When someone sees inside of your very soul, fears, shame and all that happened in your life ( up to that point) and falls in love with you because of it and inspite of it, that is something most of us long for. That's what makes Reylo a beautiful love story. I mean they haven't even kissed, but only touched hands, but it was like Elizabeth and Darcy moment to me when they declared love for each other.
I just know thought of a parallel between Anakin and Ben, and I'm surprised that I never thought of it before. In Attack of the Clones Anakin loses his hand and becomes a cyborg signalling his transformation into Vader, in TLJ when Kylo reveals his human hand I believe this is foreshadowing Ben Solo's return in Episode 9.
When you realize Plutt was to Rey as Snoke was to Kylo and how Plutt placed the compressor on the falcon to stifle its potential the same way Snoke stifled Kylo's talent and Rey telling the father of Kylo that she bypassed the compressor is foreshadowing her being able to break through Kylo's hard exterior and help him throw off Snoke's oppression to find his full potential and come back to life like the falcon......................bruh.
I find it very ironic how Kylo calls Rey out for constantly seeking father figures in Han and Luke when he's done the exact same thing with Snoke and probably Luke at some point when he was younger.
Yea the look on Ben’s face when he looks at hux when he says he will prepare starkiller is like he doesn’t want any part of it - same with his reaction behind the mask when it’s firing
There were so many of your points that I agree with 100 percent! Leia needs to verbally forgive him, which will give permission to the audience to forgive as well. Changing his ideals on what peace and balance is for the galaxy and denouncing the first order beliefs of fear and control. Selflessly saving Finn and/or Poe who are considered his sworn enemies in the previous films. This will also score points with Rey. I think exile is key if he were to live. But I agree that it will be with Rey and that they can go off into the proverbial sunset together to encounter future adventures.
But then the haters and toxic relationship people will say he's isolating her from her friends and blah blah blah... i really want reylo to happen... but I'm just curious how they are going to get there without him dying, which for the record i don't want him to die as i agree with denise that it'd be a boring way to do it and too much like vader....
There will always be haters. Haha. Besides if it is her choice, they would be forced to bite their tongues. This movie will close the chapter. At some point those people are going to have to move on.
39:54 I found it ironic that Kylo said to that *she* was still holding onto the past, when in reality so is he! That's why he is SO damn conflicted and can't move forward...the boy inside still hurts from neglect and suffers from deception! Now what I really want to see when this trilogy is said & done....is JJ doing a standalone movie with Rey & Ben, have them go on their own adventure, with its own mix of comedy & drama.
I do like the idea of "exile" or more like just leaving the resistance. For one, Ben wanted to create something without the first order, resistance, sith, Jedi etc. And he wanted to do it with Rey. I also think it would kind of come full circle with the anidala parallel. Anakin and padme we're contemplating running away together, but didn't. Padme pleaded with him in episode 3 to run away with him, but he didn't. Just a thought :)
Luke - Yes! I thought straight away with "See you around, kid" that NOW Ben is going to have a problem from which he can neither escape nor can he destroy Luke and that now he has to confront something and create a resolution. :)
I’m of divided thoughts on this video. First of all, I’m a big proponent of the idea that selfless action is impossible and not even desirable. A good person does good to feel good, and doesn’t try to bolster their self image with false feelings of strength by asserting pain and power over others. I think Ben’s redemption needs to come in the form of self acceptance. When he was young he fought to be light and perfect and untouchable. Failing in that impossible goal and feeling like he’d failed his family caused him to rebel and go entirely to the other side - trying to be wholly dark and choke the part of himself his family valued. The only way for him to stop hurting himself and causing him to inflict that pain on those around him is for him to accept that all people have good and bad impulses, noble and ignoble parts and be okay with the fact that he can be 60/40, 80/20, or whatever, and not 100% light or 100% dark. I mean honestly the series message kind of falls apart if Kylo comes back to the light. The point of all this is that light and dark is not good and evil. It is emotion and tranquility, ambition and acceptance, passion and logic, action and inaction. Both are parts of life, and both can be used for good or ill. Yes! The light side can be bad! Being unfeeling, being disconnected from the realities of the world, cutting one’s self off from things that are fundamentally human - these can be damaging. To both the individual and to society. I’m of the opinion that declining to take action to assist another when it costs you little is nearly as bad as inflicting pain itself. Passion, anger, drive - these things can be powerful tools for good. Take the civil rights movement - it contained all those things. Righteous anger. Passion for the cause. A drive, a need to see the goal reached. I don’t even think that denying our darker natures is a truly good thing for a person. All people are capable of spite and hatred and violence. Any one who says differently is selling something. Part of what makes a good person good is the fight against those impulses, not the lack of those impulses. If you don’t feel fear, you aren’t capable of bravery. If you don’t feel greed, you aren’t capable of generosity. If you don’t feel viciousness, you aren’t capable of grace. Ben needs to know that his dark impulses don’t make him sick and broken, they make him human. And that occasional weakness, uncertainty or vulnerability are okay. My dream ‘rendemption’ is seeing Ben decide to live for himself, to not try to be anything other than what he is to please another, and to accept light and dark into himself and become whole - and start doing good in the world. Using the first order to repair some of the damage that has been done, confusing the resistance and the darker parts of the first order alike while winning the hearts and minds of the people. For story purposes, I see a schism happening in the first order. I see Hux or some other similarly insane figure ripping away part of the first order to continue on their mission of domination and subjugation, fighting Ben’s reform half of the order, and the resistance arriving to help bolster them. In the end, I’d like to see Ben step down from power and authority, to choose a life teaching what he and Rey have learned from their pain to bring a new philosophy on the Force to the galaxy and fostering and training Force users from all around, much as you do. I really don’t need him to make some big bloody sacrifice. He’s already risked his life, he’s already stood between the princess and the dragon. Don’t get me wrong I’m very pro some dramatic action sequences in the final movie, but I don’t need to see Ben brutalized to feel like he’s sufficiently punished for killing his father. That undermines Han’s sacrifice, being the catalyst that started to free his son. I need Ben to learn from his mistakes and bad actions, and to make a conscious decision to step away from the power he’s been seeking.
Totally agree with you. He can be redeemed without turning to the light. He will always be partly Kylo Ren, partly dark. All the balance terminology throughout the film's will be pointless if they both turn to the light. "The difference they say is only made right, by the resolving if grey through refined Jedi sight."
This was so wholesome to read. Ben needs to follow Luke in the matter of letting the weight of the world go. When Luke sacrificed himself to the powers of The Emperor, willing to bank on the hope that Vader would return to the light, to me its him letting go. He was afraid of losing Han, Chewie, C3P0, R2, and Leia, losing the war and more importantly losing an attachment to what those names mean to him. To me, he was finally letting the dreams of saving the galaxy, a dream he had since his youth on Tattooine, just standing up for what not only he believed in but hoping ONE PERSON can make a difference. I want Ben, more subtly, repent for his mistakes and make a decision to stop living up to a legacy. The Jedi and the Sith BOTH SIDES never wanted this. The Jedi wished only for your peace while the Sith only hopes for your prosperity. His life is a lie... it's ok to be you.
I would love for IX to address the idea that the dark side may not be inherently bad and that the light can be blinding. TLJ kind of went there with Luke’s disillusion with the Jedi but I’ve never heard of any questioning of the dark side and whether or not it could have a constructive place (disclaimer - I’ve only seen the movies & don't know if other cannon content addresses). Oh, and yes Hayden needs to make an appearance!!!
Great video! Totally agree that Kylo’s redemption will need to be some big act. I am hoping that the redemptive act is something that saves the entire galaxy. If it’s that big, I think almost anyone can forgive him. I agree he already saved Rey so it needs to be more than just that. What I would really like to see is him sacrifice his life but in the end he is brought back to life possibly by Rey using the Force, kind of like how the Daughter brought Ahsoka back to life in Rebels through Anakin and very much like Beauty and the Beast where the beast dies and the Prince is reborn. I so hope that they show young Ben Solo being manipulated by Snoke. I feel like this must be shown so that it helps bring in those fans who still don’t think he suffered. I would think showing a child being preyed upon by a monster like Snoke would go a long way with pulling in the fans that are on the fence as to whether Kylo can be redeemed. I’m already sold on it, but I don’t think everyone is there yet. I also don’t believe that Ben really was the one who killed all the other students at Luke’s academy. As for the ending, I would love to see Ben and Rey go off together to learn more about the Force and eventually teach other Force users (in the Falcon of course!). Ben and Rey would make an awesome team to teach since they have both grappled with both the light and dark sides of the Force. I can see them focusing more on balancing the two sides rather than denying all the dark and any attachments like the Jedi did. Oh and yes to Reylo babies! I am just super excited to see what comes in Episode IX! I have faith it will be awesome! Now can we please get a title or teaser trailer! Lol. I am thinking we won’t until SW Celebration. I will be there so I will be stoked to be one of the first to see it if they wait until then!
I would like if Rey saved him. As in, after he has done something selfless for the greater good with a mindset that no one is going to do anything for him because of it.... and then BAM, Rey saves him when he last expects it. I also think this could be separate from him defeating Rey in a saber fight. I think they can just fit it all in 😂😂😂
*Updated* I have paused the video at the 8 minute mark and I want to take a crack at answering this before I hear what y'all have to say, then compare. This may sound cliché, but Kylo's biggest obstacle is himself and his internalized victimization. He no doubt, by no fault of his own, suffered trauma during his childhood. However, that trauma can only be used to justify so many of his misdeeds. He is self inflicting his own trauma at this point. This is very much in line with many drug addicts' stories. In a never ending attempt to mask pain, they inevitably end up creating the pain for themselves. Kylo's only shot at redemption lies in reclaiming his agency over himself, and to stop trying to change everything but himself. "The past" does not need to die, he needs to accept accountability for his current situation, shoulder as much responsibility in life as possibly, and work to fix himself in the present so that he can have a better future. Killing Han made things worse. Killing Snoke changed nothing. Kylo believes that his chains are being held by others, but he his holding them himself. The most grand gesture he could make sounds simple, but would be revolutionary for him; do the next right thing. Redemption is unlikely to be the result of a single action, so he needs to start doing the right thing now if he is to have a chance. ... Okay, just finished the video. @Lee Green, I gave a good fist pump when I heard you say that "Letting the past die" is bullshit. Lol. I was pretty stoked to hear that I am more or less in full agreement with you and Denise on this one (although I am not as enthusiastic as you two are about Kylo's hair, lol...though I may just be jealous since I can't grow any myself). As happy as I am with our agreements on this video, you know my favorite part to talk about is out disagreements ☺, though there are not many on this one. I'm not sure a grand gesture on Kylo's part is the way to go. If I were Rey, I would be extremely skeptical that a single seemingly grand act could possibly be an attempt at manipulation on Kylo's part. She already learned the hard way in TLJ that while they have their Force bond, they are still susceptible to misreading eachother. A pattern of gradually improving actions on Kylo's part is what will be needed to both facilitate change on his part as well as earn back Rey's trust. Kylo has a pretty well established pattern of back and forth behavior, so some consistency is in order. As far as exile goes, I don't think that's the best path for Kylo (though I loved the no desk job joke). He has caused a lot of damage to the galaxy, and I think redemption for him should include active amends for his actions in the form of working to fix what he has done. I don't think he necessarily needs comeuppance, but riding off into the twin sunset in exile with Rey would not look like atonement to me. Another fantastic video, you two. It's always a highlight when I get the notification. Have a great evening! P.S. - Did you see Alita Battle Angel yet?!?! I'm curious to hear your thoughts!
That's a great post! Absolutely agree with this. Have you ever heard the song The Grudge by Tool? This is essentially what Maynard is talking about (wear the grudge like a crown/desperate to control/unable to forgive/and sinking deeper). I feel like it fits Ben Solo as if it were written for him, and that's how I myself felt about that song for many years. I think that's maybe why I identify with Kylo Ren so much (also his anger issues tbh). To some extent probably most people can identify with some of these things, imo, which is why he's such a relatable character. In IX, this is why I think it's so important for Kylo to reconcile with his past in some way, even if it's symbolic, like having a daydream or a memory of his dad, or even seeing Han in his mind like Thor saw his dad in Ragnarok when he needed to remember who he really was. Kylo has to accept who he really is and accept that the past is part of him so he can finally let go of the grudge and move forward. Right now (TLJ) he's trying to move forward but by pretending he can "kill the past" he's really just dragging it along with him and avoiding taking responsibility because he feels whatever he does is justified. But no one should tell him that, and if they do it's going to undercut the significance of it, imo. He has to realize this himself.
@@rowangreenleaf oh yeah that's a great song for Kylo. His resentments are what's getting the best of him. Resentment is so utterly debilitating. It's driving him to take all of his rage out on others. That was apparent when immediately after killing Snoke, he turned his attention to destroying "the past," the Resistance, the Jedi, the Sith, etc...he did not take even a single moment to self reflect and look inward. He willingly stayed caught up in his resentments, and after ending his codependent relationship with Snoke, he immediately asked Rey to join him in a new codependent relationship (you gave me a lot to think about after saying you thought Rey rejecting him was the right move at that moment in time). Ben has to stop thinking of himself as a victim and accept that he does in fact have agency over himself, but he can only do so once he finds his own role within his resentments and lets them go.
I agree Kylo needs to do something for the greater good, not run away. That said, I think it's all conjecture and speculation at this point. The main takeaway is that Kylo, as a character, needs to recognize and make up for his mistakes, and the second takeaway is that Kylo and Reylo fans are mostly on board with the idea. Unlike what our critics say, we don't want Han's murder to be brushed aside.
@@rowangreenleaf Nicely put. I agree with your emphasis that while other people can encourage and inspire Ben, he has to himself decide to change (something Rey did not understand and it blew up in her face in TLJ). In terms of reconciling with his family, my head cannon wish would be for Lando to somehow be involved as a stand in for Han in some way. (And wishing IX was about 5 hours long!)
Also, I haven't seen Alita yet, but everyone is saying it's wonderful! I might have to check it out. And it's true that just one action might not be convincing enough. Yikes, but it's a two-hour movie... So much to happen, so little time...
No desk job for Reylo! Love that! This was great, thank you! Perhaps going off in to seclusion, or on a great journey of the galaxy to explore the uncharted world would be good for them. 😁
Listened to this on the plane, so now I have had thoughts waiting in my phone for days. - I think Kylo taking down the First Order from the inside, on his own initiative would make a lot of sense. Considering the resistance is down to one ship and like 10 people and there isn't a huge time jump, how else do you defeat the FO. Kind of kill two birds with one stone. - It is important to keep in mind that Leia lost hope in Kylo because just a few days ago he committed patricide. And Leia might have guilt over asking Han to go into that situation. She also might think Kylo tried to kill her, she knows he was there. If she wasn't doubting Ben in her grieving time, that would probably be more weird. - Imagine alltogether Anakin, Luke and Ben, three generations of Skywalkers, how do you not take this opportunity? - If Ben would not be redeemable then TLJ would have ended with Rey feeling afraid of the power Kylo has, but it ends with Rey being dissappointed in him. - Off topic, but have you seen the photos of Adam Driver and Keri Russell ? He looks like the romantic hero in the heads of reylos realised on a photo. You're amazing, I had been waiting for a redemption discussion so thank you!!
I completely agree with everything you guys said, and would add one thing. I think one of Ben’s issues (if not his biggest issue) keeping him on the dark side is unforgiveness. Ben has had some terrible and in his mind unforgivable things happen to him and has a lot of people he needs to forgive before he can come back to the light. This includes forgiving his parents for abandoning him, Luke for trying to murder him in his sleep which left him vulnerable to being ensnared by Snoke, the Resistance personified by Poe for usurping his place in his mother’s life (he’s been in Poe’s mind and I would argue knows Poe is Leia’s replacement son), Rey for abandoning him (who I actually think will be the easiest for him to forgive), and especially himself. Also, Han’s final lesson to him was one of forgiving the unforgivable, and then Luke sacrificed himself in large part to apologies to Ben and give Ben the opportunity to forgive him (which he was not ready to do in TLJ). I’m not sure how they are going to wrap everything up in a 2 hour movie, but I think realistically Ben’s journey back to the light of forgiveness and atonement would be a process and a series of sacrificial acts not just one. Like saving Rey, and then saving the Resistance and Poe from whoever is leading the First Order, forgiving Luke and redoing is Jedi training, and really forgiving his parents (which would likely mean he needs to be a parent himself). As always interested in your further thoughts, and thanks for your awesome work.
Hey! Fancy seeing you here. ^^ Great post as usual. I was talking about this in another post further down, absolutely agree forgiveness/acceptance is key for Ben. I'm also worried about the time, I hope they go for a longer movie because we have a lot to cover! I'm hopeful the magic of cinema might come to the rescue with conveying key things in spite of the time constraint. Like we only really need a flashback or a memory or a daydream of happier times with Ben and his family, and maybe the dice can make an appearance, or maybe a hug with Chewie, etc. Something symbolic that makes clear that he's forgiven and come to terms with his past. And I'm still holding out for an amazing Kylo Ren monologue in IX, something that Adam Driver can knock out of the park, you know? That would satisfy me, JJ. Make it happen!!
SW takes so much of it’s redemptiom aspect from Christian values - in which it is never too late to save your soul so if they say in 9 he’s not redeemable it would definitely Go against the very idea of SW
I’m not someone who ever identified as a writer, but many of the themes you describe are ones I simply couldn’t get out of my head after I watched TLJ, and so I felt utterly compelled to write a fic about it. It’s all I’ve done, and it took over a year of my life to complete and “get right”. (I put that in quotes because, even though I think I’ve finally finished it, I also think I’ve said that before and still went back and edited...) Given that I started it over a year ago, it doesn’t conform to a lot of the leaks that have since come out, but the major elements you describe about redemption, exile, etc, I think are important and I tried really hard to integrate into my story. That said, if you have any interest in reading, I would die for a comment from you as to how well you think I hit the mark. Other than this story being out there, I have no social media presence, so can’t really continue this conversation elsewhere, but I think that these themes have a lot of cultural/social significance and this is part of why this story is so important to me. It’s call “Star Wars: The Resolve Into Gray”, and here’s a direct link: archiveofourown.org/works/14802731/chapters/34248560 I’ve been enjoying your work for ages, so if you should choose to read it, I hope it brings even a fraction of the enjoyment I’ve gotten from you. But I understand if you have better things to do. :)
Lords of the Sith Podcast, I already replied to this, but my iPad is a piece of shit so I think it didn’t go through-replying again, sorry if it’s a duplicate.... anyway, thank you so much! It’s very important to me that I got the characters and their arcs right, so it matters to me to have people read and respond to it who share my thoughts as to what should happen to them. Though I should tell you that, in the first chapter, he gets kicked out of the First Order (which I know you said you wouldn’t be into). You want to see him leave voluntarily because it disagrees with his moral compass. I love that notion, but I want to see him leave early on in the story, and I thought if it was voluntary, it would be too sudden a turn for his character-he needs to grow more before he comes to this moral equivocation. So, in my story, he is kicked out of the First Order, *but* it’s due to *their* objections to how he’s running things. In effect, it’s his moral compass (which they perceive more clearly than he does) that is the grounds for the coup against him. Anyway, I didn’t want you to get too turned off to where I was taking the story before even getting past the first chapter, so I thought an early spoiler was warranted. :) Thanks again for what you do!
Great video, as always, Ladies! I agree with almost everything and cannot wait to film my own video about Episode IX predicitons, which will **de facto** carry a lot of points similar to those you've made here. You two have to be amongst the most articulate SW podcast hosts out there. Always a joy to listen to you.
Do you think that he will be faced with a decision about Rey being captured perhaps by a bounty hunter because he blamed her for Snoke? Maybe Hux sends a bounty hunter to catch Rey and kylo will have to confess to save Rey .
Ooooh, I want to see who's this super duper badass bounty hunter who captures Rey... Lol. No, it's very possible, and it could be the Knights of Ren, for example. It's a neat possibility.
15 minutes in, discussion on the First Order. I can't see a way in which the First Order can be redeemed or changed. For me, the potential for a change that is not the "OMG, my side are the bad guys" is something that was hinted at in the TLJ novelisation - that the former Imperial officers are increasingly at odds with Hux's vision of the First Order. What I can see happening is a defection of the former Imperials with Kylo Ren and an alliance (A New Alliance?) with the Rebellion - that would also lay the foundations for a reconciliation of the Republican and Imperialist traditions in a new galactic state. :)
I like your views and comments. Bravo! I'm on the same Reylo ship partying and having a good time! What I don't understand is why Kylo would practically pled with Rey to "join him", and then later on tell Luke that "I'll destroy her". I really didn't like that part. Maybe he hit his head too hard and can't remember the last conversation he just had with her.
Hey Amanda, I think Kylo Ren was just throwing a hissy fit at that point and talking a load of BS because it's easier to be angry than it is to be sad/hurt. I wouldn't take what he said seriously.
Well, he was on the ground, right? Maybe he DID hit his head. Epix will open with Kylo scratching his head and saying, "Wait a minute. What just happened?" LOL. No, he was just angry and saying nonsense. He'd just been rejected (from his point-of-view).
Oh, silly Kylo Ren! You don't really mean what you say! We al know you're just kidding that you'll destroy her! But, he did also say that she killed Snoke too....well, no one will believe that either! lol
Rey loving Kylo not only helps him to grow but also helps her to grow, each accepting the other through their love for each other' faults and all!!.. We are imperfect beings and it takes both sides to work at reaching balance, it's not a one sided working relationship(imbalance). Both sides working together (balance). Selfish=imbalance-hate, Selfless=balance-love. I'm all for some Reylo babies!!!!
He would have to put his life at risk, like sacrifice his position in the First Order. More specifically (like you also said) he would have to save Finn or Poe or Rose or his mother or someone/anyone in the resistance that means something to Rey. Yes, she could only love him if he abandoned his mask, put everything at stake but not for her but because it is the right thing to do ❤️
What if Poe thinks he’s on a mission to sacrifice himself but Ben messes with his auto pilot and it takes him back home at the last second and Ben is the one who goes on the “suicide mission” not saying he dies or not
How did I not know about y'all yet?!?! Subscribed!! I agree with almost everything y'all are saying and thought on exactly the same kind of things. I think his redemption will be gradual throughout the movie, not instantaneous like Vader (although to be fair I guess Vader showed a bit of vulnerability in the "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" scene) I totally agree, think it'll be the inverse of Anakin's fall throughout ROTS in a lot of ways, a conclusion I independently came to and found out it's a rather popular theory. I think there will be a catalyst moment that finally seals his alignment with the light, just as Anakin had the moment between Mace and Palpatine that sealed his destiny with the dark. But he'll be struggling with it up until then. And dudes!! I totally agree and have thought the same thing regarding the temple fire/slaughter. We don't technically know what went down there, Luke was unconscious at the time. Maybe Kylo was just trying to leave and was attacked by other students, maybe it was an accident and he was just trying to defend himself. Maybe it was Snoke? We don't know but I feel like that could be a cool twist. One way we may differ though is that while I am a firm believer in Reylo I don't think they'll end up together in 9, unfortunately. I think it will have to do with how he's redeemed. I think we'll definitely get a scene where they both acknowledge their feelings for one another. But part of his selfless sacrifice will include not getting the girl, but I still think the movie will end on basically a very happy note despite this. The way I see it going down is that he's presumed dead, maybe not only by the characters but by those of us in the audience too. But maybe just by the characters, perhaps the audience will get a scene of him later.. Anyway , he'll sacrifice himself to save the Galaxy, or so it seems. His love for Rey won't allow him to go to her however as he's hated by most of the Galaxy, maybe Hux frames him in 9 for some heinous act he doesn't actually commit (which is well within the realm of possibility and could potentially align with some leaks). While Rey may know the truth he knows nobody else will accept him, not wanting to jeopardize Rey he'll act as though he's died. Maybe he even closes himself off from the force so she can't sense him? As far as penance goes, this scenario puts him in a really interesting place in X-XII, which we all know is going to eventually happen, let's not kid ourselves. He can assume a new identity as this sort of pirate king/folk hero/Robin Hood type figure. He'll obviously change his name and wear a new mask so as to conceal his identity. But I see him guiding a new generation of force users to Rey for training, helping them on their way with no expectations of reward. In this way he'll not only be helping Rey but paying penance, in a way he'll be exiled but also not at the same time... It would also be cool if he was kinda like a pirate to show that he is indeed a Solo, there could be a cool parallel there. Anyway, by the end of X we the audience learn (shocker) that cool pirate guy with the cool mask was Ben Solo the whole time! Him and Rey will have a heartfelt reunion and we'll all hug and cry and it'll be just a beautiful moment. THEN in XI or XII they FINALLY get married and live happily ever after. I call it the long game theory. Cheers!
I think Ben suffers every single day for what he did to his father, you can see nothing but pain in his eyes in all of TLJ, even Snoke says “the deed split your spirit to the bone” ... and I believe that he refuses to return to the Resistance not simply out of hate for them but because especially after what he did to Han he feels there no hope for him ever becoming Ben Solo again, he’s punishing himself, he even acknowledges his own villainy breaking the rule of “nobody believes there the bad guy”... which is the case for most if not all terrible people, be it in stories or real life, but in Ben’s case it’s : Rey - “Your a monster...” Ben - “....yes I am....” The response even takes Rey by surprise...
When you guys talk about babys I really hope for real reylo babys, but I think that is possible that we get students as simbolic babys....Daisy's short hair would look amazing in an epilogue
It would be interesting if they decided to continue the Skywalker saga without the bloodline. I think it's unlikely because of what the family represents. That said, it's true that family is not always by blood.
He turned back to the light side in the legends comic so why not in the movie. It tends to parallel the original trilogy, Vader had his redemption but died soon after so maybe Kylo will be redeemed and actually live.
At 7 minutes, I thought I should add that with Vader, the choice between love (his son) and (fear) the Emperor was also the last chance he had to make that choice. He'd already dismissed Luke earlier, saying: "It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now." If we accept the premise that Vader knew he was dying, by urging Luke to take *his* place at *his* master's side, he would preserve Luke's life at the expense of his own (this has just occurred to me!). In this way, the throne room battle makes sense - Vader is trying to steer a middle course between his own needs and his master's absolutism. So, when Vader makes that choice, it's literally the last chance because Luke is about to die and having seen his son choose death over submission to the Emperor, he knows Leia would do the same thing. So, he can no longer protect them against his master and chooses to die with the Emperor rather than kill his children. The essence of why Vader remains capable of good (much to his own surprise) is that Vader was never (as Luke correctly concluded) wholly evil (unlike the Emperor). So...(to build on something you ladies have spoken of before), the roots of Vader's redemption began in Padme's womb: "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous." If Vader were to have children, Vader would no longer be completely loyal to the Emperor.
1] I totally think Leia will play a big part in her son's redemption. It would be a reversal of what happened to Anakin. Shmi's death was the first ripple in the pond that led him to the Dark Side. If Leia dies in Episode 9, the circumstances surrounding that could be the same for Kylo, but leading him to the Light. 2] As for the possible sacrifice Kylo could make, he could put himself between the Resistance and another army or ship fleet, and everyone thinks he's dead. As they start to mourn and forgive him, and start coming to terms with what he did for them, they learn he's still alive. He could turn up at their base, extremely beaten up, or he could find a way to send a message (most likely to Rey) and tell them where he is.
I agree with most of what you ladies said here -- except your thoughts on Anakin; Anakin is necessary to the story because he is the central protagonist of BOTH trilogies (OT & PT), it's his story, everything revolves around him and the choices he made, both good and bad. The ST is the continuation of his story, and he needs to play a part in the final chapter of his story. Redemption wouldn't even be conceivable for Ben if it wasn't for the precedent set up in ROTJ. I would find it strange if Ben is redeemed without Anakin's direct involvement. So I'm holding out hope that Anakin and Ben share at least one scene together. It would be a fitting end to Anakin's story if he helps in redeeming Ben Solo, doing what his son did for him. I like the ST, but it doesn't feel like an integral part of the series, which is one of my biggest complaints of the new trilogy and hopefully one that will be rectified in IX.
I was looking at this video again and noticed how much Ben reminds me of Sasuke from Naruto. If anyone has never watched the anime Naruto, here is my spoiler warning because I need to spoil it in order to make my point (the show ended years ago anyways). Sasuke betrayed his village and joined an evil organization because his brother had murdered his entire clan, causing him to suffer immensely. Later we figure out Sasuke’s brother Itachi did this because the village gave him the orders to, but Itachi could not bring himself to kill Sasuke. Sasuke resented his village for this which is why he refused to return and even plotted to destroy the village at one point (until a much larger threat made it necessary that he fight on his village’s side). In short, Sasuke committed many unforgivable crimes. He betrayed his village and friends, tried to kill his teammate Sakura who is now his wife, killed his own brother Itachi, and nearly killed himself along with his best friend Naruto in a battle. However, in the continuation anime, Boruto, Sasuke and Naruto are grown up. While Naruto and his children along with his other friends and their children reside in the village (including Sasuke’s wife Sakura and his daughter Sarada), Sasuke does not. This is because he did all of these horrible things, so he has decided to travel around the world alone as personal repentance. When the village needs help or is in danger, he returns to help, and sometimes to check in on his family. So, do what you will with all that information, haha! I definitely think Ben could do something to repent similarly to what Sasuke chose to do, because switching to the resistance side completely would be quite unlikely, especially after he killed Han. But I feel like Sasuke really does resemble Ben so much.
I only saw your comment now. For some reason YT had it "for review". This is an interesting example and really ties in with the idea of repentance and how past deeds cast a shadow on the character. Interesting.
Wow, a whole lot to think about! 1) First, I believe in Reylo. I believe the Force pair-bonded them, and who's going to disagree with the Force? The Force, very definitely, has plans for them. 2) Adam Driver's lovely locks are alive and have power. I hope he does SNL a third time and they do a skit about it. I may have to Twitter the suggestion to them. 3) Hey, I like your mention about Luke sacrificing himself, and see it as a parallel of what his own father did for him. Sure, Luke distracted Kylo from crushing the last of the Resistance, but on another level he sacrificed himself for Ben's sake, doing the very opposite of the thing he did that drove Ben towards Snoke in the first place. 4a) Any future that Rey and Ben might have separately or together has to first fit into what the background protagonist, the Force, mandates. The Force, by sending Rey to Kylo on the Supremacy, (according to the novelization), directly crowned him the Supreme Leader. I need to know why the Force needs him in this position. What's the Force's endgame? 4b) Also, in the novelization, we see the Force constantly and urgently needling Luke. He ignores the Force's attempts to communicate with him, so that the Force is compelled to invade his dreams with its warning. In the novelization, TLJ, the prologue ends with these words, "Things are about to change. Something's coming." Well, the First Order can't be this "something" that's coming. They were already fully present and have been around for decades, even if in the shadows. 5a) Kylo leaving the First Order to do anything else, (joining the Resistance, going into exile), would be like him letting go the leash of a wild beast, only to let it go on an unstoppable rampage with Hux riding that beast. Much better to work against the First Order from the inside. For him to just to walk away, brought to mind all the good hearted Republican Congressmen, (I'm not Republicanor even political), disheartened and disgusted with the current state of politics, just deciding not to run for another term in office. Sad, also not smart. 5b) Ben saw his Mom grapple with a weak, ineffectual and corrupt Senate. He knows the art of politics through his mother. The Republic refused to help Han save Chewbacca and his people. Perhaps, Ben knows about this and fed into his distaste for the Republic. I'd like to think he has "big boy" reasons for going with the First Order. In keeping with this, people dismiss the Canto Bight sequence because it's not well anchored to the story, just as there's little to explain to the movie audience as to why Leia even formed the Resistance in the first place (she's to a lesser degree like her son, a renegade). But, perhaps Ben needs a lesson from DJ. Both sides are culpable. Can anyone see the Galaxy going back to what it was? If the Jedi Order has got to change, government should too. 6) When I heard Ben tell Han, "The Supreme Leader is wise," it sounded like something one of the Manson girls would say about Charles Manson. I'd like to think that when Ben killed Snoke, it wasn't just for Rey, but for Han. Again, there is Kylo being urged by Snoke to kill someone else he cares about. 7) Don't believe Kylo has to die to become Ben again. If he ends up saving the galaxy, then he can be redeemed, but it has to be a bombastic act, like out of a Marvel movie. 8) The cartoons,"Rebels" and "Resistance" both point to the Skywalkers. In "Rebels," we even meet Obi Wan on Tatooine, and we're definitely going to hear Hux's Hitler speech again on "Resistance." The children from Tehar (heart) who escaped Kylo Ren are siblings who's names are anagrams for Luke and Leia, so I'm intrigued about where Dave Filoni is going. There, I suspect one of the main characters is going to join the First Order out of conviction, so as a one time casual fan, I'm totally intrigued as to where the cartoon will take us through the premiere of Episode IX. 7) Lastly, I've got to talk about, my girl, Rey. Who buried her "people" in the Jakku desert? You can die from alcoholism, but it's unlikely. I believe Unkar Plutt murdered them. Will Rey want a showdown? And how did she get emancipated from him? Here, I can see a bit of parallelism if she decides to seek more answers. Like Kylo/Ben with Snoke, she may want to make him pay. Will Ben intervene, or if not intervene, confront her?
P.s. the main theme throughout seems to be no one is as they seem. Finn not a resistance fighter, Luke not being the hero she expected, Kylo not be 100% the monster she thought he was..... What will that mean in IX? Who else won’t be what we (we being Rey) think they are?
@@gregoryb3793 Oh, man, they could do a horror movie in IX, or a standalone, like Gremlins. Imagine if they're all stuck in Ahch-To.. Imagine if the porgs are the ones who get rid of the ships and throw them in the water... They can't get away. People start dying. Nuns blame force users, force users blame nuns... Sounds amazing.
Herself. She has to find her inner strength, right? TLJ had a theme running through that Rey was looking for a hero elsewhere; in Luke, then in Kylo. She has to realize that she can be the hero. We saw a bit of that at the end of TLJ, but it was subtle.
Lords of the Sith Podcast yes, I like that!! I agree that we saw a bit of that at the end of TLJ..the floating rocks (😉) and her conversation with Leia telling her essentially they have all they need with her. Ok, this literally just brought tears to my eyes to think about. 😁
My ideal ending is for Kylo and Rey to go back to the roots of the force users with the guardians of the whills and use their knowledge to rebuild the jedi order and maybe try to learn from other force users or scholars that aren't sith and jedi, and that's part of Kylo's "exile" (and redemption arc). Though that probably won't be the film ending because it would probably be considered too esoteric for general audiences and they're going to want to focus on actiony stuff with the resistance versus the first order.
Killing Han Solo wasn't a crime.Kylo was defending a military installation skb,from an armed terrorist who there to disable the bases shields in order for the resistance air force to blow it up,which they ended up doing.How many lives lost on the base? 500k? What those lives don't matter,because they were 1st order lives? Rey,chewie,finn,Han,all terrrorists.How much blood is on there hands? Kylo had he not killed Han,could be charged with cowardice & desertion,at the very least dereliction of duty.völk conveniently forget Han Solo was there to sneak into the base to help destroy it,not to pay his son a visit,Kylo just happened to be there at that moment. Everything always depends on who's eyes the story is being told through. As for kylo's redemption ........at some point in epIX I imagine he turns against the 1st order (that he is head of now) and helps defeat it.Rey should be the catalyst for his turn,but how his mother Leia plays into it may have big roll as well.
@@theredbaronlives9889 loolll the last person who wants Han to be avenged is actually Han. He already forgave his son. You will pay the price for your lack of vision.
By the way it’s almost hilarious how there’s people out there who completely accept anakins redemption after everything he did including like u said choking his pregnant wife , and then say Ben is unredeemable lol
Dany, hope you feel better. For me it could go either way listening to Sia tbh; some of her songs can make me teary even if I was ok just before, so my go to for cheering up is 90's pop lol.
@@rowangreenleaf thanks and yes they make me cry sometimes but when ever I listen to music to feel better I do it from whatever emotional place I am in (sad angry ECT) to whatever place I need to be. Like: sad to empowering to happy. If that makes sense 😊
I agree with you, ladies, that Kylo will change by himself. I think that Rey will be a strong motivation for him that she had thousands of reasons to hate, but not follow the path of hatred. Rey for Kylo is already a mystery, because he thought that if Rey finds out the truth about her parents, she will be angry and go to the dark side. Those. for Kylo there are examples that can teach him to be tolerant of others, and not think so radically. Han was not the best father for him, but Han died trying to get his son back - the most he could do for his child. Luke was not the best uncle, but Luke admitted his mistakes and asked Kylo for forgiveness. Rey did not hate her parents, admitting that they had abandoned her. These are examples of how people, being imperfect, are still capable of doing the right things.
Guess what Ben sacrificed his life he has given up everything for her but Rey didn't even shed a tear.😢 From the beginning of tros she tried to KILL HIM. may be that's the reason Rey is like I got what I wanted now let's party.
I think rey and ben will finally bring balance to the force. They will learn to use dark and light side equally. That will finally bring peace to the galaxy. I don't see the Resistance as something totally good and First order as something totally bad. Even Benicio del Toro said it: "Bad guys, good guys, made up words." And he was right. It's all about perspective. From Ben's perspective the Resistance is evil. Palpatine said it: Good is a point of view. I think both Rey and Kylo will leave the resistance and first order and become grey jedi. They will fulfill the destiny Anakin should have but failed. Anidala reversed. Everything comes full circle.
I've seen a theory that he will die sacrificing himself in some way and there will be a resurrection, he would return to being Ben Solo and probably have to live a life in exile but he would be forgiven by Rey and they would have children to carry on the bloodline.
Do they ever say who Han’s father was? In Solo, he basically gives himself a new identity (like Ben with Kylo Ren) and joins the Empire. Can’t help but feel Ben has a Han-ish scheme going on and is about to swindle the whole galaxy in a way that would make Han proud. But it just makes me curious about who Han’s father was. Not a super fan, so there is a lot I don’t know and haven’t taken the time to get into. But why change your name unless it was an easily recognized name?
That's an interesting point. I just wonder whether they really did give Han's backstory a lot of thought in Solo. I mean, if he doesn't know who his family is or where his parents are, or if he wants a new identity, would he just shrug it off?
He will try to force her to be with him and die for her or be willing to die for his mistakes because he realized it ruined everything or he has to see how his own power will bring him down .
Continuing to listen. The whole Reylo thing... eh I'm still not fully on board. Simply because I feel sincerely that from a story perspective, we can't just have a solid message to men that we, as men, can find our own redemption to at the very least a platonic means with a woman. I say this because I feel in our society today men can't JUST be friends with women and vice versa. We have our coworkers and members of clubs/social clicks but nothing just... acknowledging the existence of someone and just being there for them. From a narrative point of view I don't want Kylo to give into some sort of (albiet sadly human) romantic temptation of "oh she's here to fix me" sorta vibe based on romance. But rather he sees her as an equal in spirit. What I admired about Luke Skywalker is that (until he realized he sucked face with his sister) he kept focus on battling his issues internally with external help and guidance from his sister. The scene in Endor was powerful to me because I have a loving sister who challenges me ethically. Even if its resistance to my ideas, her feedback still developes my final choices in life. Idk. Would be nice to see that history repeat itself and drive home a story where for both genders and both sides of the coin can coexist comfortably and desire greatness from the heart without attachment.
So I'm typing this midway thru this, but in regard to him leaving the FO as a result of being overthrown, it could work IF Kylo becomes a benevolent leader and is trying to improve the galaxy, and ignoring the pursuit of the Resistance- Hux gets annoyed and uncovers the truth that Kylo killed Snoke and he gets the Knights of Ren to help him overthrow Kylo- by shear numbers they are able to wound him and then he has to escape or something.... thats the only way I see that angle working... honestly if he's still being a jerk at the onset of 9, I'm not sure if i can still route for Reylo... i feel like he has to start making amends pretty much right away otherwise they won't have enough time in my eyes to redeem him... and for the haters as well..
@Lords of the Sith Podcast Adam Driver has been very insightful in much earlier interviews about playing this character Kylo Ren /Ben Solo like what are his motives and point of view on certain aspects like when he was on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert and Colbert asked him what is it like to play a evil villian and Adam Driver said he never saw him as evil, in Kylo's mind he thinks his actions and decisions make him right.Larry Kasdan said in a comic con event with Mindy Kaling when the group was doing press runs for TFA in which he says you think Kylo is suppose to be this evil genius but that's not what your getting. Going back to how insightful Adam Driver was in earlier interviews about playing Kylo/Ben, now lately you can't get an answer from him except for a little nugget he gave for Vulture last year when he said we are doing something particular with that character and I don't want to give anything away. So could that something have to do with his redemption or could it be Kylo finally being evil and becoming more of an absolutist and having no redemptive arc?
I think we're getting near the end and at this point it's all too spoilery. Everything we've seen lately from Lucasfilm confirms a redemption direction.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast man I hope you guys are right because I hate to get my hopes up and to have them not come to fruition especially if JJ/Lucasfilm had decided to alter the endgame of Kylo/Ben & Rey not getting together at the end unless by Lee's suggestion the Force Ghosts all gather around doing some inadvertent chants to bring ole Ben back lol Have you guys ever came across this article by CBR with this link that I provided below and not too mention the Shallow song by Nerdist :) ? www.cbr.com/star-wars-kylo-ren-rey-couple/
Do you think in 2024 (19 years after Revenge of the Sith) that they will reshoot Darth Vader’s helmet coming off in Return of the Jedi with Hayden Christensen? And update Anakin’s force ghost at the end with an older Hayden?
I believe Disney won't touch the previous movies anymore.People were already upset when Lucas made the changes. It's also an iconic scene (which has already been altered). But it could be interested to have an aged Hayden Christensen.
I would say 2 more things - I think it’s entirely possible Vader was showing Ben the power of the darkside - Vader and Anakin are two different entities even tho they are the same person - JJ even states that Ben worships Vader - not Anakin. And secondly - I don’t think we will be seeing Rey reforge the saber due to the time jump. Unless we get some weird flashback. There’s no way she waits a year + to get that done
Lords of the Sith Podcast hello guys. I noticed something very strange when I googled star wars episode 9. The Google images it shows are all star wars related for theses ST characters but this one image is of Adam Driver holding a child and I know it's him for a fact because that image was from a movie he did called "Hungry Hearts" back in 2014 which was about him playing a father of a child whose mother is intentionally depriving their child of meat related foods because she wants to raise the kid vegan. Anyway it's just really strange of why it's associated with SW images unless Disney/Lucasfilm is trying to tell us something in a cryptic way through Google 🤔😏. See if either of you get those same images when you Google star wars episode 9 and look to the upper right side of your computer or whatever your using and tell me either of you all thoughts if you see it.
It could be the way a photo is tagged or its title. If the photo is in an article about Episode IX, for example, it might show up. It probably doesn't mean anything. That said, let's hope to see a father holding his kids in Star Wars!
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Yeah your right i was probably just reading too much into it. However I do expect to see some parental affection going on somewhere in 9
I don’t think Rey cares that much about him, not as a person. She idealized him as a last hope for the Resistence, she even said as much to Luke “that’s how we win”. The only reason she didn’t kill him in the Throne Room was because she thought that the Force wasn’t done with him, not because of her feelings. She had no problems hitting on his PTSD when she went for the lightsaber. She only craves for the light within him but isn’t willing to understand his darkness and trauma, to accept that he isn’t the Resistence’s hero, that he loathes the Resistence because it was his mom’s favorite son, her priority while droids took care of him. He has every right not to want to join the Resistence, to be resentful. I just hope that episode IX doesn’t show a sad Kylo crawling at the heroine’s feet. He doesn’t have to love her friends and to live according to her expectations. If the ST is about balance and meetings in the middle, then there’s no reason for him to beg for Rey’s forgiveness, always kneeling in his knightly worship to the immaculate and virtuous Rey when he goes against her standards.
I find it interesting that you didn’t think Rey had feelings for him in the throne room scene. Why was she in tears and begging him “please don’t go this way”? How did you read that?
I definitely feel that he has more mature and deeper feelings for her than she does for him. She is drawn to him, definitely, but especially to his potential. He is also sort of trying to improve her, and help her, but it's not a qualifier for him if she doesn't stop doing things like collecting parental figures, etc...he just wants her. He offered to share everything he had at the time with her (co-rulership of the galaxy...it wasn't his for 10 seconds and he's like, here ya go). He's always honest with her. She gave no time for a moment while he was about to make his big move after they killed the praetorian guards ("The fleet..."), She has some maturing to do before IX so that they can end up together...he needs to work on his delivery...but I think we'll get there.
No offense to Poe fans or Denise cause I know she likes him but I’m with Lee I’d be fine if Kylo let Poe parish lol jk jk I ♥️ Oscar I hope Poe survives he’s an ok side character.
LOL, it should be like Final Destination with Poe. He was destined to die in 7 and he'll have to bite it by the end of the trilogy. Just kidding don't kill me, Poe fans! I'm actually fine with him living as well. xD
Dude, at least I don't want him anywhere near the force plot, and I don't really think he'll be there. That said, he's the closest living character to Leia, his arc in TFA is quite similar to Leia's in ANH, so he's in a good position to continue her work and her legacy, and that could be beautiful.
Lords of the Sith Podcast it’s ok if you love Poe. We all love different things about this story♥️ I was just teasing you. I do think if Poe had stayed dead in TFA then Fin would have had a more front and center storyline in TLJ though. I’ll never forgive JJ and Rian for that over sight of the story because I love John Boyega and his story line should have been way better. Keep Poe alive but don’t put him above one of the 3 main characters. It has never made any sense for me and it still doesn’t.
maybe I'm the only reylo who doesn't see reylo babies as endgame. honestly I see them both in exile raising force positive kids they find not as jedi but understanding the force to be more likely than actual biological kids. Also I think the only way Rey can forgive him is if he stops caring just about her. She left him because he was fine with the rebellion dying on the ships, I would like to see him save Poe and Finn and kill whoever kills Leia. But yeah he can't just do it because he wants Rey or loves her. That's still toxic masculinity. Rey is what starts to the change but yeah he has to change for himself not her.
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I don’t have high hopes for Episode 9. JJ is great w casting but he’s not good w creating great stories. His stories r just too shadow & “safe”. I don’t expect him to tell a great love story. That’s not his forte. I don’t even want him to try. It’ll end up like the bridal carry in TFA, obtrusive, so in your face.
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When someone sees inside of your very soul, fears, shame and all that happened in your life ( up to that point) and falls in love with you because of it and inspite of it, that is something most of us long for. That's what makes Reylo a beautiful love story. I mean they haven't even kissed, but only touched hands, but it was like Elizabeth and Darcy moment to me when they declared love for each other.
I just know thought of a parallel between Anakin and Ben, and I'm surprised that I never thought of it before.
In Attack of the Clones Anakin loses his hand and becomes a cyborg signalling his transformation into Vader, in TLJ when Kylo reveals his human hand I believe this is foreshadowing Ben Solo's return in Episode 9.
Absolutely! And that's why we can talk about Reverse Anidala, in these little significant moments that show how their trajectories differ.
Hans sacrifice will be the main catalyst that brings Ben back making the scene in 7 so much more powerful in retrospect
When you realize Plutt was to Rey as Snoke was to Kylo and how Plutt placed the compressor on the falcon to stifle its potential the same way Snoke stifled Kylo's talent and Rey telling the father of Kylo that she bypassed the compressor is foreshadowing her being able to break through Kylo's hard exterior and help him throw off Snoke's oppression to find his full potential and come back to life like the falcon......................bruh.
Yes, it's a neat metaphor.
I find it very ironic how Kylo calls Rey out for constantly seeking father figures in Han and Luke when he's done the exact same thing with Snoke and probably Luke at some point when he was younger.
Yea the look on Ben’s face when he looks at hux when he says he will prepare starkiller is like he doesn’t want any part of it - same with his reaction behind the mask when it’s firing
It’s like he’s watching everything his mom worked for getting destroyed
Kylo saving Finn/Poe would honestly be so iconic and satisfying... it would really make everyone(even the dudebros) love him
There were so many of your points that I agree with 100 percent! Leia needs to verbally forgive him, which will give permission to the audience to forgive as well. Changing his ideals on what peace and balance is for the galaxy and denouncing the first order beliefs of fear and control. Selflessly saving Finn and/or Poe who are considered his sworn enemies in the previous films. This will also score points with Rey. I think exile is key if he were to live. But I agree that it will be with Rey and that they can go off into the proverbial sunset together to encounter future adventures.
But then the haters and toxic relationship people will say he's isolating her from her friends and blah blah blah... i really want reylo to happen... but I'm just curious how they are going to get there without him dying, which for the record i don't want him to die as i agree with denise that it'd be a boring way to do it and too much like vader....
There will always be haters. Haha. Besides if it is her choice, they would be forced to bite their tongues. This movie will close the chapter. At some point those people are going to have to move on.
@@cases3394 Agreed! The haters really aren't going to be happy no matter what..
39:54 I found it ironic that Kylo said to that *she* was still holding onto the past, when in reality so is he! That's why he is SO damn conflicted and can't move forward...the boy inside still hurts from neglect and suffers from deception!
Now what I really want to see when this trilogy is said & done....is JJ doing a standalone movie with Rey & Ben, have them go on their own adventure, with its own mix of comedy & drama.
I have this fantasy that he saves Finn ("Traitor!") then when Finn asks why Kylo didn't kill him, Kylo simply says, "because she wouldn't like it."
I do like the idea of "exile" or more like just leaving the resistance. For one, Ben wanted to create something without the first order, resistance, sith, Jedi etc. And he wanted to do it with Rey. I also think it would kind of come full circle with the anidala parallel. Anakin and padme we're contemplating running away together, but didn't. Padme pleaded with him in episode 3 to run away with him, but he didn't. Just a thought :)
Luke - Yes! I thought straight away with "See you around, kid" that NOW Ben is going to have a problem from which he can neither escape nor can he destroy Luke and that now he has to confront something and create a resolution. :)
Kylo Ren reporting for duty.
Good. Cause we were just mentioning how you have some debts to pay.
I’m of divided thoughts on this video.
First of all, I’m a big proponent of the idea that selfless action is impossible and not even desirable. A good person does good to feel good, and doesn’t try to bolster their self image with false feelings of strength by asserting pain and power over others.
I think Ben’s redemption needs to come in the form of self acceptance. When he was young he fought to be light and perfect and untouchable. Failing in that impossible goal and feeling like he’d failed his family caused him to rebel and go entirely to the other side - trying to be wholly dark and choke the part of himself his family valued.
The only way for him to stop hurting himself and causing him to inflict that pain on those around him is for him to accept that all people have good and bad impulses, noble and ignoble parts and be okay with the fact that he can be 60/40, 80/20, or whatever, and not 100% light or 100% dark.
I mean honestly the series message kind of falls apart if Kylo comes back to the light. The point of all this is that light and dark is not good and evil. It is emotion and tranquility, ambition and acceptance, passion and logic, action and inaction. Both are parts of life, and both can be used for good or ill. Yes! The light side can be bad! Being unfeeling, being disconnected from the realities of the world, cutting one’s self off from things that are fundamentally human - these can be damaging. To both the individual and to society. I’m of the opinion that declining to take action to assist another when it costs you little is nearly as bad as inflicting pain itself. Passion, anger, drive - these things can be powerful tools for good. Take the civil rights movement - it contained all those things. Righteous anger. Passion for the cause. A drive, a need to see the goal reached.
I don’t even think that denying our darker natures is a truly good thing for a person. All people are capable of spite and hatred and violence. Any one who says differently is selling something. Part of what makes a good person good is the fight against those impulses, not the lack of those impulses. If you don’t feel fear, you aren’t capable of bravery. If you don’t feel greed, you aren’t capable of generosity. If you don’t feel viciousness, you aren’t capable of grace. Ben needs to know that his dark impulses don’t make him sick and broken, they make him human. And that occasional weakness, uncertainty or vulnerability are okay.
My dream ‘rendemption’ is seeing Ben decide to live for himself, to not try to be anything other than what he is to please another, and to accept light and dark into himself and become whole - and start doing good in the world. Using the first order to repair some of the damage that has been done, confusing the resistance and the darker parts of the first order alike while winning the hearts and minds of the people.
For story purposes, I see a schism happening in the first order. I see Hux or some other similarly insane figure ripping away part of the first order to continue on their mission of domination and subjugation, fighting Ben’s reform half of the order, and the resistance arriving to help bolster them.
In the end, I’d like to see Ben step down from power and authority, to choose a life teaching what he and Rey have learned from their pain to bring a new philosophy on the Force to the galaxy and fostering and training Force users from all around, much as you do.
I really don’t need him to make some big bloody sacrifice. He’s already risked his life, he’s already stood between the princess and the dragon. Don’t get me wrong I’m very pro some dramatic action sequences in the final movie, but I don’t need to see Ben brutalized to feel like he’s sufficiently punished for killing his father. That undermines Han’s sacrifice, being the catalyst that started to free his son. I need Ben to learn from his mistakes and bad actions, and to make a conscious decision to step away from the power he’s been seeking.
Totally agree with you. He can be redeemed without turning to the light. He will always be partly Kylo Ren, partly dark. All the balance terminology throughout the film's will be pointless if they both turn to the light.
"The difference they say is only made right, by the resolving if grey through refined Jedi sight."
This was so wholesome to read. Ben needs to follow Luke in the matter of letting the weight of the world go. When Luke sacrificed himself to the powers of The Emperor, willing to bank on the hope that Vader would return to the light, to me its him letting go. He was afraid of losing Han, Chewie, C3P0, R2, and Leia, losing the war and more importantly losing an attachment to what those names mean to him. To me, he was finally letting the dreams of saving the galaxy, a dream he had since his youth on Tattooine, just standing up for what not only he believed in but hoping ONE PERSON can make a difference.
I want Ben, more subtly, repent for his mistakes and make a decision to stop living up to a legacy. The Jedi and the Sith BOTH SIDES never wanted this. The Jedi wished only for your peace while the Sith only hopes for your prosperity. His life is a lie... it's ok to be you.
I would love for IX to address the idea that the dark side may not be inherently bad and that the light can be blinding. TLJ kind of went there with Luke’s disillusion with the Jedi but I’ve never heard of any questioning of the dark side and whether or not it could have a constructive place (disclaimer - I’ve only seen the movies & don't know if other cannon content addresses). Oh, and yes Hayden needs to make an appearance!!!
The jedi denied emotion, and that wasn't a good thing. The PT jedi were flawed, and that's something that could be addressed.
Great video! Totally agree that Kylo’s redemption will need to be some big act. I am hoping that the redemptive act is something that saves the entire galaxy. If it’s that big, I think almost anyone can forgive him. I agree he already saved Rey so it needs to be more than just that. What I would really like to see is him sacrifice his life but in the end he is brought back to life possibly by Rey using the Force, kind of like how the Daughter brought Ahsoka back to life in Rebels through Anakin and very much like Beauty and the Beast where the beast dies and the Prince is reborn.
I so hope that they show young Ben Solo being manipulated by Snoke. I feel like this must be shown so that it helps bring in those fans who still don’t think he suffered. I would think showing a child being preyed upon by a monster like Snoke would go a long way with pulling in the fans that are on the fence as to whether Kylo can be redeemed. I’m already sold on it, but I don’t think everyone is there yet. I also don’t believe that Ben really was the one who killed all the other students at Luke’s academy.
As for the ending, I would love to see Ben and Rey go off together to learn more about the Force and eventually teach other Force users (in the Falcon of course!). Ben and Rey would make an awesome team to teach since they have both grappled with both the light and dark sides of the Force. I can see them focusing more on balancing the two sides rather than denying all the dark and any attachments like the Jedi did. Oh and yes to Reylo babies!
I am just super excited to see what comes in Episode IX! I have faith it will be awesome! Now can we please get a title or teaser trailer! Lol. I am thinking we won’t until SW Celebration. I will be there so I will be stoked to be one of the first to see it if they wait until then!
Yes, saving the Galaxy could be really good.
I would like if Rey saved him. As in, after he has done something selfless for the greater good with a mindset that no one is going to do anything for him because of it.... and then BAM, Rey saves him when he last expects it.
I also think this could be separate from him defeating Rey in a saber fight. I think they can just fit it all in 😂😂😂
Always get excited when you guys post! 😊
We're always excited when we post.
*Updated*
I have paused the video at the 8 minute mark and I want to take a crack at answering this before I hear what y'all have to say, then compare.
This may sound cliché, but Kylo's biggest obstacle is himself and his internalized victimization. He no doubt, by no fault of his own, suffered trauma during his childhood. However, that trauma can only be used to justify so many of his misdeeds. He is self inflicting his own trauma at this point. This is very much in line with many drug addicts' stories. In a never ending attempt to mask pain, they inevitably end up creating the pain for themselves. Kylo's only shot at redemption lies in reclaiming his agency over himself, and to stop trying to change everything but himself. "The past" does not need to die, he needs to accept accountability for his current situation, shoulder as much responsibility in life as possibly, and work to fix himself in the present so that he can have a better future.
Killing Han made things worse. Killing Snoke changed nothing. Kylo believes that his chains are being held by others, but he his holding them himself. The most grand gesture he could make sounds simple, but would be revolutionary for him; do the next right thing. Redemption is unlikely to be the result of a single action, so he needs to start doing the right thing now if he is to have a chance.
...
Okay, just finished the video. @Lee Green, I gave a good fist pump when I heard you say that "Letting the past die" is bullshit. Lol. I was pretty stoked to hear that I am more or less in full agreement with you and Denise on this one (although I am not as enthusiastic as you two are about Kylo's hair, lol...though I may just be jealous since I can't grow any myself).
As happy as I am with our agreements on this video, you know my favorite part to talk about is out disagreements ☺, though there are not many on this one.
I'm not sure a grand gesture on Kylo's part is the way to go. If I were Rey, I would be extremely skeptical that a single seemingly grand act could possibly be an attempt at manipulation on Kylo's part. She already learned the hard way in TLJ that while they have their Force bond, they are still susceptible to misreading eachother. A pattern of gradually improving actions on Kylo's part is what will be needed to both facilitate change on his part as well as earn back Rey's trust. Kylo has a pretty well established pattern of back and forth behavior, so some consistency is in order.
As far as exile goes, I don't think that's the best path for Kylo (though I loved the no desk job joke). He has caused a lot of damage to the galaxy, and I think redemption for him should include active amends for his actions in the form of working to fix what he has done. I don't think he necessarily needs comeuppance, but riding off into the twin sunset in exile with Rey would not look like atonement to me.
Another fantastic video, you two. It's always a highlight when I get the notification. Have a great evening!
P.S. - Did you see Alita Battle Angel yet?!?! I'm curious to hear your thoughts!
That's a great post! Absolutely agree with this. Have you ever heard the song The Grudge by Tool? This is essentially what Maynard is talking about (wear the grudge like a crown/desperate to control/unable to forgive/and sinking deeper). I feel like it fits Ben Solo as if it were written for him, and that's how I myself felt about that song for many years. I think that's maybe why I identify with Kylo Ren so much (also his anger issues tbh). To some extent probably most people can identify with some of these things, imo, which is why he's such a relatable character. In IX, this is why I think it's so important for Kylo to reconcile with his past in some way, even if it's symbolic, like having a daydream or a memory of his dad, or even seeing Han in his mind like Thor saw his dad in Ragnarok when he needed to remember who he really was. Kylo has to accept who he really is and accept that the past is part of him so he can finally let go of the grudge and move forward. Right now (TLJ) he's trying to move forward but by pretending he can "kill the past" he's really just dragging it along with him and avoiding taking responsibility because he feels whatever he does is justified. But no one should tell him that, and if they do it's going to undercut the significance of it, imo. He has to realize this himself.
@@rowangreenleaf oh yeah that's a great song for Kylo. His resentments are what's getting the best of him. Resentment is so utterly debilitating. It's driving him to take all of his rage out on others. That was apparent when immediately after killing Snoke, he turned his attention to destroying "the past," the Resistance, the Jedi, the Sith, etc...he did not take even a single moment to self reflect and look inward. He willingly stayed caught up in his resentments, and after ending his codependent relationship with Snoke, he immediately asked Rey to join him in a new codependent relationship (you gave me a lot to think about after saying you thought Rey rejecting him was the right move at that moment in time). Ben has to stop thinking of himself as a victim and accept that he does in fact have agency over himself, but he can only do so once he finds his own role within his resentments and lets them go.
I agree Kylo needs to do something for the greater good, not run away. That said, I think it's all conjecture and speculation at this point. The main takeaway is that Kylo, as a character, needs to recognize and make up for his mistakes, and the second takeaway is that Kylo and Reylo fans are mostly on board with the idea. Unlike what our critics say, we don't want Han's murder to be brushed aside.
@@rowangreenleaf Nicely put. I agree with your emphasis that while other people can encourage and inspire Ben, he has to himself decide to change (something Rey did not understand and it blew up in her face in TLJ).
In terms of reconciling with his family, my head cannon wish would be for Lando to somehow be involved as a stand in for Han in some way. (And wishing IX was about 5 hours long!)
Also, I haven't seen Alita yet, but everyone is saying it's wonderful! I might have to check it out. And it's true that just one action might not be convincing enough. Yikes, but it's a two-hour movie... So much to happen, so little time...
“He could be bald..” NOOO! #keepkylopretty
Oh, c'mom, imagine sexy Baldo Ren...
Lords of the Sith Podcast oh no... I don’t like the image that comes to mind 😂
Thanks ladies! I needed this right now. I can't wait to get more info on episode IX.
No desk job for Reylo! Love that! This was great, thank you! Perhaps going off in to seclusion, or on a great journey of the galaxy to explore the uncharted world would be good for them. 😁
Listened to this on the plane, so now I have had thoughts waiting in my phone for days.
- I think Kylo taking down the First Order from the inside, on his own initiative would make a lot of sense. Considering the resistance is down to one ship and like 10 people and there isn't a huge time jump, how else do you defeat the FO. Kind of kill two birds with one stone.
- It is important to keep in mind that Leia lost hope in Kylo because just a few days ago he committed patricide. And Leia might have guilt over asking Han to go into that situation. She also might think Kylo tried to kill her, she knows he was there. If she wasn't doubting Ben in her grieving time, that would probably be more weird.
- Imagine alltogether Anakin, Luke and Ben, three generations of Skywalkers, how do you not take this opportunity?
- If Ben would not be redeemable then TLJ would have ended with Rey feeling afraid of the power Kylo has, but it ends with Rey being dissappointed in him.
- Off topic, but have you seen the photos of Adam Driver and Keri Russell ? He looks like the romantic hero in the heads of reylos realised on a photo.
You're amazing, I had been waiting for a redemption discussion so thank you!!
Those photos are gorgeous! Nice thoughts, it makes a lot of sense.
Always good discussion in your videos! Redemption and Reylo all the way!
Maybe he can do that knightly thing of kneeling, head bowed, then offering his queen his sword and putting his life in her hands.
I completely agree with everything you guys said, and would add one thing. I think one of Ben’s issues (if not his biggest issue) keeping him on the dark side is unforgiveness.
Ben has had some terrible and in his mind unforgivable things happen to him and has a lot of people he needs to forgive before he can come back to the light. This includes forgiving his parents for abandoning him, Luke for trying to murder him in his sleep which left him vulnerable to being ensnared by Snoke, the Resistance personified by Poe for usurping his place in his mother’s life (he’s been in Poe’s mind and I would argue knows Poe is Leia’s replacement son), Rey for abandoning him (who I actually think will be the easiest for him to forgive), and especially himself.
Also, Han’s final lesson to him was one of forgiving the unforgivable, and then Luke sacrificed himself in large part to apologies to Ben and give Ben the opportunity to forgive him (which he was not ready to do in TLJ).
I’m not sure how they are going to wrap everything up in a 2 hour movie, but I think realistically Ben’s journey back to the light of forgiveness and atonement would be a process and a series of sacrificial acts not just one. Like saving Rey, and then saving the Resistance and Poe from whoever is leading the First Order, forgiving Luke and redoing is Jedi training, and really forgiving his parents (which would likely mean he needs to be a parent himself).
As always interested in your further thoughts, and thanks for your awesome work.
Hey! Fancy seeing you here. ^^
Great post as usual. I was talking about this in another post further down, absolutely agree forgiveness/acceptance is key for Ben. I'm also worried about the time, I hope they go for a longer movie because we have a lot to cover! I'm hopeful the magic of cinema might come to the rescue with conveying key things in spite of the time constraint. Like we only really need a flashback or a memory or a daydream of happier times with Ben and his family, and maybe the dice can make an appearance, or maybe a hug with Chewie, etc. Something symbolic that makes clear that he's forgiven and come to terms with his past. And I'm still holding out for an amazing Kylo Ren monologue in IX, something that Adam Driver can knock out of the park, you know? That would satisfy me, JJ. Make it happen!!
True. And that's why he needs to forgive himself. A series of acts would be really cool. Time is an issue, for sure.
SW takes so much of it’s redemptiom aspect from Christian values - in which it is never too late to save your soul so if they say in 9 he’s not redeemable it would definitely
Go against the very idea of SW
True. Repenting on the death bed works for Christianity. We do hope we get a little more development, though.
I look forward to listening to your podcast whenever I’m stuck at work. 💕 Please, JJ.. We all beg you. Don’t touch Kylo’s hair. 😩
He has to have someone touch it to make it glamorous, though!
I actually hope it’s a little shorter this time
Lords of the Sith Podcast Okay, yes, hands-on is allowed to add to that luscious fullness!
We need a force ghost of grandfather Anakin if only for a warning to not make his mistakes
I’m not someone who ever identified as a writer, but many of the themes you describe are ones I simply couldn’t get out of my head after I watched TLJ, and so I felt utterly compelled to write a fic about it. It’s all I’ve done, and it took over a year of my life to complete and “get right”. (I put that in quotes because, even though I think I’ve finally finished it, I also think I’ve said that before and still went back and edited...) Given that I started it over a year ago, it doesn’t conform to a lot of the leaks that have since come out, but the major elements you describe about redemption, exile, etc, I think are important and I tried really hard to integrate into my story. That said, if you have any interest in reading, I would die for a comment from you as to how well you think I hit the mark. Other than this story being out there, I have no social media presence, so can’t really continue this conversation elsewhere, but I think that these themes have a lot of cultural/social significance and this is part of why this story is so important to me. It’s call “Star Wars: The Resolve Into Gray”, and here’s a direct link: archiveofourown.org/works/14802731/chapters/34248560
I’ve been enjoying your work for ages, so if you should choose to read it, I hope it brings even a fraction of the enjoyment I’ve gotten from you. But I understand if you have better things to do. :)
Writing is awesome! Congratz on your fanfic! Ill pas it on to the fic readers here.
Lords of the Sith Podcast, I already replied to this, but my iPad is a piece of shit so I think it didn’t go through-replying again, sorry if it’s a duplicate.... anyway, thank you so much! It’s very important to me that I got the characters and their arcs right, so it matters to me to have people read and respond to it who share my thoughts as to what should happen to them. Though I should tell you that, in the first chapter, he gets kicked out of the First Order (which I know you said you wouldn’t be into). You want to see him leave voluntarily because it disagrees with his moral compass. I love that notion, but I want to see him leave early on in the story, and I thought if it was voluntary, it would be too sudden a turn for his character-he needs to grow more before he comes to this moral equivocation. So, in my story, he is kicked out of the First Order, *but* it’s due to *their* objections to how he’s running things. In effect, it’s his moral compass (which they perceive more clearly than he does) that is the grounds for the coup against him. Anyway, I didn’t want you to get too turned off to where I was taking the story before even getting past the first chapter, so I thought an early spoiler was warranted. :)
Thanks again for what you do!
Great video, as always, Ladies! I agree with almost everything and cannot wait to film my own video about Episode IX predicitons, which will **de facto** carry a lot of points similar to those you've made here. You two have to be amongst the most articulate SW podcast hosts out there. Always a joy to listen to you.
Nice. And thanks so much!
Do you think that he will be faced with a decision about Rey being captured perhaps by a bounty hunter because he blamed her for Snoke? Maybe Hux sends a bounty hunter to catch Rey and kylo will have to confess to save Rey .
Ooooh, I want to see who's this super duper badass bounty hunter who captures Rey... Lol. No, it's very possible, and it could be the Knights of Ren, for example. It's a neat possibility.
I hear that voice and I scream, “Denise!”
15 minutes in, discussion on the First Order. I can't see a way in which the First Order can be redeemed or changed. For me, the potential for a change that is not the "OMG, my side are the bad guys" is something that was hinted at in the TLJ novelisation - that the former Imperial officers are increasingly at odds with Hux's vision of the First Order. What I can see happening is a defection of the former Imperials with Kylo Ren and an alliance (A New Alliance?) with the Rebellion - that would also lay the foundations for a reconciliation of the Republican and Imperialist traditions in a new galactic state. :)
I like your views and comments. Bravo! I'm on the same Reylo ship partying and having a good time! What I don't understand is why Kylo would practically pled with Rey to "join him", and then later on tell Luke that "I'll destroy her". I really didn't like that part. Maybe he hit his head too hard and can't remember the last conversation he just had with her.
Hey Amanda, I think Kylo Ren was just throwing a hissy fit at that point and talking a load of BS because it's easier to be angry than it is to be sad/hurt. I wouldn't take what he said seriously.
Well, he was on the ground, right? Maybe he DID hit his head. Epix will open with Kylo scratching his head and saying, "Wait a minute. What just happened?" LOL. No, he was just angry and saying nonsense. He'd just been rejected (from his point-of-view).
Oh, silly Kylo Ren! You don't really mean what you say! We al know you're just kidding that you'll destroy her! But, he did also say that she killed Snoke too....well, no one will believe that either! lol
@@amandawarren4228 Oh look, a wild strawman appeared!
Rey loving Kylo not only helps him to grow but also helps her to grow, each accepting the other through their love for each other' faults and all!!.. We are imperfect beings and it takes both sides to work at reaching balance, it's not a one sided working relationship(imbalance). Both sides working together (balance). Selfish=imbalance-hate, Selfless=balance-love. I'm all for some Reylo babies!!!!
I just found your show and I love it! thank you, Lords of the Sith Podcast
He would have to put his life at risk, like sacrifice his position in the First Order. More specifically (like you also said) he would have to save Finn or Poe or Rose or his mother or someone/anyone in the resistance that means something to Rey. Yes, she could only love him if he abandoned his mask, put everything at stake but not for her but because it is the right thing to do ❤️
"Go to an idyllic place" - I've wondered about Takodana.
What if Poe thinks he’s on a mission to sacrifice himself but Ben messes with his auto pilot and it takes him back home at the last second and Ben is the one who goes on the “suicide mission” not saying he dies or not
That could be.
Always great content and discussion!
Best way to start the day ♡♡
Yay!
Fantastic video!
Thank you girls, as alway great video :D
Newest theory? I’ve been reading about that forever.
That would put a spin on things.
LMAO I love it. xD
How did I not know about y'all yet?!?! Subscribed!!
I agree with almost everything y'all are saying and thought on exactly the same kind of things. I think his redemption will be gradual throughout the movie, not instantaneous like Vader (although to be fair I guess Vader showed a bit of vulnerability in the "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" scene) I totally agree, think it'll be the inverse of Anakin's fall throughout ROTS in a lot of ways, a conclusion I independently came to and found out it's a rather popular theory.
I think there will be a catalyst moment that finally seals his alignment with the light, just as Anakin had the moment between Mace and Palpatine that sealed his destiny with the dark. But he'll be struggling with it up until then.
And dudes!! I totally agree and have thought the same thing regarding the temple fire/slaughter. We don't technically know what went down there, Luke was unconscious at the time. Maybe Kylo was just trying to leave and was attacked by other students, maybe it was an accident and he was just trying to defend himself. Maybe it was Snoke? We don't know but I feel like that could be a cool twist.
One way we may differ though is that while I am a firm believer in Reylo I don't think they'll end up together in 9, unfortunately. I think it will have to do with how he's redeemed. I think we'll definitely get a scene where they both acknowledge their feelings for one another. But part of his selfless sacrifice will include not getting the girl, but I still think the movie will end on basically a very happy note despite this.
The way I see it going down is that he's presumed dead, maybe not only by the characters but by those of us in the audience too. But maybe just by the characters, perhaps the audience will get a scene of him later.. Anyway , he'll sacrifice himself to save the Galaxy, or so it seems. His love for Rey won't allow him to go to her however as he's hated by most of the Galaxy, maybe Hux frames him in 9 for some heinous act he doesn't actually commit (which is well within the realm of possibility and could potentially align with some leaks). While Rey may know the truth he knows nobody else will accept him, not wanting to jeopardize Rey he'll act as though he's died. Maybe he even closes himself off from the force so she can't sense him?
As far as penance goes, this scenario puts him in a really interesting place in X-XII, which we all know is going to eventually happen, let's not kid ourselves. He can assume a new identity as this sort of pirate king/folk hero/Robin Hood type figure. He'll obviously change his name and wear a new mask so as to conceal his identity. But I see him guiding a new generation of force users to Rey for training, helping them on their way with no expectations of reward. In this way he'll not only be helping Rey but paying penance, in a way he'll be exiled but also not at the same time... It would also be cool if he was kinda like a pirate to show that he is indeed a Solo, there could be a cool parallel there.
Anyway, by the end of X we the audience learn (shocker) that cool pirate guy with the cool mask was Ben Solo the whole time! Him and Rey will have a heartfelt reunion and we'll all hug and cry and it'll be just a beautiful moment. THEN in XI or XII they FINALLY get married and live happily ever after. I call it the long game theory.
Cheers!
I think Ben suffers every single day for what he did to his father, you can see nothing but pain in his eyes in all of TLJ, even Snoke says “the deed split your spirit to the bone” ... and I believe that he refuses to return to the Resistance not simply out of hate for them but because especially after what he did to Han he feels there no hope for him ever becoming Ben Solo again, he’s punishing himself, he even acknowledges his own villainy breaking the rule of “nobody believes there the bad guy”... which is the case for most if not all terrible people, be it in stories or real life, but in Ben’s case it’s :
Rey - “Your a monster...”
Ben - “....yes I am....”
The response even takes Rey by surprise...
Something that i think could happen is that Ben would save the fo and the resistance from destroying each other??
When you guys talk about babys I really hope for real reylo babys, but I think that is possible that we get students as simbolic babys....Daisy's short hair would look amazing in an epilogue
It would be interesting if they decided to continue the Skywalker saga without the bloodline. I think it's unlikely because of what the family represents. That said, it's true that family is not always by blood.
He turned back to the light side in the legends comic so why not in the movie. It tends to parallel the original trilogy, Vader had his redemption but died soon after so maybe Kylo will be redeemed and actually live.
At 7 minutes, I thought I should add that with Vader, the choice between love (his son) and (fear) the Emperor was also the last chance he had to make that choice. He'd already dismissed Luke earlier, saying:
"It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature
of the Force. He is
your master now."
If we accept the premise that Vader knew he was dying, by urging Luke to take *his* place at *his* master's side, he would preserve Luke's life at the expense of his own (this has just occurred to me!). In this way, the throne room battle makes sense - Vader is trying to steer a middle course between his own needs and his master's absolutism.
So, when Vader makes that choice, it's literally the last chance because Luke is about to die and having seen his son choose death over submission to the Emperor, he knows Leia would do the same thing. So, he can no longer protect them against his master and chooses to die with the Emperor rather than kill his children.
The essence of why Vader remains capable of good (much to his own surprise) is that Vader was never (as Luke correctly concluded) wholly evil (unlike the Emperor). So...(to build on something you ladies have spoken of before), the roots of Vader's redemption began in Padme's womb:
"To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your
father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were
to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the
reason why your sister remains safely anonymous."
If Vader were to have children, Vader would no longer be completely loyal to the Emperor.
1] I totally think Leia will play a big part in her son's redemption. It would be a reversal of what happened to Anakin. Shmi's death was the first ripple in the pond that led him to the Dark Side. If Leia dies in Episode 9, the circumstances surrounding that could be the same for Kylo, but leading him to the Light.
2] As for the possible sacrifice Kylo could make, he could put himself between the Resistance and another army or ship fleet, and everyone thinks he's dead. As they start to mourn and forgive him, and start coming to terms with what he did for them, they learn he's still alive. He could turn up at their base, extremely beaten up, or he could find a way to send a message (most likely to Rey) and tell them where he is.
It works for Reverse Anakin, right?
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Exactly.
What I'm afraid of is the possibility of a final battle between Kylo and Rey and one of them end up being killed!
They wouldn't kill each other. If Kylo or Rey dies, it will be fighting another enemy.
Hello there
I can only hear that in obi-Wans voice 😂
General Kenobi
I agree with most of what you ladies said here -- except your thoughts on Anakin; Anakin is necessary to the story because he is the central protagonist of BOTH trilogies (OT & PT), it's his story, everything revolves around him and the choices he made, both good and bad. The ST is the continuation of his story, and he needs to play a part in the final chapter of his story. Redemption wouldn't even be conceivable for Ben if it wasn't for the precedent set up in ROTJ. I would find it strange if Ben is redeemed without Anakin's direct involvement. So I'm holding out hope that Anakin and Ben share at least one scene together. It would be a fitting end to Anakin's story if he helps in redeeming Ben Solo, doing what his son did for him. I like the ST, but it doesn't feel like an integral part of the series, which is one of my biggest complaints of the new trilogy and hopefully one that will be rectified in IX.
Oh, but we do think it's important that he finds a resolution with his ideals about Vader. Hopefully we'll see Anakin!
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Kylo already made up for killing his dad by killing Snoke and saving Rey.
I have to admit, I really like the idea of "let the past die", but Kylo sure as heck isn't actually doing it.
I was looking at this video again and noticed how much Ben reminds me of Sasuke from Naruto. If anyone has never watched the anime Naruto, here is my spoiler warning because I need to spoil it in order to make my point (the show ended years ago anyways).
Sasuke betrayed his village and joined an evil organization because his brother had murdered his entire clan, causing him to suffer immensely. Later we figure out Sasuke’s brother Itachi did this because the village gave him the orders to, but Itachi could not bring himself to kill Sasuke. Sasuke resented his village for this which is why he refused to return and even plotted to destroy the village at one point (until a much larger threat made it necessary that he fight on his village’s side).
In short, Sasuke committed many unforgivable crimes. He betrayed his village and friends, tried to kill his teammate Sakura who is now his wife, killed his own brother Itachi, and nearly killed himself along with his best friend Naruto in a battle.
However, in the continuation anime, Boruto, Sasuke and Naruto are grown up. While Naruto and his children along with his other friends and their children reside in the village (including Sasuke’s wife Sakura and his daughter Sarada), Sasuke does not. This is because he did all of these horrible things, so he has decided to travel around the world alone as personal repentance. When the village needs help or is in danger, he returns to help, and sometimes to check in on his family.
So, do what you will with all that information, haha! I definitely think Ben could do something to repent similarly to what Sasuke chose to do, because switching to the resistance side completely would be quite unlikely, especially after he killed Han. But I feel like Sasuke really does resemble Ben so much.
I only saw your comment now. For some reason YT had it "for review". This is an interesting example and really ties in with the idea of repentance and how past deeds cast a shadow on the character. Interesting.
Wow, a whole lot to think about!
1) First, I believe in Reylo. I believe the Force pair-bonded them, and who's going to disagree with the Force? The Force, very definitely, has plans for them.
2) Adam Driver's lovely locks are alive and have power. I hope he does SNL a third time and they do a skit about it. I may have to Twitter the suggestion to
them.
3) Hey, I like your mention about Luke sacrificing himself, and see it as a parallel of what his own father did for him. Sure, Luke distracted Kylo from crushing the last of the Resistance, but on another level he sacrificed himself for Ben's sake, doing the very opposite of the thing he did that drove Ben towards Snoke in the first place.
4a) Any future that Rey and Ben might have separately or together has to first fit into what the background protagonist, the Force, mandates. The Force, by sending Rey to Kylo on the Supremacy, (according to the novelization), directly crowned him the Supreme Leader. I need to know why the Force needs him in this position. What's the Force's endgame?
4b) Also, in the novelization, we see the Force constantly and urgently needling Luke. He ignores the Force's attempts to communicate with him, so that the Force is compelled to invade his dreams with its warning. In the novelization, TLJ, the prologue ends with these words, "Things are about to change. Something's coming." Well, the First Order can't be this "something" that's coming. They were already fully present and have been around for decades, even if in the shadows.
5a) Kylo leaving the First Order to do anything else, (joining the Resistance, going into exile), would be like him letting go the leash of a wild beast, only to let it go on an unstoppable rampage with Hux riding that beast. Much better to work against the First Order from the inside. For him to just to walk away, brought to mind all the good hearted Republican Congressmen, (I'm not Republicanor even political), disheartened and disgusted with the current state of politics, just deciding not to run for another term in office. Sad, also not smart.
5b) Ben saw his Mom grapple with a weak, ineffectual and corrupt Senate. He knows the art of politics through his mother. The Republic refused to help Han save Chewbacca and his people. Perhaps, Ben knows about this and fed into his distaste for the Republic. I'd like to think he has "big boy" reasons for going with the First Order. In keeping with this, people dismiss the Canto Bight sequence because it's not well anchored to the story, just as there's little to explain to the movie audience as to why Leia even formed the Resistance in the first place (she's to a lesser degree like her son, a renegade). But, perhaps Ben needs a lesson from DJ. Both sides are culpable. Can anyone see the Galaxy going back to what it was? If the Jedi Order has got to change, government should too.
6) When I heard Ben tell Han, "The Supreme Leader is wise," it sounded like something one of the Manson girls would say about Charles Manson. I'd like to think that when Ben killed Snoke, it wasn't just for Rey, but for Han. Again, there is Kylo being urged by Snoke to kill someone else he cares about.
7) Don't believe Kylo has to die to become Ben again. If he ends up saving the galaxy, then he can be redeemed, but it has to be a bombastic act, like out of a Marvel movie.
8) The cartoons,"Rebels" and "Resistance" both point to the Skywalkers. In "Rebels," we even meet Obi Wan on Tatooine, and we're definitely going to hear Hux's Hitler speech again on "Resistance." The children from Tehar (heart) who escaped Kylo Ren are siblings who's names are anagrams for Luke and Leia, so I'm intrigued about where Dave Filoni is going. There, I suspect one of the main characters is going to join the First Order out of conviction, so as a one time casual fan, I'm totally intrigued as to where the cartoon will take us through the premiere of Episode IX.
7) Lastly, I've got to talk about, my girl, Rey. Who buried her "people" in the Jakku desert? You can die from alcoholism, but it's unlikely. I believe Unkar Plutt murdered them. Will Rey want a showdown? And how did she get emancipated from him? Here, I can see a bit of parallelism if she decides to seek more answers. Like Kylo/Ben with Snoke, she may want to make him pay. Will Ben intervene, or if not intervene, confront her?
Lots of neat ideas! On your last comment, we do need some kind of showdown or resolution for Rey in relation to her parents. Your idea could be cool.
They kept Yoda (Frank Oz) under wraps in The Last Jedi. No one knew that Yoda was in the movie until Frank Oz showed up at the premiere, apparently.
And that's why there's hope for Hayden Christensen.
P.s. the main theme throughout seems to be no one is as they seem. Finn not a resistance fighter, Luke not being the hero she expected, Kylo not be 100% the monster she thought he was..... What will that mean in IX? Who else won’t be what we (we being Rey) think they are?
I'm pretty suspicious of the Porgs. They look cute...but I think they're up to no good.
@@gregoryb3793 Oh, man, they could do a horror movie in IX, or a standalone, like Gremlins. Imagine if they're all stuck in Ahch-To.. Imagine if the porgs are the ones who get rid of the ships and throw them in the water... They can't get away. People start dying. Nuns blame force users, force users blame nuns... Sounds amazing.
Herself. She has to find her inner strength, right? TLJ had a theme running through that Rey was looking for a hero elsewhere; in Luke, then in Kylo. She has to realize that she can be the hero. We saw a bit of that at the end of TLJ, but it was subtle.
Lords of the Sith Podcast yes, I like that!! I agree that we saw a bit of that at the end of TLJ..the floating rocks (😉) and her conversation with Leia telling her essentially they have all they need with her. Ok, this literally just brought tears to my eyes to think about. 😁
Gregory B ha! Too funny!! They do seem to have their own agenda, those birds.
My ideal ending is for Kylo and Rey to go back to the roots of the force users with the guardians of the whills and use their knowledge to rebuild the jedi order and maybe try to learn from other force users or scholars that aren't sith and jedi, and that's part of Kylo's "exile" (and redemption arc). Though that probably won't be the film ending because it would probably be considered too esoteric for general audiences and they're going to want to focus on actiony stuff with the resistance versus the first order.
Killing Han Solo wasn't a crime.Kylo was defending a military installation skb,from an armed terrorist who there to disable the bases shields in order for the resistance air force to blow it up,which they ended up doing.How many lives lost on the base?
500k? What those lives don't matter,because they were 1st order lives?
Rey,chewie,finn,Han,all terrrorists.How much blood is on there hands?
Kylo had he not killed Han,could be charged with cowardice & desertion,at the very least dereliction of duty.völk conveniently forget Han Solo was there to sneak into the base to help destroy it,not to pay his son a visit,Kylo just happened to be there at that moment.
Everything always depends on who's eyes the story is being told through.
As for kylo's redemption ........at some point in epIX I imagine he turns against the 1st order (that he is head of now) and helps defeat it.Rey should be the catalyst for his turn,but how his mother Leia plays into it may have big roll as well.
Thanks, we're speaking in moral terms. Killing your dad = crime.
Lee Green But isn’t there a deeper layer? As in Han sacrificed his life for his son?
@@rowangreenleaf
Kylo dies in epIX is almost 100% certain so ....you will be overjoyed with glee.
Han avenged.
@@theredbaronlives9889 loolll the last person who wants Han to be avenged is actually Han. He already forgave his son. You will pay the price for your lack of vision.
@@rowangreenleaf
Quoting papaltine,nice
Your channel is very good btw.
Kylo will not become a Jedi again. Rey and Kylo as Emperor and Empress, will create a new gray force order.
By the way it’s almost hilarious how there’s people out there who completely accept anakins redemption after everything he did including like u said choking his pregnant wife , and then say Ben is unredeemable lol
Hey beautifuls😘 sorry for being late but I was in a bad emotional place and had listen to some Sia songs😖 but am here now😊
Hope you're feeling better.
Dany, hope you feel better. For me it could go either way listening to Sia tbh; some of her songs can make me teary even if I was ok just before, so my go to for cheering up is 90's pop lol.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast thank you and kept up the good work😘
@@rowangreenleaf thanks and yes they make me cry sometimes but when ever I listen to music to feel better I do it from whatever emotional place I am in (sad angry ECT) to whatever place I need to be.
Like: sad to empowering to happy.
If that makes sense 😊
Ha, and now we know that Anakin WILL appear! 🙌🏼
I agree with you, ladies, that Kylo will change by himself. I think that Rey will be a strong motivation for him that she had thousands of reasons to hate, but not follow the path of hatred. Rey for Kylo is already a mystery, because he thought that if Rey finds out the truth about her parents, she will be angry and go to the dark side.
Those. for Kylo there are examples that can teach him to be tolerant of others, and not think so radically. Han was not the best father for him, but Han died trying to get his son back - the most he could do for his child. Luke was not the best uncle, but Luke admitted his mistakes and asked Kylo for forgiveness. Rey did not hate her parents, admitting that they had abandoned her. These are examples of how people, being imperfect, are still capable of doing the right things.
A little thought: Why doesn't Rey have a last name? Bc she will get one, *cough* Rey Solo.
Anyway, great video! 👏😁
Rey Solo is canon.
Guess what Ben sacrificed his life he has given up everything for her but Rey didn't even shed a tear.😢
From the beginning of tros she tried to KILL HIM. may be that's the reason Rey is like I got what I wanted now let's party.
It's sad how the writers made no effort in trying to make Kylo redeem himself.
As to Rey, it's just baffling.
I think rey and ben will finally bring balance to the force. They will learn to use dark and light side equally. That will finally bring peace to the galaxy. I don't see the Resistance as something totally good and First order as something totally bad. Even Benicio del Toro said it: "Bad guys, good guys, made up words." And he was right. It's all about perspective. From Ben's perspective the Resistance is evil. Palpatine said it: Good is a point of view.
I think both Rey and Kylo will leave the resistance and first order and become grey jedi.
They will fulfill the destiny Anakin should have but failed. Anidala reversed. Everything comes full circle.
I've seen a theory that he will die sacrificing himself in some way and there will be a resurrection, he would return to being Ben Solo and probably have to live a life in exile but he would be forgiven by Rey and they would have children to carry on the bloodline.
Yes, we saw it. Neat, right?
Do they ever say who Han’s father was? In Solo, he basically gives himself a new identity (like Ben with Kylo Ren) and joins the Empire. Can’t help but feel Ben has a Han-ish scheme going on and is about to swindle the whole galaxy in a way that would make Han proud. But it just makes me curious about who Han’s father was. Not a super fan, so there is a lot I don’t know and haven’t taken the time to get into. But why change your name unless it was an easily recognized name?
That's an interesting point. I just wonder whether they really did give Han's backstory a lot of thought in Solo. I mean, if he doesn't know who his family is or where his parents are, or if he wants a new identity, would he just shrug it off?
He will try to force her to be with him and die for her or be willing to die for his mistakes because he realized it ruined everything or he has to see how his own power will bring him down .
Yeah, something big has to happen.
He'd have to have an arch like Zuko's from Avatar.
Yes, and his downfall at the end of act 2 would be similar to Zuko's. It could have been brilliant...
Are you guys planning on doing any videos for Alita or Captain Marvel?
Maybe. We still have a lot of SW content and Celebration is coming, though.
Continuing to listen. The whole Reylo thing... eh I'm still not fully on board. Simply because I feel sincerely that from a story perspective, we can't just have a solid message to men that we, as men, can find our own redemption to at the very least a platonic means with a woman. I say this because I feel in our society today men can't JUST be friends with women and vice versa. We have our coworkers and members of clubs/social clicks but nothing just... acknowledging the existence of someone and just being there for them.
From a narrative point of view I don't want Kylo to give into some sort of (albiet sadly human) romantic temptation of "oh she's here to fix me" sorta vibe based on romance. But rather he sees her as an equal in spirit. What I admired about Luke Skywalker is that (until he realized he sucked face with his sister) he kept focus on battling his issues internally with external help and guidance from his sister. The scene in Endor was powerful to me because I have a loving sister who challenges me ethically. Even if its resistance to my ideas, her feedback still developes my final choices in life. Idk. Would be nice to see that history repeat itself and drive home a story where for both genders and both sides of the coin can coexist comfortably and desire greatness from the heart without attachment.
Hopefully he won't be saved though, regardless of Reylo or not. He has to find his own salvation, and we agree.
😊
Hey!
Hello there! 🌷
So I'm typing this midway thru this, but in regard to him leaving the FO as a result of being overthrown, it could work IF Kylo becomes a benevolent leader and is trying to improve the galaxy, and ignoring the pursuit of the Resistance- Hux gets annoyed and uncovers the truth that Kylo killed Snoke and he gets the Knights of Ren to help him overthrow Kylo- by shear numbers they are able to wound him and then he has to escape or something.... thats the only way I see that angle working... honestly if he's still being a jerk at the onset of 9, I'm not sure if i can still route for Reylo... i feel like he has to start making amends pretty much right away otherwise they won't have enough time in my eyes to redeem him... and for the haters as well..
Yes, that would work because it would not be just convenient, right?
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Yes exactly!!!! Love your content btw!!
@Lords of the Sith Podcast Adam Driver has been very insightful in much earlier interviews about playing this character Kylo Ren /Ben Solo like what are his motives and point of view on certain aspects like when he was on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert and Colbert asked him what is it like to play a evil villian and Adam Driver said he never saw him as evil, in Kylo's mind he thinks his actions and decisions make him right.Larry Kasdan said in a comic con event with Mindy Kaling when the group was doing press runs for TFA in which he says you think Kylo is suppose to be this evil genius but that's not what your getting. Going back to how insightful Adam Driver was in earlier interviews about playing Kylo/Ben, now lately you can't get an answer from him except for a little nugget he gave for Vulture last year when he said we are doing something particular with that character and I don't want to give anything away. So could that something have to do with his redemption or could it be Kylo finally being evil and becoming more of an absolutist and having no redemptive arc?
I think we're getting near the end and at this point it's all too spoilery. Everything we've seen lately from Lucasfilm confirms a redemption direction.
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast man I hope you guys are right because I hate to get my hopes up and to have them not come to fruition especially if JJ/Lucasfilm had decided to alter the endgame of Kylo/Ben & Rey not getting together at the end unless by Lee's suggestion the Force Ghosts all gather around doing some inadvertent chants to bring ole Ben back lol
Have you guys ever came across this article by CBR with this link that I provided below and not too mention the Shallow song by Nerdist :) ?
www.cbr.com/star-wars-kylo-ren-rey-couple/
Do you think in 2024 (19 years after Revenge of the Sith) that they will reshoot Darth Vader’s helmet coming off in Return of the Jedi with Hayden Christensen? And update Anakin’s force ghost at the end with an older Hayden?
I'm up for anything that involves more Hayden tbh
I believe Disney won't touch the previous movies anymore.People were already upset when Lucas made the changes. It's also an iconic scene (which has already been altered). But it could be interested to have an aged Hayden Christensen.
I would say 2 more things - I think it’s entirely possible Vader was showing Ben the power of the darkside
- Vader and Anakin are two different entities even tho they are the same person - JJ even states that Ben worships Vader - not Anakin.
And secondly - I don’t think we will be seeing Rey reforge the saber due to the time jump. Unless we get some weird flashback. There’s no way she waits a year + to get that done
Lords of the Sith Podcast hello guys. I noticed something very strange when I googled star wars episode 9. The Google images it shows are all star wars related for theses ST characters but this one image is of Adam Driver holding a child and I know it's him for a fact because that image was from a movie he did called "Hungry Hearts" back in 2014 which was about him playing a father of a child whose mother is intentionally depriving their child of meat related foods because she wants to raise the kid vegan. Anyway it's just really strange of why it's associated with SW images unless Disney/Lucasfilm is trying to tell us something in a cryptic way through Google 🤔😏. See if either of you get those same images when you Google star wars episode 9 and look to the upper right side of your computer or whatever your using and tell me either of you all thoughts if you see it.
It could be the way a photo is tagged or its title. If the photo is in an article about Episode IX, for example, it might show up. It probably doesn't mean anything. That said, let's hope to see a father holding his kids in Star Wars!
@@LordsoftheSithPodcast Yeah your right i was probably just reading too much into it. However I do expect to see some parental affection going on somewhere in 9
I don’t think Rey cares that much about him, not as a person. She idealized him as a last hope for the Resistence, she even said as much to Luke “that’s how we win”. The only reason she didn’t kill him in the Throne Room was because she thought that the Force wasn’t done with him, not because of her feelings. She had no problems hitting on his PTSD when she went for the lightsaber. She only craves for the light within him but isn’t willing to understand his darkness and trauma, to accept that he isn’t the Resistence’s hero, that he loathes the Resistence because it was his mom’s favorite son, her priority while droids took care of him. He has every right not to want to join the Resistence, to be resentful. I just hope that episode IX doesn’t show a sad Kylo crawling at the heroine’s feet. He doesn’t have to love her friends and to live according to her expectations. If the ST is about balance and meetings in the middle, then there’s no reason for him to beg for Rey’s forgiveness, always kneeling in his knightly worship to the immaculate and virtuous Rey when he goes against her standards.
But maybe they'll understand each other's traumas... We'll have to see.
I find it interesting that you didn’t think Rey had feelings for him in the throne room scene. Why was she in tears and begging him “please don’t go this way”? How did you read that?
I definitely feel that he has more mature and deeper feelings for her than she does for him. She is drawn to him, definitely, but especially to his potential.
He is also sort of trying to improve her, and help her, but it's not a qualifier for him if she doesn't stop doing things like collecting parental figures, etc...he just wants her. He offered to share everything he had at the time with her (co-rulership of the galaxy...it wasn't his for 10 seconds and he's like, here ya go). He's always honest with her.
She gave no time for a moment while he was about to make his big move after they killed the praetorian guards ("The fleet..."),
She has some maturing to do before IX so that they can end up together...he needs to work on his delivery...but I think we'll get there.
@@jenniferoliver8334 you've made some good points
No offense to Poe fans or Denise cause I know she likes him but I’m with Lee I’d be fine if Kylo let Poe parish lol jk jk I ♥️ Oscar I hope Poe survives he’s an ok side character.
LOL, it should be like Final Destination with Poe. He was destined to die in 7 and he'll have to bite it by the end of the trilogy. Just kidding don't kill me, Poe fans! I'm actually fine with him living as well. xD
Dude, at least I don't want him anywhere near the force plot, and I don't really think he'll be there. That said, he's the closest living character to Leia, his arc in TFA is quite similar to Leia's in ANH, so he's in a good position to continue her work and her legacy, and that could be beautiful.
Lords of the Sith Podcast it’s ok if you love Poe. We all love different things about this story♥️ I was just teasing you. I do think if Poe had stayed dead in TFA then Fin would have had a more front and center storyline in TLJ though. I’ll never forgive JJ and Rian for that over sight of the story because I love John Boyega and his story line should have been way better. Keep Poe alive but don’t put him above one of the 3 main characters. It has never made any sense for me and it still doesn’t.
@@anthoneyrago Oh, yeah, Poe shouldn't have had all that much screentime in TLJ. I like Poe but I agree with you.
maybe I'm the only reylo who doesn't see reylo babies as endgame. honestly I see them both in exile raising force positive kids they find not as jedi but understanding the force to be more likely than actual biological kids. Also I think the only way Rey can forgive him is if he stops caring just about her. She left him because he was fine with the rebellion dying on the ships, I would like to see him save Poe and Finn and kill whoever kills Leia. But yeah he can't just do it because he wants Rey or loves her. That's still toxic masculinity. Rey is what starts to the change but yeah he has to change for himself not her.
Reylo babies are because of the Skywalker saga, but we don't have to see them yet as long as we know they can still happen.
Kylo turning to the light is NOT balance and is NOT Reylo.
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Ii think Kylo Ren will die saving Rey and resistance. that's painfull but the most probable way.
It's a possibility, yes.
I don’t have high hopes for Episode 9. JJ is great w casting but he’s not good w creating great stories. His stories r just too shadow & “safe”. I don’t expect him to tell a great love story. That’s not his forte. I don’t even want him to try. It’ll end up like the bridal carry in TFA, obtrusive, so in your face.
He did well with Felicity. Spock and Uhura in Star Trek were sweet. We'll see...
HOLY FUCKING SHIT! THIS IS NOT REYLO!
He'll probably get a sex change to cure his toxic masculinity, and then marry Rey.
He cannot... he killed his father the Han Solo....