balon is a so not intellingent and he doesn't deserve to share a name close to baelor brake-spear or baelon the brav. there are many noble men with the name that starts with "balo" and the iurn islands give us the worst one of all. i mean he isen't even brav, all he does is sit on his see stone chair and insult people all day. i hav a question. if the iern island is all about earning ur right to lead and taking what u want, how did not intellingent balon become king?? or is the iern islands like the rest of westernos where the oldest son become the lord or the king? or isen't it?? i'll ad mit i'm a bit confused, because why does balon get to just become leader of iern islands because he is oldest, but eronn and asha and theon and victaron had to do a king moot?? should not theon become king becaus he is the oldest son o balon, much like how balon became in charg himself? or no? and why not? and why eronn was aloud in charge then? and if it was so simple, why eronn did not become in charge back when their father die instead of balon?
@@pIayingwithmahwiiMix of that and the king's moot. Where all the Lord's of the iron islands, influencial officers and whatnot gather to choose a new king. Though I don't remember if that's only when the succession is unclear or when there is a clear heir.
@@philippeblais8594 so basically they did it because they didnt like theon cuz he foster at winter fell, and cause has no balls which means he wont make a good king cuz he cant hav kid? does that sum it up is that why they did the Moot when it should hav gone to Theon but not when it went to Balon?
They call a Kings Moot because Theon isn't there to claim the throne and some of them don't want a woman leading them so it puts Asha/Yaras claim in peril. Damphir wanted Victarion to go for the crown but Euron showed up to offer more. If our version we solve the sexism issue with Theon being present and by helping taking the westerlands they've expanded the empire and shown they've got ambition or did something of worth. -Thom
@@TheFandomeClips anything as long as Eronn doesn’t take the throne. Euron seem like a nice enough guy right now but I worry the power will go to his head and he will end up like Fake Aegon with a anger issues and he may start doing bad thing if he get any more power. There something about that euron guy i don’t trust, I worry he could rlly do some bad thing if he get to powerful but maybe I’m not being fair to Euron who knows maybe he will turn out a good ruler. He seem kinda nice to his people the iorn islanders I guess a good ruler should care for they people right
Balon: Fuck the Starks. WE DO NOT SOW! We'll raid the North! Theon: To get what? Pebbles and ice? Are we opening a bar? If we join the Starks our main job will be to get a literal mountain of gold! Balon:....Ah shit, the lad is right. THE KING IN THE NORTH!
Here’s what Balon actually tells Theon in A Clash of Kings. "Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. Aye, we might take Lannisport, but we should never keep it. No. I hunger for a different plum . . . not so juicy sweet, to be sure, yet it hangs there ripe and undefended." Robb’s army was in the south, and as Asha says in ADWD, the Ironborn would still be holding Moat Cailin if Balon hadn’t died and Euron hadn’t abandoned it. As it is, the fifty or so Ironborn left held off a large force of Ryswells and Dustins attacking from the north. Also, the North had never (at least since Brandon the Shipwright) had a fleet in the west, so even if the invasion failed, there would be no chance of retaliation. Balon may not have been the best strategist in Westeros, but he wasn’t the worst.
@@barbiquearea He should have still tried to get any reassurances from the Iron Throne, because since he didn't, he didn't get any allies, even though they would have welcomed him with open arms. But with Robb dying it freed the New warden up to march on Moat Cailin in force + with support of the Freys and if the war would have calmed down completely with support of the Iron Throne. This Lennister fleet he was afraid of would have blocked the access to the castle and made the Ironborns get heroically starved to death
@@barbiquearea n teriam n, com a tropa do Ramsay vinda pelo norte fosso cailin teria caído. Asha fala que o norte é muito grande para manter, n tinha como sair vitorioso. Outra, balon queria independência, mas focou no inimigo do seu inimigo. Não faz nenhum sentido o cara querer independência do trono de ferro, e não atacar o maior apoiador do trono.
That would be smart given if rob screws over the freys. If the Greyjoys take or just sack Castely Rock would deal such a blow that the Freys would be more hesitant to betray rob as the Lansters are weak and the grey joys never burn down wintefell.
@@OurHiltsHurt really dude? I agree Ballon stink as king, but im getting tired of everyone judging Euron pre judging him before they realy get to know him. we don’t kno for a fact if Euron did all the stuff ppl say’s he did. As of right now they are just accusations, notheng more. I mean do we rlly wanna repeat of what happen in season 1?? U know to whom I am refer to right? I mean I feel like I’m getting flash back to another Honorable high lord being accuse, just like everyone does to Euron right now. Who else remember Lord Stark, being wrongly accused of treason witch he didn’t commit but was punished for it anyway. Western is already a realy not fair country to live, so we can’t simply Ignore “do process” that say that all High Lords have that same access to a rightful trial made up of their pears or a trial of combat if they dasire. Just because Euron is a little rough around the edges and a little awkward (just like Ned cough couch) doesn’t mean he don’t should not still have rights. Anyone of the great Lords deserves it. About him. Tbh it seems like most of the accusation are from Euron brother’s, and his brother’s are just jelous that he got to become king and they hav to be stuck as a mear warrior and a mear priest XD which are lame imo. while euron get to be a king plus he is rich since he is a pirate. They are jelous for sure. Maybe if euron brother’s didn’t blame euron for everything bad that happen to them then they might have had the Grit and Determination to become king instead of euron himself, u. Never know. But instead they chose to be in their pity party and to insult euron and make accusation’s. U can’t win a campaign on nothing but attack ads. That is something I learned from the campaign trail. I will grant u this. I will grant that I am sure that it’s possible, that Euron has possibly done some bad things, but everyone has in this story it’s the Game of Thrones, u win or u get deleted right? This is one of the worst, they bring up some crime that everyone else in the story would commit about Euron, whom has done nothing that Jon Snow or Denarius herself wouldn’t do if put in his shoes. He is the one out there making the hard choices for all 3 of them. While they just coast along on all the love. Euron is the third head of the Dragon that Danny’s brother Ray talk’ed about for the Proffisee. The Whereas Jon is the Prince whom was Promised, Euron is the Third head of the dragon, aka the King whom was promised. Jon will take euron place perhaps we don’t know. It possible Euron must take the iron thrown in order to save Westeros, we really don’t know for sure since Euron is such a mysteryou’s figure. I believe he is much like akin to Cerberus Snape from Harry Podder. By that I mean he can seem dark and edgy and rough a round the edge’s, but I have a feeling we will find out he is a bit misunderstood and at the end of the day he only wants wat’s best for the realm, just like a lot of fan favorite’s. Maybe Euron will teach Danny that she can’t help the people and save the world by being all friendly with kindness and smiles. In order to help people at the end of the day u have to be willing to sacrifice them and get rid of anyone who standing in ur way to ur rise. People can’t be helped without this. Euron could teach Danny and Young Jon this lesson’s before he make a heroic sacrifice to save them. That is my theoretical on Euron Grey joy finally fate but we shall see I guess right? We shall see indeed
I tried this in a game of CK2 once. Did some raiding around the coasts, took Fair Isle, then ended up in one-on-one with Gregor Clegane, which given I was playing as Balon, went as well as you’d expect. Then Victarion took over, was a bit more successful, took Castamerr and fought off counter invasions, then a rematch to avenge my brother, and well I lasted longer this time.
he doesnt even have to be smart - he just has to be consistent with how his culture and his personality is written. Hes supposed to be a pirate and he lets the two richest kingdoms - stripped of their leaders and soldiers - just hangout while raiding the only place in the 7 Kingdoms that has nothing you can actually physically carry off to the Iron Islands.
this just shows lannisters thicc plot-armor. they would have lost in every scenario except the one in the books. whether the greyjoys side with robb or renly kneel to stannis or dorne wanting revenge or even vale joining the war. they must shit gold cause they are lucky as shit
It's not plot armour, it's George deciding to tell an interesting story, George wrote it so that balon was stupid because if he wasn't and renly kneeled and dorne entered the war then we wouldn't have got the story we got and could still get more of. The world George created was engineered for the lannisters to win because its a more interesting story, not because they have plot armour
@@Tvhurdghit4fhi6rr lol that literally wat plot armor is bro. U just define wat plot armor is like a diction arry. U can argue if it a good thing that they Lannister’s team have it, or if it was done good (I would say Yeas to both these questionnaires) but they DO have plot armor :) so yea
Yeas I agree with my own previous comment above. Plot armor is when something unrealistic happen (or a Serie’s of unrealistic avents unfoldeds) for the Sayk of telling a more interesting story. But plot armor is an tool a righter can use, and like any toole it neither gud or bad. It depend on how the Arthur write that plot and how he use the plot armor toole. Just like a blade is neither good nor bad in and off itself, it depend how the man who wield the blades. Gregor cle gane wield the blade for evil, whereas lord Esdras Stark wield his blade for the purpose of good and honour. So yea the Lan Nister family has plot armor as we all agree here that if anything else happen the Lan Nister would’ve be crushed, and their false born” king” Jeffrey “Baratheon!” (Cough cough) but like u I agree that the event that train spire in the books the way they did was the most interesting story so it was a good use of plot armor to armor the Lannister tribe with a modicum plot armor
@@Tvhurdghit4fhi6rr most people nowaday have been seeing to many BAD plot armors. It’s like if u only ever seeing too many Gregor cle ganes out in the wild and u never see a honorable knight like Duncan the Tall, u will start to think all knight and all swords are evil if u only see a bunch of gRegor cle games. Many Arthur’s are bad at righting plot armour in a affective manner. They do it as though a amachure. Now allow me to demon straight this form of amachore righting with a example, or a demonstraitshun, if u will. A example of a bad plot’s armour would be if Danny Danaerys is coming to kill the Lannis family with her dragon call Drogon, but then there’s a random storm ⛈ and before she can finally attack, before she can to make to her dragon to attack to the Lannister’s, a random bolt of lightning ⚡️ thunder tcome out of the sky and kill her Beloved Drogon. That Thunder. We can all agree wood be a example of an bad plot example of plot armor, because Not Only it is a rlly unrealistic way to protect the Lannistars, from Danny, More Importantly it is a rlly Boaring story. Way more boring than if something mor kool and intaresting and in tree ging or creyaytiv happened (I think I spelled creyaytiv right thts a tough one to spell haha. There a red line underneath it but I think auto spell check or watever could be glitching agen.).
Casterly Rock is one of the greatest castles built inside of a mountain and has never fallen. the Lannisters have been fighting the Iron Islands for thousands of years. The Westlands are used to fighting the Iron Islanders. Their castles were built to fight those raiders from the sea.
yeah cuz the iurn island ppl are so dumb that they r rlly dumb. if u put me in chage of the iurn fleat i garantea u the castly rock would fall in a week or more. maybe even a month. all i would need to hav is eurin gray joy as my second in command general
or maybe i wood do wat trywin lanister did, accept to his own castly rock. think about it, as u say it's on a ocean. all i would hav 2 do is let the ocean into the castel, and it would floud. that's why every good king knows u never should build ur castels on a ocean, because it can easely be floudded. by the ocean water i mean, in case that wasent clere
@@pIayingwithmahwii While I agree, Casterly Rock does have its own Coastal dock. It's also taller than the Wall in the North. It'll be very hard to flood. George RR Martin says that it's the strongest Castle in Westeros.
@@DarkKing009 yes but the ocean is very large. the ocean has even more water then a lake by a long shot. i would say maybe a lake couldn't floud it the castly rock, but a ocean? how can it not be floudded by the ocean? i heard there is even more water than land on earth so i feel like it could flud anything since there is more water then land right? even if it is on a tall, i think the ocean is pretty deep which means it can sink into tjhe ocean no? and then get floudded
Our belief was Lannisport which is right next to Casterly Rock would be the weakness they can focus on which may in turn give them Casterly Rock. Even if the Rock holds out, they don't have to actively assault it, but they can take advantage of the lesser protected port which would most likely be an important asset. Tywin has most of the army with him and Robb just annihilated whatever was left that they tried to raise at Oxcross. IIRC Robb needed Balons help if he was going to take Lannisport, which might be well protected against the land, but not as protected against the sea. Would have loved to see this in action though. - Thom
the step 2 is the magic irun island secret ingredient. it's the secret engredient where they somehow screw it up, and replace step 3 with "loose another war" xD, and get robb killed even befoar ) the red wedding LOLL
BRO WAT THA Heck! U literally have the name "LordBloodraven" like the official youtube account with that name. sicne u joined u-toube in 2007! that's crazy! u have been a fan of the books longar than many new fans have even been alive LOL! also btw can i plz get ur account? i would love to have that u-tube account! u can say no but it can't hurt to ask, right? lol
The lannisters no longer had a fleet, nor the ability to defend effectively defend from the sea. The lannister army was deployed in the riverlands leaving old men and green kids to garrison the castles. Meaning they would have no chance against hardened ironborn warriors. The difference between this and their campaign in the north would be that a.) they would have allies supporting them, b.) they would be fighting in a warmer friendlier climate that it would be easier to forage from, c.) the plunder actually would profit the iron islands.
@@CatotheE how? He offered to accept Balon as King if he'd do the same for him and fight alongside him. No one else would offer that. Balon's issue wasn't the offer, it was how it was worded ''He'll give me a Crown, GIVE ME a crown!'' That and he wanted revenge more than he wanted to strengthen his people.
Another nice bonus of this scenario is Theon would never be tortured by Ramsey and become Reek. He would hopefully find a way to stop being a little shit some other way but would probably learn something through fighting in the war as a Stark and Greyjoy and obtaining a position of power at the wars end.
Great video Fandome. However I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we have waited long enough. It's time to finished what you started and do the extended how the lannister's could have won video.
Two flaws though the overall move of accepting the offer is a good one 1. They still need the Freys to get to Riverrun. There is no water route to the east to relieve Riverrun without going around the entire continent (at least that I’m aware of). Without breaking the siege, they wouldn’t capture Jaime. Maybe the pressure on the Westerlands would cause them to need to withdraw but you still don’t capture Jaime that way. 2. Lysa controlled the Vale and wouldn’t let them join the war even when it seemed like the Lannisters were on their heels and the capital was going to fall to Stannis. It seems unlikely they would join the war until the war was virtually over if Lysa maintained control of the Vale
Aha just to fill in some gaps ! 1.So Robb doesn't send the offer to Balon until he's declared king in the north, by that point Riverrun has already been relieved and Jaime captured. They've already got what they needed at that point from Walder Frey. Although Frey contributes 4000 men to the cause and is an important ally, Robb only needed his aid again when he needed to go back North to retake it from the Iron Born, if that doesn't happen, then Frey doesn't have Robb Stark by the balls. However we do detail alot of the ripple effects that happen if Iron Islands doesnt attack the North and that includes Robb potentially not breaking his marriage pact ( at least in the books). 2. Correct, we never fully include the Vale into our calculations, but looking at them how everyone else would, they would assume they would just put their lott in with the Northern Alliance. Even if they joined at the end, thats a good chunk of additional reinforcements, fresh and ready. Hope that clears some things up ! - Thom
@TheFandomeClips lysa would never have brought the vale into the war without littlefinger giving her the go ahead, the Vale is limited to a last minute reinforcement at best
That's why the real game winning move for the Starks is to give Baelish what he wants: Cat. Marry her to Baelish make him Robb senior advisor and win. Baelish disposes of Lysa and installs either Robert/Robyn or Harry and the Vale crushes the Lannister eastern flank The tyrells pull back or declare their own independence and Dorne follows suit Stannis takes KL sure but doesn't have the resources to re conquer the continent
@@Tvhurdghit4fhi6rr I think the decisive moment would be if Stannis takes King's Landing. If that heppends, Littlefinger knows Stannis will kill him, and the Lannisters would be way too weak to actually win. In this case, I believe Littlefinger will switch sides, bring the Vale into the Northern Coalition to secure independence and concessions.
@@davidlewis5312or give Lysa what she wants: Marry Baelish who's probably going to be happy to become lord of the Vale. Then only make sure to persuade Lysa to send Robyn to her brother Edmure to be trained in the riverlands. Else as soon as Baelish has a son with Lysa, Robyn would have a mysterious accident.
I have one complaint over this vid: ASOIAF is a very grounded series and it would take some very powerful blood magic to raise Balon's IQ high enough to not fuck it up xD
a - raid wealthy region and join winning starks b - refuse starks offer and raid their poor swamp castles c - turn back and go inside castle where your security will protect you or pull a knife to your younger/stronger brother on wobbly bridge
Everyone hates the Ironborn. However, the Greyjoys may marry a Lannister at some point if they want to avoid a reign of terror. And since Theon is already betrothed to Sansa at that point, it only leaves Yara. Coincidentally Robb has an heir to Casterly Rock in stock. But I'd say both would potentially prefer death than being forced to marry let alone produce an heir. And Jaime is marked for death anyways with the sun of winter always above him
@@pergos1 That's what I was thinking. Rob conquers the nobility of the land, the iron born the coast, and it's gifted to the Iron born... the iron born just become the "richest" kingdom, already have some mining experience, and with rob at their back they may be a bit less tyrannical. The small folk won't rise up, and the other threats are out. The biggest threat would be an independent Reach with a strong fleet and stronger unblooded army deciding they deserve the gold more than the Iron Born, which is a war I think the reach win, and the north.... allows.
In the show they had Theon swear fealty to Robb and ask Balon to do the same. That was a dumb change from the books imo. It should have been presented as an alliance of equals, even if the anorth with it’s greater manpower and resources was the sr. partner.
*The North. Balon should have either offered Tywin an alliance before invading the North or allied with Robb in exchange for some land and invade the Westerlands. Casterly Rock might not fall, but the Greyjoys could have taken Faircastle, sacked Lannisport and raided the coast.
Treated as equal or not, Balon is stubborn enough to fight a rebellion 10 to 1. It was his pride and hatred for the Starks that prevented him to ally with Robb. He didn't think twice what would've been good for his house and people. And he was blinded by the tales of the old way in which the Ironborn were mighty enough to take everything themselves without any help. Tywin would've welcomed Balon's offer to attack the North. Eventually they'd stab each other in the back because the Greyjoys want independence and the Lannisters want dominion over all of Westeros, but it could've been profitable. The idiot had to attack the North first, having nothing more to offer to Tywin. It was long overdue that the old kraken fell off the bridge
@@CatotheE I think that maybe for a long time now and to an even greater degree than the North, the Ironborn have been yearning to become their own country again. And so by donning the Driftwood Crown and breaking away from the Iron Throne, Balon might have hoped to endear himself to his people by provoking their sense of patriotism. Of course by doing so he lost any chance of gaining royal favor or any reward he might have gotten from Tywin for his troubles.
You hint at it here, but Tywin’s actually a pretty poor military commander. He spends months at Harrenhal letting the rest of the war develop not necessarily to his favor, marches in the wrong direction instead of reinforcing the defense of King’s Landing, and only pulls out a W by dumb luck…hmm, methinks there’s enough material for a whole video on the subject.
he made a pretty big mistake by judging Robb to be a joung boy way over his head, rushing to battle not knowing what he was doing. And got wrecked by it, only then he went for the political and subterfuge way.
@@warlordofbritannia He stayed at Harrenhal because it was a strategic position that allows him to block the vale and the north armies from approaching KL and the river lands.
Único erro do Tywin foi subestimar o Robb, o resto estava certo. Ficar em Harrenhal era o mais correto pois ele conseguia fechar o caminho do Robb para Porto Real, ao mesmo tempo que se o Renly ou o Stannis resolvessem atacar, ele conseguiria marchar para salvar a capital. Tywin só sai de Harrenhal quando o Renly já estava morto e Stannis estava cercando Storm'sEnds, que pela história, sempre dura muito tempo. Com Stannis ocupado por meses, talvez um ano, Tywin poderia focar em Robb. A loucura é que Stannis usa magia, algo que nunca está nos cálculos, e consegue tomar o castelo rapidamente, mas logo que Tywin fica sabendo, marcha rapidamente para Porto Real, sabendo que Stannis atacaria. Se Edmure n tivesse atacado, os ocidentais teriam passado o rio, e não teriam como voltar a tempo. Então Tywin teve sorte também, mas sua estratégia fazia sentido. Agora, se ele ao em vez de ficar em Harrenhal, fosse para a capital direto, teria sido um problemão. Deixaria os nortenhos muito perto, podendo até tomar parte das terras da coroa. Conseguiria frear um exercito inimigo, mas o outro viria rapidamente e quebraria a defesa cansada de Porto Real. Além de abrir espaço para alianças, imagina Robb com todo o seu exercito em Harrenhal ou Duskendale e Stannis após derrotar Renly
By staying at Harrenhal's central location means that Tywin can block Robb from King's Landing but is also close enough for him to march on Stannis or Renly if they siege the capital
@@the_archmaesterif he ever left Harrenhal, the North, the Riverlands and the Vale would converge. Tywin has Edmure not sticking to the plan, Lysa going loca, Balon being Balon and a thicc nurse to thank
The only real way they could win would be if a plague broke out on the mainland killing 90% of the population and Greyjoys survive due to their greatest asset (living on a separate island)
or if a long knight come and the oters the wite walker kill everyone in westeros, but the iern islands survive cuz the wite walker can't walk on water (it a little known fact but i hav a theory they can only walk on snow thats why they are call wite walker. notice they r not caled watter walker otherwise they willed simply walk around the Wall. altho i do wonder why they haven't simply walk up the Wall, since it is made of snow, which acording to my theorey they should b able to walk on. maybe they're ded servents cant walk on snow? something to consider. never thogut of that before
@pIayingwithmahwii they don't walk up the wall, because they're not immune to gravity. Also I think it's implied that the wall is magical and they can't cross it/ climb it.
Who? I don't know who you're talking about.... JKing! Liams not going anywhere, he's already recorded the next video and I'm halfway through editing, now he's moved onto the one after that ! - Thom
Hey Hayden, my name is Liam (the other guy with the more annoying and shouty voice) 😂 yeah I was chuffed to bits when Thom said he wanted to have a go at this one, if only to prove to everyone that he's a real person and not some voice in my head that I talk to 😂 we're baby stepping him into improving his recording set up so he can put his voice to use for more videos (we need to get his reverb/room echo down as you can no doubt hear in this vid) , which means more videos for you guys and I think it'll help us appeal to more people, his calm relaxed tone might be some peoples couple of tea vs my loud obnoxious projecting that I know irritates the crap out of some people 😂 thanks so much for tuning in as always matey! Liam
Dany dies in Meereen at the fighting pits. Sons of the Harpy sneak up to her and kill her while she is watching the great games. Jorah isn’t there as he was exiled and is in Volantis. Since Tyrion stayed in Westeros, Jorah doesn’t come back to save her as having Tyrion as his prisoner was the catalyst for returning to her.
All robb has to do was send someome like Rickard Karstark and Greatjon Umber as they were the most loyal stark houses in the earlier season to balon and threaten balon to help them or else they would kill theon. Maybe them balon would have given them those ships to take lannisport.
lol that’s stupid. Just point out how dumb Baelon’s plan is since it doesn’t give the iron islands much really and how raiding the westerlands would be more profitable.
You guys should try how Jon could win the game of thrones. His game starting post resurrection so hes really got a mountain to climb. Win conditions. Long night ended (the main goal) King Aemon Targaryen, King of the 8/9 Kingdoms (Dorne is optional, The wildings arent the walls coming down eventually)
Hey Hubert! Randyll Tarly apology will likely be part of the re uploaded commanders vid, you can hear me grovel to the Ran man there 😂 we also have a LF video in the works but I'm not sure when it's due to drop, but don't worry they are in the works! Thanks for watching as always mate! Liam
If Westeros completly shatters into 7 independant kingdoms and establishes peace, Dany might view this as a sign that she should move on, as the Targeryens did when Valerya fractured and she might establish her new empire in Essos, she has all the Dothraki, she has conquered and subjugated Mereen and all other slaver cities, she was already on her way to establishing a new empire that could prosper and keep on growing in Essos.
@@flavius5722 what? only bran's a warg and no evidence he can affect a dragon. mel said shadow baby was a one and done. he'd never survive doing it again. everyone can have scorpions. its not a dorne-specific tech. technically cersei should have had that war won but for no reason, almost none of her scorpions fired. but that is with a few weeks prep. in this scenario she'd invade and no one has that kind of time.
@@godemperorofmankind3.091 In the books all the Starks children are wargs and dragons are with nothing special than other animals Also Melisandra created two shadow babies And the scorpions were invented in Dorne ( not by the homless wizard ) imediatly after Aegon invasion , that is why Dorne was never conquerd by the Targherians
@14:37 I mean the Seven Hells would freeze over before Stannis allowed Shireen to be married to Tommen because Stannis knows Tommen is a bastard born of incest. Edmure meanwhile is the trueborn son of Hoster Tully and the (either soon-to-be or actual, depending when we're talking about) Lord of Riverrun, so marrying Shireen to him isn't really that bad of a deal (aside from the fact that Edmure is around 30 whereas Shireen is like 10, but that kind of marriage wasn't uncommon in Medieval times or in the Game of Thrones setting (THANKFULLY, no consummation of the marriage was done for a few years in such cases.)) The only mental roadblock Stannis has to overcome is the fact that Edmure is on Robb's side in declaring independence from King's Landing, which IS a major thing for him to be cool with, but MUCH less so than the ideas of ex. marrying Shireen to Tommen, swearing allegiance to Joffrey, or swearing allegiance to Renly when Renly is younger than Stannis and Stannis has an heir.
Why to Edmure, Rickon and Bran are still alive , despite what most people think the medieval alliances dont consist only I the bigger sons and heirs of one family, especially because most of the time you don't ally with the boy but with his father
They are very away from one another, of course is plot convince that the Martels appear and do something only after Robb is killed În the book Doran Martell is a man of scheiming and paciente, so much so that the things that he wants get done naturaly before he even decide to act
The very best scenario for Greyjoys: 1. Be cool and make friends with the North. 2. Take And occupy Lannister lands. 3. Start sowing and mining. Grow their numbers and their resources in order to become a legitimate and feared House. After this is accomplished in the span of 30 years, then we can talk about the Greyjoys expanding into the Reach. More than likely though this will agitate the North if the War is already won by this point. The War needs to go on in order for the Greyjoys to take more land. Another scenario, Greyjoys are a sea-faring people capable of traveling long distances by sea and rivers where there isn’t any enemy activity that could jeopardize their sea operations. After they occupy Lannister lands for 30+ years they’d have the numbers to actually found colonies in Essos and other unexplored continents, imagine the exotic resources and large amounts of wealth they’d accumulate and bring in from these far, distant lands. They’d be like the Spanish pioneering an entire age of exploration and possibly kicking off the industrialization of Westeros.
with most of the videos, i feel that the usual best thing you could do, no matter what house you are, is stay out of it, and just bend the knee to whoever is the strongest at the time. if i was balon, i'd stay out of it until i was sure the Lannisters would win, then bend the knee. then when Dany sails over, guess what? i've got a nearly untouched army and armada ready to go for her. I offer my son as her king, and bada bing bada boom, greyjoys are top dog.
While an alliance with Robb was the smart move there’s no way Baylon would ally himself with the son of the guy who helped crush his rebellion. However the Greyjoys might have won if Theon was a little smarter. Theon’s capture of Winterfell was ingenious but trying to keep it with 20 men was idiotic. As his sister told Theon later he should have kidnapped Bran and Rickon, torched Winterfell, and Brought the Stark boys to the Iron Islands as hostages. Then Baylon would have forced Robb to negotiate with him. He could have forced Robb to recognize the iron islands independence and kept some of the northern land the Ironborn had captured. Not quite a complete victory but a good one.
This is a what if scenario,so Baelon said yes Your plan is too complicated for Baelon 🤯 But by torching Winterfel just lead more to Robb's downfall ,and the Boltons or whoever come after him have no interes in Rickon or Bran's lifes
Putting his grudge aside. Keep in mind that the North was undefended and was easy pickings, whereas the Lannisters still had a sizeable army in the Westerlands that could repel an attack from sea. Also, how could he have known that Robb could get past the Golden Tooth (which is basically the Lannister's very own Bloody Gate)? Yes in hindsight we can see how badly he miscalculated, but that being said if we go into ACOK blind. I don't think any of us would have entertained allying with Robb had we been in Balon's position.
@8:14 I wouldn't make fun of Thom for saying "opportunitist" when the word is "opportunist," except that he always roasts Liam when Liam makes mistakes so eat it Thom!
Yeah going against the Starks was stupid by Balon. Robb had literally the same goal as him, forming a Kingdom independent from the Iron Throne. They could form a Powerful Alliance in the North of Westeros or at least be neutral with each other so they can campaign in the south with safe northern borders. Fighting the Starks was only for pleasing Balons ego.
To make it even better I think Olena/Mace would try to Mary Margery to Robb, and then Robb should marry Sansa to Theon to further secure the alliance provided he can get her back. Then there’s still Arya, Rickon and to a lesser extent Bran who he can marry for alliances, and he’ll potentially even John if he wants to legitimize him and release him from the nights watch
I haven’t watched the video yet but the only way I see Mace marrying Margaery to Robb in the books is if he’s going to become king of the seven kingdoms, because his great ambition is to have a child on the iron throne. I see the Tyrell pact with Renly remaining, provided they both accept Stannis’ terms of becoming his heir which I’m not sure in itself is that likely.
@@hi-ls6lt true I was more thinking that the goal was to have Margery as a queen which marrying Robb would accomplish plus then she would be queen of 3 of the seven kingdoms with the possibility of a 4th with the vale if Lysa gets her head out of her ass ( a tall order but some lords (bronze Yohn Royce and others) were already pushing to join) and now with a 5th the iron islands as a close ally, and now the westerlands completely surrounded would be relatively easy to take for the combined force of 4 or 5 of the kingdoms.
The Danerys will not be that big of a ptoblem if the kingdoms are separated ( in the book version ) The Dorne will just give Scrpions to anybody else , Tyrion had use Scorpions at the battle of the Blacwater , and the masters in general must know about them ,espicaly now that they appear in House of the Dragon By the way Dany has 3 dragons but just one rider Robb, Arya and Bran can all warg , and Danerys got pioson in her drink back in Mareen
I have to disagree with you on the Tyrell situation. The Tyrells dont have the political capital in the Reach to claim independence. Both the Reach and the Riverlands never had strong Lords Paramount, because both the Tyrells and the Tullys got their power due to the Targs. They were not historically kings… like the Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, etc. The Reach had for instance the Hightowers, and a lot of strong houses who rivaled the power of the Tyrells. One particular problem the Tyrells had at this time was House Florent. They were a powerful house that claimed descent from the Gardeners, the original rulers of The Reach. Selyse Florent was married to Stannis Baratheon… who as you well know HATES the Tyrells due to the Siege of Storms End during Robert’s Rebellion. Thus, the Tyrells need an alliance at least with another power. Long term neutrality wont work. If Stannis wins, he will punish them for their prior actions and for not assisting him with getting the throne. Alliance with Stannis is out of the question, punishment will still come due to prior actions. If the Lannisters are too weak to ally, they have really two options: 1) Join with the Kingdom of the North and Riverlands through marriage to Robb Stark… the heck the Freys 2) Work with Dorne to secure a Targaryen Restoration…
Aside from the Florents, the Tyrells were actually quite secure at the start of the War of Five Kings. Mace Tyrell’s wife was a Hightower, and his mother Olenna was a Redwyne, which secured two of the richest and strongest houses as Tyrell allies.
Nah ,they have all the power to declare independence Any house who had tried to take the power from the Tyrells had become broke : Peak and Florent The Tyrells had married Gardeners womens multiple times , and they had ruled Reach as regents Mace in particular has family ties with all the important houses
Did I miss Dorne being mentioned? Good scenario though it really comes down to when the Separatist Alliance makes it to Casterly Rock in full strength. While the Ironborn are there, and they will be able to do a lot but I don't see the same gains as when they attacked the North. The Westerlands have a better chance to know about the attack thanks to Faircastle so the diversion attack they did to lower Winterfells defenses won't be the same. Really a lot of raiding of towns where the Westerlands peasants and commoners will be the ones being hurt. This I feel will be the important bit as basically if the Northern-River forces don't make it before the Battle of Black Water then the marriage of Joffery and Margery will be planned still leaving the Iron Throne the Reach and Crownlands, the Westerland forces Tywin had with him, Dorne if the marriage of Myrcella is still on and I'd see some Stormland since in this Stannis lost some and if I recall in the books some of the houses (or at least what they owned) were then taken by the Iron Throne. No real mention in the show what happened but I do see something like this. If it does start going in this direction looking at more even sides with now the Reach being the larger force for the North to clash with, though I am guessing the Ironborn will now look to having their raiding down there with their Lords who didn't get much in the Westerlands really pushing for Reach plunder, and with their Westerland holdings can make more constant raids since repairs on ships will be better. The really turning points will come from one of 2 things how much Dorne will support the Iron Throne and if Lysa Tully does keep the Vale out of the fight, as Littlefinger was controlling/manipulating her and essentially the Reach's foreign policy. If he sees Dorne not supporting the Iron Throne I bet he will then tell her join the Separatist wince they are now down to less then half with the Westerlands & Stormlands being gutted, with the Reach's forces being split between defending the Reach itself. From there it depends on if the other Reach houses specifically House Tarly feel if the Crown of the Iron Throne isn't worth it as in the show he was ready to turn on the Tyrells for power. In exchange for leaving the Reach alone the Tarly's will help the Separatist, and Robb will agree with this though Balon will take issue since he is fighting for his old ways with slaves needed to work fields. A thought over will be done with Theon telling Robb his father will have his Iron Price even if it means war with the North & Riverlands. Robb knows if their Alliance breaks it will make their wins mean nothing as if they get the Reach out the Iron Throne will have nothing. So the Ironborn will get the Arbour and a fair amount of land near it. The Tarlys then claim as Kings of the Reach using a mix of how pretty much all Reach House come from Garth Greenhand and the Separatist Alliance strength. Dorne then fully leaves as Doran in the show isn't the schemer from the books but a more peaceful man who sees if war isn't needed don't do it, and the Iron Throne will then ask for Myrcella back however the war is done, the seven kingdoms will be separate as with them having lost their most complete armies and the Vale moving in. A surrender is given and many prisoners exchange, and Robb might actually not take Joffery's life since it only would happen if they try to claim the North the wording of his Terms are a bit unclear there. While it is unknown how he will respond to hostages & wards since he might want nothing to do with them after this, Balon will want revenge and make those who made him feel humiliated feel the same even though they are all gone but still. Tywin will have to surrender Fair Castle, and give up lands just like the Tarly deal but will have to give up one more thing one of "Roberts" children, just like Balon had to give up his, and I don't think it will be him looking at the heir as who even knows what will happen in the Stormlands but Myrcella who will be arranged to Theon as a Salt Wife when she is older. I know in this you mentioned Theon and Sansa but Balon still wants to Old Ways as his end goal, so if Theon would have to make Sansa his Rock wife to keep his alliance or have her be a salt wife breaking it, or just leave the North & Riverlands alone and focus on his gains. I am assuming while this is going on Joffery and Margery didn't have a chance to get married as the War was going on, and now they are out the Reach might very well go into a civil war with the Tarly vs Tyrells. While brought up both sides are done fighting and since the Tyrells just wanted a Royal Marriage Dickon will marry Margery. The Tyrells would then return back to being Stewards and recreating much of how they were before Aegon's Conquest.
One slightly small probleem for the ironborn with the white walkers and there wights those undead are dead they dont breath so they don't have to swim they can walk on the sea bottom Aka pirates the 1 movie style or the the others/whitewalkers do a bit of ice magic and use glasiers
I could see Dany returning and getting the full support of Dorne, since Doran was already planning to support her. She might get the support of the Reach if she marries Loras or one of the other Tyrell sons in the books, since they might view the dragons and Dorne's support as a one-way ticket to power if they hop on early and have a Tyrell marry her. Even though Stannis really doesn't want to forgive Robb's rebellion, he might make peace if he becomes aware of the white walker threat, though he would do so only to allow Robb to head north to fight them, Stannis would be too busy with the south to send much help himself. Either way, whether Stannis made peace or not, Dany would overrun him quickly with her armies and dragons, though Stannis's magic might be an obstacle in that scenario, maybe taking down a dragon or something. If the Vale hadn't committed their forces to any side, they likely would commit to neutrality as soon as Dany shows up, and then swear fealty to Dany after she defeats Stannis or when she potentially continues north into the Riverlands. The Reach forces could push the Ironborn out of the Westerlands, but they wouldn't be able to stop their coasts from being raided. If Robb stays in the south, he might be able to fight scattered Dornish and Reachmen armies, but he wouldn't be able to fight dragons. There might be some strategy where Robb and Balon can tag team, hitting and running, wherever the dragons are not, distracting and pulling them to one place while attacking another, but considering how quickly the dragons can move and how slow normal communication can be in relation, they would be walking a very thin line, with every misstep costing thousands of men and potentially dozens of ships. Any strategy would fail though when the North gets invaded by white walkers and Robb is forced for leave or potentially beg for help.
An alliance with Dorne it means marriage eith a Martell , so no space left for the Tyrells But with the Lannisters death and no more Iron Throne ,Doran dosent need Dany , so no alliance with them either , they actualy send the sand snakes to eliminate her as threat to their independence
Balon couldve easily accepted Robbs offer. Robb couldve allowed Balon control of Lannister lands in the Westerlands if Balon joined together with Robb.
All in all good analysis. However I do my diverging takes. 1. Given Lysa's mens rea (god being a law student is destroying my humanity), I think whatever the Vale does is dictated by the political motivations of Littlefinger. Given that Littlefinger's goal seems to be becoming the most powerful person in westeros, I think he is going to make strides in aligning the Vale with the Reach as the most powerful faction in the fall out. Possibly also working with the Greyjoys in the Westerlands alongside of them. Either way, I think whatever the Vale does will be for the aims of making Baelish the most powerful man in westeros or as powerful as he can be. The only difference I think is the scope and scale. 2. I don't think the Tyrells would necessarily secede and become the kings/queens of the reach simply because I think doing so would put too much of a target on them than they are used to and probably want. Instead, I see the Reach taking a more disputed territory approach where they leverage their grain supplies to marry themselves into as many ruling families in Westeros as possible (IE Margery to Bran, Loras to Yara or Shireen, etc.). Not everyone will accept these offers, but winter is coming and the Tyrells in this scenario have all the bargaining power and even the winners in this war of the five kings are in no position to be picky. 3. The Martells are in an interesting place seeing how there are no more vengeance to be had (outside of maybe the mountain and perhaps Stannis if they stretch it). However, if we go with the book version of them where they are also seeking to regain their place in court, then I can see them offering whatever naval forces they have to bring Dany to Westeros in exchange for a marriage pack with Quentin or even Oberyn seeing how he is alive in this chain of events. Maybe they can even throw in hiring the Golden Company to help sweeten the deal. 4. Assuming all of these events occur, then once Dany crosses the narrow sea, the only kingdom she really has to conquer would the be Reach. One she takes highgarden (or in all likelihood the Tyrells would give it to her in exchange for some place at court and/or keeping their stations as wardens) all she would then have to do is cut off any supply chains and only reopen them in exchange for bent knees. Those who don't accept this offer gets visitations from the unsullied, Dothraki, and dragons. 4a. If this occurs, all the Greyjoys have to do, as stated in the video is demonstrate a lack of use for the Iron Islands to Danny or, they could do the Greyjoy equivalent to what the Dornish did during Aegon's conquest but in the Iron Islands. Make it impossible to justify the cost of reconquest
@@12gark ah you’re assuming she still becomes a faceless man in this timeline. It’s entirely possible she is returned to winterfell where she is trained to be a lady instead.
@@adamcahoon6362 Arya training to be a lady? She may very well never become a faceless man in this scenario, but a lady? Not even the idiots writing season 8 tried that route 🤣
@@12gark Oh I didn't say they would succeed. But that would almost certainly be the goal for house stark as it was in the canon story prior to the war of the 5 Kings.
One problem with your tyrel motivation discussion. The Tyrells will not be able to hold on to the reach without an outside force keeping them there. They have a bunch of vassals that have better claims to the rulership of the reach. They didn’t rule the reach before Aegon the conqueror. They need the iron throne and to maintain their position. So I think they would team up with the lannisters against stannis but I think they would drag their feet about pitting their men against the north and co. And Tywin would have nothing that could force them as he would be completely reliant on them.
Thats a great point, I suppose that helps Balon and Rob though as it might cause internal power struggles that The Tyrells are going to have to expend themselves to contain! Great points though Bleach mon!thanks for watching! Liam
Actually, the Tyrells are currently perhaps in the strongest position they ever had, having close alliances with the Hightowers and Redwynes, the two other most powerful houses in the Reach. However, should a coalition of less powerful, but still significant houses ally against them, like the Florents, Tarlys, Merryweathers, Peakes, and most of all the Rowans, they might still lose.
They do have accrued legitimacy on account of having ruled the Reach for the past 3 centuries, though I could see a future schism with the more powerful Reach houses - maybe the Arbor and Oldtown break away, leaving a smaller, but more easily controllable kingdom. There's also the argument that the Reach will stay united out of fear of Ironborn conquest - the Arbor and Oldtown were previously controlled by the Hoares, and with their newfound position in the Westerlands, a divided Reach would be ripe for conquest
Tyrells could Marry Loras to Danny to secure an alliance? many westermen hate the iron born so id assume alot of the lords would turn to the invading danny as the better option. Dorne would ally with Danny as well defiantly a cool match up . I doubt the northern alliance would withstand the Targs
Nah ,they just become all kings ,why to give up the independence ? If Loras marry Danerys , the Martells are going crazy and bring the scorpions bolts ,and the Kings Landing already have those Loras dosent want to marry If Stannis see Dragons flying over he is summoning a Shadow baby ,no matter the cost If the Starcks are seing Dragons they enter panic mode and bring all the wargs în the North to bring the nuclear lizards down
Lannisport does not have any gold in its mines. Tywin said in the series that those gold mains of theirs have ran out years ago. And if tywin dies, their whole economy dies with it.
In the show thats said. In the book, thats not the case as Robb and his men were robbing the mines around the Westerlands 😅😅 Not actually sure why they decided to take that route in the show tbh 🤷♂️ -Thom
@@johnysnoww3831Even in the show it made no sense the Gold mine would run dry. Gold deposit like that wouldn't go empty that quickly without modern equipment.
dont forget dorne. at this point oberyon was still in dorne. he would have for sure joined if The north, Stormlands, Riverlands, and the iron islands were ALL fighting the lannisters. One iorn-born ship to the south with a message easy win.
I think Stannis would bend the knee. If this coalition has taken the throne via conquest, he'd accept it. His gripe was the fact the kingdom was his by right of succession. Once the Baratheon/Lannisters no longer have the throne, he'd probably recognise the new regime and head back to Storm's End.
Love the animation parts, and Very succinct but too many wins. I’m gonna need Euron to throw a bit more chaos into the fire; like the moment baylon agrees to ally, he sails to gets Danny, blows his horn and burns it all down… win win win 😅 like a true iron islander.
@@12gark dammit man, why did we all have to get hooked to that lazy fatso's intriguing story. We should have been spending our time reading already finished tales like Elric of Melnibone by Michael Moorcock or the Malazan book series. Brandon Sanderson is prolific as heck as a writer, yet ASOIAF has sucked up all the attention. Ah well, what can we do, eh?
The Freys should nhave done what they've been doing for thousands of years. stay behind their high walls, then bend the knee and join whoever is the likely strongest. do this and they could have joined Dany when she sails over, with an intact powerful army and maybe gotten a marriage out of her.
@@Alex-bz8lj ok ur right we dont know that much about the dragon knigt. also is jon snow really That skilled of a warrior that he's better than all of the other targareon's?? obviously we kno him the most by far but still... oh then i wonder, hyperthetially, do u think jon snow could have beaten robert baratheon on the trident if he were magically replaced of rhaegar that day? also what about aemon One-Eye as far as ur overall targareon warrior rankings. oh and i know he doesnt really count but where would u put daemon black fire? what about bitter steel and blood raven? in terms of being warriors for all those 3 guys how good do u think they was in terms of all the targereans?
I always thought Robb needed to somehow marry Margery, even if thats not something he could’ve orchestrated at any point really. But in a timeline where he won he should have done that
Balon Greyjoy (and the Greyjoys in general) are the avatar of dumb on the show. “If Balon Greyjoy were smart” makes no sense, as then he’d not be Balon Greyjoy.
Here's how the Iron Islands can win First Phase 1) Ally with the North to gain access to wood for building more warships. 2) Seize Fair Isle to use as a forward base. 3) Seize holdings along the coast such as Banefort, Crag, Kayce and Feastfires to divert troops to those areas 4) Destroy the ships at Lannisport and sack the city while the army is away. Second Phase (After the Tyrells form their alliance with the Lannisters.) 1) Wait for the Redwyne fleet and Tyrell host to depart to King's Landing. 2) Sweep in and destroy the shield island fleet and seize the Shield Islands to secure the Mander. 3) Capture the Arbor to use as a forward base to attack Oldtown. 4) Inform Stannis through Robb of the coming Redwyne fleet resulting in a naval clash between the Iron Fleet's biggest rivals. One will be destroyed and the other will be too weak to challenge them. 5) Sail Up the Mander and capture Highgarden. Proceed to sack every castle along the rivers, Goldengrove, Cider Hall, Longtable, Ashford, Bitterbridge , Tumbleton. 6) Destroy the Hightower fleet and raze Oldtown. 7) Sack the castles along the Coast, Old Oak, Blackcrown, Three Towers, Sunflower Hall. 8) Set a trap for the returning Redwyne Fleet, using fireships of captured vessels. 9) Return to The Iron Islands or stay and secure the captured islands once winter arrives.
The first 4 were good ,exept switch 3 with 4 The second 4 are unrealistic : 1) At this point the Reach will know that the Ironborn were enemies ( if they still enter the war ) so they will most probably sent the fleet to the Westerlands 2) The shield islands will expect a attack 3) The Arbor too 4) Stannis fleet will be already destroyed at the Blacwater by wildfire 5) Higarden at this time is too strong to be captured by storming ( book version) , and the other castles are far inland , the Greyjoys lack cavalry and siege equipment 6) If the whole gole is to return home with gold ,the only think they will really have is hyper inflation But they don't have the man power to do all of these
@@flavius5722 Not necessarily, understand that this isn't chronologically set in stone but to give a general idea of what can be accomplished. 1) With a Lannister/Tyrell Alliance they would have to choose between going to deal with Stannis and the Royal Fleet or going against the Ironborn. Since King's Landing is in the more immediate danger I'm inclinded to believe that they will go for the latter. Paxtor will have taken the bulk of the reach's navy to fight Stannis 2 & 3) Even if the Shield Islands and the Arbor know of their coming, they won't know when. nor would it matter since they will be badly outnumbered and outmatched 4) Not if he is informed ahead of time Timing is the key to the whole campaign. So, it is important to ensure that Paxtor Redwyne's fleet is well on its way to deal with Stannis before descending on the Reach. As well as making sure Stannis is aware ahead of time of their approach. With this knowledge Stannis might postpone his attack on King's Landing rather than risk being caught in the rear during the attack. 5) Highgarden is a string castle but it's not Casterly Rock or Storm's End. The other Castles I mentioned are near a major river which can easily be accessed by Ironborn Longships. Even without the castles there are plenty of other places to raid. Farms, hamlets, villages, towns, weaker castles. Places that are not as well guarded. Also, the farms that can supply the Ironborn for winter. 6) Do you think the Ironborn would care about that? They will with the aid of the north and the Riverlands. Plus the wood provided by the North will allow for more Iron Fleet ships to be built But don't have to do all of these things. The main focus is eliminating all rival naval elements and securing the Arbor, The Shield Islands and Fair Isle. Far richer gains that the pitiful kingdom they carved up in the North.
@@George-Hawthorne Good points but the key is the timeline 1) In the books the redwyne fleet had set sail during the purple wedding ( the reason may be that Paxter twins were prisoners at KL , so based on the timeline ,the fleet will be there at the time when Ironborn arrive , already after the battle of the Blacwater 2) Even if the shield islands can't fight them at sea they will be prepared for a siege 3) I know that the show had ruined Higarden , and în the books it dosent have the piar campaign of Storm's End or the Rock (Dayne Johnson) but is still în top 4 ,on a hill surrounded by 3 walls each taller than the other , eith a labirint betwen 1 and 2 , and a giant Garden to provide food for the defenders And like I said the Ironborn lack the siege equipment and manpower 4) It will be much more important to concentrate on the Westerlands not to split forces thin against the two most populated regions 5) But I think their biggest chanches is propagandistic , if they and Robb make the idea of separatism more popular and fisebale, they already won , because the Lannisters may find themselves alone
@@flavius5722 1) My mistake, since that is the case then remain in the westerlands until the redwyne fleet does depart to partake in the siege of Dragonstone, since regardless the Redwyne fleet will have to do that, though this time they would sent as many ships to take part due to the ironborn. While they wait, they can build more ships and expand the Iron Fleet. 2 & 4) The shield islands may be ready for a siege but it doesn't seem like their castles are particularly strong if Harras Harlaw has proven anything. But taking them helps the Starks to. Securing the shield islands opens the mander to raiding and allows them to attack supply trains heading for King's Landing. The shields also give the Ironborn a staging ground to set a trap for the remaining Redwyne Fleet that will likely come to retake the Isles. Remember it was Stannis that defeated the Iron Fleet, not Paxter Redwyne so my money will go to Victarion this time around. 3) If Highgarden is too strong it doesn't matter since taking it is not essential, like I said the Reach has plenty of other targets. The Starks can ravage the Westerlands while the Ironborn do the same to the Reach.
@@George-Hawthorne If we assume that the timeline continue as usual ( wich is kind of dumb because the Iron -North alliance was supposed to change the course of the war ,not to keep it as it was or only change the outcome) Tywin will be hand and Mace master of ships , with the Ironborn declaring enemies from the begining so I am sure they will prioritize the fight against the Ironborn, Stannis had already abandone the island letting no war ships behind It was Cersei who prioritized Dragonstone over the Reach ,Tywin and Mace are more probably to take the initiative and attack the Ironborn back If you assume that Cersei will still get in to power, fine but that means Robb will still die at the Red Wedding wich will let the Ironborn alone Harras Harlaw didn't take the castles he won a trial by combat , if the Shields are prepared for siege , they probably will refuse the showdown ,or one of them will agree but the rest will refuse
Tbh, if Stannis were one for making political plays (he's not, but I digress) the move here for him would be to try to pull the unthinkable and ally the Tyrells after taking King's Landing. Since he's essentially installing his own religious leader in the form of Melisandre, it should be VERY easy to get his marriage to Selyse annulled (failure to bear a son after however long coupled with loads of stillborns and a healthy dose of medieval sexism) which solves half the trouble with the Tyrells on its own, by virtue of disconnecting him from a Reach rival. Then he needs a new wife, and as such a new Queen, and we all know what the Tyrell priority is. Stannis is militarily a genius but lacks politically and struggles to make people like him. Margaery is politically genius and managed to make a crowd like freaking Joffrey. Its advantageous. There is the issue of Stannis having... fun times... with Melisandre (Jon explicity says in the books that its obvious she's his "real Queen") but conveniently for this situation, I don't know how much Margaery would really care... especially the show version. She was very much chill with Renly sleeping with her brother (or making a threesome) so as long as the crown is still on her head and she's got some clout I don't think creating infatuation is on her priority list. This alliance gives Stannis the Reach, would boasts the largest army in Westeros and a huge fleet, and crucially has both the wealth and food to sustain his new capital (while also controlling other key exports such as academics and wine). It's about the only region he could pick up that, combined with his own holdings in the Crownlands and Stormlands, gives him a semi-viable position for pulling anyone else back into line and cobbling back together some shadow of the old Seven Kingdoms.
Ok, seriously. This is the fourth video I’ve watched on your channel. And did you guys just steal all my old posts off the ASOIAF message board from like a decade ago?
Realistically Robb should have worded his letter better as you can't 'offer' things to a greyjoy, the Greyjoys already proved they can take Lannisport easily on their own, as they did so under Baelon once, RObb needs to offer aid in something neither of them could have taken on their own, which is Casterly Rock, but even then, the Greyjoys don't do well with alliances.The last time they did one in the dance of the dragons, I believe that was the one time they did since being broken into subservience, they literally kept on raiding the kingdoms after the war had ended, which is bad for Robb if he wants to rule his fiefdom of the North and Riverlands in peace, as the Greyjoys being 'allied' would keep provoking the other kingdoms to military action, either forcing Robb to send troops to bolster the Iron Islands, or more likely, fight in the riverlands again as the other kingdoms would end up attacking him directly to rob the Iron Islands of supporting military. The Vale won't aid the North until Baelish orders Lisa to do so, they're nobility are stringent and hamstrung by her leading them, so no one would march without Her(Baelish's) order to do so, which if they did, wouldn't be to aid the North, as Baelish doesn't want Robb to get too powerful to hamper his plans to rule the ashes of the great houses. For Conquering the Westerlands, that doesn't gain Robb another kingdom to his realm, as he's the invader still, no one is going to willingly supply his men there with food, shelter or coin unless they're at swordpoint, which on top of having to have men patrol the riverlands already is just draining his manpower more than needs be when he has Tywin to contend with, not to mention the armies of the Reach, and Stormlands are not on his side, and have a size he can't dismiss. The Tyrells would likely still go with the Lannister alliance, as they have more to offer, if the Lannister's win, Margery is queen of all 7 kingdoms from the red keep, instead of 2 in the North, especially given they're in a weaker state and Tywin would have to make more concessions for the Tyrell armies to his banner, not to mention Robb wouldn't accept the marriage offer as he's already betrothed and stupidly thought no one knew about him cheating on his fiancee. Also Robb isn't in power because he's generally a nice guy, he's in power because he took it by force, same as stannis, he seems more agreeable and romantic a partner, but cheating on your first marriage before you even meet the wife is really shooting his reputation in the arm, while Joffrey's reputation somehow wasn't confirmed until after the tyrells met with Sansa, but they planned to get rid of that little shit anyway, so it doesn't change much of anything on that front. Catelyn, being five types of short bus special of a character, would still free Jaime though, she was so desperate and thought only she could do things, as evidence with, well everything she's done, from selling her eldest son to be Married for a bridge, kidnapping Tyrion, (which I still blame all the war and death on her for) and freeing Jaime, it's just in her nature to do so. The other big issue, besides how Baleon would absolutely have fucked it all up by being himself, is Euron taking over and just fucking off with the fleet to try and woo Danny in essos, because short of VIctarion remembering his character traits of "wanting to cut euron's head off first time he sees him" and having the right to do so since not only has he returned after being banished, he admitted he killed Balon to seize power, BEFORE he got power, and the other Greyjoy captains still respect him more than Asha as it was Euron's plan that got them to take Lannisport in their last rebellion so again, short of Victarion doing what he should have, Euron will still take the throne and the fleet away from Robb's side
Westlands did not perform the King of the Isles and the Rivers under House Hoare. The Riverlands and the Iron Island when one country. I doubt the Westlands would fall as quickly.
Step 1 kill balon Step 2 Marry yara to robb before anything happens in the riverlands Step3 destroy lannisport Step4 hope caster red wine doesn’t catch the greyjoys
I could imagine Asher forcefully marrying Jamie and reluctantly having kids with him to secure the Westerlands like how Tyrian marrying Sansa would secure the North for the Lannister's
In thos scenario i think the daughter of cersei would survive cause shes not cersei, shes young and given a few years to grow up could be marriage eligibile
had theon just taken bran and rikon and fled winterfell, in and out in an hour. he could have sent them back to his father, giving the leverage with the starks and lanisters, being in possetion of 2 stark sons.
@flavius5722 after Rob is killed, tywin would both need bran and rickon dead. So the greyjoys can ask for something in exchange for killing them. Maybe for their independence be recognised or half the North?
@@johnmitchell4043 For Robb to be death, you need the Boltons , so you cant negociate any land în the North Independence of the Iron islands ?? Baelon had never wanted the independence , he is a loyal dog of the Iron Throne Why would someone who want independence will waste his little resources in attacking the only other side that want independence until they both had reach a point when they have no power to defend themself from the Throne that they want independence from ? If Baelon had ever wanted independence he could at least stay neutral and letting the others fight so they left him alone No my friend Baelon ActionScript show that he want to crush any chanche of the ironborn to independence
@@johnmitchell4043 For Robb to die you need the Boltons, so no North land given And what stop Tywin from invading the Iron Islands and kill all of them Baelon has wasted his resources fighting the only othe faction that want independence
Is it reasonable to assume that the reason Balon decided to go to war with Robb rather than making common cause with him was because he didn’t think Robb could be so successful? Sure, the Westerlands was a much richer target and with the North and Riverland alliance's help, it could have been his. But at the start of ACOK Robb hadn't yet invaded the Westerlands, and there was no way anyone could have predicted he could. While Robb had won an impressive victory at Riverrun and dealt the Lannisters a crushing blow, the Lannisters were still going strong and had enough forces at home to repel an invasion from sea. Stafford Lannister was already mustering thousands of new recruits at Oxcross, meanwhile both Lannisport and Casterly Rock were heavily defended with some of the best armed and trained troops that money can buy. Any attack by the Ironborn would require Robb to be in the Westerlands to help them divide their strength. And despite having beginner’s luck, I don’t think Balon could have ever imagined that a teenage king with little experience in war could have done the impossible by slipping past the Golden Tooth and raising havoc for the Lannisters on their home turf. Sure the North was a less juicy land to plunder. But it was undefended, and there was less risk of retaliation in making enterprise in the North than in the Westerlands. I think Balon despite his lack of foresight, learned his lesson from the Greyjoy Rebellion and knew better to make an enemy out of Tywin Lannister. We know that Tywin rebuilt the fleet at Lannisport after Balon’s last rebellion, and as far as he knew at the time, the royal fleet was still very strong and in Tywin’s pocket (I don't think he knew Stannis had taken the royal navy with him to Dragonstone). And knowing Tywin's reputation for ruthlessness. Even if the Ironborn managed to plunder Casterly Rock and Lannisport by allying themselves with Robb. If Robb ends up on the back foot like he does later on in the books. Once Robb has been dealt with, Tywin would focus all his energy on bringing down his wrath on the Iron Islands, and he would have no doubt have finished the job Robert started. Robb on the other hand had no fleet either in the Riverlands or the North to invade the Iron Islands. So even if the invasion failed, there would be no chance of retaliation. Balon may not have been the best strategist in Westeros, but he wasn’t the worst.
The Greyjoys wouldn’t need Robb’s help to wreak havoc in the west. Stafford Lannister’s army was made up of green boys and a handful of veterans they survived the battle of Riverrun. Besides that the only major force is Forley Prestor’s 4k garrison at the Tooth. Lannisport has its city watch and the Tock has a garrison, but not enough to challenge a full Ironborn host. Why would Balon need Robb to divide the attention of the Westerlands forces? Robb didn’t need anybody to do that for him while he pillaged the region, and he has a much smaller his with him than what the Greyjoys could rally. Why would the Greyjoy rebellion teach Balon not to make an enemy of Tywin? He made Tywin look weak when he burned the Lannister fleet. It was Robert and the collective might of Westeros that crushed the rebellion. Tywin wasn’t involved in the retaliation. And Stannis has already declared to the whole realm he was king, and Balon would know that Stannis had complete command over the Royal Fleet. Even if Tywin did have the fleet, it would take months to circle Westeros, and they would be without Stannis’ ’ tactical acumen that defeated the Iron Fleet in the first place. As for invading the North. It definitely wasn’t undefended. Rodrick Cassel commanded a thousands strong host to retake Winterfell after Theon took it.
@@MorallyDubiousFrog This entire video makes a lot of correct assumptions based on foreknowledge. Yes, Balon would have likely conquered most of, if not the entirety of the Westerlands if he had allied himself with Robb. We know this with the benefit of hindsight. But what if we didn't have hindsight? If we go into the start of ACOK blind, there is no way anybody could have determined the outcome of the War of Five Kings. If we look at the political map at the beginning of the second book. Robb had just won a brilliant victory at Riverrun and was on a high. But while he had won a battle against Jaime's contingent of the Lannister host, Tywin was still camped out at Harrenhal with the main Westerland army. Meanwhile in King's Landing, Joffrey has been crowned King of the Seven Kingdoms. And while Renly and Stannis had both declared themselves kings, at this point in time nobody could have known where the Reach's allegiances laid, and if either of the Baratheon brothers were in a position to properly challenge their 'nephew' for the throne. For all Balon knew, anything was possible at this point in time. For example, if he made common cause with Robb and committed the Ironborn to attack the Westerlands. By the time he had taken Lannisport, Tywin could have already marched out of Harrenhal and crushed Robb's army, which would have resulted in Robb being killed or forced to submit. Heck, once word gets to Tywin that the Ironborn have invaded, he might have withdrew back to the Westerlands to deal with them and left a larger garrison in and around the Golden Tooth, thus making it even harder for Robb to invade the Westerlands from the east. This would have made his alliance with Robb completely useless because Robb can't help the Ironborn if he cannot even get into the Westerlands. As long as Tywin is able to march his army back to his own lands, which was still a huge possibility, then this would have doomed their invasion. Because unlike Robb, the Ironborn are mostly strong at sea but they didn't have a large cavalry force to reeve further inland. Robb was able to cause so much havoc because the army he brought were mostly a cavalry force. And once Tywin has expelled the Ironborn from the Westerlands, you can bet he would build a navy to invade the Iron Islands and that would have been game over for the Greyjoys. And if you think he can't. Don't forget that is what his ancestor Johanna Lannister did, when she built a navy to invade the Iron Islands in retaliation for Dalton Greyjoy's pillaging of the Westerlands 150 years prior.
@@barbiquearea Tywin was on the other side of the Riverlands, cut off from the west. And if he does manage to return Balon and his men can hop back on their ships. You arguing hypotheticals about Tywin suddenly crushing Robb and returning West mean nothing. I could just as easily say that Robb could’ve crushed Tywin and besieged King’s Landing. Or he could have the Northern lords mustering a new hosts at Winterfell that could crush an Ironborn invasion. And the Ironborn lack of cavalry would be an even larger disadvantage in the expansive North compared to the rocky foothills of the Westerlands. As I already said, Robb doesn’t need to help them and they wouldn’t want Greenlander aid anyway. The garrisons left can’t openly challenge an Ironborn invasion and Stafford’s host is not large enough and is full of green boys and the dregs of Lannisport. Johanna Lannister didn’t build her own fleet, she allied with the navy of the Reach to launch her counter invasion. And she did so after the Ironborn had thoroughly bled themselves in civil war after Dalton’s death. And the current Reach is allied to Renly, since he would absolutely announce his marriage to Margeary alongside his crowning.
@@MorallyDubiousFrog Yes I am arguing hypotheticals because these are all likely outcomes that Balon had to consider when deciding which allies and enemies he needs to make that would provide the Iron Islands with the most benefit. At this point in the war, the North had committed most of its fighting force to the war in the Riverlands. The Northerners didn't have that many troops left over to defend the homeland. Not to mention the western side of the North lacked coastal defenses and didn't even have a navy, plus they were not expecting an attack from the Iron Islands whereas the Westerlands having already experienced Ironborn raids in the past were more on their guard, and the fleet at Lannisport could fight them at sea. So while both sides had troop shortages at home, the North wasn't expecting an attack. Balon even pointed out to Theon that the North being distracted would be a great benefit to their invasion plans. Plus they had no navy to speak of that could fight the Ironborn ships, yet alone retaliate by invading the Iron Islands. Also Tywin returning to the Westerlands to repel an Ironborn invasion was a very likely possibility, even more so than Robb returning to defend the North. Balon had no guarantee that Robb was going to tie the Lannister host up in the Riverlands or prevent them from slipping back into their lands. Not only could he not have predicted Robb bypassing the Golden Tooth, the Iron Fleet had no way to take the Golden Tooth by sea to block off the Lannister's return. And this was another factor for why invading the North was an easier and less risky prospect because at least with the North, the Ironborn had a way to prevent the Northerners from returning to defend their homes. Unlike the Golden Tooth, the Ironborn were able to take Moat Cailin, and in doing so they managed to cut off Robb's only way back home, thus giving them complete free reign in the North, and only having to deal with some token forces left behind. Basically, while the Westerlands presented greater risk for greater reward, the Ironborn had less to fear by invading the North than they would by invading the Westerlands, because while the North can drive them out. They have absolutely no way of getting to the Iron Islands like the Westerlands, as they were closer and had an actual navy. That is why I think despite how things turned out, Balon was wise not to gamble with attacking the Westerlands. In regards to the Tyrells, they were still a wild card. It was only at the end of AGOT that Renly fled King's Landing and started rallying the Reachlords to his side. It was only around the middle of ACOK that Renly's marriage to Margery and his intent to usurp the Iron Throne became common knowledge. At that point in time it was still hard to tell where the Tyrell's loyalties lie. Even Cat hadn't gotten in on all the facts until she arrived at Renly's camp to met with him and Stannis for a potential alliance. For all Balon knew, the Reach could have still been loyal to Joffrey and by extension Tywin, which means he could have gotten help from the Redwyne fleet.
@@barbiquearea Both the North and West had committed most of their fighting forces to the Riverlands. But Robb still had plenty of men he could call upon in the North, he only brought 18k south because he was rushing to save his father. Meanwhile, the Westerlands have lost a major portion of their manpower and have had to scrape out the dregs of Lannisport to try and replace it, which is what they have Stafford doing. The Ironborn have historically and mincemeat of the Lannister navy twice while they were at harbor. There’s nothing suggesting they couldn’t do so again, especially with the Westerlands being primarily concerned with the Northmen. They wouldn’t be expecting another Ironborn attack. The Ironborn only faced token garrisons in the North because the region is vast and it takes time to muster, but even still Rodrick Cassel rallied thousands to retake Winterfell, and could’ve continued campaigning if he hadn’t been ambushed by Boltons. And as I already said, they don’t need to take the Golden Tooth. Tywin is already blocked by Riverrun. And even if he does make it back west they can retreat to their ships. Renly openly declared himself king, and would’ve obviously announced his queen Margeary as well. There’s also the fact that Balon’s invasion of the North had nothing to do with tactical risk or the level of reward offered, it was purely out of spite against the Starks. Asha herself points out during the Kingsmoot that the invasion was basically a waste of time.
If Robb Stark was smart, he would signed an allaince with the victor of the Stannis/Renly showdown at Storm's End (later confirmed to be Stannis). Robb's decision to delcare himself 'King of the North and the Riverlands' was an idiotic strategic move as it meant he could not ally with any of the powers within the Seven Kingdoms and the southern part of the realm (the Riverlands) was completely indefensible with few natural barriers. Just coz people like the Starks, this move is overlooked and it's probably more damaging to the Stark cause than Robb's marriage to Jane Westerling/Talisa.
It can be seen this way ,but also if you do the math , after the battle of the camps , Robb had 33k men vs Tywin 20k at Harennhal, instead of losing his time in the Westerlands he could had just go Harennhal, crushed Tywin with his superior numbers, more experience army ,and advantege of own terrain So basicaly Tywin and Kevan would had been death before any Greyjoy invasion or Tyrell -Lannister alliance
Speaking of the tyrells i think they could marry loras to dany. Like when dany lands on dragonstone or lands whereever in westeros, the tyrells would find out. So we have a dragon queen who is single and will require someone to continue her family line, send loras. Granted it might be weird terms of the alliance but still i could see olyenna going for it. And if she goes for it the tyrells go for it.
Let's be honest, Balon would probably find a way to muck it all up
balon is a so not intellingent and he doesn't deserve to share a name close to baelor brake-spear or baelon the brav. there are many noble men with the name that starts with "balo" and the iurn islands give us the worst one of all. i mean he isen't even brav, all he does is sit on his see stone chair and insult people all day.
i hav a question. if the iern island is all about earning ur right to lead and taking what u want, how did not intellingent balon become king?? or is the iern islands like the rest of westernos where the oldest son become the lord or the king? or isen't it?? i'll ad mit i'm a bit confused, because why does balon get to just become leader of iern islands because he is oldest, but eronn and asha and theon and victaron had to do a king moot?? should not theon become king becaus he is the oldest son o balon, much like how balon became in charg himself? or no? and why not?
and why eronn was aloud in charge then? and if it was so simple, why eronn did not become in charge back when their father die instead of balon?
@@pIayingwithmahwiiMix of that and the king's moot. Where all the Lord's of the iron islands, influencial officers and whatnot gather to choose a new king. Though I don't remember if that's only when the succession is unclear or when there is a clear heir.
@@philippeblais8594 so basically they did it because they didnt like theon cuz he foster at winter fell, and cause has no balls which means he wont make a good king cuz he cant hav kid? does that sum it up is that why they did the Moot when it should hav gone to Theon but not when it went to Balon?
They call a Kings Moot because Theon isn't there to claim the throne and some of them don't want a woman leading them so it puts Asha/Yaras claim in peril. Damphir wanted Victarion to go for the crown but Euron showed up to offer more.
If our version we solve the sexism issue with Theon being present and by helping taking the westerlands they've expanded the empire and shown they've got ambition or did something of worth.
-Thom
@@TheFandomeClips anything as long as Eronn doesn’t take the throne. Euron seem like a nice enough guy right now but I worry the power will go to his head and he will end up like Fake Aegon with a anger issues and he may start doing bad thing if he get any more power.
There something about that euron guy i don’t trust, I worry he could rlly do some bad thing if he get to powerful but maybe I’m not being fair to Euron who knows maybe he will turn out a good ruler. He seem kinda nice to his people the iorn islanders I guess a good ruler should care for they people right
Balon: Fuck the Starks. WE DO NOT SOW! We'll raid the North!
Theon: To get what? Pebbles and ice? Are we opening a bar? If we join the Starks our main job will be to get a literal mountain of gold!
Balon:....Ah shit, the lad is right. THE KING IN THE NORTH!
@@guillermopena8412 Balon was a dumbass
Here’s what Balon actually tells Theon in A Clash of Kings. "Casterly Rock is too strong, and Lord Tywin too cunning by half. Aye, we might take Lannisport, but we should never keep it. No. I hunger for a different plum . . . not so juicy sweet, to be sure, yet it hangs there ripe and undefended."
Robb’s army was in the south, and as Asha says in ADWD, the Ironborn would still be holding Moat Cailin if Balon hadn’t died and Euron hadn’t abandoned it. As it is, the fifty or so Ironborn left held off a large force of Ryswells and Dustins attacking from the north. Also, the North had never (at least since Brandon the Shipwright) had a fleet in the west, so even if the invasion failed, there would be no chance of retaliation. Balon may not have been the best strategist in Westeros, but he wasn’t the worst.
@@barbiquearea He should have still tried to get any reassurances from the Iron Throne, because since he didn't, he didn't get any allies, even though they would have welcomed him with open arms. But with Robb dying it freed the New warden up to march on Moat Cailin in force + with support of the Freys and if the war would have calmed down completely with support of the Iron Throne. This Lennister fleet he was afraid of would have blocked the access to the castle and made the Ironborns get heroically starved to death
@@barbiquearea n teriam n, com a tropa do Ramsay vinda pelo norte fosso cailin teria caído. Asha fala que o norte é muito grande para manter, n tinha como sair vitorioso.
Outra, balon queria independência, mas focou no inimigo do seu inimigo. Não faz nenhum sentido o cara querer independência do trono de ferro, e não atacar o maior apoiador do trono.
@@barbiqueareayeah because Balon wouldn't be aware that Robb is absolutely shredding the Lannisters 🤔
It’d be really funny if Robb gave the Boltons the Westerlands for their loyalty
If that happened, the Bolton-Stark beef would probably die on the spot lol
@@illusionattic6180 Maybe the Boltons can make Castamere their new capital instead of Casterly Rock.
That would be smart given if rob screws over the freys. If the Greyjoys take or just sack Castely Rock would deal such a blow that the Freys would be more hesitant to betray rob as the Lansters are weak and the grey joys never burn down wintefell.
Just send in Ramsay with Ser Twenty Goodmen, they'll take the Rock by themselves.
@@agent45625they would cause they enjoy the death. Also keeps them far away from robb.
Balon needs to stop breathing forever
okay, calm down Euron. - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips lol of all the bad things Euron did, him taking out Balon allows me to forgive everything else
@@OurHiltsHurt really dude? I agree Ballon stink as king, but im getting tired of everyone judging Euron pre judging him before they realy get to know him. we don’t kno for a fact if Euron did all the stuff ppl say’s he did. As of right now they are just accusations, notheng more. I mean do we rlly wanna repeat of what happen in season 1??
U know to whom I am refer to right? I mean I feel like I’m getting flash back to another Honorable high lord being accuse, just like everyone does to Euron right now. Who else remember Lord Stark, being wrongly accused of treason witch he didn’t commit but was punished for it anyway. Western is already a realy not fair country to live, so we can’t simply Ignore “do process” that say that all High Lords have that same access to a rightful trial made up of their pears or a trial of combat if they dasire.
Just because Euron is a little rough around the edges and a little awkward (just like Ned cough couch) doesn’t mean he don’t should not still have rights. Anyone of the great Lords deserves it.
About him. Tbh it seems like most of the accusation are from Euron brother’s, and his brother’s are just jelous that he got to become king and they hav to be stuck as a mear warrior and a mear priest XD which are lame imo. while euron get to be a king plus he is rich since he is a pirate. They are jelous for sure. Maybe if euron brother’s didn’t blame euron for everything bad that happen to them then they might have had the Grit and Determination to become king instead of euron himself, u. Never know. But instead they chose to be in their pity party and to insult euron and make accusation’s. U can’t win a campaign on nothing but attack ads. That is something I learned from the campaign trail.
I will grant u this. I will grant that I am sure that it’s possible, that Euron has possibly done some bad things, but everyone has in this story it’s the Game of Thrones, u win or u get deleted right?
This is one of the worst, they bring up some crime that everyone else in the story would commit about Euron, whom has done nothing that Jon Snow or Denarius herself wouldn’t do if put in his shoes. He is the one out there making the hard choices for all 3 of them. While they just coast along on all the love. Euron is the third head of the Dragon that Danny’s brother Ray talk’ed about for the Proffisee. The Whereas Jon is the Prince whom was Promised, Euron is the Third head of the dragon, aka the King whom was promised. Jon will take euron place perhaps we don’t know.
It possible Euron must take the iron thrown in order to save Westeros, we really don’t know for sure since Euron is such a mysteryou’s figure. I believe he is much like akin to Cerberus Snape from Harry Podder. By that I mean he can seem dark and edgy and rough a round the edge’s, but I have a feeling we will find out he is a bit misunderstood and at the end of the day he only wants wat’s best for the realm, just like a lot of fan favorite’s. Maybe Euron will teach Danny that she can’t help the people and save the world by being all friendly with kindness and smiles.
In order to help people at the end of the day u have to be willing to sacrifice them and get rid of anyone who standing in ur way to ur rise. People can’t be helped without this. Euron could teach Danny and Young Jon this lesson’s before he make a heroic sacrifice to save them. That is my theoretical on Euron Grey joy finally fate but we shall see I guess right? We shall see indeed
@@OurHiltsHurtI love y’all’s channel. When are y’all going to do a video on book Euron?
I tried this in a game of CK2 once. Did some raiding around the coasts, took Fair Isle, then ended up in one-on-one with Gregor Clegane, which given I was playing as Balon, went as well as you’d expect. Then Victarion took over, was a bit more successful, took Castamerr and fought off counter invasions, then a rematch to avenge my brother, and well I lasted longer this time.
Did victarion win?
@@alexanderkazantzis8019 I’m guessing by how the sentence was worded, NO 🤣
The thing is I don't remember Ck2 having naval battles, which is where you would want to fight if you were to do this.
@@breadbread4226 That seems like an oversight given the Greyjoys are all about Naval Combat.
he doesnt even have to be smart - he just has to be consistent with how his culture and his personality is written. Hes supposed to be a pirate and he lets the two richest kingdoms - stripped of their leaders and soldiers - just hangout while raiding the only place in the 7 Kingdoms that has nothing you can actually physically carry off to the Iron Islands.
Asha makes that point VERY clear in her Kingsmoot presentation when she shows the 'spoils of the North' twigs, pebbles, and acorns
this just shows lannisters thicc plot-armor. they would have lost in every scenario except the one in the books. whether the greyjoys side with robb or renly kneel to stannis or dorne wanting revenge or even vale joining the war. they must shit gold cause they are lucky as shit
Nailed it ! They were playing extreme mode in the books 😂 - Thom
It's not plot armour, it's George deciding to tell an interesting story, George wrote it so that balon was stupid because if he wasn't and renly kneeled and dorne entered the war then we wouldn't have got the story we got and could still get more of. The world George created was engineered for the lannisters to win because its a more interesting story, not because they have plot armour
@@Tvhurdghit4fhi6rr lol that literally wat plot armor is bro. U just define wat plot armor is like a diction arry. U can argue if it a good thing that they Lannister’s team have it, or if it was done good (I would say Yeas to both these questionnaires) but they DO have plot armor :) so yea
Yeas I agree with my own previous comment above. Plot armor is when something unrealistic happen (or a Serie’s of unrealistic avents unfoldeds) for the Sayk of telling a more interesting story.
But plot armor is an tool a righter can use, and like any toole it neither gud or bad. It depend on how the Arthur write that plot and how he use the plot armor toole. Just like a blade is neither good nor bad in and off itself, it depend how the man who wield the blades. Gregor cle gane wield the blade for evil, whereas lord Esdras Stark wield his blade for the purpose of good and honour. So yea the Lan Nister family has plot armor as we all agree here that if anything else happen the Lan Nister would’ve be crushed, and their false born” king” Jeffrey “Baratheon!” (Cough cough) but like u I agree that the event that train spire in the books the way they did was the most interesting story so it was a good use of plot armor to armor the Lannister tribe with a modicum plot armor
@@Tvhurdghit4fhi6rr most people nowaday have been seeing to many BAD plot armors. It’s like if u only ever seeing too many Gregor cle ganes out in the wild and u never see a honorable knight like Duncan the Tall, u will start to think all knight and all swords are evil if u only see a bunch of gRegor cle games.
Many Arthur’s are bad at righting plot armour in a affective manner. They do it as though a amachure. Now allow me to demon straight this form of amachore righting with a example, or a demonstraitshun, if u will.
A example of a bad plot’s armour would be if Danny Danaerys is coming to kill the Lannis family with her dragon call Drogon, but then there’s a random storm ⛈ and before she can finally attack, before she can to make to her dragon to attack to the Lannister’s, a random bolt of lightning ⚡️ thunder tcome out of the sky and kill her Beloved Drogon. That Thunder. We can all agree wood be a example of an bad plot example of plot armor, because Not Only it is a rlly unrealistic way to protect the Lannistars, from Danny, More Importantly it is a rlly Boaring story. Way more boring than if something mor kool and intaresting and in tree ging or creyaytiv happened (I think I spelled creyaytiv right thts a tough one to spell haha. There a red line underneath it but I think auto spell check or watever could be glitching agen.).
Casterly Rock is one of the greatest castles built inside of a mountain and has never fallen. the Lannisters have been fighting the Iron Islands for thousands of years. The Westlands are used to fighting the Iron Islanders. Their castles were built to fight those raiders from the sea.
yeah cuz the iurn island ppl are so dumb that they r rlly dumb. if u put me in chage of the iurn fleat i garantea u the castly rock would fall in a week or more. maybe even a month. all i would need to hav is eurin gray joy as my second in command general
or maybe i wood do wat trywin lanister did, accept to his own castly rock. think about it, as u say it's on a ocean. all i would hav 2 do is let the ocean into the castel, and it would floud. that's why every good king knows u never should build ur castels on a ocean, because it can easely be floudded. by the ocean water i mean, in case that wasent clere
@@pIayingwithmahwii While I agree, Casterly Rock does have its own Coastal dock. It's also taller than the Wall in the North. It'll be very hard to flood. George RR Martin says that it's the strongest Castle in Westeros.
@@DarkKing009 yes but the ocean is very large. the ocean has even more water then a lake by a long shot. i would say maybe a lake couldn't floud it the castly rock, but a ocean? how can it not be floudded by the ocean? i heard there is even more water than land on earth so i feel like it could flud anything since there is more water then land right? even if it is on a tall, i think the ocean is pretty deep which means it can sink into tjhe ocean no? and then get floudded
Our belief was Lannisport which is right next to Casterly Rock would be the weakness they can focus on which may in turn give them Casterly Rock. Even if the Rock holds out, they don't have to actively assault it, but they can take advantage of the lesser protected port which would most likely be an important asset.
Tywin has most of the army with him and Robb just annihilated whatever was left that they tried to raise at Oxcross.
IIRC Robb needed Balons help if he was going to take Lannisport, which might be well protected against the land, but not as protected against the sea.
Would have loved to see this in action though. - Thom
Step 1: Accept Robb's Offer
Step 2: ...
Step 3: Profit
What's Step 2? There is no need for a Step 2. Just go to Step 3.
the step 2 is the magic irun island secret ingredient. it's the secret engredient where they somehow screw it up, and replace step 3 with "loose another war" xD, and get robb killed even befoar ) the red wedding LOLL
BRO WAT THA Heck! U literally have the name "LordBloodraven" like the official youtube account with that name. sicne u joined u-toube in 2007! that's crazy! u have been a fan of the books longar than many new fans have even been alive LOL!
also btw can i plz get ur account? i would love to have that u-tube account! u can say no but it can't hurt to ask, right? lol
Robb’s offer was subordination in the show. It was a bad one.
The lannisters no longer had a fleet, nor the ability to defend effectively defend from the sea.
The lannister army was deployed in the riverlands leaving old men and green kids to garrison the castles. Meaning they would have no chance against hardened ironborn warriors. The difference between this and their campaign in the north would be that a.) they would have allies supporting them, b.) they would be fighting in a warmer friendlier climate that it would be easier to forage from, c.) the plunder actually would profit the iron islands.
@@CatotheE how? He offered to accept Balon as King if he'd do the same for him and fight alongside him. No one else would offer that. Balon's issue wasn't the offer, it was how it was worded ''He'll give me a Crown, GIVE ME a crown!'' That and he wanted revenge more than he wanted to strengthen his people.
Another nice bonus of this scenario is Theon would never be tortured by Ramsey and become Reek. He would hopefully find a way to stop being a little shit some other way but would probably learn something through fighting in the war as a Stark and Greyjoy and obtaining a position of power at the wars end.
Great video Fandome. However I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say we have waited long enough. It's time to finished what you started and do the extended how the lannister's could have won video.
Aha it's on the docket for sure ! Coming soon ! Like... at least this year soon...
- Thom
Two flaws though the overall move of accepting the offer is a good one
1. They still need the Freys to get to Riverrun. There is no water route to the east to relieve Riverrun without going around the entire continent (at least that I’m aware of). Without breaking the siege, they wouldn’t capture Jaime. Maybe the pressure on the Westerlands would cause them to need to withdraw but you still don’t capture Jaime that way.
2. Lysa controlled the Vale and wouldn’t let them join the war even when it seemed like the Lannisters were on their heels and the capital was going to fall to Stannis. It seems unlikely they would join the war until the war was virtually over if Lysa maintained control of the Vale
Aha just to fill in some gaps !
1.So Robb doesn't send the offer to Balon until he's declared king in the north, by that point Riverrun has already been relieved and Jaime captured. They've already got what they needed at that point from Walder Frey. Although Frey contributes 4000 men to the cause and is an important ally, Robb only needed his aid again when he needed to go back North to retake it from the Iron Born, if that doesn't happen, then Frey doesn't have Robb Stark by the balls. However we do detail alot of the ripple effects that happen if Iron Islands doesnt attack the North and that includes Robb potentially not breaking his marriage pact ( at least in the books).
2. Correct, we never fully include the Vale into our calculations, but looking at them how everyone else would, they would assume they would just put their lott in with the Northern Alliance. Even if they joined at the end, thats a good chunk of additional reinforcements, fresh and ready.
Hope that clears some things up ! - Thom
@TheFandomeClips lysa would never have brought the vale into the war without littlefinger giving her the go ahead, the Vale is limited to a last minute reinforcement at best
That's why the real game winning move for the Starks is to give Baelish what he wants: Cat.
Marry her to Baelish make him Robb senior advisor and win.
Baelish disposes of Lysa and installs either Robert/Robyn or Harry and the Vale crushes the Lannister eastern flank
The tyrells pull back or declare their own independence and Dorne follows suit
Stannis takes KL sure but doesn't have the resources to re conquer the continent
@@Tvhurdghit4fhi6rr I think the decisive moment would be if Stannis takes King's Landing. If that heppends, Littlefinger knows Stannis will kill him, and the Lannisters would be way too weak to actually win.
In this case, I believe Littlefinger will switch sides, bring the Vale into the Northern Coalition to secure independence and concessions.
@@davidlewis5312or give Lysa what she wants: Marry Baelish who's probably going to be happy to become lord of the Vale. Then only make sure to persuade Lysa to send Robyn to her brother Edmure to be trained in the riverlands. Else as soon as Baelish has a son with Lysa, Robyn would have a mysterious accident.
I have one complaint over this vid: ASOIAF is a very grounded series and it would take some very powerful blood magic to raise Balon's IQ high enough to not fuck it up xD
a - raid wealthy region and join winning starks
b - refuse starks offer and raid their poor swamp castles
c - turn back and go inside castle where your security will protect you or pull a knife to your younger/stronger brother on wobbly bridge
The westerlands hate the Iron Islanders. They'll never openly surrender either ever.
Everyone hates the Ironborn.
However, the Greyjoys may marry a Lannister at some point if they want to avoid a reign of terror.
And since Theon is already betrothed to Sansa at that point, it only leaves Yara.
Coincidentally Robb has an heir to Casterly Rock in stock.
But I'd say both would potentially prefer death than being forced to marry let alone produce an heir.
And Jaime is marked for death anyways with the sun of winter always above him
@@KeptaroLancel is a better choice, weaker willed and not as likely to be executed
Tell that to the Riverlands. They hated the Ironborn just as much yet submitted all the same in the days before Aegon.
Most of their lords will die either in Riverlands or at Blacwater , house Lefford was left without his lord even in the real timeline
@@pergos1 That's what I was thinking. Rob conquers the nobility of the land, the iron born the coast, and it's gifted to the Iron born... the iron born just become the "richest" kingdom, already have some mining experience, and with rob at their back they may be a bit less tyrannical. The small folk won't rise up, and the other threats are out. The biggest threat would be an independent Reach with a strong fleet and stronger unblooded army deciding they deserve the gold more than the Iron Born, which is a war I think the reach win, and the north.... allows.
It always confused me the Balon Greyjoy chose the barren North when Lannisport was available and they already had experience bringing it down.
Mind boggling right. Balon’s just a bitter man 😂 -Thom
to (keep in mind his motivation) get revenge on a dead man.
In the show they had Theon swear fealty to Robb and ask Balon to do the same. That was a dumb change from the books imo. It should have been presented as an alliance of equals, even if the anorth with it’s greater manpower and resources was the sr. partner.
*The North. Balon should have either offered Tywin an alliance before invading the North or allied with Robb in exchange for some land and invade the Westerlands. Casterly Rock might not fall, but the Greyjoys could have taken Faircastle, sacked Lannisport and raided the coast.
Treated as equal or not, Balon is stubborn enough to fight a rebellion 10 to 1. It was his pride and hatred for the Starks that prevented him to ally with Robb. He didn't think twice what would've been good for his house and people.
And he was blinded by the tales of the old way in which the Ironborn were mighty enough to take everything themselves without any help.
Tywin would've welcomed Balon's offer to attack the North. Eventually they'd stab each other in the back because the Greyjoys want independence and the Lannisters want dominion over all of Westeros, but it could've been profitable. The idiot had to attack the North first, having nothing more to offer to Tywin.
It was long overdue that the old kraken fell off the bridge
@@CatotheE I think that maybe for a long time now and to an even greater degree than the North, the Ironborn have been yearning to become their own country again. And so by donning the Driftwood Crown and breaking away from the Iron Throne, Balon might have hoped to endear himself to his people by provoking their sense of patriotism. Of course by doing so he lost any chance of gaining royal favor or any reward he might have gotten from Tywin for his troubles.
Balon would never stoop so low as to something like actually win.
😂 Incompetence is his secret weapon. I mean he did technically win the war of the 5 kings lol. Thanks for watching Jay! Liam
And Robb would be a prime target for Margarey
Nice to think how well it would go if only they listened to Robb's plan
Yeah, had to keep reminding myself this was about the Greyjoys considering how well it worked out for Robb! - Thom
You hint at it here, but Tywin’s actually a pretty poor military commander. He spends months at Harrenhal letting the rest of the war develop not necessarily to his favor, marches in the wrong direction instead of reinforcing the defense of King’s Landing, and only pulls out a W by dumb luck…hmm, methinks there’s enough material for a whole video on the subject.
he made a pretty big mistake by judging Robb to be a joung boy way over his head, rushing to battle not knowing what he was doing. And got wrecked by it, only then he went for the political and subterfuge way.
@@warlordofbritannia He stayed at Harrenhal because it was a strategic position that allows him to block the vale and the north armies from approaching KL and the river lands.
Único erro do Tywin foi subestimar o Robb, o resto estava certo. Ficar em Harrenhal era o mais correto pois ele conseguia fechar o caminho do Robb para Porto Real, ao mesmo tempo que se o Renly ou o Stannis resolvessem atacar, ele conseguiria marchar para salvar a capital.
Tywin só sai de Harrenhal quando o Renly já estava morto e Stannis estava cercando Storm'sEnds, que pela história, sempre dura muito tempo. Com Stannis ocupado por meses, talvez um ano, Tywin poderia focar em Robb.
A loucura é que Stannis usa magia, algo que nunca está nos cálculos, e consegue tomar o castelo rapidamente, mas logo que Tywin fica sabendo, marcha rapidamente para Porto Real, sabendo que Stannis atacaria.
Se Edmure n tivesse atacado, os ocidentais teriam passado o rio, e não teriam como voltar a tempo. Então Tywin teve sorte também, mas sua estratégia fazia sentido.
Agora, se ele ao em vez de ficar em Harrenhal, fosse para a capital direto, teria sido um problemão. Deixaria os nortenhos muito perto, podendo até tomar parte das terras da coroa. Conseguiria frear um exercito inimigo, mas o outro viria rapidamente e quebraria a defesa cansada de Porto Real. Além de abrir espaço para alianças, imagina Robb com todo o seu exercito em Harrenhal ou Duskendale e Stannis após derrotar Renly
By staying at Harrenhal's central location means that Tywin can block Robb from King's Landing but is also close enough for him to march on Stannis or Renly if they siege the capital
@@the_archmaesterif he ever left Harrenhal, the North, the Riverlands and the Vale would converge. Tywin has Edmure not sticking to the plan, Lysa going loca, Balon being Balon and a thicc nurse to thank
The only real way they could win would be if a plague broke out on the mainland killing 90% of the population and Greyjoys survive due to their greatest asset (living on a separate island)
or if a long knight come and the oters the wite walker kill everyone in westeros, but the iern islands survive cuz the wite walker can't walk on water (it a little known fact but i hav a theory they can only walk on snow thats why they are call wite walker. notice they r not caled watter walker otherwise they willed simply walk around the Wall. altho i do wonder why they haven't simply walk up the Wall, since it is made of snow, which acording to my theorey they should b able to walk on. maybe they're ded servents cant walk on snow? something to consider. never thogut of that before
Westeros is about 10% the size of the actual habitable world so that island aint nowhere near far enough to not get plague spread, butyeah.
@@EshBBX if they ban ppl from coming in how can the plagg get in?
@pIayingwithmahwii they don't walk up the wall, because they're not immune to gravity. Also I think it's implied that the wall is magical and they can't cross it/ climb it.
Correct. If Balon Greyjoy accepted the Stark alliance, then he's not Balon Greyjoy.
Tyrells attempt to stay out of the fight
Stannis WILL remember that
And he will be happy that they dont go to war against him
@@flavius5722 Stannis? Happy? Next you'll be telling me of how much Tywin Lannister liked to laugh!
Another great video, im glad we have gotten to hear Tom, i hope that doesnt mean the regular guy is going anywhere (sorry cant rember his name)
Who? I don't know who you're talking about.... JKing! Liams not going anywhere, he's already recorded the next video and I'm halfway through editing, now he's moved onto the one after that ! - Thom
Hey Hayden, my name is Liam (the other guy with the more annoying and shouty voice) 😂 yeah I was chuffed to bits when Thom said he wanted to have a go at this one, if only to prove to everyone that he's a real person and not some voice in my head that I talk to 😂 we're baby stepping him into improving his recording set up so he can put his voice to use for more videos (we need to get his reverb/room echo down as you can no doubt hear in this vid) , which means more videos for you guys and I think it'll help us appeal to more people, his calm relaxed tone might be some peoples couple of tea vs my loud obnoxious projecting that I know irritates the crap out of some people 😂 thanks so much for tuning in as always matey! Liam
Dany dies in Meereen at the fighting pits.
Sons of the Harpy sneak up to her and kill her while she is watching the great games. Jorah isn’t there as he was exiled and is in Volantis. Since Tyrion stayed in Westeros, Jorah doesn’t come back to save her as having Tyrion as his prisoner was the catalyst for returning to her.
Balon, king of failed rebellions
Great video as always the Greyjoys would still probably lose or mess it all up
All robb has to do was send someome like Rickard Karstark and Greatjon Umber as they were the most loyal stark houses in the earlier season to balon and threaten balon to help them or else they would kill theon. Maybe them balon would have given them those ships to take lannisport.
Nah bro Balon is just a fucking idiot. He was already planning to attack the North even if it meant Theon’s death.
Threatening should probably be saved for later. The same offer with Karstark and an incentive to give him back his heir during or after the war.
lol that’s stupid. Just point out how dumb Baelon’s plan is since it doesn’t give the iron islands much really and how raiding the westerlands would be more profitable.
Another great video! Loved this one as always!
Aha thanks Mikox ! 😂 - Thom
Brann to Shareen is the best match offer. That way Stannis’s grandchildren still get the crown. It’s not perfect but it’s leagues better than Edmire.
Good luck having baby’s with Bran…
@@TheFandomeClips i seem to have overlooked something in my haste.
@@TheFandomeClips What about the other one, Rickon?
I tend to look at the greyjoys as jumped up wildlings. Raiders but with a liking for saltwater.
love these videos!
You guys should try how Jon could win the game of thrones. His game starting post resurrection so hes really got a mountain to climb.
Win conditions.
Long night ended (the main goal)
King Aemon Targaryen, King of the 8/9 Kingdoms (Dorne is optional, The wildings arent the walls coming down eventually)
Great Video. I'm still waiting for the Littlefinger winning video and Randyll Tarly apology.
Hey Hubert! Randyll Tarly apology will likely be part of the re uploaded commanders vid, you can hear me grovel to the Ran man there 😂 we also have a LF video in the works but I'm not sure when it's due to drop, but don't worry they are in the works! Thanks for watching as always mate! Liam
My favorite culture in Asoif is the iron born. Its nice that you circled back to them
Had to come back to them! Even if it took us a year.... - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips
Funny, a year’s probably as long as the Greyjoys peak would last.
@@TheFandomeClips better late than never. Cool hearing from you
If Westeros completly shatters into 7 independant kingdoms and establishes peace, Dany might view this as a sign that she should move on, as the Targeryens did when Valerya fractured and she might establish her new empire in Essos, she has all the Dothraki, she has conquered and subjugated Mereen and all other slaver cities, she was already on her way to establishing a new empire that could prosper and keep on growing in Essos.
She might lay claim to Dragon stone, but not more, i guess.
no she wouldn't. she would conquer them all regardless.
@@godemperorofmankind3.091 Not in this scenario
In the North : 5 wargs
In Kings Landing Stannis and his Shadow babies
In Dorne the Scorpion Bolts
@@flavius5722 what? only bran's a warg and no evidence he can affect a dragon.
mel said shadow baby was a one and done. he'd never survive doing it again.
everyone can have scorpions. its not a dorne-specific tech.
technically cersei should have had that war won but for no reason, almost none of her scorpions fired. but that is with a few weeks prep. in this scenario she'd invade and no one has that kind of time.
@@godemperorofmankind3.091
In the books all the Starks children are wargs and dragons are with nothing special than other animals
Also Melisandra created two shadow babies
And the scorpions were invented in Dorne ( not by the homless wizard ) imediatly after Aegon invasion , that is why Dorne was never conquerd by the Targherians
@14:37 I mean the Seven Hells would freeze over before Stannis allowed Shireen to be married to Tommen because Stannis knows Tommen is a bastard born of incest. Edmure meanwhile is the trueborn son of Hoster Tully and the (either soon-to-be or actual, depending when we're talking about) Lord of Riverrun, so marrying Shireen to him isn't really that bad of a deal (aside from the fact that Edmure is around 30 whereas Shireen is like 10, but that kind of marriage wasn't uncommon in Medieval times or in the Game of Thrones setting (THANKFULLY, no consummation of the marriage was done for a few years in such cases.)) The only mental roadblock Stannis has to overcome is the fact that Edmure is on Robb's side in declaring independence from King's Landing, which IS a major thing for him to be cool with, but MUCH less so than the ideas of ex. marrying Shireen to Tommen, swearing allegiance to Joffrey, or swearing allegiance to Renly when Renly is younger than Stannis and Stannis has an heir.
Why to Edmure, Rickon and Bran are still alive , despite what most people think the medieval alliances dont consist only I the bigger sons and heirs of one family, especially because most of the time you don't ally with the boy but with his father
dying in the toilet is humilliating, but losing because the Greyjoys is something else
3:36 I think the North could convince Dorne to join them. They hold no loyalty to House Lannister or Baratheon, considering both enemies.
They are very away from one another, of course is plot convince that the Martels appear and do something only after Robb is killed
În the book Doran Martell is a man of scheiming and paciente, so much so that the things that he wants get done naturaly before he even decide to act
The very best scenario for Greyjoys:
1. Be cool and make friends with the North.
2. Take And occupy Lannister lands.
3. Start sowing and mining. Grow their numbers and their resources in order to become a legitimate and feared House.
After this is accomplished in the span of 30 years, then we can talk about the Greyjoys expanding into the Reach. More than likely though this will agitate the North if the War is already won by this point.
The War needs to go on in order for the Greyjoys to take more land.
Another scenario, Greyjoys are a sea-faring people capable of traveling long distances by sea and rivers where there isn’t any enemy activity that could jeopardize their sea operations. After they occupy Lannister lands for 30+ years they’d have the numbers to actually found colonies in Essos and other unexplored continents, imagine the exotic resources and large amounts of wealth they’d accumulate and bring in from these far, distant lands.
They’d be like the Spanish pioneering an entire age of exploration and possibly kicking off the industrialization of Westeros.
with most of the videos, i feel that the usual best thing you could do, no matter what house you are, is stay out of it, and just bend the knee to whoever is the strongest at the time.
if i was balon, i'd stay out of it until i was sure the Lannisters would win, then bend the knee. then when Dany sails over, guess what? i've got a nearly untouched army and armada ready to go for her. I offer my son as her king, and bada bing bada boom, greyjoys are top dog.
When I read the title, i let out a laugh. definitely one of the most unlikely scenarios
While an alliance with Robb was the smart move there’s no way Baylon would ally himself with the son of the guy who helped crush his rebellion. However the Greyjoys might have won if Theon was a little smarter. Theon’s capture of Winterfell was ingenious but trying to keep it with 20 men was idiotic. As his sister told Theon later he should have kidnapped Bran and Rickon, torched Winterfell, and Brought the Stark boys to the Iron Islands as hostages. Then Baylon would have forced Robb to negotiate with him. He could have forced Robb to recognize the iron islands independence and kept some of the northern land the Ironborn had captured. Not quite a complete victory but a good one.
This is a what if scenario,so Baelon said yes
Your plan is too complicated for Baelon 🤯
But by torching Winterfel just lead more to Robb's downfall ,and the Boltons or whoever come after him have no interes in Rickon or Bran's lifes
Putting his grudge aside. Keep in mind that the North was undefended and was easy pickings, whereas the Lannisters still had a sizeable army in the Westerlands that could repel an attack from sea. Also, how could he have known that Robb could get past the Golden Tooth (which is basically the Lannister's very own Bloody Gate)? Yes in hindsight we can see how badly he miscalculated, but that being said if we go into ACOK blind. I don't think any of us would have entertained allying with Robb had we been in Balon's position.
@8:14 I wouldn't make fun of Thom for saying "opportunitist" when the word is "opportunist," except that he always roasts Liam when Liam makes mistakes so eat it Thom!
Yeah going against the Starks was stupid by Balon. Robb had literally the same goal as him, forming a Kingdom independent from the Iron Throne. They could form a Powerful Alliance in the North of Westeros or at least be neutral with each other so they can campaign in the south with safe northern borders. Fighting the Starks was only for pleasing Balons ego.
3:20 the map looks great
To make it even better I think Olena/Mace would try to Mary Margery to Robb, and then Robb should marry Sansa to Theon to further secure the alliance provided he can get her back. Then there’s still Arya, Rickon and to a lesser extent Bran who he can marry for alliances, and he’ll potentially even John if he wants to legitimize him and release him from the nights watch
I haven’t watched the video yet but the only way I see Mace marrying Margaery to Robb in the books is if he’s going to become king of the seven kingdoms, because his great ambition is to have a child on the iron throne. I see the Tyrell pact with Renly remaining, provided they both accept Stannis’ terms of becoming his heir which I’m not sure in itself is that likely.
@@hi-ls6lt true I was more thinking that the goal was to have Margery as a queen which marrying Robb would accomplish plus then she would be queen of 3 of the seven kingdoms with the possibility of a 4th with the vale if Lysa gets her head out of her ass ( a tall order but some lords (bronze Yohn Royce and others) were already pushing to join) and now with a 5th the iron islands as a close ally, and now the westerlands completely surrounded would be relatively easy to take for the combined force of 4 or 5 of the kingdoms.
George needed drama
The Danerys will not be that big of a ptoblem if the kingdoms are separated ( in the book version )
The Dorne will just give Scrpions to anybody else , Tyrion had use Scorpions at the battle of the Blacwater , and the masters in general must know about them ,espicaly now that they appear in House of the Dragon
By the way Dany has 3 dragons but just one rider
Robb, Arya and Bran can all warg , and Danerys got pioson in her drink back in Mareen
Also, Arya can probably murder Daeny any time she wants if we come to that.
You’re underestimating how fucking stupid Balon is.
True. Like most Ironborn he's got more saltwater than brains in his head.
Greyjoy’s else from the iron islands are nothing but wildlings with boats.
I have to disagree with you on the Tyrell situation. The Tyrells dont have the political capital in the Reach to claim independence.
Both the Reach and the Riverlands never had strong Lords Paramount, because both the Tyrells and the Tullys got their power due to the Targs. They were not historically kings… like the Starks, Arryns, Lannisters, etc.
The Reach had for instance the Hightowers, and a lot of strong houses who rivaled the power of the Tyrells. One particular problem the Tyrells had at this time was House Florent. They were a powerful house that claimed descent from the Gardeners, the original rulers of The Reach. Selyse Florent was married to Stannis Baratheon… who as you well know HATES the Tyrells due to the Siege of Storms End during Robert’s Rebellion.
Thus, the Tyrells need an alliance at least with another power. Long term neutrality wont work. If Stannis wins, he will punish them for their prior actions and for not assisting him with getting the throne. Alliance with Stannis is out of the question, punishment will still come due to prior actions.
If the Lannisters are too weak to ally, they have really two options:
1) Join with the Kingdom of the North and Riverlands through marriage to Robb Stark… the heck the Freys
2) Work with Dorne to secure a Targaryen Restoration…
Aside from the Florents, the Tyrells were actually quite secure at the start of the War of Five Kings. Mace Tyrell’s wife was a Hightower, and his mother Olenna was a Redwyne, which secured two of the richest and strongest houses as Tyrell allies.
Nah ,they have all the power to declare independence
Any house who had tried to take the power from the Tyrells had become broke : Peak and Florent
The Tyrells had married Gardeners womens multiple times , and they had ruled Reach as regents
Mace in particular has family ties with all the important houses
Yaaaaaaaaa'ssss its that time of the month 🎉... I will never forgive the RUclips algorithm for recommending this to me 4 days late 😢
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Thanks. I really like you guys; don't even care much about GOT but your videos are a lot of fun, so thank you.
Glad you like them! and thank you for the kind words! - Thom
Cool video!
where is the other guy
Writing & Voicing the next ones 😂 - Thom
@@TheFandomeClips Thom as in Thom Merrilin from weal of time?
Did I miss Dorne being mentioned?
Good scenario though it really comes down to when the Separatist Alliance makes it to Casterly Rock in full strength. While the Ironborn are there, and they will be able to do a lot but I don't see the same gains as when they attacked the North. The Westerlands have a better chance to know about the attack thanks to Faircastle so the diversion attack they did to lower Winterfells defenses won't be the same. Really a lot of raiding of towns where the Westerlands peasants and commoners will be the ones being hurt.
This I feel will be the important bit as basically if the Northern-River forces don't make it before the Battle of Black Water then the marriage of Joffery and Margery will be planned still leaving the Iron Throne the Reach and Crownlands, the Westerland forces Tywin had with him, Dorne if the marriage of Myrcella is still on and I'd see some Stormland since in this Stannis lost some and if I recall in the books some of the houses (or at least what they owned) were then taken by the Iron Throne. No real mention in the show what happened but I do see something like this.
If it does start going in this direction looking at more even sides with now the Reach being the larger force for the North to clash with, though I am guessing the Ironborn will now look to having their raiding down there with their Lords who didn't get much in the Westerlands really pushing for Reach plunder, and with their Westerland holdings can make more constant raids since repairs on ships will be better.
The really turning points will come from one of 2 things how much Dorne will support the Iron Throne and if Lysa Tully does keep the Vale out of the fight, as Littlefinger was controlling/manipulating her and essentially the Reach's foreign policy. If he sees Dorne not supporting the Iron Throne I bet he will then tell her join the Separatist wince they are now down to less then half with the Westerlands & Stormlands being gutted, with the Reach's forces being split between defending the Reach itself. From there it depends on if the other Reach houses specifically House Tarly feel if the Crown of the Iron Throne isn't worth it as in the show he was ready to turn on the Tyrells for power. In exchange for leaving the Reach alone the Tarly's will help the Separatist, and Robb will agree with this though Balon will take issue since he is fighting for his old ways with slaves needed to work fields. A thought over will be done with Theon telling Robb his father will have his Iron Price even if it means war with the North & Riverlands. Robb knows if their Alliance breaks it will make their wins mean nothing as if they get the Reach out the Iron Throne will have nothing. So the Ironborn will get the Arbour and a fair amount of land near it. The Tarlys then claim as Kings of the Reach using a mix of how pretty much all Reach House come from Garth Greenhand and the Separatist Alliance strength.
Dorne then fully leaves as Doran in the show isn't the schemer from the books but a more peaceful man who sees if war isn't needed don't do it, and the Iron Throne will then ask for Myrcella back however the war is done, the seven kingdoms will be separate as with them having lost their most complete armies and the Vale moving in. A surrender is given and many prisoners exchange, and Robb might actually not take Joffery's life since it only would happen if they try to claim the North the wording of his Terms are a bit unclear there. While it is unknown how he will respond to hostages & wards since he might want nothing to do with them after this, Balon will want revenge and make those who made him feel humiliated feel the same even though they are all gone but still. Tywin will have to surrender Fair Castle, and give up lands just like the Tarly deal but will have to give up one more thing one of "Roberts" children, just like Balon had to give up his, and I don't think it will be him looking at the heir as who even knows what will happen in the Stormlands but Myrcella who will be arranged to Theon as a Salt Wife when she is older. I know in this you mentioned Theon and Sansa but Balon still wants to Old Ways as his end goal, so if Theon would have to make Sansa his Rock wife to keep his alliance or have her be a salt wife breaking it, or just leave the North & Riverlands alone and focus on his gains.
I am assuming while this is going on Joffery and Margery didn't have a chance to get married as the War was going on, and now they are out the Reach might very well go into a civil war with the Tarly vs Tyrells. While brought up both sides are done fighting and since the Tyrells just wanted a Royal Marriage Dickon will marry Margery. The Tyrells would then return back to being Stewards and recreating much of how they were before Aegon's Conquest.
One slightly small probleem for the ironborn with the white walkers and there wights those undead are dead they dont breath so they don't have to swim they can walk on the sea bottom Aka pirates the 1 movie style or the the others/whitewalkers do a bit of ice magic and use glasiers
I’m just imagining the walkers using iceberg ship Like the captain Gutt in ice age 4 ( who was ironically voiced by Peter Dinklage)
I could see Dany returning and getting the full support of Dorne, since Doran was already planning to support her. She might get the support of the Reach if she marries Loras or one of the other Tyrell sons in the books, since they might view the dragons and Dorne's support as a one-way ticket to power if they hop on early and have a Tyrell marry her.
Even though Stannis really doesn't want to forgive Robb's rebellion, he might make peace if he becomes aware of the white walker threat, though he would do so only to allow Robb to head north to fight them, Stannis would be too busy with the south to send much help himself.
Either way, whether Stannis made peace or not, Dany would overrun him quickly with her armies and dragons, though Stannis's magic might be an obstacle in that scenario, maybe taking down a dragon or something.
If the Vale hadn't committed their forces to any side, they likely would commit to neutrality as soon as Dany shows up, and then swear fealty to Dany after she defeats Stannis or when she potentially continues north into the Riverlands. The Reach forces could push the Ironborn out of the Westerlands, but they wouldn't be able to stop their coasts from being raided. If Robb stays in the south, he might be able to fight scattered Dornish and Reachmen armies, but he wouldn't be able to fight dragons.
There might be some strategy where Robb and Balon can tag team, hitting and running, wherever the dragons are not, distracting and pulling them to one place while attacking another, but considering how quickly the dragons can move and how slow normal communication can be in relation, they would be walking a very thin line, with every misstep costing thousands of men and potentially dozens of ships. Any strategy would fail though when the North gets invaded by white walkers and Robb is forced for leave or potentially beg for help.
An alliance with Dorne it means marriage eith a Martell , so no space left for the Tyrells
But with the Lannisters death and no more Iron Throne ,Doran dosent need Dany , so no alliance with them either , they actualy send the sand snakes to eliminate her as threat to their independence
Wouldn't Littlefinger Push Lyssia to join the lannisters?
They might run off with the throne.
Sadly, he was driven by revenge and bitterness, and maybe a bit suicidal.
Balon couldve easily accepted Robbs offer.
Robb couldve allowed Balon control of Lannister lands in the Westerlands if Balon joined together with Robb.
All in all good analysis. However I do my diverging takes.
1. Given Lysa's mens rea (god being a law student is destroying my humanity), I think whatever the Vale does is dictated by the political motivations of Littlefinger. Given that Littlefinger's goal seems to be becoming the most powerful person in westeros, I think he is going to make strides in aligning the Vale with the Reach as the most powerful faction in the fall out. Possibly also working with the Greyjoys in the Westerlands alongside of them. Either way, I think whatever the Vale does will be for the aims of making Baelish the most powerful man in westeros or as powerful as he can be. The only difference I think is the scope and scale.
2. I don't think the Tyrells would necessarily secede and become the kings/queens of the reach simply because I think doing so would put too much of a target on them than they are used to and probably want. Instead, I see the Reach taking a more disputed territory approach where they leverage their grain supplies to marry themselves into as many ruling families in Westeros as possible (IE Margery to Bran, Loras to Yara or Shireen, etc.). Not everyone will accept these offers, but winter is coming and the Tyrells in this scenario have all the bargaining power and even the winners in this war of the five kings are in no position to be picky.
3. The Martells are in an interesting place seeing how there are no more vengeance to be had (outside of maybe the mountain and perhaps Stannis if they stretch it). However, if we go with the book version of them where they are also seeking to regain their place in court, then I can see them offering whatever naval forces they have to bring Dany to Westeros in exchange for a marriage pack with Quentin or even Oberyn seeing how he is alive in this chain of events. Maybe they can even throw in hiring the Golden Company to help sweeten the deal.
4. Assuming all of these events occur, then once Dany crosses the narrow sea, the only kingdom she really has to conquer would the be Reach. One she takes highgarden (or in all likelihood the Tyrells would give it to her in exchange for some place at court and/or keeping their stations as wardens) all she would then have to do is cut off any supply chains and only reopen them in exchange for bent knees. Those who don't accept this offer gets visitations from the unsullied, Dothraki, and dragons.
4a. If this occurs, all the Greyjoys have to do, as stated in the video is demonstrate a lack of use for the Iron Islands to Danny or, they could do the Greyjoy equivalent to what the Dornish did during Aegon's conquest but in the Iron Islands. Make it impossible to justify the cost of reconquest
Assuming point 4, Arya would just kill Daeny and put an end to any threat to her family.
@@12gark ah you’re assuming she still becomes a faceless man in this timeline. It’s entirely possible she is returned to winterfell where she is trained to be a lady instead.
@@adamcahoon6362 Arya training to be a lady? She may very well never become a faceless man in this scenario, but a lady?
Not even the idiots writing season 8 tried that route 🤣
@@12gark Oh I didn't say they would succeed. But that would almost certainly be the goal for house stark as it was in the canon story prior to the war of the 5 Kings.
One problem with your tyrel motivation discussion. The Tyrells will not be able to hold on to the reach without an outside force keeping them there. They have a bunch of vassals that have better claims to the rulership of the reach. They didn’t rule the reach before Aegon the conqueror. They need the iron throne and to maintain their position. So I think they would team up with the lannisters against stannis but I think they would drag their feet about pitting their men against the north and co. And Tywin would have nothing that could force them as he would be completely reliant on them.
Thats a great point, I suppose that helps Balon and Rob though as it might cause internal power struggles that The Tyrells are going to have to expend themselves to contain! Great points though Bleach mon!thanks for watching! Liam
Actually, the Tyrells are currently perhaps in the strongest position they ever had, having close alliances with the Hightowers and Redwynes, the two other most powerful houses in the Reach. However, should a coalition of less powerful, but still significant houses ally against them, like the Florents, Tarlys, Merryweathers, Peakes, and most of all the Rowans, they might still lose.
They do have accrued legitimacy on account of having ruled the Reach for the past 3 centuries, though I could see a future schism with the more powerful Reach houses - maybe the Arbor and Oldtown break away, leaving a smaller, but more easily controllable kingdom. There's also the argument that the Reach will stay united out of fear of Ironborn conquest - the Arbor and Oldtown were previously controlled by the Hoares, and with their newfound position in the Westerlands, a divided Reach would be ripe for conquest
Tyrells could Marry Loras to Danny to secure an alliance? many westermen hate the iron born so id assume alot of the lords would turn to the invading danny as the better option. Dorne would ally with Danny as well defiantly a cool match up . I doubt the northern alliance would withstand the Targs
Nah ,they just become all kings ,why to give up the independence ?
If Loras marry Danerys , the Martells are going crazy and bring the scorpions bolts ,and the Kings Landing already have those
Loras dosent want to marry
If Stannis see Dragons flying over he is summoning a Shadow baby ,no matter the cost
If the Starcks are seing Dragons they enter panic mode and bring all the wargs în the North to bring the nuclear lizards down
Lannisport does not have any gold in its mines. Tywin said in the series that those gold mains of theirs have ran out years ago. And if tywin dies, their whole economy dies with it.
In the show thats said. In the book, thats not the case as Robb and his men were robbing the mines around the Westerlands 😅😅 Not actually sure why they decided to take that route in the show tbh 🤷♂️
-Thom
@@TheFandomeClips Thanks for the reply, good to know the book lore as well.
@@johnysnoww3831Even in the show it made no sense the Gold mine would run dry. Gold deposit like that wouldn't go empty that quickly without modern equipment.
@@ucnguyenanh9414 But they have mained the gold over hundreds of years tho ?
@@johnysnoww3831 They can mine it for another hundred year and it won't run out, not with the equipment they still have.
dont forget dorne. at this point oberyon was still in dorne. he would have for sure joined if The north, Stormlands, Riverlands, and the iron islands were ALL fighting the lannisters. One iorn-born ship to the south with a message easy win.
I think Stannis would bend the knee. If this coalition has taken the throne via conquest, he'd accept it. His gripe was the fact the kingdom was his by right of succession. Once the Baratheon/Lannisters no longer have the throne, he'd probably recognise the new regime and head back to Storm's End.
The purpose of the alliance is not to put Starks or Greyjoys on the Iron Throne ,but to split the westeros in six kingdoms ,watch the video
no he wouldn't.
stannis would insist on fighting Robb even if it was hopeless and he couldnt win
Love the animation parts, and
Very succinct but too many wins. I’m gonna need Euron to throw a bit more chaos into the fire; like the moment baylon agrees to ally, he sails to gets Danny, blows his horn and burns it all down… win win win 😅 like a true iron islander.
Fandome, you need to theorise about when, if ever, we will get to read the Winds of Winter and Drean of Spring?
We'll never see the story ended my friend. GRRM is 75. I wish him another 75 years of health, but we all know we'll never see the story end
@@12gark dammit man, why did we all have to get hooked to that lazy fatso's intriguing story. We should have been spending our time reading already finished tales like Elric of Melnibone by Michael Moorcock or the Malazan book series. Brandon Sanderson is prolific as heck as a writer, yet ASOIAF has sucked up all the attention. Ah well, what can we do, eh?
Make a video about how Walder Frey could have won the iron throne for himself!
Pleas continue to make videos like this
Unironically would love to see a Frey video
The Freys should nhave done what they've been doing for thousands of years. stay behind their high walls, then bend the knee and join whoever is the likely strongest.
do this and they could have joined Dany when she sails over, with an intact powerful army and maybe gotten a marriage out of her.
Do a video ranking the best warriors from house targeryn
the best will probally be agmon the dragon knight. whom do u think is the best or the top 3?
@@pIayingwithmahwii Jon snow number 1 Daemon targeryn number 2 and Maegor the cruel number 3
@@pIayingwithmahwii the thing is aemon the dragon knight doesn’t have a lot of feats in the books
@@Alex-bz8lj ok ur right we dont know that much about the dragon knigt. also is jon snow really That skilled of a warrior that he's better than all of the other targareon's?? obviously we kno him the most by far but still... oh then i wonder, hyperthetially, do u think jon snow could have beaten robert baratheon on the trident if he were magically replaced of rhaegar that day?
also what about aemon One-Eye as far as ur overall targareon warrior rankings. oh and i know he doesnt really count but where would u put daemon black fire? what about bitter steel and blood raven? in terms of being warriors for all those 3 guys how good do u think they was in terms of all the targereans?
@@pIayingwithmahwii aemon is good but we haven’t seen him fight outside of training
I always thought Robb needed to somehow marry Margery, even if thats not something he could’ve orchestrated at any point really. But in a timeline where he won he should have done that
problem is Tyrells have no reason to agree to that
@@godemperorofmankind3.091 they would after renly's death while robb was still winning. issue is the whole frey thing and the matter of reaching them
I wouldn't be making deals with people who killed my two sons either.
Who wins the war if all the factions follow Fandomes, how to win the war advice?
For example this scenario is non starter if Robb doesn't send Theon.
Balon Greyjoy (and the Greyjoys in general) are the avatar of dumb on the show. “If Balon Greyjoy were smart” makes no sense, as then he’d not be Balon Greyjoy.
Here's how the Iron Islands can win
First Phase
1) Ally with the North to gain access to wood for building more warships.
2) Seize Fair Isle to use as a forward base.
3) Seize holdings along the coast such as Banefort, Crag, Kayce and Feastfires to divert troops to those areas
4) Destroy the ships at Lannisport and sack the city while the army is away.
Second Phase (After the Tyrells form their alliance with the Lannisters.)
1) Wait for the Redwyne fleet and Tyrell host to depart to King's Landing.
2) Sweep in and destroy the shield island fleet and seize the Shield Islands to secure the Mander.
3) Capture the Arbor to use as a forward base to attack Oldtown.
4) Inform Stannis through Robb of the coming Redwyne fleet resulting in a naval clash between the Iron Fleet's biggest rivals. One will be destroyed and the other will be too weak to challenge them.
5) Sail Up the Mander and capture Highgarden. Proceed to sack every castle along the rivers, Goldengrove, Cider Hall, Longtable, Ashford, Bitterbridge , Tumbleton.
6) Destroy the Hightower fleet and raze Oldtown.
7) Sack the castles along the Coast, Old Oak, Blackcrown, Three Towers, Sunflower Hall.
8) Set a trap for the returning Redwyne Fleet, using fireships of captured vessels.
9) Return to The Iron Islands or stay and secure the captured islands once winter arrives.
The first 4 were good ,exept switch 3 with 4
The second 4 are unrealistic :
1) At this point the Reach will know that the Ironborn were enemies ( if they still enter the war ) so they will most probably sent the fleet to the Westerlands
2) The shield islands will expect a attack
3) The Arbor too
4) Stannis fleet will be already destroyed at the Blacwater by wildfire
5) Higarden at this time is too strong to be captured by storming ( book version) , and the other castles are far inland , the Greyjoys lack cavalry and siege equipment
6) If the whole gole is to return home with gold ,the only think they will really have is hyper inflation
But they don't have the man power to do all of these
@@flavius5722 Not necessarily, understand that this isn't chronologically set in stone but to give a general idea of what can be accomplished.
1) With a Lannister/Tyrell Alliance they would have to choose between going to deal with Stannis and the Royal Fleet or going against the Ironborn. Since King's Landing is in the more immediate danger I'm inclinded to believe that they will go for the latter. Paxtor will have taken the bulk of the reach's navy to fight Stannis
2 & 3) Even if the Shield Islands and the Arbor know of their coming, they won't know when. nor would it matter since they will be badly outnumbered and outmatched
4) Not if he is informed ahead of time Timing is the key to the whole campaign. So, it is important to ensure that Paxtor Redwyne's fleet is well on its way to deal with Stannis before descending on the Reach. As well as making sure Stannis is aware ahead of time of their approach. With this knowledge Stannis might postpone his attack on King's Landing rather than risk being caught in the rear during the attack.
5) Highgarden is a string castle but it's not Casterly Rock or Storm's End. The other Castles I mentioned are near a major river which can easily be accessed by Ironborn Longships. Even without the castles there are plenty of other places to raid. Farms, hamlets, villages, towns, weaker castles. Places that are not as well guarded. Also, the farms that can supply the Ironborn for winter.
6) Do you think the Ironborn would care about that?
They will with the aid of the north and the Riverlands. Plus the wood provided by the North will allow for more Iron Fleet ships to be built But don't have to do all of these things. The main focus is eliminating all rival naval elements and securing the Arbor, The Shield Islands and Fair Isle. Far richer gains that the pitiful kingdom they carved up in the North.
@@George-Hawthorne Good points but the key is the timeline
1) In the books the redwyne fleet had set sail during the purple wedding ( the reason may be that Paxter twins were prisoners at KL , so based on the timeline ,the fleet will be there at the time when Ironborn arrive , already after the battle of the Blacwater
2) Even if the shield islands can't fight them at sea they will be prepared for a siege
3) I know that the show had ruined Higarden , and în the books it dosent have the piar campaign of Storm's End or the Rock (Dayne Johnson) but is still în top 4 ,on a hill surrounded by 3 walls each taller than the other , eith a labirint betwen 1 and 2 , and a giant Garden to provide food for the defenders
And like I said the Ironborn lack the siege equipment and manpower
4) It will be much more important to concentrate on the Westerlands not to split forces thin against the two most populated regions
5) But I think their biggest chanches is propagandistic , if they and Robb make the idea of separatism more popular and fisebale, they already won , because the Lannisters may find themselves alone
@@flavius5722 1) My mistake, since that is the case then remain in the westerlands until the redwyne fleet does depart to partake in the siege of Dragonstone, since regardless the Redwyne fleet will have to do that, though this time they would sent as many ships to take part due to the ironborn. While they wait, they can build more ships and expand the Iron Fleet.
2 & 4) The shield islands may be ready for a siege but it doesn't seem like their castles are particularly strong if Harras Harlaw has proven anything. But taking them helps the Starks to. Securing the shield islands opens the mander to raiding and allows them to attack supply trains heading for King's Landing. The shields also give the Ironborn a staging ground to set a trap for the remaining Redwyne Fleet that will likely come to retake the Isles. Remember it was Stannis that defeated the Iron Fleet, not Paxter Redwyne so my money will go to Victarion this time around.
3) If Highgarden is too strong it doesn't matter since taking it is not essential, like I said the Reach has plenty of other targets. The Starks can ravage the Westerlands while the Ironborn do the same to the Reach.
@@George-Hawthorne If we assume that the timeline continue as usual ( wich is kind of dumb because the Iron -North alliance was supposed to change the course of the war ,not to keep it as it was or only change the outcome) Tywin will be hand and Mace master of ships , with the Ironborn declaring enemies from the begining so I am sure they will prioritize the fight against the Ironborn, Stannis had already abandone the island letting no war ships behind
It was Cersei who prioritized Dragonstone over the Reach ,Tywin and Mace are more probably to take the initiative and attack the Ironborn back
If you assume that Cersei will still get in to power, fine but that means Robb will still die at the Red Wedding wich will let the Ironborn alone
Harras Harlaw didn't take the castles he won a trial by combat , if the Shields are prepared for siege , they probably will refuse the showdown ,or one of them will agree but the rest will refuse
Love the clip of haku In beginning
Tbh, if Stannis were one for making political plays (he's not, but I digress) the move here for him would be to try to pull the unthinkable and ally the Tyrells after taking King's Landing.
Since he's essentially installing his own religious leader in the form of Melisandre, it should be VERY easy to get his marriage to Selyse annulled (failure to bear a son after however long coupled with loads of stillborns and a healthy dose of medieval sexism) which solves half the trouble with the Tyrells on its own, by virtue of disconnecting him from a Reach rival.
Then he needs a new wife, and as such a new Queen, and we all know what the Tyrell priority is. Stannis is militarily a genius but lacks politically and struggles to make people like him. Margaery is politically genius and managed to make a crowd like freaking Joffrey. Its advantageous.
There is the issue of Stannis having... fun times... with Melisandre (Jon explicity says in the books that its obvious she's his "real Queen") but conveniently for this situation, I don't know how much Margaery would really care... especially the show version. She was very much chill with Renly sleeping with her brother (or making a threesome) so as long as the crown is still on her head and she's got some clout I don't think creating infatuation is on her priority list.
This alliance gives Stannis the Reach, would boasts the largest army in Westeros and a huge fleet, and crucially has both the wealth and food to sustain his new capital (while also controlling other key exports such as academics and wine). It's about the only region he could pick up that, combined with his own holdings in the Crownlands and Stormlands, gives him a semi-viable position for pulling anyone else back into line and cobbling back together some shadow of the old Seven Kingdoms.
Ok, seriously. This is the fourth video I’ve watched on your channel. And did you guys just steal all my old posts off the ASOIAF message board from like a decade ago?
Realistically Robb should have worded his letter better as you can't 'offer' things to a greyjoy, the Greyjoys already proved they can take Lannisport easily on their own, as they did so under Baelon once, RObb needs to offer aid in something neither of them could have taken on their own, which is Casterly Rock, but even then, the Greyjoys don't do well with alliances.The last time they did one in the dance of the dragons, I believe that was the one time they did since being broken into subservience, they literally kept on raiding the kingdoms after the war had ended, which is bad for Robb if he wants to rule his fiefdom of the North and Riverlands in peace, as the Greyjoys being 'allied' would keep provoking the other kingdoms to military action, either forcing Robb to send troops to bolster the Iron Islands, or more likely, fight in the riverlands again as the other kingdoms would end up attacking him directly to rob the Iron Islands of supporting military.
The Vale won't aid the North until Baelish orders Lisa to do so, they're nobility are stringent and hamstrung by her leading them, so no one would march without Her(Baelish's) order to do so, which if they did, wouldn't be to aid the North, as Baelish doesn't want Robb to get too powerful to hamper his plans to rule the ashes of the great houses.
For Conquering the Westerlands, that doesn't gain Robb another kingdom to his realm, as he's the invader still, no one is going to willingly supply his men there with food, shelter or coin unless they're at swordpoint, which on top of having to have men patrol the riverlands already is just draining his manpower more than needs be when he has Tywin to contend with, not to mention the armies of the Reach, and Stormlands are not on his side, and have a size he can't dismiss.
The Tyrells would likely still go with the Lannister alliance, as they have more to offer, if the Lannister's win, Margery is queen of all 7 kingdoms from the red keep, instead of 2 in the North, especially given they're in a weaker state and Tywin would have to make more concessions for the Tyrell armies to his banner, not to mention Robb wouldn't accept the marriage offer as he's already betrothed and stupidly thought no one knew about him cheating on his fiancee. Also Robb isn't in power because he's generally a nice guy, he's in power because he took it by force, same as stannis, he seems more agreeable and romantic a partner, but cheating on your first marriage before you even meet the wife is really shooting his reputation in the arm, while Joffrey's reputation somehow wasn't confirmed until after the tyrells met with Sansa, but they planned to get rid of that little shit anyway, so it doesn't change much of anything on that front.
Catelyn, being five types of short bus special of a character, would still free Jaime though, she was so desperate and thought only she could do things, as evidence with, well everything she's done, from selling her eldest son to be Married for a bridge, kidnapping Tyrion, (which I still blame all the war and death on her for) and freeing Jaime, it's just in her nature to do so.
The other big issue, besides how Baleon would absolutely have fucked it all up by being himself, is Euron taking over and just fucking off with the fleet to try and woo Danny in essos, because short of VIctarion remembering his character traits of "wanting to cut euron's head off first time he sees him" and having the right to do so since not only has he returned after being banished, he admitted he killed Balon to seize power, BEFORE he got power, and the other Greyjoy captains still respect him more than Asha as it was Euron's plan that got them to take Lannisport in their last rebellion so again, short of Victarion doing what he should have, Euron will still take the throne and the fleet away from Robb's side
I'm not sure why all 7 kingdoms wouldn't gather enough money together to pay the faceless men to kill Dany.
Robb would support Stanis so he could follow his fathers wishes
Westlands did not perform the King of the Isles and the Rivers under House Hoare. The Riverlands and the Iron Island when one country. I doubt the Westlands would fall as quickly.
Step 1 kill balon
Step 2 Marry yara to robb before anything happens in the riverlands
Step3 destroy lannisport
Step4 hope caster red wine doesn’t catch the greyjoys
pointless. since once dany comes over, she'll destroy them with ease.
Balon was so damn arrogant that he cost himself the starks the whole damn realm gravely
I could imagine Asher forcefully marrying Jamie and reluctantly having kids with him to secure the Westerlands like how Tyrian marrying Sansa would secure the North for the Lannister's
What if Oberyn won?
In thos scenario i think the daughter of cersei would survive cause shes not cersei, shes young and given a few years to grow up could be marriage eligibile
Wasn’t myrcella already in Dorne at the time, Engaged to Trystane Martell
had theon just taken bran and rikon and fled winterfell, in and out in an hour. he could have sent them back to his father, giving the leverage with the starks and lanisters, being in possetion of 2 stark sons.
What levreage to the Lannisters Rickon and Bran have ?
And if they help to beat Robb , do you think Roose will bent the knee?
@flavius5722 after Rob is killed, tywin would both need bran and rickon dead. So the greyjoys can ask for something in exchange for killing them.
Maybe for their independence be recognised or half the North?
@@johnmitchell4043 For Robb to be death, you need the Boltons , so you cant negociate any land în the North
Independence of the Iron islands ??
Baelon had never wanted the independence , he is a loyal dog of the Iron Throne
Why would someone who want independence will waste his little resources in attacking the only other side that want independence until they both had reach a point when they have no power to defend themself from the Throne that they want independence from ?
If Baelon had ever wanted independence he could at least stay neutral and letting the others fight so they left him alone
No my friend Baelon ActionScript show that he want to crush any chanche of the ironborn to independence
@@johnmitchell4043 For Robb to die you need the Boltons, so no North land given
And what stop Tywin from invading the Iron Islands and kill all of them
Baelon has wasted his resources fighting the only othe faction that want independence
@@flavius5722 well tywin would need those two stark boys dead so he'd have to hear the greyjoys out. as long as rob hier is alive the war continues.
Is it reasonable to assume that the reason Balon decided to go to war with Robb rather than making common cause with him was because he didn’t think Robb could be so successful? Sure, the Westerlands was a much richer target and with the North and Riverland alliance's help, it could have been his. But at the start of ACOK Robb hadn't yet invaded the Westerlands, and there was no way anyone could have predicted he could. While Robb had won an impressive victory at Riverrun and dealt the Lannisters a crushing blow, the Lannisters were still going strong and had enough forces at home to repel an invasion from sea. Stafford Lannister was already mustering thousands of new recruits at Oxcross, meanwhile both Lannisport and Casterly Rock were heavily defended with some of the best armed and trained troops that money can buy. Any attack by the Ironborn would require Robb to be in the Westerlands to help them divide their strength. And despite having beginner’s luck, I don’t think Balon could have ever imagined that a teenage king with little experience in war could have done the impossible by slipping past the Golden Tooth and raising havoc for the Lannisters on their home turf.
Sure the North was a less juicy land to plunder. But it was undefended, and there was less risk of retaliation in making enterprise in the North than in the Westerlands. I think Balon despite his lack of foresight, learned his lesson from the Greyjoy Rebellion and knew better to make an enemy out of Tywin Lannister. We know that Tywin rebuilt the fleet at Lannisport after Balon’s last rebellion, and as far as he knew at the time, the royal fleet was still very strong and in Tywin’s pocket (I don't think he knew Stannis had taken the royal navy with him to Dragonstone). And knowing Tywin's reputation for ruthlessness. Even if the Ironborn managed to plunder Casterly Rock and Lannisport by allying themselves with Robb. If Robb ends up on the back foot like he does later on in the books. Once Robb has been dealt with, Tywin would focus all his energy on bringing down his wrath on the Iron Islands, and he would have no doubt have finished the job Robert started. Robb on the other hand had no fleet either in the Riverlands or the North to invade the Iron Islands. So even if the invasion failed, there would be no chance of retaliation. Balon may not have been the best strategist in Westeros, but he wasn’t the worst.
The Greyjoys wouldn’t need Robb’s help to wreak havoc in the west. Stafford Lannister’s army was made up of green boys and a handful of veterans they survived the battle of Riverrun. Besides that the only major force is Forley Prestor’s 4k garrison at the Tooth. Lannisport has its city watch and the Tock has a garrison, but not enough to challenge a full Ironborn host.
Why would Balon need Robb to divide the attention of the Westerlands forces? Robb didn’t need anybody to do that for him while he pillaged the region, and he has a much smaller his with him than what the Greyjoys could rally.
Why would the Greyjoy rebellion teach Balon not to make an enemy of Tywin? He made Tywin look weak when he burned the Lannister fleet. It was Robert and the collective might of Westeros that crushed the rebellion. Tywin wasn’t involved in the retaliation. And Stannis has already declared to the whole realm he was king, and Balon would know that Stannis had complete command over the Royal Fleet. Even if Tywin did have the fleet, it would take months to circle Westeros, and they would be without Stannis’ ’ tactical acumen that defeated the Iron Fleet in the first place.
As for invading the North. It definitely wasn’t undefended. Rodrick Cassel commanded a thousands strong host to retake Winterfell after Theon took it.
@@MorallyDubiousFrog This entire video makes a lot of correct assumptions based on foreknowledge. Yes, Balon would have likely conquered most of, if not the entirety of the Westerlands if he had allied himself with Robb. We know this with the benefit of hindsight. But what if we didn't have hindsight? If we go into the start of ACOK blind, there is no way anybody could have determined the outcome of the War of Five Kings.
If we look at the political map at the beginning of the second book. Robb had just won a brilliant victory at Riverrun and was on a high. But while he had won a battle against Jaime's contingent of the Lannister host, Tywin was still camped out at Harrenhal with the main Westerland army. Meanwhile in King's Landing, Joffrey has been crowned King of the Seven Kingdoms. And while Renly and Stannis had both declared themselves kings, at this point in time nobody could have known where the Reach's allegiances laid, and if either of the Baratheon brothers were in a position to properly challenge their 'nephew' for the throne.
For all Balon knew, anything was possible at this point in time. For example, if he made common cause with Robb and committed the Ironborn to attack the Westerlands. By the time he had taken Lannisport, Tywin could have already marched out of Harrenhal and crushed Robb's army, which would have resulted in Robb being killed or forced to submit. Heck, once word gets to Tywin that the Ironborn have invaded, he might have withdrew back to the Westerlands to deal with them and left a larger garrison in and around the Golden Tooth, thus making it even harder for Robb to invade the Westerlands from the east. This would have made his alliance with Robb completely useless because Robb can't help the Ironborn if he cannot even get into the Westerlands.
As long as Tywin is able to march his army back to his own lands, which was still a huge possibility, then this would have doomed their invasion. Because unlike Robb, the Ironborn are mostly strong at sea but they didn't have a large cavalry force to reeve further inland. Robb was able to cause so much havoc because the army he brought were mostly a cavalry force. And once Tywin has expelled the Ironborn from the Westerlands, you can bet he would build a navy to invade the Iron Islands and that would have been game over for the Greyjoys. And if you think he can't. Don't forget that is what his ancestor Johanna Lannister did, when she built a navy to invade the Iron Islands in retaliation for Dalton Greyjoy's pillaging of the Westerlands 150 years prior.
@@barbiquearea Tywin was on the other side of the Riverlands, cut off from the west. And if he does manage to return Balon and his men can hop back on their ships.
You arguing hypotheticals about Tywin suddenly crushing Robb and returning West mean nothing. I could just as easily say that Robb could’ve crushed Tywin and besieged King’s Landing. Or he could have the Northern lords mustering a new hosts at Winterfell that could crush an Ironborn invasion. And the Ironborn lack of cavalry would be an even larger disadvantage in the expansive North compared to the rocky foothills of the Westerlands.
As I already said, Robb doesn’t need to help them and they wouldn’t want Greenlander aid anyway. The garrisons left can’t openly challenge an Ironborn invasion and Stafford’s host is not large enough and is full of green boys and the dregs of Lannisport.
Johanna Lannister didn’t build her own fleet, she allied with the navy of the Reach to launch her counter invasion. And she did so after the Ironborn had thoroughly bled themselves in civil war after Dalton’s death. And the current Reach is allied to Renly, since he would absolutely announce his marriage to Margeary alongside his crowning.
@@MorallyDubiousFrog Yes I am arguing hypotheticals because these are all likely outcomes that Balon had to consider when deciding which allies and enemies he needs to make that would provide the Iron Islands with the most benefit. At this point in the war, the North had committed most of its fighting force to the war in the Riverlands. The Northerners didn't have that many troops left over to defend the homeland. Not to mention the western side of the North lacked coastal defenses and didn't even have a navy, plus they were not expecting an attack from the Iron Islands whereas the Westerlands having already experienced Ironborn raids in the past were more on their guard, and the fleet at Lannisport could fight them at sea. So while both sides had troop shortages at home, the North wasn't expecting an attack. Balon even pointed out to Theon that the North being distracted would be a great benefit to their invasion plans. Plus they had no navy to speak of that could fight the Ironborn ships, yet alone retaliate by invading the Iron Islands.
Also Tywin returning to the Westerlands to repel an Ironborn invasion was a very likely possibility, even more so than Robb returning to defend the North. Balon had no guarantee that Robb was going to tie the Lannister host up in the Riverlands or prevent them from slipping back into their lands. Not only could he not have predicted Robb bypassing the Golden Tooth, the Iron Fleet had no way to take the Golden Tooth by sea to block off the Lannister's return. And this was another factor for why invading the North was an easier and less risky prospect because at least with the North, the Ironborn had a way to prevent the Northerners from returning to defend their homes. Unlike the Golden Tooth, the Ironborn were able to take Moat Cailin, and in doing so they managed to cut off Robb's only way back home, thus giving them complete free reign in the North, and only having to deal with some token forces left behind.
Basically, while the Westerlands presented greater risk for greater reward, the Ironborn had less to fear by invading the North than they would by invading the Westerlands, because while the North can drive them out. They have absolutely no way of getting to the Iron Islands like the Westerlands, as they were closer and had an actual navy. That is why I think despite how things turned out, Balon was wise not to gamble with attacking the Westerlands.
In regards to the Tyrells, they were still a wild card. It was only at the end of AGOT that Renly fled King's Landing and started rallying the Reachlords to his side. It was only around the middle of ACOK that Renly's marriage to Margery and his intent to usurp the Iron Throne became common knowledge. At that point in time it was still hard to tell where the Tyrell's loyalties lie. Even Cat hadn't gotten in on all the facts until she arrived at Renly's camp to met with him and Stannis for a potential alliance. For all Balon knew, the Reach could have still been loyal to Joffrey and by extension Tywin, which means he could have gotten help from the Redwyne fleet.
@@barbiquearea Both the North and West had committed most of their fighting forces to the Riverlands. But Robb still had plenty of men he could call upon in the North, he only brought 18k south because he was rushing to save his father.
Meanwhile, the Westerlands have lost a major portion of their manpower and have had to scrape out the dregs of Lannisport to try and replace it, which is what they have Stafford doing.
The Ironborn have historically and mincemeat of the Lannister navy twice while they were at harbor. There’s nothing suggesting they couldn’t do so again, especially with the Westerlands being primarily concerned with the Northmen. They wouldn’t be expecting another Ironborn attack.
The Ironborn only faced token garrisons in the North because the region is vast and it takes time to muster, but even still Rodrick Cassel rallied thousands to retake Winterfell, and could’ve continued campaigning if he hadn’t been ambushed by Boltons.
And as I already said, they don’t need to take the Golden Tooth. Tywin is already blocked by Riverrun. And even if he does make it back west they can retreat to their ships.
Renly openly declared himself king, and would’ve obviously announced his queen Margeary as well.
There’s also the fact that Balon’s invasion of the North had nothing to do with tactical risk or the level of reward offered, it was purely out of spite against the Starks. Asha herself points out during the Kingsmoot that the invasion was basically a waste of time.
If Robb Stark was smart, he would signed an allaince with the victor of the Stannis/Renly showdown at Storm's End (later confirmed to be Stannis). Robb's decision to delcare himself 'King of the North and the Riverlands' was an idiotic strategic move as it meant he could not ally with any of the powers within the Seven Kingdoms and the southern part of the realm (the Riverlands) was completely indefensible with few natural barriers.
Just coz people like the Starks, this move is overlooked and it's probably more damaging to the Stark cause than Robb's marriage to Jane Westerling/Talisa.
It can be seen this way ,but also if you do the math , after the battle of the camps , Robb had 33k men vs Tywin 20k at Harennhal, instead of losing his time in the Westerlands he could had just go Harennhal, crushed Tywin with his superior numbers, more experience army ,and advantege of own terrain
So basicaly Tywin and Kevan would had been death before any Greyjoy invasion or Tyrell -Lannister alliance
Let’s be honest Euron Grayjoy is their best bet beyound signing that independence paper in alliegence with the starks.
Speaking of the tyrells i think they could marry loras to dany. Like when dany lands on dragonstone or lands whereever in westeros, the tyrells would find out. So we have a dragon queen who is single and will require someone to continue her family line, send loras. Granted it might be weird terms of the alliance but still i could see olyenna going for it. And if she goes for it the tyrells go for it.
Maybe in the show , but in the books , Ollena dosen't rule the house , Mace cares about his opinion but he makes his own decisions and very good ones
@@flavius5722 yeah that's fair, the show kinda does make alot of people useless for no reason.
Balon must be the stupidest character in the tv show
Why Edmure and Shireen? Why not Bran or Rickon?
Great idea! I thought Edmure because it at least marries the middle ground between the North & South in a sense. - Thom
I might be one of the few whose favorite house is the greyjoys. I always loved pirates and vikings so the iron islands fits.