How Stannis Baratheon Could Have Won the Game of Thrones
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- Опубликовано: 20 май 2024
- We delve into the ultimate strategy guide for how Stannis Baratheon could have won the Game of Thrones, focusing on the crucial task of uniting the Baratheons with the Starks. Liam takes us through the important rules and restrictions that govern these two houses, and provides in-depth analysis on their strengths and weaknesses. From politically astute and ambitious Renly to uncompromising and battle-experienced Stannis.
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#gameofthrones #stannisthemannis
• How Robb & House Stark...
00:00 Intro
00:30 Restrictions
01:00 Baratheon Goals
02:25 Step 1 - Stop The Childish bickering with Renly
06:48 Step 2 - Ally with Rob Stark
10:08 Step 3 - Deal with the Tyrells
20:37 Some Tidbits
23:50 Step 4 - The Faith & Melisandre
25:46 Step 5 - Dorne
27:31 Step 6 - The Greyjoys
29:54 Step 7 - Daenerys Targaryen
36:13 Step 8 - The Long Night
38:09 More Tidbits
For longer form content check out the Main Channel - / @thefandome
And for more of Liams work check out his fantastic Audio Book the Shifterverse here - / @shifterverse 
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I think you are mispronouncing “How Game of Thrones should have ended”.
😂 brilliant! I totally agree, at least with Book Stannis anyway
@@shifterverse who is an idiot
hell nah man i aint letting my man tyrion die. he has had enough!
Unfortunately we cannot give more than one heart like king joe, though we'd like to symbolically give you 1000 of them for the accuracy of your statement!
@@shifterverse fax, he’s The King Who Cared
If Robb and Stannis had a conversation they definitely could've come to a mutually beneficial agreement
“Bend the knee.”
“Can I get Joffrey’s head on a pike?”
“If you bend the knee.”
“Very well…Your Grace.”
If it had happened before the Greatjon had declared Robb the King in the North, Robb would have probably been among Stannis' most loyal and powerful supporters. Hell, Robb might have been able to convince Renly.
If the Convo happened after northern independence got rolling, the Northern Lords would have taken a lot more convincing, but Robb and Catelyn could have done it. Had Stannis' alliance with Robb been common knowledge, I think that would even have prevented the Red Wedding. Lord Frey wouldn't want to draw the ire of one of the greatest living generals, with the best claim on the Iron Throne, who also had some of the best pirates and smugglers in the world on his side.
That’s literally what Renly and Robb did, before Renly was killed. He had the right approach but was removed by circumstances. Some things did work out for Stannis
No they couldn't. Robb can't back out of his independence claim without pissing off his bannermen (in the books, they didn't even know about the twincest until after Eddard already died, so his choice was either fall in or strike out on their own), and Stannis needs the full realm intact for the coming winter. The only chance Stannis has of getting the Northern support is if Ned wasn't an idiot and left for Dragon stone with his daughters, or if Davos finds Rickon in time.
@@MrKILLINOOBZ
I’m not sure if that first part is actually that true, that Robb wouldn’t be able to bend the knee without losing his bannermen. Given the level of devotion he inspired, I think it far more likely that most of his followers would (albeit reluctantly) keep the peace and submit as well.
Stannis really isn't the "charisma vacuum" he's made out to be. He's only unpopular with the ruling class of Westeros. Throughout the story his soldiers are incredibly loyal to him, probably thanks to him sharing difficulties with them (like eating the same rations) and how he promotes more of a meritocracy than others.
Thats a fair point to be honest. The men that do follow him seem to do so unwaveringly. When it comes to the game though you need to be able to charm the ruling class and in that sense we'd still argue he's a charisma vacuum
yes Stannis is unpopular with everyone. his soldiers are loyal but thats solely because hes their liege lord and soldiers in Westeros fight for their liege lord regardless of their own desires or opinions.
people fought and died for the Lannisters because they were the liege lords of the West after all. same for freys. same for boltons.
stannis doesnt promote meritocracy lmao. he never once said hes the best option as king. only that hes the "heir", whatever that means.
George R.R. Martin unfortunately failed at portraying Stannis unpopular nature. He is strong, a competent commander, brave, loyal, educated, somewhat witty and has integrity. Someone like him should inspire greater loyalty, especially with people who are honor driven.
@@MrBell-iq3sm i think it makes sense that a medieval society would think that.
stannis is a balding old man, who is renowned as boring, stubborn and cold,
Renly is warm, charming, popular and loud. he's also young and handsome.
@@godemperorofmankind3.091 I think those qualities are more of a superficial nature and pale in comparison to the things I listed. His role during Roberts Rebellion and the War against the Greyjoys alone outweighs them. Not to mention that he is the older brother. If Renly was of a different family it would be one thing, but he is by every law and tradition not in line. If he is made king it establishes a horrible president leading to many rebellions. In history rulers, who were stepped over in such a matter like King John of England made large parts of the nobility their enemies first.
If Renly had only accepted that Stannis is Robert’s true heir as the (next) eldest son, would’ve been much better for him and Margaery
And Loras!
😂 most definitely for Loras
“I’ll go the grave thinking of Renly’s peach.”
-Loras in this timeline, prob.
absurd. he would be dead. Renly had this war won and doing this would just piss off the Tyrells needlessly and lose what was already a landslide win
@@warlordofbritannia One of the funniest things I've ever read, I haven't fully read the books but seeing Stannis being like "I'll never get Renly's peach out of my head" is just so incredibly funny to me and so out of nowhere, idk why 😂😂😂
As a diehard Baratheon fan, I do wish that step one was as easy as it seems. It’s actually the most antithetical to that house. While Baratheon‘s are almost impossible to defeat in battle against their foes, they are the Kings of Self-Sabotage. Stronger than steel but slaves to their own vices, convictions and egos. So relatable
Very true Simone, utter conviction to ones ideals is always a double edge sword! Thanks for watching! Liam
Right - the Baratheon's would have to be different characters, thus making it a different story.
The Great Stag locks horns with the young stag to show dominance and rule as king of the forest. This is poetic.
Ours is the fury. Fury means losing control.
Brilliantly put. Deep down, the brothers are so similar, despite their visible differences. Their stubbornness is their tragedy as well. They're the type of characters doomed from the start, due to their own personality. In the end all of their good qualities are rendered pointless,bcs of that one fatal flaw.
Stannis is actually the ONLY leader in Westeros with an easy answer to Dany, up until a certain point. If he and Renly bury the hatchet, then Melisandre doesn't waste her shadow demon on him, keeping it in Stannis' arsenal to use against Dany later. We don't know its range, but he can still use it after she arrives on Dragonstone. Dany has no counter to it at all, unless she allies herself with the other red priests, and has one with her (but even then, it's no guarantee).
Very true. The only issue is have with it is we don't know how Mels magic works, it could have required a specific day and time for all we know, stars aligned and all that jazz 😂 but its a good point and definitely a game winning move if she can pull it off! Liam
I would argue that Dany might have one counter to the shadow baby demon, her dragons. Even if they're still at their baby stages we can see that they have some way of sensing magic and protected her with dragon fire in the house of the undying, in the show by burning the warlocks who had Dany tied up and in the books by seeing through the illusions and burning the whole house to the ground. Dany also has a red priestess with her that gives her cryptic advice sometimes in the books and while I'm not sure about her power level in comparison to Milesandre she may still have some way of protecting or at least warning Dany.
@@TheFandomeClipsthe way she got the demon baby, "and all that jizz" would be much more fitting
It actually wouldn’t matter if Daenerys had other red priestesses allied with herself as Mel’s powers come from her study in Asshai, which is not common among other red priestesses
My only vice with this is that if, at some point during this timeline Mel's faith gets shaken, then she could see dany as the prophecised azor ahai, especially when she witnesses the dragons and magics surrounding her
In the books, the Dornish had scorpions as far back as the conqueror. I'm sure Stannis could figure out how to get his hands on a few, if not ship mounted.
Aye he could hire the best minds from the Citidel to come up with some anti dragon weaponry for sure! Thanks for sharing your insights! Liam
hell, in the books they *do* have ship mounted scorpions. in the books however they are not strong enough to kill dragons except if they hit the eyes.
They only reason why they successfully killed meraxes is because it hit her eye. If it was another body part then it would’ve bounced off like bullets on Superman
@@MFenix206 yeah, a thousand ships armed with scorpions didn’t do much to hinder Vhagar.
Sometimes the arrows get stuck in the scales also but doesnt cause much damage
The Tyrells aren't dumb though, for them to side with the Lannisters whilst facing a united Stark and Baratheon force seems extremely unlikely. They're matriarchal stewards who rely more on economics, diplomacy, and intrigue to advance the family than military might, even though they have the largest military in Westeros. I think it's way more in character for them to accept the fact that Renly is (at least temporarily) no longer king. They know Stannis isn't the kind to remarry and that his wife is in her 40s and infertile, meaning he will never have an heir save Renly, meaning they can wait a bit and assassinate Stannis, or worst case scenario wait until he dies of old age and an older Margaery and Renly or their kids will rule. This also fits perfectly into TV show Margaery's personality of fitting her personality into her situation like with Joffrey v Tommen v the High Sparrow, she'd definitely be like "okay it's my duty as a wife to listen to my husband" while plotting against Stannis after or just waiting him out.
They only picked the Lannisters because that was the safest and best option that would also advance the family and not just be a white peace/total loss seeing as Stannis was not an option and would destroy them if he won, while the Lannisters could be reasoned with due to their desperation.
Tyrells fight for Stannis -> easy victory with Tyrells brought into the fold and given places at court as your oldest daughter's husband is first in line for the throne to a man who won't have more kids. Worst case scenario they have to wait until Stannis dies.
Tyrells fight for Lannisters v the Starks and Baratheons -> difficult and uncertain victory against somewhat evenly matched foes that *might* get them a queen but might also destroy their house in the process.
Of these two, the first option seems much more in character for the Tyrells, who only picked the Lannisters because Renly was dead and they had no one else
Agreed. The tyrells are characterized, not by their ambition, as that is more a lannister trait, or just a general trait of feudal lords regardless, they are characterized by surviving and thriving (as a house, not per se as individuals) in whatever situation is thrown their way. Hence the flower growing strong.
Olenna isn't a complete moron, which is what this video would suggest is the case. Their house stands to lose everything for the risky move to join up with the lannisters, while commiting to oathbreaking in the form of ending Renly's engagement with Maergary, angering Loras, a legendary and respected warrior AND heir of their house, against the complete risk-free move of just going along with the original plan, plus a little plotting on the side to kill stannis or just let him die heirless.
I think you guys forget the wealth of the Lannisters and Tyrells. Tywin has heard of the golden company and probably is able to pull strings to get a huge army with him
All true, but the Tyrells (book) can still field a huge army. Even without the Hightowers their numbers alone could possibly almost match the Stark+Baratheon alliance
@@Baratheon. Yeah but why would they risk an all-out war they could still lose (Stannis and Robb are literal military geniuses with massive loyal armies) when they could just maintain the betrothal and kill Stannis after a few years?
@@thefifthhobbit2092 the Golden Company are loyal to Aegon “totally not a Blackfyre” Targaryen VI, Tywin could’ve bought the Unsullied and Second Sons before Dani though, she was still in Qaath at this time.
The “Oberyn lives” part is so funny I wholeheartedly agree it’s a fantastic thing
Good take that Stannis and Renly both had one half of what made Robert great, and needed each other to succeed
Thanks Forty and thanks for watching! Liam
Robert's reign wasn't as successful as it is made out to be. Yes, it was overall peaceful, but so was the reign of Aerys II before the Rebellion, excluding the Defiance of Duskendale in 277 AC. His reign was also barely well managed and some good of it was due to Jon Arryn, not Robert. Not to mention, his reign was withering him due to people like Varys, Petyr Baelish, and Cersei Lannister.
Robert, Stannis and Renly are a reflection of Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys - only ironically they had a far less healthy relationship.
@@fitz7231 How? I always thought of them being a reflection of their grandfather, Lord Lyonel Baratheon, the Laughing Storm.
@@billcipherproductions1789 Visenya, severe and harsh with some resentment towards her other siblings, Aegon - the Conqueror and King who rapidly turned enemies into friends - who lost the love of his life while still young, Rhaenys - interested more in the flavour of life - and winning love from the people.
The Baratheon brothers when reflecting the Conqueror and his sisters show the tragedy of what could have been if they actually worked together - and resolve their issues to any extent.
I feel like the Tyrells wouldn’t be that bold. Olenna did say they should’ve never gotten involved so I can see them pledging to Stannis with Renly at best or pulling a Lysa Arryn at worst.
Would be much better for Stannis if they did 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
Mace was hellbent on Margaery becoming Queen, so if Sansa's betrothal fell apart, then the Tyrells would support the Lannisters so that Joffrey and Margaery can marry.
@@billcipherproductions1789Sansa’s best chance to become Queen long term & for a happy ending for the Tyrells was for Sansa to keep her marriage to Renly & support Stannis.
Sansa would become a Princess & she would be Queen once Stannis dies of old age. Her & Renlies kids would’ve been the rulers of Westeros.
The only downside for them is Sansa would be more of a princess then a Queen since she’s mostly be a Queen when she’s an old lady
Lysa only got that off because of the inability to actually lay siege and penetrate the veil. Otherwise she would have more than likely been forced to act one way or another
Still better written plot than the disaster we witnessed in session 5
Why thank you good general 😂 but then again not exactly a high bar to suppass. Dam I wish GRRM would give us the next book already. Liam
Melisandre is not all Stannis has in terms of magical defense.
There is Robb Stark's little brother, Bran.
An All-Seeing tree wizard who can tell you when and where Dany will strike, what are her plans, what are her numbers and dispositions etc.
If it comes to battle, he may also shatter all of Dany's hopes by warging into her dragons and burning her army.
A potential game changer in the fight against Daenerys.
I'm not one for putting faith in Bran after seeing his "powers" in season 8 😂 but book Bran should hopefully be much more magical if we ever get to see it.
I would agree with you though, if he could warg a dragon he could serious eff Danys invasion up! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips The books nerfed the magical elements because the show runners did not understand it. Just take Euron Greyjoy for example.
Book Euron is freaking terrifying what with crazed magical quest to become a god. The less said about show Euron the better.
Bran will be 100% more powerful in the books.
It's for the same reason they messed up Stannis'character because they neither understood or liked him.
@@gerardjagroo We can definitely find common ground on that front gerardjagroo! Book Euron is a god dam monster! I hope Bran gets his redemption in the books! Liam
Consider Bran Wargging into one of Dany’s dragons during a naval battle in the Narrow Sea. Imagine Dany’s shock when Drogon turns on her. Potentially knocking her off, or just straight dive bombing into one of her own ships while she’s on his back. Taking out one of her ships, the Unsullied onboard, Dany, assuming the shock kills her or she drowns. And potentially even killing one of her dragons In the impact. Idk if dragons can swim, but consider, a 2 ton winged reptile, crashing face first into a massive wooden ship, before diving into the ocean.
@@EVER_PRINCEthe Targaryens conquered Westeros surely the wargs would have done this if they could.
I disagree with your description of Renly. He is not very politically intelligent or savvy, he’s just charismatic. He does a *horrible* job as Master of Laws, failing to detect even the obvious corruption of Janos Slynt. He was easily manipulated by the Tyrells. He fails to properly command his army, spending his money hosting tournaments and buying luxuries while Stannis trains. He doesn’t see through the schemes of Littlefinger and Varys, being easily manipulated by both. He fails to even convince Ned to seize Joffrey when all he had to do was tell Lord Stark that his kids were in danger if he didn’t.
In fairness anyone would have a better chance of soloing the army of the dead with nothing but their bare hands than trying to convince Ned to do something dishonourable. Its cool to disagree, you make some good points! Thanks for sharing Cassius! Liam
Renly was so gay 🫠
@@TheFandomeClipsNed lied about Jon's heritage and he said Joffrey was the true king to save his children. He's honorable, but his children and family are more important to him.
Ned was simply willfully ignorant and negligent coz the very moment he realized that Joffrey wasn’t a true born Baratheon he should have sneaked his kids out of kings landing. I doubt that Ned would have been successful in saving his family since he offered his trust recklessly to others and it become his own undoing. Therefore, it would never have really mattered if Renly was politically savvy coz he would never be successful in winning Ned over to his side. Ned had already made it clear that he would support Stannis who was next in line and Renly’s is his rival to the throne. If Renly was politically savvy he would have persuaded Ned as ‘an act of kindness’ to sneak his family out of Kings landing for him. Knowing Ned’s character he would have agreed coz he likes to think the best of people’s intentions. Once Renly had Ned’s daughters in his custody instead of sending them up to the North, he would take them as hostages. Ned was going to die either way but Renly would have used Sansa and Arya as leverage to get Robb to swear his fealty to him. If Renly failed in stopping Robb from reinstating the Northern crown he could still push for an alliance that would benefit him the most like marrying Sansa into queen Margery’s family. This act would have ensured that Renly could still control the North through the most loyal house sworn to him.
@@TheFandomeClips very true
The true wildcard in all this, apart from the Tyrells, is Littlefinger and his puppet Lysa Arryn.
I doubt he would allow the war to be an utter cakewalk in Stannis' favor without involving the Vale by allying with House Lannister.
Worst of all, such an alliance may come as a complete surprise to our heros 😊, and at the worst possible moment like how the Lannister/Tyrell alliance suddenly showed up at the Siege of King's Landing.
Littlefinger is terrified of Stannis as he's the one person he cannot flatter, bamboozle, or deceive and Stannis, who never liked him, would kill him at the drop of a hat.
Stannis winning would be worst case scenario for Littlefinger and he'd do anything to prevent that from happening.
Its certainly a possibility! Littlefingers going to have to so some serious convincing though, I don't lady Aryan is very fond of the Lannisters if my memory serves me right and she doesn't quite possess the Tyrells ambition and strong stomach to play ball with factions they dislike, but yeah would be a nasty shock for the Mannis, containing the Tyrells only to have the knights of Vale hit him instead! Thanks for watching! LIAM
@@TheFandomeClips Lysa is his puppet. He got her to poison Jon Arryn and to send that letter to Lady Catelyn saying that it was the Lannisters who poisoned him.
@@TheFandomeClips I think littlefinger will die very quickly in this scenario because Stannis would have learned what he did to Eddard stark.
I'm not sure the lords would stand for this the lords of the vale were already upset that she didn't help the north against the Lannisters I don't think they would willingly send their troops to help tywin
@@tristainmyers458 didn’t they besiege the eyrie after lysa died.
Can you do, how little finger could've won? It is really the hardest and most challenging to ponder because his plan is so complex
This!
I think Little Finger only wins if Dany and the Night King show up faster and the Long Night lasts longer than a completely normal night.
We'll put him on the list! Hard mode challenge that though! Especially because of how ridiculously dumbed down he was in the show and at present the show is all we've got 😂 we'll put him on the next vote Arch! Thanks for watching!
@@somersault1123 But what is Little Finger after? What does he want to win? Chaos may be a ladder, but to what? It can't be the Iron Throne: If he has any intelligence he knows that a man like him, who thrives on chaos and has no true, loyal allies, won't keep the throne for long. His best bet is to be a Richelieu, the power behind the power. For this, he needs a puppet ruler, and it appears the likely choice is Sansa.
There is a term for a person in this position: A Favorite. This is a precarious position in itself: he will be forced into a role of dedicated support: he will no longer be an essentially independent agent. A Favorite is also often the magnet for any disapproval of what's going on; a favorite is an object of envy and resentment. A Favorite often comes to a bad end - a famous historical example is don Alvaro de Luna; another is Piers Gaveston. We can toss in Wolsey and Thomas Cromwell. Forever tethered to the ruler, the Favorite must also be on guard against rivals, as the Marques de Villena was in the court of Enrique IV of Castile. If Little Finger is intelligent, he cannot want to sacrifice his freedom of action and allegiance to such personal instability.
I'm going to commit blasphemy and say that Little Finger was never a particularly attractive or interesting character to me, not in the books or the series: his core feels somehow empty to me; there's something about him that feels "rote".
Well in the books his game plan was to keep the Vale out of the war and hoard food until winter, then when winter came and the rest of the realm was starving he would sell his stockpile of grain at exuberant prices to potentially gain lands and titles.
Militarily, the best chance for Stannis to beat Dany is through a prolonged war of attrition, avoiding a setpiece battle wherever there is a chance for her to deploy the dragons. By striking early with his fleet (intact without a battle on the Blackwater) he can deliver a disabling blow before the war truly begins.
The issue is that his throne is still quite precarious; the longer a war goes on, the more likely it is he is betrayed or a mass defection occurs.
Dragons are quite persuasive warlord 😂 Dany is one of those video game bosses your not supposed to beat, but if you can take one of her 2 trump cards from her (her dragons and her army) the other half becomes far less of a problem! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@shifterverse They would be outmatched at sea. Jaehaerys the 1st destroyed A dornish fleet with only 3 dragons (although there were 3 riders) In the show Daenerys destroyed the masters fleet with her 3 dragons . And it is extremely difficult to aim with a ballista on land, and is impossible to shoot with accuracy at sea(the ships rocks constantly, hence Euron Greyjoy in the show must have used cheats to kill Danny s dragon with 3 perfect shots) The only chance for Stannis to win is to kill Danny with the help of Mellisandra otherwise in the field there is less than 1% of chance for him to win.
Yeah the Dornish beat Aegon by basically disappearing into the deserts of Dorne every time a Targaryen showed up in the books there was nothing for their dragons to burn. That is how Stannis would beat Dany if she wants Westeros to side with her she can't just run around willy nilly and burn every isolated village and turn entire forests to ash that might be holding Guerilla Stannis forces that are slowly whittling down her Unsullied and just about anyone else that sides with her. People love fighting for a righteous cause but even the most fanatical will get tired after five months of running around trying to pin down a slippery small group of soldiers that are killing one or two of your men every night and you can't have a dragon show up just to kill 25-150 guys who are making your life hell. And if Dany starts burning everything suddenly she goes from rightful claim to the throne to tyrant who murders everyone who gets in her way, no better than her father The Mad King.
I often forget that GoT is not real history lol.
About Dany... In the BUKS™, the Hightowers and the Maesters are studying magic, and it's hinted that Maesters have an anti-dragon conspiracy. It's very likely that they could offer some sort of magical help for Stannis.
Aye I've read a little about that sort of stuff online, I'm sure that the citadel would be happy to help out the Mannis if it meant keeping the peace. Dragons are very unpredictable. Thanks for watching! Liam
It'd be interesting to see a video about Robb sending or offering to send prisoners of war to the wall, since one of the complaints from his bannermen was having too manty, and how having a lot more trained soldiers at the wall would've changed how the whole Mance thing turned out
Well unless there were stark men at the wall to prevent the prisoners from deserting or escaping before they said their vows, chances are there would just be tons of new bandits and brigands in the wolfswood and along the kingsroad.
@@enclaveherewhyisntyourvide3089easy, send Locke and his men to escort the prisoners to the wall. He’d make sure they make it and say their vows
@@misanthropicservitorofmars2116 if you mean the show Locke, then he'd just recruit them all for Lord Bolton's treachery...
Hiring a faceless man is definitely the most effective but it sounds too easy. I like the idea of sending a couple of people to dragonstone, the castle still seeming unoccupied, and unleashing wildfire on Dany’s fleet when they arrive (with dragonstone officially unoccupied it’s reasonable for stannis to assume that’s where Dany will first go when she leaves Essos)
Thanks for your insights Amokafor! Storms end has some significance to Dany which I think Stannis is aware of, its one of the better options, I don't fancy his chances in a straight up fight 😂 thanks for watching! Liam
I think Varys would 'let slip' that Littlefinger held a dagger to Ned Stark's throat and personally oversaw Joffrey's initial rise to power. Robb and Stannis would instantly be hellbent on killing him. Honestly at that point Littlefinger's best chance is to flee the realm and maybe side with Dany later.
If one desgraced former maester can come up with the scorpion what could the entire citadel have prepped for the throne given the same prep time? There are plenty of implications they had a hand in getting rid of the dragons last time. Also, with the Dornish on side they'd potentially have access to their records of how they killed/captured Rhaeneys(?) And her dragon during Aegons conquest.
I actually don't think Danys much of a threat in this scenario. She's not a millitary commander and the dragons make her very over confident.
We definite agree the dragons are more of a terror weapon than a conquering one! Your right with a good commander and the best minds at their disposal they might be able to come up with something better than Qyburn. Thanks for watching! Liam
Thank you for the content. I'd still rather the Stark victory but Robb beheading Joffrey would be a happy second. I'd be very interested on your how Dorne could win take.
You are just Stannis fanatics, so write like that. The dragons would burn Stannis. He couldn't beat Joffrey, he didn't have dragons
I mean Dany managed to defeat the cities of Slavers Bay without dragons and even showed some strategic thinking in Yunnkai in the books. A few cities may be one thing in comparison to conquering all of Westeros, but she still has a strategic mind and is not to be underestimated.
@@coffeewolfproductions9113 oh I don't think shes inept in any way. But in the scenario she has little to no spy network and is going up against a united Westeros with anti dragon prep time. I just can't see that going any way but badly for her.
39:09 I think that Robb would’ve stayed loyal so long as Renly doesn’t kill Stannis in this scenario. He’s honorable like his father, and I don’t see him breaking his vows of loyalty to Stannis even if his men want him to. If Renly kills Stannis and it becomes publicly known, I could maybe see Robb declaring independence or refusing to acknowledge Renly as king, due to the dishonorable way Renly got to power. Which would likely spark a war between the two due to Renly’s power hungry nature
Definitely agree Matt! Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Its our favourite part of the video hearing others chime in! Liam
Robb is honorable but hes loyal to his people. and they dont want a southerner as their king.
Kinslaying is one of the most heinous sins in Westeros. If Renly did the deed, most of his bannermen would turn against him immediately.
@@Aredel all of renly's army seemed to agree that stannis was gonna die in the upcoming battle, and didnt seem to care. all renly said on the matter is "dont desecrate my brother's body"
I'd love to see a vid discussing how the Tyrells might have won 😉
It's on the list Jeremy though we're still deciding the format, as they can't fight for the throne straight up, lots more political weaving an manuvering. Thanks for watching!
@@shifterversecontact2149 I look forward to it then 😊
tbh, at least temporarily, it's as easy as Margaery managing to get the High Sparrow to let her & everyone else out of the Great Sept before it blows up (in the show version).
Tommen would still jump, Cersei would be exposed for trying to murder the Queen, High Septon, and small council, and Kevan and Mace would have their armies seize and kill her. There would have to be a new Regent chosen, since all the Baratheons are dead, and seeing as Margaery saved everyone's lives, was popular with the nobility & common folk anyway, and the High Sparrow would want it to be her (since she'd still have him thinking he's got her under his thumb) she'd be a shoe in pick. Queen Regent could then easily morph into Queen Regnant as with Cersei, especially seeing as she's vastly more well liked and politically minded. Also probably wouldn't hurt that installing Margaery would be the best way too spite Cersei on death row, and the only reliable way for Kevan to save face for House Lannister, preserve the alliance, and distance himself further from his batcrap niece who tried to kill him.
All the Tyrells would really have to worry about past that point is Dany showing up. Their vassals, namely Randyll Tarly, won't betray them here because Dany is bringing a scary foreign army while Margaery would be protecting the realm. They'd have the Lannister armies under Kevan on-side. Margaery could probably persuade Sansa to keep the North involved and to ally with her since she trusted Margaery but was immediately suspicious of Dany (only going along with her because Cersei was worse), and with the North probably comes the Riverlands and the Vale. Varys may also defect from Dany sooner as it becomes increasingly apparent she's unhinged and not great for the realm while Margaery is all charity and persuasion.
If the Dragons don't beat them, the Tyrells could lock in Margaery as the effective successor to tragically dead husband Tommen and kickstart a new dynasty on the throne. They would need to find her husband #4 though of course. 🤣
In short, follow step 1 and 2, keep Margary married to Renly, get her pregnant (if not by Renly, then by one of Robert's bastards and tell the realm the child is Renly's), then ccontinue with Stannis being king, and wait for his inevitable heirless death, which makes Renly the king and the son of Margaery the heir.
@@GeneralGrievousCIS Hello there. We certainly won't plagiarise a bunch of your extremely well made points for the actual vid. Thanks for sharing your insights good General! Lian
Personally i do believe the tyrells might just wait out for renly to ascend the throne,maybe even without the whole assassination plot. To begin with,stannis would have the combined might of the north,stormlands and riverlands,which would be a mighty host of warriors,all led by proven commanders(stannis himself,robb once the fughting starts and the blackfish),so they would be very well aware the lannisters odds are little to none without their support. Secondly,like it has been poimted out,stannis will likely have no male heirs,so the odds are certainly in their favor to get the iron throne,the tyrells can be very patient if they know they are dealt a winning hand. Thats what i think at least
Honestly that's some great points! It's so much fun trying to predict what these house might do and we honestly love seeing all the different opinions in the comments. I personally think the Tyrells will bugger off and sit it out, but then again if they don't declare Stannis might have some punishment in mind for not coming to the aid of their king. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Liam
@@TheFandomeClipsI don’t think they would ever do that it’s too much of a risk. Stannis and them have already bad feelings and he is married to florent, sitting out would mean not gaining anything and making it a higher chance for the Lannister to lose and to stannis to dislike them even further with a good enough reason to ruin them completely and gift highgarden to his family relation
I personally think that Stannis could proclaim Robb as warden of the north and have the houses bend their knee to him as this is what happened with Robert and Eddard. In any case I think the northern houses would be a little more enthusiastic to bend the knee to Stannis compared to the show where they basically bent the knee to Danny.
Hindsight is most certainly 20/20 Pavleg 😂 bet Greatjon Umber was spinning in his grave when Jon bent his knee to Dany. Thanks for watching! Liam
based on what? you cant just make shit up. the North hated all the southerners.
How Wonderful to see Robb executing Joffrey using Ice. While Joffrey shouting out desperately for mercy, That be a badass scene!
If Robb just married the Frey daughter and controlled the twins, then help Stannis seige Kingslanding on both sides, they would have taken the city, killed Joffrey and pushed Tywin back. Maybe Stannis wants to keep the north or not, something could’ve been worked out
I think Stannis would have let Rob rule the North, but I don't think there's a white walkers chance in hell he'd have allowed Rob to call himself king in the north. Thanks for watching! Lima
absurd. the war was lost by that point.
and robb DID try to help Stannis take KL
1. Renly would never have agreed to bending the knee to Stannis. He had the weaker claim, but had the bigger army and the support of one of the most powerful houses in the Tyrells (gold and food win you wars). He was in the better position overall. He had zero reason to cede to Stannis and would never have agreed to it.
2. If Robb and Stannis had talked before the Greatjon declared Robb King in the North , maybe an alliance could be reached. One which saw Robb recognize Stannis’ claim, and which saw Robb take the Warden of the North.
But if it was after Robb becoming King in the North, they would never come to an agreement. Similarly to when Cat tried to reason with Renly. The Baratheons put it plain and simple: the whole realm or war. And King Robb had no chance to bend his knee again. There was one Stark who did that and he was forever remembered as a coward. The Northern Lords would never have agreed to it, and it could potentially have opened up a chance for the Boltons to attempt to seize power from the Starks.
3. Renly was in my opinion not capable of murdering his own brother. I believe Renly would have let Stannis live if he defeated him, and I don’t believe he ever had any real intention of kinslaying.
That’s why Stannis won between them in the end, because he was ruthless enough to actually murder his own brother. Renly was not. (Not that he would ever find himself in the position of being Stannis’ heir, as said in point 1)
Should we consider how beneficial it would be for a political marriage it would be if Stanis marries his daughter to a Stark? Like it doesn’t have to be Rob, but Rickon? Either one is a good option. Regardless, if Renly is made legal hier, that means Shireen can be wed without issue. And if Rob wants to be king so bad, give him a princess as his bride, earn his loyalty and the support of the North. I know Stannis would never consider it, but it makes the most sense politically.
I think just helping Rob get his revenge would be enough to gain his support Big Red. But yes once you have a hold over the realn solidifying alliances should be Stannis's number 1 priority! Thanks for watching! Liam
@@shifterverse see I agree with you that helping would go far to prove to the North that The Mannis can be trusted. I more meant it to say that it’s a great way to make sure the North stays loyal, ensures Stannis has someone he can trust take care of his daughter, given Stannis isn’t getting any younger and, despite Shiren being a strong young woman, she needs protection as she gets older. Plus itll most likely keep Renly and the Tyrels from acting stupid. Given if the Baratheons marry with the Starks, if Stannis was Assassinated, house Baratheon would fracture between those who support Renly, and those who supported Stannis, and still support his family. Plus that would mean Rob or whoever marries the princess, would become king. So at the end of the day, Renly has two choices. Kill Stannis early, risking losing his throne early in another bloody war against a far more experienced and brilliant tactical general, who is also currently wed to his niece, and thus has the support of his realm. Or Renly can shut up, sit down, go pray with Lorace, and wait for his turn. And, because Lorace can’t give the throne a hier, not without trying really hard lol, Rob and Shireen’s son, assuming they have one, with inherit the throne. Oh look, the North Wins. Look at that. Lol jokes near the end lol.
While I doubt Stannis could afford a Faceless Man to kill Dany with the realm so deeply indebted to the Iron Bank, it's possible the Faceless Men wouldn't need much convincing given they seem to be ideologically against the Valyria of old. Odds are they'd want Dany or those dragons dead. However, like they seem to be doing in the books, I think they'd pursue this independently of Stannis. By the time Stannis secures the throne in this timeline, we're in Season 4 at the latest I think. If Stannis prioritises Dany instead of going for the Iron Islands, he has time to go on offence before Dany's dragons can hold their own on a battlefield. If he was able to make a deal with the slavers, perhaps lending some of his armies as mercenaries, he could take her down.
Problem is I don't see Stannis making a deal with slavers 😂 I do think your right though, the dragons are not quite the terror weapons they became at that point in the game and getting them then would be far less costly for Stannis! Thanks for watching! Liam
Don't forget in thee books Braavos is very anti-slavery and it seems like the faceless men are actually trying to convince the iron bank to work with Dany to slavery (through strategic murders)
Dany has been freeing slaves, I dont think the faceless men would be against her
It's really about time your channel blows up the way it deserves. I love the long format Videos!
Thanks Dustin! Comments like that honestly make our day! Thanks for watching!Liam
@@shifterverse you're welcome Liam, it's mutual! Whenever you guys upload a video it makes mine too! Keep it up!
I think that the Vale would not stay out of the conflict since it is basically being controlled by Littlefinger and he would not risk having Stannis on the throne and wants to have as much chaos as possible. A win by the baratheons would basically destroy most hopes for chaos
About facing Daenerys with a united realm...
Well... Tyrells won't he happy for being punished by Stannis, and the Reach may consider helping her
The Westerlands (Kevan if he survives) won't be a Stanniss the fan #1
Dorne would jump to help her with the possibility of getting a consort king of their house, also with Tywin dead they may get along with the Westerlands
And if Theon gets the Iron islands I don't think they would accept him, bcs he is more northenmen than ironborn, he would likely be deposed and Asha or Euron would join Daenerys
And... Kinvara, she is the
High Priestess of the Red Temple of Volantis, Melissandre is low tier comepared to her, she is also know as "First Servant of the Lord of Ligth" so... yeah...
In the worst scenario Dany had the surviving Tyrells, Greyjoys and maybe Lannisters, along side Dorne, some Lord of Ligth suportters that are more powerful than Melissandre, the unsolids and Dodrakis
So... the best option against Dany is the worst against the Nigth King, this would mean to reduce the Tyrells, Lannisters and Iron Islands to nothing, because the new house with the tittles of Lord Paramount of the Reach and Westerlands would be loyal to Stanniss but it would also affect his army.
I mean, Daenerys is just way too op, the only reasonable option against her would be the faceless assasins
Renly would never have met with Davos, it would have been considered a great insult to send someone lowborn to treat with a king on behalf of another king. This would have probably created even more enmity between the brothers. I know show only fans love Davos, but you gotta remember he's just a lowborn and landless knight in Stannis' service and at this point in the story he's not Stannis' hand yet.
Thats a good point in all fairness. Renly was one for pomp, ethier way you need someone who's more tactful wording the offer to Stannis. Thanks for the insight! Liam
I just want to say that your content is brilliant and definitely underrepresented by RUclips. Keep it up!
Thanks Ronin! We're getting there slowly but surely. Thanks for tuning in! Liam
If Stannis marched to Highgarden, then they would have 80,000 men there to crush it. Not to mention, the Northern Army would have to go through with the Freys and the Lannisters, with the latter attacking them at every second. So yes, an army of 20,000 morally depleted men versus an army of fully mobilised, strong morale men of 80,000 is for sure doom to the latter. And yes, by the time the armies from the North got to Highgarden, the Reach's army would long be ready. So yes, that would've been able to manoeuvre them to their side. And also, if this was possible, the Lannisters would've done it sooner as they are closer and had a larger army than the North.
Yes!!! Finally!!
You have no idea how long I've been waiting for that, mate
If Stannis and House Baratheon would have gotten some characters from Breaking Bad, Walter White, Jesse Pinkman, Gus Fring, Tuco Salamanca, Mike Ehrmantraut and Lalo. Then and only then would the Baratheons have been 100% unstoppable! In this scenario Stannis could have asked the North for aid at the Battle of Blackwater. Likewise, if by some strange chance they become aware of Tyrion's intention to marry Mryrcella into House Martell of Dorne; Stannis could have sent Shireen to Dorne.
Don't forget Saul Goodman. Better call Saul!
@@gameryazov8327 of course he's a given. you'll need a replacement after someone executes littlefinger.
@@constantinebodien1887 did you know you have rights? the 7 kingdom say you do
@@SaltoDaKid The long term plan after taking out Danearys, the dragons and white walkers is to create two groups. Walter, Mike, and Lalo sail to Bravos to put an end to the faceless men permanently. Walter and Lalo set off a series of explosions while Mike as a sniper takes out a dozen known faceless men, they return to the House of Black and White and burn it to the ground. At the same, Jesse and Tuce head to Oldtown accompanied by Saul. Saul disguised as a master enters the citadel as a distraction while Jesse and Tuco take out most of the masters. They have been pulling strings for too long
I’m liking this series. You should do Dorne or the Reach next.
I know there isn’t much to go on with Dorne in the show but definitely a lot in the books, some that’s yet to be seen.
So maybe a mix?
Also even though your April Fools Greyjoy video was hilarious, maybe do one on how they could have actually one.
That’s one of the best plot lines from the last two books.
We've got the greyjoys on the list Walrus! Dorne too although we're still holding out hope we can get TWOW before we tackle Dorne. As it stands we tend to go show only past the war of the 5 kings andbi seriously doubt anyone wants to watch a 20-40 min vid about the show version of the Sandsnakes 😂😂😂 thanks for watching! Liam
Wasnt the whole poin that Renly didnt wish to wait any longer and the majority of the southern Lords preferred him over Stannis, while Stannis, while realizing that FEW people wanted him as King, that he BELIEVED it was his RIGHT to be the King (which it is if we disregard that Robert was an usurper)?
It would have been smart if EITHER of them would have given in, but neither did, which is why the negotiations ultimately failed.
In all honesty Renly probably would have been the best choice for the 7 Kingdoms... then again... its hard to tell for sure with the white Walkers etc.
in the books, Renly is crowned by Mace Tyrell who is using Renly to gain the iron throne. he wants his granson on it and Renly is a means to that end as he is ummarried..
I like these type of videos. You guys really did look at every detail. Well done.
Thanks Sirmr! We did our best in this one, problem is with this universe is that it is so dam intricate and the butterfly effects of changes are so numerous that its nearly impossible to account for every possibility 😂 but been disagreed with and having people point out what we miss is part of the fun! Thanks for tuning in! Liam
I genuinely don't think Renly would kill his brother he said it himself I loved him once and this would be happening before they became enemies I think the guarantee of being the air with a very likely chance that he never has a son is good enough for him.
If only that was explained to him in a tactful way, roll credits 😂 thanks for sharing your thoughts! Liam
That line was taken from book Stannis and given to show Renly.
The Tyrells definitely would have sided with Stannis knowing the condition was that Renly be heir to the throne. They had no problem assassinating the king in cannon, they would just have to find someone else to pin it on. This would throw a wrench into the Baratheon game plan, since its hard to predict when they would strike, or who they would frame. I think most of these scenarios where Stannis is assassinated end badly since an ally of Stannis would probably be framed, which would fracture the realm again.
tyrells definitely would not only not side with Stannis, they ride in and easily kil him and al his forces then mary Margaery tio Joffrey and take over Westeros. they have no reason to chain themselves to Stannis with a tiny army when Margaery wants to be queen now. right now. and they can join the much bigger and richer lannister army.
Renly has no reason to be heir to the throne when he can just be...on the throne. like right now. immediately.
Its awesime your just telling diferount courses it could ja e taken , they are very interesting and PLEASE DONT STOP MAKING THESE
Love the longer videos keep it up!
Cough cough by Renly not fucking things up and working with Stannis the Mannis cough cough
why would he do that? he had the war won due to having the biggest army. how could he have magically known mel can spit demons out of her vagina?
Haha the fires say that should be move number 1 for sure 😂
Even if they did work together, they would have to hope that the Tyrells would remain neutral because if they side with the Lannisters, 80,000 men of the Reach and the King's Landing regiment plus the Lannister troops could easily defeat the Stormlands and the North.
Renly would certainly try to use the Mannis and then assassinate him. Obviously he wouldn't succeed if only because Melisandre, but underhandedly snagging the Tyrells to his cause would still happen either way.
The aftermath of this failed attempt to end Stannis is when the Tyrells are dealt with. If they capitulate, Stannis executes those deemed guilty of being part of the conspiracy. If they don't, they are starved into submission, their house utterly destroyed. Stannis would also reluctantly order the death of Renly, as the punishment for treason is clear. Of the other leading actors, I think Tyrion is allowed to take the black, as his main crime was fighting for the wrong side. His siblings and father are undoubtedly put to death, though. Gregor Clegane is likewise executed for his many crimes, his head offered to Dorne however it is acquired. Littlefinger is allowed to take the black if he chooses--I think he does "accept" only to try to escape to Essos. Varys and Pycelle are also executed for crimes going back to the reign of the Mad King. Goodbye Greyjoys, as well.
Despite this bloodbath, Stannis is regarded as a just and respected King, ironically more beloved by the smallfolk due to this stability and fairness than by the nobility.
Hey Warlord thanks for tuning in and offering your detailed insight as always! I'm not so sure Tyrion would get to take the black after the wildfire trick, but maybe if he's tried on a day where Mannis is feeling a tad more reasonable, miracles do tend to happen for the authors favourite characters lol! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips
In that case, it depends even more if this is book or show Stannis. Book Stannis also blamed his admirals for falling into the trap-but in this scenario, that either doesn’t happen or isn’t the decisive blow it was in the real timeline. Either way, if Tyrion pleads to take the black (assuming his usual gambit of a trial-by-combat isn’t an option) Stannis will not deny him that, especially with the Others coming….
@@warlordofbritannia Stannis wouldn't know the Others are coming at this point, but I agree that he wouldn't execute Tyrion. He didn't actually commit a crime, it was war and he was defending his house. I also think he'd spare Tommen and Myrcella. Tywin, Cersei, Jaime, and Joffrey are fucked, though.
@@Edmures_rampant_manhoodYeah, Tommen would be “encouraged” to take the black or join the Citadel/Faith, Myrcella would also be “encouraged” into the Faith, but Joffrey is on his way out
The thought of having a battle strategy meeting between Stannis and Rob is SO good. Especially considering how Stannis is a pseudo father figure to Jon Its pretty obvious how Stannis would view Rob. Add the Black Fish and then *chefs kiss* its so unfortunate this didn't happen.
Really good vid, thanks for the time and effort
Stannis should’ve sought Robb’s help rather than be a bitter “do it all for me” little man. Classic middle child syndrome
Robb was a usurper.
Liked the video but here are some points I wish you included
- Stannis could get Dorne or the Vale on side by betrothing Shireen to Robin or Trystane and drawing on their mutual harried of lions. This is suggested in the books
- Instead of marching against Stannis Renly should keep on going to Kings Landing with the Tyrells and turn around after the city falls. Storms End can hold out for a long time and Stannis’s army is too small to be a threat
- Robbwoudlnt be able to besiege Highgarden as it’s in the center of the reach and his forces were already too spread out with just the occupation of the Westerlands alone. The reach is to vast for him to occupy
Some great ideas and good points there mistman! In regards to the reach Rob doesn't need to occupy it, merely keep the Tyrells holed up and tied up. Anything that delays them riding to help the Lannisters. I totally forgot about the Tristan and Robyn suggestions, time I reread the series I think to refresh my memory! Thanks for sharing your thoughts mistman! Liam
Stannis cannot.
Lysa would have told him to piss off. Doran would have told him to piss off. neither are in the headspace to want any Baratheon as king.
If this was a Total War game, Stannis’ campaign would be Legendary.
Long live the one true king - Thom
One unintended consequence in the mid-late areas of the Game of Thrones is that a lot of the chaff gets cleared away and some of the more highly skilled figures come to the fore.
Ramsay, for example, could lead a *crack* elite unit of saboteurs, skirmishers, and assassins/infiltrators, yet he's wasted minding the Dread Fort while his father is off at war. Sure, Robb would never approve of the tactics, but after the third or fourth siege that gets past the gates because Ramsay scaled the walls and murdered his way to the gate controls, maybe he'd change his mind.
Also, to clarify, Ramsay is an absolute horrendous monster of a human being, I just meant that strategically, he is very useful.
Also a problem with Step 7 is that the Red Priests back in Essos seem to think Dany is the "One who was Promised", and they may convince Melisandre to kill Stannis and then flee the Capital, leaving the realm to Renly, and as you've said, he'd capitulate the moment he sees Drogon for the first time.
Mel is also seen as something of black sheep though in her religion, she's quite fanatical to Stannis though we have absolutely no way of knowing for certain what she'll do. Id hard agree on Ramsey, at least his show version. In the books hes not nearly as capable but his show counterpart is........... whats the evil equivalent of a Gary Stu? 😂 thanks for sharing your thoughts! Liam
We all know the real king is Patchface. Not too crazy he is probably the avatar of the Drowned God. I know, I know, oh oh oh.
Haha Patchface on the throne is a scary prospect. The kingdom wouldn't be cruel, it wouldn't be fair, it would just be batshit crazy 😂
@@shifterverse Still better than Bran.😕Who the hell though anyone would love him as king. All the kingdoms would go independent like the north.
The best wild card king is Little Griff who is definitely a Blackfyre. In my opinion he has a lot of great ways to gain an upper hand.
Doesn't Stannis tell Jon Snow that Robert often went on about how difficult it was to rein in the North? Even with Lord Eddard's unwavering support of Robert?
Stannis should have remembered that, and kept in mind that Robb was a boy and Eddard was in a dungeon. You need assurances from Lord Robb as soon as possible, and it is not hindsight so suggest that things might go south...
For sure Novat, thats why at the end in our tid bits we suggested that the North may still get funny ideas. They are a stubborn people who by all rights have the strength to govern themselves. Thanks for your insights! Liam
First one of your videos ive ever seen (paused a few minutes in to watch Stark episode), gotta say this was really well done. 👍👍
Thanks KS, we try our best and are still finding our feet! Comments like this make our day though! Liam
LONGER!😂😂honestly though these videos are amazing keep ‘em coming, and I wouldn’t mind them being a little longer as well
Longer than 40 minutes?!!! 💀💀💀😳😳😳😂😂😂
i think even without Qyburn Stannis would be able to acquire scorpions. pretty sure one of the dragons during Aegons conquest was killed in Dorne with such a contraption, plus had have all the scientific and engineering manpower in Westeros, so pretty sure he'd be able to get ahold of some
We agree Maginificant. We knew that if we said Stannis could try to develop and use scorpions we'd get flooded with comments along the lines of "Qyburn invented the scorpion and he's not around in this scenario so you can't know if Stannis will have them" 😂 which is why we suggested he fund "anti dragon weaponry" instead. Thanks for sharing your insights! Liam
For the tyrells, I would say they kill stannis even if renly doesn’t ask for them to because it is a similar thing they did to Joffrey so Margery could marry tommon. The north wouldn’t send Theon because they have the Royal fleet that they need to take king’s landing. For the Martells I think they side with stannis if he punishes the Lannister for the murder because he would not have made the same decision if he had been in Robert’s shoes and the martells know this.
Agreed on most! But who do you think the Tyrells would marry to get them into the Royal line? Liam
@@TheFandomeClips would definitely say Renly because he is the easiest to control thanks to Loras being with him.
Ok I’ve watched all of these and im here to tell you- keep going never stop.
Long form video way way better IMO and im sure you;re now getting the analytics to support that. The show clips are fine i like your edits and text to glance at but im listening to these videos and they’re really fun. I love to daydream about what id do if i was dropped in as an advisor to different houses at different times using my ASOIAF knowledge. I don’t find that i feel the need to be right about mine or that yours have to hold up 100%, they’re all what if’s and just for fun. Like fan fiction or more accurately like death battle- but maybe also a lesson to be learned there on what not to turn into from them haha.
Anyways if you read this, be encouraged! Thank you for making this! Looking forward to whoever you decide to do next.
Thank you Wolfen! Comments like this make our day! Your absolutely right, we're making fiction from fiction because its a bit of fun to think about and talk about, especially in a universe as unpredictable and intricate as the GOT universe. Noone can get it 100% right, far too many butterfly effects by making even slight changes, part of the fun is hearing someone else offer up a different opinion! We'll keep going! Thanks for your support and have a great day! Liam
In my eyes:
1. The Tyrells stay out of the War & side with the winner
2. Stannis would use plenty of Wildfire to take care of Dany's army - he saw how effective it was when Tyrion used it against his fleet during The Battle Of The Blackwater
3. The Long Night would be a total pain in the ass though due to Stannis taking notable losses from having to destroy the Greyjoys, destroy the sparrows as well as having to deal with Dany's dragons. Even if Dany lost most of her army having to deal with her & her dragons would cause a lot of Stannis's men to die.
Stannis is the most skilled commander in Westero's while Dany literally forgot The Iron Fleet was waiting for her to return & she lost a dragon because of it, plus as mentioned in the show it would only take 1 well placed arrow to kill Dany. I'd imagine Stannis might lead Dany into a trap for instance where sure his losses would be extreme, but his forces would have a great shot at taking Dany out for good
stannis has no skills as a commander and is a braindead idiot. his only victories have been against undisciplined barbarians and pirates dumber than he is
Stannis winning means he ends the Lannister House completely.
The last thing you want to do as when you got it in a war, is to make martyrs out of your enemies.
Stannis would do it is the point. But I don't see the Lannisters would be martyrs - they are not loved. The only way they would be martyrs is to kill some and leave other alive - then they are martyrs to the living members of the House.
It ends the main house, but Kevan's line would likely be fine, as they had not commited any real crimes.
@@bobafett9348 Stannis would view Kevan as having committed the very real crime and siding with the traitors making him a traitor.
@@johnnydavis5896 Stannis would understand Kevan for he has done the same thing before when he sided with Robert
I think the Tyrells could be convinced to stay with the Baratheons pretty easily if Renly is convinced. Renly is still the heir, and they can be just as sure Stannis isn't likely to have a son and could see the overwhelming force Stannis would have with their support especially if the North is onside too.
Its definitely on the table, I think it all comes down to how its played! Thanks for tuning in! Liam
Stormlands, North < King's Landing, Reach, Lannisters
Stannis cannot broker any deals that involve the winning side giving up and losing power.
renly is the winning side. he knows it. he will reject any deal in which Stannis gets the throne and he doesnt.
THIS is what I saw in the flames! R'hllor shares his prevailing light with RUclips ❤️🔥
Also if Stannis retains support from Robb &the North, and Jon Snow stays alive and well as Lord Commander, then Bran returns to Westeros at the same time or even faster as the 3 eyed raven. If that happens their chances against Danny get way higher; potentially 3 eyed Raven Bran could even warg one of her dragons. Even if he can't, he can track her army's location, strength, strategies, and look into the past for tools against dragons, thus re-introducing the scorpions into the mix
Couldn’t the Boltons still betray rob at Highgarden, and ride with the Tyrells to destroy Stannis at Kingslanding???
Potentially Bagel, though both Walder and Roose only got brave because of Tywins assurances. I think Roose could do some damage by turn cloaking but I don't think he's got enough manpower to overpower the entire North, despite having the biggest singular army after Rob.
The Boltons only betrayed Robb after he started losing the war.
@@George-Hawthorne This is a good point. I don't think Roose got bold until the other houses were quite spent and he had Lannister protection!
Love these videos, only thing I would suggest is that second to Stannis is Randyll Taryl, if Renly did take the throne from Stannis w Tyrell backing then Renly has the Taryls and I can see Randyll covering the weakness that Renly has lacking as a commander, I think Renly/Randyll is a dangerous pair and would do a decent job keeping things steady.
I love how real this video feels, like yeah that is how they would have done it! Keep up the great work.
Thanks Smaug! We will try our best! Thanks for watching! Liam
I'd like to see one of these about how mance could have won not against the seven kingdoms just the north or maybe just the wall
Renly probably wouldn't succeeded in becoming King if Stannis hadn't resorted to blood magic.
Stannis very nearly won the battle of the blackwater, but lost out at the end because of the arrival of Tywin's army.
But... Tywin won at the blackwater because he had his own army PLUS the Tyrell army backing him, as revenge against Stannis for killing Renly. If Stannis had actually fought Renly instead of using evil magic to assassinate him, he would've lost a battle as he was HOPELESSLY outnumbered. Renly then would've marched on King's Landing with all of the Baratheon army plus all of the Tyrell army.
I think he would've won there where Stannis had lost.
I also don't think the Lannister army would've attacked and jumped them because the sole reason that happened was because Littlefinger made a deal with the Tyrells to join Tywin after Renly was assassinated.
Think about it, Tywin is smart. If he had gone to attack Renly's army without those extra forces, Tywin would've been arriving late to a battle where he was already outnumbered and the battle mostly decided by that point prior to his arrival. Even if he had won, which doesn't seem likely given his numerical disadvantage and the disadvantage that his forces would've been exhausted from the long march getting there without any time to rest at all before immediately going into battle, his forces would've been so depleted he wouldn't have been able to stand a chance against the northern forces marching south. The BEST CASE SCENARIO he could've hoped for would've been holing up inside King's Landing and trying to defend it.
I think knowing that it ultimately would've been a defeat, Tywin would've instead sued for peace because I feel like this more aligns with his own goals. At this point, Jaime was still a prisoner of the North and getting him back was a priority. From Tywin's perspective, he could've negotiated with Renly to get Jaime back from the northerners and then bar him from returning to the King's Guard as Renly wouldn't want him in it anyway, which would free up Jaime to then go to Casterly Rock and be the perfect little heir Tywin always wanted. Renly could've made a deal for Jaime, despite not having him, because the northerners primarily just wanted Joffrey and Cersei dead and the Lannisters to no longer hold the crown. As Renly already accomplished that at this point, their will to continue fighting would end. And with Lannister, Baratheon, AND Tyrell armies backing Renly at that point, the northerners wouldn't have stood a chance and would've known that, I think Robb would've agreed to Renly's terms and ended the war.
Tywin would've been uphappy that he was no longer grandfather to the king, but from his perspective, King Joffery was a Baratheon anyway, not a Lannister, so it isn't like his dynasty was removed from the crown. If Joffery was already dead, there would really be no point in emotionally fighting the war on to avenge him as Tywin doesn't really care about people and is more logical than that, he would've been looking at the pros and cons of every decision and continuing to fight a war he knew he couldn't win against overwhelming odds against him would be foolish. I think he would've swapped to damage control mode and focused entirely on getting Jaime back to continue his legacy and dynasty.
And of course after peace was had by everybody else, they would've gone after the Iron Islands. Theon was the last male heir and held as a hostage to keep his father in line, but his father didn't give a shit. Since Theon had betrayed Robb AND he wasn't useful as a hostage, I think this time around they would've just killed him and since the Greyjoy line would've been broken after Baelon's death anyway, killed Baelon as well for rebelling against the crown TWICE in his lifetime. I doubt anyone would've seriously considered Yara's desire to rule and they either would've appointed someone to rule the Iron Islands or let the Iron Islanders pick their own next leader. It's also possible Euron Greyjoy would've tried to join up with Renly's coalition and agreed to take over leadership of the iron islands and help the crown defeat baelon. Not sure how all that bit would pan out, but i'm sure Renly would've won the war. He would've survived, Robb would've survived, the Tyrells would've survived, the Martells would've survived, etc etc.
Thats my belief anyway.
Melisandre and her blood magic ruined Westeros.
I hope to see more of these.
I’ve never been this early, class vid as always
Thanks for stopping by to check it out Matt! We appreciate the kind words! Liam
@@TheFandomeClips needed a game of thrones world where Rob doesn’t die so I can sleep easy at night
I think its important to highlight what us so dangerous about Danys army. The most effective strategy against dragons was used by the dornish in aegons invasion. (Not holding castles and having armies fight with guerrila tactics.)
Famously, none can face the Dothraki in an open field, but as indicated by Harrenhal, no-one can hide in a castle against a dragon. And the unsullied are the single best infantry force in the world that round out the weaknesses of the dothraki.
Dany's has a trump card (mostly the dragons) no matter what decision stannis makes, especially given that his 'win condition' is a very much static throne inside a very obvious and important castle.
Wow you split the points like the seasons
I think they would come up with a scorpion equivalent , as it’s shown that the wall has some version of a ballista like that. So when they are researching ways to kill giant creatures they might stumble upon that record. Though the dragons are effective if a full fleet is outfitted with a lot of them along with a designing them to have a large firing angle approach this ballista/scorpion would at the very least keep the dragons away as the ballista out ranges the breath attack. Using a several dragonfire ships to ram into Daniels unprepared/overcrowded fleet would cuase massive damage if not confusion . With most of the fleet scattered several of the dragons dead and wounded there will be nothing left of Danny
I do love the quote from the dance of dragons story. “Dragons can burn city’s, but only armies can capture and hold them”
The most shrewd move Stannis could do is reach out to Robb and Cat the moment he found out Ned was arrested, immediately form a coalition with them supporting his claim with his pledge to rescue Ned and the girls with everything in his power. Working together, they could actually succeed at the move they nearly accomplished separately, with Robb trapping Tywin in the North while Stannis assaults King's Landing and seizes the Iron Throne. Tywin is a capable commander, but Robb and Stannis are both either his equal or even his superior in battle, so the two of them together could defeat him and secure their alliance's dominance in Westeros
Fighting dragons isn't as unfeasible as it sounds. Ballista does exist even before Qyburn improves it (can be seen during Blackwater battle). Stannis is smart enough to realize that those weapons are his best chance at defeating them, since the wildfire, while useful, is useful really just against soldiers and not fire-resistant dragons. He'd probably invest heavily into arming castles and ships with them (although I don't think he would intent to use the fleet to fight dragons, one dragon can easily sink dozens of them so fighting in this manner would be too costly even for Stannis, instead he'd use few ships to fire few shots at dragons and then evade Dany's fleet, basically harrass them until dragons would be gone, and then he might use fleet against Dany's fleet, at worst he would lose few ships in one attack, at best they'd get a lucky shot and kill a dragon at the price of few ships), or he would invest in improving upon the design and then arming castles and ships with it. He has dragon skulls under red keep, and he has a kingdom at his disposal. He has all the conditions required for development of anti-dragon ballista. Even if Qyburn won't do it, I'm sure other maesters can improve ballista enough to achieve the same result if they have few years to do so, and enough funding.
If he meets dany at sea, he could use the green napalm stuff to negate the dragons fire breathing by drawing them into an area where the water is slick with the stuff
I love how in most of these videos it always get the north on your side
Northern forces keeping the Tyrells contained in Highgarden against their will might be difficult. They have the largest army in Westeros by manpower. If their bannermen heard that Highgarden was being besieged and managed to organize they could lift the siege, especially since the relieving Reach forces would probably be under Randyll Tarly (who is an excellent commander).
I'd also suggest that, even with Book Stannis, he's probably a lot more likely to crackdown on the HighSparrow at the behest of Melisandre than the reverse, should the two clash. Stannis specifically swore off the Seven for doing nothing to save his parents, while Mel has been loyal to him. Mel is also someone he personally... likes... lol. Its mentioned he spends notable time in her bed and we also get this line from Jon Snow:
"Lady Melisandre wore no crown, but every man there knew that she was Stannis Baratheon’s real queen, not the homely woman he had left to shiver at Eastwatch-by-the-sea."
He wouldn't endorse the burning of the Sept or anything similar, but if the Sparrows attemped any kind of uprising it would take Mel little time to convince him to smash the ones responsible. Stannis protects those who serve him + the law is the law.
Those are all my points I think. Great video! Still hope Stannis fares better in the books!
I do hope these continue to double in length. I want the Greyjoy one to be an hour and 20 minutes long 😁
Tom was nearly committed to his local asylum after this one 😂 if they keep doubling in length he might snap and go on a killing spree 😂
The point about Stannis and Robb invoking inagery of Ned and Robert is interesting, because at least in ASOIAF Renly is described as looking alot like young Robert.
So it would be interesting to see if Renly's imagery of Robert snd charisma would be worth more or less than Stannis standing alongside the sort of 'folk lore' image of the 'young wolf', whose father supported Stannis claim to the throne.
Both would have different influences that would have them compared to Roberts rebellion. Whichever was more overpowering to the lords or even the people.
Stannis should have offered to make Renly hand of the King in addition to being the heir. That would have assured Renly that Stannis would not just take his army and shove Renly in the closet (no pun intended). It would have screwed Davos but you can always give him Castley Rock after the war is won.
You can promise to marry Stannis' first born son, to Loras first born daughter to secure that alliance, (the Tyrell's are long term planners anyway so that could work).
They wouldn't have to do any of this, but I think it sure up some of the more shaky but needed alliances.
Renly says fuck off and kills Stanis with ease. renly has no reason to listen to such a worthless offer hwne he can just kill Stannis and be king for a lifetime.
stannis would be a braindead idiot to offer that renly step down and become weaker for no reason.
You should do some Renly impersonations. I can imagine him narrating these videos
Even if the Tyrells attacked during the Blackwater they would be doing it alone. With the North on Stannis' side they would block the Lannister army out of the Crownlands. That means only the city Garrison would be fighting. Also even if the Tyrells decide to switch side not all their army will go with them. When Stannis killed Renly he not only got Stormland houses but also Reach Housea that were part of Renly's army. In this scenario Stannis has more of the Stormlands and likely more of the Reach.
If you guys do maybe continue doing this type of thing, what about the Targaryens? How would they have won the Throne? (And I don’t mean Danny killing everyone, like actually wanting a kingdom with citizens)
I wish I could or can one day re-make the series with either Aegon Targaryen or Stannis Baratheon on the iron throne.
And either Ned or Jhon Stark warden of the north.
14:25 book Stannis was 🤏 this close to winning before the entire might of the Tyrell cavalry came to support them
And them made the Baratheon's forces flee
@@not_averge ok then he wasnt close to winning. he was doomed from the start and just didnt know it yet
@@godemperorofmankind3.091 welp he made a frontal assault to the "weakest gate" the one with least reiforced but actually manned
Tho you make a point It's actually inconsisted
He just made a dumb move cause he WAITED TO REORGANISE ON THE WESTERN PART OF THE F-ING CITY
And then Tywin who couldn't do anything with just his troops came like bro he could've continued on the south part why do that if you're not gonna camp
It's just like awaiting enemy reinforcements (he didn't know that tho so that's why he was doomed from the start, he thought Tywin crossed the red fork)
You missed the young grif/ faegon cause. They would have joined dany without tyrions intervention before the battle of fire. So dany would have the golden company and varys network and all the "friends in the reach" the griffons cause has at their back. Also if aegon and the golden company join dany before drogons return, she wont have any dothraki with her, and probably maybe not drogon since hes still in his "emo phase".
fair point the battle with the white walkers would go the same way every time. Doesn't matter how advanced your military is or how big or how well you command it. It does not matter what weapons you have be it dragons, catapults or holy fire lol the homeboy will just res everyone anyways along with your dead and keep it moving. So it will always be he ends up in the garden and gets killed.
Unless somewhere along the way john snow or aria dies then whelp gg.
It would be interesting to see how a Kevan-led House Lannister -as suggested in this timeline - could have altered the way the wider events of ASOIAF play out for that house. While not with the political nouse that Tywin possessed, the down-to-earth smarts of Tyrion or the battlefield heroics of Jamie, he's a steady hand at the Rock, is politically sound (if not brilliant) and wouldn't suffer the self-sabotaguing follies of his niece (Cercei).
All in all, a good alt-timeline. "Ours is the Fury" .... and fury BURNS.
I have a lot to say about this scenario, actually. I think that, upon discovering Dany and her Dragons, Mel would see her not as a threat to Stannis nor as a better candidate for Azor Ahai, but as Nissa Nissa for Stannis's Azor, and their potential child as Lightbringer. I think she would convince Selyse of the necessity of her immolation to help Stannis fulfill his destiny (without telling her she was getting replaced) and her death would leave Stannis single and able to remarry. What better way to reconcile the dynasties and the claims than to have Stannis and Daenerys marry and have kids that are both Baratheon and Targaryen?
Not to mention they would all have potential as dragonriders, both Orys Baratheon (a bastard brother of Aegon, most likely) and Stannis's grandmother Rhaelle (also Dany's grandaunt) were of Valyrian ancestry, and both related to the Targaryens.
I expect both hypothetical spouses to be entirely against the idea, but also Varys and Mel to do their best to convince Dany and the Mannis, respectively, of that being the best way to sit on the throne without bloodshed, without bringing about the animosity of the whole kingdom. Why? Well, the people calling Bobby - and, by extension, Stannis- usurpers wouldn't be happy with the woman they expected to deliver the Targ good old days back to come with a horde of rapist, pillaging horselords, eunuch slaves (try convincing them they're following her of their own volition) and Dragons, which most likely would kill tens of thousands in the process of getting her kingdom; and the ones rallying behind Stannis as the heir of Robert wouldn't be happy with him bringing about an eastern religion or taking their armies north to fight fairy tales. A political marriage between them would reconcile the kingdom for good and close the wounds opened 17 years before. And Stannis is a bit younger than Danny's first husband too, so it makes it a tad less disgusting, lol.
Anyways, with Dany and Stannis allying and destroying the Others together, the Kingdom would be well on its way to prosperity, provided they didn't get killed by Renly in the process, hah. Plus they would complement each other gloriously, she having the love and best interests of the common people in mind and Stannis being the just, harsh but logical and effective ruler and leader Dany has proved quite often she isn't suited to be, either in the show or the books.
Also I doubt Winterfell, and by extension Luwin, ser Rodrik and everyone else, would get destroyed. No Ironborn thought it would be a good idea to try and get Winterfell but Theon. Theon thought he wouldn't have any problems conquering Winterfell, because he knew the place, knew the men that were left defending it and knew how easy it was to defend it. What he didn't knew, poor Ironborn he was (he was more of a greenlander after all that time) was that Ironborn needed to have the sea or a decent water body nearby to flee if things got hairy and to get reinforcements, which every other Captain in the Iron Isles knew. So with no traitor Theon there's no loss of Winterfell, of Luwin nor of Rodrik, there's no Bran going north and we're all the better off.
You glance over it in this video with Varys and Littlefinger, but something that's also important is the Small Council. You address how they WIN the Iron Throne, but the Small Council is important in KEEPING it. Would Stannis keep Renley as Master of Laws? Would he keep Pycelle? Would he make Davos Master of anything? Would those who replace Littlefinger and Varys be more or less loyal? Woukd they reinforce his reign or undermine it?
I was wondering if you can do a video on how Rhanyra could have won the dance of the dragons or Aegon or maybe how Daenyares could have won the game of thrones?
Kinda off topic but can you watch and review HOTD? Or do more videos involving GOT and HOTD? Your page shows that that works for you and those videos have been very successful. I would really appreciate more of your GOT franchise takes.
Its on our list Stefunny! We will keep trying to crack other series (we don't want to just be a GOT channel) but we know what you guys want and won't stop bringing the GOT content! Thanks for watching! Liam
I think one great move would be to declare that any house in the Westerlands and Reach (if the Tyrells side with the Lannisters) will have a chance to gain the whole region and its capital if they fight well, this could lead to an issue with more then one house declaring for Stannis such as for example houses Hightower, Tarly and Caswell all declaring for Stannis and now Stannis has to decide which one of these three houses would gain the seat, maybe just say the one with the most troops at the end gets it or the one who shows the greatest amount of loyalty.
so he'd unnecessarily start a million civil wars just to get a steel chair?
@@godemperorofmankind3.091 no realistically most houses won't bite cause stannis is to far to support, but tywin and mace (olenna) will always have to worry about houses stabbing them in the back mid battle.
I know it’s late but I see him getting the Kevan excuse doing his duty for his family but u can argue he’s to closely related to to Tywin to be spared I’m talking about Tyrion
Really great analysis. I do think it’s likely in this scenario though that Jon and Robb would have beseeched Stannis to negotiate a truce with Daenerys to fight the white walkers, just like Jon did in the show. Whether or not Stannis or Daenerys would go for it is another question, but I think it’s at least possible. Daenerys does go for it in the show, even being willing to have Jamie fight on her team, and Stannis….. could go either way. In my opinion, he can be stubborn to the point of stupidity, but Melisandre would probably be telling him that beating the white walkers is more important than anything else, and he would probably believe what Jon tells him.
Plus, if Stannis refused, I could see Robb telling him to shove it and taking his army north to prioritise fighting the walkers either way