Yes. But there are still some that have higher consensus. Even in a hypothetical situation like the rock paper scissors one another comment brought up, one of those options would somehow be the most popular or the most beginner friendly...and the one that beats it becomes the most hated.
The worse archetypes are unlockable final bosses. When youre fighting them they are fast. Their frames are better. Their dmg us better. Then you unlock em AND .....they are utter trash
@@Bendoesboxing eh…., in SRW, a mecha crossover turn-based strategy game, has several instances of bosses being like this, with the only caveat usually just that they have player level HP rather than the absurd amounts bosses do. Besides that they’ll usually keep any attacks and abilities they had (assuming they join in the same mech as in the boss fight), can be given extra abilities through player-exclusive upgrade mechanics, and get the ability to use spirits (player-exclusive skills that affect battles, stuff like 2x damage, 100% hit or dodge chance, etc.). Enemies can only use spirits in scripted events.
I think you missed one from the dark days of fighting game design. The 'three utterly broken moves' and 'everything else is hot garbage' character apparently designed with the mindset that they balance each other out because there's no way players will just only ever use those moves.
The Top Three Most Despicable Characters, in every game: 1. The character everyone plays 2. The character that beats my character 3. The character I suck at fighting
i think its the other way round actually, from the changes they keep making to him each patch it looks like he was supposed to be a rushdown with an unconventional playstyle but that coincidentally resulted in him being a ridiculous zoner.
I think for me my least favorites are characters that are purposefully weaker overall because they're given gimmicky "situational" tools that don't actually compensate for the weakness like 90% of the time (FANG and Twelve). It feels like when a character is designed like that like they don't even want you to play those characters. Edit: SFV launch FANG
@@morzathoth919 Oh yeah, Vsav Anakaris comes to mind: he can be super fun to play, but man he suck... half his gimmicky kit is useless or detrimental😢
Another great example of number 2 is Kabal from Mortal Kombat 9. That guy could jump back instant-air gas blast you all day long, and then you have his full screen dash that leads into a combo that restands you into his insane block pressure that you almost never can find a moment to get out of unless the Kabal player messes up the dash cancelling execution.
Half of the dedicated zoners really got done dirty in that game. Noob, sindel, and Stryker all had trash normals and their zoning wasn't even as good as the best rushdown character in the game. Then someone with a pocket Smoke could just press one of his three "you can't zone me" buttons against you lol
I remember when Batgirl completely flipped the Injustice 1 meta on its head by being an incredibly strong punisher of zoning whilst having a pretty nutty vortex and some strong meterless damage.
The dlc left that game busted since nrs never came back to balance them after the community fleshed out those match ups. I wish there had been an option like ultra sf4 where you could choose the version of each character so that if I had to fight another bat girl I could at least be the broken version of superman and make it miserable for both of us😂
I feel like grapplers and zoners are the most hated in general; they force you to play a completely different style of play, on top of being very tough for new players to deal with. For Zoners they can keep you at bay if you have no concept of proper defense and approach options yet, whereas with Grapplers they punish mistakes VERY harshly and while many grapplers fall off in higher level play that doesn't really apply to people still learning the fundamentals and matchups.
I used to hate grapplers, but that was in my infancy of fighting games before I recognized jumping and reaction-jabbing as a valid defensive option. Now I just hate them because I'm bad
I feel like when people hate a rush down, they never blame it on them being a rush down, they just blame that specific character. Like someone will lose against Zangief or Pot and be like “I hate grapplers”, or guile/asuka and follow with “I hate zoners”. But if they face a character that just rushes them down constantly and has crazy combos their instinct is, “I hate this specific rush down”. People just seem more quick to generalize the other archetypes
I don't mind 2D characters in Tekken. I do mind that they're so overpowered though. I think Eliza is a pretty good balance between 2D and 3D. I mean sure she's a Tekken character but she's definitely meant to be a "2D character beta test" waaay back in Tekken Revo.
@@Izayakuun I still can't believe dedicated zoners like Frieza have arguably worse zoning than Broly who is also a grappler and arguably the best grappler too.
Z Broly is like 3 archetypes in one. He’s completely ridiculous. What’s even more ridiculous is that a character like Z Bully isn’t the best character in FighterZ... wild.
The ones I most hate are the setup characters who are too good at setting up. As the setplay type basically wins all day once the setup is in, characters who play that way shouldn't be difficult to stuff, but sometimes, one is.
that sounds like steve/phoenix wright where they just farm to buff themself whenever they are not continuously pressured, and they do it way too effectively.
@@JacopoJayVuga Testament & ZATO-1 in Guilty Gear XX #Reload. Very fast, far reaching set plays -> hard to avoid unblockables -> stuns -> 100%s. Plus fantastic tools in general (Testament has absurdly strong loops, his projectile can create setplay that's devastating even without stuns (the tree & nets are the real OP set plays though), he has a counter that when it hits, poisons the enemy. ZATO has a projectile reflect, decent normals without his shadow. When his shadow comes online he can practically TOD you from a random poke.
Armor abusers are my biggest issue. Things like kouma from melty blood where they can just respond to any attempt to fight back with more armored moves.
Adding to what is said about 3S Akuma: Everyone can only choose 1 of 3 supers to do while he gets that and has 2 additional supers (Raging demon and ddd+pp) and has no access to EX special moves.
low HP with a ton of tools tend to be some of my favorite characters but i can definitely see why everybody hates fighting them bc they can be kinda busted sometimes
I've seen a multitude of people harshly criticize 2D characters in 3D games, but they only cite Akuma and Geese as examples. How do those individuals feel about Mai Shiranui in DOA5 (and 6 alongside Kula Diamond) and/or Haohmaru in SC6? I never hear much about them. (I personally don't think Kula fits in DOA, but that's my only criticism there.)
I think some of the least fun to fight characters are the setup characters (Jack-O, Gargos, etc.). You make a mistake at the start of the round and then you're covered in servants unable to press anything unless you know the character in and out. Second only anime/Netherrealm zoners.
I can definitely agree with the "this character in the best in the game, except if you sneeze on them they die" archetype being one of the most frustrating. Even if they are relatively well balanced, it often feels like I have to account for 10 things they could do at any given moment while they generally only have to account for like 3-4. It is why I'm super interested how Akuma turns out in SF6, since in the closed betas, everyone had the exact same health value, so they would actually have to balance his kit around the tools he has and not around his health.
I feel like the problem with those characters is that they're incredibly hard to balance. Like if you give a character pretty much everything they can want and punish that with low health you can often run into the issue where. It doesn't matter that x character has the lowest health in the game and dies super quick. They just have the tools to win without really having to be touched. Whereas the lots of health big damage slow archetype often sucks because they don't have the tools to either get in or stay in
@@jmanwild87 Exactly. There is a reason Zangief isn't that good in most SF games while Akuma is at worst a mid tier. That's very much why I am interested in SF6's balancing, since (from the betas anyway) everyone had the same health value so you actually have to balance characters like Gief and Akuma on their kit and not their health value being higher/lower than most
Strive really makes the distance between you and the opponent smaller and easier to cross. Someone like Chip has no problem approaching you in half a second
@@zxt5148 Chipp vs Pot always has been and always should be the true risk vs reward playstyle on both sides, but Chipp vs Goldlewis is generally pretty miserable. Like yes, Big Gold hits Chipp once and then Chipp is dead. But more often than not, Chipp ironically out pokes and out punishes GL because of absurd mobility while having serviceable normals. It's kinda the same way that Ky does really well with 6P, Stun Dipper and every air button.
Another archetype is the heavy mixup characters after one knockdown and it feels like you're in 50/50 land forever until you guess right. Like R. Mika, and Zangief.
I think you missed the mark on Zoners that can rush down better than normal rushdown. If you see Ferry in Granblue or Dhalsim in Sf5 they zone an when they get their 1 touch they immediately rush down an go for crazy mix. With their busted projectiles
@@SquidwardProfilePic Basically that. Abusable safe or + moves, neutral bypassing safe or + moves as examples. Walk behind projectiles, command jump arcs that are hard to consistently anti air and easy to set up guessing gimmicks... there are sooooo many things wrong with fighting games I don't even know why I play them anymore.
AHHHH! I'm 8 days late and was still able to get my hands on that sweet sweet data mug! I really enjoy your positivity and its gotten me out of my shell to try online and fight actual people. I keep telling myself, the first round is just data! Let's goooooo!
I hate characters that overly depend on meter/installs. The kind that’s either “I have meter so it’s my turn” or “I don’t have meter so I’m losing” It makes situations feel a lot less dynamic because there isn’t much you can to do turn around a situation in your control. It takes away a lot of the risk/reward of your options since you just have to wait a lot of times.
SFV G is one of the better implementations of this style of character I've seen in a while. The ground gimmick is a great way to balance around it. You are right that its usually poorly done most of the time.
Actually by far the worst example is seen in Smash Ultimate. There are many characters with powerful abilities tied to time passing or passive actions, like Wario, Joker, Cloud, and most notoriously Steve. These characters are literally incentivized to avoid playing, not walling out and zoning with projectiles and spaced attacks, but just running circles and avoiding all interaction. It’s just awful to play out.
@@mikamoschella3410 Wario, if anything, is directly incentivized to get in close, considering that Ultimate buffed his Bite to charge the Gas faster. Granted, even with landing Bites, it's still gonna be over a minute to charge😢
I’ve never been able to wrap my head around charge characters. I just can’t seem to comprehend holding a button or direction while also doing other stuff on the controller, which sucks because some of my favorite fighting game characters is a charge character (big band) and I just can’t seem to get good as him.
Neatherrealm zoners, all of them. Also in For Honor with the recent changes to dodges, anyone with easy access to unblockables. You have to either dodge them or parry them, you go for the dodge, they feint their unblockable to a guard break and get a free heavy or a bash into heavy, you go for the parry and they feint and parry you, bash you, or dodge attack and your back into the mixer.
Also I'm a Axl Main, my brother mains Chipp he's not good enough to beat me yet so when he tries to go in the air I try to hit him with a bomber or two, and he tends to chill on the jump ins
for me it’s low health but high damage characters/option characters because there’s always a big body who sucks but then this archetype get all the advantages but none of the drawbacks
The annoying thing about Akuma in Tekken is that they totally could have removed his fireball and it would be in character for him. (Totally flexing on them by not even using some of his moves)
I would continue on your guest characters in Tekken thing by adding that I think the real issue is that any character that is "true to their origional game" in a way that breaks the rules of the game tend to cause issues. Sometimes it is cool! Other times you get Akuma in Tekken or for the Smashies in the audience they deal with that... a lot... the examples are all over the place. In general rule breaking characters are something else.
I was actually going to comment the same thing, with Smash as an example. I think there are a couple of ways in which you can implement characters with different universal mechanics, but it's an extremely tight rope to walk which I'd rather see avoided. For example, Bayonetta works because, once you boil her down to her raw playstyle, she's a relatively slow but agile, highly combo-centric character with extremely strong recovery options. But even then, I think Bats Within are stupid. Min Min works because despite her many oddities she's still balanced like a traditional zoner, and under those parameters she's relatively fair. And still, I think her edgeguard is stupid. And then there are Kazuya and especially Steve who are so radically different from every other character that they just turn Smash into a minigame where you have to play around their tools, which are tools no one else gets so the chances that your character is equipped to deal with them are next to nothing, and regardless of if you win or lose you just got robbed of the chance to play the game you booted up to play.
@@ungeekfurioso4802 I mean more that they have a completely different set of mechanics. I don't mean they literally break the rules that is why I said sometimes they are fine. I just mean how they function is so divorced from other characters they break the foundation. This can be iffy because a lot of the times that means you need very specific solutions to dealing with that specific character not everyone in a cast has access to. I would argue Akuma and Geese are better designed examples of this issue because every character DOES have solutions to deal with them, they are just very divisive.
@Chazaqiel I don't think making minmin heavy AND having intangible arms is fair when you have sephiroth right over there who is light and has to be far safer than the character with the most range in the game. She isn't busted, but she is not balanced. Sephiroth is a much better example of a balanced ranged character outside of wing cheese and counter. Most ranged characters in fighting games have very low hp and struggle boxing. This is like sephiroth. Minmins oos isn't as bad and her recovery is really the only major weakness she has and even then it's not even bad. It's just below average. Not only that but she has a reflector for some reason? Why?
I want to play the most untouchable fun killing god forsaken zoner to ever exist. I want to be a VILLAIN, and always be respectful to my opponents, so they get emotional whiplash.
There's a line in fighting games where all the studying of spacing and timing and combos must face human psychology. There are many amazing players out there who can learn to read exactly where they're standing and time hits and projectiles to the frame consistently - and I respect the time and effort that goes into that. But of those dedicated players, not as many manage to absorb that knowledge as actual usable skillsets and end up relying on characters that do exact things in exact ways every time so their math doesn't get thrown off. That's why I've always loved characters where you can just throw a lot of if not all that jump & angle calculating stuff out the window and make your opponent tilt with pure unmitigated psychology by NOT doing what they expect when they're trained to only function in ideal predictable situations and cannot adapt in time to survive the match. Guy, Gen and Vega in USSF4:AE (I will never stop calling it that,) were some of my best because I could do things deemed unusual. By using an EX Flying Barcelona (hope I remembered that right,). these types of players would never imagine someone wasting EX on purpose and will react as if you're intending to go for an attack... only to pull into the wall completely wasting the EX and rushing in for something totally bizarre. And just manipulating the arc and angle rendering pre-programmed visual cues obsolete. Like using EX Izuna Drop with Guy not to attack but go sailing over their heads making them whiff a wake up reaction and suddenly change sides. They never expect it when they see that EX spark up - the idea of intentionally wasting it to exploit its unusual movements doesn't occur in the heat of the moment. Only players who truly know their character as well as the mechanics can recognize this, dial back on the programmed reactions and instead watch you - hoping to figure you out and make a new strategy on the fly. As it should be, instead of endless poking waiting for a player to make a mistake. The one that still makes me laugh is for whatever reason, in SF6 - most players seem to get brain fog when Chun Li starts sliding in from the other side of the stage on Lotus Stance Medium Punch under fireballs. I original did it to be funny and the psychological game for them to ask... "why would ANYONE do that!?" but it just... kept... working... over and over. Many times I could do 4 to 6 slides and get the trip because they expect you to do... anything else more sensical than to keep sliding as the actual attack. I love it.
My most hated archetype is learning to fight a player who has used one specific archetype character, and the moment you finally beat their main, they pull out their hidden secondary they never told you about and sends you straight to the shadow realm
you know... 2d in 3d could also easily be turned into "characters that don't follow the rules of the core game" i.e characters with air dashes in games almost entirely without them, or characters that can roll or dash past projectiles in games where thats not normally possible except by said characters. heck i think at one point where 3d in 2d was a thing?
yeah that coincides with the "hard to zone" discussed in the video. I personally love when characters define matchups (like Guilty Gear) but only if the resulting game is balanced & interesting (hard to do). The C. Viper example seemed very neat, reminded me of Fei Long.
@@quantumpotato sometimes when i think “characters that don’t follow the rules of the core game” the opposite is true when they LACK the tools that everyone else has, building meter by dealing damage, air dashes, rolls, supers, specials, etc it is more rare but i think i hate them more than anything especially when they end up better than the ones with said tools its rare and i cannot think of anyone of the top of my head probably because their usually rare and bad
@@likky1 yeah that's a good point. TOTALLY different characters feels bad, if it's too strongly defining it's often not balanced. Ron McDon's Za Wārudo in Hyperfight comes to mind. He stops time, sets you up then gets a combo in a game without combos.
@@quantumpotato a character that specifically lacks the ability to build meter by himself does come to mind (only through using a special) a character called gunvolt in blade strangers is meter dependant and HAS to either get hit or use a special that does nothing but make him stand still and build half a meter
@@likky1 Robo-KY did something like that, he only builds meter on his mat. He's a real goofy character. Kind of meta-defining in a way - I liked it because it's interesting though I can see how it's frustrating to play vs him and having to learn new Robo-Ky mechanics (meter, auto super, heat gauge & steam)
Rushdowns that are too good at mixing you up and/or all off his mix ups are non commital making it so once they get in which they easily do,they stay in really easy while constantly making you guess,making it feel like you are playing against a rushdown with the reward of a grappler
Yeah, I'm not a fan of characters that bend the rules of the game to make them more faithful. I definitely come more from Smash, I know we're not well liked in the FGC, bear with me. But in Smash, combos don't really exist. Most characters if they have combos, it's usually a 2-3 hit true combo, or something that leads to a kill setup/edge guard. Some characters get ladder combos but at least they need platforms to do so. Using platforms in a "platform fighter." So it's really strange to see characters like Bayonetta come in and get very long combos that lead to death. Or Ryu and Ken, that are allowed to cancel thier normals into specials and have auto turn around. Auto turn around in Smash literally eliminates the opponent's defensive options for no reason. Or Kazuya, that has so many infinites it's a wonder how he's still tournament legal. Or Steve, that's allowed to just build walls.
You can hate any type besides Shoto. Shoto may be boring but it’s (almost) essential to get new people learning the game’s unique mechanics since they’re so easy to pick up and play
Boy oh boy do I love the designated top-tier. That's the character intended by the developers to be good that suppresses other characters and doesn't have any counter pick.
Ah my zoning brother. I also am a big hater when it comes to characters that counter zoning or are hard to anti-air. When I make plays that just hard counter whatever I'm doing, I get frustrated more and more and it's all downhill from there.
Dont play fighting games but I would hate playing against zoners if the game gave me limited options to counter it like JP in Street Fighter 6 or Robocop/Reiko in Mortal Kombat
Keep away characters that have full bullet hell projectiles, excellent mobility, huge combo damage, great normals, an invincible super, a clone super, projectiles with too much durability, meter drain mechanics, and excellent meter gain. It's Morrigan from umvc3. A plague on Chris G's house. Also every character in injustice. That game had a way of making every character feel like cheap bullshit especially on maps with drones and dumpsters.
And to add on your akuma point, what happens when you give him all his strength, take away the weakness of low health and put him in a another game…. You have top 3 character in Tekken 7 for the last 5 years🤣🤣🤣
Day 1 of asking JMCrofts to play Killer Instinct as Gargos and eat his own minions! Minion-based characters (like puppets that behave independently of the player character) are always a nightmare to play against! I was surprised not to see Jack-o or Nappa in the video!
Characters that are inherently garbage just to be garbage (Dan in anything but a very few games, for example) and characters who feel like a waste of a character slot (most of the Soul Calibur V cast was this.) A character should never be a "struggle" to win with unless it's a "you" issue or their gameplan is meant to be inherently complex and is therefore gratifying by the nature of that complexity. I'm very grateful that there are actually more than a few fighting games out there today that are so balanced the entire roster is basically "decent to excellent," but I'm also grateful for hilariously imbalanced games like Marvel and 3S, because you know what you're getting either way.
My most hated archetype also happens to be the one I play in most games, the puppet character. My first memory of fighting games was being decimated by these 2v1 cheaters and I thought it was so bullshit that I decided to play them myself. Lo and behold I discovered that I like cheating. I've gotten better at fighting these types of character due to my experience with them but in most games they tend to have some ridiculous offensive sequences that are extremely hard to deal with and even harder to lab if you don't play them(except in gg +r, why don't more game include replay takeover???). Still nothing gets me as excited to gang up on some poor unsuspecting player with my imaginary buddies. Some of the characters I play include Zato/Eddie from Guilty Gear, Shadow Labrys from Persona, Pom from Them's Fightin' Herds, Mario from Melty blood and more! They all have grade A bullshit when the right opportunity presents itself. Carl Clover looks really cool too so I might try him whenever I get into BlazBlue.
I think you're just a little down when someone out does you in your gimmick you learned and spent 140 hours in and slowly start feeling that all your training does nothing...no I'm not speaking from my personal experience
Akuma and Geese would be fine in Tekken if they just didn't have some incredibly damaging combos. Literally if they increased their knock back in combos or nerfed their RA/RD damage, it would be so much more fun to fight them.
another character that is impossible to zone is Smoke in MK9. he has an anti-projectile move much like nightwolf's except smoke's is faster, strongest AND it can be mantained, so you don't even have to react, also you can combo off of it. he also has a teleport punch similar to scorpion's but much much faster plus his move speed is very high. it almost seems like he was specifically designed to counter reptile.
I played against an Akuma pretty recently in Tekken 7 and they just played him really slow and kept their guard up, and essentially used him as a zoner. We got so close to running the timer out multiple times. Would not try to play against again tbh
My friend who plays Akuma in SF once said that Tekken 7 Akuma felt slower than usual and is more execution heavy when he tried learning the big boy demon flip combos.
He probably is slower in Tekken. This player played him more like a "turtle". Waiting for me to make a move and slowly doing any of the combos that took execution, if at all. Which was only when I got up to him. I've played more aggressive Akumas since and found that more enjoyable, even if I lost
Im surprised u didn't mention smoke from mk9. He by far is the one character you cant spam on. He has moves dedicated towards spammers like his perry, and in my opinion the best Teleport in the game that comes out so quick and can follow u and hit you anywhere on screen twice and if you burn a meter can hit u 3 times.
My least favorite archetype is "i'm just clearly meant to be the best character in the game with bonkers frame data and combos but i'm squishy and maybe have one flaw that the ocean of people maining me will swear up and down balances it out" See: basically all of the "glass cannon" superfast fiddly characters. Admittedly this is a bigger problem with platform fighters than traditional fighting games but still def a thing in them.
For Smash fans it's swordfighters since they take up less than 5% of Ultimate's roster. XD Also *_HOW HAS STORM NOT BEEN BANNED FROM COMPETITIVE MVC2 YET?!_*
I think my most hated archetype is puppet characters when their broken, when their like mid or lowtiers it’s whatever. Or characters that have no mix. Occasionally fighting games add the mids only characters, not even grapplers either, just fully rely on frame traps and making the opponent mess up by getting impatient because all they do is hit mids (but usually their good because they have a shit ton of plus frames)
Speaking of characters that feel out of place like 2d in 3d games, in doa 5 we had 4 characters from virtua fighters and man, that was odd,, they felt very strange to play against or with, even the sound was awkward
I main Jade in MK9 cause we were only playing during the breaks when I was working in the video game industry so I didn't care much. In MKX I switch to Mileena because Jade was MIA. This is also when I started playing Online.. Then MK11 came in and Jade was back... I never received so many hate messages in such a short period of time hahaha
Probably the Comeback mechanic or Super the character kind of deal, which have the goal of maybe chipping 25% of your health while you dumpster them to reversal threshold, to then hit one confirm from a neutral interaction to a will it kill clip.
My least favorite type of characters 1. AutoZoners I’m fine with regular zoning (hell I mostly play zoners) but characters where their zoning tools actively lock on to you is just not fun 2. Characters that can kinda just TOD with chip damage like ok I’ve been blocking your plus 15 on block moves and as soon as I manage to get out hey I’m dead to a jab
Mixup characters are something my monkey brain is not equipped to handle. You're saying I have to not only block, but also block THE RIGHT WAY??? What a nightmare
The big wrestler guy that has lots of grappling moves (Zangief, Goro, Potemkin.) It's like, I have to keep my distance if I don't want to get grabbed but if I try not to get too close then there's less combo opportunities for me.
I got to mention Phoenix from MvC3. She was basically Storm + Spiral from MvC2: rushdown, zoning, chip damage, teleports, big super, infinites, etc. but then throw in healing.
I actually think Phoenix is very close to being fair in that game. You really have to build a team around her and play around building the meter to turn her dark. That means you either have to play a team that can kill easily without meter/xfactor while also building the meter you need or risk using meter/xfactor and deal with a character that dies in one hit from pretty much any character. The only problem is xfactor level 3 is way too strong so it kinda negates the need to play the meter game as you can just risk being able to get the hit with normal Phoenix and convert into infinite. I think nerfing xfactor 3 would definitely make her a more manageable/less viable character.
@@zakk219 I think the thing is that having a team like the Phoenix/Morrigan shell who can spend a ton of meter, make the game annoying yet build a ton of meter to still have the ace in the sleeve absolutely makes it worthy of a mention. Having to make certain teams or come up with tech specifically meant to counter that them makes it somewhat unbalanced. Besides, none of the characters mentioned in this video were unbeatable, they simply were top characters - which I think Phoenix (and Morrigan) are in this game. Additionally, many people would consider Phoenix and Morrigan to be two out of three of the best characters in this game, and having them have so much synergy on a team together is pretty noteworthy imo.
@@rhetttheehitman9771 That's fair. It is pretty notable that she works fairly well with most of the top tiers in the game. I really wish UMvC3 would have gotten at least one or two more patches to address some of the really dumb/broken stuff in the game.
Yo JM! Love the content as always man. Would love to see some hoodies in the merch line up instead of just T-shirts, I dont know the logistics regarding that, but I'd for sure cop a hoodie. Much love
As a grappler I must say zoners are my main terror. Goenitz coming to KoF 15 is just non stop PTSD. But I must say that, in a more serious and less specifically biased note, the "every tool but low health, lmao" is probably the worst.
Probabky the overall most hated archetypes are those that don’t allow as much interaction as others. So basically: High end set play (stops footsies based gameplay and decisions once the win condition is gotten, examples arakune from blazblue, and ibuki from sf4) Keepaway or runaway, stops footsies based gameplay because all you can really do is dash and jump towards them till you get lucky and get in. Examples, A2 dhalsim, mvc2 cable, blazblue NU Armoured/big button grappler stops footsies because they armour through all of your buttons and grab you in the middle of your blockstrings so you are forced to just back away and run all game. Examples, zangief, Potemkin, tager Over powered buttons character, stops footsies because theirs are just way way better than yours and they have more range, more damage, cover more options, and faster than yours. Example sf5 poison. Basically I’ve found for most people that characters that stop footsies play in some way tend to be the most overall hated. After that it’s usually overtuned characters… keepaway or grappler or all around that are just a bit too good and don’t have weaknesses in their gameplan.
I think that the worst "type" would have to be the one that's "really hard to play due to execution/strategy being extremely demanding but also broken if that works right." Commonly used for puppet characters, a lot of anime games have a few - Johnny in Guilty Gear is the go-to example but there are a ton. I think that on an objective standpoint, this would have to be the WORST type of character. Because for lower level and even mid level players, they won't be having fun with them since they can't do the intended game plan that the character is meant to run. And for high level players who CAN, the character goes from being too weak because the players aren't meeting the high skill floor to way too strong to the point of being completely oppressive. A character who is unplayable at low level, impractical/stressful at mid level, and broken at high level... Not fun for anyone. Except the people who are both high level players who main them, and even then they might complain about their own character because they could say "look at how much work I have to put in ooooh my hands"
Just note: those high level players didnt just *plop* into existence. They have to at some point pick up that character right and invested time into them. Isnt a it a fair deal if you invest a lot into something, the pay-out should be (or feel) at least equal to that.
My least favorite archetype in fighting games is the kind that has too good of a rushdown. I’m more of a defensive player, waiting for openings to punish my opponents and diving in when they whiff attacks, but when a character is so fast that it feels like they have no endlag on any move they throw out, and you have to guess like 5 50/50’s correct before a blockstring that seems entirely safe finally ends, it just feels like you’re watching your opponent play the game while you can’t. Best example I can think of is Beowulf in skullgirls. My second least favorite is the type that has an entire moveset that is deceptively long range. It’s incredibly difficult (for me at least) to find an opening on a character that can cover half the horizontal distance of the stage with one non-projectile attack. The most prolific examples I can think of are potemkin from guilty gear, Elena from street fighter 3 3rd strike, and byleth from smash bros.
Low health characters are annoying but they could be the good Arcsys classic of every tool in the game , stupid rps, high damage and mix characters WITH average or in Nagoriyuki’s case High health . Would much rather deal with a low health toolbox character than a high health one
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
I think every archetype is someone's most hated archetype
Scissors hates Rock
Rock hates Paper
Paper hates Scissors
XD
"To the devs: Please nerf Paper. Scissors are fine. Sincerely, Rock."
Yes. But there are still some that have higher consensus.
Even in a hypothetical situation like the rock paper scissors one another comment brought up, one of those options would somehow be the most popular or the most beginner friendly...and the one that beats it becomes the most hated.
Usually what someone has the most trouble with... and doesn't practice against it.
Some people hate zoners and then some people hate grapplers
The worse archetypes are unlockable final bosses. When youre fighting them they are fast. Their frames are better. Their dmg us better. Then you unlock em AND .....they are utter trash
KOF XIV is the only one I've seen where the final boss is unlockable and plays exactly like his boss fight
We live in a dystopian society where unlockable bosses are either low tier or banned.
And fighting games are not the only to suffer from this. Get the boss in your party in an rpg? Well, he's just a normal dude, now.
@@antonsimmons8519 I’m convinced the only time the boss is good as if not better when you unlock them is Vergil
@@Bendoesboxing eh…., in SRW, a mecha crossover turn-based strategy game, has several instances of bosses being like this, with the only caveat usually just that they have player level HP rather than the absurd amounts bosses do. Besides that they’ll usually keep any attacks and abilities they had (assuming they join in the same mech as in the boss fight), can be given extra abilities through player-exclusive upgrade mechanics, and get the ability to use spirits (player-exclusive skills that affect battles, stuff like 2x damage, 100% hit or dodge chance, etc.). Enemies can only use spirits in scripted events.
I think you missed one from the dark days of fighting game design. The 'three utterly broken moves' and 'everything else is hot garbage' character apparently designed with the mindset that they balance each other out because there's no way players will just only ever use those moves.
You mean SMash Ultimate Little Mac?
@@shadowraith10little mac has like a lot more than 3 good moves
hftf dio
The Top Three Most Despicable Characters, in every game:
1. The character everyone plays
2. The character that beats my character
3. The character I suck at fighting
My character in a mirror match
Aka elena in third strike xd
Dastardly
Happy Chaos is the one I think of for "zoner that can rush down better than rushdown characters"
FOCUS...
i think its the other way round actually, from the changes they keep making to him each patch it looks like he was supposed to be a rushdown with an unconventional playstyle but that coincidentally resulted in him being a ridiculous zoner.
Happy Chaos is his own archetype: "Character that punishes YOU for HIS whiffs"
Happy Chaos or Elphet? Pick your poison!
@@forcommentingpurposesonly2918 rushdown with an unconventional playstyle is just every Strive character, honestly
I think for me my least favorites are characters that are purposefully weaker overall because they're given gimmicky "situational" tools that don't actually compensate for the weakness like 90% of the time (FANG and Twelve). It feels like when a character is designed like that like they don't even want you to play those characters.
Edit: SFV launch FANG
Bro FANG, goes crazy tho
Ah yes the "This character concept would be broken if we made them good so we made them suck" archetype.
@@morzathoth919 Oh yeah, Vsav Anakaris comes to mind: he can be super fun to play, but man he suck... half his gimmicky kit is useless or detrimental😢
@@serenaso4669 If they just let him pushblock he would at least be playable, but no, can't even do that.
Capcom give us Darkstalkers 4 already.
Arakune is a menace and hes apart of these guys
Another great example of number 2 is Kabal from Mortal Kombat 9. That guy could jump back instant-air gas blast you all day long, and then you have his full screen dash that leads into a combo that restands you into his insane block pressure that you almost never can find a moment to get out of unless the Kabal player messes up the dash cancelling execution.
Half of the dedicated zoners really got done dirty in that game. Noob, sindel, and Stryker all had trash normals and their zoning wasn't even as good as the best rushdown character in the game. Then someone with a pocket Smoke could just press one of his three "you can't zone me" buttons against you lol
Kabal in UMK3 was a pain too
MK9 was full of clownery like that.
Skarlet is literally the same bc she can just do the infinite blockstring and you'll die from Chip dmg💀💀
MK9 in general was a shitstravaganza
You know a game is busted when a character can do almost 50% meterless and they’re considered bottom tier 💀
I remember when Batgirl completely flipped the Injustice 1 meta on its head by being an incredibly strong punisher of zoning whilst having a pretty nutty vortex and some strong meterless damage.
The dlc left that game busted since nrs never came back to balance them after the community fleshed out those match ups. I wish there had been an option like ultra sf4 where you could choose the version of each character so that if I had to fight another bat girl I could at least be the broken version of superman and make it miserable for both of us😂
And that was when Sonicfox emerged afaik
One thing I notice in ALL of John Crofts videos is that he's ALWAYS smiling!
Dude absolutely loves talking about fighting games! I love it!
I feel like grapplers and zoners are the most hated in general; they force you to play a completely different style of play, on top of being very tough for new players to deal with. For Zoners they can keep you at bay if you have no concept of proper defense and approach options yet, whereas with Grapplers they punish mistakes VERY harshly and while many grapplers fall off in higher level play that doesn't really apply to people still learning the fundamentals and matchups.
I used to hate grapplers, but that was in my infancy of fighting games before I recognized jumping and reaction-jabbing as a valid defensive option.
Now I just hate them because I'm bad
I feel like when people hate a rush down, they never blame it on them being a rush down, they just blame that specific character. Like someone will lose against Zangief or Pot and be like “I hate grapplers”, or guile/asuka and follow with “I hate zoners”. But if they face a character that just rushes them down constantly and has crazy combos their instinct is, “I hate this specific rush down”. People just seem more quick to generalize the other archetypes
@@sleeplessdistrict3897i hated rush down until I realize that light attacks into 1 combo and they dead
My pet peeve is that VIolent Ken never looks the way he does in the promotional artwork
I still don't know why they gave him an afro for that one key art.
@@theotherjared9824 I personally love the afro from SvC Chaos promos. Someone should edit the sprite to have it.
@@TMNTfever EXACTLY
I don't mind 2D characters in Tekken. I do mind that they're so overpowered though. I think Eliza is a pretty good balance between 2D and 3D. I mean sure she's a Tekken character but she's definitely meant to be a "2D character beta test" waaay back in Tekken Revo.
Akuma is a straight menace, he arguably counts in some form for every section you talked about.
Gotta love him.
My least favorite archetype is my opponent’s character
The only correct answer
Grapplers with better speed and projectiles than other less gifted characters *cough* *cough* Z Broly *cough*
"THE BEST ZONER IN THE GAME IS A GRAPPLER" - MoldyBagel
@@Izayakuun I still can't believe dedicated zoners like Frieza have arguably worse zoning than Broly who is also a grappler and arguably the best grappler too.
Z Bully. Remember when Frieza was almost completely useless against him?
Z Broly is like 3 archetypes in one. He’s completely ridiculous. What’s even more ridiculous is that a character like Z Bully isn’t the best character in FighterZ... wild.
@@grasseater7374 hillariously he isnt even considered top 5 by most and he isnt even considered top tier by some
The ones I most hate are the setup characters who are too good at setting up. As the setplay type basically wins all day once the setup is in, characters who play that way shouldn't be difficult to stuff, but sometimes, one is.
Interesting take! Can I ask you a top3/top 5 of the "settest" characters in your opinion?
that sounds like steve/phoenix wright where they just farm to buff themself whenever they are not continuously pressured, and they do it way too effectively.
@@greenheroes kinda disagree on phoenix since he needs a team to help him gather legitimate evidence and enter turnabout mode
@@JacopoJayVuga Testament & ZATO-1 in Guilty Gear XX #Reload. Very fast, far reaching set plays -> hard to avoid unblockables -> stuns -> 100%s. Plus fantastic tools in general (Testament has absurdly strong loops, his projectile can create setplay that's devastating even without stuns (the tree & nets are the real OP set plays though), he has a counter that when it hits, poisons the enemy. ZATO has a projectile reflect, decent normals without his shadow. When his shadow comes online he can practically TOD you from a random poke.
@@JacopoJayVuga new moon pucci from asbr
The one that I hate the most is the one that beats me up, so all of them
Armor abusers are my biggest issue. Things like kouma from melty blood where they can just respond to any attempt to fight back with more armored moves.
did you know ex moves break armor
@@Inojin67wish we had that in DBFZ...
Nah bro Tager from blazblue or waldstien from Unist 💀
Adding to what is said about 3S Akuma: Everyone can only choose 1 of 3 supers to do while he gets that and has 2 additional supers (Raging demon and ddd+pp) and has no access to EX special moves.
low HP with a ton of tools tend to be some of my favorite characters but i can definitely see why everybody hates fighting them bc they can be kinda busted sometimes
I've seen a multitude of people harshly criticize 2D characters in 3D games, but they only cite Akuma and Geese as examples. How do those individuals feel about Mai Shiranui in DOA5 (and 6 alongside Kula Diamond) and/or Haohmaru in SC6? I never hear much about them.
(I personally don't think Kula fits in DOA, but that's my only criticism there.)
I think some of the least fun to fight characters are the setup characters (Jack-O, Gargos, etc.). You make a mistake at the start of the round and then you're covered in servants unable to press anything unless you know the character in and out.
Second only anime/Netherrealm zoners.
I can definitely agree with the "this character in the best in the game, except if you sneeze on them they die" archetype being one of the most frustrating. Even if they are relatively well balanced, it often feels like I have to account for 10 things they could do at any given moment while they generally only have to account for like 3-4. It is why I'm super interested how Akuma turns out in SF6, since in the closed betas, everyone had the exact same health value, so they would actually have to balance his kit around the tools he has and not around his health.
I feel like the problem with those characters is that they're incredibly hard to balance. Like if you give a character pretty much everything they can want and punish that with low health you can often run into the issue where. It doesn't matter that x character has the lowest health in the game and dies super quick. They just have the tools to win without really having to be touched. Whereas the lots of health big damage slow archetype often sucks because they don't have the tools to either get in or stay in
@@jmanwild87 Exactly. There is a reason Zangief isn't that good in most SF games while Akuma is at worst a mid tier. That's very much why I am interested in SF6's balancing, since (from the betas anyway) everyone had the same health value so you actually have to balance characters like Gief and Akuma on their kit and not their health value being higher/lower than most
I never played strive but in +r chip isn't impossible to zone, you can just use your air attacks because of the wealth of tools in neutral
Strive really makes the distance between you and the opponent smaller and easier to cross. Someone like Chip has no problem approaching you in half a second
@@ir6734 Potemkin and Goldlewis disagree
@@zxt5148 Chipp vs Pot always has been and always should be the true risk vs reward playstyle on both sides, but Chipp vs Goldlewis is generally pretty miserable. Like yes, Big Gold hits Chipp once and then Chipp is dead. But more often than not, Chipp ironically out pokes and out punishes GL because of absurd mobility while having serviceable normals. It's kinda the same way that Ky does really well with 6P, Stun Dipper and every air button.
@@juliandurant7559 Yea I play Gold. I haaattee the Chipp matchup.
Then again, if its not Potemkin or Sol, I'm probably miserable.
Another archetype is the heavy mixup characters after one knockdown and it feels like you're in 50/50 land forever until you guess right. Like R. Mika, and Zangief.
That's just a grappler functioning properly
My main Decapre is exactly that
@Stickyz GT Yeah cuz without that what are they gonna do💀
It feels like Akuma was meant for Street FIghter X Tekken in a game where everyone else's moveset and mechanics was modified to deal with it.
I think you missed the mark on Zoners that can rush down better than normal rushdown.
If you see Ferry in Granblue or Dhalsim in Sf5 they zone an when they get their 1 touch they immediately rush down an go for crazy mix. With their busted projectiles
I don't necessarily hate a specific archetype. I have more hate towards bad balance, and specific type of moves in different combinations.
You mean like if a move is really good with no downside? Or a move is really bad with no upside?
@@SquidwardProfilePic Basically that. Abusable safe or + moves, neutral bypassing safe or + moves as examples. Walk behind projectiles, command jump arcs that are hard to consistently anti air and easy to set up guessing gimmicks... there are sooooo many things wrong with fighting games I don't even know why I play them anymore.
Him talking about super powerful but low HP characters and not talking about Phoenix in UMVC3 stuns me.
I NEED MORE POWER
wonder how many people get this joke
She’s complicated. She in some ways is a bit absurd in terms of health because you get 2 chances to play instead of 1
AHHHH! I'm 8 days late and was still able to get my hands on that sweet sweet data mug! I really enjoy your positivity and its gotten me out of my shell to try online and fight actual people. I keep telling myself, the first round is just data! Let's goooooo!
I hate characters that overly depend on meter/installs. The kind that’s either “I have meter so it’s my turn” or “I don’t have meter so I’m losing”
It makes situations feel a lot less dynamic because there isn’t much you can to do turn around a situation in your control. It takes away a lot of the risk/reward of your options since you just have to wait a lot of times.
SFV G is one of the better implementations of this style of character I've seen in a while. The ground gimmick is a great way to balance around it. You are right that its usually poorly done most of the time.
Actually by far the worst example is seen in Smash Ultimate. There are many characters with powerful abilities tied to time passing or passive actions, like Wario, Joker, Cloud, and most notoriously Steve.
These characters are literally incentivized to avoid playing, not walling out and zoning with projectiles and spaced attacks, but just running circles and avoiding all interaction. It’s just awful to play out.
@@mikamoschella3410 Wario, if anything, is directly incentivized to get in close, considering that Ultimate buffed his Bite to charge the Gas faster.
Granted, even with landing Bites, it's still gonna be over a minute to charge😢
@TheGreektrojan G was nerfed multiple times though haha.
@@mehgamer467 This is true, I'm talking about his current state where he's good but not top tier.
You forgot all about Phoenix from UMVC3. She’s literally one touch BUT that means you’re also one touch if she opens you up.
for me it's characters that are playing a completely different game, and overpowered dlc that gets special treatment
I’ve never been able to wrap my head around charge characters. I just can’t seem to comprehend holding a button or direction while also doing other stuff on the controller, which sucks because some of my favorite fighting game characters is a charge character (big band) and I just can’t seem to get good as him.
Neatherrealm zoners, all of them. Also in For Honor with the recent changes to dodges, anyone with easy access to unblockables. You have to either dodge them or parry them, you go for the dodge, they feint their unblockable to a guard break and get a free heavy or a bash into heavy, you go for the parry and they feint and parry you, bash you, or dodge attack and your back into the mixer.
For Akuma, is it part of lore? Coz although the Dark Hadou makes him powerful, it also destroys his body (a high price to pay for such power)?
My least favorite archetype is whatever archetype I lost too. Even if it's the same one I'm playing they're playing it unfairly compared to me.
fighting games are not for you lol
Also I'm a Axl Main, my brother mains Chipp he's not good enough to beat me yet so when he tries to go in the air I try to hit him with a bomber or two, and he tends to chill on the jump ins
for me it’s low health but high damage characters/option characters because there’s always a big body who sucks but then this archetype get all the advantages but none of the drawbacks
The annoying thing about Akuma in Tekken is that they totally could have removed his fireball and it would be in character for him.
(Totally flexing on them by not even using some of his moves)
Bro, that mug is fire. A fine addition to my collection thank you
I would continue on your guest characters in Tekken thing by adding that I think the real issue is that any character that is "true to their origional game" in a way that breaks the rules of the game tend to cause issues. Sometimes it is cool! Other times you get Akuma in Tekken or for the Smashies in the audience they deal with that... a lot... the examples are all over the place. In general rule breaking characters are something else.
I was actually going to comment the same thing, with Smash as an example. I think there are a couple of ways in which you can implement characters with different universal mechanics, but it's an extremely tight rope to walk which I'd rather see avoided.
For example, Bayonetta works because, once you boil her down to her raw playstyle, she's a relatively slow but agile, highly combo-centric character with extremely strong recovery options. But even then, I think Bats Within are stupid.
Min Min works because despite her many oddities she's still balanced like a traditional zoner, and under those parameters she's relatively fair. And still, I think her edgeguard is stupid.
And then there are Kazuya and especially Steve who are so radically different from every other character that they just turn Smash into a minigame where you have to play around their tools, which are tools no one else gets so the chances that your character is equipped to deal with them are next to nothing, and regardless of if you win or lose you just got robbed of the chance to play the game you booted up to play.
eh, its fine in smash, that game was WAY too samey before the introduction of the more interesting characters.
If a character in the game is legal and not banned directly by the company that developed it, how can we even argue that they break the "rules"
@@ungeekfurioso4802 I mean more that they have a completely different set of mechanics. I don't mean they literally break the rules that is why I said sometimes they are fine. I just mean how they function is so divorced from other characters they break the foundation. This can be iffy because a lot of the times that means you need very specific solutions to dealing with that specific character not everyone in a cast has access to. I would argue Akuma and Geese are better designed examples of this issue because every character DOES have solutions to deal with them, they are just very divisive.
@Chazaqiel I don't think making minmin heavy AND having intangible arms is fair when you have sephiroth right over there who is light and has to be far safer than the character with the most range in the game. She isn't busted, but she is not balanced. Sephiroth is a much better example of a balanced ranged character outside of wing cheese and counter. Most ranged characters in fighting games have very low hp and struggle boxing. This is like sephiroth. Minmins oos isn't as bad and her recovery is really the only major weakness she has and even then it's not even bad. It's just below average. Not only that but she has a reflector for some reason? Why?
I want to play the most untouchable fun killing god forsaken zoner to ever exist. I want to be a VILLAIN, and always be respectful to my opponents, so they get emotional whiplash.
Zoners that also have a strong reversal move that cancels out all your effort to close the distance
Yes I mean JP specifically
There's a line in fighting games where all the studying of spacing and timing and combos must face human psychology. There are many amazing players out there who can learn to read exactly where they're standing and time hits and projectiles to the frame consistently - and I respect the time and effort that goes into that. But of those dedicated players, not as many manage to absorb that knowledge as actual usable skillsets and end up relying on characters that do exact things in exact ways every time so their math doesn't get thrown off.
That's why I've always loved characters where you can just throw a lot of if not all that jump & angle calculating stuff out the window and make your opponent tilt with pure unmitigated psychology by NOT doing what they expect when they're trained to only function in ideal predictable situations and cannot adapt in time to survive the match.
Guy, Gen and Vega in USSF4:AE (I will never stop calling it that,) were some of my best because I could do things deemed unusual. By using an EX Flying Barcelona (hope I remembered that right,). these types of players would never imagine someone wasting EX on purpose and will react as if you're intending to go for an attack... only to pull into the wall completely wasting the EX and rushing in for something totally bizarre. And just manipulating the arc and angle rendering pre-programmed visual cues obsolete. Like using EX Izuna Drop with Guy not to attack but go sailing over their heads making them whiff a wake up reaction and suddenly change sides. They never expect it when they see that EX spark up - the idea of intentionally wasting it to exploit its unusual movements doesn't occur in the heat of the moment. Only players who truly know their character as well as the mechanics can recognize this, dial back on the programmed reactions and instead watch you - hoping to figure you out and make a new strategy on the fly. As it should be, instead of endless poking waiting for a player to make a mistake.
The one that still makes me laugh is for whatever reason, in SF6 - most players seem to get brain fog when Chun Li starts sliding in from the other side of the stage on Lotus Stance Medium Punch under fireballs. I original did it to be funny and the psychological game for them to ask... "why would ANYONE do that!?" but it just... kept... working... over and over. Many times I could do 4 to 6 slides and get the trip because they expect you to do... anything else more sensical than to keep sliding as the actual attack. I love it.
11:49 I didn’t remember Rufus having such sumptuous jiggle physics
Im so glad I got my order in! I usually never see these kinds of things in time.
Okay but Haohmaru was sick in Soul Cal 6 though
If there's one thing I hate in fighting games it's long range characters, short range characters, and medium range characters.
My most hated archetype is learning to fight a player who has used one specific archetype character, and the moment you finally beat their main, they pull out their hidden secondary they never told you about and sends you straight to the shadow realm
That's not an archetype, that's just counter-picking.
@@markrobertson1116 Sounds like skill issue
you know... 2d in 3d could also easily be turned into "characters that don't follow the rules of the core game" i.e characters with air dashes in games almost entirely without them, or characters that can roll or dash past projectiles in games where thats not normally possible except by said characters. heck i think at one point where 3d in 2d was a thing?
yeah that coincides with the "hard to zone" discussed in the video. I personally love when characters define matchups (like Guilty Gear) but only if the resulting game is balanced & interesting (hard to do). The C. Viper example seemed very neat, reminded me of Fei Long.
@@quantumpotato sometimes when i think “characters that don’t follow the rules of the core game” the opposite is true when they LACK the tools that everyone else has, building meter by dealing damage, air dashes, rolls, supers, specials, etc it is more rare but i think i hate them more than anything especially when they end up better than the ones with said tools its rare and i cannot think of anyone of the top of my head probably because their usually rare and bad
@@likky1 yeah that's a good point. TOTALLY different characters feels bad, if it's too strongly defining it's often not balanced. Ron McDon's Za Wārudo in Hyperfight comes to mind. He stops time, sets you up then gets a combo in a game without combos.
@@quantumpotato a character that specifically lacks the ability to build meter by himself does come to mind (only through using a special) a character called gunvolt in blade strangers is meter dependant and HAS to either get hit or use a special that does nothing but make him stand still and build half a meter
@@likky1 Robo-KY did something like that, he only builds meter on his mat. He's a real goofy character. Kind of meta-defining in a way - I liked it because it's interesting though I can see how it's frustrating to play vs him and having to learn new Robo-Ky mechanics (meter, auto super, heat gauge & steam)
Rushdowns that are too good at mixing you up and/or all off his mix ups are non commital making it so once they get in which they easily do,they stay in really easy while constantly making you guess,making it feel like you are playing against a rushdown with the reward of a grappler
Yeah, I'm not a fan of characters that bend the rules of the game to make them more faithful. I definitely come more from Smash, I know we're not well liked in the FGC, bear with me.
But in Smash, combos don't really exist. Most characters if they have combos, it's usually a 2-3 hit true combo, or something that leads to a kill setup/edge guard. Some characters get ladder combos but at least they need platforms to do so. Using platforms in a "platform fighter."
So it's really strange to see characters like Bayonetta come in and get very long combos that lead to death. Or Ryu and Ken, that are allowed to cancel thier normals into specials and have auto turn around. Auto turn around in Smash literally eliminates the opponent's defensive options for no reason. Or Kazuya, that has so many infinites it's a wonder how he's still tournament legal. Or Steve, that's allowed to just build walls.
You can hate any type besides Shoto. Shoto may be boring but it’s (almost) essential to get new people learning the game’s unique mechanics since they’re so easy to pick up and play
2/5 archetypes in this video are Akuma
And yet people still love Akuma lol
“Boss” characters for me. Y’know you’re Hilda, Susanoo, Akuma, Devil and so on
Boy oh boy do I love the designated top-tier. That's the character intended by the developers to be good that suppresses other characters and doesn't have any counter pick.
Luke ins sfv cough cough
Ah my zoning brother. I also am a big hater when it comes to characters that counter zoning or are hard to anti-air. When I make plays that just hard counter whatever I'm doing, I get frustrated more and more and it's all downhill from there.
Dont play fighting games but I would hate playing against zoners if the game gave me limited options to counter it like JP in Street Fighter 6 or Robocop/Reiko in Mortal Kombat
Keep away characters that have full bullet hell projectiles, excellent mobility, huge combo damage, great normals, an invincible super, a clone super, projectiles with too much durability, meter drain mechanics, and excellent meter gain. It's Morrigan from umvc3. A plague on Chris G's house.
Also every character in injustice. That game had a way of making every character feel like cheap bullshit especially on maps with drones and dumpsters.
And to add on your akuma point, what happens when you give him all his strength, take away the weakness of low health and put him in a another game…. You have top 3 character in Tekken 7 for the last 5 years🤣🤣🤣
sounds like you havent played tekken 7 in the last 5 years if you think akuma is still even near top 3
@@thepjup4507 wait🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 who is above akuma rn. Dear god don’t say feng, Gesse, jin or zafina
@@Dat_coach_reg would like to know too lmao
Day 1 of asking JMCrofts to play Killer Instinct as Gargos and eat his own minions!
Minion-based characters (like puppets that behave independently of the player character) are always a nightmare to play against! I was surprised not to see Jack-o or Nappa in the video!
Characters that are inherently garbage just to be garbage (Dan in anything but a very few games, for example) and characters who feel like a waste of a character slot (most of the Soul Calibur V cast was this.) A character should never be a "struggle" to win with unless it's a "you" issue or their gameplan is meant to be inherently complex and is therefore gratifying by the nature of that complexity.
I'm very grateful that there are actually more than a few fighting games out there today that are so balanced the entire roster is basically "decent to excellent," but I'm also grateful for hilariously imbalanced games like Marvel and 3S, because you know what you're getting either way.
dan isnt inherently garbage to be garbage, hes inherently garbage cause its funny.
Whatever Deathstroke and Deadshot are in Injustice, just seeing Deadshot gameplay made me not wanna touch the sequel with a 10ft stick
My most hated archetype also happens to be the one I play in most games, the puppet character.
My first memory of fighting games was being decimated by these 2v1 cheaters and I thought it was so bullshit that I decided to play them myself. Lo and behold I discovered that I like cheating.
I've gotten better at fighting these types of character due to my experience with them but in most games they tend to have some ridiculous offensive sequences that are extremely hard to deal with and even harder to lab if you don't play them(except in gg +r, why don't more game include replay takeover???). Still nothing gets me as excited to gang up on some poor unsuspecting player with my imaginary buddies.
Some of the characters I play include Zato/Eddie from Guilty Gear, Shadow Labrys from Persona, Pom from Them's Fightin' Herds, Mario from Melty blood and more! They all have grade A bullshit when the right opportunity presents itself. Carl Clover looks really cool too so I might try him whenever I get into BlazBlue.
I think you're just a little down when someone out does you in your gimmick you learned and spent 140 hours in and slowly start feeling that all your training does nothing...no I'm not speaking from my personal experience
@@deyontemyers4109 🥲Been there, done that. Hey at least it looks really cool.
Akuma and Geese would be fine in Tekken if they just didn't have some incredibly damaging combos. Literally if they increased their knock back in combos or nerfed their RA/RD damage, it would be so much more fun to fight them.
another character that is impossible to zone is Smoke in MK9. he has an anti-projectile move much like nightwolf's except smoke's is faster, strongest AND it can be mantained, so you don't even have to react, also you can combo off of it. he also has a teleport punch similar to scorpion's but much much faster plus his move speed is very high. it almost seems like he was specifically designed to counter reptile.
I played against an Akuma pretty recently in Tekken 7 and they just played him really slow and kept their guard up, and essentially used him as a zoner. We got so close to running the timer out multiple times. Would not try to play against again tbh
My friend who plays Akuma in SF once said that Tekken 7 Akuma felt slower than usual and is more execution heavy when he tried learning the big boy demon flip combos.
He probably is slower in Tekken. This player played him more like a "turtle". Waiting for me to make a move and slowly doing any of the combos that took execution, if at all. Which was only when I got up to him. I've played more aggressive Akumas since and found that more enjoyable, even if I lost
"characters that negate zoning"
Basically the entirety of street fighter V
Im surprised u didn't mention smoke from mk9. He by far is the one character you cant spam on. He has moves dedicated towards spammers like his perry, and in my opinion the best Teleport in the game that comes out so quick and can follow u and hit you anywhere on screen twice and if you burn a meter can hit u 3 times.
My least favorite archetype is "i'm just clearly meant to be the best character in the game with bonkers frame data and combos but i'm squishy and maybe have one flaw that the ocean of people maining me will swear up and down balances it out"
See: basically all of the "glass cannon" superfast fiddly characters. Admittedly this is a bigger problem with platform fighters than traditional fighting games but still def a thing in them.
Street Fighter VI should include a Tekken character with a bunch of overpowered 3D mechanics.
For Smash fans it's swordfighters since they take up less than 5% of Ultimate's roster. XD
Also *_HOW HAS STORM NOT BEEN BANNED FROM COMPETITIVE MVC2 YET?!_*
I think my most hated archetype is puppet characters when their broken, when their like mid or lowtiers it’s whatever. Or characters that have no mix. Occasionally fighting games add the mids only characters, not even grapplers either, just fully rely on frame traps and making the opponent mess up by getting impatient because all they do is hit mids (but usually their good because they have a shit ton of plus frames)
Speaking of characters that feel out of place like 2d in 3d games, in doa 5 we had 4 characters from virtua fighters and man, that was odd,, they felt very strange to play against or with, even the sound was awkward
I think the worst archetypes are the ones that have REALLY good teleports like dahlsim. They’re fun to play with, but so freakin hard to beat
For me the worst are zoners who also have really strong grapples.
I main Jade in MK9 cause we were only playing during the breaks when I was working in the video game industry so I didn't care much. In MKX I switch to Mileena because Jade was MIA. This is also when I started playing Online..
Then MK11 came in and Jade was back...
I never received so many hate messages in such a short period of time hahaha
Probably the Comeback mechanic or Super the character kind of deal, which have the goal of maybe chipping 25% of your health while you dumpster them to reversal threshold, to then hit one confirm from a neutral interaction to a will it kill clip.
Yeah I hate any character that may put me in a sajam video
I hate playing against the archetype I play the most which is speedsters that poke and prod you to death.
My least favorite type of characters
1. AutoZoners I’m fine with regular zoning (hell I mostly play zoners) but characters where their zoning tools actively lock on to you is just not fun
2. Characters that can kinda just TOD with chip damage like ok I’ve been blocking your plus 15 on block moves and as soon as I manage to get out hey I’m dead to a jab
My most hated archetype is constant Armor characters like hulk, Colossus and Mech Zangief. It's like they are annihilating your efforts to win
Love how you showed 3rd strike Akuma and not 2nd impact akuma where he is completely out of control!
Oh yeah, second impact. He is absolutely insane. Don't even get me started with his shin version
Mixup characters are something my monkey brain is not equipped to handle. You're saying I have to not only block, but also block THE RIGHT WAY??? What a nightmare
The big wrestler guy that has lots of grappling moves (Zangief, Goro, Potemkin.)
It's like, I have to keep my distance if I don't want to get grabbed but if I try not to get too close then there's less combo opportunities for me.
I got to mention Phoenix from MvC3. She was basically Storm + Spiral from MvC2: rushdown, zoning, chip damage, teleports, big super, infinites, etc. but then throw in healing.
I actually think Phoenix is very close to being fair in that game. You really have to build a team around her and play around building the meter to turn her dark. That means you either have to play a team that can kill easily without meter/xfactor while also building the meter you need or risk using meter/xfactor and deal with a character that dies in one hit from pretty much any character. The only problem is xfactor level 3 is way too strong so it kinda negates the need to play the meter game as you can just risk being able to get the hit with normal Phoenix and convert into infinite. I think nerfing xfactor 3 would definitely make her a more manageable/less viable character.
@@zakk219 I think the thing is that having a team like the Phoenix/Morrigan shell who can spend a ton of meter, make the game annoying yet build a ton of meter to still have the ace in the sleeve absolutely makes it worthy of a mention. Having to make certain teams or come up with tech specifically meant to counter that them makes it somewhat unbalanced.
Besides, none of the characters mentioned in this video were unbeatable, they simply were top characters - which I think Phoenix (and Morrigan) are in this game. Additionally, many people would consider Phoenix and Morrigan to be two out of three of the best characters in this game, and having them have so much synergy on a team together is pretty noteworthy imo.
@@rhetttheehitman9771 That's fair. It is pretty notable that she works fairly well with most of the top tiers in the game. I really wish UMvC3 would have gotten at least one or two more patches to address some of the really dumb/broken stuff in the game.
Instead of no 2d characters in Tekken 8 they'll just put GG AC+R Slayer in not even modeled just the sprite
Absolutely love the thumbnail. It’s artistic brilliance.
Yo JM! Love the content as always man. Would love to see some hoodies in the merch line up instead of just T-shirts, I dont know the logistics regarding that, but I'd for sure cop a hoodie. Much love
The clip of Chipp get OHKOd by CH Ram super because of Gamma Blade will always be my favorite strive clip
Another example of zoners that also are rushdown characters:
- Deathstroke in Injustice 1
- Kabal in Mk9
The archetype of "I dominate the game with any button" infamously the current meta of Dragon Ball Fighterz.
As a grappler I must say zoners are my main terror. Goenitz coming to KoF 15 is just non stop PTSD.
But I must say that, in a more serious and less specifically biased note, the "every tool but low health, lmao" is probably the worst.
Probabky the overall most hated archetypes are those that don’t allow as much interaction as others.
So basically:
High end set play (stops footsies based gameplay and decisions once the win condition is gotten, examples arakune from blazblue, and ibuki from sf4)
Keepaway or runaway, stops footsies based gameplay because all you can really do is dash and jump towards them till you get lucky and get in. Examples, A2 dhalsim, mvc2 cable, blazblue NU
Armoured/big button grappler stops footsies because they armour through all of your buttons and grab you in the middle of your blockstrings so you are forced to just back away and run all game. Examples, zangief, Potemkin, tager
Over powered buttons character, stops footsies because theirs are just way way better than yours and they have more range, more damage, cover more options, and faster than yours. Example sf5 poison.
Basically I’ve found for most people that characters that stop footsies play in some way tend to be the most overall hated. After that it’s usually overtuned characters… keepaway or grappler or all around that are just a bit too good and don’t have weaknesses in their gameplan.
I think that the worst "type" would have to be the one that's "really hard to play due to execution/strategy being extremely demanding but also broken if that works right." Commonly used for puppet characters, a lot of anime games have a few - Johnny in Guilty Gear is the go-to example but there are a ton. I think that on an objective standpoint, this would have to be the WORST type of character. Because for lower level and even mid level players, they won't be having fun with them since they can't do the intended game plan that the character is meant to run. And for high level players who CAN, the character goes from being too weak because the players aren't meeting the high skill floor to way too strong to the point of being completely oppressive.
A character who is unplayable at low level, impractical/stressful at mid level, and broken at high level... Not fun for anyone. Except the people who are both high level players who main them, and even then they might complain about their own character because they could say "look at how much work I have to put in ooooh my hands"
c viper is kinda like this too
Just note: those high level players didnt just *plop* into existence. They have to at some point pick up that character right and invested time into them. Isnt a it a fair deal if you invest a lot into something, the pay-out should be (or feel) at least equal to that.
My least favorite archetype in fighting games is the kind that has too good of a rushdown. I’m more of a defensive player, waiting for openings to punish my opponents and diving in when they whiff attacks, but when a character is so fast that it feels like they have no endlag on any move they throw out, and you have to guess like 5 50/50’s correct before a blockstring that seems entirely safe finally ends, it just feels like you’re watching your opponent play the game while you can’t. Best example I can think of is Beowulf in skullgirls.
My second least favorite is the type that has an entire moveset that is deceptively long range. It’s incredibly difficult (for me at least) to find an opening on a character that can cover half the horizontal distance of the stage with one non-projectile attack. The most prolific examples I can think of are potemkin from guilty gear, Elena from street fighter 3 3rd strike, and byleth from smash bros.
Low health characters are annoying but they could be the good Arcsys classic of every tool in the game , stupid rps, high damage and mix characters WITH average or in Nagoriyuki’s case High health . Would much rather deal with a low health toolbox character than a high health one
MY MAN.
Alex's theme got me over here grooving. I love that version!
What is the track used at 7:13? It sounds oddly familiar...
Personally speaking:
Smash Bros: Zoners
KOF: Grapplers