish from anywhere. Orochi Leona's version is practically safe when spaced properly and is actually quite good. The problem with the regular Leona's version is you simply had no reason to be doing it altogether even with its buffs because you're suddenly killing off whatever offensive momentum you built to throw out a projectile where the payoff is if your opponent rolled past it into your punish.
Jagi in HNK has a command grab super that only works on Shin, on hit it decrease both of his meter, and the Shin player can mash to reduce the amount they lose. It’s pointless, but so unique that I’d be sad if it wasn’t there.
I usually don't comment video suggestions but while watching this I was thinking about "Top 10 most soul crushing nerfs" Just reminiscing about my days playing Juri in sf4 where I could jump back into dive kick, or Seths HK crossup. Times be a changin
Ryu’s Shoryu-Hadoken thing from UMVC3 is so terrible I didn’t even know he had that move in his hit until recently when I was fooling around in training mode. Can’t combo into it, can’t combo out of it, less than desirable damage, slow, leaves the opponent unreasonably high in the air, etc. I think it’s supposed to be a reference to Cyclops’ Gene Splice attack from Mvc2 which is cool though.
Leonas boomerang in 98 is so bad that you can get hit and knocked down twice by it and still recover and punish it. If there is every a part two (hope so, great vid), then I hope you put this move in.
23:40 Actually I don't remember specifically when but I remember there being a really high level tournament where Arslan Ash (arguably best Tekken player) landed this. Was hype af because of how risky the move is but yeah it can definitely be used. There's a LOT of entirely useless moves in Tekken but most of them are pretty boring so it's nice to hear about this big, not horrendously slow launcher that's still pretty terrible
LK's picks seem to be moves that almost actively harms you when you use it while JM's picks moves that are useless but fun or have very niche applications. It was confusing at first but once I watch with this mindset, it makes much more sense.
One I always remember feeling like a terrible move was Shadow's "Shadow Punch" from One Must Fall: 2097. Shadow is already considered pretty bad, their projectiles are perishable on block from full screen and this move was one of their projectiles. It's been a while but it felt slower than Shadow Kick, another projectile move that at least hit low (as One Must Fall did not have overheads as far as I could tell). So it was a slow move that did a little bit of damage and was incredibly risky to use, despite how cool the concept of the character was. They were basically Noob Saibot's "shadow clone" gimmick before Noob had that, which is neat.
That Krillin move reminds me of the Kensou super in KOF 97 & 98, where he spends 1 bar and recovers around 1 punch worth of health meter, but the recovery time of the move is 1+ seconds. And Kensou also got a max version of the move which costs 2 bars and the recovery time is 3+ seconds, plus it restores LESS health meter. It's like Dan's taunt super that basically serves no purpose but to taunt your opponent. But Kensou's is double qcb punch so you are likely to pull the move on accident at some point if Kensou is your main character. There are also a few other ridiculously shitty moves in the KOF series that have no practical use but to annoy the player.
Kasumi's Tiger uppercut is a reflection of Omen fist, which has all of the downsides you describe as well. These moves are primarily used as combo tools and not normal launchers. It also crushes mids. Which is an extremely powerful and rare property.
I do like the differentiation with Krillin's move being "bad" but still "fun"/"funny". Correct that it's a bad move, but when it IS used (even if the opponent picks it up) it creates a more interesting gamestate and experience.
AC+R Sol's Dragon Install 2nd. A permanent DI sounds cool until it has a 5 second startup, costs full meter, has a ludicrously long input, and drains your health to 1 within a few seconds. But it's still really cool, i would absolutely use it more if the startup alone didnt just get you killed.
I play Darkstalkers casually with my friend and I don't think I've ever landed the bomb lmao I think it's more of a psychological strategy, throw the bomb and just forget about it while they opponent will try to multitask by instinct and pay less attention to you
I love this, only move I would've added is Ganondorf Up-Tilt, because it has no utility and unlike his Warlock Punch it lacks super armor, also, how did they give anakaris a move that is neg on hit lmao
Khan from Heritage for the future has 2 aerials that are exactly the same except one just has worse frame data, you quite literally have no reason to use the move 💀
I played one of the best krillens the other day he was doing ex senzu bean in combos so I dont think it's bad it's just not being used to its fullest potential in my opinion.
Tbh you could fill this list with GG supers, almost all of them (pre-Strive, when most became just a wallbreak combo ender or desperate reversal option) because there's just so many other good uses for meter that you'd never wanna use like, Tyrant Rave when that's two GF YRC/FRCs you could be doing, or even just a DP RRC
I'm so glad to see Cyclops command throw on this list. Kinda miss the days when Capcom decided to give Cyclops someone else's signature move every game.
Deadpool's lvl 3 hyper combo in MvC3. It's so memorable since it's a 4th wall break. But it's a counter that spends three bars on a character that plays full screen. Wesker also has a counter lvl 1, but you actually see it because he weaves in and out so he can bait and get a lot out of it.
I appreciate this video and I think I can help. There are two types of moves in all fighting games: viable moves (these are practical moves that you would use in a serious tournament setting or for a better win/loss ratio in ranked) non-viable moves (these are impractical, but usually fun to look at moves that you can use for casuals or just to mess around) It's interesting that you spoke of Tekken at the end with Kazumi. I've been playing 3d fighters for some 20 years and I can tell you first hand that Tekken is notorious for having very few viable, tournament level moves across all characters. Another move you may want to mention from Tekken 7 is Miguel's 1 hit KO. It's a 1 hit, unblockable mid KO punch but the startup is something like 100 frames. Miguel laugh's and walks forward slowly then pulls back and BOOM. It's a funny move, but not of any real use in serious tournament play.
I think Wolverine's Swiss Cheese in UMVC3 should be on the list. Not only is it a bad move on its own, its existence is actively detrimental to Wolverine. Because it's a mash move (you need to mash an attack button to use it), Swiss Cheese will come out when you press buttons too quickly. That means that you have to be extremely precise when you plink/wave dash, and you have to consciously slow down your button presses when pressuring. Or else Swiss Cheese will come out and you get punished. I swear Capcom only added this move in Ultimate to indirectly nerf Wolverine.
This could make for a good series. You could team up with players from various types of fighting games (3D, anime, footsies, etc) and talk about the best and worst moves.
hey jm if you want a mini-game bomb type move, the best example I know is in the platform fighter Slap City -- Goddess of Explosions side special it's a fireball that both characters can knock around indefinitely until it flies off screen or hits someone, and it gets faster with every hit, and is stronger the faster it is. Banger move. also competitively viable.
Soul Calibur 5 Ezio's 6K2 is a hilariously bad useful move. It's a barely reactable standing low with ambiguous startup that's launch punishable (-18) on hit. It's only saving grace is that as a standalone move it did 15%, so you could toss it out as a game win. But if you didn't win off it and your opponent knew, the punish you would take for trying could easily kill you (Especially when considering ring out potential on launch punishes)
Talking about IKs, when P4AU came out on switch my friends ran a side event for it at their smash locals. I dominated up to grand's because it was mostly just smash players. However, when I got to the last round of the set to win I was extremely ahead so for fun I picked my hands off my controller to get awakening boost. Then proceeded to IK for the win. They were so hyped that the game lasted a solid few more weeks in our play group than it would have if that hadn't happened. Never would have got it off on my actual fgc friends but was hype nonetheless xD
kohaku's drug install in AACC. the reason why it is useless because it's a really long startup and costs too much meter. Also has very niche ways to setup that aren't even worth cause you can do poison Johnny setup for better use of 150 meter
This was a fun video to watch, even for someone like me that only watches fighting games but doesn't play any, interesting moves to point out and interesting perspectives on what makes them bad moves. Also for those that don;t read the description but might read this comment, Lord Knight made a similar video on his channel, jmcrofts is also featured in that one but it is about broken moves instead of bad ones.
Not a DB player so feel free to disregard my take on it, but that bean does seem quite handy if Krillin is your only remaining character, it might be a weak move but I wouldn't call it terrible as it does have some circumstantial use. Also my favorite terrible move is Kuma/Panda Fatal Wind which unfortunately was removed in Tekken 7. It's unblockable and a instant kill but has around 100 frames of startup and the range is so bad the opponent basically have to walk into it
In Melty Blood Actress Again, Len has a "projectile" where she releases a kitten that slowly walks towards the opponent. The kitten has about 3 different colors and only the golden one does a sliver of damage. The others do nothing, so it's a gamble...
Just ACTIVATING IK in Guilty Gear puts a pressure on both players that is hilarious to watch. "Oh you're really gonna try it? On me? Alright tough guy" is a beautiful thing to behold especially if they slip up and get hit by it.
In regards to Jiren's 5H, it's meant to be used in stagger pressure. That's an issue I find with the FGC, they love to trash on moves that were clearly designed to be option select, and they either don't use them properly, or get destroyed by it.
surprised noone mentioned sol's dragon install 2nd in accent core, it's like a 20 frame start up move with 170ish recovery frames that basically kills you with how fast it drains your health AND it costs 100 meter. it's like potentially the worst move in fighting game history
even dragon install is bad in this game, it's very funny but bad. The cherry on top with DI2nd besides what you said is that it kills your meter gain as well. and given the input it almost feel like even the dev dont want you to use it lol
Some moves that really came to mind for me: - Zangief's Tundra Storm (especially when it was still dp+P instead of PP). Easily one of the most situational moves in SF history, and - Heidern's Kill Bringer reversal (but sure wins for style points however, especially since it heals him as well). - Leona's I-Slasher in KOF 97-98. Good grief this move was basically the equivalent of giving your opponent a handicap. Even if it hits your payoff wasn't worth anything. Her Earring Bomb ranged projectile is another stinker, but at least it's not completely useless. - Sogetsu Kazama's immobilizing qcf+S bubble projectile when using the Slash/Shura version. It's so slow to start that your opponent literally has time to run up to you from the other end of the screen and punish you. Sure, if it does hit you get a hard punish, but they'd literally have to be asleep to not see this coming. - Ramon's Tiger Lord > Cross Chop move in KOF 2002/NeoWave. Unlike the other moves listed here, it's not actually a bad move. It's however, completely redundant when in 2002 Ramon gained a new move called Force of Will which has the same startup animation, covers the same range with the same attack animation that turns into a grab for more damage and is unblockable to boot, while still being able to hit an airborne opponent. So in other words, Force of Will was the exact same move but better and unblockable, so the Cross Chop just felt needless. Thankfully in KOF XI it was revamped so that the Cross Chop is faster and goes full screen with a better air to air hitbox, so its overlaps with the Force of Will were mostly gone in XI.
One that comes to mind is Alex's Spiral DDT from 3rd Strike. It's a move so rarely used that people who don't play him probably forget it even exists. Super telegraphed and punishable since he's airborne, and whiffs on crouching opponents. Even though it's bad, it is really fun to just throw it out every once in a while and catch people off guard
I'd say that on launch you could put the majority of Jiren's entire moveset on this list. As someone who suffered through maining him at that time I can safely say that this character was absolute garbage lmao
@23:52 I've seen Ulsan hit fools with df2 MANY times. It's a REALLY good whiff punisher and you get hella combos off it. Also 18 frames is NOT slow in Tekken terms, considering our fastest moves are 10 frame and 15 is launchable for most of the cast.
It is surprising how often you can get Jirens grab in DBFZ. The amount I’ve hit it is a shit ton more then how much I’ve hit it. Idk if it’s cause they just forget it exists or some other reason but it’s clutched for me so much that I can’t not love it
Krillin's move is useful because you can throw it at your opponent in the middle of your combo. While it may heal his blue health, the mental damage from your sheer superiority will never heal.
To this day, what I feel like they should have done with jirens 5h was give it a charge function like some other normals. Just pressing the button makes it a normal heavy hit like everyone else, but holding it turns it into the command grab. It would justify the slow startup while creating a unique frame trap situation. Then again I can't say if this is a bad idea or not, but other characters have more toxic options.
Hey man! Some challenge for you here :) Make a video about strongest (or one of the strongest in roster) characters in FG with the worst move in the game at the same time.
I think Krillin bean throw is niche but okay because you can toss a bean to allies in the back a recover their blue life. Depending on what they got hit by or if they got caught in a combo that could be a lot of blue life
Videos like this always make me wonder how long they take to make and how they were made. Did you guys have pre-recorded scenes of the moves in question, or did you load up each game separately and perform the move live in front of each other? If the latter, did you already have the games running, or was it like "hang on, let me boot up this game, training mode, character select, etc."
I know smash is not a fighting game in the traditional sense, but when he added Sephiroth( a fast character in his verse) they made sure Seph had all the starying and ending lag in the world. Imagine using all these bad moves together as a character's moveset.
If we're talking Instant Kills too, +R Dizzy's is absolutely unusable. Not only is the input insanely difficult to do, but you're rewarded with a nearly 2 full second IK startup: too long to use after a stun combo. That move has 0 value whatsoever.
Cyclops command grab is good to perform during an assist. They block the assist and get grabbed you can scoop / bounce them OTG .I think it sometimes has a use case on assists as well to have a birthday party.
Jiren's grab is so slow compared to others because of the tools he has aside from that. With his many frametraps and 4 different counters you can't just mash back at him because you may get countered and lose half your health bar as a result. This makes the existence of his grab in context with his entire kit much scarier than the move itself.
Smash has a few stinker moves in the series. In 64 and Melee, for example, they quite literally forgot to put the finishing hit box of Luigi’s dash attack in the game. Also in Melee, either Mario’s or Luigi’s (I forget which one) downward-angled forward tilt is entirely useless, not even launching at 999% In Brawl, Meta Knight (the best character in that game by far) had a horrible rapid jab. There was no reason to use it instead of his forward tilt and it also had a random hit behind Meta Knight that serves no purpose.
Yoshi's double suicide is probably the worst move in any game, his regular suicide is actually decent and has setups and combo use for high damage but the double suicide is so useless you have to space a ridiculously telegraphed slow running move that the first hit whiffs and somehow have the opponent get hit by the second hit
I think a good one would be Akiras grab in dengeki bunko, they for whatever reason thought it'd be a good idea to give him an obvious mix tool but make it a duckable hit throw, it's not necessarily a bad move but it has literally no use
I honestly think krillin senzu bean is pretty good, at least if I am right that senzu bean can be used on allies that are tagged out. Imagine a scenario you get happy birthday but the opponent doesn’t kill your standby character, or you need to wait for a character to heal a ton of health before switching them in. senzu bean immediately restores that ally’s health. So there is no more risk of being snapped out and losing all that health. Even if krillin dies as a result that character is now at a good amount of health. Even then it saves sparking as a resource to heal blue health. You really going waste something as op as sparking for purely blue health? When sparking provides so many things, purely for blue health is a waste unless the character is solo imo. It’s either to shift momentum, not deal with a mixup, or save a character. I don’t think it’s necessarily bad, just situational and not often utilized
I will say that Krillin's Senzu Bean is a fairly useful move. But not in early or mid game, but in late game. As once your Spark is gone and Krillin is your final character, one raw level 3 would bring any other character down to their last leg, but Krillin is the only character who has a chance to help himself. Plus, you can make it as his assist, and that way have Krillin be just your shield against Raw level 3's, atleast ones you would survive
I think it's okay that there are bad moves, but I think they could get the best of both worlds by buffing them. For example Warlock Punch in Smash Bros is totally useless in competitive play, but very cool in casual play. If they buffed the move, they could make it useable in competitive play while still keeping it cool in casual play
Was a blast doing this with your Lord Crofts 🙏
I'm always happy to hear you talk about fighting games, Knight
Its fantastic that you guys are now working together instead of stealing each others video ideas all the time :D
You forgot about hemi jack my lord knight 🛐
Series?
I could tell you put a lot of thought into your picks, nicely done.
My favourite bad move is from Tekken 7. It's Leroy bringing his dog out to have a 50% chance of attacking or 50% chance to just sit there looking like a cute, dumb bag of fur. It has long start-up and may not even work. I've won rounds with it and it feels amazing.
There's nothing more satisfying than ending a round calling stupid ass Sugar to bite some ankles!
It's still awful in 8 but Sugar is cute so I try to do it once a round regardless. You know. The moral victory.
Might as well add Yoshimitsu’s harakiri attack to it then
Hey, Sugar is your most damaging launcher if you have pimp cane
@@zelassinHarakiri actually has a bit of use with reading wakeups at the wall, if the opponent doesn't stay down they get stabbied
it's hilarious to me that arcsys was apparently too scared to make ky's fireball good on launch
it's a basic fireball on a shotoclone in an anime fighter, legit how bad could it get
Honestly I think they should remove the CH recovery on projectiles in Strive. Then again I'm probably biased because I play Zato who has the best resourceless projectile in the game.
@@happycamperds9917 wait am i dumb? What projectile does zato have?
@@breadaholic6445 Eddie is a projectile technically. Even if normal fireballs get no CH recovery, Eddie summon n shit should definitely stay CH recovery lol
@@NeoBoneGirl but he said resourceless projectile, eddie is a resource
@Breadaholic you need to use meter for Eddie?
I haven't played the series in a long time, I sure hope they didn't change him that much. 😕
I'm surprised Leona's boomerang toss from 97-98 did not make the list, the move was like, -150 on hit or something
First move that came to mind. Everything else is top tier movement compared to Leona's boomerang
That's like...almost 2 and a half seconds which is basically centuries in Fighting Game Time
My favorite garbage move might be Dio's 623X with Stand on in Jojo HFTF. It's called "DIE!".
Dio will send out the World to attack you from behind with full screen tracking. Except it's uh, really goddamn slow. I mean extremely slow. I think it might actually take real world seconds to reach you. You can just walk up to Dio from fullscreen and hit him for using this. The move whiffs if the opponent moves at all. Dio cannot move until the move is finished. I'm pretty sure it's not even a cross up. It's also negative incase the opponent does block it, somehow. It feels like it's just there to punish people for accidentally doing 6236X.
Also if the opponent hits you while the move is out, you take double damage and you lose your stand.
you can actually make it attack sooner if the world reaches the Opponent. However the funniest part about it is how you just can't combo off of it, not does it knockdown. It's literally just there so that Dio could have a bad move (though his grab and guard cancel already fit that spot)
My favourite character in hftf, hol horse, has a grab which is punishable on hit by some (if not most) characters.
I love playing him but it hurts
A guard cancel being punishable on hit is just sad LOL
I think the reason they made Jiren’s command grab so slow is because since it’s literally just one button they didn’t want to make it too good of a move.
its funny to land tho
@@dizzymoosic Now it's one of it's great mix up tools.
People still get grabbed by it lol
Make it slow bcus is can be vanished
The existence of that simple grab is the reason he can stagger you
Labrys' "Brutal Swing" super from P4AU is my favorite "bad" move
Its so, so bad in competitive play but the satisfaction of parrying an instakill with EX Brutal Swing and getting a oneshot is unmatched
It’s based on Ralf’s Galactica Phantom (pre-XII), and yeah, it’s damn satisfying to land properly
PURE dopamine. Love that move.
One that stood out to me is Aang's neutral special in Nick All Stars Brawl. By default it's a decent edge-trapping move, him spinning his staff in front of him. Has good range, is fast, and can gimp some recoveries. But once he goes over 100% damage it changes to him activating the Avatar State, and he's surrounded by all four elements referencing when he fought Ozai at the end of the series. It's him at his strongest...except the move doesn't do great damage, has NO kill power, and leaves him super vulnerable if you miss with it. I have no idea what the move's good for. Maybe they improved it in later patches but it stuck out to me as like a punishment for taking damage, making one of his better moves way worse.
They changed it so you do an input now.
It's a lol, troll move now.
That's really interesting. I really enjoy the idea of seeing more moves that don't add much to the character mechanically, but help show off their personality and story... A good example is DBFZ, which is full of not-so-great moves that are always fun to see because they are a reference to something that happens in the show.
Well yeah. Characterisation trumps "how good is this in the meta" most of the time for me.
My favorite bad move is probably Terumi counter super from Blazblue because you spend 50% meter for a counter that loses to lows, some dps, attack from behind him and some aerial moves, but when it works, oh man I just make the biggest smile that you could imagine, specially because I know this super sucks.
50 meter is like 20 to terumi
Favorite bad move? Dan Hibiki's Super Gohadouken from MvC2, goes no where, does like mediocre damage, and spends a meter, but DAMN does it feel good to kill with it, especially how he says it
You forgot to mention that if you die on a senzu bean it revives you which is hilarious
A strong contender for one of the worst moves i feel like should be dio's 623/a/b/c in the capcom jojo game. It takes literally 2-3 seconds to connect just for a knockdown while leaving you defenseless through the whole duration, not even mentioning that it makes you take significantly increased damage to any move
Dio has also one of the worst grabs, being punishable on hit since you can ground tech before he recovers
Was hoping to find this in the video
@@aseemmateen7696 Hol horse also suffers from this.
An extra bad thing about Margret's "reversal" in P4A is that even when you hit with it, it kind of leaves you in a bad spot. The opponent recovers above and in front of you at angle she's not well-equipped to contest them from (her anti-air is kind of slow if the target isn't right on top of her, and only the first hit is air unblockable, the head invul is hard to time effectively, and it's pretty rough on whiff), and top characters like Mitsuru and Adachi have really strong jumping moves from that position. So you could suceed with your insanely risky "get off me" option, only to wind up right back where you started pretty easily. Ran into this when I picked her up after the game got rollback, and oh boy, was it unpleasant.
It does say something about her that she's one of the game's strongeat characters deapite such a glaring weakness, though.
Its more a case of the weakness being necessary, as her pressure with persona displacement is so insanely good she needs to have the worst anti-pressure move in the game to make up for it
A good example for me in Strive is Heavy Mob Cemetery with Sol. Its a slow telegraphed command grab super. You never see it at high level play. But every time I play a friend he tries to get it in the set. Maybe 1 out of every 10 attempts but its so hype when it works that its worth being in the game.
Yeah that one for situational moments to catch them off guard I have some nice clip moments there was one this leo try to parry it oof ggs lol good times 🤣 it just sucks you can't combo off it and it so easy to avoid to jump out of it not worth it at high level but it is fun move .
Best way to use it is to roman cancel it and then do comman grab.
@@elkmeatenjoyer3409 the forbidden mix
@@damienlee4992 You actually can combo off of it with RC, and it's actually an incredible combo starter if you have meter to burn - Sol can do 343 midscreen and 379 in the corner. The problem, of course, is that none of those things fix the major problem with the move, that it has incredibly massive startup, can't be comboed INTO, and on reaction. The problem has never been the damage, it's been landing it. And this is only exacerbated by requiring the opponent to have 340+ health while you have full tension, AKA you pretty much need to land a gold burst to try it.
There are some valid uses for it (notably you can punish a move that is super minus, like most raw supers), but in general it's super situational.
A lot of your picks remind of what Bafael said in his 3rd Strike Taunt Primer vid: "So I'd probably call [Remy's] taunt the worst in the game mechanically, but that just makes it the best one when trying to tilt your opponent, right?"
Leona's cutter projectile should definitely be a contender for the worst move in a fighting game
Iirc, cyclops' command grab was actually his strongest-hitting move back in X-Men CotA. With MvC2 being MvC2, I'm not surprised they just slapped it in, reduced its damage significantly, and called it a day.
Yup, also in XMvSF it was really good, it wasn't even a charge move, i think the input was just back forward and fierce. It had somewhat of a startup but with his one button fireball you could combo it. This move was really nasty in the corner.
I'll never understand the cult around MvC2, I always felt like it wasn't very well thought or put together, definitely not balanced and too chaotic for my taste.
Leona's I-Slasher from KoF 97/98. They never ever gave her this move ever again, and with good reason.
Kof 99 kyo’s jumping 1 2 punch. Absolute garbage. (Reverse hado HP).
In 98UM it was significantly buffed. Orochi Leona could move immediately after throwing it out, while the regular Leona could move shortly after. Startup and recovery frames were also significantly reduced so that while it's still slow, it's no longer a free punish from anywhere. Orochi Leona's version is practically safe when spaced properly and is actually quite good. The problem with the regular Leona's version is you simply had no reason to be doing it altogether even with its buffs because you're suddenly killing off whatever offensive momentum you built to throw out a projectile where the payoff is if your opponent rolled past it into your punish.
Jagi in HNK has a command grab super that only works on Shin, on hit it decrease both of his meter, and the Shin player can mash to reduce the amount they lose. It’s pointless, but so unique that I’d be sad if it wasn’t there.
I usually don't comment video suggestions but while watching this I was thinking about "Top 10 most soul crushing nerfs"
Just reminiscing about my days playing Juri in sf4 where I could jump back into dive kick, or Seths HK crossup.
Times be a changin
This is SUS
Fun fact: in UMVC3 Palette swap Cyclops can combo off his command throw very easily!
Oh in like a mod?
@@guy229 yea it’s a mod. They had to buff it cause it was ass
Ryu’s Shoryu-Hadoken thing from UMVC3 is so terrible I didn’t even know he had that move in his hit until recently when I was fooling around in training mode. Can’t combo into it, can’t combo out of it, less than desirable damage, slow, leaves the opponent unreasonably high in the air, etc. I think it’s supposed to be a reference to Cyclops’ Gene Splice attack from Mvc2 which is cool though.
wow i haven't thought about this move in 11 years
It's basically a taunt at this point
Leonas boomerang in 98 is so bad that you can get hit and knocked down twice by it and still recover and punish it. If there is every a part two (hope so, great vid), then I hope you put this move in.
23:40 Actually I don't remember specifically when but I remember there being a really high level tournament where Arslan Ash (arguably best Tekken player) landed this. Was hype af because of how risky the move is but yeah it can definitely be used. There's a LOT of entirely useless moves in Tekken but most of them are pretty boring so it's nice to hear about this big, not horrendously slow launcher that's still pretty terrible
Not a single mention of Dio's "die" from Heritage for the Future that move is actually useless
As someone who played Street Fighter IV religiously, I never seen Vega's super combo until now.
I mean at least it does damage, what about vega sky high claw? Thats pretty much "kill me" the move
LK's picks seem to be moves that almost actively harms you when you use it while JM's picks moves that are useless but fun or have very niche applications. It was confusing at first but once I watch with this mindset, it makes much more sense.
That second Cyclops charge move that everyone thinks they haven't seen actually DOES show up in the evo 2k7 jwong cyke comeback
One I always remember feeling like a terrible move was Shadow's "Shadow Punch" from One Must Fall: 2097. Shadow is already considered pretty bad, their projectiles are perishable on block from full screen and this move was one of their projectiles. It's been a while but it felt slower than Shadow Kick, another projectile move that at least hit low (as One Must Fall did not have overheads as far as I could tell). So it was a slow move that did a little bit of damage and was incredibly risky to use, despite how cool the concept of the character was. They were basically Noob Saibot's "shadow clone" gimmick before Noob had that, which is neat.
Wolverine's Berserker Rage in UMVC3 is a master class in how not to design a special move
The whole time I was thinking of how swiss cheese turned me off wolverine when I started to learn the game.
@@wazzledog1007 Swiss cheese was strictly made to prevent mashing.
@@seokkyunhong8812 Yup. I wanna mash lol.
Great collab you guys are both in my top 5 FGC RUclipsrs. 💪🏾✌🏾🤟🏾
That Krillin move reminds me of the Kensou super in KOF 97 & 98, where he spends 1 bar and recovers around 1 punch worth of health meter, but the recovery time of the move is 1+ seconds. And Kensou also got a max version of the move which costs 2 bars and the recovery time is 3+ seconds, plus it restores LESS health meter. It's like Dan's taunt super that basically serves no purpose but to taunt your opponent. But Kensou's is double qcb punch so you are likely to pull the move on accident at some point if Kensou is your main character. There are also a few other ridiculously shitty moves in the KOF series that have no practical use but to annoy the player.
Kasumi's Tiger uppercut is a reflection of Omen fist, which has all of the downsides you describe as well. These moves are primarily used as combo tools and not normal launchers.
It also crushes mids. Which is an extremely powerful and rare property.
Yup. Exactly.
I do like the differentiation with Krillin's move being "bad" but still "fun"/"funny". Correct that it's a bad move, but when it IS used (even if the opponent picks it up) it creates a more interesting gamestate and experience.
80% of Pot's moves in GG Missing Link qualify for this video.
Moves that are only included to make input harder.
e.g. SFV Urien's f+HP (reactable overhead) when his neutral HP is always the one you want.
AC+R Sol's Dragon Install 2nd. A permanent DI sounds cool until it has a 5 second startup, costs full meter, has a ludicrously long input, and drains your health to 1 within a few seconds.
But it's still really cool, i would absolutely use it more if the startup alone didnt just get you killed.
I play Darkstalkers casually with my friend and I don't think I've ever landed the bomb lmao
I think it's more of a psychological strategy, throw the bomb and just forget about it while they opponent will try to multitask by instinct and pay less attention to you
I love this, only move I would've added is Ganondorf Up-Tilt, because it has no utility and unlike his Warlock Punch it lacks super armor, also, how did they give anakaris a move that is neg on hit lmao
Khan from Heritage for the future has 2 aerials that are exactly the same except one just has worse frame data, you quite literally have no reason to use the move 💀
It's his light and medium aerial, with the medium one being the pointless one.
I played one of the best krillens the other day he was doing ex senzu bean in combos so I dont think it's bad it's just not being used to its fullest potential in my opinion.
Tbh you could fill this list with GG supers, almost all of them (pre-Strive, when most became just a wallbreak combo ender or desperate reversal option) because there's just so many other good uses for meter that you'd never wanna use like, Tyrant Rave when that's two GF YRC/FRCs you could be doing, or even just a DP RRC
I'm so glad to see Cyclops command throw on this list. Kinda miss the days when Capcom decided to give Cyclops someone else's signature move every game.
Deadpool's lvl 3 hyper combo in MvC3. It's so memorable since it's a 4th wall break. But it's a counter that spends three bars on a character that plays full screen.
Wesker also has a counter lvl 1, but you actually see it because he weaves in and out so he can bait and get a lot out of it.
At 9:08, his face when he realizes that you can actually fill your regular life bar too with Krillin's senzu bean is hilarious 😭😭
Maybe the real terrible moves are the friends we made along the way.
I appreciate this video and I think I can help.
There are two types of moves in all fighting games:
viable moves (these are practical moves that you would use in a serious tournament setting or for a better win/loss ratio in ranked)
non-viable moves (these are impractical, but usually fun to look at moves that you can use for casuals or just to mess around)
It's interesting that you spoke of Tekken at the end with Kazumi. I've been playing 3d fighters for some 20 years and I can tell you first hand that Tekken is notorious for having very few viable, tournament level moves across all characters. Another move you may want to mention from Tekken 7 is Miguel's 1 hit KO. It's a 1 hit, unblockable mid KO punch but the startup is something like 100 frames. Miguel laugh's and walks forward slowly then pulls back and BOOM. It's a funny move, but not of any real use in serious tournament play.
I think Wolverine's Swiss Cheese in UMVC3 should be on the list. Not only is it a bad move on its own, its existence is actively detrimental to Wolverine.
Because it's a mash move (you need to mash an attack button to use it), Swiss Cheese will come out when you press buttons too quickly. That means that you have to be extremely precise when you plink/wave dash, and you have to consciously slow down your button presses when pressuring. Or else Swiss Cheese will come out and you get punished.
I swear Capcom only added this move in Ultimate to indirectly nerf Wolverine.
Yes, the move was made exclusively to stop wolverine from mashing.
This could make for a good series. You could team up with players from various types of fighting games (3D, anime, footsies, etc) and talk about the best and worst moves.
hey jm if you want a mini-game bomb type move, the best example I know is in the platform fighter Slap City -- Goddess of Explosions side special
it's a fireball that both characters can knock around indefinitely until it flies off screen or hits someone, and it gets faster with every hit, and is stronger the faster it is. Banger move. also competitively viable.
Soul Calibur 5 Ezio's 6K2 is a hilariously bad useful move. It's a barely reactable standing low with ambiguous startup that's launch punishable (-18) on hit. It's only saving grace is that as a standalone move it did 15%, so you could toss it out as a game win. But if you didn't win off it and your opponent knew, the punish you would take for trying could easily kill you (Especially when considering ring out potential on launch punishes)
Wait, is that Ezio you mentioned, like, THE Ezio from Assassin's Creed?
@@LloydTheZephyrian Indeed. Soul Calibur loves its guest characters. Darth Vader, Yoda, Ezio, 2B, Geralt, link, Spawn.....
@@ewaep I knew about all of THOSE ones. Just not Ezio. I only know of most of those because they were banned due to being console exclusives.
Leona from kof 98 has eye-slasher (qcb A/C) which is six trillion frames of recovery. It probably is only to punish missed input of her super.
Talking about IKs, when P4AU came out on switch my friends ran a side event for it at their smash locals. I dominated up to grand's because it was mostly just smash players. However, when I got to the last round of the set to win I was extremely ahead so for fun I picked my hands off my controller to get awakening boost. Then proceeded to IK for the win.
They were so hyped that the game lasted a solid few more weeks in our play group than it would have if that hadn't happened. Never would have got it off on my actual fgc friends but was hype nonetheless xD
kohaku's drug install in AACC. the reason why it is useless because it's a really long startup and costs too much meter. Also has very niche ways to setup that aren't even worth cause you can do poison Johnny setup for better use of 150 meter
This was a fun video to watch, even for someone like me that only watches fighting games but doesn't play any, interesting moves to point out and interesting perspectives on what makes them bad moves.
Also for those that don;t read the description but might read this comment, Lord Knight made a similar video on his channel, jmcrofts is also featured in that one but it is about broken moves instead of bad ones.
Not a DB player so feel free to disregard my take on it, but that bean does seem quite handy if Krillin is your only remaining character, it might be a weak move but I wouldn't call it terrible as it does have some circumstantial use.
Also my favorite terrible move is Kuma/Panda Fatal Wind which unfortunately was removed in Tekken 7. It's unblockable and a instant kill but has around 100 frames of startup and the range is so bad the opponent basically have to walk into it
In Melty Blood Actress Again, Len has a "projectile" where she releases a kitten that slowly walks towards the opponent. The kitten has about 3 different colors and only the golden one does a sliver of damage. The others do nothing, so it's a gamble...
Zangief's Tundra Storm in SFV is so worthless the fanbase demanded they make it slightly harder to do so they would stop accidently getting it.
No Missing Link Potemkin Close Slash?
Just ACTIVATING IK in Guilty Gear puts a pressure on both players that is hilarious to watch. "Oh you're really gonna try it? On me? Alright tough guy" is a beautiful thing to behold especially if they slip up and get hit by it.
As a Jiren player I just can't help snapping his H grab. Its just so satisfying to land.
Leona's I-Slasher from KOF 98 is legitimately the worst projectile I've ever seen in a fighting game
In regards to Jiren's 5H, it's meant to be used in stagger pressure. That's an issue I find with the FGC, they love to trash on moves that were clearly designed to be option select, and they either don't use them properly, or get destroyed by it.
Thanks dude I was looking for someone to talk about this
surprised noone mentioned sol's dragon install 2nd in accent core, it's like a 20 frame start up move with 170ish recovery frames that basically kills you with how fast it drains your health AND it costs 100 meter. it's like potentially the worst move in fighting game history
same, i was expecting to see it
even dragon install is bad in this game, it's very funny but bad. The cherry on top with DI2nd besides what you said is that it kills your meter gain as well. and given the input it almost feel like even the dev dont want you to use it lol
Remind me why we classify a whole category of moves after it even though DI has never ever been good
@@Skallva because it's one of the earliest and best known examples. It's iconic regardless of its actual viability.
Some moves that really came to mind for me:
- Zangief's Tundra Storm (especially when it was still dp+P instead of PP). Easily one of the most situational moves in SF history, and
- Heidern's Kill Bringer reversal (but sure wins for style points however, especially since it heals him as well).
- Leona's I-Slasher in KOF 97-98. Good grief this move was basically the equivalent of giving your opponent a handicap. Even if it hits your payoff wasn't worth anything. Her Earring Bomb ranged projectile is another stinker, but at least it's not completely useless.
- Sogetsu Kazama's immobilizing qcf+S bubble projectile when using the Slash/Shura version. It's so slow to start that your opponent literally has time to run up to you from the other end of the screen and punish you. Sure, if it does hit you get a hard punish, but they'd literally have to be asleep to not see this coming.
- Ramon's Tiger Lord > Cross Chop move in KOF 2002/NeoWave. Unlike the other moves listed here, it's not actually a bad move. It's however, completely redundant when in 2002 Ramon gained a new move called Force of Will which has the same startup animation, covers the same range with the same attack animation that turns into a grab for more damage and is unblockable to boot, while still being able to hit an airborne opponent. So in other words, Force of Will was the exact same move but better and unblockable, so the Cross Chop just felt needless. Thankfully in KOF XI it was revamped so that the Cross Chop is faster and goes full screen with a better air to air hitbox, so its overlaps with the Force of Will were mostly gone in XI.
One that comes to mind is Alex's Spiral DDT from 3rd Strike. It's a move so rarely used that people who don't play him probably forget it even exists. Super telegraphed and punishable since he's airborne, and whiffs on crouching opponents. Even though it's bad, it is really fun to just throw it out every once in a while and catch people off guard
I'd say that on launch you could put the majority of Jiren's entire moveset on this list. As someone who suffered through maining him at that time I can safely say that this character was absolute garbage lmao
Bro called Ky Kyle 😂
i was hoping with ex rock throw you would show that if you die and fall into it, you get revived lol
Would love to see more collabs in the future, I liked the discussion at the end
@23:52 I've seen Ulsan hit fools with df2 MANY times. It's a REALLY good whiff punisher and you get hella combos off it. Also 18 frames is NOT slow in Tekken terms, considering our fastest moves are 10 frame and 15 is launchable for most of the cast.
you can throw Kirllin's senzu to your benched team mates and they recover the blue life and become instantly available to change
It's amazing that JM can pick these moves that not even LordKnight knows of
It is surprising how often you can get Jirens grab in DBFZ. The amount I’ve hit it is a shit ton more then how much I’ve hit it. Idk if it’s cause they just forget it exists or some other reason but it’s clutched for me so much that I can’t not love it
Krillin's move is useful because you can throw it at your opponent in the middle of your combo. While it may heal his blue health, the mental damage from your sheer superiority will never heal.
This video should be titled “Bad moves that I love and use”
To this day, what I feel like they should have done with jirens 5h was give it a charge function like some other normals. Just pressing the button makes it a normal heavy hit like everyone else, but holding it turns it into the command grab.
It would justify the slow startup while creating a unique frame trap situation.
Then again I can't say if this is a bad idea or not, but other characters have more toxic options.
this is exactly what I want for Jiren. also remove one of the nerfs from the list they did on 214S
I don’t know how long I’ve been playing marvel Vs Capcom 2 and I had no idea Cyclops had a command grab
Hey man! Some challenge for you here :)
Make a video about strongest (or one of the strongest in roster) characters in FG with the worst move in the game at the same time.
I think Krillin bean throw is niche but okay because you can toss a bean to allies in the back a recover their blue life. Depending on what they got hit by or if they got caught in a combo that could be a lot of blue life
Cyclops has those moves since COTA. When X Men Vs Street Fighter came out my friend surprised me with those moves
This team up rocks my socks, more of this.
Videos like this always make me wonder how long they take to make and how they were made. Did you guys have pre-recorded scenes of the moves in question, or did you load up each game separately and perform the move live in front of each other? If the latter, did you already have the games running, or was it like "hang on, let me boot up this game, training mode, character select, etc."
What about Dan's super and mega taunts?
Capcom put that in there to troll players.
Awesome video! Great stuff guys!
I know smash is not a fighting game in the traditional sense, but when he added Sephiroth( a fast character in his verse) they made sure Seph had all the starying and ending lag in the world. Imagine using all these bad moves together as a character's moveset.
I think 18's command grab deserves a mention. It's easy to combo off of, but I find it really difficult to land.
I feel like Anakaris was designed to be a strictly offensive character but they went and fumbled the bag a little and gave him zero defensive options.
If we're talking Instant Kills too, +R Dizzy's is absolutely unusable. Not only is the input insanely difficult to do, but you're rewarded with a nearly 2 full second IK startup: too long to use after a stun combo.
That move has 0 value whatsoever.
Cyclops command grab is good to perform during an assist. They block the assist and get grabbed you can scoop / bounce them OTG .I think it sometimes has a use case on assists as well to have a birthday party.
was wondering if sf4 Blanka's rainbow roll would be on it. One of the only moves in any game that is sometimes punishable ON HIT!
Jiren's grab is so slow compared to others because of the tools he has aside from that.
With his many frametraps and 4 different counters you can't just mash back at him
because you may get countered and lose half your health bar as a result.
This makes the existence of his grab in context with his entire kit much scarier than the move itself.
Smash has a few stinker moves in the series. In 64 and Melee, for example, they quite literally forgot to put the finishing hit box of Luigi’s dash attack in the game. Also in Melee, either Mario’s or Luigi’s (I forget which one) downward-angled forward tilt is entirely useless, not even launching at 999% In Brawl, Meta Knight (the best character in that game by far) had a horrible rapid jab. There was no reason to use it instead of his forward tilt and it also had a random hit behind Meta Knight that serves no purpose.
Yoshi's double suicide is probably the worst move in any game, his regular suicide is actually decent and has setups and combo use for high damage but the double suicide is so useless you have to space a ridiculously telegraphed slow running move that the first hit whiffs and somehow have the opponent get hit by the second hit
I think a good one would be Akiras grab in dengeki bunko, they for whatever reason thought it'd be a good idea to give him an obvious mix tool but make it a duckable hit throw, it's not necessarily a bad move but it has literally no use
I honestly think krillin senzu bean is pretty good, at least if I am right that senzu bean can be used on allies that are tagged out. Imagine a scenario you get happy birthday but the opponent doesn’t kill your standby character, or you need to wait for a character to heal a ton of health before switching them in. senzu bean immediately restores that ally’s health. So there is no more risk of being snapped out and losing all that health. Even if krillin dies as a result that character is now at a good amount of health.
Even then it saves sparking as a resource to heal blue health. You really going waste something as op as sparking for purely blue health? When sparking provides so many things, purely for blue health is a waste unless the character is solo imo. It’s either to shift momentum, not deal with a mixup, or save a character.
I don’t think it’s necessarily bad, just situational and not often utilized
Honestly, Croft's explanation and yours both make sense. I'm leaning more toward yours, though. Also, you can get 50/50s off of bean, too
I will say that Krillin's Senzu Bean is a fairly useful move. But not in early or mid game, but in late game. As once your Spark is gone and Krillin is your final character, one raw level 3 would bring any other character down to their last leg, but Krillin is the only character who has a chance to help himself. Plus, you can make it as his assist, and that way have Krillin be just your shield against Raw level 3's, atleast ones you would survive
I think it's okay that there are bad moves, but I think they could get the best of both worlds by buffing them. For example Warlock Punch in Smash Bros is totally useless in competitive play, but very cool in casual play. If they buffed the move, they could make it useable in competitive play while still keeping it cool in casual play