THOM- I've put some notes in the script about the Redwyne fleet, they might be able to carry Dany LIAM- Thanks pal I'll make mention of it in the Dany section! THOM- Can't help but notice you forgot to insert my note about the Redwyne Fleet? LIAM- Don't worry it'll be fine mate, they're not mentioned in the show I doubt any one in the comments will bring it up THE COMMENTS SECTION- ................... THOM- 🤦♂️ P.S- Thoms note was that while the Tyrells might be able to get The Redwynes to help them it isn't guaranteed by a long shot. The Lannisters are holding two of the Redwyne house hostage to stop them supporting Renly. If Stannis takes the capital at blackwater those hostages likely become his and The Redwynes are once again pinned in place and unable to help the Tyrells or worse the fleet gets turned against The Roses.
Olenna was born a Redwyne and they're bannermen to the Tyrells. There's no way they wouldn't help without having more than 2 people killed because they're hostages lol
Why did you alter the face of the actor who plays Margaery Tyrell's face in the thumbnail? Not close enough to the male-gaze fantasy-world of your minds? Boys, just keep tweaking the pictures of the real-life girls and women, and eventually you'll get your ideal blow-up doll!
The Tyrells get nothing out of it. Not only are the kingdoms far away from each other, Robb only claims the North and Riverlands. The Tyrells want the Iron Throne.
@@flavius5722Yeah, that was insane. Ain't Westeros supposed to be highly religious? Blowing up the Sept of Baelor with most if not all the high religious leaders. Not to mention the fucking QUEEN of the Seven Kingdom's being killed in the explosion. And then the suicide of King Tommen as a result of it all? The people of King's Landing by the beginning of Season 7, should've rose up in revolt against her It was foreshadowed in earlier seasons that the people would rise up. But then they just threw that plot away
The fact she poisoned Geoffrey in front of her probably softens the blow for Olena. Not to mention Cersei watching all her children die was most likely the best revenge of all.
I'm going to agree with the last option. If the Tyrells had killed off Cersei they could have made alliances with Danny and the North to ensure their power and survival. One unique thing about the Tyrells is they don't have to win outright or actually have their family's ass in the throne in order to "win" and have the power and position they want.
Exactly James, they did basically all the work and made the right moves to begin with. The W was theirs for the taking. I mean they killed Joffery I can't believe they didn't have the apple doesn't fall far from the tree mentality and have Cersei taken out once Tywin wasn't there to protect her
I'd say they should have got her at the same time as her insane little monster child. If she'd keeled over at the same time or shortly after him, Tyrion would have just been blamed for that as well - even if it's a few days later, and even assuming they don't know Tyrion's the most likely scapegoat (which they seem to be well aware of, especially given that Sansa's escape makes him look incredibly guilty and was part of the plan), if Cersei's death was attributed to a slower acting poison then whoever got the blame for Joffrey's death would almost definitely be blamed for hers too, letting them take out both of them with a minimal increase to risk of discovery. They could even get Tywin and Jaime at the same time, because the only way it looks suspicious is if the scapegoat keeps getting locked up and THEN someone else gets poisoned. This would have left Margaery supporting Tommen through his grief, while the Tyrell family moved to secure the realm in a time of upheaval as the closest, most competent, 'most loyal' advisors what remained of the Royal Family had available to them. Maybe if they were that bold a few of the more canny members of court might note that the small council was suddenly populated with Tyrells, but I wish them luck convincing Tommen it's more than his darling wife's lovely family supporting him at a time of need - emotional manipulation aside, it's quite hard to see someone as your enemy when they're single handedly propping up your throne for you with huge commitments of time, expertise, resources and most likely troops, and harder yet to move against them even if you want to.
I like that Cersei is the weakness to the Tyrells. They’re so used to clever and powerful women that they see Cersei as just a shrewd player using fear, poise, and bluster to get her way, when actually she’s a blood psychopath worse than Geoffrey. They ironically gave her *too* much credit because she was a woman, the very thing that Cersei always said she never received.
I never looked at it that way before. Thats a very neat analysis of the Tyrells thoughts regarding Cersei. It can do a similar level of damage over-estimating your opponent as it can underestimating!
She only went to be their "weakness", when the show was already dead. The conclusion of the tyrell-lanister-sparrow plot in kingslanding made zero sense.
agree to disagree she did do some horrible things way worse then what joff did they both were bad dont get me wrong but he learned from the best his mother evil spiteful person she was i dont wanna spoil anything which is why i didnt give examples but i think she far trumps him @@pinkrelik
Worth noting that while Mace comes off as unremarkable in the books it’s heavily implied that his oafishness is an act. He may not be the Queen of Thorns, but he did learn from her, and intentionally plays up his stupidity to his advantage by causing others to underestimate him, and is capable of making some sound tactical decisions in his own right, such as his actions during Robert’s Rebellion.
True, I think he is genuinely a poor military commander that skirts by with wealth in both mediums, but as a politician he isn't nearly as inept as he presents himself (at least in the books).
@@TheFandomeClips Honestly even as a military commander he doesn't seem that bad. Like sure he wasn't a great help to the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion, but it's clear House Tyrell was hedging their bets there so we shouldn't expect do. I don't think he ever really shows off his military skills one way or the other so he's probably not a military genius but I doubt he's totally inept and he certainly has some good council in the matter.
@@TheFandomeClips I'm not even sure he is a poor military commander in the books. He correctly predicts Robb Stark's future course of action repeatedly.
15:56 actually correction... the Tyrells have a HUGE fleet. Olenna's maiden name is Redwyne, and the latter house is a vassal of the Tyrells. Redwyne fleet is stated (in the books) to be one of the big three fleets of Westeros, alongside the Greyjoy and Royal fleets. Stannis actually teamed up with the Redwyne fleet to smash the Greyjoys during Balon's rebellion. Presumably the Redwyne fleet could ferry some Unsullied.
Hey GG I searched high and low for your previous comment I was going to plagiar...... I mean borrow for this video, even with third party comment filtering software and couldn't find it on the Stannis, Greyjoy or Rob Stark video :( Regarding the Redwyne fleet your correct I went back and had a look at our script and Thom had shoved a note in about them. He did however say in the note it depends on how the siege of kings landing goes. The Lannisters hold a couple of Redwynes hostage and if Stannis wins the blackwater like he does in our Dany scenario, they likely become Stannis's hostages and so the Tyrells still might not be able to make use of the fleet. Thanks for stopping by GG, If you could direct me to your previous comment where you gave me a bunch of ideas I'd love to read it to see what I did and didn't remember 😂 Liam
@@shifterverse Haha, hello again. It was in a reply under a comment by @Jeremy1860 suggesting a video like this on the Tyrells. Original comment has 70 likes. Basically I suggested that Margaery could've sat the Iron Throne herself with one little bit of luck or divine intervention at the end of Season 6, lol
A lot of fans love the roses. While I'm a big Baratheon fan (Mainly the book version of Stannis) I can see the appeal. They are an awesome house and unlike many other factions you often applaud their moves instead of face palm................................Looking at you mr king in the north 🐺 .....................both of you! Thanks for watching! Liam
The thing about the Tyrells is that despite having the same ambitions as most everyone else, they aren't cruel about it. Margaery as Queen would've genuinely been good for the Realm. Is the kindness an act? Partially, yes. But she understands that having the love of the people is worth every bit as much as their fear, especially during peace which the Tyrells are great at creating. The Tyrells are a family whose strengths supplement their personalities. They want to forge peace, and are the best at sustaining it.
I think Robb would have bent the knee to Stannis in exchange for Sansa. Eddard supported Stannis' claim to the throne and Robb would have honored that.
Renly should have taken Stannis's deal! If he had allied with Stannis they could have taken King's Landing, killed all the Lannisters, and rescued Sansa. Then they could have gone to Rob like, "Here you go Mate! We've avenged your father and brought home your sister along with Joffrey's head". I'm pretty sure Rob woulda bent the knee. The timeline of Danaerys arrival in Westeros wouldn't change, The white walker/wildling situation would have still been critical, but Stannis, Rob, and the Tyrells would have been the ones negotiating with Danaerys about how to handle the threat. All would have pledged their armies and fought instead of double crossing her like Cersei did. White walker defeated, then everybody woulda had to bend the knee to Danaerys cause DRAGONS. The End. 😂
Agreed. Give them Sansa, give them Ned's remains, offer for things to go back to the way they were before (no consequences for the northmen starting their rebellion, and generally being left alone by the south), and Robb definitely would have bent the knee.
Outside of the Starks, the Tyrells have always been my favourite Westerosi family. As such, this is a video I've been thoroughly looking forward to. Needless to say, you guys did a great job with it 😊
Thanks Jeremy! This vid nearly broke me and Thom not going to lie 😂 we wanted to do it justice but also keep it at a consumable length but also keep all the options open 😂 should have seen the orginal script would have been 3 times longer than the Stannis vid 😂 thanks for watching as usual! Liam
@@shifterverse No problem. Though I do admit, it is somewhat bittersweet. With the Tyrells off your to-do list, we don't really have any major Westerosi families left for you to do videos like this. Sure, there's Dany, but you already said how she could've won back in your Queen video. The remaining groups, Arryns, Tullys and so on, aren't really big enough players to have enough of a chance at winning the Game. Still, if this is indeed the last of these kinds of videos, at least it was a good one 😊
@@jeremy1860 we're going to have a second more in depth pass at the Lannsiters too pal and also a serious crack at the Greyjoys (if George can at the very least give us winds, as only the book Greyjoys under Euron can actually do some damage) but your right after this its Dany, Dorne, Greyjoys and Lannisters 😭 we'll have to start looking to other franchises for these style vids or maybe HOTD will give us some westeros themed how coulds 😀
@@TheFandomeClips Yeah, I've been getting into online AI art generators lately. Decided to make myself a profile picture that was basically me if I was animated by Studio Ghibli 😅
I dunno, being named Stannis' heir isn't all bad. After a decade of marriage he's had one kid, a girl with Greyscale, and doesn't look to be in a hurry of making any more kids. In many cultures, Renly would be the de facto heir, as a lot of folks prefer to raise a male heir over a female one, even if we're talking brothers/cousins/uncles over a daughter. Dornish law, where a daughter or sister could inherit, only applies in Dorne. So.... literally nothing to lose there. Two, Margaery marrying Renly still plays out. As stated earlier, if Stannis never has a son, or dies at some point, Renly becomes king. And if she marries Renly, that'd make her queen. Shireen would not inherit, and let's face it, she's likely to die anyway. Regarding Dany, the Tyrells DO have access to a fleet, via the Redwynns. The Redwynns are basically written out of the show, but they still exist, and they have the third biggest fleet in the kingdom (after the Greyjoys and Royal fleets).
During the middle seasons of the show I actually predicted Tyrell would come out on top. Olenna and Margaery were masterful. If a certain someone hadn't done something outrageous and unprecedented they definitely could have.
True but we turned off the cheat codes for this one 😂 got to give the other houses a chance, especially against a faction as overpowered as the grey joys! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@georgeprchal3924 I still don't get why he didn't just send Steppenwolf. Steppenwolf nearly took out the entire Justice League and stalemated Doomsday. Surely he can take on a few little kingdoms.
Something of note is in the books Mace may actually be a lot smarter then he seems. While he appears oafish he correctly predicted the course of action others, such as Robb Stark, would take multiple times when someone like Tyrion, who we are told and shown is very intelligent, gets wrong. I suspect the oafishness is at least partially an act, possibly so others underestimate him.
I definitely agree on the political front it may be a bit of an act, thats why we made sure to say he is at the very least competent in the books, show Mace on the other hand................ 😂
Loras and Margaery's brothers are a game changer show to book. In the show the weakness of the Tyrells was that all their eggs were in the Loras/Margaery basket
Your last scenario is the exact thing that needed to happen. Getting rid of Cersei is the winning move. Though I do think they may even be able to best Daeny if they don't kill Qyburn. They have the money to speed up production on the scorpions and Qyburn had his hand in Varys network of spies. There is no guarantee but it is possible. Only thing they then have worry about is the white walkers but I think if The North convinces Tommen which they should be able to then I think they can stop the White Walkers at the wall. It just depends on how long the war with Daeny takes.
@@Huhhh4308 After she lost Rhaegal though. This won't be the same situation. She used the sun to her advantage to avoid the initial volley because she knew of them. This also won't be mad Daenerys hell bent on burning everyone. This will be Daeny still trying to not burn everything. There is no guarantee they will win. However there is a chance because this isn't Cersei who was too arrogant.
The scorpion would only defeat Dany if we're using D&D Season 8 show logic. In reality, dragon scales are wayy to thick to be punctured by bolts. They'd need to a once in a million shot to the eye (like Dorne once did) and then do it two more times to Viserys and Rhaegal. Otherwise, Qyburn's scorpion projectiles would be more like a nuisance to Daenarys.
The only issue with the last scenario is the fact that Dany cannot have children. Loras might be her King Consort, but there is no guarantee of a half-Targaryen-half-Tyrell heir. This was never officially dispelled in the show and stands as truth in the books so far. Unless they would count on Loras outliving Dany and ruling on his own (William and Mary of Orange situation) and then using that solo rule to pass on a Tyrell heir? Alternatively, Jon's claim might come into play. If Dany names him her her, then it would be in their interest to marry Margaery to him, to actually get the full power they want.
@carastone3473 Well, at this point in time, there is no proof that the witch was lying. The show was planning on having Dany pregnant (at least there is a behind the scenes photo of Dany with a bump), but scrapped the idea in the end. So, in Show Canon, the witch was never disproven. Same in the books as of when we last see Dany. As this video assumes primarily show canon, this variable should have been mentioned. Unless Dany would keep it a secret for as long as possible and simply act surprised if no children came from her marriage? But, until proven otherwise, Dany would go on believing she was barren, so the matter of marriage unions and succession would have to be considered in this belief in mind.
The Tyrells have a large fleet, courtesy of Olenna's Redwyne family. Oh and also, Alerie is from the MAIN Hightower line and that house alone have as many vassals as the great houses and can and will use their bank and maesters against anyone threatening the Tyrells.
We've addressed that in our pinned comment, Thom did put a note in the script but i forgot to add it 😂 In the Dany scenario, The Redwynes are likely rendered impotent as the hostages the Lannisters had in kings landing to stop them supporting the Tyrells likely become hostages to Stannis. Its not a sure thing that the Redwynes would help by a longshot. Thanks for watching! Liam
That was the most drastic "push comes to shove" I've ever experienced... Lord, I never even considered that as a thing until I saw it, and now.... I can't find a better use for it. Damn. Well done.
A side note: Tyrells actually have the biggest fleet in Westeros, the Redwine fleet. They managed to assemble about 1200 ships in Dance, if I remember the numbers correctly. Not all of those were warships, but cogs would be even better for transport of a land army. So they totally can try to bring Daeneris and her armies back as quickly, as they can. Even better, they probably can also try to hire sellsales and hold on to some of their fleet at and to stave off Stannis and Ironborn raids.
They did not have that kind of fleet during the Dance. That is the number of ships at their disposal at the beginning of the books,. More specifically 200 warships and 1,000 merchant vessels.
We've addressed this in our pinned comment. The Redwynes aren't a sure thing in the Dany scenario, by quite a wide margin. The Lannisters actually hold 2 of the Redwynes hostage at kings landing at the start of the war, which is why Paxter didn't declare for Renly or help the Tyrells until they'd allied with The Lannisters. If Stannis wins Blackwater, which he likely would without Tyrell interference, those hostages likely become his hostages. At best keeping Lord Paxter pinned down again, at worst turning that fleet on the Roses. I know Olena is a Redwyne herself, but I think lord Paxter would likely place more value on his sons than his aunt, especially when linage and continuation of the family line is quite important among nobles. Thanks for watching! Liam
The simpler option is to send negotiators to all sides with the same offers. The Tyrells will remain neutral, and sell grain to all sides, but they will only deliver it using Tyrell forces. They would profit from all sides, and learn the force strength and locations of each force. No side would attack them for fear of loosing their outsourced supply lines. When it is clear which sides have a path to victory with their help, the game changes. A new offer is then made. They secure a marriage that insures a future ruler is related to them by blood. They then deliver their last grain shipment to the other sides, but taint it so their forces are not fit for battle. They turn over all force strength and location info to their new ally. While those armies are still too ill to fight, the chosen ally captures their most dangerous foes with few casualties on either side. If they capture enough nobles they might win the war by having enough hostages to force those houses to vacate the field. The treachery would cause some ill will, but they need only remind them that it resulted in less bloodshed from all sides.
Great video as usual, in-depth and consistent with the characters behavior. You guys should do another with how the High Sparrow could’ve won! It will be difficult but very entertaining.
In all honesty, the Sparrows had almost won as well - they had their claws in Tommen, and had effectively neutered the Tyrells with Lorras' induction into the Faith and Margaery being accused of perjury. They just underestimated Cersei. She should have been kept imprisoned in the sept until her trial, made to go on a walk of atonement, and then either killed or made to join the faith. With KL and the throne under their rule, expanding the Faith Militant to other parts of Westeros should be a rather trivial task - appoint a sparrow to Oldtown, and from those 2 religious centres, gradually replace the old septons and radicalize the septas and meisters. The only sticking point I see here is the North. Cat was really the only northerner with any connection to the Faith, the rest of the north being staunch believers in the Old Gods. The Boltons probably aren't interested in submitting to radical southerners who call flaying people alive 'immoral'. With time and blood, the North would probably eventually break, but with Dany and the Walkers coming, its time the faith doesn't have. Dany would probably have to accept the faith - for now. She needs to consolidate her rule before trying to tackle the faith again. Depending on how nuts Dany is at this point, she may just Maegor it and burn them all, an obvious lose condition. However, if she is still sane, she could tactfully decide to tolerate them and potentially try and deradicalize the faith in future. The walkers are also an issue, and I honestly doubt the faith would believe it. If the faith forces Dany to stay at home "you can't believe this superstitious heretical nonsense, your grace", everyone loses and humanity is doomed to an eternal night. Dany and the walkers require the faith to seriously change up their hyperagressive strategy in the beginning - since playing their hand too hard with either gets them burned, or zombified. Winning requires cautious play, which isn't consistent with how they're characterised. It requires retrospective knowledge to get the best outcome possible
I was convinced that The High Sparrow's plan was to get Cersei and Olenna out of the way, have Tommen have an "accident", eventually marry Margaery and become her consort, while puppeting her.
Am late i know, The only reason Robert was able to become king so easily is because his grandmother is a Targ, which does make him a kinslayer (technically)
"But with Margaery warming his bed, I'm sure he'll find a way to cope with his loss." Oh, I'd say having Margaery warming one's bed could make ANY man "get over" just about ANYTHING!
People always forget that the Riverlands allied themselves with the North and would have been part of their kingdom. Making their hypothetical independent kingdom huge in terms of land and rich in resources. The riverlands are a close contendant to the Reach in terms of fertility, its good land. Plus, if the Reach was parrt of that Kingdom, it would stretch from the wall to the Arbor all the way through Westeros, cutting off the crown from the Westerlands and its resources. It would be a pretty good play
Now just imagining a Tyrell servant having charge in on Margaery every time Cersei's about to come by, hissing the warning, "Watch yourself, my lady! The B**** is back!"
instead of sitting back during the war of the 5 kings, they focused on capturing tywin and the mountain. (probably when rob was trying to draw him in) tyrells attack the lanistars and hand both over to the dornish, the bad blood would be forgiven. a bond between dorne, tyrells and starks backing danny with marriage to loras and margey to rob/willis sounds ideal in my mind.
sitting back is the best move you can do. why needlessly waste your troops? though i would have sat back entirely out of the war. The Dany thing I would still do, but with an untouched fresh army.
@@godemperorofmankind3.091 I get what you mean but I don't think it's a waste to use your soldiers in a couple battles or maybe even only a siege of harrenhal when it's strengthening your position. Like it's said in ASOIAF "You do not need to win," Tyrion told him. "All you need to do is raise your banners, rally your supporters, and hold, until Daenerys arrives to join her strength to yours." I think sitting back makes you less flexible, less appealing to Dany.
The Tyrells were a necessary component to Daenerys's arrival to Westeros. Were the Tyrells to remain in a strong position with Renly, Stannis or Tommen, Dany would never get to Westeros. The logic is in Daenerys's progress in Season 6. The 100,000 Dothraki were a massive gain, but introduced a new liability: no single fleet could bring Daenerys's forces to Westeros. She needed the ships she seized from the Slavers, *PLUS* the ships from Yara Greyjoy, Dorne and the Tyrells. Were the Tyrells to remain in a position of influence with the Baratheons (or Tommen 'Lannister') Daenerys's arrival would be delayed long enough for the North to be brought to heel and the Ice Zombies to be dealt with. By that time, the Tyrells could depose Stannis (if they had marriage ties through Renly and Shireen) or Cersei (if they had marriage ties through Tommen). While they'd lack a competent commander to counter Daenerys's army, Daenerys would be facing a united Westeros that just survived the Long Night in her absence, leaving her to be seen as a foreign invader with a foreign army. She could easily seize King's Landing, but would face assassination threats at every turn.
Tbh I dont think Margaery would have to do much to get control the North is a Marg/Tommen scenario. Sansa was de-facto in charge up there as Lady of Winterfell, with the Vale armies more there for her than for Jon, and Sansa has a pre-existing, positive, relationship with Margaery. She trusted Margaery back in King's Landing and viewed her as a friend. In contrast, she immediately distrusted Daenerys. Asked to choose between Margaery and Daenerys, Sansa probably pushes the North into league with Margaery. If Littlefinger still has any influence, he probably agrees with that anyway since he's worked with the Tyrells before. Better the devil you know than the one you don't... and the one taking advice from old-rival Varys.
Easy mistake to make, but stannis would already have had warning of the northern threats, even with a 1000 men under his command he marched north to protect the realms of man from the wildlings, imagine if he had the might of the 7 kingdoms behind him!
Starks and tyrell is literally the most perfect match... Starks terms: Side with us, and overthrow the lannisters. As soon as we are done, we go back to north. You take the Iron throne for yourselves, (who the fuck is powerfull enough to even try anything funny against the tyrells at the end lf it all, lannisters gone and stannis army lost at the battle of blackwaters) afterwards you guys leave us alone, and agree to officiate the north as independant. Tyrells wouldn't get the iron throne through and marriage. They would literally get the iron throne to themself.
The Tyrells were trying to remove Cersei from King's Landing back to Casterly Rock. Albeit by manipulating Tommen. They already assassinated Joffrey, if Cersei died then it would look suspicious on the Tyrell's end. But yeah, they underestimated how far Cersei was willing to go to secure power. Then again, so did the Reynes and Tarbecks underestimate how far Tywin was willing to go to secure power.
Step 1 margery encourages joffery into becomeing in another mad king by encouraging his sadism, Step 2 the tyrels lead another rebellion under the gyze of saving margery Step 3 kill joffery and kill cercei Step 4 use margery’s popularity to get her a claim to the throne and for good measure marry her to stanis or someone like that Step 5 profit
One point, if Tommen bends the knee, they should make him being named the Lord of Storms End and the storm lands part of the deal, I mean, it makes sense, he would technically be considered the heir (assuming his bastard status is kept hush hush) and that way the political marriage with Margaery still has value. I don't know if Dany would go for it but if she would that would be swell.
Very neat idea Seras! Tommen is quite soft, I can't see him worrying Dany of he was offered that. Not sure Margery would be happy about it though, but then again at that point in the game, without dragons she'll have to take what she can get 😂
15:58 What do you mean they have no big fleet?! One of their vassals, the Redwynes (as in the family of Olenna Redwyne), literally have the biggest fleet in all of Westeros.
In the books the twin heirs of house redwyn are held hostage in the Red Keep. The Redwyns were in a deadlock. Wich was only resolved after house Tyrell and Lannister allied with each other. Afterwards it gets complicated but boils down to Cercei fucks things up.
[Rant] The one problem i have with the major castles of Westeros is that all of them are portrayed as these unassailable beasts. Seriously, 6/8of the main houses have seats that are renowned for being a difficult seige to the point where Kings Landing and the Red Keep look like its a pathetic keep. Realistically High Garden and Winterfell would have no real defence from natural formations beyond good sightlines. Winterfell would only be notably resistent to a seige because of big food stores and the geothermal springs under neath, meaning the defence comes from the cold more than anything else (and would make for both a lot more menace in the house words and a far more interesting climac in choosing to stay at winterfel to fight the Night King when the main advantages dont mean much). High Garden is just a rich boy hold, and whilst they sorta have a Theodosian Walls thing going on, they lack all the reasons why those walls made Constantinople so hard to seige. "Oh theres maze between two walls", well if its a hedge maze the seiging army would just carve through it with torch, pitch and axe, and if its solid theyd build an ager and just go over. Given the Reach has the largest army, its main strength should be that its the biggest castle after Harrenhall and has the men to man it, meaning its not the castle so much as the man power. Seriously though, besides Pyke and Sunspear, all the major seats are these impregnable goliaths that just takes away from how impregnable thr Erie is. Riverun, High Garden, Winterfell, and Casterly Rock should not be given the reverencr for defence that they have, and more just a highlighted gimmick. "Beseiging winterfell? Do it in summer or youre screwed!", "High Garden? As long as there banners arent raised your good!", "River Run? Get some sheild men on boats and hit the dock." "Casterly Rock? Best get them all out cos those tunnels run deep." I get the Erie being defencable, its all the Vale has to ascribe its success (Seriously, cavalry in a very rocky mountainous are?) And i have a soft spot for storms end because the tapered walls shown in those lore videos the cast did looked great and the whole founding myth is that the gods couldnt tear it down, plus hqving a defended port , stormy weather, and limited areas to beseige from is a good choice. The rest need to lose the rep. TL;DR - Storms End and the Erie should be the only seats with particularly renowned defences as having so many takes away from its meaning and really makes the Capital look kinda crap.
The wild card in this scenario is the North-returning Sansa and providing justice for Ned would probably be enough to acquiesce in the Baratheon Bros pact. But when Dany shows up and the Tyrells swap sides? Westeros suffers through the worst internal conflict since the Dance; Highgarden, Dorne, and whoever controls the Westerlands (presumably a lesser Lannister like Lancel or Devan are appointed after Tywin’s line is liquidated; unfortunately I can’t see Kevan surviving such a purge) with Dany, while the North, the Riverlands, and of course the Stormlands remain loyal to the Crowned Stag. And then the Walkers show up. Gg, Tyrells. You won, but at what cost?
Howdy as always Warlord! Thats the thing, Sansa is a bit of a valuable game piece. I think Rob and Cat would definitely be open tot rejoining the fold upon her return. I'm not sure how the other Northern lords like the Greatjon would feel about giving up their new found independence though! Thanks for tuning in as usual my friend! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsRobb probably will kill a couple of his major lords like Karstark and internal infighting begins plus his whole marrying a foreigner instead who he was promised too shows a lack of keeping his word
I have to agree with your analysis of the tyrells not having a strong fleet, if I remember correctly it's tyrells have the redwyne fleet which is the third largest in westeros
It would be simple with Tyrell’s. Loras betrothed to Stannis’ daughter and then marry Rob and Margery would unit the South and North if the Lannisters are dead. If Sansa is saved in the siege of Kings Landing, Stannis can use her to get Rob to bend the knee since Joffrey will be dead and meet them half way and grant them more autonomy like Dorne. As well all of the Lannister army should be banished to the wall. This way you win over the Night’s Watch and the North as a whole.
We've addressed this in our pinned comment Pro. Thom did put a note on the script file but I forgot to insert it into the actual text like a dumbass. Basically the Redwynes aren't a sure thing, by a longshot. The Lannisters hold 2 of the Redwynes hostage at kings landing which pins Lord Paxter in place and prevents him aiding the Tyrells in their support of Renly. If Stannis wins blackwater like he likely would in the Dany scenario those hostages have a high chance of becoming his, which at best keeps the Redwynes pinned, at worst turns the Redwyne fleet against The Roses. Thanks for watching! Liam
5:48 I’m not sure the Shireen/Loras arrangement would go through? Selyse is a Florent, a disgruntled vassal house to the Tyrells. They have beef with them because, before Aegon’s Conquest, house Tyrell was a hereditary steward to the Gardner kings of the Reach, with whom they occasionally intermarried. House Florent claims the title of Wardens of the South through stronger blood ties to the former kings; instead, Aegon gave it to the Tyrells because a Tyrell surrendered the Reach to him instead of joining the Gardner family BBQ at the Fields of Fire, in which House Florent was likely involved on the losing side. Basically, they was robbed. I wouldn’t be surprised if they only joined Stannis because he promised them that position once he sat on the Iron Throne, so such an arrangement would make them go apeshit.
Love it. Been waiting for it 😊 Though i admit I do like book tyrells 😊 Have you done a renly one? Or dorne? Or how about how Dany could've won at various points if tywin was Alive and the cannon if he was dead? 😊
@@shifterverse I'm silly. I forgot about renly 😂 Thx though. The other Two should be interesting shouldn't they? Especially the dillema if tywin was or not to Face Dany plus dornes desire for revenge 😊
@@alanmike6883 absolutely Dany is a tough one, she's basically got the "I Win" card when it comes to conquest, its trying to arrange her moves so she doesn't go mad and learns some humility in her journey 😂
@@shifterverse True but as we learnt the dragon's weren't completely invulnerable. Plus there's Still debate whether Weir wood tree arrows could be used. If tywin was alive he'd probably come up with a strategy of sacrifice major settlements to take out the dragons 😁
At some point Rob would have come to the realization that for the north to remain free he needs to take the Iron throne. He's mother would also have helped him come to that conclusion.
The Tyrells DO have a big fleet; their bannerman Lord Redwynes fleet is the largest in the Seven Kingdoms after the decimation on the Blackwater. He didnt take part since his sons were Cersie's hostages, but assuming they survived the storming of the Red Keep, Stannis would demand their father's fealty as well.
The stags and roses dealing with Robb I feel largely depends on who survives taking the capital as getting sansa and to be the one who swings the sword on the remaining lannister's could get them to bend the knee since their goals are mostly complete with an exception of being independent.
If they had all their family members from the books. 2 extra brothers that were pretty strong. One is crippled but powerful politically. He was friends with Oberyn. Then there’s the other one i don’t know much about. Garlan and Willas iirc…
15:59 excuse me what? I know in the show their naval might is never shown but in the books which you've quoted a lot, the tyrells vassals, namely the hightowers and redwynes have a huge fleet that competes with the ironborn.
Thom did make a note of this on the script but i forgot to insert it 😂 The Redwyne fleet is impotent and unable to do jack because the Lannisters hold Paxters sons at the red keep. Stannis wins Blackwater those hostages likely become his and thus best case the fleet stays impotent, worst case Stannis forces Paxter to use it against the Tyrells.
This was very interesting. Now, I’ll have to disagree with the options chosen though. Remember that wars are won in multiple ways, or a combination: army strength (numbers), rations, cunning, gold, and love OR fear of the people. The Tyrell’s all of these. Because of how they are described in the books, it is HEAVILY implied that the Bravoosi are very against another Valyrian empire. The House of Black and White sent assassins to kill the masters and if we deduce hints it was they who murdered the Valyrian magicians who held the fires back, causing the Doom of Valyria. Why do I say this? They would assassinate her. Daenerys is not actually a very cunning person, she just relies on military and her dragons. A person wearing the face of a trusted friend would kill her likely even before she arrives in Westeros given how much Renly agreed with this plan. So Daenerys would not be a factor in their endgame. King’s Landing would still be standing.
I actually never got why the Tyrells were so...ambitious - (in the show at least, I'm not so sure about the books) Olenna directly blames Mace "wanting his daughter to be Queen", but then everything we see after that statement heavily suggests that if Olenna didn't approve of the idea it wouldn't have actually happened. But consider their position of "Doing nothing" - they are the Lords Paramount of the Kingdom in Westeros which produces the vast majority of the continents food, the most valuable resource in existence for a society. And unlike the Lannisters gold mines, their fields aren't running out of food any time soon and (barring unsustainable farming, which we can assume isn't employed given how long that region has already been farmed, or a random climate disaster) so their source of wealth is entirely secure. They are rich, respected and can essentially live entirely carefree in the middle of a land of plenty, not to mention already have the military and naval strength that nobody wants to make an enemy of them for the sake of it. They might not be on the throne, but they're actually better off where they are - The Reach doesn't need Crown support in any way, shape or form and they can quite securely trust that as long as they're not making waves no Monarch wants to risk the supply wagons stopping. They have very little to gain by joining the Royal Family, and are instead removing themselves from a safe seat in paradise in order to constantly scrabble to maintain control of a den of vipers. Beyond "Status" they really seem to have nothing to gain, and everything to lose, and I never understood why Olenna thought it was a good idea unless Mace actually DID go "But my little Princess deserves to be a Queen!", ignored his mother and waded into the war against her wishes. The other six kingdoms could be burning around them in the most devastating war of conquest the world has ever seen, and as long as the Tyrells stayed out of it they'd pretty much ALWAYS be able to just pledge their crops to whoever won and be fine, so long as that person didn't personally hate them and wasn't flat out insane and liable to kill everyone on a whim. Not to mention, even if the other six Kingdoms were at War, if the Tyrells stay out of it then nobody's going to want to poke the sleeping dragon and risk their armies siding against them, and you can't even ravage their lands because if you do you're just guaranteeing there's no food for anyone when you win - burning the Riverlands caused a famine in the Riverlands. Burning the Reach would cause a famine EVERYWHERE, so NOBODY will want to do it. They've basically already got the best and most secure position of anyone in Westeros, and all they have to do is not give anyone a reason to take it from them and it's pretty much "Happily ever after" from there.
I suppose the issue I have with the Tyrell-Lannister alliance plan, is when to get rid of Cersei and how? If we are poisoning her after Joffery's death then people will likely get suspicious and the Tyrells risk getting caught. I suppose you could hire a faceless man to do it but two royal asassinations would still tip people off risks some of the same things. The safest bet I could see is if the Tyrells remove Cersei with Joffery where the crown likely just pins the deaths on Tyrion. But that also requires the Tyrells to properly estimate her alongside Joffery which I doubt they'd do. Afterall, if they could assess her threat level accurately like they did the boy king in the show, why didn't they in the OG story?
Well would it be soo weird if the queen mother, a known alcoholic, died of overdose after the death of her precious boy? Wink wink, and I would add more people don’t like Cersei than they do so I would question how much they would put in the effort to investigate further, I’m not sure even if Tywin would do it
However, I think I found a solution; Marry Cersei to Loras before the purple wedding. Doing this would allow them to take Cersei away to high garden after the trial and where’d they have more exclusivity to Tommen and no Cersei in KL. And even if she causes trouble at high garden, then she can simply befall an accident with an investigation at the control of house Tyrell.
All I know is that if Tywin had just put Cersei in her place and capitalized fully on the prodigious political and strategic skills Tyrion brought to the table the Lannisters would have won.
That's pretty much the only way outside of dragons to beat the Starks is to give them a reason to drive south of Moat Cailin (Which drove back every southern army in history). Robb would've been able to kick his feet up and relax if his mother wasn't a Tully, and they didn't have to save any family members.
Question from someone who has a beginner level knowledge of the ASOIAF and the GOT/HOTD series. Are the Hightowers still relevant by the time we reach the GOT era (Robert’s Reign)? Would they be comfortable with the Tyrells (a lesser house in the Reach that was elevated by Aegon) to possess such power that they once possessed?
Yes and yes , Mace 's wife ( in the books) is a Hightower , if you want to know more check the channel Fantasy Heaven Asoiaf , they have a short and very well written episode about house Hightower history(one about the valeryon too)
The Tyrells, are quite interesting since they have lot's and lot's of vassals and depending on how loyal those vassals are going to be in a different timeline, that probably could decide what the Tyrells would do.... or they could just use the Vale strat of just chilling in peace
Easier option. Robb marries Margery and then gives the Tyrells the Iron Throne when they kill the Lannisters, while Robb rules the North and maybe Riverlands. Alternatively he could take the throne himself if need be.
In a way, the Tyrells were on top for a time. When Marjory had her claws in Joffrey and also Tommen, who ruled , they had more control over the kingdom than Tywin did. And they were richer. Then the fanatics came.
Tywin was very likely dead regardless of Tyrions actions. The theroy that Oberyn had poisoned him during his visit is only really called a theroy because it hasn't been outright confirmed yet 😂 but I agree Tywin was the lynch pin of the lions, he was the only one with the mindset to keep the Lannisters on top!
@@Random_Wierdo. the only person she loved is herself. She neglected tommen and myrcella, to the point that as soon as anyone shows them any forme of care and attention they fall for them. Biggest example being tommen himself that fell in love with margaery just because she gifted him a cat ,was nice to him and nothing more. The show tried to give Cersei a bit of redemption by making her a ‘loving’ mother and margaery a seductress but the point still stands lol she ‘loved’ him so much she lead him to suicide
The white walkers could have used giants to break the gates of the wall just like mance almost did and with bran being south of the wall, the walls magic is basically useless.
I think the wall has some kind of seal on it that prevents white walkers crossing the threshold. But 100% they had a plan to get through that didn't involve dragons.
Some fans would've liked to c Margery meet Daenerys. I would think she would have Marg as the very 1st woman hand in all of history. And Tyrion can b the master of law.
Question: if the Tyrells sit out book 2, do you think Renly still crowns himself king? I don't see the motivation being as strong with like half the stormlords. And I know you were focused on show canon but Wyllas in the books is friends with Ob
IMO Renly only crowns himself due to the backing of the Tyrells. I’m sure he shows Ned a painting of Margery as a potential scheme to replace Cersei as Roberts wife. Wyllas actually doesn’t have a grudge against Oberyn which is a great point and possible Alliance deal with Dorne between him and Duran doesn’t seem a Stretch - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips in further of that, I believe Arianna (misspell) even tried to seduce Wyllas at some point hoping to make him her husband. Wyllas seemed uninterested, either implying him and Oberdyn are closer than we think ;) or he i aware of some of the Martell machinations. I think the former is more likely.
The weakness of the reach is its strength. Rich in and and people, there are many great house as great if not greater than the Tyrells. If not united behind a strong warden, they have much to lose to their powerful vassals that eye their power eagerly. In contrast to the lannisters and sharks, they have far less influence over their vassal houses. That’s why the reach rarely intervenes fully into conflicts, in fear of great losses.
If Stannis doesn't have Sansa, any chance of defeating Robb long-term is gone. He's way too good at fighting, and in the worst-case scenario, he lets the Riverlands go, pulls back north, and tells Stannis to have fun with Moat Cailin and the crannogmen. Getting through the swamps is basically impossible (southron armies have been trying and failing for millennia), which leaves the possibility of a naval invasion. Despite Theon's "success," this also isn't a great option, since the North is so damn MASSIVE that it's hard to even march an army through, let alone occupy, and every village and keep is going to be resisting. Even if Stannis manages to get his giant, unwieldy army to Winterfell, he's going to find out the very hard way why it's called that, because winter is going to hit soon, and there is no better fortress to be in when that happens. There's no natural cover to take shelter in around the walls, the castle has natural heating and enough grain supplies to last years, and winter in the North is a frozen hell. Oh, and there's a few hundred thousand northerners who REALLY want you gone. Stannis is going to have to content himself with retaking the Riverlands, quashing the Ironborn, and then preparing for Dany. Meanwhile, Robb is gonna have his work cut out fighting wights and Others, but on the plus side he's doing it side-by-side with his bro Jon, so there's that.
The Starks would have been an option. Why? Robb wants Joffrey's head, his sisters and to go home. If he had a powerful ally help him achieve that, he'd probably not mind said ally sitting the southern throne after they are done. Olenna would be smart enough to let the North stay independent, but remind Robb that he needs trade and with a Tyrell on the Iron Throne, and allied with Robb, Robb gets the trade, the Tyrells the throne, and everyone else loses.
Hear me out, i think dany couldve landed with the unsullied as youve forgot to mention the rewyne fleet which is a large and formidable fleet. And given a little research on late middle ages ship transports i'd say about 200 ships could carry the unsullied. Tge redwyne fleet likely has that as its said to be the 3rd best fleet behind the royal fleet and the iron fleet.
Actually the redwyne fleet is not the only one în Reach , the houses of Hightower and Costayne also have fleets , so in the end the Reach has the biggest fleet in Westeros (maybe the world) , wich is logic because they have so much coastline and islands After reading Fire and Blood the dragons are no longer much of a treath
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THOM- I've put some notes in the script about the Redwyne fleet, they might be able to carry Dany
LIAM- Thanks pal I'll make mention of it in the Dany section!
THOM- Can't help but notice you forgot to insert my note about the Redwyne Fleet?
LIAM- Don't worry it'll be fine mate, they're not mentioned in the show I doubt any one in the comments will bring it up
THE COMMENTS SECTION- ...................
THOM- 🤦♂️
P.S- Thoms note was that while the Tyrells might be able to get The Redwynes to help them it isn't guaranteed by a long shot. The Lannisters are holding two of the Redwyne house hostage to stop them supporting Renly. If Stannis takes the capital at blackwater those hostages likely become his and The Redwynes are once again pinned in place and unable to help the Tyrells or worse the fleet gets turned against The Roses.
Make a video about how Daenerys Targaryen can win
Olenna was born a Redwyne and they're bannermen to the Tyrells. There's no way they wouldn't help without having more than 2 people killed because they're hostages lol
Why did you alter the face of the actor who plays Margaery Tyrell's face in the thumbnail? Not close enough to the male-gaze fantasy-world of your minds? Boys, just keep tweaking the pictures of the real-life girls and women, and eventually you'll get your ideal blow-up doll!
@@varana1239 Dragons go brr
Robb Stark with the political backup of Margaery as his wife would be unstoppable.
Possibly. If they could Convince him to stay South. Just not sure he has the appetite for it 😅 - Thom
The North offers the Reach little. They are far away with sparse goods for trading
Except Robb wasn’t fighting for the Iron Throne. He just wanted the North to remain independent and to get his sisters back.
They would've made a cute couple too.
The Tyrells get nothing out of it. Not only are the kingdoms far away from each other, Robb only claims the North and Riverlands. The Tyrells want the Iron Throne.
Let´s recognize it, Olena not even TRYING to kill Cersei was a total plot conveinence
the fact that the poulation of KL didnt kill her after she blow up the sept , is more than conveince
@@flavius5722Yeah, that was insane. Ain't Westeros supposed to be highly religious? Blowing up the Sept of Baelor with most if not all the high religious leaders. Not to mention the fucking QUEEN of the Seven Kingdom's being killed in the explosion.
And then the suicide of King Tommen as a result of it all? The people of King's Landing by the beginning of Season 7, should've rose up in revolt against her
It was foreshadowed in earlier seasons that the people would rise up. But then they just threw that plot away
The fact she poisoned Geoffrey in front of her probably softens the blow for Olena. Not to mention Cersei watching all her children die was most likely the best revenge of all.
@@craigturner6565 who's Geoffrey?
@@tommsey_ttv cmon bro...
I'm going to agree with the last option. If the Tyrells had killed off Cersei they could have made alliances with Danny and the North to ensure their power and survival. One unique thing about the Tyrells is they don't have to win outright or actually have their family's ass in the throne in order to "win" and have the power and position they want.
Exactly James, they did basically all the work and made the right moves to begin with. The W was theirs for the taking. I mean they killed Joffery I can't believe they didn't have the apple doesn't fall far from the tree mentality and have Cersei taken out once Tywin wasn't there to protect her
Exactly! It's how they came to power the 1st place. They are actually Andals who decided to serve and bide their time until Aegon raised them up.
I'd say they should have got her at the same time as her insane little monster child. If she'd keeled over at the same time or shortly after him, Tyrion would have just been blamed for that as well - even if it's a few days later, and even assuming they don't know Tyrion's the most likely scapegoat (which they seem to be well aware of, especially given that Sansa's escape makes him look incredibly guilty and was part of the plan), if Cersei's death was attributed to a slower acting poison then whoever got the blame for Joffrey's death would almost definitely be blamed for hers too, letting them take out both of them with a minimal increase to risk of discovery.
They could even get Tywin and Jaime at the same time, because the only way it looks suspicious is if the scapegoat keeps getting locked up and THEN someone else gets poisoned.
This would have left Margaery supporting Tommen through his grief, while the Tyrell family moved to secure the realm in a time of upheaval as the closest, most competent, 'most loyal' advisors what remained of the Royal Family had available to them.
Maybe if they were that bold a few of the more canny members of court might note that the small council was suddenly populated with Tyrells, but I wish them luck convincing Tommen it's more than his darling wife's lovely family supporting him at a time of need - emotional manipulation aside, it's quite hard to see someone as your enemy when they're single handedly propping up your throne for you with huge commitments of time, expertise, resources and most likely troops, and harder yet to move against them even if you want to.
I like that Cersei is the weakness to the Tyrells. They’re so used to clever and powerful women that they see Cersei as just a shrewd player using fear, poise, and bluster to get her way, when actually she’s a blood psychopath worse than Geoffrey. They ironically gave her *too* much credit because she was a woman, the very thing that Cersei always said she never received.
I never looked at it that way before. Thats a very neat analysis of the Tyrells thoughts regarding Cersei. It can do a similar level of damage over-estimating your opponent as it can underestimating!
she’s not worse than joffrey at all. in the show, at least
@@pinkrelik That’s fair. But by the end I’d say she’s def as bad.
She only went to be their "weakness", when the show was already dead.
The conclusion of the tyrell-lanister-sparrow plot in kingslanding made zero sense.
agree to disagree she did do some horrible things way worse then what joff did they both were bad dont get me wrong but he learned from the best his mother evil spiteful person she was i dont wanna spoil anything which is why i didnt give examples but i think she far trumps him @@pinkrelik
Worth noting that while Mace comes off as unremarkable in the books it’s heavily implied that his oafishness is an act. He may not be the Queen of Thorns, but he did learn from her, and intentionally plays up his stupidity to his advantage by causing others to underestimate him, and is capable of making some sound tactical decisions in his own right, such as his actions during Robert’s Rebellion.
True, I think he is genuinely a poor military commander that skirts by with wealth in both mediums, but as a politician he isn't nearly as inept as he presents himself (at least in the books).
@@TheFandomeClips Honestly even as a military commander he doesn't seem that bad. Like sure he wasn't a great help to the Targaryens during Robert's Rebellion, but it's clear House Tyrell was hedging their bets there so we shouldn't expect do. I don't think he ever really shows off his military skills one way or the other so he's probably not a military genius but I doubt he's totally inept and he certainly has some good council in the matter.
@@TheFandomeClips I'm not even sure he is a poor military commander in the books. He correctly predicts Robb Stark's future course of action repeatedly.
@@TheTank1900while Mace might not be special in term of strategies, he also has access to an excellent strategist Randyl Tally
And after speaking with her once, Tyrion wonders wether or not her husband rode off a cliff intentionally.
15:56 actually correction... the Tyrells have a HUGE fleet. Olenna's maiden name is Redwyne, and the latter house is a vassal of the Tyrells. Redwyne fleet is stated (in the books) to be one of the big three fleets of Westeros, alongside the Greyjoy and Royal fleets. Stannis actually teamed up with the Redwyne fleet to smash the Greyjoys during Balon's rebellion. Presumably the Redwyne fleet could ferry some Unsullied.
Well said, was going to mention this 👍
Hey GG I searched high and low for your previous comment I was going to plagiar...... I mean borrow for this video, even with third party comment filtering software and couldn't find it on the Stannis, Greyjoy or Rob Stark video :( Regarding the Redwyne fleet your correct I went back and had a look at our script and Thom had shoved a note in about them. He did however say in the note it depends on how the siege of kings landing goes. The Lannisters hold a couple of Redwynes hostage and if Stannis wins the blackwater like he does in our Dany scenario, they likely become Stannis's hostages and so the Tyrells still might not be able to make use of the fleet. Thanks for stopping by GG, If you could direct me to your previous comment where you gave me a bunch of ideas I'd love to read it to see what I did and didn't remember 😂 Liam
@@shifterverse Haha, hello again. It was in a reply under a comment by @Jeremy1860 suggesting a video like this on the Tyrells. Original comment has 70 likes. Basically I suggested that Margaery could've sat the Iron Throne herself with one little bit of luck or divine intervention at the end of Season 6, lol
Alongside the Arbor, Hightower a banner house of Highgarden controlls Oldtown and yet another massive fleet
@@Salmon_Based Margaery's mother was a Hightower so the Hightower lord would likely help his grandkids out
I wanted the Tyrells to win, they were the best family.
Frey family is the best. All hail king Walda
@@klemens3564 Baratheon's rule!!! all hail the One True King! 🔥🔥🔥
A lot of fans love the roses. While I'm a big Baratheon fan (Mainly the book version of Stannis) I can see the appeal. They are an awesome house and unlike many other factions you often applaud their moves instead of face palm................................Looking at you mr king in the north 🐺 .....................both of you! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@klemens3564
Walda would be a Queen.
The thing about the Tyrells is that despite having the same ambitions as most everyone else, they aren't cruel about it. Margaery as Queen would've genuinely been good for the Realm. Is the kindness an act? Partially, yes. But she understands that having the love of the people is worth every bit as much as their fear, especially during peace which the Tyrells are great at creating. The Tyrells are a family whose strengths supplement their personalities. They want to forge peace, and are the best at sustaining it.
I think Robb would have bent the knee to Stannis in exchange for Sansa. Eddard supported Stannis' claim to the throne and Robb would have honored that.
true 👍🏽
Not only that if you send them Ned's bones and offer to help reclaim the north I think you have a great shot of them bending the knee
Nahhhh rob didn’t seem to care about his sisters. He wouldn’t use the king slayer to bargain for their return so why would he bend the knee?
Renly should have taken Stannis's deal! If he had allied with Stannis they could have taken King's Landing, killed all the Lannisters, and rescued Sansa. Then they could have gone to Rob like, "Here you go Mate! We've avenged your father and brought home your sister along with Joffrey's head". I'm pretty sure Rob woulda bent the knee. The timeline of Danaerys arrival in Westeros wouldn't change, The white walker/wildling situation would have still been critical, but Stannis, Rob, and the Tyrells would have been the ones negotiating with Danaerys about how to handle the threat. All would have pledged their armies and fought instead of double crossing her like Cersei did. White walker defeated, then everybody woulda had to bend the knee to Danaerys cause DRAGONS. The End. 😂
Agreed. Give them Sansa, give them Ned's remains, offer for things to go back to the way they were before (no consequences for the northmen starting their rebellion, and generally being left alone by the south), and Robb definitely would have bent the knee.
Outside of the Starks, the Tyrells have always been my favourite Westerosi family. As such, this is a video I've been thoroughly looking forward to. Needless to say, you guys did a great job with it 😊
Thanks Jeremy! This vid nearly broke me and Thom not going to lie 😂 we wanted to do it justice but also keep it at a consumable length but also keep all the options open 😂 should have seen the orginal script would have been 3 times longer than the Stannis vid 😂 thanks for watching as usual! Liam
@@shifterverse No problem. Though I do admit, it is somewhat bittersweet. With the Tyrells off your to-do list, we don't really have any major Westerosi families left for you to do videos like this. Sure, there's Dany, but you already said how she could've won back in your Queen video. The remaining groups, Arryns, Tullys and so on, aren't really big enough players to have enough of a chance at winning the Game.
Still, if this is indeed the last of these kinds of videos, at least it was a good one 😊
@@jeremy1860 we're going to have a second more in depth pass at the Lannsiters too pal and also a serious crack at the Greyjoys (if George can at the very least give us winds, as only the book Greyjoys under Euron can actually do some damage) but your right after this its Dany, Dorne, Greyjoys and Lannisters 😭 we'll have to start looking to other franchises for these style vids or maybe HOTD will give us some westeros themed how coulds 😀
Jeremy looks different without the Spyro the dragon avatar 👀😂 - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips Yeah, I've been getting into online AI art generators lately. Decided to make myself a profile picture that was basically me if I was animated by Studio Ghibli 😅
Its crazy that even for the Tyrells, Stannis and Renly burying the hatchet basically guarantees a Stag and Roasa victory.
I dunno, being named Stannis' heir isn't all bad. After a decade of marriage he's had one kid, a girl with Greyscale, and doesn't look to be in a hurry of making any more kids. In many cultures, Renly would be the de facto heir, as a lot of folks prefer to raise a male heir over a female one, even if we're talking brothers/cousins/uncles over a daughter. Dornish law, where a daughter or sister could inherit, only applies in Dorne. So.... literally nothing to lose there.
Two, Margaery marrying Renly still plays out. As stated earlier, if Stannis never has a son, or dies at some point, Renly becomes king. And if she marries Renly, that'd make her queen. Shireen would not inherit, and let's face it, she's likely to die anyway.
Regarding Dany, the Tyrells DO have access to a fleet, via the Redwynns. The Redwynns are basically written out of the show, but they still exist, and they have the third biggest fleet in the kingdom (after the Greyjoys and Royal fleets).
During the middle seasons of the show I actually predicted Tyrell would come out on top. Olenna and Margaery were masterful.
If a certain someone hadn't done something outrageous and unprecedented they definitely could have.
So early, the Greyjoys were conquering the world with their teleporting ships
True but we turned off the cheat codes for this one 😂 got to give the other houses a chance, especially against a faction as overpowered as the grey joys! Thanks for watching! Liam
It's a boom tube. Clearly Darkseid is involved.
@@georgeprchal3924 I still don't get why he didn't just send Steppenwolf. Steppenwolf nearly took out the entire Justice League and stalemated Doomsday. Surely he can take on a few little kingdoms.
Something of note is in the books Mace may actually be a lot smarter then he seems. While he appears oafish he correctly predicted the course of action others, such as Robb Stark, would take multiple times when someone like Tyrion, who we are told and shown is very intelligent, gets wrong. I suspect the oafishness is at least partially an act, possibly so others underestimate him.
I definitely agree on the political front it may be a bit of an act, thats why we made sure to say he is at the very least competent in the books, show Mace on the other hand................ 😂
@@TheFandomeClipsYeah show Mace is...
well he is entertaining
Loras and Margaery's brothers are a game changer show to book. In the show the weakness of the Tyrells was that all their eggs were in the Loras/Margaery basket
Your last scenario is the exact thing that needed to happen. Getting rid of Cersei is the winning move. Though I do think they may even be able to best Daeny if they don't kill Qyburn. They have the money to speed up production on the scorpions and Qyburn had his hand in Varys network of spies. There is no guarantee but it is possible. Only thing they then have worry about is the white walkers but I think if The North convinces Tommen which they should be able to then I think they can stop the White Walkers at the wall. It just depends on how long the war with Daeny takes.
Agreed. Yeeting Cersei early on would have been good, correction great for EVERYONE.
Yeah but Dany wiped out the Scorpions with just drogon
@@Huhhh4308 After she lost Rhaegal though. This won't be the same situation. She used the sun to her advantage to avoid the initial volley because she knew of them. This also won't be mad Daenerys hell bent on burning everyone. This will be Daeny still trying to not burn everything. There is no guarantee they will win. However there is a chance because this isn't Cersei who was too arrogant.
The scorpion would only defeat Dany if we're using D&D Season 8 show logic. In reality, dragon scales are wayy to thick to be punctured by bolts. They'd need to a once in a million shot to the eye (like Dorne once did) and then do it two more times to Viserys and Rhaegal. Otherwise, Qyburn's scorpion projectiles would be more like a nuisance to Daenarys.
The only issue with the last scenario is the fact that Dany cannot have children. Loras might be her King Consort, but there is no guarantee of a half-Targaryen-half-Tyrell heir. This was never officially dispelled in the show and stands as truth in the books so far. Unless they would count on Loras outliving Dany and ruling on his own (William and Mary of Orange situation) and then using that solo rule to pass on a Tyrell heir? Alternatively, Jon's claim might come into play. If Dany names him her her, then it would be in their interest to marry Margaery to him, to actually get the full power they want.
A witch told Dany she couldn’t have kids. We don’t know for a fact that it’s true.
@carastone3473 Well, at this point in time, there is no proof that the witch was lying. The show was planning on having Dany pregnant (at least there is a behind the scenes photo of Dany with a bump), but scrapped the idea in the end. So, in Show Canon, the witch was never disproven. Same in the books as of when we last see Dany. As this video assumes primarily show canon, this variable should have been mentioned. Unless Dany would keep it a secret for as long as possible and simply act surprised if no children came from her marriage? But, until proven otherwise, Dany would go on believing she was barren, so the matter of marriage unions and succession would have to be considered in this belief in mind.
They could simply pull a reverse cersei and rhaenyra.
The Tyrells have a large fleet, courtesy of Olenna's Redwyne family. Oh and also, Alerie is from the MAIN Hightower line and that house alone have as many vassals as the great houses and can and will use their bank and maesters against anyone threatening the Tyrells.
We've addressed that in our pinned comment, Thom did put a note in the script but i forgot to add it 😂 In the Dany scenario, The Redwynes are likely rendered impotent as the hostages the Lannisters had in kings landing to stop them supporting the Tyrells likely become hostages to Stannis. Its not a sure thing that the Redwynes would help by a longshot. Thanks for watching! Liam
That was the most drastic "push comes to shove" I've ever experienced... Lord, I never even considered that as a thing until I saw it, and now.... I can't find a better use for it. Damn. Well done.
I think without the sixth book it's hard to do how Baelish might win...
And I think he might anyway
Imagine. 😂
Im hoping we at least get book 6 and just a podcast of what happens from GRRM at this rate - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips
I honestly believe we’ll get Winds…though even Bloodraven doesn’t know what will ever come of the seventh
I wanted so bad for House Tyrell to survive.
A side note: Tyrells actually have the biggest fleet in Westeros, the Redwine fleet. They managed to assemble about 1200 ships in Dance, if I remember the numbers correctly. Not all of those were warships, but cogs would be even better for transport of a land army. So they totally can try to bring Daeneris and her armies back as quickly, as they can. Even better, they probably can also try to hire sellsales and hold on to some of their fleet at and to stave off Stannis and Ironborn raids.
They did not have that kind of fleet during the Dance. That is the number of ships at their disposal at the beginning of the books,. More specifically 200 warships and 1,000 merchant vessels.
We've addressed this in our pinned comment. The Redwynes aren't a sure thing in the Dany scenario, by quite a wide margin. The Lannisters actually hold 2 of the Redwynes hostage at kings landing at the start of the war, which is why Paxter didn't declare for Renly or help the Tyrells until they'd allied with The Lannisters. If Stannis wins Blackwater, which he likely would without Tyrell interference, those hostages likely become his hostages. At best keeping Lord Paxter pinned down again, at worst turning that fleet on the Roses. I know Olena is a Redwyne herself, but I think lord Paxter would likely place more value on his sons than his aunt, especially when linage and continuation of the family line is quite important among nobles. Thanks for watching! Liam
@@George-Hawthornewell they did side with Aegon in but they didn't do much during the war cause they were fighting off the Grayjoys
The simpler option is to send negotiators to all sides with the same offers. The Tyrells will remain neutral, and sell grain to all sides, but they will only deliver it using Tyrell forces. They would profit from all sides, and learn the force strength and locations of each force. No side would attack them for fear of loosing their outsourced supply lines. When it is clear which sides have a path to victory with their help, the game changes. A new offer is then made. They secure a marriage that insures a future ruler is related to them by blood. They then deliver their last grain shipment to the other sides, but taint it so their forces are not fit for battle. They turn over all force strength and location info to their new ally. While those armies are still too ill to fight, the chosen ally captures their most dangerous foes with few casualties on either side. If they capture enough nobles they might win the war by having enough hostages to force those houses to vacate the field. The treachery would cause some ill will, but they need only remind them that it resulted in less bloodshed from all sides.
Loving how deep these alternate theories go
Great video as usual, in-depth and consistent with the characters behavior. You guys should do another with how the High Sparrow could’ve won! It will be difficult but very entertaining.
In all honesty, the Sparrows had almost won as well - they had their claws in Tommen, and had effectively neutered the Tyrells with Lorras' induction into the Faith and Margaery being accused of perjury. They just underestimated Cersei. She should have been kept imprisoned in the sept until her trial, made to go on a walk of atonement, and then either killed or made to join the faith. With KL and the throne under their rule, expanding the Faith Militant to other parts of Westeros should be a rather trivial task - appoint a sparrow to Oldtown, and from those 2 religious centres, gradually replace the old septons and radicalize the septas and meisters. The only sticking point I see here is the North. Cat was really the only northerner with any connection to the Faith, the rest of the north being staunch believers in the Old Gods. The Boltons probably aren't interested in submitting to radical southerners who call flaying people alive 'immoral'. With time and blood, the North would probably eventually break, but with Dany and the Walkers coming, its time the faith doesn't have. Dany would probably have to accept the faith - for now. She needs to consolidate her rule before trying to tackle the faith again. Depending on how nuts Dany is at this point, she may just Maegor it and burn them all, an obvious lose condition. However, if she is still sane, she could tactfully decide to tolerate them and potentially try and deradicalize the faith in future. The walkers are also an issue, and I honestly doubt the faith would believe it. If the faith forces Dany to stay at home "you can't believe this superstitious heretical nonsense, your grace", everyone loses and humanity is doomed to an eternal night.
Dany and the walkers require the faith to seriously change up their hyperagressive strategy in the beginning - since playing their hand too hard with either gets them burned, or zombified. Winning requires cautious play, which isn't consistent with how they're characterised. It requires retrospective knowledge to get the best outcome possible
I was convinced that The High Sparrow's plan was to get Cersei and Olenna out of the way, have Tommen have an "accident", eventually marry Margaery and become her consort, while puppeting her.
You should do a scenario where Littlefinger takes the throne. Im interested to see if its even possible
We've got it on the list! Thanks for watching! Liam
I mean, considering Robert took the throne by rebellion, the “rightful” King is anyone who can take a keep power 🤷🏽♀️
Am late i know, The only reason Robert was able to become king so easily is because his grandmother is a Targ, which does make him a kinslayer (technically)
@@erikakerblom2900 it does help strengthen his claim since he has Targaryen blood.
The baratheon line started from a bastard brother of aegon the conquer, so he is a branch family essentially.
Edit: spelling mistakes
"But with Margaery warming his bed, I'm sure he'll find a way to cope with his loss."
Oh, I'd say having Margaery warming one's bed could make ANY man "get over" just about ANYTHING!
😂 very true
I know i would
She's such an inspiration >.
Another amazing video!Thank you guys for doing what you do!
Thank you Mikey… 😬😂 - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips you’re welcome Thom 😂.In all seriousness though I hope both of you keep killing it!
Excellent! The video I’ve been waiting for!
I hope this helps in your quest for the throne Ser! 😂 -Thom
People always forget that the Riverlands allied themselves with the North and would have been part of their kingdom. Making their hypothetical independent kingdom huge in terms of land and rich in resources. The riverlands are a close contendant to the Reach in terms of fertility, its good land. Plus, if the Reach was parrt of that Kingdom, it would stretch from the wall to the Arbor all the way through Westeros, cutting off the crown from the Westerlands and its resources. It would be a pretty good play
15:55 did you guys kind of forgot about the Redwyne Fleet: One of the Three major fleets of Westeros and that Olenna was born a Redwyne?
Look... in this world... fleets are forgotten about a lot okay.... 😂 - Thom
They also kinda forgot the Hightowers. I don't think Lord Leyton would just let his grandkids just die without a fight
@@TheFandomeClips haha understandable! This video was still fantastic as always!
Now just imagining a Tyrell servant having charge in on Margaery every time Cersei's about to come by, hissing the warning, "Watch yourself, my lady! The B**** is back!"
instead of sitting back during the war of the 5 kings, they focused on capturing tywin and the mountain. (probably when rob was trying to draw him in) tyrells attack the lanistars and hand both over to the dornish, the bad blood would be forgiven. a bond between dorne, tyrells and starks backing danny with marriage to loras and margey to rob/willis sounds ideal in my mind.
sitting back is the best move you can do. why needlessly waste your troops? though i would have sat back entirely out of the war. The Dany thing I would still do, but with an untouched fresh army.
@@godemperorofmankind3.091
I get what you mean but I don't think it's a waste to use your soldiers in a couple battles or maybe even only a siege of harrenhal when it's strengthening your position. Like it's said in ASOIAF
"You do not need to win," Tyrion told him. "All you need to do is raise your banners, rally your supporters, and hold, until Daenerys arrives to join her strength to yours."
I think sitting back makes you less flexible, less appealing to Dany.
The Tyrells were a necessary component to Daenerys's arrival to Westeros. Were the Tyrells to remain in a strong position with Renly, Stannis or Tommen, Dany would never get to Westeros. The logic is in Daenerys's progress in Season 6. The 100,000 Dothraki were a massive gain, but introduced a new liability: no single fleet could bring Daenerys's forces to Westeros. She needed the ships she seized from the Slavers, *PLUS* the ships from Yara Greyjoy, Dorne and the Tyrells.
Were the Tyrells to remain in a position of influence with the Baratheons (or Tommen 'Lannister') Daenerys's arrival would be delayed long enough for the North to be brought to heel and the Ice Zombies to be dealt with. By that time, the Tyrells could depose Stannis (if they had marriage ties through Renly and Shireen) or Cersei (if they had marriage ties through Tommen). While they'd lack a competent commander to counter Daenerys's army, Daenerys would be facing a united Westeros that just survived the Long Night in her absence, leaving her to be seen as a foreign invader with a foreign army. She could easily seize King's Landing, but would face assassination threats at every turn.
Dany bringing Dothraki and Unsullied was itself a bit of an unnecessary blunder. It alienated many potential allies in Westeros. allies she needs.
Tbh I dont think Margaery would have to do much to get control the North is a Marg/Tommen scenario. Sansa was de-facto in charge up there as Lady of Winterfell, with the Vale armies more there for her than for Jon, and Sansa has a pre-existing, positive, relationship with Margaery. She trusted Margaery back in King's Landing and viewed her as a friend. In contrast, she immediately distrusted Daenerys.
Asked to choose between Margaery and Daenerys, Sansa probably pushes the North into league with Margaery. If Littlefinger still has any influence, he probably agrees with that anyway since he's worked with the Tyrells before. Better the devil you know than the one you don't... and the one taking advice from old-rival Varys.
The Tyrells would definitely ask Grandpa Hightower to something about the dragons and the Citadel have a tome hidden away just for such emergencies.
Stannis is in the North, Prince Aegon holds Storm's End, the Iron Men are wrecking havoc upon the Reach.
@GeneralGrievousCIS That trust is likely weakened by olenna framing her.
We demand "How Littlefinger could have Won The Game Of Thrones"
Don't think with the wrong head.
A very interesting theory about how House Tyrell could have won the Game of Thrones.
They more:less already won(by their own criteria), until Cersei effec it up with the High Sparrow. Olenna should have had Cersei killed!
When you said “push comes to shove” while Jaime pushes Bran 😂
Mace the Ace not acknowledged? Just as planned!
Quite literally if you are talking the books, where it seems the Tyrells act like Mace is an oaf to make people underestimate him
Easy mistake to make, but stannis would already have had warning of the northern threats, even with a 1000 men under his command he marched north to protect the realms of man from the wildlings, imagine if he had the might of the 7 kingdoms behind him!
Margaery: Either f*ck me or bend the knee to Stannis-
Renly: Quick! Where’s Stannis?!
Nice vid guys. Can't wait for the extended Lannister video or maybe the how littlefinger could have won vid?
7:21 "when push comes to shove"
Thas was pretty dark lol
When you said "Show-only offer of becoming Stannis heir, until a son is born to him",
I had to look, and the offer was also made in the book.
15:55 Wdym? Tyrells have the biggest fleet in Westeros
Erh… Liam? This one’s for you. 😂 - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips maybe not the biggest, but I'd bet on Redwyne every time vs Ironborn.
Renly and Robb, pulling the biggest d-ck moves in Westeros since Daemon The First BlackFyre.
why?
Starks and tyrell is literally the most perfect match...
Starks terms: Side with us, and overthrow the lannisters. As soon as we are done, we go back to north. You take the Iron throne for yourselves, (who the fuck is powerfull enough to even try anything funny against the tyrells at the end lf it all, lannisters gone and stannis army lost at the battle of blackwaters) afterwards you guys leave us alone, and agree to officiate the north as independant.
Tyrells wouldn't get the iron throne through and marriage. They would literally get the iron throne to themself.
The Tyrells were trying to remove Cersei from King's Landing back to Casterly Rock. Albeit by manipulating Tommen. They already assassinated Joffrey, if Cersei died then it would look suspicious on the Tyrell's end. But yeah, they underestimated how far Cersei was willing to go to secure power. Then again, so did the Reynes and Tarbecks underestimate how far Tywin was willing to go to secure power.
It depends on when cersei dies and how.
Step 1 margery encourages joffery into becomeing in another mad king by encouraging his sadism,
Step 2 the tyrels lead another rebellion under the gyze of saving margery
Step 3 kill joffery and kill cercei
Step 4 use margery’s popularity to get her a claim to the throne and for good measure marry her to stanis or someone like that
Step 5 profit
One point, if Tommen bends the knee, they should make him being named the Lord of Storms End and the storm lands part of the deal, I mean, it makes sense, he would technically be considered the heir (assuming his bastard status is kept hush hush) and that way the political marriage with Margaery still has value. I don't know if Dany would go for it but if she would that would be swell.
Very neat idea Seras! Tommen is quite soft, I can't see him worrying Dany of he was offered that. Not sure Margery would be happy about it though, but then again at that point in the game, without dragons she'll have to take what she can get 😂
15:58 What do you mean they have no big fleet?! One of their vassals, the Redwynes (as in the family of Olenna Redwyne), literally have the biggest fleet in all of Westeros.
In the books the twin heirs of house redwyn are held hostage in the Red Keep. The Redwyns were in a deadlock. Wich was only resolved after house Tyrell and Lannister allied with each other.
Afterwards it gets complicated but boils down to Cercei fucks things up.
@@3esin Yeah, I forgot about that part. My bad.
[Rant] The one problem i have with the major castles of Westeros is that all of them are portrayed as these unassailable beasts. Seriously, 6/8of the main houses have seats that are renowned for being a difficult seige to the point where Kings Landing and the Red Keep look like its a pathetic keep. Realistically High Garden and Winterfell would have no real defence from natural formations beyond good sightlines.
Winterfell would only be notably resistent to a seige because of big food stores and the geothermal springs under neath, meaning the defence comes from the cold more than anything else (and would make for both a lot more menace in the house words and a far more interesting climac in choosing to stay at winterfel to fight the Night King when the main advantages dont mean much).
High Garden is just a rich boy hold, and whilst they sorta have a Theodosian Walls thing going on, they lack all the reasons why those walls made Constantinople so hard to seige. "Oh theres maze between two walls", well if its a hedge maze the seiging army would just carve through it with torch, pitch and axe, and if its solid theyd build an ager and just go over. Given the Reach has the largest army, its main strength should be that its the biggest castle after Harrenhall and has the men to man it, meaning its not the castle so much as the man power.
Seriously though, besides Pyke and Sunspear, all the major seats are these impregnable goliaths that just takes away from how impregnable thr Erie is. Riverun, High Garden, Winterfell, and Casterly Rock should not be given the reverencr for defence that they have, and more just a highlighted gimmick. "Beseiging winterfell? Do it in summer or youre screwed!", "High Garden? As long as there banners arent raised your good!", "River Run? Get some sheild men on boats and hit the dock." "Casterly Rock? Best get them all out cos those tunnels run deep."
I get the Erie being defencable, its all the Vale has to ascribe its success (Seriously, cavalry in a very rocky mountainous are?) And i have a soft spot for storms end because the tapered walls shown in those lore videos the cast did looked great and the whole founding myth is that the gods couldnt tear it down, plus hqving a defended port , stormy weather, and limited areas to beseige from is a good choice. The rest need to lose the rep.
TL;DR - Storms End and the Erie should be the only seats with particularly renowned defences as having so many takes away from its meaning and really makes the Capital look kinda crap.
The wild card in this scenario is the North-returning Sansa and providing justice for Ned would probably be enough to acquiesce in the Baratheon Bros pact. But when Dany shows up and the Tyrells swap sides? Westeros suffers through the worst internal conflict since the Dance; Highgarden, Dorne, and whoever controls the Westerlands (presumably a lesser Lannister like Lancel or Devan are appointed after Tywin’s line is liquidated; unfortunately I can’t see Kevan surviving such a purge) with Dany, while the North, the Riverlands, and of course the Stormlands remain loyal to the Crowned Stag.
And then the Walkers show up. Gg, Tyrells. You won, but at what cost?
Howdy as always Warlord! Thats the thing, Sansa is a bit of a valuable game piece. I think Rob and Cat would definitely be open tot rejoining the fold upon her return. I'm not sure how the other Northern lords like the Greatjon would feel about giving up their new found independence though! Thanks for tuning in as usual my friend! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsRobb probably will kill a couple of his major lords like Karstark and internal infighting begins plus his whole marrying a foreigner instead who he was promised too shows a lack of keeping his word
I have to agree with your analysis of the tyrells not having a strong fleet, if I remember correctly it's tyrells have the redwyne fleet which is the third largest in westeros
It would be simple with Tyrell’s. Loras betrothed to Stannis’ daughter and then marry Rob and Margery would unit the South and North if the Lannisters are dead. If Sansa is saved in the siege of Kings Landing, Stannis can use her to get Rob to bend the knee since Joffrey will be dead and meet them half way and grant them more autonomy like Dorne. As well all of the Lannister army should be banished to the wall. This way you win over the Night’s Watch and the North as a whole.
Don't the Tyrells have the Redwyne fleet to help Danny cross?
We've addressed this in our pinned comment Pro. Thom did put a note on the script file but I forgot to insert it into the actual text like a dumbass. Basically the Redwynes aren't a sure thing, by a longshot. The Lannisters hold 2 of the Redwynes hostage at kings landing which pins Lord Paxter in place and prevents him aiding the Tyrells in their support of Renly. If Stannis wins blackwater like he likely would in the Dany scenario those hostages have a high chance of becoming his, which at best keeps the Redwynes pinned, at worst turns the Redwyne fleet against The Roses. Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips Thanks for the added information, really appreciate it :)
5:48 I’m not sure the Shireen/Loras arrangement would go through? Selyse is a Florent, a disgruntled vassal house to the Tyrells. They have beef with them because, before Aegon’s Conquest, house Tyrell was a hereditary steward to the Gardner kings of the Reach, with whom they occasionally intermarried. House Florent claims the title of Wardens of the South through stronger blood ties to the former kings; instead, Aegon gave it to the Tyrells because a Tyrell surrendered the Reach to him instead of joining the Gardner family BBQ at the Fields of Fire, in which House Florent was likely involved on the losing side. Basically, they was robbed. I wouldn’t be surprised if they only joined Stannis because he promised them that position once he sat on the Iron Throne, so such an arrangement would make them go apeshit.
Love it.
Been waiting for it 😊
Though i admit I do like book tyrells 😊
Have you done a renly one?
Or dorne?
Or how about how Dany could've won at various points if tywin was Alive and the cannon if he was dead? 😊
Thanks Alan! We've done Renly along with Stannis but we've not tackled Dany or Dorne yet. Though they are on the list! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@shifterverse
I'm silly. I forgot about renly 😂
Thx though. The other Two should be interesting shouldn't they?
Especially the dillema if tywin was or not to Face Dany plus dornes desire for revenge 😊
@@alanmike6883 absolutely Dany is a tough one, she's basically got the "I Win" card when it comes to conquest, its trying to arrange her moves so she doesn't go mad and learns some humility in her journey 😂
@@shifterverse
True but as we learnt the dragon's weren't completely invulnerable.
Plus there's Still debate whether Weir wood tree arrows could be used.
If tywin was alive he'd probably come up with a strategy of sacrifice major settlements to take out the dragons 😁
They were soooo close, especially after Joffrey’s death.
At some point Rob would have come to the realization that for the north to remain free he needs to take the Iron throne. He's mother would also have helped him come to that conclusion.
The Tyrells DO have a big fleet; their bannerman Lord Redwynes fleet is the largest in the Seven Kingdoms after the decimation on the Blackwater. He didnt take part since his sons were Cersie's hostages, but assuming they survived the storming of the Red Keep, Stannis would demand their father's fealty as well.
The stags and roses dealing with Robb I feel largely depends on who survives taking the capital as getting sansa and to be the one who swings the sword on the remaining lannister's could get them to bend the knee since their goals are mostly complete with an exception of being independent.
"Let others wage war, you happy Tyrell, marry" 😅😅😅
If they had all their family members from the books. 2 extra brothers that were pretty strong. One is crippled but powerful politically. He was friends with Oberyn. Then there’s the other one i don’t know much about. Garlan and Willas iirc…
15:59 excuse me what? I know in the show their naval might is never shown but in the books which you've quoted a lot, the tyrells vassals, namely the hightowers and redwynes have a huge fleet that competes with the ironborn.
Thom did make a note of this on the script but i forgot to insert it 😂 The Redwyne fleet is impotent and unable to do jack because the Lannisters hold Paxters sons at the red keep. Stannis wins Blackwater those hostages likely become his and thus best case the fleet stays impotent, worst case Stannis forces Paxter to use it against the Tyrells.
This was very interesting. Now, I’ll have to disagree with the options chosen though. Remember that wars are won in multiple ways, or a combination: army strength (numbers), rations, cunning, gold, and love OR fear of the people. The Tyrell’s all of these. Because of how they are described in the books, it is HEAVILY implied that the Bravoosi are very against another Valyrian empire. The House of Black and White sent assassins to kill the masters and if we deduce hints it was they who murdered the Valyrian magicians who held the fires back, causing the Doom of Valyria. Why do I say this? They would assassinate her. Daenerys is not actually a very cunning person, she just relies on military and her dragons. A person wearing the face of a trusted friend would kill her likely even before she arrives in Westeros given how much Renly agreed with this plan.
So Daenerys would not be a factor in their endgame. King’s Landing would still be standing.
15:56 lol isnt the redwyne fleet the biggest or second only to the ironborn in all of westeros
15:55 did you just forget about the Redwyne fleet?
lol 20:10, the "THIS BITCH" felt like it had maybe 10 years of trauma behind it
Aha for Liam! I was all for Cersei in those final seasons! Didn't get distracted and played the game to the fullest :p
Bless you Queen Margaery ❤️
Love the Tyrells definitely my favourite house
I actually never got why the Tyrells were so...ambitious - (in the show at least, I'm not so sure about the books) Olenna directly blames Mace "wanting his daughter to be Queen", but then everything we see after that statement heavily suggests that if Olenna didn't approve of the idea it wouldn't have actually happened.
But consider their position of "Doing nothing" - they are the Lords Paramount of the Kingdom in Westeros which produces the vast majority of the continents food, the most valuable resource in existence for a society. And unlike the Lannisters gold mines, their fields aren't running out of food any time soon and (barring unsustainable farming, which we can assume isn't employed given how long that region has already been farmed, or a random climate disaster) so their source of wealth is entirely secure. They are rich, respected and can essentially live entirely carefree in the middle of a land of plenty, not to mention already have the military and naval strength that nobody wants to make an enemy of them for the sake of it.
They might not be on the throne, but they're actually better off where they are - The Reach doesn't need Crown support in any way, shape or form and they can quite securely trust that as long as they're not making waves no Monarch wants to risk the supply wagons stopping. They have very little to gain by joining the Royal Family, and are instead removing themselves from a safe seat in paradise in order to constantly scrabble to maintain control of a den of vipers.
Beyond "Status" they really seem to have nothing to gain, and everything to lose, and I never understood why Olenna thought it was a good idea unless Mace actually DID go "But my little Princess deserves to be a Queen!", ignored his mother and waded into the war against her wishes.
The other six kingdoms could be burning around them in the most devastating war of conquest the world has ever seen, and as long as the Tyrells stayed out of it they'd pretty much ALWAYS be able to just pledge their crops to whoever won and be fine, so long as that person didn't personally hate them and wasn't flat out insane and liable to kill everyone on a whim. Not to mention, even if the other six Kingdoms were at War, if the Tyrells stay out of it then nobody's going to want to poke the sleeping dragon and risk their armies siding against them, and you can't even ravage their lands because if you do you're just guaranteeing there's no food for anyone when you win - burning the Riverlands caused a famine in the Riverlands. Burning the Reach would cause a famine EVERYWHERE, so NOBODY will want to do it.
They've basically already got the best and most secure position of anyone in Westeros, and all they have to do is not give anyone a reason to take it from them and it's pretty much "Happily ever after" from there.
I suppose the issue I have with the Tyrell-Lannister alliance plan, is when to get rid of Cersei and how? If we are poisoning her after Joffery's death then people will likely get suspicious and the Tyrells risk getting caught. I suppose you could hire a faceless man to do it but two royal asassinations would still tip people off risks some of the same things. The safest bet I could see is if the Tyrells remove Cersei with Joffery where the crown likely just pins the deaths on Tyrion. But that also requires the Tyrells to properly estimate her alongside Joffery which I doubt they'd do. Afterall, if they could assess her threat level accurately like they did the boy king in the show, why didn't they in the OG story?
Well would it be soo weird if the queen mother, a known alcoholic, died of overdose after the death of her precious boy? Wink wink, and I would add more people don’t like Cersei than they do so I would question how much they would put in the effort to investigate further, I’m not sure even if Tywin would do it
However, I think I found a solution; Marry Cersei to Loras before the purple wedding. Doing this would allow them to take Cersei away to high garden after the trial and where’d they have more exclusivity to Tommen and no Cersei in KL. And even if she causes trouble at high garden, then she can simply befall an accident with an investigation at the control of house Tyrell.
You can't starve out winterfell, they have greenhouses and it sits on a hot spring. The southerners would freeze waiting for them to surrender
All I know is that if Tywin had just put Cersei in her place and capitalized fully on the prodigious political and strategic skills Tyrion brought to the table the Lannisters would have won.
The Tyrells have massive fleet actually. The Redwynes are their vassals, Olenna's birth family, and massive at sea.
That's pretty much the only way outside of dragons to beat the Starks is to give them a reason to drive south of Moat Cailin (Which drove back every southern army in history).
Robb would've been able to kick his feet up and relax if his mother wasn't a Tully, and they didn't have to save any family members.
Tyrells do have a large fleet by vassals
Question from someone who has a beginner level knowledge of the ASOIAF and the GOT/HOTD series.
Are the Hightowers still relevant by the time we reach the GOT era (Robert’s Reign)? Would they be comfortable with the Tyrells (a lesser house in the Reach that was elevated by Aegon) to possess such power that they once possessed?
Yes and yes , Mace 's wife ( in the books) is a Hightower , if you want to know more check the channel Fantasy Heaven Asoiaf , they have a short and very well written episode about house Hightower history(one about the valeryon too)
I want to hear a video about all the ways the White Walkers could have gotten through the wall. Make it happen!
The Tyrells, are quite interesting since they have lot's and lot's of vassals and depending on how loyal those vassals are going to be in a different timeline, that probably could decide what the Tyrells would do.... or they could just use the Vale strat of just chilling in peace
*lots and lots* No apostrophe needed
Indeed. The two largest vassals that are directly married to the family - the Hightowers and the Redwynes - are enough to help win a war imho.
Margaery is so damn pretty.
Now fwd this to Martin pls so the printing press can start warming up
Easier option. Robb marries Margery and then gives the Tyrells the Iron Throne when they kill the Lannisters, while Robb rules the North and maybe Riverlands. Alternatively he could take the throne himself if need be.
That wouldn't work given robbs Motivation , the geographical locations of the characters during the war, and the issue of daenareys and the walkers.
In a way, the Tyrells were on top for a time. When Marjory had her claws in Joffrey and also Tommen, who ruled , they had more control over the kingdom than Tywin did. And they were richer. Then the fanatics came.
This maybe a longshot, but couldn’t they side with the north and agree with Robb to give him his independence while they get the iron throne?
maybe even with the long term plan to get them back (in like a generation or so)
Unlikely given they want to marry into the thrown rather than directly sitting on it.
If Tywin didn't die, Cersei would never have been allowed to let the Faith Militant to arm. He would have stopped her from doing so.
Tywin was very likely dead regardless of Tyrions actions. The theroy that Oberyn had poisoned him during his visit is only really called a theroy because it hasn't been outright confirmed yet 😂 but I agree Tywin was the lynch pin of the lions, he was the only one with the mindset to keep the Lannisters on top!
I loved what Cersi did. Desperate times call for desperate measures
😂 I would agree, if not for the fact those desperate times were caused by her own stupidity. Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips probably. But I really disliked Marjorie after the way she treated Tommen! He was such a cinnamon roll ❤️
@@Random_Wierdo.margaery treated tommen better than his own mother…
@@giorgiamoretti6642 no. Cersei never treated Tommen or his sister badly. The only people she loved were her children.
@@Random_Wierdo. the only person she loved is herself. She neglected tommen and myrcella, to the point that as soon as anyone shows them any forme of care and attention they fall for them. Biggest example being tommen himself that fell in love with margaery just because she gifted him a cat ,was nice to him and nothing more. The show tried to give Cersei a bit of redemption by making her a ‘loving’ mother and margaery a seductress but the point still stands lol she ‘loved’ him so much she lead him to suicide
The white walkers could have used giants to break the gates of the wall just like mance almost did and with bran being south of the wall, the walls magic is basically useless.
I think the wall has some kind of seal on it that prevents white walkers crossing the threshold. But 100% they had a plan to get through that didn't involve dragons.
Some fans would've liked to c Margery meet Daenerys. I would think she would have Marg as the very 1st woman hand in all of history. And Tyrion can b the master of law.
A live giant tore open the iron bars on Castle Black's tunnel. Count the zombie giants do the same?
Question: if the Tyrells sit out book 2, do you think Renly still crowns himself king? I don't see the motivation being as strong with like half the stormlords.
And I know you were focused on show canon but Wyllas in the books is friends with Ob
IMO Renly only crowns himself due to the backing of the Tyrells. I’m sure he shows Ned a painting of Margery as a potential scheme to replace Cersei as Roberts wife.
Wyllas actually doesn’t have a grudge against Oberyn which is a great point and possible Alliance deal with Dorne between him and Duran doesn’t seem a Stretch - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips in further of that, I believe Arianna (misspell) even tried to seduce Wyllas at some point hoping to make him her husband. Wyllas seemed uninterested, either implying him and Oberdyn are closer than we think ;) or he i aware of some of the Martell machinations. I think the former is more likely.
Margaery is still my favorite Game of Thrones character
The weakness of the reach is its strength. Rich in and and people, there are many great house as great if not greater than the Tyrells. If not united behind a strong warden, they have much to lose to their powerful vassals that eye their power eagerly. In contrast to the lannisters and sharks, they have far less influence over their vassal houses. That’s why the reach rarely intervenes fully into conflicts, in fear of great losses.
If Stannis doesn't have Sansa, any chance of defeating Robb long-term is gone. He's way too good at fighting, and in the worst-case scenario, he lets the Riverlands go, pulls back north, and tells Stannis to have fun with Moat Cailin and the crannogmen. Getting through the swamps is basically impossible (southron armies have been trying and failing for millennia), which leaves the possibility of a naval invasion. Despite Theon's "success," this also isn't a great option, since the North is so damn MASSIVE that it's hard to even march an army through, let alone occupy, and every village and keep is going to be resisting. Even if Stannis manages to get his giant, unwieldy army to Winterfell, he's going to find out the very hard way why it's called that, because winter is going to hit soon, and there is no better fortress to be in when that happens. There's no natural cover to take shelter in around the walls, the castle has natural heating and enough grain supplies to last years, and winter in the North is a frozen hell. Oh, and there's a few hundred thousand northerners who REALLY want you gone. Stannis is going to have to content himself with retaking the Riverlands, quashing the Ironborn, and then preparing for Dany. Meanwhile, Robb is gonna have his work cut out fighting wights and Others, but on the plus side he's doing it side-by-side with his bro Jon, so there's that.
The Starks would have been an option. Why? Robb wants Joffrey's head, his sisters and to go home. If he had a powerful ally help him achieve that, he'd probably not mind said ally sitting the southern throne after they are done. Olenna would be smart enough to let the North stay independent, but remind Robb that he needs trade and with a Tyrell on the Iron Throne, and allied with Robb, Robb gets the trade, the Tyrells the throne, and everyone else loses.
Mace for the win
Mace Windu is pretty legit. ;) - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips lol Tyrell >>> Windumb
I would love to see how House Aryn/balish would win the game of thrones
Littlefinger is on the list!
He is? 👀 - Thom
I wouldn’t..
Hear me out, i think dany couldve landed with the unsullied as youve forgot to mention the rewyne fleet which is a large and formidable fleet. And given a little research on late middle ages ship transports i'd say about 200 ships could carry the unsullied. Tge redwyne fleet likely has that as its said to be the 3rd best fleet behind the royal fleet and the iron fleet.
Actually the redwyne fleet is not the only one în Reach , the houses of Hightower and Costayne also have fleets , so in the end the Reach has the biggest fleet in Westeros (maybe the world) , wich is logic because they have so much coastline and islands
After reading Fire and Blood the dragons are no longer much of a treath