If only Sakurai heard of the character Black Shadow from the F-Zero series, I’m pretty sure he knows of Blood Falcon since he has been an alt for Falcon since 64 and in the story mode GX Black Shadow is catches Captain Falcon and creates Blood Falcon with cloning device so Blood and Black Shadow have a character relation too.
@@squallleonhart9387 From the few F-Zero I heard from, they want Black Falcon to be his own character while Blood Falcon should have SmashDorf's moveset.
Yup, Falcon. A character whose moveset was already made up to begin with. Ganondorf's sword isn't even something he uses from Ocarina, it was from a trailer from a game that never came out.
@@castform7 If I had a nickel for every Smash character with a moveset that is made up, I would have 4 nickels, 7 if you count the Miis seperetly. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird it happened twice. Should have only happened 3 times, 6 times if you count the Miis seperetly.
It would be even more depressing if the next Smash game happens and Sonic still has his same moveset. Like, he literally had a mainline title where he had different offensive moves.
He could also be gone. And I would welcome that, solely because while Sonic is iconic, he is iconic because he is the iconic annoying character, Smash’s stances on using characters mean that he will have the same problems if not worse if he is in Smash 6, and I imagine that Smash 5 is so ambitious that if a Smash 6 appears they really will work with characters that originate from Nintendo games.
@@iantaakalla8180 Not likely. Sonic and Mario's rivalry is too significant. Would the fans really want a Nintendo fighting game where they couldn't duke it out? Plus, lots of iconic characters aren't really Nintendo's; they're third-party, like Pac Man and Simon. Should we remove them too, by that logic? I don't want them getting rid of my precious Mega Man, personally.
I'd argue that Frontiers moveset just isnt well known enough. Frontiers got beat out in sales by all of the good 3D sonic games (except Shadow the Hedgehog). It was a good game, for sure, but I don't think anything would be as iconic as... a 6th spindash. In general, they don't often do moveset changes anyhow. The only two I can think of is Ganon gaining a sword to distinguish him from Falcon, and Link getting remote bombs (Presumably because of Young Link returning, but also BotW sold a bajillion copies)
I’m confused at what Sephiroth fans want. He’s a decent mid tier. He could be better, but that applies to most of the roster. He has weaknesses, but that’s because he has clear strengths. It’s not like Little Mac where the character concept is broken. It’s just that Sephiroth did not end up a broken top tier like a lot of people seemed to have wanted him to be.
Maybe just making him more consistent with certain things, like the location of the sweet spot on his sword and the percentage when One Wing activates? The video did specifically mention those inconsistencies as annoyances.
I guess Sephiroth has issues that are similar to those of most characters that are initially bosses. Personally, I think if we put that aside, Sephiroth is well made, but my knowledge of FF is pretty much limited to Advent Children so my opinion may not count.
Sonic feels like a mii brawler with fucky stats and moves, not a massive ip fighter. Animations are worse than stiff and it’s just captain falcon & falco movesets copy and pasted
@@stanley8006 i think hes perfectly designed honestly people react so negatively to the lack of air mobility but honestly his isint even the worst lol many other fighters such as kazuya and incineroar have objectively worse recoveries that are far more predictable ESPECIALLY as a mac main when u can easily just counter their recoveries when they try to get back on stage people gotta stop acting like 99% of the games air based when most characters cant even work their best in air either
yeah he's great in melee, bad in 64 (but being bad in 64 isn't as bad a deal as other smash games), none existant in brawl, great in 4 but his down b offstage is cancer and aids in ultimate. He deserves better then being a lame bs char.
@@keksidy As a Luigi main I sadly agree. He is a one sided character like sonic. He is fun to play as but not at all to play against. Especially when your stock spontaneous combusts because you get grabbed a zero.
Luigi is still really funny He had more options to gimp and cheese you in smash 4 than he does in this game He’s more one dimensional than before but he’s still really fun to watch
Olimar coming from a strategy game about careful positioning and time management and that translating to a floaty character that runs away while spamming projectiles has to be among the worst designs in any game ever.
@@PopcornBunni I miss having 6 Pikmin out at a time and I would sacrifice 8 Player Smash for it, does anybody even still care about it or have that many friends to play with? Imagine the cost of getting a specific controller for some who have a preference.
@@nascour5991 I kinda wish Young Link's Fire Arrow that actually sets up follow ups would be more common among projectile users (conceding that Fire Arrow spam needs to be nerfed tho).
1:32 I'd like to add that mac's combo game over the past few years has developed to the point where aerials, specifically up air, have become critical options in his kill confirm flowchart. Tarakatori won a huge local in japan a few months ago (a weekly, but with multiple top 20 players) using exclusively little mac; he beat shuton's aegis in winners' finals while crucially utilising up air extensions to confirm kills off stray tilts. not to mention he beat the world #2 minmin player in the same top 8 and edgeguarded them with a fair to win the set.
Yeah, Smash Olimar should have been brought up for not having his Pikmin's maturity stages matter. He fits right in for all 3 categories as well: -Bad execution - overencouraged to camp -Poorly aged - more like was a lich before even being added in Brawl, maturity stages doing nothing is incredibly stupid -Toxic opponent - S I D E B S P A M
@@MasterKnightDH First point- What do you expect? His whole moveset in pikmin is punch and throw pikmin. Second- that is true, maturity stages should affect pikmin stats and not only be an aesthetic change; but that's just a minor dud and not an actual horrible problem that ruins the whole character. Third point- grow up, every character has at least one annoying spammable attack like Inkling's Splat Roller or Ness' PK Fire... I feel like the only things that would help Olimar would be the maturation actually affecting pikmin stats, making blue pikmin deal water damage and a hud indicator for the pikmin order rather than a stupid triangle above the currently selected pikmin
Olimar is good as it is, even if most people get salty, because people complaining about him are just salty casuals that can't deal with projectiles. Like what do they expect? Making him an even slower and lumbering character that can't get his ass out of the ground? He'll go straight into D Tier if we take in mind how horrible are the characters with low agility like Ganondorf, Little Mac, King Dedede, Doctor Mario, Ivysaur and Donkey Kong.
@@brandonwilliams6119 Assuming that design document was for Smash 6, development began in April 2022. So Shadow Generations might be too late to be referenced in Smash 6 in any meaningful capacity gameplay-wise unless they wait until DLC.
I DEFINTELY disagree on Seph... he's mostly VERY well designed, apart from his weight and random inconsistencies with certain moves. He is SOOOO much fun to play!
Yah, Sephiroth i disagreed with as well. Like, seriously? His frame dats isn’t even THAT BAD, it’s actually pretty good on some moves considering how big they are.
While I agree with most of these, I would actually disagree with Hero. Sure, he's not as representative of the Dragon Quest games like you said, but something about having a character this random makes it a LOT more interesting than they probably would've been otherwise (we already have a lot of other RPG characters anyway) Maybe the balancing could've been handled a little differently, fair, but I'm still a fan of the end result I'll give you the language thing though, they REALLY should've put symbols on the spells
If we only had to keep one JRPG character out of all the DLC I would definitely choose Hero, and this is coming from someone who loves Sephiroth too. But even then not even the inclusion of Hero could shut up Goku fans.
Hard agree, Hero is not that bad aside from a few traits, which is far from being exclusive to Hero. In addition to the symbols, random crits are also quite stupid and really don't add much since Pokemon, Persona, Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem (for the most part) have done pretty much fine without random criticals. Or if people have problems with their representation, its probably not for excluding critical hits.
@@Krona-fb4dn Mother has critical hits too - pretty quirky, iconic critical hits might I add - and yet Ness and Lucas have done fine without random crits in Super Smash Bros as well. It would actually be pretty thematic if they did have crits in Smash, because...well, crits in Mother go "SMAAAAAAASH". It would be pretty fun if a sweet-spotted fully-charged smash attack from Ness or Lucas showed a "SMAAAAAAASH" graphic next to them with accompanying sound effect if they successfully hit the opponent.
@@k-leb4671 Dear god, it would be dopamine to rival a hatchet man. Anyhow, I honestly think Hero would have been perfectly fine without crits, and I have him as a secondary. No reason for me to just occasionally kill people at 20% because I used Psyche Up and rolled lucky on an F-Smash.
Hot take: I don't actually think the main issue with Sonic is his moveset, it's his animations. The majority of his attacks, including the ones where he isn't curling into a ball, are all painfully generic or borderline slapstick (seriously what is that f-smash and f-air?) To the point where I'd argue the fun isn't even in fighting with the character but just moving around as him. The feeling of chaining your specials together to expertly manuevar around platforms, doding projectiles and attacks and quickly closing the distance to your opponent is great! But when you start attacking, the fun's over. You're now throwing out the same basic one-two combo with soulless moves from a character whose face is perpetually frozen in a smile. Realisiticly, the best way to "overhaul" Sonic for the next game is redo a ton of his animations. Let him have emotions and radiate the cool & flashy aura people love him for. Let him pull off tricks after a homing attack, or use more breakdancing inspired moves for smash attacks and aerials. Have his attacks and movement show him off in ways equivalent or more exciting than Captain Falcon. And I gaurantee much less people would adapt the campy playstyle, despite having the same mechanics, on the virtue of WANTING to be fast and aggressive just by the virtue of how cool it looks.
The Forward Smash in particular is actually the Windup Punch from _Sonic The Fighters,_ where it's one of Sonic's listed moves (half-circle forward + punch) from there. I'd honestly keep that, but rework a lot of Sonic's kit to include more varied standard moves; like, for instance, the Drop Dash from _Mania_ as part of Sonic's Down Special (activated by charging up in mid-air), his Sonic Eagle heel kick from _Battle_ as his f-air, the Insta-Shield from _3 & Knuckles_ for the n-air (which could also deflect projectiles if timed just right), the Humming Top from the _Advance_ series as his b-air, and the Stomp from _Unleashed_ onward for d-air. Absolutely loads of untapped potential with what he can do now!
I don't get why Kazuya's final smash is both a trapping final smash and a state-wide final smash at the same time? Either shoot the multiple lasers right now or have the cutscene be longer by showing physical attacks and finish off with multiple lasers
Kazuya's overdesign just pisses me off. It kind of shows a dumb bias Sakurai has, which leaves more of a bad taste in my mouth than hyped for a Tekkan rep. If he cared so much about fighting games, why didn't he give the same treatment with Street Fighter and Fatal Fury?
5:53 heavily incorrect and Sephiroth’s honest issue is the fact that competitively wise he’s balanced. His speed and range making him oppressive to try and approach so having him be a tall easy character to combo is valid. The weight is much though id say it’s an oversight that can be midigated
I'd also say that the wing mechanics feels way too gimped. If he's gonna be a lighter character, I don't see the issue in him keeping the wing until he loses the stock
@@gv82089like if he gets a kill with an edgeguard and he loses his wing he can just die which is stupid Just let him keep it until he lands or is at like 150%
Yeah sephi is one of the few I disagree with being here. Agree with you, he’s too honest. I wish they buffed his weight. I’d be fine with sephiroth being much stronger. Very cool character.
I think Sephiroth was only put in the game to make up for the lack of content FINAL FANTASY 7 had when Cloud got in the game because he only came with 2 songs
Ah yes, Little Mac, the ironic punching bag of the Smash roster. To be honest, I always thought his design philosophy was kinda dumb from the start. Like, yeah, he is just “a guy,” but the Punch-Out universe is still pretty divorced from reality. Real-life competitive boxing divides playership by weight class, yet puny Mac is regularly going up against giant brutes like King Hippo and Bald Bull all the time. Not to mention the WVBA somehow allowing boxers to bring safety padding, “performance enhancing” drinks, makeshift armor, magic powers, and full-on weapons into the ring. It’d honestly be fine to buff up Mac’s aerials to make them stronger and more useful-his sub-par recovery game is already a severe drawback. It makes him a sort of rushdown, swarming fighter, one who wants to stay in the opponent’s face as much as possible, hit them where it really hurts, and keep wailing on them, no matter how many hits he takes in the process. You know, basically the gameplay of Punch-Out?
He really should have (an adaptation of) the Star Punch system instead of the KO meter too. And totally agree on actually giving him an aerial game. I love the way he's done here: ruclips.net/video/dsvKFIKPeRE/видео.html
I don't mind his recovery, it just takes a good amount of getting used to at first. And of course you can be ledge guarded easily... Looking at you Sora... But learning how to counter their approach is the best part of playing Mac for me. You have to learn how the opponent plays in order to reach your max potential.
@@beethovenlivesupstairs4182 Tournament players and casuals alike whine about it tho. He's too ineffective on the former level and too good on the latter level. The problem is his extremes, not his low-tier status.
@quillion3rdoption i don't think anyone understands little mac but little mac mains. Little Mac's design is fine being the polar opp of Jigglypuff but people harp on the same points without any nuance to them. Little Mac having a "bad" air game is ok, its never been non existant as people say it is (sans his back air), the KO punch is scary but its... not good as people say it is and lit every other comeback mechanic is better than it. His recovery is really bad but not on its face. Im ok with Mac having a nerf in power if all the little things that make his recovery god awful was gone
I do think Banjo needs some tweaks, but I feel the hate is a bit overblown and often comes from people who expected the dlc characters to be nothing but gimmicks
I disagree completely with Sephiroth being on this list. Maybe I’m biased because he’s my main. but in my opinion, he makes you feel like you are a final boss with plenty of moves that are pretty easy to exploit if you see them coming, but if you don’t see them coming, he will manipulate you straight into his cards and you will be in his despair just how he manipulated everyone in Final Fantasy VII, and one wing is one of the healthiest comeback mechanics in the game, compared to the others, which just give you a new cheap ability to destroy someone’s stock, this just gives you some character buffs, that’s all. Plus all of his animations are just some *chefs kiss*. The only reason he fell off is because a lot of his weaknesses have become much more exploitable, including his light weight, which I do believe is pretty unnecessary. But that happened with a lot of characters in this game.
Fellow Sephiroth main here. I pretty much agree. He is a mid tier, and overall fairly balanced. One wing could be a little bit more understandable, and he could use slight buffs, but overall he is in a good place. He feels fun to play, and his strengths of massive range seems fairly balanced by his weaknesses. Also, no idea what Delzethin was talking about with the two sweetspot types being a problem. I like having the option, and it helps different moves be distinct. Lots of poke moves for ultra long range, slashes for the kills.
@@Fredysaurus having trouble trying to escape a ledge that’s a problem then almost every character has to deal with some degree and as for f-tilt been way too long that’s one of the reasons that makes him feel so strong. You have all the power and the sword that is so long and it’s making it really hard for your opponents to get in.
Agreed with your final boss statement. No problems with the one winged angel here, I just honestly wish he was buffed. I love fighting against him since he feels like a boss fight. I just wish the fight was a little harder lol.
Regarding Kirby, i'm just genuinely shocked that Inhale still doesn't work like it how does in his home series. That's literally the thing he's been doing since before copy abilities, how has it been left as an awful mimic of itself for literal decades.
I love how characters like Mario (with his dash attack), Megaman and even Cloud (with their down tilts) can do slide attacks but Kirby gets a silly looking foot poke when he too can slide in his games.
@@devoniandirk It never feels like I'm incentivised to use Inhale because of its flaws. I also wish the Star Bullets he spat out were better. Literally his main attack when he's abilityless and it sucks. Villager and Isabelle's Pocket is better at doing it.
Inhale's usefulness varies, but typically if the foe has a projectile as their neutral it can be a huge help with Kirby's short range. /My/ problem with the inhale though, is that inhaling projectiles themselves is utterly pointless and that infuriates me. Why does Kirby get punished MORE for inhaling a small projectile than just taking the hit? He gets caught up in so much end lag auto-swallowing them, and heals way too little to warrant it-- I just wish he could hold any projectile in his mouth and shoot out an appropriately sized star.
Inhale is the best it's ever been in Ultimate, yet it still sucks as a reflector! It's great vs the few "big" projectiles, but against most of the other projectiles? Unviable. That's NOT how Kirby plays in his games, yet some folks don't think Kirby should get a revamp lol.
It has to be Sonic for me. The entire representation of the Sonic franchise in Smash seems not to understand any of the series' appeal in the first place, pulling most prominently from games that aren't representative of the series today (Sonic 1 and Sonic Lost World stages, cut down vocal tracks, complete lack of personality or edge). I almost think the entire moveset is unsalvageable, I'd rather they start from scratch barring maybe a couple of the specials. The current moveset and stages are almost disrespectful of Sonic's legacy as a platforming mascot compared to a character like Banjo which, despite the lacking moveset, feels filled with love and care for the original franchise. He was a rushed character before movesets were this complicated, but it has been far too long.
I'd say the moveset isn't completely unsalvageable, look at his Project M moveset, it takes his official one fixes what actually is broken but keeps what isn't, and even though Project M is pretty old now the moveset still holds and he really needs something like that. The representation for the rest of the series outside of his moveset will definitely get some changes since the Sonic series is no longer what it was back when Ultimate was in development. SEGA will likely want changes to fit what the Sonic series is now than how it was then.
I remember being so disappointed when I saw that a Lost World stage was chosen to be added to Smash when there were so many better options to pick from.
Even as a Luigi main, he should 100% be on this list. He is a one sided character like sonic. He is fun to play as but not at all to play against. Especially when your stock spontaneous combusts because you get grabbed at zero. Although coming into this smash game I wished he would be more viable, I would have not wanted it to be like this.
My issue with Samus is that they make every aspect of fighting her a weighted guessing minigame, from neutral to advantage+disadvantage. With Dread's moveset I feel like she could be a fun mid to close-range zoner that focuses on pressuring from range and skillfully parrying any close-range pressure against her. I've never liked this hyper-defensive character that gets rewarded even when she fails to zone.
8:33 Honestly I don’t think DK’s moveset is bad, animation wise he really needs an update making him a bit overconfident and not taking the fight seriously at low percents but actually deciding to lock in when his opponent actually starts to put up a real fight would do wonders to his personality which he’s really lacking in smash. The only major changes I would make to his moveset would be giving him the barrel cannon as an up special and changing his side special into the Sonic Clap from Jungle beat, a tool for DK to neutralize energy projectiles and disable normal ones, allowing DK to pick them up and use them for himself, I don’t think he needs the barrel toss move imo because it just feels a bit forced into his moveset even if it’s an iconic part of his series.
@@waheedabdullah6371 honestly the I had was him uppercutting the opponent and causing them to accidentally land onto the Banana hoard destroying some of the Bananas right infront of a furious DK who beats the tar out of the opponents before launching them out of the hoard with another uppercut.
I thought this too. I've only played Tropical Freeze but that was his most recent game and he is very straight forward in that game. The only thing I feel like we're missing is the presence of some kind of barrel in his moveset but other than that, I'm not sure what you would do moveset wise to "modernize" DK. What I think they can do to make him feel less generic is *stop using these stock monkey sounds for him.* That's my biggest problem with him. DK has very distinct recognizable monkey sounds but it's never used over "big generic gorilla". It was fine in Melee but now I think it's gotten to the point where you should just give him his voice from the games he's in (same goes for Diddy and Bowser)
Wolf, fox, pokemon trainer, lucina, Krool, falcon, mii brawler, and bayo are some of my faves in terms of design. If you're curious i'll explain why for each.
@@Veilure well yeah. He's a great all rounder for teaching you the game. Projectile, disjoints, comboes, movement, he has it all. On top of that, he's a good character without being broken. He's great design.
17:57 This is why I lost interest in playing G&W after maining him in Brawl and Sm4sh. Sure, he got stronger, but at the same time it mostly felt like it came from cheap-ish spammable moves to the point he made me feel more carried than satisfied or skilled when playing him.
I hate how much it reflects his tournament performances. Hurt, BeastModePaul, Tweek, and Light get nothing from calling the character out unless it’s a simple kill move or kill confirm, and if you dare counter play him with projectiles, you lose your stock stupidly early because Bucket isn’t properly nerfed to account how unfair and unhinged his close-up game is. Up-air, up-b, chef, and down-b should be nerfed if they want anyone to actually have fun fighting him.
I’m honestly shocked that Olimar wasn’t mentioned here. For a character that comes from a RTS game, there isn’t really much “strategy” to his Smash gameplay. I really hate how his smash design just boils down to just running away and mindlessly throwing Pikmim at the opponent (which can rack up a STUPID amount of damage, btw), and spamming his ridiculously overtuned smash attacks. Plus, the Pikmin sticking on to the opponent and having your attacks be slowed down by them in the process is really stupid IMO, and the worst of them all is them having such a high-priority hurtbox that allows them to completely SPONGE a fully-charged Seamus Charge Shot is so horrible! Not to mention: his animations all looks so similar to each other, making it hard to tell what move he’s gonna throw out next. Just look at his Side B, his Forward Smash, and his grab animation back to back, and you’ll see what I mean. Also, does anyone else feel like his Neutral Special, Pikmin Pluck, feels like a wasted special slot? I feel it could’ve easily have been a shield-special, akin to Inkling’s ink refill mechanic, where he can quickly pluck new Pikmin like that, to make way for a different, more usable Neutral Special from his games (not sure what, but something can be thought of.)
For anything, its probably due to his absurd rarity at most levels so he flies way under the radar. That and his faults are not immediately obvious, like Mac or Sonic.
There is a lot of misinformation in this post that I can see why you think he is badly represented. I think his animations definitely need work though, but a lot of what you said is just completely incorrect. The only Pikmin that can even tank a Samus charge shot is yellow since charge shot is electric (and yellow is electric type). The other Pikmin will completely just die. Any other projectile for the most part will also block it like young link bomb depending on its strength (so if you just meant taking the hit then that's not even unique to olimar). I think there are somethings you should research more. Upsmash was overturned at launch, but his spamming smash attacks as well is a recipe for failure and his smash attacks get killed (which puts you without Pikmin).
I’d say Olimar is a character who lives and dies by his janky nature. He’s got some crazy stuff that he can do but it’s all balanced out by him being inconsistent almost by design. For every upside Pikmin jank gives him there’s a downside.
@@the3dluxe53 I've played against some solid olimars online (I play Ridley), his attacks do feel pretty stubby and without pikmin, he's genuinely the same tier as Sopo.
I think Sonic's main and biggest problem is his speed ironically. He blitzes the second fastest character in the game. Accurate but not conducive to a healthy character when running away is the optimal option. I don't even think his moveset is that awful. People play up the ball but (not counting Down Throw) the only egregious one out of the 5 (yes he only has 5) is Side B which should probably be the boost at this point (non damaging move, of course). With one or two more move changes along with making Sonic *want* to fight you and bringing some more expression to his face, I think Sonic should be just fine.
One thing I thought of is to bring the mechanic from his early games where he games over if you took too long to finish. If time runs out in a competitive match (I was thinking this should only apply in 1v1 with no items and two min per stock at least), but if match goes to time, sonic would immediately lose. This would allow him to keep his defining super speed while also putting a risk to using to run away. This probably would encourage his opponents to try and camp him out, but I feel that sonic has plenty of tools to deal with it. I feel we already did something similar with Jigglypuff insta dying if her shield breaks.I do also agree that side b should be boost. But I feel timeouts being negative for sonic would encourage him to play more aggressively while not having to neuter his speed for balancing sake. Is it a bit of an extreme method? Yes, but his speed is also extreme and that is a defining characteristic of sonic and having another extreme to balance that huge bonus would be more fair.
Also make the man more expressive. He one of the most personable characters in his series and yet it barely show in his moveset. Let him pose after a successful homing shot. Give him facial expressions besides the smirk he constantly has. Little things like that to make him feel like a living being and not a dude in a mascot outfit which is how sonic feels in smash.
@@castform7 Another thing that sucks about Sonic is there not being a single Ring referenced anywhere in Sonic’s moveset, taunts, stages or victory animations, meanwhile Mario gets to have Coins in his up b and on that NSMB2 stage where if you collect them you turn gold, the Ring SFX is a very iconic video game sound effect and it’s nowhere to be found, not even on Sonic’s Stages to collect for some cool fun power up or something. Oh and Castlevania gets have that Death Scythe item despite being a 3rd Party, yeah I know Pac-Man or rather Bamco has items too since they helped to develop Smash, but a Sonic item would’ve been cool too.
His speed isn't particularly accurate to his games. Especially in the case of his 2D platformers, the speed he garners is meant to be gained through momentum. He has bad traction, bad accelleration, and bad air control because he is meant to get to his top speed and the challenge is to keep that speed though tight jump timing. The momentum aspect is lost entirely in Smash since he can just dash from 0-100 instantly and has insane priority on his burst movement-based attacks. With the way Smash handles running, though, it's virtually impossible to recreate. The best you could do is make his movement, specials, and jumps super committal by, for example, removing his ability to spin dash across the stage, jump, and then start a spindash again mid air to flinging across the stage the opposite way. Certain mods of other smash games do handle this particular aspect a little better. For example, Smash 64 Remix makes him only able to initiate his down-B spin dash in the same direction he's already facing, with the Melee Akaneia build following suit and making his Side-B a charged up Light Speed Dash ala Sonic Adventure 1. Couple changes to that strategy with making his air speed contingent on his grounded momentum into the jump with little wiggle room and his ability to play passively is weakened substantially.
The mention of Kirby is super important. He deserves so much more. If the flaws with his actual character designed were addressed, I think he would be great, and NOT continue to be low tier I think more copy abilities should be represented in his moveset, kinda similar to Megaman. A lot of them could make up for his flaws with lackluster range and so on
I'm no competitive player but as a Banjo main, I've noticed if you bait opponents with the egg moves and then rushdown on them, it tends to throw them off guard since most people are expecting egg spam
As soon as I saw the title of the video, I knew Sonic was going to be on here somewhere, I did not expect him to be the absolute worst designed character. So much missed potential with his moveset.
I think the supposed point is that Little Mac has never been shown fighting in the air in his games, so why depict Little Mac fighting in the air except the bare minimum? Except the issue is that at least with earlier fighters movesets have been made out of nothing, not even movement frames in their own games suggestive of something. Furthermore, even in newer design they do not always execute the purpose of the character nicely. So why should Little Mac being just a boxer prevent him from having any aerial game? It certainly should not be good because Smash practices faithfulness to the series in some manner, but the point is that he should defend himself in the air in general but as a last-ditch effort instead of being unable to at all.
the problem is that fighting against little mac just isn't very fun. what's the solution to a character with strong ground moves and terrible aerials? Stay in the air and run away. what do you do about a 1 hit ko move that lasts for a limited time? Stay in the air and run away. i really think giving him an actual air game, and then somewhat toning back his ground moves, could make him a lot more fun to fight. compare it to actual punch out - you definitely have to be defensive, but you can't just run away. keep his bad disadvantage, keep his bad recovery, make it so if he makes one mistake he can get punished hard. but give him more options, make his game plan more interesting so it isn't straightforward to fight.
It's great that this moveset discussion is holistically focused around gameplay function, source reference, and balance alike! I'm not a fan of moveset discussion that's only focused on one of those three things.
5:44 Alright, I can’t help but laugh from this scene. I can’t speak for most of these characters- I’m a casual person who mostly focuses on the characters I like and plays casually with friends. I would appreciate the older veterans getting modernized like DK and Ganondorf. The one change I really want, though, is DK getting his voice from the games. They had DK’s voice actor record new lines for Ultimate! He was right there to give DK his actual voice! And I cannot in any regard agree with Sakurai- when a character has eyes popping out of their head in a very cartoony manner, they get a cartoony voice because a realistic gorilla voice to make him intimidating DOES NOT work. Yes, it’s a small thing that doesn’t affect gameplay, but it shows an entire lack of awareness of the character as he is now. Also, yes, I would love to see a Best Designed characters video. Would be nice to follow the negative with the positive, and see which of the cast best embody what they are for Smash and their home games. …Oh, and Ness’ PK Fire is INFURIATING. I stopped online Smash against randoms ENTIRELY back in 4 because of it, and Ultimate shows it’s still obnoxious.
I'm not going to lie, and I really do hate having to say this, but minor skill issue. Ness is one of those characters that forces you to play a bit slower than usual, play around his whims. Understandably not fun if you aren't used to the matchup. I get a ton of practice against Ness since my friend plays him, and it does take time to figure out the matchup. Mostly, its just approaching with shield and punishing with out-of-shield options. Alternatively, spam harder than the Ness can (Character Dependant).
@@sicklysweetdenouement I mean, I DID say I am a casual player. Also, the bulk of your reply is very insightful and respectable… so the “minor skill issue” thing is really unnecessary.
@wootmasterzorsx Ah, do forgive me. I got used to the general communities attitude being to complain in circles while practically ignoring advice, so I suppose I just naturally assume bad faith reactions at all turns.
@@sicklysweetdenouement It’s fine, I very much appreciate the advice. I will admit, given my casual play style, I’m not super likely to put it in practice, but I still am more than willing to accept the advice. And again, I really appreciate hearing all this, since learning to improve is important, even for a casual player like me. I’ve played against friends and my brother plenty and had to learn to play around their play styles. And I have definitely improved from the days when I could never win against some of them.
While I do feel a little called out as a Min Min main, I completely get it. Especially considering that you can’t stop her limbs by hitting them like you can in ARMS. Funny enough, my pitch for Twintelle before we even knew that we were getting an ARMS character was to have the extending lives be only mapped to specials while the standard attacks were more normal (since Twintelle still had her actual normal arms & is canonically a bodybuilder). As for Lucario’s play rate, while you’re generally right in this specific case, popular characters can sometimes be not played all that often. Chun-Li for example is generally the middle of the pack when it comes to player usage in Street Fighter 6, & Menat was barely used at all in SFV despite her popularity. And with Little Mac, I always imagined him fighting more like an out boxer (Ex: Ed) with how Punch-Out has always been about weaving your opponent as you learn their patterns & punish accordingly.
If you could stop her limbs by hitting them, she’d be a useless character and never get hits in. She might as well not have arms/hands at all. Plus you only get hit once, so it’s not like you’re being pummeled from a distance. Getting caught in Ness’ PK Thunder or PK Fire is way more annoying. If you’re caught in PK Fire, they’re close enough to get a smash attack on you while you’re essentially paralyzed. If Min Min hits you, she can only get one other arm punch attack in, and it has to be one that can reach the same distance. She’s also not good up close. If she misses, she’s a sitting duck and can easily get hit.
What I don't get is why couldn't Corrin's victory animations referenced all 3 paths?: First victory animation has the Hoshido siblings praising Corrin and Corrin would say something like, "Let us bring peace for Hoshido!" Second victory animation can have all the Nohr siblings praising Corrin and Corrin would say, "For the glory of Nohr!" And the final victory animation has both Hoshido and Nohr siblings praising Corrin and Corrin would say, "Just like my fate, I have chosen my own victory!"
Ehh who cares about Corrin of all characters, they were only a DLC for their time of being the current FOTM protagonist, they will likely get replaced with a new FE protagonist. Delzethin should make a video about Smash’s music selection and point out all the 4 “Lost in thoughts all alone” tracks as a joke because that’s all the music fates ever got lol
3:52 okay I will defend Hero since Arguably the RNG focus making it less competitive is the focus. Its fun for people like me to just throw Hero on for a match and just throw out spells at random and see what works. That being said, I can't say much on how it represents the Dragon Quest games. My thought was they were worried about Hero looking "boring" to non-JRPG fans (particularly the ones complaining about 'generic swordies') So they offset it with a crazy gimmick. I'm fine with Hero's kit as it is now but I can see the argument that it doesnt fit them. 6:49 also small disagree but just on Up special. The high jump makes no sense as an aerial move and Kazooie specifically has a flying move that would've made more sense. Its still weird that Sakurai didnt do that instead but its ultimately pretty minor. Personally, my least favorite design is Byleth, and ironically, she's from the only Fire Emblem game I've played. I love Roy, and I like playing Lucina, Robin and even Corrin, but Byleth's design felt like the devs didnt trust the whip sword + Divine pulse to placate people so they gave her a big gimmick of using weapons on each button for no other reason than "now you cant say she's JUST a swordie." IMO, the kit doesnt represent Byleth well at all. Its the same thing I said for Hero's kit but Hero's feels more justified as a guest and being such an influential character. I think Byleth's kit would've been fine if it was just the sword of the creator because the main people who'd complain are the people who just hate she has a sword at all *OR* if they picked literally any of 3 house leaders for the slot instead; but Sakurai and Nintendo refuse to pick anyone but the protagonist for some reason unless they can be a clone.
I like Hero, but I also think he’d be a bit lame if he only had 4 options for spells. Sure, I’d probably cut out some because there’s a bunch that are virtually useless other than seemingly referencing the games, but I like having an assortment. If you want to have the more uber powerful ones around you could just make them less likely. I can understand some extent to videos like this. You don’t want broken characters (weak or overpowered), but I’m also not crazy about people thinking the competitive community should essentially be in charge. They’ll optimize the uniqueness or fun aspects out of things because they aren’t perfectly balanced.
Sakurai develops movesets based on representing the surface level of a character We can tell that he doesn't like changing his characters, Ryu is inspired in SF4 when we already have a much stronger, more enjoyable to play Ryu in SF6, even tho he now has a mechanic, he still a simple character Link in Breath of the wild and Tears of the Kingdom has a huge moveset, so many options to pick from since those games are so different from past ones, but he just got a remote bomb (that is fun to use, don't get me wrong), a boring boomerang and a close range grab. And still, many characters that have some abilities so interesting to pull from are scrapped Sora is largely inspired of KH1 when KH2, 3D and KH3 have more interesting combat systems, moves, mechanics Pit just has one Uprising move with upperdash arm when that game has so many weapons and abilities is crazy. Sonic is just a ball when he has so many options, flashy moves for a flashy personality YL and TL are just Link but more nimble and more passive, respectively, instead of using different items from his games. MARIO HAS SO MANY TRANSFORMATIONS, MOVES, ABILITIES, AND HIS MOST RECENT ADITTION IS FLUDD WHICH CAME FROM A GAME THAT RELEASED OVER 20 YEARS AGO, LIKE WHY You get the idea
smash ultimate was released in 2018, street fighter 6 was released last year, downright impossible to base a character on a game that came out 5 years later than yours.
Wario. Just Wario. My god, I can't even think about playing Smash Bros. without getting irrationally angry about how awful his moveset is. It baffles me at how Sakurai butchered his character from a greedy-strongman treasure hunter to a nothing but a farting joke.
I know right, you would think that since Smash Bros is a platform fighting game, it make sense that Wario’s moveset should be inspired by the Wario Land series since they are platforming games after all, but for some reason they didn’t do that which is weird. Goes to show you that Wario Land will always be the black sheep of Nintendo platformers.
@@Luis-yh9xd Thankfully we have AntonBlast now. The fact that it managed to get onto the Switch is honestly a major fuck you to Nintendo and I’m glad that it’s gaining traction on the internet. ♥️💣💚
@@freshnewcungadero I always pictured Wario (gameplay wise) to be a slow and hefty, but heavy-hitting grappler character with moves that pack a serious punch and throws that are on par with Incineroar in terms or how deadly they can be. But no. He doesn’t have any of this. This fat fuck has some of the highest air speed and air acceleration in the game for some reason, has moves that don’t looks like “strongman” attacks at all (seriously, why is forward air a weak, stubby kick instead of a dummy-strong downward punch akin to Dr. Mario or Banjo’s fair), and throws that are laughably weak and have no utility whatsoever, despite his games being heavily centered around grabbing and throwing his enemies around. Wario’s smash design seems so poorly though-out. No only does be barely represent the Wario Land series at ALL, he barely even represents WarioWare all that well, either. He moves are literally designed to just be offshoots of Mario’s attacks in Smash, which is clever, don’t get me wrong (even if this design philosophy caused him to get what is quite possibly the worst down smash in the whole game) but they could’ve done more with him. He is missing so many of his most well-known abilities from his home games that would’ve translated easily in Smash. The Earthshake Punch, his helmet powerups, his plethora of body transformations, his Wario World throws, the SHAKE, etc. The only thing he has is the Shoulder Tackle as his dash attack, the wild swing-ding as his back throw, and his bike. Every else he has is completely made up for Smash.
@@dariuscox3576 Damn. You explained it better than I could. The only thing I will add is that his back throw is a laughably pathetic rendition of the Wild Swingding from WarioWorld, as you could move Wario around slightly as you swung the enemy you had grabbed. He would spin around like a top, with MULTIPLE spins. But in Smash, it’s one of the weakest back throws in the game, and his end lag often means your getting hit back anyways. Don’t get me started on his dash attack, as so many moronic Sakurai apologists seem to think that because he has his shoulder charge now, it automatically means both franchises are represented equally. BUT WARIO’S DASH ATTACK IN SMASH IS BARELY HOW IT FUNCTIONS IN EVERY OTHER GAME HES IN WHERE HE USES IT. Like, in WarioLand 4, you could jump and change how far you went while charging forward. In WarioLand: Shake it, you could cancel his regular Shoulder Bash into a ball roll down slopes, or even quickly body slide on the ground to sneak under ledges. BUT in Smash, all he can do is weakly slump forward with way too much end lag, and half the time IT DOESN’T EVEN KILL CONFIRM. Im sorry for ranting, because I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, but even thinking about how Smash Ultimate pointlessly butchered so many of my favorite characters enrages me even just thinking about it.
Donkey Kong being here is a really confusing pick to me, especially when taking into account your Remake It episode on him. You didn’t really change that much of his moveset there, as you mainly focusing on updating his current tools he’s always had, and you even moved some of his old moves around and added back in an older Smash original move he lost back into his moveset. That’s not a slight against that rework, I still quite like it and think it was a great concept for an update for him, I just feel your stance on him here kinda contradicts what you’ve made for him in the past. I definitely don’t think DK is as outdated as the rest of the other picks there.
I was thinking the same thing. It's okay if he's had a change of heart but I still wouldn't personally say DK is all that bad of characters when it comes to representing themselves. Yeah, DK's moves don't take from his games but I'm not really sure of what we're missing outside of a barrel move of some sort.
While Hero is possibly badly executed, I think hes one of the most fun characters to play on this list. Casually having a character thats so unpredictable is so fun, and he also doesnt bring down the game competitively because his best options are inconsistent, and therefore you dont really have to camp him out like with Little Mac. In fact he heavily encourages engagement since most of his options are slow and need time to be read. Obviously this isnt the best for the player but if they chose Hero they knew what they were getting intom.
I always think Steve is the worst until I remember, oh yeah, Sonic plays nothing like how Sonic would want to play a match. The only thing I can say about it that even comes close to the games is that it mimics boss fights in which Sonic has to wait for an opening and capitalize on it, and then go back to waiting and dodging. But we all know these bosses are the things Sonic fans don't look forward to in his games, we'd rather be fighting the second fight against Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2. I really hope they round him out next time.
It's funny cause that's not even a Sonic specific game plan. Plenty of platforming games have the "wait for the vulnerable spot, then attack" pattern in bossfights. Hell, ZELDA games were all about that in most of their 3D titles. If anything, some bosses in original Sonic games could be beaten incredibly fast if you were good enough. And you'd destroy them by literally overwhelming them with attacks while simultaneously avoiding whatever they threw at you.
I'm gonna be 100% real when I say this, I don't understand why people say DK needs to be updated outside of giving him his canon voice. The majority of what he does in Smash is pretty much on brand with what he does in the games with the only real differences being that he's a lot slower in Smash than canon and I don't think people are prepared for a fast DK. Also a lot of people want to give him a Barrel move... just play with Barrels on, that's literally the point of them.
Honestly I agree Dk just needs a huge animation overhaul and he’d be fine and even then for new moves just give him the barrel cannon and Sonic clap to replace his more off moves you don’t need to go too far in redesigning him.
@@Err0_Will The barrel's an important enough part of the character to warrant being both an item and an attack (which isn't unprecedented in Smash). This is made worse by the fact that Side Special feels like a filler move, and Up Special is a strange choice that would feel more appropriate being the barrel cannon. If you want an example of how barrels could be part of a DK moveset, I'd recommend checking out DK's Skylanders moveset. Outside of that, I agree that most of his moveset is appropriate.
@@Baconator2558it’s Like giving Mario a move where he takes out and kicks a koopa shell if that makes sense, it’s a pointless reference for the sake of reference
It’s crazy how it took Ganondorf until Ultimate to use his sword and even then those sword attacks are copypasted Ike and Cloud Smash Attacks, with the same Captain Falcon with Dark Flames Moveset.
@@quillion3rdoptionHe’s not a goddamn Captain Falcon ripoff, he has a character. He’s not gonna throw out random punches and kicks like he does in Smash
This isn't a new topic, but Mii Swordfighter definitely is up there in bad design. While Brawler and Gunner have tools and moves that all make sense for the archetype they're going for, Swordfighter has less than average range, aerials that looks more like poking than slashing (which isn't what a Swordfighter should be), and specials that cater to more zoning than swordfighting, as good as those moves may be. When Miis return for Smash 6, Swordfighter should at least get a sword arc FAir.
the worst part about him is how he's based off Link and not Marth who is the face of platform fighter swordfighters. Mii Swordfighter is just a worse version of young link and it's so sad because Swordfighter should be a spacer, not more aligned with being a zoner
Yeah, I too wish that Mii Swordfighter was based more off of Marth than Link, IMO. He could’ve had a Marth-like Fair, a Marth-like Up Air, a downward thrust for a down air that ACTUALLY SPIKES, make him a bit faster on the ground, give him Marth’s tipper mechanic, and even a Side Special that resembles more like Dancing Blade (replace that god-awful Airborne Assault with it.) Make him feel like a TRUE text-book definition of a mid-ranged swordfighter who plays patiently and precisely space his attacks, not this weird stubby-ranged, grab-confirming, projectile-spamming sword-zoner hybrid design they were going for. Mii Swordfighter should also be using his SWORD more for his specials, instead of having him throw random objects at his opponent that don’t actually involve his sword at all.
Man its bizarre to see so many people hate mii swordfighter for genuinely being a unique and interesting sword fighter and NOT another marth clone is everyone really so butthurt he doesint function like marth they are willing to neglect all the positives with them Like u guys gonna ignore the fact the swordfighter has a reflector projectile and arguably the best Ariel moves of any sword fighter Who cares if he doesn’t slash and instead jabs and their range actually outranks many other sword fighters like all the links byleth etc do we REALLY need another marth clone?
@@michaelbecket4901 I’m a Swordfighter main and I completely agree We don’t need another Marth clone that’s advertised as a character they are not, I’m perfectly happy maining Swordfighter as they are and it brings me unprecedented levels of joy unlike any other character If the developers were to go in that direction and just rework him into another stereotypical swordie, I might as well not fucking play
@@michaelbecket4901 To be clear, I don't hate the fighter. I love him just like all the other Miis (Shuriken > Gale imo). But he doesn't play like how he should considering the fact that he's portrayed as one of the quintessential examples of the architype. He's primarily a zoner, not a swordfighter. No one is mad at link's design because (besides having source material) he doesn't have the job of being an example swordfighter. Marth, before being in smash, could have also been a zoner in a parallel universe. But because of Mii Swordfighter's title and lack of source (meaning moves can be literally anything), they could have made him into a better answer to the question "What does a Swordfighter in a platform fighter look like?" Is he a fun character? Personally, Yes. Does he do the job he sets out to do? Objectively, No.
I don't think a character feeling old in design is a bad thing. They're simple and easy to understand, Ultimate's newcomers tend to be more complex and that isn't always a good thing. I feel like if they changed DK's moveset, without Sakurai we'd just get retro era moves.
I remember when Ultimate came out and I was hoping that Sonic would be one of the best characters to use... well, I guess that he is in an undesirable way. Even if he's not THE most uninspired character in the game, it really does feel like he got shafted in almost every way. Bland moveset, bland facial expressions, plain music track with no remixes, two stages with the second being discount Green Hill, and no new characters despite there being perfect echo potential with Shadow. Not trying to sound rude to Sakurai or anything, but it hurts seeing just how lacking he feels compared to all the love and detail pretty much every other third party got.
My principal issue with Hero is the lack of Language-neutral symbols for the Spell list. I speak a decent amount of Japanese, but I don't know any of the Japanese spell names from DQ so it's just as difficult.
Imagine this rework of Hero: - Instead of fixed spells on neutral and side B and a random selection of spells on down B, his side B contains projectile spells common to the Hero classes of his game series (Firebal/Firebane/Frizz/Frizzle, Zap/Thordain, etc) and maybe some debuffs like Sleep, his neutral B contains buffing moves like Oomph and Accelerate, and his Down B contains Heal/Midheal/Healmore, Ironize/Kaclang, some third spell defensive or reactive spell, and Hocus Pocus to maximize the randomness much like he already has currently. - Alternately, one menu for the Mage spells (Fire, ice, attack or defense up, sleep), one for Cleric spells (heal, speed buff, wind elemental attack, instant kill), one for the Hero spells (lightning attacks, Kaclang) and miscellaneous (Hocus Pocus) - Only Up B remains a fixed spell (Ruura/Return/Zoom) for recovery. - Thus, aside from his stage recovery, all of his moves require a little bit of menuing, with the more intricate or more powerful moves requiring you to dig deeper into the menu. - His swordplay game is made just decent enough to work without magic; Dragon Quest heroes tend to be fairly slow classes within their series, but also physical heavy hitters only _barely_ below the purely physical Warriors and Fighters (or Soldiers and Martial Artists? Inconsistent translations across decades).
I also think people who say Steve is comparable or equal to Brawl MK and Sm4sh Bayo are either out of their minds or intentionally exaggerating to push the Steve ban agenda. He’s nowhere near as oppressive as the latter two were.
I bet there will be at least 3 characters from Fighters Pass 2. After watching the video, I was right. You could've easily slotted Pythra in as well. Actually a lot of characters in Ultimate are designed really poorly, and frankly I don't have much hope for most of them improving in Smash 6
I don't agree with hero being on this list the way you talked about him usually the randomness is fine given fitting all of the spells in a readable menu at once would be impossible to do in terms of ui its the language barrier thats the real problem that still hasn't been fixed to this day
Lol agreed people complain about macs flaws but… theres far worse characters such as olimar incineroar kazuya all of which have very deep flaws and in incineroars donkey kong and kazuyas case dont have the ground game mac has to make up for their flaws but instead rely on simple gimmicks that get spammed to shit and back
@@SubspaceJigglypuff and people who are well balanced can be poorly designed such as DK olimar sephiroth etc your argument just comes from a place of someone who believes in tiers
So answer me what is fun about dealing with: -An overtuned ground game that forces camping on BOTH sides -Blatant perpetual comeback -Option dice rolling -Sword user #81,018,001 screaming at their opponent to have mobility -0-Deaths off of a tether grab as a result of a Down Air with a stupid convenient KB angle -Dhalsim without the extension hurtboxes and with good mobility -Somebody with 0-Deaths that as PatchyDogg experienced can get the opponent BANNED ONLINE, as well as move invincibility out the rear and generally OTT knowledge burden -Somebody who runs away for wins by timeouts ridiculously often while not having a hard time landing the first hit to begin with
@@MasterKnightDH congrats welcome to smash bros where characters are unique and have unique stats lol An overtuned gameplay mechanic is nothing special hes not even the first one to get it arguably captain falcon and pikachu were overtuned in smash 64 and fox in melee and meta knight in brawl and out of those only 1 (meta knight) was arguably considered genuinely broken And the whole camping excuse is pathetic when u have characters like sonic ness pikachu etc roam the games despite being perfectly balanced characters characters like ness default to PK fire anyways for easy combos and wins despite having a vast arsenal of unique and powerful moves mac having great ground game and poor air game hardly makes him unapproachable thus the excuse of just grab him and toss him off was invented even though decent mac players rarely fall for this Yes blatent perpetual comeback for a high risk high reward character who can die as easily as he kills u can literally say the same thing about cloud who unlike mac has much higher survival game thus would be even more broken since he has a move that instant kills at moderate % while having the ability to abuse and charge it at will lol😂🤣 And the rest of these is just excuses a him having good stats seriously hit and runs? U mean something like literally a little under HALF the roster can do? And unlike most of them mac can exactly run fast up platforms or stages with lots of jumping and also doesint have a single projectile to keep u at bay either get over it u guys just want an excuse to hate him
Sweet! I always love it when you tap into something different, and I'm happy to see you address some of the most poorly designed Moveset in Great Fray Smash Brothers Special, and you've already done several remake Videos fixing them like 1 Bad Execution (with Little Mac's upcoming Remake It Video, making him 2 of BE), all of Poorly Aged, half of Toxic Opponents, The Worst, and 1 Honorable Mention, with Samus actually being your very first RI Video (hard to believe it's already been almost 3 years since this series began, and that you already made 13, with 14 not to far ahead from now)! It is sad to see that several of Special's Fighters have ended up being either underpowered like Hero (I still HATE their English Spell names with a burning passion, like seriously, who the hell came up with these names when translating them? Did a 4-year-old come up with the garbage English ones when they were translating them from their original, vastly superior Japanese names, or something? But I seriously digress), Sephiroth, Lucario, and Little Mac, to missed opportunity ones like Samus Aran, Kirby, Ganondorf (or "Falcondorf" as you've called him, which is hilarious, and true (sadly)), and Donkey Kong, to extremely polarizing ones like Luigi, Min Min, Kazuya Mishima, and Steve, to the absolute worst of the worst being of course Sonic The Hedgehog, as well as others like Dr. Mario, Princess Zelda, Banjo & Kazooie, Robot, and Mr. Game & Watch, and it's even more of a shame that when COVID happened right at the very beginning of Fighter Pass 2 the developers had even less to fix many of these issues... Hopefully whenever Smash 6 comes, they'll FINALLY take into account, and update several of these Movesets that have needed fixing BADLY. I agree with all 18 Fighters mentioned in the Video, and I think a couple more characters to include in HM would be the Mother boys, Ness, and Lucas as they've become infamous for spamming their PK Fires. I'd also pick Inkling for BE due to them using their limbs to attack, and even grab opponents when they could never do that in Splatoon, Link for PA since hardly any Breath Of The Wild source material was used like not using Parasail from BOTW as his new Up Special, and just keeps his terrible spin sword attack, Koopa for PA since several of his unique attacks like his old Back Aerial, and Front Smash replaced with generic kicks, Wario for PA since several of his Moves feel like a rip-off of Mario's Moveset, and not the greddy anti-hero we all know, and love, Mario for PA as while nowhere near as poorly aged as other veterans, I do still feel like he's missing key features from his series, at the very least include his iconic Hip Drop that he's had since his 3D inception for his new Down Aerial, Princess Daisy for PA since she's mostly just a clone of Peach with very small differences, and not her own unique Moveset, Gaogaen for using mostly generic wrestling abilities, and several of them feeling like direct copies of King K. Roll, and I believe they could've used more scratches for their attacks since they're a feline Pokemon, and many others, but I don't wanna be here all day. XD Anyway, another great Video once again, Del! I always enjoy it when you do different things every now, and then! And yeah, I totally be down with you doing a follow-up video talking about Special's best designed characters, I mean after all it only makes sense (also hope that the X Design Tier List Video is finally coming at some point as it's been over a year since the Deluxe Video)! Look forward to the next RI Video, and future Videos from you!
Honestly speaking, I seriously find Joker qualifying as toxic as well. He feels like he embodies Luigi's brand of toxicity, just with the guns, curses, and Arsene instead of the grab game. At least for Fighter's Pass 1, it almost felt like there was a bit of bias leaking into his design compared to anyone else in the pass. That said, I can admit that Fighter's Pass 2 put him to shame with Kazuya getting everything and more in his moveset and Steve having the devs alter the game's stage code to accommodate the most unfair mechanic in Smash history, which can even be abused to cancel knockback. Also, Piranha Plant has to be the record setter for its novelty wearing off. It stopped feeling fun to fight against or as it after a few months (at most a year if I'm being as generous as possible). If anything, its inclusion should render "Hat Goomba" allegations against Bandana Waddle Dee null & void.
I... disagree. joker is not similar to luigi at all. Sure arsene is annoying and he's a bit overtuned, but its not bad design, hes just a good character.
All the Marth clones to me highlight how, for the most part, Fire Emblem characters have been designed in ways that don't do their games any justice and are just plain lazy, and I think it's embarrassing how similar they all are
I really don't think Samus should be on this list. Yes, a lot of main characters from big franchises like Samus, Link, Mario, ... have had a lot of move set variations over the years, to the point of changing drastically in the case of Link, but that doesn't mean that the Smash move set is unfaithful or badly designed. Samus's move set still perfectly captures the core tried and true moves she is known for, from the missiles, to the morpho ball and bombs, to the charge shot, to the plasma whip, all of the most iconic moves the character still uses in Dread and prime 4 are in Smash. I'd also argue the same thing for Link, even if breath of the wild Link has a different move set, the fact that the bombs, bow and arrows, spin attack, boomrang and bombs has still followed Link for 30 years before breath of the wild got rid of the last two really speak to how iconic and true to Link's 38 years of history his smash move set still is. And as move sets in a platform fighters, they are still versatile, well working and strongly defined move sets, and create relatively healthy and popular characters, which is all we should know to see they are well above average when it comes to character design. I think the complaint is more justified for DK and Kirby, as their specials severely lack identity and not having barrels for DK feels like a criminal omission as it's almost synonymous with the franchise, it's like having link without a master sword or mario without fire balls. Honestly it's really all he needs, as the Diddy kong already references the rest of the iconic parts of the franchise quite well, but DK could definitely get his up b changed to a barrel throw on the ground and a barrel launch in the air, and getting rid of his stupid headbutt that references nothing and is very lame. Kirby fairs a bit better, at least his moveset is still moves that are staples of the Kirby franchise, but they are very boring and it doesn't help that his sword or hammer have already been developed much better in Dedede and Meta knight's move sets. Rock while it's iconic also really doesn't deserve to take a special move slot when it's really a glorified down air.
I know he has fans outside of the competitive scene, but Kazuya needs to go when Smash 6 rolls around. He feels like the epitome of 'the fighting game guy' even more than Ryu does, and he just isn't fun to watch in competitive matches since he's so oppressive but also so predictable.
For as much fun I've had with the series since 64, the one thing I really hate is the fact that many characters' movesets are still based on the ones they had since 64 or melee, they were never reworked. It's honestly a shame.
For Banjo-Kazooie, they are a bit of a mixed bag, and this is coming from someone who requested them and play as them. There are some moves that make sense, and others that don't. For instance, why isn't the Pack Whack Banjo's Down Smash? The Ratatat Rap could've worked as both a F-Air and B-Air. The Beak Bomb could've been an excellent Side B, with WonderWing as a Down B counter, as least that how I would envision them.
Wait a minute Banjo with a Down B Counter that activates the Wonderwing? I’m just curious because Down B Counters have become lazy ways of designing characters heck not even Sora could escape the Down B Counter curse.
I wish they'd re-add the moveset options from Smash 4, but re-work it so it can be used in competitive. The issue is that Sakurai stated once a character is in a Smash game, their movesets can't be reworked in any major way. It's why Ganondorf gets about one change to his moveset per game. It's also why Sonic has mostly just cloned moves and spin dash, despite having 2 fighting games to work off of. I'd honestly re-work the whole system so it's more like 4, but the alt moves aren't something you have to unlock or banned from competitive. I'd also rework some older/rushed Smash characters from the ground up (Sonic, Samus, Ganondorf, Kirby ect...). Finally, add their old moves from Smash 1-U as alts so if you don't like a newer move, you can always swap back. That way they retain their classic movesets without holding them back at the same time.
I don't hate it, but also you have to be comically careful with how you implement that. The only reason people don't hate the Miis more than they already do is because most of them aren't great. Brawler is the only one I ever see competitively. But yeah, atleast regaining older moves could be interesting.
Where's Olimar, broski? All this blud does his run away and throw pikmin, fishing for purples to win games with no one wanting to play as or against him, completely unfaithful to his portrayal in the Pikmin franchise. And then spams smash attacks because of course he can. And why does a feeble and tiny character like Olimar get a frame 2 super armor move he can spam to get out of a jam? Just why is that a thing. And about Left Splits Kick-- The zoners that should be afraid of this move usually have control over their projectiles or can easily dodge the reflected projectiles since it's a committal, grounded reflector on a non-special move. That kind of design does not work for Ness and Lucas for example, where they don't have time to pull it off and get rewarded for as they have magnets instead. And Min Min's Up Smash being a reflector isn't so bad when you consider the fact that it's on her main out of shield option and it's got similar problems to Left Splits Kick and the Baseball Bat swings in that they are committal (unless you're Lucas but even he doesn't use it very often.), grounded reflector moves not put onto special moves, which execute the reflector concept better since they don't have to rely on being grounded and are still fair while being commonly used from time to time. With the spacies having the best execution for them unlike Min Min, Kazuya, and the PK kids. That of course doesn't mean the characters who have them aren't justifed of your placements. Just addressing a common complaint about Min Min's Up Smash and Kazuya's Left Splits Kick.
“completely unfaithful to his portrayal in the Pikmin franchise” Dude, have you EVER played a Pikmin game? Olimar has to run and throw Pikmin at opponents because he can’t fight them himself, exactly like what he does in his home series. I don’t blame for you not liking how he plays but calling his moveset unfaithful because of that is just stupid.
@@Valentinesdayghost Don't think that's the part thats unfaithful. Pikmin is an RTS. Pikmin are a resource first, to be maintained as you fight against the sun slowly fading out of sight. (I think that's the scenario, haven't played Pikmin 2 in a minute.) Each Pikmin has it's own use, needed in different scenarios to safely get through the day. Now, in smash. You throw them with reckless abandon, and you mostly want purples. Sure, yellow range is pretty good and blue throws just kinda kill, but most of the game plan is running in circles trying to fish for the right little fella for the job (almost always purple). Frankly, I don't think Olimar should have ever been in Smash to being with, the concept itself was fairly flawed from the start. The moveset is unfaithful because there was effectively no way to add Olimar in a way that's both fun to play/fight and really faithful to the game. Obviously this is a problem other fighters might have as well, but I don't feel it in other characters nearly as much as I see it in Olimar.
@@sicklysweetdenouement “Throw them with reckless abandon and run in circles” No, not really. I don’t know if maybe this is just how I play Olimar but I like to scroll through my Pikmin as they come and use the whistle to cycle through what I feel is the best option in my situation. For example: I’m at high percent against an opponent who I could easily die to? Use White to rack up the most damage from afar so it becomes harder for my opponent to confidently approach without fear of taking a big hit. I’m at mid-range and my opponent could die to my next hit? Wait for an opening and use Blue to YEET them into the shadow realm. I want to rack up damage at the start of the match? Toss my Blue Pikmin offstage and go to town on my opponent with Red and Yellow. My opponent’s at ledge/offstage and I want to threaten a kill? Grab Purple or Red and BATTER UP! Not to mention the other uses Pikmin have outside of offense, such as being able to tank a strong projectile due to higher health (Purple) or being immune to the properties of the projectile (Yellow vs Samus Charge Shot, Blue vs Corrin Dragon Fang Shot, etc.). About Pikmin being a resource, I do think it’s a bit hard to pressure Olimar into not pulling abundant amounts of Pikmin, but they can work against him sometimes. (The extended hitbox caused by an attack hitting a Pikmin, then Olimar falling into the hitbox, has screwed me over a couple times lol) I completely understand why one could see Olimar’s moveset as unfaithful because I don’t imagine it to be easy to incorporate the mechanics of an open RTS puzzle game like Pikmin into a platform fighter like Smash. I think Olimar’s moveset is perfectly faithful because it encapsulates the core mechanics of the most vital tools in his home series, even if it isn’t exactly a one-to-one transfer. (Sorry if I came off as defensive or accusing at one point during this little rant. If you couldn’t tell already, I fucking love Oli and I don’t entirely understand why a lot of people so passionately hate him. Regardless, best wishes and I hope you didn’t take anything too personally.)
I'd argue with Yoshi being poorly aged as someone who mained him in every game. In his home games, his tongue is one of his most unique gameplay aspects where there are a number of things you can do with it (make and collect eggs, hold in and move around, reach certain platforms, eat certain projectiles) but in Smash it's his most umderbaked feature. If they gave more options with Egg Lay and maybe even a zair, it'd capture his games a lot better.
I don't think he's poorly aged per say, I think most of his kit works and he's clearly meant as a simpler character, but the lack of a zair and the fact he can't eat projectiles/items with neutral B are both really glaring and he should definitely get both. Other than that, not sure how you could include stuff like egg collecting without making it overtly complicated for a character like him. I feel him laying his opponent as a egg for Neutral B and throwing eggs in up B covers those bases well enough. Something I'm surprised you didn't mention tho is his Side B. No character should have a filler move that's completely useless like that, it's just a dead button rn.
not that i don't think sonic couldn't get some updates. but it gets pretty frustrating always hearing the "multiple moves as a ball" criticism. there are only about 6 moves including throws that feature him attacking via his spinball form. Nair, Usmash, N special, S special, D special, and D throw. a vast majority of his attacks are punches, kicks, or some other method of attacking. plus his spinball is his primary way of attacking throughout most of the games. complaining that Sonic has multiple moves attacking as a ball is like complaining that a character like Link has multiple moves attacking with a sword. of course he shouldn't have spindash take up two move slots, but to conflate that to "too many ball moves in general" is frustrating.
Doesn’t really change anything. Also note that 2 of his specials are the exact same move literally copied and pasted. Sonic’s used so many abilities over his 30+ years of being a gaming icon yet nothing from his modern games are used Those were only really his primary ways of attacking in his classic games
@@Right_Bumperthe problem with Sonics abilities is that they are not consistent. He constantly changes his moveset. His most consistent moves are Spin Dash, the Homing Attack and the Boost, 2 of which are in his Smash moveset. How much of Sonic Frontiers abbilities will come back, so you can put into Smash without it becoming outdated the next game. Mario has the problem of outdated moves with Fludd and Cape, but that won't be fixed by adding Cappy, since I am pretty sure Cappy won't return in the next 3d Mario.
I personally don’t think Little Mac is that bad. Sure, it’s a mashup of extremes and they could definitely stand to use Star Punch instead of KO. But I think the design lines up with his home series. He’s all about fancy footwork, waiting for an opening, then hitting as fast and hard as possible against physically superior opponents. His aerial mobility and attack power can be buffed a little if absolutely necessary. But otherwise? I say he’s perfectly fine. But if there’s anyone who should have been in this video, it should be Dark Pit and Dark Samus. Just because they’re doppelgängers in concept, doesn’t give the devs an excuse to just make them echo fighters when they have whole arsenals to work with and set them apart from their original rivals. Pittoo had so many weapons to use for completely different side and down specials thanks to Uprising. And has Dark Samus even used missiles or bombs like the real Samus? Phazon gave the Metroid Prime so much potential to work with, and the devs just through it all down the toilet.
yeah, big agree with LG555 on that. The whole argument against Echoes has always been incredibly dumb. They are quite literally designed to be roster filler, or flavor, or whatever. If Dark Pit vanished, it's not like we would get another full fighter in his place. That being said, I think their choice of Echo was questionable there, Dixie Kong would have been 10 times cooler.
Little Mac & Ganon could have been "balanced" maybe if items were allowed in stages. Items could be pretty cool and a way to reduce ledge camping, but you need to see the ghost of an item before it spawns, super random items like trophies & pokey balls should show which trophy/pokeball will appear before hand, the items should be nerfed (no Maximum tomato that instantly restores all health or instant kill bombs). Little Mac & Ganondorf could use the items by pushing them with their moves, and to improve their mobility (jet pack, umbrella, ballons, screwattack, place platforms like minecraft).
@@aoeu256 It would help little mac, but Ganon wouldn't get nearly as much benefit. The important thing to remember about items is that the faster characters have an easier time getting to them. I don't think Ganon can grab items mid-wizkick, so he and other characters that could potentially use items to shore up weaknesses (DeDeDe, Ridley, DK, hell even Sephiroth) are also the characters that get to use them the least. So now this mechanic that would supposedly help slower characters, instead only consistently helps faster ones. It's just by random chance that a slower character would get the chance to use it. (Now that I type it out, this sounds eerily familiar to TF2 Random Crits. Huh.)
While Hero isn't the most well designed character competitively. From my personal experience with my group of friends, he's very well designed on the Fun side of things.
Quick opinions: -Everyone in the bad execution section is just a numbers problem and has nothing to do with actual design, just tunning, it may also apply to Dr. Mario, not completely sure wich posture to take. -Poorly aged is not an actual problem, as much as I understand why people have a problem with the situation. -Banjo is pefectly fine, is just people´s problem is that they had shapeless expectations it didn´t fulfill. -No problem with the take about Zelda, it just looks weird in the final graphic out of context.
Honestly, I really like how Sephiroth is designed. He still has that DLC character comeback mechanic with the wing, but it feels like devs took actual care to make sure he isn't overpowered. I like that him being a glass cannon with awkward hitboxes on his moves forces you to play patiently. Again, it feels like very deliberate choices factored into his design, that I don't think I could justify calling him one of Ultimate's worst designed characters.
All they have to do to fix Ganon’s design is to make black shadow an echo of falcon so he can inherit the current moveset with tweaks. And then for Ganon himself, using attacks/techniques from his boss fights and incorporating that in his moveset. (Floating, weaponry, reflecting/casting projectiles.)
sephiroth sure, but heros language barrier is a big deal. How can you fight him if you cant read his menu? I'd make it so the spells are colour coded and have some kind of icon next to it so everybody can understand. Other than that though? Yeah he's pretty fun.
@@AndreBabani Honestly, color coding would help everybody, even if you can read the menus. Having an extra signal to my brain screaming "Don't hit that button, thats Kamikaze!" would be rather helpful in not accidentally exploding.
As a Ridley main, I feel like he deserved better. Either make him heavier, switch his down B to something practical, or decrease the delay and end lag on his side B. And the majority of the DLC’s only made him less viable. I hope they do him justice next game.
I honestly rather think of the characters representing themselves at foremost then their source material representation next as higher priority than competitive viability. I'm one of those people that makes me feel like Sephiroth is an actual threat on the battlefield for how well he portrays his dread when fighting him in the remakes or the KH2 superboss (He's honestly more of a pushover in the original game, but presence makes up for that) and I think Hero's generic normals are ironically fitting considering he's the blank slate protagonist you're to project into. King K. Rool despite being really low tier according to the wiki is honestly the peak culmination of his ventures and even the generic animal sounds can't change that. And even Steve's game plan of set up focus and traps I do think genuinely make him a near-perfect representation of what Minecraft embodies. You're SUPPOSED to make plans for what the match or night entails and I think that aspect, despite being a bane, is honestly vital to Steve's feel in the game. And imma be real Steve's Kirby hat is easily the best one, I think some of us can agree there. Hell I'll even live and die on the hill that Jigglypuff, despite people wanting her out, is honestly the best joke character. Sure her time in the spotlight in the anime may be gone, but she's still honestly hilarious for how more random of a character choice she was and that cute randomness combined with being a Pokemon makes her come off as a funny thrown in bonus in the roster rather than a nuisance. That said I don't think all characters are perfect though. My weakest designed character is Olimar and I never felt like playing him mainly due to lacking voice clips (Making him feel not like a beloved leader at a cost) for 3 games in a row and the Pikmin cap still remains at 3 when Brawl had 5, Sonic I no doubt agree has got to get an overhauled moveset to represent his many powers like the projectile kicks from Frontiers (Though keep the down-B as a Spin Dash since it makes sense), and Daisy really needs a new kit to get out of Echo status since while it makes sense, she's got more to her kit than just Peach's moves; we can pull stuff out of Wonder and the sports games mainly to distinguish them. All right, that's my takeaway from this video. I do get the opinion of competitive viability, but I don't prioritize that honestly.
If it were up to me to redesign Min Min (as someone who plays both games), I'd give her arms health to discourage spam (like belly armor, except with much less total health that regenerates over time), nerf their BASE damage/knockback (as well as give them damage falloff for long-range hits), and change down-B to a move that charges the arms instead of switching between them. The real challenge of fighting in the original game is keeping your arms charged to boost their damage and elemental effects, and getting into positions that are safe enough that you can charge your arms and dodge punches but still close enough that you can land a hit. A good design for Min Min should play more like a boxer character and less like a zoner. You could still keep in the swapping arms mechanic if you really want, but I would map it to shield-B instead of down-B (If you want to be really unique, make it depend on which way she's facing to switch either of her arms), or I'd make it a special input at the very start of a stock.
Imo Maypul in Rivals of Aether is exactly what Sonic should be. Fast, will combo you back and forth, and generally built around chasing opponents down.
Honestly surprised Ness isn’t on this list. Given that about 3 of his moves are things that he actually does in his home series, combined with the fact that his moveset ends up being extremely Campy and Spammy *cough cough* PK Fire. I’d understand if he was supposed to represent his entire Earthbound party, but the fact that his party members now actively appear and contribute in his final smash it makes no sense that Ness is the one who performs the special moves, despite not doing most of them in Earthbound. Given that in modern smash we have quite a few more characters who represent RPG Magic Users (Hero, Robin, etc) it feels like an ample opportunity to edit Ness’ Moveset to better fit his RPG Archetype, as a more Tanky Support characters who’s better adept in inflicting Status Conditions and setting up Healing and Shields.
I have to disagree heavily on the characters whose movesets don't reflect the way the character has aged. I understand the sentiment that fans of the games want to play a character who reflects their more modern concepts, but people who play fighting games from sequel to sequel usually don't like it when their character gets completely changed between releases. If the moveset works, then there's no reason to change it simply because the character in the games has gone a different direction. If something about the character doesn't work it could be updated but I feel like players would rather the move get buffed to be useable instead of replaced.
I would probably add Shiek. A combo charakter who can`t make combos because of ingame mechanics or gimmicks of his opponents. Like Rage don`t help her, the oppenent can be to heavy, can be to floaty, can have an instant super armor double jump >.> . And everytime she trade its just a loss for the Shiek Player. Yeah I know a combo charakter is hard to balance and there are some incredible Shiek Players. But still she feels kinda akward for me.
If Mac is known for two things, it’s punching and dodging, so I think if his ground attacks were toned down a touch, he should have a really good airdodge.
It's a fun hypothetical to imagine what moves legacy Smash characters would have if they had debuted in ultimate. Diddy gets his peanut guns and his jetpack from DK64; Where's DKs Coconut Gun, Nintendo?
I bet Sonic is barely going to change in Smash 6, mainly due to the fact that mods and fangames (examples include Project + and SSF2) are the ones reworking Sonic's moveset to be more healthy for the game. Considering Nintendo's despise for mods, they will probably (if they haven't already) shy away from the things that could make him a much more welcoming character to the cast.
![Blox Fruits Dragon Rework Update [Full Stream]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EqDAp8udhm0/mqdefault.jpg)
Video sources, since there wasn't enough space for them in the description:
The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom - Final Boss Fight (Boss Fight Database): ruclips.net/video/wMm8UEF3gR4/видео.html
Metroid Dread - Any% Unrestricted Single File Speedrun (Arkandy): ruclips.net/video/qovuoh6wfDo/видео.html
Sonic Battle - Sonic Gameplay (Mega Blue): ruclips.net/video/9xNn309ejhk/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. (64) - Foca (Link) vs. Killer (Kirby) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/S1fmoxm5u-4/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. (64) - Mrsir (Samus) vs. PYT (Captain Falcon) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/p6tBO9VZ44M/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. (64) - SuPeRbOoMfAn (Mario) vs. Tacos (Donkey Kong) (VGBootCamp) ruclips.net/video/tZqldZJ39ZY/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U - Little Mac Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/gmtrmAvL5aw/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Anathema (R.O.B.) vs. Jahzz0 (Ken) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/ybN3vBW8rEo/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Announcement Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/w3Gt42kVgCw/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Challenger Approaching Intro Video (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/3YmIl3jA758/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Chase (Palutena) vs. Ven (Zelda) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/tTERjd9-O8M/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - ChunkyKong (Donkey Kong) vs. Doostop (Zero Suit Samus) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/na4MN3NdBk8/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Donkey Kong Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/K7IsUGeFXP0/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Doramigi (Min Min) vs. Kome (Shulk) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/rdNV-W5Xi00/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Frosty (Wolf) vs. Rickles (Ganondorf) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/4DStMbTSeBc/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Ganondorf Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/Q7pzoLQlrsM/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Goblin (Roy) vs. BeastModePaul (Hero) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/9q-YlVRLGwY/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Guilheww (Kirby) vs. Sparg0 (Cloud) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/61BElsLUV4U/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Hero Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/pupll3ON-WA/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Hurt (Snake) vs. Tea (Kazuya) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/d6PIADVwMT0/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Jagaimo (Palutena) vs. Gachipi (Lucario) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/wifYVDEp-ts/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Jakal (Wolf) vs. Syrup (Steve) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/kZTyzPE0wT0/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Jake (Steve) vs. Justinbyleth (Byleth) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/fWcqrxw1F54/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - JeJaJeJa (Kirby) vs. Tilde (Falco) (Collision Gaming Series): ruclips.net/video/7lDcbQTQEY4/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Kazuya Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/KctzAagM0H8/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Ken (Sephiroth) vs. Dabuz (Rosalina) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/7xNbajCW3jM/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Ken (Sonic) vs. Glutonny (Wario) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/9Wk63wiTElg/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Lucario Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/7gfpUgrLEwo/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Luigi Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/LlNXKM3sHWU/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Luigi Instakill Combos (Smash Box): ruclips.net/video/e0SHYSdEHKs/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Maister (Mr. Game & Watch) vs. Mr. R (Chrom) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/DjNb8jsJB9Q/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Min Min Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/dKR_w6C5A5k/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - MKLeo (Joker) vs. Sonix (Sonic) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/_PVW4fTjSRY/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - “More Fighters” Trailer (via GameSpot Trailers): ruclips.net/video/cjdfqXIM-Ko/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - PKChris (Ness) vs. Peanut (Little Mac) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/uR9e4cRANMA/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - QuiK (Samus) vs. Edwin (Mega Man) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/TpMNKrB5YQU/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Raru (Luigi) vs. Snow (Pyra/Mythra) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/yUpup-cti74/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Riddles (Kazuya) vs. Omega (Joker) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/VZMDKk-pjr8/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sakurai Presents Hero (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/ciLEX04BVFM/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sakurai Presents Kazuya (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/iMy8Ah4eQ8g/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sakurai Presents Steve (Nintendo of America): ruclips.net/video/_Sp5o1JJdDk/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Samus Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/I9tcvSeemVo/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sephiroth Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/JPxcE1dMqL8/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Shuton (Pyra/Mythra) vs. Tarakotori (Little Mac) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/H7LDQSDQV3w/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sonic Mini-Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/138MW7zOw0M/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sonix (Sonic) vs. Shadic (Corrin) (Beyond the Summit - Smash): ruclips.net/video/y-QhvKLHzj4/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sora Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/82Q2XTJ8jWk/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Sparg0 (Cloud) vs. Acola (Steve) (Beyond the Summit - Smash): ruclips.net/video/U9l0iKpZvEM/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Steve Reveal Trailer (Smash Bros. Official Channel): ruclips.net/video/90Jve_qWnpc/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Takera (Ken) vs. ProtoBanham (Min Min) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/lnEiftbBuZQ/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Tweek (Sephiroth) vs. Ling (Peach) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/tWeT8Kx6B_k/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Wildz (Kazuya) vs. Wrath (Sonic) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/z2nTz6niPak/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Yoshidora (Yoshi) vs. Toriguri (Banjo & Kazooie) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/42FoeXiXFqE/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Zomba (R.O.B.) vs. Gachipi (Lucario) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/Iel1lHl9lU8/видео.html
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Zomba (R.O.B.) vs. JaZaR (Dr. Mario) (VGBootCamp): ruclips.net/video/wjRbOQS1NWM/видео.html
Sorry buddy, but I already subscribed since a long time ago. I'll leave a like and a comment though :)
I honestly love playing as MinMin in smash and love Dragon Quest hero
Awesome job crediting everyone!
Pac-Man has the worst representation in music.
Ganondorf. He doesn’t represent himself, he represent Captain Falcon.
If only Sakurai heard of the character Black Shadow from the F-Zero series, I’m pretty sure he knows of Blood Falcon since he has been an alt for Falcon since 64 and in the story mode GX Black Shadow is catches Captain Falcon and creates Blood Falcon with cloning device so Blood and Black Shadow have a character relation too.
@@squallleonhart9387 From the few F-Zero I heard from, they want Black Falcon to be his own character while Blood Falcon should have SmashDorf's moveset.
Yup, Falcon. A character whose moveset was already made up to begin with. Ganondorf's sword isn't even something he uses from Ocarina, it was from a trailer from a game that never came out.
@@castform7 If I had a nickel for every Smash character with a moveset that is made up, I would have 4 nickels, 7 if you count the Miis seperetly. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird it happened twice. Should have only happened 3 times, 6 times if you count the Miis seperetly.
Want the Trident, gimme the Trident
It would be even more depressing if the next Smash game happens and Sonic still has his same moveset. Like, he literally had a mainline title where he had different offensive moves.
He could also be gone. And I would welcome that, solely because while Sonic is iconic, he is iconic because he is the iconic annoying character, Smash’s stances on using characters mean that he will have the same problems if not worse if he is in Smash 6, and I imagine that Smash 5 is so ambitious that if a Smash 6 appears they really will work with characters that originate from Nintendo games.
They won’t change him, doesn’t matter how many new Sonic games come out
@@iantaakalla8180 Not likely. Sonic and Mario's rivalry is too significant. Would the fans really want a Nintendo fighting game where they couldn't duke it out?
Plus, lots of iconic characters aren't really Nintendo's; they're third-party, like Pac Man and Simon. Should we remove them too, by that logic? I don't want them getting rid of my precious Mega Man, personally.
I'd argue that Frontiers moveset just isnt well known enough. Frontiers got beat out in sales by all of the good 3D sonic games (except Shadow the Hedgehog). It was a good game, for sure, but I don't think anything would be as iconic as... a 6th spindash.
In general, they don't often do moveset changes anyhow. The only two I can think of is Ganon gaining a sword to distinguish him from Falcon, and Link getting remote bombs (Presumably because of Young Link returning, but also BotW sold a bajillion copies)
@@iantaakalla8180
Smash players do not play other video games. Here's an example.
I’m confused at what Sephiroth fans want. He’s a decent mid tier. He could be better, but that applies to most of the roster. He has weaknesses, but that’s because he has clear strengths.
It’s not like Little Mac where the character concept is broken. It’s just that Sephiroth did not end up a broken top tier like a lot of people seemed to have wanted him to be.
Maybe just making him more consistent with certain things, like the location of the sweet spot on his sword and the percentage when One Wing activates? The video did specifically mention those inconsistencies as annoyances.
It’s mostly cause Cloud is such a solid character that Sephiroth feels more uneven in comparison
It also doesn’t feel too great when you’re between 2 characters that weren’t balanced all that well compared to everyone else
I guess Sephiroth has issues that are similar to those of most characters that are initially bosses.
Personally, I think if we put that aside, Sephiroth is well made, but my knowledge of FF is pretty much limited to Advent Children so my opinion may not count.
Sephiroth's combo game doesn't exist
Sonic feels like a mii brawler with fucky stats and moves, not a massive ip fighter. Animations are worse than stiff and it’s just captain falcon & falco movesets copy and pasted
his moveset feels like nintendo's final kick to the nuts to sega over the console war.
@@jaco8822 i honestly still think they're bitter about the "nintendon't" thing
I always thought mac was a better mii brawler lol
@@michaelbecket4901 mac is somewhat well designed and on top of that has great animation
@@stanley8006 i think hes perfectly designed honestly people react so negatively to the lack of air mobility but honestly his isint even the worst lol many other fighters such as kazuya and incineroar have objectively worse recoveries that are far more predictable ESPECIALLY as a mac main when u can easily just counter their recoveries when they try to get back on stage people gotta stop acting like 99% of the games air based when most characters cant even work their best in air either
I miss when Luigi was funny annoying instead of annoying annoying
yeah he's great in melee, bad in 64 (but being bad in 64 isn't as bad a deal as other smash games), none existant in brawl, great in 4 but his down b offstage is cancer and aids in ultimate. He deserves better then being a lame bs char.
@@nascour5991 its pretty sad how so many Brawl characters basically don't exist just from how fucked they are against Icies and MK
they shoulda kept his recovery potential for his luigi cyclone cause that hurt him significantly
@@keksidy As a Luigi main I sadly agree. He is a one sided character like sonic. He is fun to play as but not at all to play against. Especially when your stock spontaneous combusts because you get grabbed a zero.
Luigi is still really funny
He had more options to gimp and cheese you in smash 4 than he does in this game
He’s more one dimensional than before but he’s still really fun to watch
Olimar coming from a strategy game about careful positioning and time management and that translating to a floaty character that runs away while spamming projectiles has to be among the worst designs in any game ever.
I'm super surprised Olimar slithered away from a video like this. He seems like a prime candidate.
Why would want Olimar, already a very slow, turtly character, to be even slower?
@@PopcornBunni I miss having 6 Pikmin out at a time and I would sacrifice 8 Player Smash for it, does anybody even still care about it or have that many friends to play with? Imagine the cost of getting a specific controller for some who have a preference.
unfortuantely most zoners in ult far into the lame or badly designed side, except megaman and pacman (capcom you ain't slick lmao)
@@nascour5991 I kinda wish Young Link's Fire Arrow that actually sets up follow ups would be more common among projectile users (conceding that Fire Arrow spam needs to be nerfed tho).
5:44 Mario & Luigi vs Sephiroth
Nice reference
Noticed that too
1:32 I'd like to add that mac's combo game over the past few years has developed to the point where aerials, specifically up air, have become critical options in his kill confirm flowchart.
Tarakatori won a huge local in japan a few months ago (a weekly, but with multiple top 20 players) using exclusively little mac; he beat shuton's aegis in winners' finals while crucially utilising up air extensions to confirm kills off stray tilts. not to mention he beat the world #2 minmin player in the same top 8 and edgeguarded them with a fair to win the set.
True to the character.
I’m actually surprised Olimar wasn’t brought up, as I hear people complaining about him a lot.
I just want his up-air back that was a multi-hit with an elemental effect. The new single-hit is lame.
Yeah, Smash Olimar should have been brought up for not having his Pikmin's maturity stages matter. He fits right in for all 3 categories as well:
-Bad execution - overencouraged to camp
-Poorly aged - more like was a lich before even being added in Brawl, maturity stages doing nothing is incredibly stupid
-Toxic opponent - S I D E B S P A M
@@MasterKnightDHExactly Bro I hate fighting
him for those reasons specially side B
@@MasterKnightDH First point- What do you expect? His whole moveset in pikmin is punch and throw pikmin. Second- that is true, maturity stages should affect pikmin stats and not only be an aesthetic change; but that's just a minor dud and not an actual horrible problem that ruins the whole character. Third point- grow up, every character has at least one annoying spammable attack like Inkling's Splat Roller or Ness' PK Fire...
I feel like the only things that would help Olimar would be the maturation actually affecting pikmin stats, making blue pikmin deal water damage and a hud indicator for the pikmin order rather than a stupid triangle above the currently selected pikmin
Olimar is good as it is, even if most people get salty, because people complaining about him are just salty casuals that can't deal with projectiles. Like what do they expect? Making him an even slower and lumbering character that can't get his ass out of the ground? He'll go straight into D Tier if we take in mind how horrible are the characters with low agility like Ganondorf, Little Mac, King Dedede, Doctor Mario, Ivysaur and Donkey Kong.
Yeah, IF Sonic gets into the next Smash game, his moveset needs to be reworked
Here's hoping SEGA gives Nintendo permission to put him in
I wouldn’t be surprised if them giving Shadow new moves in Shadow Generations was so he could be playable in Smash.
don't get your hopes up
@@brandonwilliams6119 Assuming that design document was for Smash 6, development began in April 2022. So Shadow Generations might be too late to be referenced in Smash 6 in any meaningful capacity gameplay-wise unless they wait until DLC.
are you seriously considering a world where they wouldn't. they would never not give them permission in an universe.
@@nascour5991 lol😅
I DEFINTELY disagree on Seph... he's mostly VERY well designed, apart from his weight and random inconsistencies with certain moves. He is SOOOO much fun to play!
I definitely agree, and I don't even play Sephiroth. I just love how unique he is.
No silly, competitive viability is all that actually matters. Not how fun it is to play with friends!
Yah, Sephiroth i disagreed with as well. Like, seriously? His frame dats isn’t even THAT BAD, it’s actually pretty good on some moves considering how big they are.
While I agree with most of these, I would actually disagree with Hero. Sure, he's not as representative of the Dragon Quest games like you said, but something about having a character this random makes it a LOT more interesting than they probably would've been otherwise (we already have a lot of other RPG characters anyway)
Maybe the balancing could've been handled a little differently, fair, but I'm still a fan of the end result
I'll give you the language thing though, they REALLY should've put symbols on the spells
If we only had to keep one JRPG character out of all the DLC I would definitely choose Hero, and this is coming from someone who loves Sephiroth too. But even then not even the inclusion of Hero could shut up Goku fans.
Hard agree, Hero is not that bad aside from a few traits, which is far from being exclusive to Hero.
In addition to the symbols, random crits are also quite stupid and really don't add much since Pokemon, Persona, Final Fantasy, Fire Emblem (for the most part) have done pretty much fine without random criticals. Or if people have problems with their representation, its probably not for excluding critical hits.
KACLANG!
@@Krona-fb4dn Mother has critical hits too - pretty quirky, iconic critical hits might I add - and yet Ness and Lucas have done fine without random crits in Super Smash Bros as well. It would actually be pretty thematic if they did have crits in Smash, because...well, crits in Mother go "SMAAAAAAASH".
It would be pretty fun if a sweet-spotted fully-charged smash attack from Ness or Lucas showed a "SMAAAAAAASH" graphic next to them with accompanying sound effect if they successfully hit the opponent.
@@k-leb4671 Dear god, it would be dopamine to rival a hatchet man. Anyhow, I honestly think Hero would have been perfectly fine without crits, and I have him as a secondary. No reason for me to just occasionally kill people at 20% because I used Psyche Up and rolled lucky on an F-Smash.
Hot take: I don't actually think the main issue with Sonic is his moveset, it's his animations. The majority of his attacks, including the ones where he isn't curling into a ball, are all painfully generic or borderline slapstick (seriously what is that f-smash and f-air?) To the point where I'd argue the fun isn't even in fighting with the character but just moving around as him. The feeling of chaining your specials together to expertly manuevar around platforms, doding projectiles and attacks and quickly closing the distance to your opponent is great! But when you start attacking, the fun's over. You're now throwing out the same basic one-two combo with soulless moves from a character whose face is perpetually frozen in a smile.
Realisiticly, the best way to "overhaul" Sonic for the next game is redo a ton of his animations. Let him have emotions and radiate the cool & flashy aura people love him for. Let him pull off tricks after a homing attack, or use more breakdancing inspired moves for smash attacks and aerials. Have his attacks and movement show him off in ways equivalent or more exciting than Captain Falcon. And I gaurantee much less people would adapt the campy playstyle, despite having the same mechanics, on the virtue of WANTING to be fast and aggressive just by the virtue of how cool it looks.
The Forward Smash in particular is actually the Windup Punch from _Sonic The Fighters,_ where it's one of Sonic's listed moves (half-circle forward + punch) from there. I'd honestly keep that, but rework a lot of Sonic's kit to include more varied standard moves; like, for instance, the Drop Dash from _Mania_ as part of Sonic's Down Special (activated by charging up in mid-air), his Sonic Eagle heel kick from _Battle_ as his f-air, the Insta-Shield from _3 & Knuckles_ for the n-air (which could also deflect projectiles if timed just right), the Humming Top from the _Advance_ series as his b-air, and the Stomp from _Unleashed_ onward for d-air. Absolutely loads of untapped potential with what he can do now!
I don't get why Kazuya's final smash is both a trapping final smash and a state-wide final smash at the same time? Either shoot the multiple lasers right now or have the cutscene be longer by showing physical attacks and finish off with multiple lasers
Yeah I honestly hated playing against Kazuya because my reaction was like this ew Kazuya is so uncool
Sorry but Kazuya is really cool
@@vanessasandoval96COMMON KAZUYA HATER W 🔥🔥🔥
Kazuya's overdesign just pisses me off. It kind of shows a dumb bias Sakurai has, which leaves more of a bad taste in my mouth than hyped for a Tekkan rep. If he cared so much about fighting games, why didn't he give the same treatment with Street Fighter and Fatal Fury?
@@mildlyinvested2992 nah this is fucking L
5:53 heavily incorrect and Sephiroth’s honest issue is the fact that competitively wise he’s balanced. His speed and range making him oppressive to try and approach so having him be a tall easy character to combo is valid. The weight is much though id say it’s an oversight that can be midigated
I'd also say that the wing mechanics feels way too gimped. If he's gonna be a lighter character, I don't see the issue in him keeping the wing until he loses the stock
@@gv82089like if he gets a kill with an edgeguard and he loses his wing he can just die which is stupid
Just let him keep it until he lands or is at like 150%
Yeah sephi is one of the few I disagree with being here. Agree with you, he’s too honest. I wish they buffed his weight. I’d be fine with sephiroth being much stronger. Very cool character.
I think Sephiroth was only put in the game to make up for the lack of content FINAL FANTASY 7 had when Cloud got in the game because he only came with 2 songs
@@SamuelJohnsonYTmind blowingly stupid thought
Ah yes, Little Mac, the ironic punching bag of the Smash roster. To be honest, I always thought his design philosophy was kinda dumb from the start. Like, yeah, he is just “a guy,” but the Punch-Out universe is still pretty divorced from reality. Real-life competitive boxing divides playership by weight class, yet puny Mac is regularly going up against giant brutes like King Hippo and Bald Bull all the time. Not to mention the WVBA somehow allowing boxers to bring safety padding, “performance enhancing” drinks, makeshift armor, magic powers, and full-on weapons into the ring. It’d honestly be fine to buff up Mac’s aerials to make them stronger and more useful-his sub-par recovery game is already a severe drawback. It makes him a sort of rushdown, swarming fighter, one who wants to stay in the opponent’s face as much as possible, hit them where it really hurts, and keep wailing on them, no matter how many hits he takes in the process. You know, basically the gameplay of Punch-Out?
He really should have (an adaptation of) the Star Punch system instead of the KO meter too. And totally agree on actually giving him an aerial game.
I love the way he's done here: ruclips.net/video/dsvKFIKPeRE/видео.html
he's fun to play. I hope they don't change his play style because of a bunch of tournament player whine about it.
I don't mind his recovery, it just takes a good amount of getting used to at first.
And of course you can be ledge guarded easily... Looking at you Sora... But learning how to counter their approach is the best part of playing Mac for me. You have to learn how the opponent plays in order to reach your max potential.
@@beethovenlivesupstairs4182 Tournament players and casuals alike whine about it tho. He's too ineffective on the former level and too good on the latter level. The problem is his extremes, not his low-tier status.
@quillion3rdoption i don't think anyone understands little mac but little mac mains.
Little Mac's design is fine being the polar opp of Jigglypuff but people harp on the same points without any nuance to them.
Little Mac having a "bad" air game is ok, its never been non existant as people say it is (sans his back air), the KO punch is scary but its... not good as people say it is and lit every other comeback mechanic is better than it. His recovery is really bad but not on its face. Im ok with Mac having a nerf in power if all the little things that make his recovery god awful was gone
I do think Banjo needs some tweaks, but I feel the hate is a bit overblown and often comes from people who expected the dlc characters to be nothing but gimmicks
Zoners are cool too.
I'd also at least give him a way to replenish Gold Feathers without having to die or reset. Like, say, inflicting 100% damage?
@ sure, or even after taking stocks (after having lost all five)
I disagree completely with Sephiroth being on this list.
Maybe I’m biased because he’s my main. but in my opinion, he makes you feel like you are a final boss with plenty of moves that are pretty easy to exploit if you see them coming, but if you don’t see them coming, he will manipulate you straight into his cards and you will be in his despair just how he manipulated everyone in Final Fantasy VII, and one wing is one of the healthiest comeback mechanics in the game, compared to the others, which just give you a new cheap ability to destroy someone’s stock, this just gives you some character buffs, that’s all. Plus all of his animations are just some *chefs kiss*. The only reason he fell off is because a lot of his weaknesses have become much more exploitable, including his light weight, which I do believe is pretty unnecessary. But that happened with a lot of characters in this game.
Fellow Sephiroth main here. I pretty much agree. He is a mid tier, and overall fairly balanced. One wing could be a little bit more understandable, and he could use slight buffs, but overall he is in a good place. He feels fun to play, and his strengths of massive range seems fairly balanced by his weaknesses.
Also, no idea what Delzethin was talking about with the two sweetspot types being a problem. I like having the option, and it helps different moves be distinct. Lots of poke moves for ultra long range, slashes for the kills.
My problem is he doesn't feel like a cool final boss when you're trying to escape ledge and ftilt is covering the state of texas
@@Fredysaurus having trouble trying to escape a ledge that’s a problem then almost every character has to deal with some degree and as for f-tilt been way too long that’s one of the reasons that makes him feel so strong. You have all the power and the sword that is so long and it’s making it really hard for your opponents to get in.
Agreed with your final boss statement. No problems with the one winged angel here, I just honestly wish he was buffed. I love fighting against him since he feels like a boss fight. I just wish the fight was a little harder lol.
He fell off because he's a zoner that's actually weak under pressure.
Regarding Kirby, i'm just genuinely shocked that Inhale still doesn't work like it how does in his home series. That's literally the thing he's been doing since before copy abilities, how has it been left as an awful mimic of itself for literal decades.
I love how characters like Mario (with his dash attack), Megaman and even Cloud (with their down tilts) can do slide attacks but Kirby gets a silly looking foot poke when he too can slide in his games.
@@devoniandirk It never feels like I'm incentivised to use Inhale because of its flaws. I also wish the Star Bullets he spat out were better. Literally his main attack when he's abilityless and it sucks. Villager and Isabelle's Pocket is better at doing it.
Inhale's usefulness varies, but typically if the foe has a projectile as their neutral it can be a huge help with Kirby's short range. /My/ problem with the inhale though, is that inhaling projectiles themselves is utterly pointless and that infuriates me. Why does Kirby get punished MORE for inhaling a small projectile than just taking the hit? He gets caught up in so much end lag auto-swallowing them, and heals way too little to warrant it-- I just wish he could hold any projectile in his mouth and shoot out an appropriately sized star.
Inhale is the best it's ever been in Ultimate, yet it still sucks as a reflector! It's great vs the few "big" projectiles, but against most of the other projectiles? Unviable. That's NOT how Kirby plays in his games, yet some folks don't think Kirby should get a revamp lol.
@@RekRakJat Or even copy the ability of the character who shot him.
It has to be Sonic for me. The entire representation of the Sonic franchise in Smash seems not to understand any of the series' appeal in the first place, pulling most prominently from games that aren't representative of the series today (Sonic 1 and Sonic Lost World stages, cut down vocal tracks, complete lack of personality or edge). I almost think the entire moveset is unsalvageable, I'd rather they start from scratch barring maybe a couple of the specials. The current moveset and stages are almost disrespectful of Sonic's legacy as a platforming mascot compared to a character like Banjo which, despite the lacking moveset, feels filled with love and care for the original franchise. He was a rushed character before movesets were this complicated, but it has been far too long.
I'd say the moveset isn't completely unsalvageable, look at his Project M moveset, it takes his official one fixes what actually is broken but keeps what isn't, and even though Project M is pretty old now the moveset still holds and he really needs something like that. The representation for the rest of the series outside of his moveset will definitely get some changes since the Sonic series is no longer what it was back when Ultimate was in development. SEGA will likely want changes to fit what the Sonic series is now than how it was then.
I remember being so disappointed when I saw that a Lost World stage was chosen to be added to Smash when there were so many better options to pick from.
Even as a Luigi main, he should 100% be on this list. He is a one sided character like sonic. He is fun to play as but not at all to play against. Especially when your stock spontaneous combusts because you get grabbed at zero. Although coming into this smash game I wished he would be more viable, I would have not wanted it to be like this.
My issue with Samus is that they make every aspect of fighting her a weighted guessing minigame, from neutral to advantage+disadvantage. With Dread's moveset I feel like she could be a fun mid to close-range zoner that focuses on pressuring from range and skillfully parrying any close-range pressure against her. I've never liked this hyper-defensive character that gets rewarded even when she fails to zone.
8:33 Honestly I don’t think DK’s moveset is bad, animation wise he really needs an update making him a bit overconfident and not taking the fight seriously at low percents but actually deciding to lock in when his opponent actually starts to put up a real fight would do wonders to his personality which he’s really lacking in smash.
The only major changes I would make to his moveset would be giving him the barrel cannon as an up special and changing his side special into the Sonic Clap from Jungle beat, a tool for DK to neutralize energy projectiles and disable normal ones, allowing DK to pick them up and use them for himself, I don’t think he needs the barrel toss move imo because it just feels a bit forced into his moveset even if it’s an iconic part of his series.
I would've changed his final smash to either Moon Punch or Robo Donkey Kong
I'd still prefer the Barrel Roll, but honestly I'd be happy with the Sonic Clap if we got that instead
@@waheedabdullah6371 honestly the I had was him uppercutting the opponent and causing them to accidentally land onto the Banana hoard destroying some of the Bananas right infront of a furious DK who beats the tar out of the opponents before launching them out of the hoard with another uppercut.
@@keksidy I just think it would be clunky for his Grappler design to give him a long range projectile imo.
I thought this too. I've only played Tropical Freeze but that was his most recent game and he is very straight forward in that game. The only thing I feel like we're missing is the presence of some kind of barrel in his moveset but other than that, I'm not sure what you would do moveset wise to "modernize" DK. What I think they can do to make him feel less generic is *stop using these stock monkey sounds for him.* That's my biggest problem with him. DK has very distinct recognizable monkey sounds but it's never used over "big generic gorilla". It was fine in Melee but now I think it's gotten to the point where you should just give him his voice from the games he's in (same goes for Diddy and Bowser)
I’ll be down for the best designed fighters in Smash
Wolf, fox, pokemon trainer, lucina, Krool, falcon, mii brawler, and bayo are some of my faves in terms of design. If you're curious i'll explain why for each.
@@AndreBabaniwolf???
@@Veilure well yeah. He's a great all rounder for teaching you the game. Projectile, disjoints, comboes, movement, he has it all. On top of that, he's a good character without being broken. He's great design.
@@AndreBabani A good character ≠ a good design
@@Veilure alright then smart one why ISNT he good design then?
If lucario isn’t on here I’ll be surprised
Friendly fire will not be tolerated
@@King90983 yes it will
Immediately had the same thought
Sonic has to be in here as well
@@sundowniseeu friendly friendly fire will also not be tolerated
17:57 This is why I lost interest in playing G&W after maining him in Brawl and Sm4sh. Sure, he got stronger, but at the same time it mostly felt like it came from cheap-ish spammable moves to the point he made me feel more carried than satisfied or skilled when playing him.
I hate how much it reflects his tournament performances. Hurt, BeastModePaul, Tweek, and Light get nothing from calling the character out unless it’s a simple kill move or kill confirm, and if you dare counter play him with projectiles, you lose your stock stupidly early because Bucket isn’t properly nerfed to account how unfair and unhinged his close-up game is. Up-air, up-b, chef, and down-b should be nerfed if they want anyone to actually have fun fighting him.
I’m honestly shocked that Olimar wasn’t mentioned here. For a character that comes from a RTS game, there isn’t really much “strategy” to his Smash gameplay. I really hate how his smash design just boils down to just running away and mindlessly throwing Pikmim at the opponent (which can rack up a STUPID amount of damage, btw), and spamming his ridiculously overtuned smash attacks. Plus, the Pikmin sticking on to the opponent and having your attacks be slowed down by them in the process is really stupid IMO, and the worst of them all is them having such a high-priority hurtbox that allows them to completely SPONGE a fully-charged Seamus Charge Shot is so horrible!
Not to mention: his animations all looks so similar to each other, making it hard to tell what move he’s gonna throw out next. Just look at his Side B, his Forward Smash, and his grab animation back to back, and you’ll see what I mean.
Also, does anyone else feel like his Neutral Special, Pikmin Pluck, feels like a wasted special slot? I feel it could’ve easily have been a shield-special, akin to Inkling’s ink refill mechanic, where he can quickly pluck new Pikmin like that, to make way for a different, more usable Neutral Special from his games (not sure what, but something can be thought of.)
For anything, its probably due to his absurd rarity at most levels so he flies way under the radar. That and his faults are not immediately obvious, like Mac or Sonic.
There is a lot of misinformation in this post that I can see why you think he is badly represented. I think his animations definitely need work though, but a lot of what you said is just completely incorrect. The only Pikmin that can even tank a Samus charge shot is yellow since charge shot is electric (and yellow is electric type). The other Pikmin will completely just die. Any other projectile for the most part will also block it like young link bomb depending on its strength (so if you just meant taking the hit then that's not even unique to olimar). I think there are somethings you should research more. Upsmash was overturned at launch, but his spamming smash attacks as well is a recipe for failure and his smash attacks get killed (which puts you without Pikmin).
I’d say Olimar is a character who lives and dies by his janky nature. He’s got some crazy stuff that he can do but it’s all balanced out by him being inconsistent almost by design. For every upside Pikmin jank gives him there’s a downside.
@@the3dluxe53 I've played against some solid olimars online (I play Ridley), his attacks do feel pretty stubby and without pikmin, he's genuinely the same tier as Sopo.
I think Sonic's main and biggest problem is his speed ironically. He blitzes the second fastest character in the game. Accurate but not conducive to a healthy character when running away is the optimal option. I don't even think his moveset is that awful. People play up the ball but (not counting Down Throw) the only egregious one out of the 5 (yes he only has 5) is Side B which should probably be the boost at this point (non damaging move, of course). With one or two more move changes along with making Sonic *want* to fight you and bringing some more expression to his face, I think Sonic should be just fine.
One thing I thought of is to bring the mechanic from his early games where he games over if you took too long to finish. If time runs out in a competitive match (I was thinking this should only apply in 1v1 with no items and two min per stock at least), but if match goes to time, sonic would immediately lose. This would allow him to keep his defining super speed while also putting a risk to using to run away. This probably would encourage his opponents to try and camp him out, but I feel that sonic has plenty of tools to deal with it. I feel we already did something similar with Jigglypuff insta dying if her shield breaks.I do also agree that side b should be boost. But I feel timeouts being negative for sonic would encourage him to play more aggressively while not having to neuter his speed for balancing sake. Is it a bit of an extreme method? Yes, but his speed is also extreme and that is a defining characteristic of sonic and having another extreme to balance that huge bonus would be more fair.
Also make the man more expressive. He one of the most personable characters in his series and yet it barely show in his moveset. Let him pose after a successful homing shot. Give him facial expressions besides the smirk he constantly has. Little things like that to make him feel like a living being and not a dude in a mascot outfit which is how sonic feels in smash.
@@castform7 Another thing that sucks about Sonic is there not being a single Ring referenced anywhere in Sonic’s moveset, taunts, stages or victory animations, meanwhile Mario gets to have Coins in his up b and on that NSMB2 stage where if you collect them you turn gold, the Ring SFX is a very iconic video game sound effect and it’s nowhere to be found, not even on Sonic’s Stages to collect for some cool fun power up or something.
Oh and Castlevania gets have that Death Scythe item despite being a 3rd Party, yeah I know Pac-Man or rather Bamco has items too since they helped to develop Smash, but a Sonic item would’ve been cool too.
His speed isn't particularly accurate to his games. Especially in the case of his 2D platformers, the speed he garners is meant to be gained through momentum. He has bad traction, bad accelleration, and bad air control because he is meant to get to his top speed and the challenge is to keep that speed though tight jump timing. The momentum aspect is lost entirely in Smash since he can just dash from 0-100 instantly and has insane priority on his burst movement-based attacks.
With the way Smash handles running, though, it's virtually impossible to recreate. The best you could do is make his movement, specials, and jumps super committal by, for example, removing his ability to spin dash across the stage, jump, and then start a spindash again mid air to flinging across the stage the opposite way. Certain mods of other smash games do handle this particular aspect a little better. For example, Smash 64 Remix makes him only able to initiate his down-B spin dash in the same direction he's already facing, with the Melee Akaneia build following suit and making his Side-B a charged up Light Speed Dash ala Sonic Adventure 1. Couple changes to that strategy with making his air speed contingent on his grounded momentum into the jump with little wiggle room and his ability to play passively is weakened substantially.
He needs a bit more combo ability, but then again, what character doesn't?
The mention of Kirby is super important. He deserves so much more. If the flaws with his actual character designed were addressed, I think he would be great, and NOT continue to be low tier
I think more copy abilities should be represented in his moveset, kinda similar to Megaman. A lot of them could make up for his flaws with lackluster range and so on
I'm no competitive player but as a Banjo main, I've noticed if you bait opponents with the egg moves and then rushdown on them, it tends to throw them off guard since most people are expecting egg spam
As soon as I saw the title of the video, I knew Sonic was going to be on here somewhere, I did not expect him to be the absolute worst designed character. So much missed potential with his moveset.
I think looking at Little Mac and saying he's "bad" because of his design is like looking at a Rubik's Cube and asking "why is this thing so square"
I don’t get the comparison
I think the supposed point is that Little Mac has never been shown fighting in the air in his games, so why depict Little Mac fighting in the air except the bare minimum? Except the issue is that at least with earlier fighters movesets have been made out of nothing, not even movement frames in their own games suggestive of something. Furthermore, even in newer design they do not always execute the purpose of the character nicely. So why should Little Mac being just a boxer prevent him from having any aerial game? It certainly should not be good because Smash practices faithfulness to the series in some manner, but the point is that he should defend himself in the air in general but as a last-ditch effort instead of being unable to at all.
the problem is that fighting against little mac just isn't very fun. what's the solution to a character with strong ground moves and terrible aerials? Stay in the air and run away. what do you do about a 1 hit ko move that lasts for a limited time? Stay in the air and run away.
i really think giving him an actual air game, and then somewhat toning back his ground moves, could make him a lot more fun to fight. compare it to actual punch out - you definitely have to be defensive, but you can't just run away. keep his bad disadvantage, keep his bad recovery, make it so if he makes one mistake he can get punished hard. but give him more options, make his game plan more interesting so it isn't straightforward to fight.
It's great that this moveset discussion is holistically focused around gameplay function, source reference, and balance alike! I'm not a fan of moveset discussion that's only focused on one of those three things.
5:44 Alright, I can’t help but laugh from this scene.
I can’t speak for most of these characters- I’m a casual person who mostly focuses on the characters I like and plays casually with friends. I would appreciate the older veterans getting modernized like DK and Ganondorf. The one change I really want, though, is DK getting his voice from the games. They had DK’s voice actor record new lines for Ultimate! He was right there to give DK his actual voice! And I cannot in any regard agree with Sakurai- when a character has eyes popping out of their head in a very cartoony manner, they get a cartoony voice because a realistic gorilla voice to make him intimidating DOES NOT work.
Yes, it’s a small thing that doesn’t affect gameplay, but it shows an entire lack of awareness of the character as he is now.
Also, yes, I would love to see a Best Designed characters video. Would be nice to follow the negative with the positive, and see which of the cast best embody what they are for Smash and their home games.
…Oh, and Ness’ PK Fire is INFURIATING. I stopped online Smash against randoms ENTIRELY back in 4 because of it, and Ultimate shows it’s still obnoxious.
I'm not going to lie, and I really do hate having to say this, but minor skill issue. Ness is one of those characters that forces you to play a bit slower than usual, play around his whims. Understandably not fun if you aren't used to the matchup. I get a ton of practice against Ness since my friend plays him, and it does take time to figure out the matchup.
Mostly, its just approaching with shield and punishing with out-of-shield options. Alternatively, spam harder than the Ness can (Character Dependant).
@@sicklysweetdenouement I mean, I DID say I am a casual player.
Also, the bulk of your reply is very insightful and respectable… so the “minor skill issue” thing is really unnecessary.
@wootmasterzorsx Ah, do forgive me. I got used to the general communities attitude being to complain in circles while practically ignoring advice, so I suppose I just naturally assume bad faith reactions at all turns.
I completely agree with your thoughts on Donkey Kong and honestly I wish bowser had his voice from the games too, it would be so much better!
@@sicklysweetdenouement It’s fine, I very much appreciate the advice. I will admit, given my casual play style, I’m not super likely to put it in practice, but I still am more than willing to accept the advice. And again, I really appreciate hearing all this, since learning to improve is important, even for a casual player like me.
I’ve played against friends and my brother plenty and had to learn to play around their play styles. And I have definitely improved from the days when I could never win against some of them.
5:44 I like the reference to the Mario and Luigi vs Sephiroth meme
Still don't understand Kirby not copying BOTW Link's hair
To be honest kirby with links hair would be a really good design choice because why does zelda get the hair but link does not :(
It allows them to reuse assets, and considering the sheer amount of work the devs had to do, they were going to take a shortcut where they could.
It must be a Sword Kirby reference.
18:01
Delzethin: Mr. Game & Watch has became a Problem
Also Delzethin a Year Ago: *Puts G&W on the S Tier in the Design Tier List*
While I do feel a little called out as a Min Min main, I completely get it. Especially considering that you can’t stop her limbs by hitting them like you can in ARMS. Funny enough, my pitch for Twintelle before we even knew that we were getting an ARMS character was to have the extending lives be only mapped to specials while the standard attacks were more normal (since Twintelle still had her actual normal arms & is canonically a bodybuilder).
As for Lucario’s play rate, while you’re generally right in this specific case, popular characters can sometimes be not played all that often. Chun-Li for example is generally the middle of the pack when it comes to player usage in Street Fighter 6, & Menat was barely used at all in SFV despite her popularity. And with Little Mac, I always imagined him fighting more like an out boxer (Ex: Ed) with how Punch-Out has always been about weaving your opponent as you learn their patterns & punish accordingly.
@@Neoxon619 stop the yap
@@King90983dude come on
@@thatonestarmanintorobotics4319 Im saying it to every one I felt like being a dick today
If you could stop her limbs by hitting them, she’d be a useless character and never get hits in. She might as well not have arms/hands at all. Plus you only get hit once, so it’s not like you’re being pummeled from a distance. Getting caught in Ness’ PK Thunder or PK Fire is way more annoying. If you’re caught in PK Fire, they’re close enough to get a smash attack on you while you’re essentially paralyzed. If Min Min hits you, she can only get one other arm punch attack in, and it has to be one that can reach the same distance. She’s also not good up close. If she misses, she’s a sitting duck and can easily get hit.
But I honestly love Min Min even playing against her and playing as her so smash 6 is still Min Min with Spring Man and Twintelle
He seriously made Mario & Luigi fight sephiroth
What I don't get is why couldn't Corrin's victory animations referenced all 3 paths?:
First victory animation has the Hoshido siblings praising Corrin and Corrin would say something like, "Let us bring peace for Hoshido!"
Second victory animation can have all the Nohr siblings praising Corrin and Corrin would say, "For the glory of Nohr!"
And the final victory animation has both Hoshido and Nohr siblings praising Corrin and Corrin would say, "Just like my fate, I have chosen my own victory!"
male corrin has the most derp voice line in the game in his victory screen. The "I wiiiiin" makes me burst out laughing every time.
Ehh who cares about Corrin of all characters, they were only a DLC for their time of being the current FOTM protagonist, they will likely get replaced with a new FE protagonist.
Delzethin should make a video about Smash’s music selection and point out all the 4 “Lost in thoughts all alone” tracks as a joke because that’s all the music fates ever got lol
To be honest, no one cares about Corrin 😔
In all honesty, you can Replace 2 of them…But let the Dragon Victory screen stay, I think that just look sick when Corrin does that.
you're right I really hope they reference the incest too that was my favourite part of the rebirth ;)
3:52 okay I will defend Hero since Arguably the RNG focus making it less competitive is the focus. Its fun for people like me to just throw Hero on for a match and just throw out spells at random and see what works. That being said, I can't say much on how it represents the Dragon Quest games. My thought was they were worried about Hero looking "boring" to non-JRPG fans (particularly the ones complaining about 'generic swordies') So they offset it with a crazy gimmick. I'm fine with Hero's kit as it is now but I can see the argument that it doesnt fit them.
6:49 also small disagree but just on Up special. The high jump makes no sense as an aerial move and Kazooie specifically has a flying move that would've made more sense. Its still weird that Sakurai didnt do that instead but its ultimately pretty minor.
Personally, my least favorite design is Byleth, and ironically, she's from the only Fire Emblem game I've played. I love Roy, and I like playing Lucina, Robin and even Corrin, but Byleth's design felt like the devs didnt trust the whip sword + Divine pulse to placate people so they gave her a big gimmick of using weapons on each button for no other reason than "now you cant say she's JUST a swordie." IMO, the kit doesnt represent Byleth well at all. Its the same thing I said for Hero's kit but Hero's feels more justified as a guest and being such an influential character. I think Byleth's kit would've been fine if it was just the sword of the creator because the main people who'd complain are the people who just hate she has a sword at all *OR* if they picked literally any of 3 house leaders for the slot instead; but Sakurai and Nintendo refuse to pick anyone but the protagonist for some reason unless they can be a clone.
I like Hero, but I also think he’d be a bit lame if he only had 4 options for spells. Sure, I’d probably cut out some because there’s a bunch that are virtually useless other than seemingly referencing the games, but I like having an assortment. If you want to have the more uber powerful ones around you could just make them less likely. I can understand some extent to videos like this. You don’t want broken characters (weak or overpowered), but I’m also not crazy about people thinking the competitive community should essentially be in charge. They’ll optimize the uniqueness or fun aspects out of things because they aren’t perfectly balanced.
As cool as Shulk is, my main problem with him is how is normal jabs, tilts and most aerials have terrible frame data
Sakurai develops movesets based on representing the surface level of a character
We can tell that he doesn't like changing his characters, Ryu is inspired in SF4 when we already have a much stronger, more enjoyable to play Ryu in SF6, even tho he now has a mechanic, he still a simple character
Link in Breath of the wild and Tears of the Kingdom has a huge moveset, so many options to pick from since those games are so different from past ones, but he just got a remote bomb (that is fun to use, don't get me wrong), a boring boomerang and a close range grab.
And still, many characters that have some abilities so interesting to pull from are scrapped
Sora is largely inspired of KH1 when KH2, 3D and KH3 have more interesting combat systems, moves, mechanics
Pit just has one Uprising move with upperdash arm when that game has so many weapons and abilities is crazy.
Sonic is just a ball when he has so many options, flashy moves for a flashy personality
YL and TL are just Link but more nimble and more passive, respectively, instead of using different items from his games.
MARIO HAS SO MANY TRANSFORMATIONS, MOVES, ABILITIES, AND HIS MOST RECENT ADITTION IS FLUDD WHICH CAME FROM A GAME THAT RELEASED OVER 20 YEARS AGO, LIKE WHY
You get the idea
smash ultimate was released in 2018, street fighter 6 was released last year, downright impossible to base a character on a game that came out 5 years later than yours.
Wario. Just Wario. My god, I can't even think about playing Smash Bros. without getting irrationally angry about how awful his moveset is. It baffles me at how Sakurai butchered his character from a greedy-strongman treasure hunter to a nothing but a farting joke.
I know right, you would think that since Smash Bros is a platform fighting game, it make sense that Wario’s moveset should be inspired by the Wario Land series since they are platforming games after all, but for some reason they didn’t do that which is weird. Goes to show you that Wario Land will always be the black sheep of Nintendo platformers.
@@Luis-yh9xd Thankfully we have AntonBlast now. The fact that it managed to get onto the Switch is honestly a major fuck you to Nintendo and I’m glad that it’s gaining traction on the internet. ♥️💣💚
@@freshnewcungadero I always pictured Wario (gameplay wise) to be a slow and hefty, but heavy-hitting grappler character with moves that pack a serious punch and throws that are on par with Incineroar in terms or how deadly they can be.
But no. He doesn’t have any of this. This fat fuck has some of the highest air speed and air acceleration in the game for some reason, has moves that don’t looks like “strongman” attacks at all (seriously, why is forward air a weak, stubby kick instead of a dummy-strong downward punch akin to Dr. Mario or Banjo’s fair), and throws that are laughably weak and have no utility whatsoever, despite his games being heavily centered around grabbing and throwing his enemies around.
Wario’s smash design seems so poorly though-out. No only does be barely represent the Wario Land series at ALL, he barely even represents WarioWare all that well, either. He moves are literally designed to just be offshoots of Mario’s attacks in Smash, which is clever, don’t get me wrong (even if this design philosophy caused him to get what is quite possibly the worst down smash in the whole game) but they could’ve done more with him. He is missing so many of his most well-known abilities from his home games that would’ve translated easily in Smash. The Earthshake Punch, his helmet powerups, his plethora of body transformations, his Wario World throws, the SHAKE, etc.
The only thing he has is the Shoulder Tackle as his dash attack, the wild swing-ding as his back throw, and his bike. Every else he has is completely made up for Smash.
@@dariuscox3576 Damn. You explained it better than I could. The only thing I will add is that his back throw is a laughably pathetic rendition of the Wild Swingding from WarioWorld, as you could move Wario around slightly as you swung the enemy you had grabbed. He would spin around like a top, with MULTIPLE spins. But in Smash, it’s one of the weakest back throws in the game, and his end lag often means your getting hit back anyways. Don’t get me started on his dash attack, as so many moronic Sakurai apologists seem to think that because he has his shoulder charge now, it automatically means both franchises are represented equally. BUT WARIO’S DASH ATTACK IN SMASH IS BARELY HOW IT FUNCTIONS IN EVERY OTHER GAME HES IN WHERE HE USES IT. Like, in WarioLand 4, you could jump and change how far you went while charging forward. In WarioLand: Shake it, you could cancel his regular Shoulder Bash into a ball roll down slopes, or even quickly body slide on the ground to sneak under ledges. BUT in Smash, all he can do is weakly slump forward with way too much end lag, and half the time IT DOESN’T EVEN KILL CONFIRM. Im sorry for ranting, because I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, but even thinking about how Smash Ultimate pointlessly butchered so many of my favorite characters enrages me even just thinking about it.
@@freshnewcungadero Bizarre take when Nintendo's actively promoted the game (*and* Pizza Tower, too)
Donkey Kong being here is a really confusing pick to me, especially when taking into account your Remake It episode on him. You didn’t really change that much of his moveset there, as you mainly focusing on updating his current tools he’s always had, and you even moved some of his old moves around and added back in an older Smash original move he lost back into his moveset. That’s not a slight against that rework, I still quite like it and think it was a great concept for an update for him, I just feel your stance on him here kinda contradicts what you’ve made for him in the past. I definitely don’t think DK is as outdated as the rest of the other picks there.
I was thinking the same thing. It's okay if he's had a change of heart but I still wouldn't personally say DK is all that bad of characters when it comes to representing themselves. Yeah, DK's moves don't take from his games but I'm not really sure of what we're missing outside of a barrel move of some sort.
"Ever noticed how no one plays Banjo?"
I guess I'm no one then ;-;
They’re my main! They could be the absolute worst in the game and they’d still be my top pick.
@@thevillipeopleYeah but as a Mac main... I accept my place on the totem pole...
Hi No one, I think your main is very cool👍
Greetings, no one, please keep spamming wonderwing into my Hero with an open command prompt, it'll work this time I promise.
While Hero is possibly badly executed, I think hes one of the most fun characters to play on this list. Casually having a character thats so unpredictable is so fun, and he also doesnt bring down the game competitively because his best options are inconsistent, and therefore you dont really have to camp him out like with Little Mac. In fact he heavily encourages engagement since most of his options are slow and need time to be read. Obviously this isnt the best for the player but if they chose Hero they knew what they were getting intom.
I always think Steve is the worst until I remember, oh yeah, Sonic plays nothing like how Sonic would want to play a match.
The only thing I can say about it that even comes close to the games is that it mimics boss fights in which Sonic has to wait for an opening and capitalize on it, and then go back to waiting and dodging. But we all know these bosses are the things Sonic fans don't look forward to in his games, we'd rather be fighting the second fight against Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2. I really hope they round him out next time.
It's funny cause that's not even a Sonic specific game plan. Plenty of platforming games have the "wait for the vulnerable spot, then attack" pattern in bossfights. Hell, ZELDA games were all about that in most of their 3D titles. If anything, some bosses in original Sonic games could be beaten incredibly fast if you were good enough. And you'd destroy them by literally overwhelming them with attacks while simultaneously avoiding whatever they threw at you.
@LexStormA Chemical Plant boss is just 8 bounces before Eggman can get an attack in.
I'm gonna be 100% real when I say this, I don't understand why people say DK needs to be updated outside of giving him his canon voice. The majority of what he does in Smash is pretty much on brand with what he does in the games with the only real differences being that he's a lot slower in Smash than canon and I don't think people are prepared for a fast DK. Also a lot of people want to give him a Barrel move... just play with Barrels on, that's literally the point of them.
It's not like he's slow in Smash either. His movement stats are mostly above average.
Honestly I agree Dk just needs a huge animation overhaul and he’d be fine and even then for new moves just give him the barrel cannon and Sonic clap to replace his more off moves you don’t need to go too far in redesigning him.
@@Err0_Will The barrel's an important enough part of the character to warrant being both an item and an attack (which isn't unprecedented in Smash). This is made worse by the fact that Side Special feels like a filler move, and Up Special is a strange choice that would feel more appropriate being the barrel cannon. If you want an example of how barrels could be part of a DK moveset, I'd recommend checking out DK's Skylanders moveset. Outside of that, I agree that most of his moveset is appropriate.
@@Baconator2558it’s
Like giving Mario a move where he takes out and kicks a koopa shell if that makes sense, it’s a pointless reference for the sake of reference
@@smashers6971 I mean, why have any of the characters use moves from their games then. They should all just use basic punches and kicks.
It’s crazy how it took Ganondorf until Ultimate to use his sword and even then those sword attacks are copypasted Ike and Cloud Smash Attacks, with the same Captain Falcon with Dark Flames Moveset.
The Smash team ain't gonna waste time re-animating individual moves in an already perfectly good moveset.
@@quillion3rdoptionthat moveset has a few iconic pieces but it is one of among the least “perfect” in this game
@@KevSB07 Ganondorf uses brawling attacks canonically and had his sword added. What else does he even need?
@@quillion3rdoptionHe’s not a goddamn Captain Falcon ripoff, he has a character. He’s not gonna throw out random punches and kicks like he does in Smash
@@quillion3rdoption
Ganondorf barely uses brawling moves in his games. He mostly relies on weapons and magic.
This isn't a new topic, but Mii Swordfighter definitely is up there in bad design. While Brawler and Gunner have tools and moves that all make sense for the archetype they're going for, Swordfighter has less than average range, aerials that looks more like poking than slashing (which isn't what a Swordfighter should be), and specials that cater to more zoning than swordfighting, as good as those moves may be. When Miis return for Smash 6, Swordfighter should at least get a sword arc FAir.
the worst part about him is how he's based off Link and not Marth who is the face of platform fighter swordfighters. Mii Swordfighter is just a worse version of young link and it's so sad because Swordfighter should be a spacer, not more aligned with being a zoner
Yeah, I too wish that Mii Swordfighter was based more off of Marth than Link, IMO.
He could’ve had a Marth-like Fair, a Marth-like Up Air, a downward thrust for a down air that ACTUALLY SPIKES, make him a bit faster on the ground, give him Marth’s tipper mechanic, and even a Side Special that resembles more like Dancing Blade (replace that god-awful Airborne Assault with it.) Make him feel like a TRUE text-book definition of a mid-ranged swordfighter who plays patiently and precisely space his attacks, not this weird stubby-ranged, grab-confirming, projectile-spamming sword-zoner hybrid design they were going for.
Mii Swordfighter should also be using his SWORD more for his specials, instead of having him throw random objects at his opponent that don’t actually involve his sword at all.
Man its bizarre to see so many people hate mii swordfighter for genuinely being a unique and interesting sword fighter and NOT another marth clone is everyone really so butthurt he doesint function like marth they are willing to neglect all the positives with them
Like u guys gonna ignore the fact the swordfighter has a reflector projectile and arguably the best Ariel moves of any sword fighter
Who cares if he doesn’t slash and instead jabs and their range actually outranks many other sword fighters like all the links byleth etc do we REALLY need another marth clone?
@@michaelbecket4901 I’m a Swordfighter main and I completely agree
We don’t need another Marth clone that’s advertised as a character they are not, I’m perfectly happy maining Swordfighter as they are and it brings me unprecedented levels of joy unlike any other character
If the developers were to go in that direction and just rework him into another stereotypical swordie, I might as well not fucking play
@@michaelbecket4901 To be clear, I don't hate the fighter. I love him just like all the other Miis (Shuriken > Gale imo). But he doesn't play like how he should considering the fact that he's portrayed as one of the quintessential examples of the architype. He's primarily a zoner, not a swordfighter. No one is mad at link's design because (besides having source material) he doesn't have the job of being an example swordfighter. Marth, before being in smash, could have also been a zoner in a parallel universe.
But because of Mii Swordfighter's title and lack of source (meaning moves can be literally anything), they could have made him into a better answer to the question "What does a Swordfighter in a platform fighter look like?"
Is he a fun character? Personally, Yes.
Does he do the job he sets out to do? Objectively, No.
I don't think a character feeling old in design is a bad thing. They're simple and easy to understand, Ultimate's newcomers tend to be more complex and that isn't always a good thing. I feel like if they changed DK's moveset, without Sakurai we'd just get retro era moves.
I swear to god if you say Kazuya is badly designed I will be upset.
Edit: I am very upset
I remember when Ultimate came out and I was hoping that Sonic would be one of the best characters to use... well, I guess that he is in an undesirable way.
Even if he's not THE most uninspired character in the game, it really does feel like he got shafted in almost every way. Bland moveset, bland facial expressions, plain music track with no remixes, two stages with the second being discount Green Hill, and no new characters despite there being perfect echo potential with Shadow.
Not trying to sound rude to Sakurai or anything, but it hurts seeing just how lacking he feels compared to all the love and detail pretty much every other third party got.
My principal issue with Hero is the lack of Language-neutral symbols for the Spell list. I speak a decent amount of Japanese, but I don't know any of the Japanese spell names from DQ so it's just as difficult.
Imagine this rework of Hero:
- Instead of fixed spells on neutral and side B and a random selection of spells on down B, his side B contains projectile spells common to the Hero classes of his game series (Firebal/Firebane/Frizz/Frizzle, Zap/Thordain, etc) and maybe some debuffs like Sleep, his neutral B contains buffing moves like Oomph and Accelerate, and his Down B contains Heal/Midheal/Healmore, Ironize/Kaclang, some third spell defensive or reactive spell, and Hocus Pocus to maximize the randomness much like he already has currently.
- Alternately, one menu for the Mage spells (Fire, ice, attack or defense up, sleep), one for Cleric spells (heal, speed buff, wind elemental attack, instant kill), one for the Hero spells (lightning attacks, Kaclang) and miscellaneous (Hocus Pocus)
- Only Up B remains a fixed spell (Ruura/Return/Zoom) for recovery.
- Thus, aside from his stage recovery, all of his moves require a little bit of menuing, with the more intricate or more powerful moves requiring you to dig deeper into the menu.
- His swordplay game is made just decent enough to work without magic; Dragon Quest heroes tend to be fairly slow classes within their series, but also physical heavy hitters only _barely_ below the purely physical Warriors and Fighters (or Soldiers and Martial Artists? Inconsistent translations across decades).
17:50 Thank you for mentioning this. People who claim that Steve is worse than Bayo or Meta Knight are crazy.
I also think people who say Steve is comparable or equal to Brawl MK and Sm4sh Bayo are either out of their minds or intentionally exaggerating to push the Steve ban agenda. He’s nowhere near as oppressive as the latter two were.
I bet there will be at least 3 characters from Fighters Pass 2.
After watching the video, I was right. You could've easily slotted Pythra in as well. Actually a lot of characters in Ultimate are designed really poorly, and frankly I don't have much hope for most of them improving in Smash 6
Min Min, Steve and Sephiroth were there. So congrats, you're correct.
@@grunkleg.2934 stop the yap did I ask
Steve is the greater of the evils, I can’t believe Sakurai had to retool every stage just for one character gimmick.
Blame the guy who told Sakurai to add Steve in Smash. It basically forces him to add him to the game.
@@ToadetteTails6969 Also Kazuya
I don't agree with hero being on this list the way you talked about him usually the randomness is fine given fitting all of the spells in a readable menu at once would be impossible to do in terms of ui its the language barrier thats the real problem that still hasn't been fixed to this day
What I learned from this video is that Smash players are not used to characters having unique strengths and weaknesses.
Lol agreed people complain about macs flaws but… theres far worse characters such as olimar incineroar kazuya all of which have very deep flaws and in incineroars donkey kong and kazuyas case dont have the ground game mac has to make up for their flaws but instead rely on simple gimmicks that get spammed to shit and back
Unique strengths/weaknesses can still be poorly designed.
@@SubspaceJigglypuff and people who are well balanced can be poorly designed such as DK olimar sephiroth etc your argument just comes from a place of someone who believes in tiers
So answer me what is fun about dealing with:
-An overtuned ground game that forces camping on BOTH sides
-Blatant perpetual comeback
-Option dice rolling
-Sword user #81,018,001 screaming at their opponent to have mobility
-0-Deaths off of a tether grab as a result of a Down Air with a stupid convenient KB angle
-Dhalsim without the extension hurtboxes and with good mobility
-Somebody with 0-Deaths that as PatchyDogg experienced can get the opponent BANNED ONLINE, as well as move invincibility out the rear and generally OTT knowledge burden
-Somebody who runs away for wins by timeouts ridiculously often while not having a hard time landing the first hit to begin with
@@MasterKnightDH congrats welcome to smash bros where characters are unique and have unique stats lol
An overtuned gameplay mechanic is nothing special hes not even the first one to get it arguably captain falcon and pikachu were overtuned in smash 64 and fox in melee and meta knight in brawl and out of those only 1 (meta knight) was arguably considered genuinely broken
And the whole camping excuse is pathetic when u have characters like sonic ness pikachu etc roam the games despite being perfectly balanced characters characters like ness default to PK fire anyways for easy combos and wins despite having a vast arsenal of unique and powerful moves mac having great ground game and poor air game hardly makes him unapproachable thus the excuse of just grab him and toss him off was invented even though decent mac players rarely fall for this
Yes blatent perpetual comeback for a high risk high reward character who can die as easily as he kills u can literally say the same thing about cloud who unlike mac has much higher survival game thus would be even more broken since he has a move that instant kills at moderate % while having the ability to abuse and charge it at will lol😂🤣
And the rest of these is just excuses a him having good stats seriously hit and runs? U mean something like literally a little under HALF the roster can do? And unlike most of them mac can exactly run fast up platforms or stages with lots of jumping and also doesint have a single projectile to keep u at bay either get over it u guys just want an excuse to hate him
I am once again disappointed in the sheer lack of knowledge a RUclipsr I like has about Mac's aerials
Sweet! I always love it when you tap into something different, and I'm happy to see you address some of the most poorly designed Moveset in Great Fray Smash Brothers Special, and you've already done several remake Videos fixing them like 1 Bad Execution (with Little Mac's upcoming Remake It Video, making him 2 of BE), all of Poorly Aged, half of Toxic Opponents, The Worst, and 1 Honorable Mention, with Samus actually being your very first RI Video (hard to believe it's already been almost 3 years since this series began, and that you already made 13, with 14 not to far ahead from now)! It is sad to see that several of Special's Fighters have ended up being either underpowered like Hero (I still HATE their English Spell names with a burning passion, like seriously, who the hell came up with these names when translating them? Did a 4-year-old come up with the garbage English ones when they were translating them from their original, vastly superior Japanese names, or something? But I seriously digress), Sephiroth, Lucario, and Little Mac, to missed opportunity ones like Samus Aran, Kirby, Ganondorf (or "Falcondorf" as you've called him, which is hilarious, and true (sadly)), and Donkey Kong, to extremely polarizing ones like Luigi, Min Min, Kazuya Mishima, and Steve, to the absolute worst of the worst being of course Sonic The Hedgehog, as well as others like Dr. Mario, Princess Zelda, Banjo & Kazooie, Robot, and Mr. Game & Watch, and it's even more of a shame that when COVID happened right at the very beginning of Fighter Pass 2 the developers had even less to fix many of these issues... Hopefully whenever Smash 6 comes, they'll FINALLY take into account, and update several of these Movesets that have needed fixing BADLY. I agree with all 18 Fighters mentioned in the Video, and I think a couple more characters to include in HM would be the Mother boys, Ness, and Lucas as they've become infamous for spamming their PK Fires. I'd also pick Inkling for BE due to them using their limbs to attack, and even grab opponents when they could never do that in Splatoon, Link for PA since hardly any Breath Of The Wild source material was used like not using Parasail from BOTW as his new Up Special, and just keeps his terrible spin sword attack, Koopa for PA since several of his unique attacks like his old Back Aerial, and Front Smash replaced with generic kicks, Wario for PA since several of his Moves feel like a rip-off of Mario's Moveset, and not the greddy anti-hero we all know, and love, Mario for PA as while nowhere near as poorly aged as other veterans, I do still feel like he's missing key features from his series, at the very least include his iconic Hip Drop that he's had since his 3D inception for his new Down Aerial, Princess Daisy for PA since she's mostly just a clone of Peach with very small differences, and not her own unique Moveset, Gaogaen for using mostly generic wrestling abilities, and several of them feeling like direct copies of King K. Roll, and I believe they could've used more scratches for their attacks since they're a feline Pokemon, and many others, but I don't wanna be here all day. XD Anyway, another great Video once again, Del! I always enjoy it when you do different things every now, and then! And yeah, I totally be down with you doing a follow-up video talking about Special's best designed characters, I mean after all it only makes sense (also hope that the X Design Tier List Video is finally coming at some point as it's been over a year since the Deluxe Video)! Look forward to the next RI Video, and future Videos from you!
tl;dr
KAZUYA CAN JUST IGNORE MOST HITS??
He has Bowser’s Tough Guy, and then some
He deadass makes Bowser look bad in comparison
Honestly speaking, I seriously find Joker qualifying as toxic as well. He feels like he embodies Luigi's brand of toxicity, just with the guns, curses, and Arsene instead of the grab game. At least for Fighter's Pass 1, it almost felt like there was a bit of bias leaking into his design compared to anyone else in the pass. That said, I can admit that Fighter's Pass 2 put him to shame with Kazuya getting everything and more in his moveset and Steve having the devs alter the game's stage code to accommodate the most unfair mechanic in Smash history, which can even be abused to cancel knockback.
Also, Piranha Plant has to be the record setter for its novelty wearing off. It stopped feeling fun to fight against or as it after a few months (at most a year if I'm being as generous as possible). If anything, its inclusion should render "Hat Goomba" allegations against Bandana Waddle Dee null & void.
Joker is just Sheik with and temporary Ganondorf stand and embodies the Lucario schtick of getting rewarded for getting your butt kicked.
I... disagree. joker is not similar to luigi at all. Sure arsene is annoying and he's a bit overtuned, but its not bad design, hes just a good character.
His comeback mechanic is more balanced than most of the dlc and the counterplay is interactive
@@Alibaba-id1cs People simply hate it when Joker uses Arsene well despite it actually not being unfair at all.
All the Marth clones to me highlight how, for the most part, Fire Emblem characters have been designed in ways that don't do their games any justice and are just plain lazy, and I think it's embarrassing how similar they all are
Absolutely would be curious to here your thoughts on the best characters in the game.
I really don't think Samus should be on this list. Yes, a lot of main characters from big franchises like Samus, Link, Mario, ... have had a lot of move set variations over the years, to the point of changing drastically in the case of Link, but that doesn't mean that the Smash move set is unfaithful or badly designed. Samus's move set still perfectly captures the core tried and true moves she is known for, from the missiles, to the morpho ball and bombs, to the charge shot, to the plasma whip, all of the most iconic moves the character still uses in Dread and prime 4 are in Smash.
I'd also argue the same thing for Link, even if breath of the wild Link has a different move set, the fact that the bombs, bow and arrows, spin attack, boomrang and bombs has still followed Link for 30 years before breath of the wild got rid of the last two really speak to how iconic and true to Link's 38 years of history his smash move set still is.
And as move sets in a platform fighters, they are still versatile, well working and strongly defined move sets, and create relatively healthy and popular characters, which is all we should know to see they are well above average when it comes to character design.
I think the complaint is more justified for DK and Kirby, as their specials severely lack identity and not having barrels for DK feels like a criminal omission as it's almost synonymous with the franchise, it's like having link without a master sword or mario without fire balls. Honestly it's really all he needs, as the Diddy kong already references the rest of the iconic parts of the franchise quite well, but DK could definitely get his up b changed to a barrel throw on the ground and a barrel launch in the air, and getting rid of his stupid headbutt that references nothing and is very lame.
Kirby fairs a bit better, at least his moveset is still moves that are staples of the Kirby franchise, but they are very boring and it doesn't help that his sword or hammer have already been developed much better in Dedede and Meta knight's move sets. Rock while it's iconic also really doesn't deserve to take a special move slot when it's really a glorified down air.
I’m betting $1000 that either min min or Steve is on this list
@@King90983 SPOILERS
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I know he has fans outside of the competitive scene, but Kazuya needs to go when Smash 6 rolls around. He feels like the epitome of 'the fighting game guy' even more than Ryu does, and he just isn't fun to watch in competitive matches since he's so oppressive but also so predictable.
He just needs his "tradfighter" aspects toned way down IMO.
Either nerf him or give us heihachi
@@antoniacorrales9148as a tekken player heihachi would be infinity worse for smash
For as much fun I've had with the series since 64, the one thing I really hate is the fact that many characters' movesets are still based on the ones they had since 64 or melee, they were never reworked. It's honestly a shame.
For Banjo-Kazooie, they are a bit of a mixed bag, and this is coming from someone who requested them and play as them. There are some moves that make sense, and others that don't. For instance, why isn't the Pack Whack Banjo's Down Smash? The Ratatat Rap could've worked as both a F-Air and B-Air. The Beak Bomb could've been an excellent Side B, with WonderWing as a Down B counter, as least that how I would envision them.
Wait a minute Banjo with a Down B Counter that activates the Wonderwing? I’m just curious because Down B Counters have become lazy ways of designing characters heck not even Sora could escape the Down B Counter curse.
I wish they'd re-add the moveset options from Smash 4, but re-work it so it can be used in competitive. The issue is that Sakurai stated once a character is in a Smash game, their movesets can't be reworked in any major way. It's why Ganondorf gets about one change to his moveset per game. It's also why Sonic has mostly just cloned moves and spin dash, despite having 2 fighting games to work off of.
I'd honestly re-work the whole system so it's more like 4, but the alt moves aren't something you have to unlock or banned from competitive. I'd also rework some older/rushed Smash characters from the ground up (Sonic, Samus, Ganondorf, Kirby ect...). Finally, add their old moves from Smash 1-U as alts so if you don't like a newer move, you can always swap back. That way they retain their classic movesets without holding them back at the same time.
I don't hate it, but also you have to be comically careful with how you implement that. The only reason people don't hate the Miis more than they already do is because most of them aren't great. Brawler is the only one I ever see competitively.
But yeah, atleast regaining older moves could be interesting.
Where's Olimar, broski?
All this blud does his run away and throw pikmin, fishing for purples to win games with no one wanting to play as or against him, completely unfaithful to his portrayal in the Pikmin franchise. And then spams smash attacks because of course he can.
And why does a feeble and tiny character like Olimar get a frame 2 super armor move he can spam to get out of a jam? Just why is that a thing.
And about Left Splits Kick-- The zoners that should be afraid of this move usually have control over their projectiles or can easily dodge the reflected projectiles since it's a committal, grounded reflector on a non-special move. That kind of design does not work for Ness and Lucas for example, where they don't have time to pull it off and get rewarded for as they have magnets instead. And Min Min's Up Smash being a reflector isn't so bad when you consider the fact that it's on her main out of shield option and it's got similar problems to Left Splits Kick and the Baseball Bat swings in that they are committal (unless you're Lucas but even he doesn't use it very often.), grounded reflector moves not put onto special moves, which execute the reflector concept better since they don't have to rely on being grounded and are still fair while being commonly used from time to time. With the spacies having the best execution for them unlike Min Min, Kazuya, and the PK kids.
That of course doesn't mean the characters who have them aren't justifed of your placements. Just addressing a common complaint about Min Min's Up Smash and Kazuya's Left Splits Kick.
Okay lets be fair here. He doesnt JUST fish for purple. Also fishing for them Blue pikmin grabs..
@@sicklysweetdenouement Oh right, those Pikmin too.
“completely unfaithful to his portrayal in the Pikmin franchise”
Dude, have you EVER played a Pikmin game? Olimar has to run and throw Pikmin at opponents because he can’t fight them himself, exactly like what he does in his home series. I don’t blame for you not liking how he plays but calling his moveset unfaithful because of that is just stupid.
@@Valentinesdayghost Don't think that's the part thats unfaithful. Pikmin is an RTS. Pikmin are a resource first, to be maintained as you fight against the sun slowly fading out of sight. (I think that's the scenario, haven't played Pikmin 2 in a minute.) Each Pikmin has it's own use, needed in different scenarios to safely get through the day.
Now, in smash. You throw them with reckless abandon, and you mostly want purples. Sure, yellow range is pretty good and blue throws just kinda kill, but most of the game plan is running in circles trying to fish for the right little fella for the job (almost always purple). Frankly, I don't think Olimar should have ever been in Smash to being with, the concept itself was fairly flawed from the start.
The moveset is unfaithful because there was effectively no way to add Olimar in a way that's both fun to play/fight and really faithful to the game. Obviously this is a problem other fighters might have as well, but I don't feel it in other characters nearly as much as I see it in Olimar.
@@sicklysweetdenouement “Throw them with reckless abandon and run in circles”
No, not really. I don’t know if maybe this is just how I play Olimar but I like to scroll through my Pikmin as they come and use the whistle to cycle through what I feel is the best option in my situation. For example:
I’m at high percent against an opponent who I could easily die to? Use White to rack up the most damage from afar so it becomes harder for my opponent to confidently approach without fear of taking a big hit.
I’m at mid-range and my opponent could die to my next hit? Wait for an opening and use Blue to YEET them into the shadow realm.
I want to rack up damage at the start of the match? Toss my Blue Pikmin offstage and go to town on my opponent with Red and Yellow.
My opponent’s at ledge/offstage and I want to threaten a kill? Grab Purple or Red and BATTER UP!
Not to mention the other uses Pikmin have outside of offense, such as being able to tank a strong projectile due to higher health (Purple) or being immune to the properties of the projectile (Yellow vs Samus Charge Shot, Blue vs Corrin Dragon Fang Shot, etc.).
About Pikmin being a resource, I do think it’s a bit hard to pressure Olimar into not pulling abundant amounts of Pikmin, but they can work against him sometimes. (The extended hitbox caused by an attack hitting a Pikmin, then Olimar falling into the hitbox, has screwed me over a couple times lol)
I completely understand why one could see Olimar’s moveset as unfaithful because I don’t imagine it to be easy to incorporate the mechanics of an open RTS puzzle game like Pikmin into a platform fighter like Smash. I think Olimar’s moveset is perfectly faithful because it encapsulates the core mechanics of the most vital tools in his home series, even if it isn’t exactly a one-to-one transfer.
(Sorry if I came off as defensive or accusing at one point during this little rant. If you couldn’t tell already, I fucking love Oli and I don’t entirely understand why a lot of people so passionately hate him. Regardless, best wishes and I hope you didn’t take anything too personally.)
I’d 100% be interested to see your take on the best-designed fighters! Your analysis here was quite comprehensive, I think, so yes please do that👍🏻
as a player thats been playing since 64 i think that respecting the continuity of some movements is really nice
I'd argue with Yoshi being poorly aged as someone who mained him in every game. In his home games, his tongue is one of his most unique gameplay aspects where there are a number of things you can do with it (make and collect eggs, hold in and move around, reach certain platforms, eat certain projectiles) but in Smash it's his most umderbaked feature. If they gave more options with Egg Lay and maybe even a zair, it'd capture his games a lot better.
Giving Yoshi a zair feels like the most obvious thing, I wonder how they managed to miss that.
I don't think he's poorly aged per say, I think most of his kit works and he's clearly meant as a simpler character, but the lack of a zair and the fact he can't eat projectiles/items with neutral B are both really glaring and he should definitely get both.
Other than that, not sure how you could include stuff like egg collecting without making it overtly complicated for a character like him. I feel him laying his opponent as a egg for Neutral B and throwing eggs in up B covers those bases well enough. Something I'm surprised you didn't mention tho is his Side B. No character should have a filler move that's completely useless like that, it's just a dead button rn.
not that i don't think sonic couldn't get some updates. but it gets pretty frustrating always hearing the "multiple moves as a ball" criticism. there are only about 6 moves including throws that feature him attacking via his spinball form. Nair, Usmash, N special, S special, D special, and D throw. a vast majority of his attacks are punches, kicks, or some other method of attacking. plus his spinball is his primary way of attacking throughout most of the games. complaining that Sonic has multiple moves attacking as a ball is like complaining that a character like Link has multiple moves attacking with a sword. of course he shouldn't have spindash take up two move slots, but to conflate that to "too many ball moves in general" is frustrating.
I agree that argument never made sense to me
Doesn’t really change anything. Also note that 2 of his specials are the exact same move literally copied and pasted. Sonic’s used so many abilities over his 30+ years of being a gaming icon yet nothing from his modern games are used
Those were only really his primary ways of attacking in his classic games
@@Right_Bumperthe problem with Sonics abilities is that they are not consistent. He constantly changes his moveset. His most consistent moves are Spin Dash, the Homing Attack and the Boost, 2 of which are in his Smash moveset. How much of Sonic Frontiers abbilities will come back, so you can put into Smash without it becoming outdated the next game.
Mario has the problem of outdated moves with Fludd and Cape, but that won't be fixed by adding Cappy, since I am pretty sure Cappy won't return in the next 3d Mario.
@@LG555 They barely added Cappy, he's in like 2 animations and you can barely see him in one of them
@@Right_Bumper I meant, in how some people add him into Mario's moveset.
I personally don’t think Little Mac is that bad. Sure, it’s a mashup of extremes and they could definitely stand to use Star Punch instead of KO. But I think the design lines up with his home series. He’s all about fancy footwork, waiting for an opening, then hitting as fast and hard as possible against physically superior opponents. His aerial mobility and attack power can be buffed a little if absolutely necessary. But otherwise? I say he’s perfectly fine.
But if there’s anyone who should have been in this video, it should be Dark Pit and Dark Samus. Just because they’re doppelgängers in concept, doesn’t give the devs an excuse to just make them echo fighters when they have whole arsenals to work with and set them apart from their original rivals. Pittoo had so many weapons to use for completely different side and down specials thanks to Uprising. And has Dark Samus even used missiles or bombs like the real Samus? Phazon gave the Metroid Prime so much potential to work with, and the devs just through it all down the toilet.
You know, what Dark Pit and Samus would be, if they were not Echo Fighter?
NOT IN SMASH! How is that still a concept people are missing?
yeah, big agree with LG555 on that. The whole argument against Echoes has always been incredibly dumb. They are quite literally designed to be roster filler, or flavor, or whatever. If Dark Pit vanished, it's not like we would get another full fighter in his place. That being said, I think their choice of Echo was questionable there, Dixie Kong would have been 10 times cooler.
Little Mac & Ganon could have been "balanced" maybe if items were allowed in stages. Items could be pretty cool and a way to reduce ledge camping, but you need to see the ghost of an item before it spawns, super random items like trophies & pokey balls should show which trophy/pokeball will appear before hand, the items should be nerfed (no Maximum tomato that instantly restores all health or instant kill bombs). Little Mac & Ganondorf could use the items by pushing them with their moves, and to improve their mobility (jet pack, umbrella, ballons, screwattack, place platforms like minecraft).
@@aoeu256 It would help little mac, but Ganon wouldn't get nearly as much benefit. The important thing to remember about items is that the faster characters have an easier time getting to them. I don't think Ganon can grab items mid-wizkick, so he and other characters that could potentially use items to shore up weaknesses (DeDeDe, Ridley, DK, hell even Sephiroth) are also the characters that get to use them the least.
So now this mechanic that would supposedly help slower characters, instead only consistently helps faster ones. It's just by random chance that a slower character would get the chance to use it.
(Now that I type it out, this sounds eerily familiar to TF2 Random Crits. Huh.)
Eh, I feel like when I play Little Mac, I usually just unga bunga super-armour FSmash.
11:16 imagine shoe-horning in a character by putting him over an existing character, and then nobody playing him because he's so badly designed.
Everyone always talks about the worst characters design wise but hearing about the best designed ones would be refreshing
I still compare Hero's random bullcrap to the Random Crit system in TF2 because you either never get an advantage of you somehow get lucky every time
While Hero isn't the most well designed character competitively. From my personal experience with my group of friends, he's very well designed on the Fun side of things.
Woof. Theres alot to unpack here. Good video, feel like someone needs to counter point some of this!
Quick opinions:
-Everyone in the bad execution section is just a numbers problem and has nothing to do with actual design, just tunning, it may also apply to Dr. Mario, not completely sure wich posture to take.
-Poorly aged is not an actual problem, as much as I understand why people have a problem with the situation.
-Banjo is pefectly fine, is just people´s problem is that they had shapeless expectations it didn´t fulfill.
-No problem with the take about Zelda, it just looks weird in the final graphic out of context.
Honestly, I really like how Sephiroth is designed. He still has that DLC character comeback mechanic with the wing, but it feels like devs took actual care to make sure he isn't overpowered. I like that him being a glass cannon with awkward hitboxes on his moves forces you to play patiently. Again, it feels like very deliberate choices factored into his design, that I don't think I could justify calling him one of Ultimate's worst designed characters.
All they have to do to fix Ganon’s design is to make black shadow an echo of falcon so he can inherit the current moveset with tweaks.
And then for Ganon himself, using attacks/techniques from his boss fights and incorporating that in his moveset. (Floating, weaponry, reflecting/casting projectiles.)
L on Hero and Sephiroth takes
They’re some of the most fun characters in the game.
sephiroth sure, but heros language barrier is a big deal. How can you fight him if you cant read his menu? I'd make it so the spells are colour coded and have some kind of icon next to it so everybody can understand. Other than that though? Yeah he's pretty fun.
@@AndreBabani Honestly, color coding would help everybody, even if you can read the menus. Having an extra signal to my brain screaming "Don't hit that button, thats Kamikaze!" would be rather helpful in not accidentally exploding.
So you enjoy snapping? Ok
As a Ridley main, I feel like he deserved better. Either make him heavier, switch his down B to something practical, or decrease the delay and end lag on his side B. And the majority of the DLC’s only made him less viable. I hope they do him justice next game.
I honestly rather think of the characters representing themselves at foremost then their source material representation next as higher priority than competitive viability.
I'm one of those people that makes me feel like Sephiroth is an actual threat on the battlefield for how well he portrays his dread when fighting him in the remakes or the KH2 superboss (He's honestly more of a pushover in the original game, but presence makes up for that) and I think Hero's generic normals are ironically fitting considering he's the blank slate protagonist you're to project into. King K. Rool despite being really low tier according to the wiki is honestly the peak culmination of his ventures and even the generic animal sounds can't change that. And even Steve's game plan of set up focus and traps I do think genuinely make him a near-perfect representation of what Minecraft embodies. You're SUPPOSED to make plans for what the match or night entails and I think that aspect, despite being a bane, is honestly vital to Steve's feel in the game. And imma be real Steve's Kirby hat is easily the best one, I think some of us can agree there. Hell I'll even live and die on the hill that Jigglypuff, despite people wanting her out, is honestly the best joke character. Sure her time in the spotlight in the anime may be gone, but she's still honestly hilarious for how more random of a character choice she was and that cute randomness combined with being a Pokemon makes her come off as a funny thrown in bonus in the roster rather than a nuisance.
That said I don't think all characters are perfect though. My weakest designed character is Olimar and I never felt like playing him mainly due to lacking voice clips (Making him feel not like a beloved leader at a cost) for 3 games in a row and the Pikmin cap still remains at 3 when Brawl had 5, Sonic I no doubt agree has got to get an overhauled moveset to represent his many powers like the projectile kicks from Frontiers (Though keep the down-B as a Spin Dash since it makes sense), and Daisy really needs a new kit to get out of Echo status since while it makes sense, she's got more to her kit than just Peach's moves; we can pull stuff out of Wonder and the sports games mainly to distinguish them.
All right, that's my takeaway from this video. I do get the opinion of competitive viability, but I don't prioritize that honestly.
If it were up to me to redesign Min Min (as someone who plays both games), I'd give her arms health to discourage spam (like belly armor, except with much less total health that regenerates over time), nerf their BASE damage/knockback (as well as give them damage falloff for long-range hits), and change down-B to a move that charges the arms instead of switching between them. The real challenge of fighting in the original game is keeping your arms charged to boost their damage and elemental effects, and getting into positions that are safe enough that you can charge your arms and dodge punches but still close enough that you can land a hit. A good design for Min Min should play more like a boxer character and less like a zoner.
You could still keep in the swapping arms mechanic if you really want, but I would map it to shield-B instead of down-B (If you want to be really unique, make it depend on which way she's facing to switch either of her arms), or I'd make it a special input at the very start of a stock.
Imo Maypul in Rivals of Aether is exactly what Sonic should be. Fast, will combo you back and forth, and generally built around chasing opponents down.
Honestly surprised Ness isn’t on this list. Given that about 3 of his moves are things that he actually does in his home series, combined with the fact that his moveset ends up being extremely Campy and Spammy *cough cough* PK Fire.
I’d understand if he was supposed to represent his entire Earthbound party, but the fact that his party members now actively appear and contribute in his final smash it makes no sense that Ness is the one who performs the special moves, despite not doing most of them in Earthbound.
Given that in modern smash we have quite a few more characters who represent RPG Magic Users (Hero, Robin, etc) it feels like an ample opportunity to edit Ness’ Moveset to better fit his RPG Archetype, as a more Tanky Support characters who’s better adept in inflicting Status Conditions and setting up Healing and Shields.
I have to disagree heavily on the characters whose movesets don't reflect the way the character has aged.
I understand the sentiment that fans of the games want to play a character who reflects their more modern concepts, but people who play fighting games from sequel to sequel usually don't like it when their character gets completely changed between releases. If the moveset works, then there's no reason to change it simply because the character in the games has gone a different direction. If something about the character doesn't work it could be updated but I feel like players would rather the move get buffed to be useable instead of replaced.
I would probably add Shiek. A combo charakter who can`t make combos because of ingame mechanics or gimmicks of his opponents. Like Rage don`t help her, the oppenent can be to heavy, can be to floaty, can have an instant super armor double jump >.> . And everytime she trade its just a loss for the Shiek Player.
Yeah I know a combo charakter is hard to balance and there are some incredible Shiek Players. But still she feels kinda akward for me.
If Mac is known for two things, it’s punching and dodging, so I think if his ground attacks were toned down a touch, he should have a really good airdodge.
It's a fun hypothetical to imagine what moves legacy Smash characters would have if they had debuted in ultimate. Diddy gets his peanut guns and his jetpack from DK64; Where's DKs Coconut Gun, Nintendo?
Oh top of Samus being left behind design-wise. Dark Samus doubles down by being such a total clone that she has NONE of her own special abilities
I bet Sonic is barely going to change in Smash 6, mainly due to the fact that mods and fangames (examples include Project + and SSF2) are the ones reworking Sonic's moveset to be more healthy for the game. Considering Nintendo's despise for mods, they will probably (if they haven't already) shy away from the things that could make him a much more welcoming character to the cast.
As a G&W main, I was so close to getting out of this video unscathed. Fair points tho