Why Oberyn DEFEATS Jaime Lannister | Game of Thrones
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- Опубликовано: 15 май 2024
- Liam returns to break down by category who's the Better Warrior out of 2 of the most fierce Warriors in Westeros, Jaime Lannister vs Oberyn Martell.
Continue the discussion with us on Discord :) / discord
00:00 Intro
01:45 Physicality
03:19 Training and Weapons Specialization
04:54 Versatility and Adaptability
07:29 Experience
09:25 Fight IQ & Cunning
13:31 Equipment
14:13 Final Verdict
• 5 more Fighters Who *C...
Who do you think Wins? Let us know in the comments below!
Review Channel - / @thefandome
And for more of Liams work check out his fantastic Audio Book the Shifterverse here - / @shifterverse 
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"Who would win in a fight between" is one of those questions we all obsess over as kids, but the truth is that it's just as much fun to think about now that we're older 😊
It sure is Jeremy! Your presence is most welcome as always! Liam
Funnily enough just yesterday I was wondering where Ragnar Lothbrok from Vikings would rank in the GoT world
@@BigPurp9very low
Thanks for the continued support Jeremy! - Thom
Ok..... Jaime is a "master" with one weapon.... Oberyn is crazy efficient with a ton of weapons....
And Jaime wins that "weapons" portion of the list? Cap. It doesn't even make sense.
Oberyn also probably has a stamina advantage. He'd have to for the kind of group activities we see him enjoying.
😂 now that is certainly true! Thanks for watching! Liam
Another aspect to this is that Oberyn hates Lannisters so much that he’s probably planned a duel against Jaime in advanced. I don’t know if they’ve ever been in the same places at the same times before GoT, but he’s probably had spies report back on Jamie’s fighting ability. Oberyn probably knows which arm (haha) Jamie favours. He probably knows what habits he has. I’m willing to relent that Jamie is a better swordsman than Oberyn is an overall warrior. But Oberyn might just be the ultimate Jamie killer. Even if he didn’t have a day to plan in advanced, he’d know enough about Jamie that he can immediately act on the knowledge and planning he’s already had.
The spear is most likely to Trump the sword.
Not most likely. It will. Having sparred vs spears a lot, a swordsman has to be several notches better than a spearman to beat them out of armor.
In terms of future Vs that aren't fights I would like to see Spymaster Vs Spymaster with Little finger Vs Varys since they have a heated rivalry and a change from brawn to brains.
Absolutely fantastic suggestion Kyle! Definitely noted! Our whose better whose worse comes in pairs. This time its whose better (fighter) Jaime vs Oberyn and whose worse (Villain) ramsey vs Gregor! But I honestly love that suggestion for the next whose better!
Oooo, that’s an intriguing twist on the idea
It may be too early to say, but I think Larys Strong could be an interesting addition to the spy versus spy game. He certainly has the creep factor of Littlefinger, and his fireflies could be his signature underlings similar to Varys' little birds. But with how nihilistic he is, it's hard to say if there's anything he won't do. Unlike Littlefinger, whose fixation with Catelyn and Sansa, and his personal fantasy of being some heroic trickster in the mold of Lann the Clever leads him to have some blind spots. While Varys clearly abhors mages and all who are taken in by prophecy and sorcery, like Stannis, closing off certain avenues of information gathering and alliances.
@@cdcdrr some pretty good points there Cdcdrr 👌 I certainly won't plagiarise them and pass them off as my own when i write the script for this one ;) Liam
ooh a triple threat match does sound fun @@cdcdrr
How much of a beast was Barristan?.. he went into a castle by himself and rescued the King in that castle. 😆 that's insane when you think about it.
Hes the god dam MAN thats for sure! 😂 Hes bloody brilliant as an old man, prime young Baristan sounds borderline underdefeatable. His nick name Barristan the Badass is well deserved! Thanks for watching gamingwiththisguy! Liam
@@shifterverse it's the medieval fantasy version of Mission Impossible level stuff by going in alone and rescuing a King. It's incredible!😆
@@thisguy8106 Whats even more astounding is that the Lannisters know about that and STILL kick him from the kings guard. He's an assassins worst nightmare 😂 "This wall around the keep isn't to protect the king from you, it's to protect you from me" -Barristan the Bold.........probably. 😂
@@shifterverse to be fair.. had Tywin or Jamie been in Kings Landing when Cersei made that stupid decision, it wouldn't have happened. The first thing Tywin complains to Tywin about is Barristan being kicked out the King's Guard.
he was... an Artist. A painter... Who only used red.
Jaime learned how to fight; Oberyn learned how to kill.
Definitely true, though I don't think Jaime slacks in the killing department 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsYou’re giving him too much credit, Jaime also learned how to kill lol
Jamie would unequivocally kill Oberyn. It’s basically objective if you have read the books.
If you wanted to make it specifically left handed jamie then, at least there is a fight to be had. However, if Illyn Payne had trained him already then it’s still a wrap for oberyn.
@@theherbitonican1857uh not too sure about that bro lol in a sword fight Jamie wins but if obyren has his spear I don’t think Jamie will stand a chance in that distance
@@wildyoda2931 Jamie would mall oberyn with his bare hands regardless of what weapon oberyn is using. Jamie is the best warrior, not just swordsman. Jamie is a dawg that no one is willing to fuck with in the books. The show did not do justice with the depth of how lethal Jamie really was. Even the first comment on this thread is ludicrous. Jamie isn’t just a fighter he is all together going to kill anyone in his way in any means or capacity.
We don't get this in the show but in the books when Oberyn stabs Gregor into the ground the tip of his spear buries into the cement and the mountain can't get up.
The burst head happens on top of the mountain facing the sky because he's still fucking nailed to the STONE ground of the outer wall
tiny detail but thats thats some fucking wild strength, there's a lotta gregor to push through even before you hit the rock beneath him
No doubt Julius, the viper isn't one to underestimate. We've got to remember that thrust was for Elia, it probably had every last ounce of Oberyns will, anger and righteous fury behind it. I'm surprised it didn't split the earth in two 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
In the book, Oberyn's spear is nine feet long. It is stated after he pins the Mountain down that four feet of spear jutted from his belly. That means that FIVE feet of spear is lodged in the ground through the Mountain.
@@desmondgentle1474 9 ft? My memory of the books must be fading 😅 lve been saying its 8ft on all our vids. 5ft of pentration into the ground thats almost super human lol
Either the spear is magic or GRR Martin is an idiot when it comes to armour and weapons. A spear would never pierce plate both front and back (Unless it hit an unarmoured spot, which should not exist, it's been years since I read the book) it would've been extremely unlikely to even pierce the front plate.
@@shifterverseAnd super woody wood shaft as well. And a diamond spearhead against valyrian rubber armour and floor
You forgot to mention that jaime considered baristen, the hound, and the mountain as his rivals, while oberyn was just toying with the mountain! So it's fair to say that obyren wins
That's a fantastic point! It's definitely a close one. I'd say without any preparation this is one of the closest match ups in the GOT verse, basically 50/50 (assuming it's not sword vs sword, Jaime will take that shit 10/10) Thanks for watching! Liam
Also no matter what i don't think Jamie could ever beat the moutain. Gregor has a reach as big as Lannister's whole body. He couldn't get close enough to land his blow. Oberyn had almost a meter of range on Gregor.
Yet, Oberyn got his skull crushed in.
Ur literally making that up. Ur referring to the show only line where he says "there are 3 men in the kingdom that might stand a chance against me." and people guess that its Clegane bros and Barristan.
First of all that's a show only line so its non canon and second of all he says "might stand a chance against me" not "that rival me".
@@maxb8749 I'm not sure if it was in this channel or another channel that they talked about who these 3 might be and they were the 3 that i mentioned, and about it being just "a show thing" well in the book oberyn embarrassed the mountain even more, the mountain couldn't even touch him until the end! And Mr.Genius "might have a chance beating me" means they could rival him🤦🏻♂️ you can't have the chance to win against someone if you can't rival him. Nonetheless Oberyn kills jaime
I think it's important to consider a situation outside a trial by combat where both fighters have time to prepare and know what they'll be facing. While Oberyn is more adaptable and changes his weapons, armor, and style for the opponent, it would be an entirely different thing if he and Jaime came face to face randomly without time to prep and study for the fight. Oberyn wins because of his knowledge of his enemy. Take that away and he is still deadly, but can't play to true mastery of a single weapon.
This is a great point James ill make a note of it for future vids! I know a lot of people like the idea of characters been dropped in cold with no knowledge of who they are facing, and perhaps we will do a "with prep" and "In cold" in our next fighter based video. But I also think the mind is an often overlooked aspect thats pretty important to what determines a great warrior in an overall all sense. You see it with the greatest boxers and UFC fighters all the time, half the battle is who can get into the others head and who paid attention and adjusted their style to who they are fighting. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts! Liam
@@shifterverse Of course the warrior's mind also has to play and indeed adapt very quickly in a cold fight. I'll call it cunning vs warrior instinct, cunning to plan for a fight in the long term, pure warrior instinct to adapt and fight in the moment with no time to plan.
They meet randomly in an alley and Oberyn just sticks a dagger in Jamie's back...
@@andrewbuchanan415 They meet on randomly on the battlefield unprepared to face each other and armed with their standard equipment. Jaime's mastery of the sword and superior strength, speed, and fitness, as well as his ability in one to one knightly duels means he wins when Oberyn can't employ any sort of tricks or treachery.
@jameshedrick4490 you mean like fighting overseas in a mercenary company along with gladiatorial fights in the colluseum? Oberyn has every ounce of warrior instinct as he does cunning. The only people Jamie thinks stand a chance are the Cleganes and Selmey. His arrogance leads him to believe no one can beat him other than Barringston the Bold, Arthur freaking Dayne or people 3 times his size. Oberyn has Jaimie VASTLY outmatched in a battlefield situation. Oberyn forged 6 links in a maesters chain ffs, the guy is supremely intelligent to boot. And I don't want to hear about the fight at the whispering woods, Robb was trying to capture Jamie so he would have that bargaining chip for his sisters, it's alot easier to kill someone when they're not trying to kill you, and the same goes for Brienne.
From what we know, Jaime is a better swordsman than oberyn is a warrior. That being said Oberyn with a spear vs Jamie with sword Oberyn wins hands down. Just by sheer advantage of the spear. Having an extra 2-3 feet of reach is nearly insurmountable, unless the swordsman is miles better, but that's not the case here
Someone knows their HEMA and also understands why the spear was considered a primary weapon and the sword a side arm! Thanks for tuning in Marnon! Liam
In a realistic setting, you would generally be correct. However, this is a fantasy series. And George himself said Jaime (in the timeline of ASOIAF) would be his first pick to defend him in a Trial by Combat. Creator's word goes, so this already means Jaime wins by default.
But let's be a bit more nuanced than that and review this more in depth. Spears might be a better general primary when all else is equal, but I've seen guys with literal daggers beat spearmen in HEMA due to simply knowing how to deal with spears and having a skill/experience advantage. Nick, one of the instructors from the Academy of Historical Fencing, has done it more than once for example. I as a hobbyist fencer with a ton of experience in other martial arts (Judo, BJJ, Kickboxing) am also fantastic at it because closing the gap IS my natural habitat as opposed to people favoring a spear or polearm who have no prior martial arts experience. A spear doesn't equal a guaranteed win. They can be bypassed. There's videos of it happening even in competition. With full plate armor, it is absolutely possible. All you need is to deflect a single thrust. Once you lunge past the speartip, you are clear of danger and are outright advantaged with a smaller weapon. This is why the Japanese created Iajitsu, the drawing slash. It's why their sheathes were upside down. Because that stuff happened all the time, and the drawing slash was created specifically to immediately drop the spear and get rid of the close quarters threat that had just bypassed your spear. And Jigoro Kano then created Judo to counter the drawing slash by using the momentum of those slashes into tossing the opponent. It was pure combat evolution, and the spear was only the peak (lol) of the chain. It's where it began, not where it ended.
And since Oberyn is no Samurai with a few years of Judo, and has no katana, wakizashi and tanto at the ready, he'd be in hot water when his spear gets bypassed.
I'd bet on Jaime despite the weapons favoring Oberyn. Why? Because all else is not equal. Jaime is bigger, better, more experienced against spears than Oberyn is against longswords, and has full plate armor. Anything short of a massive hit to an unarmored part of Jaime's body would do quite literally nothing for Oberyn. And any hit that fails would be countered immediately, especially since Jaime has a reach/height advantage and is actually extremely fast and agile, unlike The Mountain. Remember those four times Oberyn got his spear stuck on The Mountain's plate armor? He'd be dead if that happened against Jaime.
Also, Jaime is almost as good with spears, lances, maces and axes as he is with a sword. Barristan said it in the books, and he said it himself to Cercei in the show too. Who said Jaime HAD to pick a sword? Why not both a spear and a sword?
@@TheStraightestWhitest Hey dude I remember you from the mountain vid! Your insight is definitely appreciated!
I agree that spear doesn't guarantee a win, but having also done HEMA my experience leaves me with a far less favourable opinion about getting past that point. I've seen tournament winning highly skilled swordsman struggle against even low level spearman. Its not impossible for a sudden charge past the point to work, but I don't think its nearly as easy or reliable as your making it sound 😂 the spear often takes it at least twice as many times as the swordsman. A shield helps but even then that point moves so dam quick from foot to head that even a kite shield sometimes can't keep you covered properly, especially if the spearman knows what they are doing and is nimble with the point.
I need to go back and read the books, my memory of Jaime is Sword sword sword and just very good with other weapons. Word from Baristan should not be discounted and if Jaime is that good, combined with your arguments, I might have to rethink my decision on this vid in some regards.
Touching on the authors word.
The authors word is important, but this is the same guy who said Jaime would beat Aragon from LOTR which is an extremely controversial take to alot of people. Jaime and Oberyn are both his characters so fairs fair, a little more weight behind his words but with that Aragon statement It might be fair to say he is a little biased and quite protective over his favourites and isn't been objective?
An author can say something about their characters, but it doesn't make it true. He stated outright that Arya Stark is a Pyschopath, and anyone with any psychological knowledge (im University level educated but not a professional in the field) can tell you that she is in no way even close to possessing enough of the traits to be deemed one.
GRRM may have intended for her to be a Pyschopath, but her actions and feelings and capacity for empathy in the story prove otherwise. My point being, that once a good writer (and GRRM is a dam good writer) breathes life into a character, they become an entity unto themselves.
He breathed life into both Jaime and Oberyn as these legendary warriors, both are renowned and both have arguments to be made why they would beat the other. Both have great feats to back up their skills, both have black smudges (well red smudges for Oberyn) that throw their untouchable status outside the window.
The author knows the characters better than anyone else and has the strongest idea of what they might do or how something might play out, but until that characters actions are committed to the pages of the official story, the authors thoughts are just opinions that can be deemed subjective, at least in my opinion. Until its on the pages anything can happen, all anyone can do (including the author) is guess.
Which to me is a good thing because it leads to fun conversations and debates like this with your good self instead of an echo chamber of
"I'm right"
"Yeah I know" 😂
@@shifterverse All fair points. Until it happens, we can't know. And I think George meant the Arya statement more in the traditional sense of a psychopath rather than the psychological evaluation of one. She definitely has the traits. The downright curiosity without ANY empathy in her first kills for example. Psychopaths don't have empathy for anyone which definitely isn't the case for Arya, but sane people can't just feel nothing when they stab a begging dude or slice their throat and outright seem curious like Hannibal Lecter as to what they're going through. I think she's somewhere in between. Not a total psychopath, but definitely a screw loose.
As for George's bias, it's definitely there. The Aragorn/Jaime point is a great example. It's ridiculous. However as you pointed out, the reason his word there holds no weight isn't just his bias. It's the fact that it's not his authority to decide who'd win since he doesn't own both characters. So while it does show he can be biased, the reason it devalues his word isn't because of the bias, but because of lack of authority on the subject.
This however is all his to say. So if he's biased to Jaime which may well be the case, it simply results in Jaime being stronger. Plus, I don't think it's just bias. He says Samwell Tarly is his own self insert basically. The chubby stepfather with a heart of gold but with no martial prowess or great feats to speak of. So bias isn't very much in the equation when it comes to his own characters among themselves I think.
Martin mostly just lacks historical/martial knowledge on the subject. That's pretty clear from the way he describes Barristan's fight with Belwas for example. However, this is still his series, so his word still goes even if it would contradict what would happen in a realistic replication of that same scenario.
And it's the pairing of Martin's word + the deduction of any reasonable way a swordsman can beat a spearman however unlikely that makes me draw my conclusion. It comes down predominantly to armor. If I had to pick no armor + spear or full plate + longsword, I'm picking the latter. And that's despite me preferring the agile fighting style over the stocky tanky one when it comes to Judo and kickboxing. I'm lean and fast paced. I move around very quickly. But plate armor is just so damn strong. As I pointed out, it took Oberyn four attempts at Gregor's armor before he found an opening, one of which broke his spear, the other of which got him knocked down. And Gregor isn't a tenth as skilled or fight aware as Jaime. What if Oberyn doesn't have a second spear tossed in by a nearby squire? What if he gets knocked down against Jaime who unlike The Mountain isn't slow and unathletic (not for his size, but the man is 8ft)? Too many variables of risk for me to pick Oberyn over Jaime.
This is the Way
Margaery Tyrell vs Cersei Lannister -not fighting. You know what I mean
I think I know what you mean (who loves Tomman more right?) suggestion noted 😂 Liam
Generalists tend to perform well against specialists, spears tend to perform well against swords. The Viper has this one in the bag 9 times out of 10.
Very true regarding generalists vs specialists and Spear vs Sword. The Spear is known as the king of weapons for a reason, a sword is a side arm, a fantastic backup weapon and great in civilian environments and when indoors in cramped spaces, but not often carried to battle on its own (unless its a whopping great big greatsword) Thanks for watching! Liam
Jaime has armour.
@@Divinemakyr Sometimes, sure. Lots of the fights we see Jaime in, he is fighting unarmored. Oberyn can have armor too in that case. Not that it's terribly important, Oberyn has already demonstrated how effective he can be against an armored opponent. Bronn knows what I'm talking about.
@@errtuownsyou Talking more books less show, using more real logic rather than ASOIAF logic. Jaime has armour more in the books, and Oberyn beating the Mountain is grossly unrealistic.
What makes you think Jaime would choose to fight with a sword against the spear
Oberon was ready to fight Jamie when he came to Kingslanding. Oberons knowledge and experience wins out here.
Absolutely John! Its the prep that will kill Jaime. If they're both dropped in cold I think its a far more in line with a 50/50 shot for each. If its swords Jaime will win 10/10, anything else I'd go with Oberyn. Talent + Experience often trumps talent alone!
Thanks for watching! Liam
Interesting discussion, thanks!
It might also be interesting to look at other characters (similar to Oberyn) about who we do not have lots of information except that they are respected to be really outstanding warriors, like Victarion Greyjoy, Garlan Tyrell, the Greatjon, Bronze John Royce or Areo Hotah
Your welcome! Glad you found it interesting! We will keep your suggestions in mind for future "whose the better fighter" match ups! Our next vid in this series is whose worse (as a villain) Ramsey Bolton or Gregor Clegaine! Thanks for stopping by! Liam
@@shifterverse
It’s gotta be Ramsay-the Mountain is more a tool of Tywin’s than an actual antagonist…unless you mean who’s a worse villain in a qualitative sense rather than moral 😂
@@warlordofbritannia we're going for whose the most fucked up and twisted as our qualifier, basically who would be the one you'd want to contend with the least if you were one of their helpless victims, we'll cover things like their pyschology, how they abuse their respectable attributes and so forth, were not quite done with the script and ill not spoil it but Ramsey gets quite a few of the edges 😂
@@shifterverse
Oh boi, sounds horrible
Can’t wait lol
Victarion is overrated imo not even top 3 in the Iron Islands. I can't believe people put him on their top 10
= Yes.
Because Jaime has never left Westeros… a world where everyone has long swords.
Shields exists, spears exists, axes exists… but seemingly everyone has LongSwords.
Oberyn has been all over the world and has experience against diversed opponents. He also coats his spear in poison… all he needs is one small cut.
That's Jaime's big problem in our opinion. Oberyn can afford a superficial wound and fight on. Jaime can't afford to get caught once, if he is, all Oberyn has to do is bide his time and keep Jaime at bay while the poison does it's magic. People think that Oberyns poison takes days to kick in, which isn't true. He purposefully altered the Manticore venom to make it slow and painful for Gregor. Manticore venom kills fast, like very fast. Oberyn just needs one nick then about 30-60 seconds of holding Jaime off and Jaime is done for. Thanks for watching! Liam
@@shifterverseAt that point might as wel bring in Dragons into the conversation if we’re gonna ise poison 😂
@@AstroSully last time I checked Jaime didn't have access to a dragon like Oberyn has access to poisons 😂 would be quite the game changer if he did
The true question is if Jaime can beat a cult of Cthulhu
Well TWOG certainly thinks so 😂 along with Aragon and Hermione Granger 😂 Thanks for watching Debater! Liam
@@shifterverseCthulhu = Euron Greyjoy the Kraken
Hermione = Red Priestess of Asshai
Aragorn = Maybe Jon or the young Griff?
Maybe Jaime can beat one of them😂
I actually think a morning star or spiked flail would be a better weapon to counter Jamie, than a spear. A swordsman of Jaimie's skill and agility would probably have an easy time getting inside the reach of a pole arm, at which point the weapons length becomes a liability. Even Gregor managed this at one point in his duel with Oberyn. Where as bludgeoning and piercing are the most effective ways to nullify the defenses of plate armor, and a mace or flail is still an agile enough weapon to counter a longsword in close combat.
Thats a pretty dam good suggestion! A flail certainly messes with the longswords defensive viability, nullify the sword and maybe get in close and wrestle woth daggers, or maybe get a good clonk on the head to knock Jaimeslights out 😂, though I do believe in the books Jaime also pairs a shield with his sword (could be misremembering though)
I also agree a good swordsman CAN get past a spear, but it is extremely hard even for a master. Only anecdotal evidence but back when I did a bit of HEMA I watched a reasonably skilled spearman keep a bonefied tournament winning swordmaster at bay with little effort. The spearman was also told to strike as if the swordsman was armoured to make it somewhat manageable for the swordsman and he had no difficulty getting to the unarmoured spots (armpits, neck, face, even the back of the knees) whatsoever. Out of roughly 30 rounds the swordsman closed and won maybe 2-3 times. The lesson was the importance of reach 😂
When the skill difference is small like it is with Oberyn and Jaime I'd bet on the guy with the reach advantage every time. Not to shit on Jaime though, make it sword vs sword and he's going 10/10 on The Viper!
Thanks for watching and for sharing your suggestions! Liam
Fair but I think you're wrong. I think the best weapon would be a 12 guage shotgun loaded with slugs. Reason being it gives you an event greater range advantage, and the slugs would penetrate plate armor pretty easily. If Jaime isn't down in the first shot, a 2nd or 3rd would surely finish him. Especially since he'd likely be on his ass at that point. I'm not sure why OP thinks melee weapons would be used by Oberyn when he could just bring a shotgun.
@@dukedase7 🤣 You speak of utter knavery!
@@dukedase7 Brilliant 😂 But why opt for such a small firearm when Oberyn could rock up in a tank? That way he has the range advantage and he's armoured head to toe?
I don't believe cavalry is allowed in the duel. It must be on foot.
Please do a Jamie vs Robbert Baratheon next
I'm glad it was pointed out that when Jamie had a duel with Brienne he was not at his best- being a captive for a year, lacking nutrition, sanitary conditions & unable to move or get any kind exercise- Jamie would have been far less capable than he normally would have been. Not to mention having his hands chained- this encounter REALLY wouldn't have reflected his abilities.
Aye Rockstago! We put it in there to show just how dam high his endurance is. We wanted to give both warriors their fair due and be as even handed as we could. Brienne is a potential top 10 warrior in westeros and she could just about hold Jaime off in an absolutely dismal state of health. At full strength Jaime is something to fear. I know we went with Oberyn as the winner, but it was not intended as a dig on Jaime, he's an absolute beast. Oberyn was the only guy with a few feats (to help us make a case) and a reputation of legendary status that we thought could reasonably challenge him.
The only other guys we could have put on the table were Arthur Dayne and Selmy, but because all 3 fight in the same way we couldn't come to any conclusion other than "Dayne wins because of Dawn, otherwise any could take it on a day that favours them" 😂 which would have made for a very short, boring video lol. Still we're going to try it one day I'm sure.
Thanks for watching Rockstago! Liam
@@shifterverse I hope in my message I didn't make you think I disagreed. Not AT ALL! I totally agreed with your conclusion & more so, the reasons you gave to arrive at those conclusions. I have always had the position that Jamie was at a HUGE disadvantage when trying to escape from Brienne, I just never heard anybody else take that into consideration. I always hated that in the show, we never saw Jamie display his talents. The closest we saw was when he swiftly took out Ned Stark's household guard in the capitol but, because of honor, wasn't able to fight Ned directly. Even though subtle, I felt that Jamie's story, his journey throughout his life was the best path of redemption. When it was revealed how unfairly he was judged, even from the fair-minded Ned Stark when he told Brienne what he did at King's Landing- for me that was a heroic & tragic story arc of Jamie Lannister.
@@Rockstago not at all mate, and yeah, I hear all the time "Jaimes not that good he got beat by Brienne" and "Brienne must be the best fighter ever she beat Jaime and the hound"
And all I can think is, yeah she beats them both, but both are starving and fatigued. One is chained and suffering muscle atrophy and the other wounded and potentially suffering sepsis.
Brienne is so badass, one of the best in the game, but ain't no way she'd beat ethier of them at something resembling full strength. Both are the deadliest swordsmen in the land.
y’all forget that Jaime fought in the war of five kings and killed many Northmen of repute in Battle. So sure, Oberyn might have a bit more experience but it’s not Jamie hasn’t proven himself in Battle
We certainly did! And we fully admit fault 😂 though in our defense, besides mopping the floor with a Frey force it was minor skirmishes that could fall under our mention of "minor scuffs" and it still doesn't put him on the same level experience wise
Its reminded me to triple check our scripts in future 😂 thanks for watching Mvenven! Liam
Yea Catelyn Stark thinks Jaime is an expierenced battle commander as well as a fierce warrior so I think he was a general in the Grey Joy Rebellion or something. Which makes sense because it's quite common for Kingsguard to be commanding armies.
If I remember right Jaimie fought for the first time as a boy during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, then he fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion, he missed Robert's Rebellion and just killed the king. BUt he has plenty of war experience before the War of the Five Kings
GODS he was STRONG then!!
@@als3022Agaisnt the kingwoods brotherhood, not the Ninepenny Kings, ninepenny was Tywin's.
Amazing video ❤❤❤❤ keep em coming!
Thanks Jubby! We intend to! Liam (The narrator)
One thing that can be said for having one weapon specialization is that you can travel around all day with that weapon and gear and be prepared to go into action. The majority of fights that occur both in the real world and fantasy happen randomly when people are not prepared for it. You usually don't have time to plan to counter your opponent and select your specific weapon and armor. If you have to go into battle or travel a long journey best to carry what you are most skilled with and therefore be as prepared as you can for any situation.
could you please do: The Hound vs Jamie Lannister. Also consider doing Duos? Like the Hound + Mountain V.S Jamie + Oberyn? Or like Barristan + Jamie V.S Ser Criston + Arthur Dayne
We're looking into the hound in a future vid! We're making a list if suggestions so we'll add these to the list! Our next is "whose worse? Ramsey Bolton vs Gregor Clegaine" for whose the most twisted villain. Thanks for watching! Liam
Anyone who says power scaling and hypothetical fights between characters is pointless are lying or just boring lol. I loved this!
And we loved that you loved it Seanysalami! As long as no one gets butthurt and views it as some kind of serious political debate with serious real life implications, we think discussions like this are fun! Its entertaining to say "I think so and so would win here's why" and for someone to politely come back with "I disagree, here's why" It makes for fun debate. Thanks for watching! Liam (I am part of the channel, just responding from a different channel of mine)
@@shifterverse exactly it's all in good fun
Great take. One more touch of nuance which favors Oberyn... considering his choice of poison. When he faced Gregor Clegane, he specifically used a slow acting version of the manticore venom because he wanted him to suffer and to live long enough to confess. So, loadout specific. If he just wants to kill Jamie and has no ulterior motives, I have no doubt he would choose a much faster acting poison.
You missed when Jamie killed Jory Cassell with a sick counter move with a knife to the eye while holding a sword I believe with his left hand could be mistaken nonetheless still was an incredible counter that should have been included in the adaptability round
the scene was in the video, more than once I think so it was considered and it's not really adaptability, short blades were a relatively common choice as siderarm in duels with swords.
In a realistic setting, you guys would generally be correct. However, this is a fantasy series. And George himself said Jaime (in the timeline of ASOIAF) would be his first pick to defend him in a Trial by Combat. I also believe Oberyn wasn't even in the top 3. I only remember Jaime being first and Brienne being third. Creator's word goes, so this already means Jaime wins by default.
But let's be a bit more nuanced than that and review this more in depth the way you did. Spears might be a better general primary when all else is equal, but I've seen guys with literal daggers and bucklers beat spearmen in HEMA due to simply knowing how to deal with spears and having a skill/experience advantage. Nick, one of the instructors from the Academy of Historical Fencing, has done it more than once for example. Once in a weapon rotation where they rolled a dice and took a weapon based on what they rolled. The better fighter tended to win no matter the weapon. I as a hobbyist fencer with a ton of experience in other martial arts (Judo, BJJ, Kickboxing) am also fantastic at bypassing spears because closing the gap IS my natural habitat as opposed to people favoring a spear or polearm who have no prior martial arts experience. Rotational movement KILLS against spears. They will be forced to adjust to your directional shifts which gives massive openings to close the gap and grab it past the tip. So a spear doesn't equal a guaranteed win. They can be bypassed. There's videos of it happening even in competition. With full plate armor, it is absolutely possible. All you need is to deflect a single thrust. Once you lunge past the speartip, you are clear of danger and are outright advantaged with a smaller weapon. This is why the Japanese created Iajitsu, the drawing slash. It's why their sheathes were upside down. Because that stuff happened all the time, and the drawing slash was created specifically to immediately drop the spear and get rid of the close quarters threat that had just bypassed your spear. And Jigoro Kano then created Judo to counter the drawing slash by using the momentum of those slashes into tossing the opponent. It was pure combat evolution, and the spear was only the peak (lol) of the chain. It's where it began, not where it ended.
And since Oberyn is no Samurai with a few years of Judo, and has no katana, wakizashi and tanto at the ready, he'd be in hot water when his spear gets bypassed.
I'd bet on Jaime despite the weapons favoring Oberyn. Why? Because all else is not equal. Jaime is bigger, better overall, more experienced against spears than Oberyn is against longswords, and has full plate armor. Anything short of a massive hit to an unarmored part of Jaime's body would do quite literally nothing for Oberyn. And any hit that fails would be countered immediately, especially since Jaime has a reach/height advantage and is actually extremely fast and agile, unlike The Mountain. Remember those four times Oberyn got his spear stuck on The Mountain's plate armor? In one of those cases, he got knocked down. In another, he spear got cut in half. He'd be dead if that happened against Jaime, and it happened four times before he managed to land a hit of his own. So even poison isn't a free win. Historically, most duels (even unarmored ones) were won with the victor left unharmed.
Also, Jaime is almost as good with spears, lances, maces and axes as he is with a sword. Barristan said it in the books, and Jaime said it himself to Cercei in the show too. Who said Jaime HAD to pick a sword? Why not both a spear and a sword?
My verdict: In unarmored combat, Oberyn has the better chance since he can nick Jaime and poison him, after which all he has to do is play for time. But in combat where each gets to choose their own setup (yes, even poison included), Jaime wins handily. Reasoning? Because I do not think Oberyn will get a chance to even scratch Jaime. Jaime will rush him. He will defend his armpits and neck and force a sloppy offense out of Oberyn because a spearman has to immediately try and create distance when pressed, and Jaime is literally a top 3 greatest duelist out of any of Martin's characters meaning he will assuredly counter that attempt at creating distance since he knows that is exactly what Oberyn will have to do considering he has been training with and against spearmen and lance wielders since he was 5 years old. Once it gets to longsword range or a grappling exchange, Oberyn is dead meat already. No armor, no shield, and his agility was only barely enough to rely on against The Mountain meaning it won't be halfway good enough to evade Jaime. I think this is a hard fight, but one that ends in under ten seconds realistically. Worst case scenario, Jaime does get nicked and succumbs to venom after slicing Oberyn into mincemeat. But Oberyn gets diced. Spears counter swords somewhat, but plate armor countered everything hard. It changed the game a lot more than spears did.
Just my reasoning. Always love your videos and would love to see some more of these hypotheticals with The Hound. Maybe a healthy Hound that isn't starving and slowed by infection against Brienne with equal gear? I always thought The Hound would win under equal circumstances, at least in the show he would. Not sure about the books.
Dam dude I think I thought I'd replied to this comment but I think I've replied to one of your replies to someone else 😂😂😂 any way pal, honestly amazing reasoning and insights. Along with a few other comments its made me and Thom consider defining things like "with prep" "without prep" "armour/unarmoured" "weapon parity/chosen arms" to make it a bit more interesting. Your arguments have also made me want to adjust and reevaluate our conclusion in a lot of ways (though I still think there's the case for Oberyn 😂)
I've disputed a couple of things regarding the authors word and things in that reply to your reply if you can find it 😂 purely my opinion though!
Thanks for watching man and taking the time to type out these essays we honestly enjoy reading them and hearing the arguments. When people come in and say "I respectfully disagree, but here's why and I'm also going to do it without belittling or insulting you" it honestly makes my day! Thanks for watching dude! Liam
Two really skilled, agile fighters. Manticore venom is no joke, a single scratch can be fatal
I wish most would have this veiw Katos. Both are top tier in their own right, and if it came to swords Jaime would mince Oberyn, but Westeros and fairness aren't often put together, no way Oberyn let's it come to swords 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
What out for zombie Jaime 🧟♂️
Spears are said to be the most powerful medieval weapon and therefor Oberyn wins
They were the primary weapon and the sword a side arm for a reason! Thanks for stopping by Tyler! Liam
You got that wrong. They are the most powerful for infantry and armies battle-wise.
Not for 1v1 to the death cenarios.
I think if Oberyn were to use his spear and Jamie got close enough, he'd be able to get a few good hits in, and the fight would be over. Don't get me wrong, though, Oberyn would certainly have a shot. The big thing is if it was a trial by battle, Tywin would certainly not let Oberyn poison his spear. He's more cunning than Oberyn is, and he knows the kinds of tactics he'd use.
Not it’s the most risky one weapon. It breaks incredibly easily.
The Red Viper
Okay, I like this alot, it also lines up with my logic, well played sirs. But now I have a question, one that sprang up while watching this: Could the best versions of Jaime and Oberyn team up and defeat Robert Strong (zombie Mountain)?
For context, I mean a fight to the death, and this is against book Robert Strong, the one who is much more terrifying and mysterious than the show one (and may not have a head under his helmet?). I really want that fight to take place.
Oberyn,
Both skilled but…
There’s a reason pikes/spears were used more than swords in medieval warfare. Someone skilled with a pole arm could keep a swordsman at distance IMHO.
Spears are known as the king of weapons for a reason. A half decent spearman can often overcome a very skilled swordsman, make the spearman skilled and the odds only get worse for that sword. We love Jaime and we think he's got the skill edge but with Oberyn been up there on the skill front also combined with the reach advantage, and piling on the poison, we just think its highly unfavourable for The Kingslayer. Thanks for watching! Liam
yep and the reasons is: spear 10 times cheaper and requires 10 times less training time to be useful in a hand of average man, spears also great in mass battles with combat formations. But in the 1v1 I honestly think sword has mass advantage.
8:15 forgot abou the war of the 5 kings. Jaime comanded a lanister army and fought some minor skirmishes before his capture
Your absolutely right! I only picked up on it after Thom had finished the video, my bad on that one! He decimated a frey force if I remember correctly. I don't think it changes anything regarding the experience difference but a firm reminder for me to triple check my scripts 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
Oberon dying in both mediums was as much a gut punch as Ned and Robb’s deaths.
that's exactly what I'm saying. I would never have expected a character of his caliber would be killed off like that and so soon.
Something i want to add to Jaimes favour is that Jaime is richer, which should give him an advantage with the equipment category. Better armour
I think there's a scale of diminishing returns though? You can be rich, but. how well does that transfer?
E.g House Lannister is super rich but Tywin could never manage to buy a Valyrian Steel Sword from any of the other Houses ...
@@TheFandomeClips that is true, altough we can presume it would make a difference with the overall armour quality. Still wouldn’t change the outcome of course, since the poison kind of renders most of Jaimes advantages useless
Oberyn is my pick,even if he died(which i doubt if he actually gets his head in the game)the poison would finish his dirty job.
That was factored into our thinking Alejandro! If Oberyn nicks Jaimes skin once, there is nothing Jaime can do to escape death. Thanks for watching! Liam
@@shifterverse you're welcome man,your vids are top of the line and the wait for them its more than Worth it.
@@alejandronunez5110 thanks so much! Our first go at ramping up momentum this month so hopefully have another vid for you soon! Liam
Actually, if they both die, it probably proves Jaime to be the better warrior. For both to die, Oberyn either has to die first or succumb to injuries suffered from Jamie's blade, while Jamie will die from poisoning, either directly or from being in a weakened enough state for Oberyn to get a killing blow. In either case, for both to die, the result is the same, Jamie outright kills Oberyn, but poison kills Jamie, not Oberyn.
"Who ever the writers want to win"
So dam true alaaax! Doesn't make it any less fun to talk about though 😂 thanks for stopping by! Liam
Oberyn is more like Batman. And he wins because… He’s Batman!
Brilliant! 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
I think this ends one of two way's, Oberyn is such a skilled warrior I think he would be able to cut Jamie and the blade poisoning him so even if Jamie does kill Oberyn jamie also loses anyway. Other one is Oberyn killing jamie without dying just my opinion.
We agree Nathan. Oberyn can afford to take a light wound and still have a shot at pulling through. Jaime can't afford to get caught even ONCE. There's only two common outcomes, Jaime might pull it off one time in a hundred and get through untouched, but most of the time, either Oberyn wins or they both die 😂 The skill gap isn't big enough in our opinion for Jaime to dance around the viper without sustaining at least one wound. Their both top tier though, we have every respect for Jaime and think he's the man, if things were totally level and FAIR and he got to pick the weapon choice (swords) we think he'd trash the viper. But this is Westeros and when we look at the rules of their judicial duels, its clearly anything but fair and Oberyn would make sure of that 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam
This would actually be a great fight...
I mean was there really an argument here. Oberyn beats most in a one on one. He's not the best but there is only a handful on Planetos that can beat him.
True Paragon, but Jaime is no slouch either, he can beat Hermione Granger, Aragon and a cult of Cthulu according to GRRM. Thanks for tuning in! Liam
@@shifterverse I do not agree with Aragorn. GRRM is dead wrong on that one. He's over 80 years old and fights beings well beyond normal human limits in a world full of men who do similar. He regular keeps up with elves who in the first age were even able to fight Valar who are themselves demigods. Jaimie is not that skilled or strong enough.
@@paragon1172000 I completely agree, it's why we didn't take GRRMs word TOO seriously regarding this. He's of the opinion like most people with a braincell that the one who wins the fight in fiction is the one who the writer chooses to win.
It's doesn't stop it been any less fun for people like us to speculate and argue about though, but ultimately anyone can beat anyone in a fictional setting if the writer sets it up correctly.
But if your taking things fairly and considering all factors, it's incredibly difficult to make the argument for Jaime vs Aragon if your going by what we've seen and know of them both, and it makes me trust his opinion about Jaime a little bit less 😂
Oberyn just wins.. It is rather hard to compare them.
Jaime is one of the best warriors in Westeros ..certainly not as strong as Ser Arthur Dayne or Prime Robert Baratheon, but strong nontheless.
Oberyn on the other hand, is a master-trained duelist. He excels in 1 versus 1 situations, where Jaime is more useful on the battlefield itself.
So.. who is the greater warrior? Jaime.
Who would win a fight in a regular 1 versus 1 scenario? Oberyn.
I liked the video!
Edit: Furthermore, it is important to note that this discussion is not just a topic of skill or experience, it is also a huge difference in weapon choice, considering that Oberyn laces his weapons with highly effective poison which would result in his immediate victory. I respect Jaime's ability to fight, but Oberyn has to be lucky once, Jaime has to be lucky all the time throughout the duel.
Thanks Cembrunert! Good points made! I think there's also the fact that so long as Oberyn nicks Jaime once he'll always have killed his opponent. So its etheir Oberyn wins or double death. We'll try to keep them coming! Thanks for watching! Liam
I think you have it flipped, oberyn fought in battles, Jamie fought in tourneys
@@dtczyk8976I get what you point but I am talking about the way they were trained from a young age.
As mentioned in the video, both have received royal-like training in the arts of combat. Tywin focused on a soldier-type training for his son, as stated and seen throughout the events of this lovely series.
Oberyn enjoyed the training of a duelist rather than a warrior, yet has experience regardless.
@@dtczyk8976 Jaime also fought in battles.
He’s far better than prime Robert wtf
Oberyn
Although the Sandsnake Oberon trained to be a warrior uses a spear and the Dornish army is generally referred to in the number of spears they can bring to a fight so it DOES seem to be a Dornish preferred weapon...
Just rewatched Oberyn vs Mountain fight scene. Jamie was really impressed by Oberyn. He had this awe look "whaaat? who is this guy".
I would have also considered what their pre-game preparations would be like. Oberyn and Jaime aren't reckless and will likely spend day before a duel making sure they're well fed, hydrated and rested. However, if Oberyn knew a duel was coming and wasn't trying to extract a confession like he was with the Mountain, it wouldn't be out of the range of possibility that he would have Jaime's food and water poisoned to ensure his opponent was partially infirmed during the duel.
I wish we'd mentioned that in our vid now, I'm not sure if Oberyn would dishonour Jaime the same way he did the Mountain woth something like that, but the fact he employs poison alone makes me think he's capable of it!
Alot of people have took issue with us allowing the fighters to have prep, nice to see someone come along and say "you didn't address prep enough!" Thanks for watching Bloodraven
Can you do a brandon vs garlan fight i think it would be a really fun battle both are portrayed as bigger stronger and more skilled versions of their younger brothers
We could look into it it Blaze!
Ever thought about making a top 10 fighters list or maybe a tier list
I think he has one for GOT
Ask and you shall receive Max! I'll put it on the list! We have 3 vids where we delve into top 5s who could and couldn't beat the Mountain if they are of interest? Pretty good for benchmarking characters!
In the mean time, Alt shiftx (Basically THE MAN here on YT when it comes to all things thrones) has a pretty cool top 10 list of warriors!
@@shifterverse I watched his list and it was kind of bad ngl. I can go in depth why its really bad but my main 2 gripes were that Oberyn wasn't on the list and that Victarion is on the list. Dagmer literally tells us who is the 3 strongest warriors from the Iron Islands are and Vic isnt on the list. Also Vic isnt sure he can defeat Harras Harlaw so thats 3 guys who for sure should be ahead of Vic and 1 guy who could be ahead.
@@shifterverse I made a top 3 fighters from each realm list a while back, if u want I can share that and u can just pick the 10 best from those guys if u want.
@@maxb8749 We'll be launching a discord sever soon buddy! come and share them with us there if that's ok! (Also I'm not ignoring your other comments regarding Oberyn vs Jaime, I'll get round to them when i have a chance)
There are real times when tyrion seems almost friendly with the starks and he seems to hold a grudge against his father and sister. I wonder, could tyrion be persuaded to join team stark?
Good pick
Oberyn is the type of guy to enlist in the French Foreign Legion for the stories lol
So true or to go bear wrestling just for the shits and giggles 😂
Oberyn all day long.🥰
Love both of these characters, and their stories, sadly Oberyn's smashed short, are just top notch! Would love to have a Oberyn short story of his life before, instead of second-hand oft mentioned.
Us too AkodoGarou. In both the books and the show his time is incredibly short but man, one of the most memorable and interesting characters of the bunch, and it's not like there isn't stiff competition on the well written character front. Thanks for watching! Liam
Daemon Targaryen Vs Bronn would be interesting. Both are highly skilled swordsmen and combat pragmatists that like to taunt opponents. They both have decades of live combat experience and are among the most seasoned fighters in the cast .
Otherwise they Daemon is taller, stronger and has more armor ( even at his barest armored he still wears a breastplate) and has a valaryian steel sword. Bronn is faster, more agile, carries a dagger with him at all times to have a backup weapon if his sword or other weapon breaks or to dual wield and wears little armor. Bronn displays a wider weapon proficiency with sword,knife,spear, Lance,archery and even his barehands. Daemon mainly fights with a sword but is also capable with the Lance and dagger. ( I’m counting books and shows together)
I think it would be a fun match.
We'll add it to the list for future vids Xhammer (assuming this series takes off that is) Thanks for watching! Liam
Brown would take it.
Bronn would not risked it. He a survivalist, not an adrenaline junkie person. Because Bronn love himself more than his honor.
The biggest problem with this is GRRM already said Jaime is the best at the time. When asked about who would be his champion if he was faced in a life or death situation, GRRM chose Jaime, meaning in a 1v1 fight, Jaime beats Oberyn, as Oberyn was also a pick.
GRRM also said Jaime could defeat Aragon from LOTR in a duel, despite extremely overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The word of God is very valuable, but its not infallible or beyond scrutiny. Spear/Polearm vs a longsword is an unbelievably unfavourable match up for the guy with the sword. A quick google of some HEMA bouts with that set up would set GRRM straight and maybe convince him that his fictional trial by combats should be historically accurate and have equipment equality 😂 thanks for tuning in Ishan! Liam
@@shifterverse The difference is Oberyn and Jaime are both HIS characters. The Aragorn thing comes down to him not properly understanding the source material, but on his own works he is the ultimate authority, and his opinion on Jaime winning that fight isn't inconsistent with anything else he has said or written.
@@greatestoldone7658 I agree wholeheartedly that his words should carry a lot of weight. But I don't think they are beyond scrutiny. GRRM is clearly a very well versed history buff, but from what we read he doesn't seem to have the strongest understanding of historical combat. Hence why in his trials by combat the fighters are picking their load outs when in reality equipment equality (and sometimes training and experience) was often a set rule.
Spear vs longsword is very unfavourable for the swordfighter, like extremely unfavourable to the point a half decent spearman can keep a sword master at bay I've watched it in person at a HEMA club, they did around 30 rounds for fun and the swordmaster only got through 2-3 times. The point of a spear can strike the head, then the feet blindingly fast with minimal movement, much much faster than a sword can. The constant pokes, jabs and distance between thrusts often fluster and frustrate the swordsman who isn't even in range to threaten his opponent back.
We live and we learn though, in future vids, me and Thom will look into "with and without prep" and "with chosen equipment and equal equipment" to make it a bit more fair (though westeros isn't a fair place 😂)
I thought you were going Jamie all the way, halfway through the video then I was like I got oberyn all day long and then I see y'all explain my point I love it haha keep it up these are great 👍
Thanks Wood. Glad we made a good argument to you! We will definitely keep them coming! Our next is the "whose worse" half of this series, Ramsey Bolton it Gregor Clegaine. Thanks for watching! Liam
Oberyn is (or *was 😭) my fav character. Which speaks to my preferred strategy in combat (Im not a fighter, but a well researched writer. So, at least, my oc’s would reflect it)
I agree with you 100%!!!! Jaime can really only use one weapon however if their isn’t one available he’s screwed!! Oberyn is cerebral and that is what makes a great warrior!
Thanks Shelly! Skill is great but skill combined with intelligence is greater! Thanks for tuning in! Liam
This is so untrue. Barristan in the books and Jaime in the show both said that Jaime is about as good with maces, lances and spears as he is with a sword. He has been trained equally with each. He favors the sword, that's all. But he can use anything. The main reason he's known for the sword is because Kingsguard do not get outfitted with a polearm. The sword is a royal/burgher weapon. It's easy to carry. You still have your hands free. It's also less intimidating since a polearm makes you look like you're actively at war, which is unnerving to the general populace. A sword just chills in its sheath and can outright add to your appearance.
@@TheStraightestWhitest my point which you seemed to have missed is that Oberyn is a cerebral warrior he finds your weakness and capitalizes on it. Jaime’s vanity is his biggest weakness and Oberyn would have used that against him. I’m sure that Jaime was equally as good with all the weapons and I know Tywin has one of the best master of arms in Casterly Rock that gold could buy. However Oberyn’s greatest weapon is his mind and Jaime is known as the stupidest Lannister.
@@shellyhoward7777 IQ and fight IQ are different things. Jaime isn't stupid or vain in battle.
@@TheStraightestWhitest I was speaking of fight IQ. I know that with both hands Jaime is considered one of the greatest swordsmen alive. However Oberyn is the deadliest warriors alive and he proved it fighting the mountain if it weren’t for his need to get a confession out of him he would still be alive. I don’t think Jaime would have beaten the mountain .
Do this one next- Who is a better fighter: the mountain or khal Drogo!
Already kind of did that one in our 5 people who couldn't beat the Mountain video. Our conclusion was Drogo was a better and more skilled warrior by miles but his toolkit is countered hard by Gregors armour and weapon advantages.
Oberyn is the best one vs one in that show. He should have never be killed.
Personally, I’m a big Oberyn fan. But when it comes down to a duel I have to give it to Jamie, he’s going to be able to close the distance on a spear and if Oberyn had a sword then he’s outclassed.
Assuming that Oberyn doesn't tailor his weapon, skill set and armour accordingly. What would his weapon of choice be against Jaime? I do not know, I am not a master fighter that brought the mountain low because she outsmarted him. But I would definitely not put it past him to use actual armour against Jaime to make that gap closing significantly less of a threat versus an opponent he can't abuse the same way as he could the mountain.
Two short swords style would do it, I think. Closer to the opponent
They should have never killed Oberyn off. Qyburn could have still brought the mountain back, but how awesome would it have been to see Oberyn fighting white walkers.
How sad would it have been to see his character ruined by D&D…
@@TheFandomeClipswell D&D did ruin, Jaime Lannister, Jon Snow, Bran Stark, Daenerys Targaryen and more in season 8. Oberyn was killed off very stupidly, he just should have won against the mountain.
As a Jamie fan boy, let me poliety correct you on a few things you got wrong in the video😂
1.) Just because Oberyn has more experience than Jamie does doesn't mean he has more knowledge. Jamie knows his way around fighting just as much, if not more, than Oberyn does.
2.) Jamie mentioned he knows that Oberyn poisons his spear and say what you want about how cunning he is, he's not going to take a fight like that against Oberyn. He'll demand that he fights one even ground without any dishonerable tactics being used.
3.) Having a spear against someone with a sword might seem like an advantage, but only against someone like the mountain where he's too slow to get close and can be kept at reach using the spear. The same tactics won't work against someone like Jamie, who is stronger and just as fast.
4.) Oberyn was able to beat the mountain because he was able to exploit clear and obvious weakness like his lack of speed. Jamie doesn't have any obvious weaknesses like that. It'd be much harder to decide just what to do against a fighter like Jamie and what gear and weapons to pick. They dont know each other personally and haven't seen each other fight. I think that this is easily the biggest problem Oberyn would face.
5.) Spears don't go well against swords. All Jamie has to do is close the gap, and the fight would be over. He's stronger and more skilled. You might argue Oberyn could pull a dirk or a dagger once that happens, but Jamie would be ready for it, considering he did the same thing against Jort Cassel.
For these reasons, you wouldn't want to bet against Jamie in a fight like this.
Dont get me wrong. Oberyn could certainly beat Jamie, but depending on the circumstances, I think the King Slayer takes this one 7 times out of 10.
Wow a reasonably made argument, spoken as though from the King Slayers mouth itself 😂
Some good points, although I have a few rebuttals if you'll allow it Kingslayer (I know its you behind that keyboard Jaime 😉 I'm surprised you can type with only one hand)
-The knowledge thing is an extremely fair point (which is why Jaime got that edge) your life is basically training, sister love, bodyguard duty and tournaments. But there is something to be said about training vs real world experience. Its why sometimes (and I stress sometimes) a professional fighter might get knocked out in a street fight (he's not expecting the kick to the crotch or the glass bottle to his face)
-your severely underestimating the difficulty of closing the gap with sword against a spear. Even a journey man spear practioner can often keep a bonefied sword master at bay with little difficulty. In the hands of a expert its even worse. There's a reason the spear is considered a primary weapon and the sword is seen as a side arm. Agility and strength can only do so much against such a reach disadvantage, even more so when you opponent is comparably agile and fast.
-You don't get to demand anything Ser! In a real historical judicial duel, absolutely, equality of equipment (and sometimes even skill and training) were often the rules. In westeros though we've seen enough trials to see its basically "take and use what you want" kind of deal 😂 you may not like it Ser and you may think it isn't fair, but this is Westeros! Westeros isn't fair!
Thanks for watching Kingslayer! Liam
@@shifterverse Thank you for the reply. Jamie Lannister is one of the best swordsmen to ever exist, as stated by the author himself. If anyone could get the gap closed, it'd be him. He'd know that's what he'd need to do in order to secure a kill. Also, as for your last point that Westeros isn't fair, that may be true. But it's just as I said Jamie wouldn't accept a fight against any kind of a poisoned weapon. That's something he finds contemptible. I stand by my original estimate that in a trial by combat cenario without any poison or other cheap tricks, Jamie wins 7 times out of 10.
That doesn't even include environment. If they fight in a trial setting like with the mountain, no one gets the advantage. But if they are in woods or hilly terrain then Oberyn can give jamie a run around like the mountain, i can even see jamie getting frustrated and cutting trees in failed attacks which Oberyn would want as it would dull Jamie's sword. I can also see if they were on a beach Oberyn kicking sand up into Jamie's eyes, or leading him to things like quick sand or bogs to slow him down of not drown him
idk man I highly disagree with this, just because of how much GRRM himself hypes up Jaime. He wrote a bunch of death battles with Jaime and other fictional characters and he picked Jaime when he was asked who he would choose if he was under trial by combat.
An in universe reason why I think Jaime would win is because after 8 months of imprisonment AND having his hands shackled, he was still able to go toe to toe with Brienne. To put this in perspective Jaime is at best at 50% strength here and he is fighting Brienne of Tarth on equal footing. Brienne of Tarth is a giant of a woman who won a melee of 116 knights and she is struggling against a frail, fatigued shackled man who is smaller than her.
I just feel like guys like Jaime, Barristan and Arthur Dayne are miles above all the other top tier fighters.
More than fine with us pal! Wouldn't be fun if it was a one-sided debate and you've politely explained your reasons why well Max.
The issue we have with GRRMs word is that he also said Jaime would beat Aragon in a fight, which when you look at what both characters are capable of is an extremely controversial stance to take. Its a prime human vs a man bordering on superhuman with 60+ years of experience over his opponent while still maintaining youthful vigor. For us that takes some of the infallibility out of his opinions 😂 and hints that he may be a touch biased and protective of his favoured characters.
If its a fight on even ground (both using the same weapon) and its swords, we fully acknowledge that Jaime would beat Oberyn dam near every time. We did have a small segment talking about that in the vid, but Thom (channels owner, editor and producer)cut it for pacing reasons. Problem is for us to argue for Jaime is if Oberyn knows who he's fighting he'll go out of his way to make sure the sword is unfavourable vs his weapon choice.
Skill can only compensate an equipment and reach disadvantage so much, especially if the guy with those advantages is also extremely skilled.
Oberyn is also in that top tier. This is a guy whose fought for multiple years in all manner of settings and lived to tell the tale. He's also something of a prodigy and shouldn't be underestimated.
This was the pilot episode and after reading through the comments we've decided in future warrior match ups we'll cover "with prep" "in cold" "equipment equality" and "fighters pick their weapons" situations so characters get their fair due! As its obvious Jaime can take it in some of those categories.
Thanks for watching Max! Liam
@@shifterverse I'm not too familiar with LOTR so please correct me if this is a crazy statement but I think it is possible Jaime can beat Aragorn. Some people are just naturally gifted.
Deontay Wilder with like 18 months of boxing training won a bronze medal in the Olympics. The guys he beat had no exaggeration over 100x experience more than him but that didn't matter because he's just naturally gifted like that, he's a prodigy.
Just learned that George Foreman won Olympic gold with 10 months of training, holy shit...
I do agree that the GRRM reasoning was wonky so thats why I wanted to back it up with what Brienne said cuz shes an in universe character but also a extremely reliable source.
Oberyn all day… The spear is the game changer …. Not even counting the poison he’ll definitely put on all his blades he just has to Nick Jamie to kill him
Thats the issue Jaime has, getting out of the fight untouched is going to be nearly impossible for him so the result is ethier Oberyn wins or double death. Very few instances where Jaime takes the W without dying afterwards 😂 thanks for watching war theroy! Liam
I don't think Oberyn would use spear against Jaime. Spear has advantage against sword in a duel, but plate armor would allow Jaime to close the gap and turn the tables. I think Oberyn would go for a pollaxe. It would also give him reach advantage over Jaime, but would allow him to maim his opponent without needing to hit the small gaps in the armor.
I was impressed early on in the video with how even handed you were being, though some of the categories seemed arbitrary for this matchup. The conclusion though was disappointing, as I don't think your reasoning for Oberyn being the "anti-meta" was very compelling. You also mentioned word of god, and I'm pretty sure if you take into account what GRRM has said about Jaime across various interviews then the result should have been clear, I don't really think there is any contradictions from him on that front either.
The problem we have with GRRMs word is that he really doesn't care for "who would wins" which is totally fine, each to their own and I agree with him getting too obsessed with them beyond a bit of fun can ruin a story.
Hes on record as saying Jaime Lannister would beat Aragon from LOTR which even a surface glance at the characters capabilities would tell you is an extremely controversial stance to take. One is a peak human male, the other is bordering on superhuman with a good 60 odd years of experience on his opponent while still retaining the physicality of a much younger person. Statements like that throw into question how much stock should be taken in his words as serious statements and what should be taken as him just answering his favourite characters for fun.
The truth is the winner is whoever the writer wants to win in that moment. Jaime lost to to Brienne because of circumstances, Gregor lost to Oberyn because of circumstances. Oberyn was splatted because of the circumstances. When skilled fighters clash its often a matter of luck and whose got the equipment/skillset advantage. We're just of the opinion that Oberyn will always set himself up in a way that gives him those advantages, whereas Jaime will rely on what he's best at and nothing else.
Bit like pitting the worlds best boxer against one of the worlds great UFC fighters. If the boxer keeps the fight an upper body striking match yeah hes going to destroy his opponent, but there's just no way in hell that the UFC fighter isn't going to throw kicks and take the fight to the ground as soon as he can.
Thats why we think Oberyn will win. The video is not intended to disrespect Jaime, we outright said he's the best at what he does, problem is he's facing someone in this match up who's going to look at that and say "neat, now how do I fuck up his game plan?"
Thanks for sharing your thoughts great stone one, I enjoy responding to well made arguments! Makes a change from "Jaime wins, no argument needed" 😂 Liam
Jamie's skill was impressive, but Oberyn's versatility (snicker) definitely gives him the edge.. Well done Vid!
Lol. 😂
Thanks Mr Craft! - Thom
If memory serves, George has gone on record saying Jamie is the most dangerous warrior in westeros. Barristan selmy calls him the best natural swordsman he'd ever seen. Oberyn is a super dangerous man, beyond a doubt, but his advantage was much greater against the mountain than it would be against Jamie. The mountain is big and slow, whereas Jamie is super fast. Even Brienne, when she fights him after being in a prison cell, and has his hands chained together, thinks 'no man in westeros could stand against him at his full strength'. It'd still be a legendary fight, but I'd put odds on Jamie personally, but barely
Absolutely agree !!!!!!
"Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time."
I like it....
Better daughter 5 way Caitlyn Tulley Vs Cersei Lannister Vs Gilly vs Sansa Stark vs Arya Stark
Worst set of siblings Baratheon vs Targaryeon
That's so going on the list!😂😂 Thanks Josh!
Jamie did not almost kill Braine in the books she gives him credit but in the show she didn’t even sweat
Brienne did more than give him credit in the book. She acknowledged that had Jaime not been starved, chained and fatigued noone could have stood against him. Pretty sure in the book it takes pretty much everything Brienne has just to keep him at bay and she's one of the best fighters around. Show fights more in Briennes favour that much is true, but unlike show Oberyn and book Oberyn, show Jaime and Book Jaime may as well be two different characters in some regards. Thanks for watching dark angel! Liam
@@shifterverseTrue
"Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight!"
What do you mean she didn't even break a sweat?
There is a saying in boxing: styles makes fights. I go with Oberyn.
Adam Jensen beats both of them and without even using his advanced augmentations. He beats them using just his arm blades and his martial arts skills.
Adam Jensen beats them at the same time. He gives both of them a slap and takes them out non-lethally.
I mean......................................yeah I can see that been the case 😂 Thanks for stopping by Regretfulalpinefan! Liam
Oberyn also uses poisons and one slash to Jamie and it’s over for him.
Oberyn was my choice going into the video and you explained the reasons well, just wish you chose Ned stark VS jaime since they started a fight that got spoiled would be interested to see who you'd decide would win the fight had it been one on one, since you don't play favourites and look at things from a logical stand point.
Jaime is stomping Ned.
In the show they make that look much closer than it should be, real strange one considering a few episodes later we hear how Jaime cuts through 10 men trying to get to Robb and the only reason he's stopped is because his sword got stuck in someone lol .
Thanks KyleCharles! I've got to agree with my buddy Thom, Ned would likely get wasted by a prime Jaime. The show makes the fight look a lot closer than it should be. Neds not bad at all, in fact he's likely pretty above average but Jaime is the peak of swordsmanship, in the top 3 easily (the other two been Barristan and Dayne) thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts! Liam
I agree that he is going to lose that fight in the street, though Ned does have a valyrian steel sword which I think it might give an edge in equipment and reach but everything else favours Jaime in a prepared fight @@TheFandomeClips
I mostly agree with the only unknown for me being the Valyrian steel sword Ned has which is where my knowledge is lacking since I feel like I remember them saying it can cut through regular steel but never really shows that happening @@shifterverse
@@kylecharles4333 aha, fair point.
The issue with Ice though is the size. It's described as being 6 feet long, which might be advantageous for range (and because its Valyrian its lighter then it should be...) but against Jaimie I think he gets in there moment he see's a gap.
Would love to see how someone's supposed to wield that thing in a fight!
"Longsword is a bad option in close quarters." And it's far from the best option as a whole, all polearms have tremendous advantage over swords, in reach, but more importantly in handling and leverage due to the wider grip, an average polearm wielder in a good suit of armour is a serious threat to even the best swordsman.
One bite from the venomous viper, an elephant would die, much less a lion.
Jaime also squired for Barristan and Arthur Dayne.
True! I think his first real taste of actual life and death combat was against the kingswood brotherhood though, its definitely where he made his first kill if my memory is serving me correctly. Thanks for watching! Liam
oberyn also probably wouldn't use a slow acting poison like with the mountain. Jaime is also much less of a "mountain" and the poison would probably affect him more. It might literally take Oberyn one good hit
Spear is infact one of the worst possible options against a large heavily armoured opponent, not only does it have limited armour penetration abilities (as in difficult to go around, mostly impossible to go through) but the much stronger opponen can just grab it and wrestle and kill the smaller spear wielder. But anyway if polearms were allowed then Gregor should've had one as well, though at least a mighty greatsword is less of a downgrade than a spear in armored duels.
The weapon oberyn (and probably Gregor as well) should've used would've been a poleax, or maybe a shield+warhammer. If allowed they should've definetely had daggers as well.
Actually since Oberyn was lightly armoured it was probably Gregor who had the best counter as he had a sword which is more versatile and nimble than a poleaxe, halberd or maul, while still being strong enough to seriously hurt Oberyn on a direct hit.
Source: I did HEMA for two years and follow people like Scolagladiatoria.
If you've done HEMA you'll have seen what happens when even a very good swordsman tries to grab the spear of even a journeyman practioner. Its nowhere near as easy as it sounds. The point of a spear can move, back and forth and from head to foot blindingly fast and with minimal movement needed and in the hands of an expert can be driven through mail and gambeson of unarmoured spots like the armpits with relative ease if the opening is created. Which is why its considered a primary weapon and the sword is considered a side arm (though in fairness gregors sword is a greatsword so can also be considered a primary weapon)
I agree with your points about better anti armour weapons like hammers and polearms though! Although Oberyns whole game relied on staying out of reach, so a hammer isn't a great choice for him unless its a pole hammer.
His weapons and armour weren't the best choice against any armoured opponent, they were his best choice for offsetting his monstrous disadvantage in height and reach that he had with the mountain. He couldn't afford to play the mountains game of trading blows (which is the typical conduct in armoured vs armoured fighting) and had to make his own and that meant not getting hit once. It wasn't the spear that defeated the mountain in the end, it was Stamina, the one physical trait a very fit lean guy is often greater with than a fit but largely muscular guy. The spear served more as a pokey annoyance stick to get the Mountain moving and the stamina contest underway and it that regard it was a very good choice.
In a real life circumstance, the match up would be considered too unfair to ever take place as a judicial duel. Oberyns victory was also the exception, not the rule. Pulling off a fight like that is one in a million regardless of what weapons you pick.
Source- Also did a bit of HEMA and consulted friends who've been doing it for many years.
@@shifterverse A spear is difficult to grab when a spear is attacking you yes, but when you rush the spearman and he has to block your sword, then you do get an opportunity to grapple. And yes a spear is fine against gambesons but here Oberyn knew that Gregor was going to wear heavy plate (or whatever the costume designers did with his coat of plates thing)
Nut yeah a poleaxe is definetely better than a one handed warhammer, but with a shield and a warhammer Oberyn might hve been able to get close defending against a nattack with the shield and then gotten a quick clonk to Gregor's head
If Oberyn thinks it's fair to poison his weapons, I think it's fair for his opponent's weapon to be a crossbow.
Oberyn: Ha! You've fallen for one of the classic blunders: the first being, never get involved in a land war in Essos; the second being, never go up against a Dornishman when death is on the line!
Jaime: Fortunately I've spent several years building up an immunity to iocaine powder.
Oberyn: Well shit!
😂 Oberyn vs Westley that would be such a great battle of witty banter, let alone the fighting itself! Thanks for watching that comment made me chuckle! Liam
The Red Viper every time
The saying is "you can't eat your cake and have it too."
Not where I'm from its not (Yorkshire) 😂 Liam
Easiest way to win against Jamie is easily how Oberyn has already defeated Gregor Clegane if it wasnt for Qyburn treating the poison.
Oberyn literally uses the spear coated in poison and also we all saw how effective he was against the mountain especially when the mountain literally big and strong and fast that he's somewhat able to keep up with Oberyn.
Oberyn is freaking damn good aswell, he spent his time in the fighting pits meeting all kinds of killers and fighters. Compared to the tournament jousting and knights that fight with honor, thats very different compared to the fighting pits where PEOPLE KILL EACH OTHER.
What happens if the fight is spontaneous and not planned?
We're going to do a short to cover that bud. In future vids we'll do with and without prep (this was the pilot and our first shot at a vs vid so we're still ironing out the kinks 😂)
If you drop them in cold it would likely be determined by whose equipped with what. If they've both got swords Jaime will mince Oberyn absolutely no question. If Oberyns got his spear and Jaimes got his sword, the match swings into Oberyns favour purely due to the weapon advantage (but Jaime will take it occasionally)
We chose to let them have prep because we believe an often overlooked but important aspect of what makes a great warrior is their mind and ability to get into their opponents head and study them. You see it often in boxing and UFC, sometimes the fight is won because one fighter got into the other fighters head.
Thanks for watching Robin! Liam
The spear is a huge advantage
I’m convinced many believe Oberyn only knows how to fight with a spear! From what we know of his past, not only is he incredibly intelligent, but also an excellent duelist with a sword! He did not get the name red viper for poisoning spears. His first poisoned duel was with a sword! Not only that, but he also fought with the second sons, in the fighting pits, and even defeated various difficult opponents in 1 v 1 tournaments! His age and travels also rank him as more experienced than Jaime Lannister as well. I think even with a sword, Oberyn defeats Jaime
Edit: I mean other commenters not the channel
Oberyn beating Jaime with a sword is the most delusional/misinformed takes I've ever seen.
Oberyn beats Jaime with spear and poison. For sure
Oberyn beats Jaime with just spear. Probably not but maybe
Oberyn beats Jaime with just sword. No chance at all
Oberyn ✊🏾 he beat the Mountain without breaking a sweat
It seems to me that Oberyn is the Batman of Westeros. Wealth of Bruce Wayne and fighting skill, equipment and cunning of the Bat of Gotham.
You forget the Greyjoy rebellion
He’s cunning but also gets his skull smashed because he cannot control himself 😂
It's called hubris, oberyn wasn't stupid he was just blinded by vengeance.
@@hokagedlo6133 being blinded by arrogance seems pretty stupid
Metà counters works against average meta player, not against the best at one particular skill. That said, yes the poison would at least make sure that is a tie
Oberyn showed he was the best fighter easily but he also showed his biggest flaw in that his over confidence fed his anger, you can see the excitement in Jamie’s face when he realizes the legends of the red viper where true, he didn’t just beat the mountain but he embarrassed him
The real question is if Jaime could beat Oberyn without getting cut because you know The Viper is bringing in poison
Oberyn is flashy, burns too much energy needlessly, gets parried and dies, but Jaime dies of poison.
For all intents and purposes Oberyn beat The Mounrtain in one on one combat. Ironically, his drive for revenge likely cost the Dornishman the win (his life and his lover having PTSD for the 10:07 rest of her limited days). Had Oberyn used a different poison that would’ve been faster acting, something like cyanide of that day which immediately incapacitates a man to that point of foaming at the mouth and death in seconds.
Oberyn wanted to use a poison that would keep him alive long enough to confess while still suffering to the fullest.
But I don’t think he took into account The Mountain’s size but also his resilience. There’s stories about vets and forest rangers tranquillizing lions of the same size with the same anesthesia and one is knocked out immediately for an hour while the other is completely fine.
Anyways I think Oberyn figured expected the Mountain to be much less coherent and alert than he was and it cost him literally everything.
Barristan was a monster of a fighter indeed
And that was as an old man. Young Barristan sounds like the stuff of nightmares if your on the wrong side of him 😂 Thanks for watching! Liam