What an awesome, informative video. Keenan, the information content your videos have is incredible. You are a true inspiration to those of us that still work on our own scooters. Thanks so much!
I owned two shovels, one Evo and one Twin cam. My favorite has to be the Evo. One tough engine. Wish HD would have had a six speed gear box to go with it.
Hey Tatro , could you please do my evo barrels its leaking like crazy. You know your shit man you are the best bar none . You are a genius and acool guy ...
hello.I machine porsche and vw aircooled engines and the cylinders you are cutting look very similar,do you sell the special jaw arms that youre using on these cylinders?
Great glazing video and explination! So for clarity; Are you not honing to round because it doesn't matter with the Evo, or the cust doesn't want to go with larger pistons? By the vibration, that seemed a bit out. Also, how critical are measurements here. I noticed you didn't gage anything, so with the finer stones there's no fear of going too far with the technique you used? About how much comes off if any? About .001?
when you are just deglazing the bore for new rings you are not trying to fix the bore. you are just getting a clean surface for the rings to seal against. when deglazing you don't want to take out more than .001 and less is better so that the piston clearance doesn't get to loose. tatro
AWESOME 3 JAW SET UP!!! Have you ever put an "O-Ring Groove" at the base of an Evo cylinder? I wanna say "Merch" motors run an O-Ring at the bottoms of their cylinders. The addition of a "Viton" O-Ring would be nice to have and totally do away with any leaks.
the o-ring is on the head gasket surface, not the base. this is the old way of doing things. now they use mls head gaskets. the o-ring was only for oil sealing. the compression pressure was sealed by the way the cylinder and heads machined surfaces were made. no gaskets were needed. go look at my race bike and see how i don't use any head gaskets and very few other ones either. tatro
For a more rigid setup go to a block type tool post (Aloris etc...) and a larger boring bar. Could also use a bull nose center to help hold up the long end. Lots of ways to improve but if you are comfortable with what you have and it does the job.............
watch the videos, the tool holder is not the problem. the cross slide is moving all over the place. the lathe was a piece of junk when it was new and it has not gotten any better with me beating on it. tatro
What do you guys use to rejuvenate the exterior finish of the barrels making them almost look like new ... thanks (and love your videos and sharing - keep up the good work)
practice, the hand driven hones really move around so what you do to the drill motor changes what you get in the honed hole. very hard to get straight round holes. tatro
If you are deglazing a ball hone conforms better than a drill-driven hone. If you have a ridge on the top of your cylinder it's bore time. Handheld hones are for ring jobs. If you are boring then honing to size take your cylinders to someone with a Sunnen etc who knows what they are doing. Since none of the local bike shops in my area do their own machine work I bought torque plates, brought my cylinders to my race car engine builder bro along with my factory shop manual (get one if you don't have one, and get the factory parts book too), had him measure using a dial bore gauge then tell me which oversize piston kit to order. I handed him the parts and he did the work. That method makes it easy for car machinists to do motorcycle cylinders. General rule of thumb is it takes boring at least.020" oversize to remove cylinder taper, but don't guess because assumption is the mother of all fuckups! If you have no good local machinists and/or don't plan on doing enough cylinders to justify buying torque plates but need to bore you can ship the jugs off to a competent machinist. Postage is cheaper than ruining parts.
Hi Thanks for that. Always good to see how it's done by someone who knows what they are doing. Just one question, why do you leave the wrist pins loose in the piston? I always thought that they spun on the small end and not the piston? Best Wishes Jahmahrah
every motor made has floating pins in the pistons. some motors use tight pins in the rods to hold the pistons on. you always want loose parts for highperformace motors or things will fail real quickly. tatro
mostly a bunch of old wornout machines and tooling but i do know how to make them all work and make good parts. my fastest record was around 185mph on a 90ci evo sportster with some nitro. i use to mostly run around 150mph, give or take a couple of mph. tatro
Is it possible to use or make a thicker cylinder base gasket and head gasket? Hindsight being 20:20 more involved but it might help if its practical, to pre- tig weld a thin bead of material to the cylinder base at the low (leaky) points. If it welds without gassing (no porosity)it could minimize the amount of substrate removal necessary to true (square off) the base to case mating surface. I got so frustrated I literally worked out a design to incorporate an o ring groove between the case and jug but couldn’t decide where the ideal placement would be, or weather or not to use a lip seal groove around the case bore so the lip sat firmly against the outside of the cyl.sleeve, and four pressed in hollow tube dowel inserts with close tolerance indexing -and chemical proof o rings or seals around the dowel tube and a groove or land at the dowel-indexing hole,. Worried that the dowels might cause stress fissures during cylinder expansion and contraction and engine vibration, (could make em out of teflon coated tubing
wow, way too much engineering going on for a harley. just slap some goop on it and call it done. don't over think it too much. keep it simple usually works best. welding non-cast aluminum looses all heat treaty and is way too hard to get back to be practical. that is why i just weld if i want to make something different. no welding on built aluminum is best. keep thinking. tatro
Tatro Machine right on, there is a method to weld without losing the metal’s structure, but it’s probably too involved to be practical, machining a cutting until true then matching up to the thickness of stock material plate, and cut out a spacer. Keep the jugs even. Sounds complex but it’s fairly simple , like cutting a gasket, and punching out bolt holes. Raises a question, what’s the tolerance between the cylinder sleeve O.D. and the case bore I.D.? I can’t seem to find any specs ( internet sucks keeps sending me to Mitsubishi forums )
hello from france tatro , how can I fix my cylinders on a lap with three bits? thank you for your videos I’ve been following you since the beginning, you so learned. too bad all your videos are not translated into French, because nobody shares his knowledge on harley. it seems to them that it is secret, that it is a pity. good continuation tatro .
is it overheating that cause the base to warp ? and will a straight edge and a feeler gauge show a .002 in warpage, or do you have to do a light cut to find imperfections, after watching i can see why evo's are prone to base leaks
At least with the 'evil' motor you just lookup the different base gasket thicknesses available to restore both cylinders to 'correct' height .I spent way too much time working with Evo cylinders .It is kinda interesting to see how HD spigoted both ends of rough cast sleeve so it could be held in position for die casting. Before 2007 rule changes, 'we' could bore scrap cylinders right through to the fins and make table lamp shades. Probably only 40~50 ever done. Wish I'd kept a few,, got to be some 'hipsters'' out there who would pay too much ;o) Torque plates do make a difference on the thin-wall stuff. You can feel where the studs are when honing stones hit them. Need to have torque plates made though, 1-1/2" steel plate and 90~ 110ft/lb, Measurable 'picket fence' pattern with plates removed.(0.0002"~0.0003") I've only done to1340 Evo's though
the only problem with all this is that you get the same wear patterns whether you use the torque plates or not. the warped cylinders do not repeat so there is no way to fix these thin ass cylinders. the design sucks. go back to the good strong cast iron cylinders and all is good. the only good evo or twincam cylinders is the 1/2" thick evo 883 cylinders. the cast iron sleeves are so thick that they act just like real cylinders instead of tin cans. tatro
Are there different thickness base gaskets available from anyone so you can make up the difference when having to cut down the size of the cylinders (either on the head surface or base surface)? Or, if one cylinder needed a lot of cutting, to make two cylinders equal in length from the base gasket surface of the cases to the top of the cylinder?
a few thousands one way or the other really doesn't matter that much. cometic and james do have different thickness of gaskets to choose from for your application. the cyl and gasket are worth twice what the head cut is. that means you have to cut trice a much on the head to equal one of the other. for this job he wanted more compression as will as clean up the surfaces. as i recall, i only cut about .015-.018 on all three surfaces. most shops blow .040-.050 off and think that is just right. tatro
Oh, got it. I have seen other shops take what looked like a lot off (especially on the base), but I never knew when it might need to be addressed with thicker gaskets. Thanks!
Tatro Machine , tell that to the CNC operators of the world. Machinists are extremely rare here in my part of Maine, some collect Bridgeport Mills and enormous lathes, via the local papermills, and never use them. A lifetime of experiences are in these videos.
Those old tools can make a lot of money. My pro machinist/machine builder bro has two beautiful, large WWII era American Pacemaker lathes. They make him money every month repairing and building rolls for our local tire plant and paper mill.
Авто/Мото
What an awesome, informative video. Keenan, the information content your videos have is incredible. You are a true inspiration to those of us that still work on our own scooters. Thanks so much!
Tatro the best! Thank you very much! Greetings from Russia 🇷🇺🇷🇺🇷🇺
Very cool. Thanks for a very informative video. Keep um going.
I owned two shovels, one Evo and one Twin cam. My favorite has to be the Evo. One tough engine. Wish HD would have had a six speed gear box to go with it.
Thanks for sharing
Hey Tatro , could you please do my evo barrels its leaking like crazy. You know your shit man you are the best bar none . You are a genius and acool guy ...
You don't use torque plates when boring/honing evo cylinders?
Dig your videos! Thanks 👍🏽
hello.I machine porsche and vw aircooled engines and the cylinders you are cutting look very similar,do you sell the special jaw arms that youre using on these cylinders?
Excellent
Great glazing video and explination! So for clarity; Are you not honing to round because it doesn't matter with the Evo, or the cust doesn't want to go with larger pistons? By the vibration, that seemed a bit out. Also, how critical are measurements here. I noticed you didn't gage anything, so with the finer stones there's no fear of going too far with the technique you used? About how much comes off if any? About .001?
when you are just deglazing the bore for new rings you are not trying to fix the bore. you are just getting a clean surface for the rings to seal against. when deglazing you don't want to take out more than .001 and less is better so that the piston clearance doesn't get to loose.
tatro
AWESOME 3 JAW SET UP!!!
Have you ever put an "O-Ring Groove" at the base of an Evo cylinder? I wanna say "Merch" motors run an O-Ring at the bottoms of their cylinders. The addition of a "Viton" O-Ring would be nice to have and totally do away with any leaks.
the o-ring is on the head gasket surface, not the base. this is the old way of doing things. now they use mls head gaskets.
the o-ring was only for oil sealing. the compression pressure was sealed by the way the cylinder and heads machined surfaces were made. no gaskets were needed. go look at my race bike and see how i don't use any head gaskets and very few other ones either.
tatro
@@TatroMachine gotta see that race bike,,,,What are some episode numbers where I can see it all.......
For a more rigid setup go to a block type tool post (Aloris etc...) and a larger boring bar. Could also use a bull nose center to help hold up the long end. Lots of ways to improve but if you are comfortable with what you have and it does the job.............
watch the videos, the tool holder is not the problem. the cross slide is moving all over the place. the lathe was a piece of junk when it was new and it has not gotten any better with me beating on it.
tatro
What do you guys use to rejuvenate the exterior finish of the barrels making them almost look like new ... thanks (and love your videos and sharing - keep up the good work)
just clean the crap off of them. try dish soap and warm water.
tatro
A clean outside cylinder dosen make you go faster so who cares :p
@@crystalstanborough4053 naah.. your mom does that..
Can't afford the hone right now, but I did get a drill driven mandrel that takes Sunnen stones. Any tips you want to pass along using one of them?
practice, the hand driven hones really move around so what you do to the drill motor changes what you get in the honed hole. very hard to get straight round holes.
tatro
If you are deglazing a ball hone conforms better than a drill-driven hone. If you have a ridge on the top of your cylinder it's bore time. Handheld hones are for ring jobs.
If you are boring then honing to size take your cylinders to someone with a Sunnen etc who knows what they are doing. Since none of the local bike shops in my area do their own machine work I bought torque plates, brought my cylinders to my race car engine builder bro along with my factory shop manual (get one if you don't have one, and get the factory parts book too), had him measure using a dial bore gauge then tell me which oversize piston kit to order. I handed him the parts and he did the work. That method makes it easy for car machinists to do motorcycle cylinders.
General rule of thumb is it takes boring at least.020" oversize to remove cylinder taper, but don't guess because assumption is the mother of all fuckups! If you have no good local machinists and/or don't plan on doing enough cylinders to justify buying torque plates but need to bore you can ship the jugs off to a competent machinist. Postage is cheaper than ruining parts.
Hi Thanks for that. Always good to see how it's done by someone who knows what they are doing. Just one question, why do you leave the wrist pins loose in the piston? I always thought that they spun on the small end and not the piston? Best Wishes Jahmahrah
every motor made has floating pins in the pistons. some motors use tight pins in the rods to hold the pistons on. you always want loose parts for highperformace motors or things will fail real quickly.
tatro
Ooo buen metal mecánico eres
Man it sure must be nice having all your specialized machining tools What's the fastest speed you've gone on a bike?
mostly a bunch of old wornout machines and tooling but i do know how to make them all work and make good parts.
my fastest record was around 185mph on a 90ci evo sportster with some nitro. i use to mostly run around 150mph, give or take a couple of mph.
tatro
Wow guy is awesome
Is it possible to use or make a thicker cylinder base gasket and head gasket?
Hindsight being 20:20 more involved but it might help if its practical, to pre- tig weld a thin bead of material to the cylinder base at the low (leaky) points. If it welds without gassing (no porosity)it could minimize the amount of substrate removal necessary to true (square off) the base to case mating surface.
I got so frustrated I literally worked out a design to incorporate an o ring groove between the case and jug but couldn’t decide where the ideal placement would be, or weather or not to use a lip seal groove around the case bore so the lip sat firmly against the outside of the cyl.sleeve, and four pressed in hollow tube dowel inserts with close tolerance indexing -and chemical proof o rings or seals around the dowel tube and a groove or land at the dowel-indexing hole,. Worried that the dowels might cause stress fissures during cylinder expansion and contraction and engine vibration, (could make em out of teflon coated tubing
wow, way too much engineering going on for a harley. just slap some goop on it and call it done. don't over think it too much. keep it simple usually works best.
welding non-cast aluminum looses all heat treaty and is way too hard to get back to be practical. that is why i just weld if i want to make something different. no welding on built aluminum is best.
keep thinking.
tatro
Tatro Machine right on, there is a method to weld without losing the metal’s structure, but it’s probably too involved to be practical, machining a cutting until true then matching up to the thickness of stock material plate, and cut out a spacer. Keep the jugs even. Sounds complex but it’s fairly simple , like cutting a gasket, and punching out bolt holes.
Raises a question, what’s the tolerance between the cylinder sleeve O.D. and the case bore I.D.? I can’t seem to find any specs ( internet sucks keeps sending me to Mitsubishi forums )
hello from france tatro ,
how can I fix my cylinders
on a lap with three bits?
thank you for your videos I’ve been following you since the beginning, you
so learned.
too bad all your videos are not translated into French,
because nobody shares his knowledge on harley.
it seems to them that it is secret, that it is a pity.
good continuation tatro .
is it overheating that cause the base to warp ? and will a straight edge and a feeler gauge show a .002 in warpage, or do you have to do a light cut to find imperfections, after watching i can see why evo's are prone to base leaks
the lathe shows around the whole cylinder so you see all the warpage and unevenness. with a straight edge you can only see the one side.
tatro
Is there anything you can do about the cylinder wear? Check wrist pin thickness or is it inevitable?
cast iron cylinders and good oil.
tatro
At least with the 'evil' motor you just lookup the different base gasket thicknesses available to restore both cylinders to 'correct' height .I spent way too much time working with Evo cylinders .It is kinda interesting to see how HD spigoted both ends of rough cast sleeve so it could be held in position for die casting. Before 2007 rule changes, 'we' could bore scrap cylinders right through to the fins and make table lamp shades. Probably only 40~50 ever done. Wish I'd kept a few,, got to be some 'hipsters'' out there who would pay too much ;o) Torque plates do make a difference on the thin-wall stuff. You can feel where the studs are when honing stones hit them. Need to have torque plates made though, 1-1/2" steel plate and 90~ 110ft/lb, Measurable 'picket fence' pattern with plates removed.(0.0002"~0.0003") I've only done to1340 Evo's though
the only problem with all this is that you get the same wear patterns whether you use the torque plates or not. the warped cylinders do not repeat so there is no way to fix these thin ass cylinders. the design sucks. go back to the good strong cast iron cylinders and all is good. the only good evo or twincam cylinders is the 1/2" thick evo 883 cylinders. the cast iron sleeves are so thick that they act just like real cylinders instead of tin cans.
tatro
@@TatroMachine were do I get a set of these extended jaws for turning the cylinders, Ive been looking every were, and by the way nice lob
Are there different thickness base gaskets available from anyone so you can make up the difference when having to cut down the size of the cylinders (either on the head surface or base surface)? Or, if one cylinder needed a lot of cutting, to make two cylinders equal in length from the base gasket surface of the cases to the top of the cylinder?
a few thousands one way or the other really doesn't matter that much. cometic and james do have different thickness of gaskets to choose from for your application. the cyl and gasket are worth twice what the head cut is. that means you have to cut trice a much on the head to equal one of the other.
for this job he wanted more compression as will as clean up the surfaces. as i recall, i only cut about .015-.018 on all three surfaces. most shops blow .040-.050 off and think that is just right.
tatro
Oh, got it. I have seen other shops take what looked like a lot off (especially on the base), but I never knew when it might need to be addressed with thicker gaskets. Thanks!
Where do they sell those sleeve lathe jaws ? Could have used them on a Deutz awhile back. Enjoy your video's !
contact abs products. they made the jas and i remachined them for my application. they were made to hold cylinder sleeves.
tatro
whats the part number of that cylinder hone attachment?
you are going to have too time stamp the video if you want that one answered. i can not read minds.
tatro
@@TatroMachine Around 26:35.
A lantern style tool post---the most reviled yet, here it is, being used to obtain the desired results.
old crappy tools still get the job done if you know how to use them.
tatro
Tatro Machine , tell that to the CNC operators of the world. Machinists are extremely rare here in my part of Maine, some collect Bridgeport Mills and enormous lathes, via the local papermills, and never use them. A lifetime of experiences are in these videos.
unless that cnc operator can sharpen a carbide endmill and reset it back into the mill he is just an operator and not a machinist.
tatro
Those old tools can make a lot of money. My pro machinist/machine builder bro has two beautiful, large WWII era American Pacemaker lathes. They make him money every month repairing and building rolls for our local tire plant and paper mill.
@@astr0creep6x6x6 your right theres not shit for guys to build hi hp shit here in Maine
Good face nice
I m praud to b indian
Nobody cares 😂
You mixed up the wrist pins, number 1. Number 2 when hot, there will be too much clearance in the piston IMO.
oh crap, its the end of the world.
tatro
@@TatroMachine Hahahahahaaa
Bet your shoulder joints have a plenty of bone spurs.
Por coliti work I'm Indian and I have a vartical honing machine sorry but that's true