I agree you get really tired of filling rings long before you finish. My strategy is do 4 pistons one night and come back another night and start fresh. Thanks Andy, once again the videos are great!
Just watched Derek at VGG do a Video on this Same subject But I found This Video to be More helpful to me. Like the way you break it down & simplify things. Keep up the good work buddy
Mike, hey thanks for coming along on the journey! My old '71 CASPER will be getting project MIXED UP BOSS as soon as we dyno it on the engine dyno! Thanks again, Andy
Another situation I often encounter in my shop is that if a block is honed without a torque plate which leaves you with round holes and you check end gap like this video shows you think you have done it correctly . It is correct UNTIL you bolt the cylinder head on and it distorts the top of the bore. The head bolt/stud distortion creates bulges in the clyinder simulating a smaller bore which decreases end gap in the top half of the bore, which causes galling/scoring. It also causes the rings to turn into an accordion when the bore isn't concentric from top to bottom. Another scenario i occasionally see is is that the piston ring may the correct thickness for the ring land in the piston BUT the ring is too wide for the depth of the ring land in the piston , not allowing the ring to fully compress , which typically results in failure.
Yea I've taken engines apart where you could see the bore worn in the area where the stud clamps down. You'll see 3-4 of em , or however many studs are close to the cylinder. Everyone says "no way" until they have to see it for themselves.
Do you need to file the lip that the filer makes on the ring every time before checking it in the bore? Or just after you get the correct gap? Can you do a video using a dial indicator and a electric ring filer powered with a drill like Summits.
I feel that you missed a major point , which is overlooked by most builders!! If that block was honed with a torque plate the ring end gap needs to also be checked with the torque plate installed. When the torque plate is removed the cylinder is no longer round, especially in the first 2-3 inches of bore , which is the zone where most people gap rings . If the block was honed with a torque plate (the average person isn't going to have the torque plate the machine shop used) you need to check your bores with a dial bore gauge and work your way down the cylinder till you reach a point where the bore is round(out the head bolt deformation zone) and check your gap at that point. .002-.004 bore distortion (change in bore size) affects ring gap more than you may think. Certain blocks are more prone to distortion due to head bolt location/distance from the bore. You can test this theory by checking end gap 1" down the bore and also at the bottom of the cylinder and compare results. If anyone tries to compress the ring and grind both sides simultaneously your end gaps will only be square with each other if your desired end gap is the same as the width of the cutting wheel . When this method is used what you will typically see is a triangular shaped end gap when the ring is placed in the bore! The average person also doesn't realize how important it is to place the ring squarely in the bore. If the ring is tilted in the bore your end gap measurement is totally erroneous. I also wouldn't recommend a needle file for deburring. A file can be too coarse and chip the ring coating. I would recommend a fine lapping stone , or diamond lap or even 1200-1500 grit wet or dry sandpaper tightly wrapped around a file for deburring to prevent chipping which sometimes requires viewing under magnification to see.
Thanks for your input, I understand what you are saying and I think it holds merit.. but the fact is 99% of people don't have access to a torque plate and they do it this way... I will say that I have seen myself one time years back where the groove in the piston wasn't cut deep enough to allow the ring to fully collapse and I had a talk with the piston manufacturer and they made it right! I have built engines making well over 1000 and never had any issues doing it this way.. Thanks for watching, Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage I started working on a video that explains cylinder distortion and how it affects ring end gap and piston clearance. You don't need a torque plate if you check the end gap lower in the cylinder . Attention to details are what separate winners from losers.
Good video!! I’m impressed with your 96 4.6L mustang in your Holley carb video ( with the 950 Holley carb)that you did, I was very impressed with how well the car ran. Is it possible to use total seal rings amd not have to worry about ring gap?
A wise diesel man once told me that he usually sees the cummins 12 valve engine go 500,000 to 800,000 miles.... But he showed me tear down with almost 700k on the engine..... 2 of the 6 cylinders were scored bad the others looked perfect.....the reason is because carbon builds up around the ring and even behind the ring....causing the ring to be shimmed hard against the cylinder wall as well as out of center.... He said if guys would just run a quart of Marvel mystery oil every tank of gas which costs 3.00-4.00 the carbon would be eliminated and the engines will go 1.2 million miles until bearings, rings other things were really wore out
i have to disagree with the factory ring gaps being square. i have rarely seen them square. i file one end square and then the other, then measure the gap and adjust it from there. there's a difference in power with square ring gaps.
I agree you get really tired of filling rings long before you finish. My strategy is do 4 pistons one night and come back another night and start fresh. Thanks Andy, once again the videos are great!
Absolutely the best video I've watched for ring gap for performance. THANK YOU SIR
No Thank you for watching!
Andy
Just watched Derek at VGG do a Video on this Same subject But I found This Video to be More helpful to me. Like the way you break it down & simplify things. Keep up the good work buddy
Thanks for the kind words.. I just want people to get some knowledge that will save them headaches down the road...
Andy
Great info for aspiring engine builders.
Thank you for the kind words... My hope is for kids today too want to learn about engines and how to make power!
Andy
Great idea on grinding only one end of the ring. Half as many edges to deburr, and it helps keep everything nice and parallel.
That's exactly right Cobranut, Thanks for Watching
Andy
Nice to see the dent side in the background, I to own one. Can’t wait to learn a lot more from this channel. Greatly appreciated
Mike, hey thanks for coming along on the journey! My old '71 CASPER will be getting project MIXED UP BOSS as soon as we dyno it on the engine dyno!
Thanks again,
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage ahhh it’s a bump side... right on
Another situation I often encounter in my shop is that if a block is honed without a torque plate which leaves you with round holes and you check end gap like this video shows you think you have done it correctly . It is correct UNTIL you bolt the cylinder head on and it distorts the top of the bore. The head bolt/stud distortion creates bulges in the clyinder simulating a smaller bore which decreases end gap in the top half of the bore, which causes galling/scoring. It also causes the rings to turn into an accordion when the bore isn't concentric from top to bottom.
Another scenario i occasionally see is is that the piston ring may the correct thickness for the ring land in the piston BUT the ring is too wide for the depth of the ring land in the piston , not allowing the ring to fully compress , which typically results in failure.
Yea I've taken engines apart where you could see the bore worn in the area where the stud clamps down.
You'll see 3-4 of em , or however many studs are close to the cylinder.
Everyone says "no way" until they have to see it for themselves.
I've seen it too.. it depends on the design of the block and castings.. Not all brands are created equal in this regard!
Andy
So what is the home builder supposed to do?
You done a good job of explaining this. I have the same set up. It’s old but it works so why change.
Thanks Timmy, my Dad always said if it's not broke...Don't try to fix it! Thanks for Watching
Andy
Another good video with great info.
Thanks man.
Great video for beginners. Great as a refresher course too.
Great video man! you hit all the points right on the head.
Thanks Moparnut62, I just hope people can find these videos a bit helpful when they are building their engines..
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage Oh yes most definitely helpful you do a great job on explaining and making things understandable!
Great info . Keep up the good work 👍
Thanks, I need to get your stuff on the Channel!!
Andy
Do you need to file the lip that the filer makes on the ring every time before checking it in the bore? Or just after you get the correct gap? Can you do a video using a dial indicator and a electric ring filer powered with a drill like Summits.
Thanks for the video.How do you file the oil control rings
I feel that you missed a major point , which is overlooked by most builders!! If that block was honed with a torque plate the ring end gap needs to also be checked with the torque plate installed. When the torque plate is removed the cylinder is no longer round, especially in the first 2-3 inches of bore , which is the zone where most people gap rings . If the block was honed with a torque plate (the average person isn't going to have the torque plate the machine shop used) you need to check your bores with a dial bore gauge and work your way down the cylinder till you reach a point where the bore is round(out the head bolt deformation zone) and check your gap at that point. .002-.004 bore distortion (change in bore size) affects ring gap more than you may think. Certain blocks are more prone to distortion due to head bolt location/distance from the bore. You can test this theory by checking end gap 1" down the bore and also at the bottom of the cylinder and compare results.
If anyone tries to compress the ring and grind both sides simultaneously your end gaps will only be square with each other if your desired end gap is the same as the width of the cutting wheel . When this method is used what you will typically see is a triangular shaped end gap when the ring is placed in the bore! The average person also doesn't realize how important it is to place the ring squarely in the bore. If the ring is tilted in the bore your end gap measurement is totally erroneous.
I also wouldn't recommend a needle file for deburring. A file can be too coarse and chip the ring coating. I would recommend a fine lapping stone , or diamond lap or even 1200-1500 grit wet or dry sandpaper tightly wrapped around a file for deburring to prevent chipping which sometimes requires viewing under magnification to see.
Thanks for your input, I understand what you are saying and I think it holds merit.. but the fact is 99% of people don't have access to a torque plate and they do it this way... I will say that I have seen myself one time years back where the groove in the piston wasn't cut deep enough to allow the ring to fully collapse and I had a talk with the piston manufacturer and they made it right! I have built engines making well over 1000 and never had any issues doing it this way..
Thanks for watching,
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage I started working on a video that explains cylinder distortion and how it affects ring end gap and piston clearance. You don't need a torque plate if you check the end gap lower in the cylinder . Attention to details are what separate winners from losers.
Time spent in advance is always better than time spent too late!
Boy isn't that the truth!
Good video!! I’m impressed with your 96 4.6L mustang in your Holley carb video ( with the 950 Holley carb)that you did, I was very impressed with how well the car ran. Is it possible to use total seal rings amd not have to worry about ring gap?
A wise diesel man once told me that he usually sees the cummins 12 valve engine go 500,000 to 800,000 miles....
But he showed me tear down with almost 700k on the engine.....
2 of the 6 cylinders were scored bad the others looked perfect.....the reason is because carbon builds up around the ring and even behind the ring....causing the ring to be shimmed hard against the cylinder wall as well as out of center....
He said if guys would just run a quart of Marvel mystery oil every tank of gas which costs 3.00-4.00 the carbon would be eliminated and the engines will go 1.2 million miles until bearings, rings other things were really wore out
Good stuff, Andy!
Thank you Sir!!
WILBURN.... Hope all is well in wilburn world 🌎
@@jontrudell7529 Trudell, you’re going to LOVE what I’m doing soon. It’s worth the wait.
I can't wait!
good info and tips.
Thanks for the kind words!
Andy
Does compression affect the gap? Like should 10.5 have a tighter gap then 9.5?
No... I do open up the gap a few Thousandths if the engine is High Compression 12:1 or higher...
Great video!!
Keep your KD ring filer safe. Years later I found that somehow the filing disc got wobbled! I should have made a wood box for it.
Yeah I've replaced the disc on that grinder MANY times over the years..
Andy
I'm glad you are telling people this
65 year old engine builder
the smallest part can f$#k you
But that's how I made MY money
Same here! Thanks for Watching
Andy
i have to disagree with the factory ring gaps being square. i have rarely seen them square. i file one end square and then the other, then measure the gap and adjust it from there. there's a difference in power with square ring gaps.
You didn’t mention that the second ring gap should be .002 bigger then the top ring gap
👍👍
Thanks gilbert, Please Subscribe as I have more good stuff coming up!
Andy
@@UnityMotorSportsGarage I am a subscriber, you have content that the others don't talk about(the important stuff)
That noise !!!!!! I hate doing rings...
It's almost as bad as finger nails on a chalkboard! Thanks for Watching
Andy
A little too much gap no one will know it, not enough gap EVERYONE will know it……
That is so true! Thanks for Watching Mike
Andy