Copy paste of a reddit comment I made the other day: "I opened up hammer and measured that soldier's shoulder to the center of his chest is 16 hammer units. The rocket moves at 1100 hammer units per second (68.75 feet per second or 46.875 mph). If we shoot an object exactly 1100 units away, it will take the original one second to get there. Knowing the distance between center and stock rocket firing location, we can use Pythagorean theorem to find the new adjusted distance. √((1100)² + (16)²) = 1100.12. If we divide the answer by 1100, we can find how many seconds it takes. 1100.12 / 1100 = 1.0001. Since TF2 server updates at 16 tick rate (one update every 0.0625 seconds), we can see the time difference isn't even registered in game, thus meaning original is not faster than stock."
@@CAMSLAYER13 No, i phrased that incorrectly, I didn't argue about what rocket hit first, I wanted to correct you on distance being seperate from time.
Illegal Aliens Speed is a rate. Since the rocket is traveling at a constant speed, any change in distance will be accompanied by a proportional change in time. As a simplified example, let’s say the rocket is traveling at 1 m/s. It takes 1 second to go 1 meter, 2 seconds to go 2 meters, etc. The rocket isn’t any faster if it goes 2 meters instead of 1, because the rate, 1 m/s, is the same.
It was really distracting but I appreciate the concept. Maybe a more subtle loading icon or a transparent pulsing glowing text would have been more out of the way.
Sometimes the audio plays while the video is frozen. This usually happens to those with bad internet (at&t or comcast) because audio is either prioritized, or because audio files are simply smaller than video for whatever reason.
woahhhh hbro so fucking cool that people can do science about a thing that is not traditionally associated with academic pursuits............... like bro wtf I dont learn this in my science class as school why isnt this more common bro its science waoooh.. shut up
I LOVE that "video isn't frozen" animation, sometimes I have legitimately thought that my video was frozen, and I thought that on this video too, but that animation really helped!
hey dudes - since we've actually somehow made it close to 10k subs, i want to take the time to slow down and ask: what would people like to see more of? tf2 design analysis? game mechanics? tutorials on how to get good at the game? more memes? as thanks for taking the time to answer my question, i'll also answer any of your questions :)
Hey! I might have a technical explanation for this; Video game engines usually run (at least) two different update routines during their lifetime, one of them being a fixed update and one of them being an update. I won't go into huge detail here, but fixed update is a loop which runs at a fixed time step (e.g. 50Hz) and is usually tied to the physics engine of the game. The other one, the normal, routine is run as much frequently as possible. This one is only limited by the hardware of your machine, but of course can be limited via vsync or maxfps commands. Physics is resolved in a fixed update, due to how it works. Most of the physical engines work in a way that each physical step, all of your physical objects are moved via their physical properties and only then collision is detected, resolved and corrected. If you made a projectile that would be very small and allow it to travel at high velocity, without having continuous detection for such rigidbody enabled, your collision might even be skipped, because it would just pass through objects easily and never get corrected properly. What this can mean in your case is that your renderer might show two different rockets at two different places, because we can approximate their position based on their current velocity and render them somewhere between now and next step, but your physical engine will resolve these two collisions within a single fixed update, because these projectiles travel too fast and their collision (and correction) occur within a single frame (single fixed update). So pure hypothesis: Assuming you could change your physical step from let's say 50Hz to hundred or thousand times more (5KHz?); besides the fact that your framerate would most likely die, because not much update calls could keep up with this amount of fixed steps; you might be able to reach such a small physical simulation step (e.g. if an object is moved at 1 unit/sec, in each step it would move only 0.0002 units) that should make it possible to register these hits in two separate fixed updates). :) Source: I work as a game programmer for 3 years, but you should be able to confirm these (I simplified a lot for the sake of general audience) by seeing topics such as: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_engine en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_programming#Game_structure And so on. :)
This is exactly what I was thinking. Clearly the rockets _are_ offset from each other in the Original's favor, but is there ever a circumstance where there is 1 tick of difference between the two, causing the Original to detonate 1 tick faster? The quickest way to get to the bottom of that would probably be to analyze the distance between the two spawn points on Soldier's model, then look at the speed of the rocket, and determine whether a hitbox at the spawnpoint of the Original's rocket would have any advantage at all over Stock. Since the offset gets less relevant the further out the model is, then if it's not relevant at all at even the most contrived example skewed in the Original's favor, it'll never be relevant in any other circumstance. But then things get dicey since the hitboxes in this game aren't points, they're usually large boxes. A hitbox right at the Original's spawnpoint, for almost all intents and purposes, can be thought of as eclipsing the Stock's spawn point as well. There very likely practically isn't a point of impact in the game where the Original has an edge.
Yeah, most of the Source engine runs at a fixed timestep, with TF2 running at 66 steps per second. And I would hazard a guess and say that TF2 uses some form of continuous collision detection within the Havok physics engine, because otherwise fast projectiles like the Huntsman arrow would pass through things like walls. Maybe there's a case where a small enough timestep could highlight the distance between the Original and stock, but given how the rockets move the same speed, hit the same target, and are an insignificant distance apart, it would make the server unusable in any real world situation (especially now with 100 player servers lol)
We thought we were waiting for the Heavy Update, but we really haven't been waiting for anything, we have a Spectator update, we just can't see it because it's spectating us
been rewatching tons of tf2 essay/docu style types of videos mainly for background noise. while most of them do fine as that, there are only a few i actually sit down and actually rewatch. and then theres shounic. please dont ever stop making content, regardless of the medium
There's a better way to figure it out You just have to create a new map, at which 2 bots are spawning in DIFFERENT locations. Both bots have a wall in front of them, around 500-1000 hammer units away. Each wall (if being more certain, func_button, not a wall) has output, that deletes second wall, so second rocket can't hit it. That means that if original's rocket hits first wall, stock rocket launcher's wall will disappear, and stock rocket will continue to fly. Btw, the bigger distance between each wall and bot, the better results will be received!
Actually, I would think that further distances wouldn't do much, because the rockets travel at a fixed speed, so if the small margin is insignificant at a small distance, it'd be insignificant at a larger distance as well
I thought that the rocket launcher simply made it fly forward at the same speed as the original while also going horizontally until it reached the center?
Horizontally would mean it would have farther to travel. Do Pythagorean’s theorem. If the Original’s trajectory represents the flat part of a triangle, whereas the stock represents the diagonal line above it, the diagonal line is always longer - aka, a farther distance. This would mean to reach the target at the same time, the Stock’s rockets would actually have to travel slightly faster, giving it an advantage over the Original at a long enough distance.
@@bugjams When shooting directly at your target along, let's say, the x axis the rocket launcher does not have any advantage no matter the distance, since the velocity of both rockets along the x axis remains the same, so they reach the target during the exact same time. The additional velocity that the rocket launcher's rockets possess is directed along another axis, thus it doesn't affect the time it takes for a rocket to travel a set distance along the x axis.
@@bugjams Pythagorean theorem works for real world triangles, but here it's significantly more likely that stock rockets travel forward at the same speed as Original rockets, but *also* move themselves closer to the crosshair as they travel, making them arrive at the same time regardless of the distance. Or, in other words, stock travels faster to negate the difference of distances.
@@thesaltgod and funnily enough, the current difference between Stock and Original is more insignificant at further distances, so it would be practically the same at sufficiently long distances. It would only be noticeable at much closer ranges, but it wouldn't matter in game.
We'd have to dive into the source spaghetti to learn more about how it deals with two-rockets-one-target-one-tick conflict resolution. I really like the Discovery involving first and last people joined with first and people last players joined (playerEnt spawned?) because that makes sense. Perhaps it has something to do with the rocket splash damage routine? Though, you'd think it to share the grenade launcher's explosion code. Maybe not though. 🍝
Maybe stock shoots faster (along its axis) such that both it and the originals' rockets meet at an apex. Try testing it with the heavy 2x closer, or father away.
That would theoretically give the Stock an advantage over the Original. At least, at very long ranges. Maybe the devs thought it was okay since very few maps have long enough open areas for the speed difference to matter that much. Or they thought it would be balanced since it’s harder to hit enemies at long distances since they can see the rocket coming and move.
@@bugjams but if its at an angle that would have given it a disadvantage if the speed was the same, wouldnt giving it a faster speed balance it out? it must travel farther so giving it a speed boost that becomes irrelevant due to the angle wouldnt make sense for it to be an advantage.
@@PoKeKidMPK1 Which is why it said it would give the stock an advantage at longer ranges, where it's higher speed would have more of a noticeable effect.
maybe have the 2 soldier bots the same distance from a target between them? that way you could see the rockets individually. the distance wouldnt matter since is would be the same
It's obvious that they both go at the same speed forward, one is just offset to the right and slowly moves to the centre in addition to going forward; it's moving diagonally, but from two different vectors.
But unless the diagonal line started at a spot slightly closer to the target, it would have to travel farther to reach the target. Maybe we could check to see where the rockets spawn? Between the Original and the stock, does the stock perhaps spawn the rocket to the side, and slightly forward? But then again, if it did that, it would be objectively better at close range and objectively worse at longer range.
@@Arch-Tau yes, but the faster one has equally more distance to travel, and once it reaches the centre point, both speeds become equal, since only forward motion remains. I was also referring to the speed at which the projectile reaches the target.
If we turn this into a two-dimensional physics problem: say that the rocket's velocity from the soldier is the x-velocity. On both rocket launchers, the x-velocity is the same. However, the y-velocity is different. So the rockets have the same x-travel time, but the stock launcher also travels in the y-direction.
@august elmelund nielsen made sense for my brain, but if it doesnt work for you, just think about it as if both rockets are 2 balls in a pipe. You can lift the pipe around and carry it in a straight line (the direction toward the target that the rockets are traveling in), and the balls can move around sideways in the pipe at the same time. The speed the pipe is going towards the target is the same, but the balls might move at different speeds sideways in the pipe. Ultimately the stock rocket might be traveling at a higher magnitude speed, but in the direction of intended travel, both travel the same speed. Which means it might be worth testing if you can hit closer targets faster with the stock rocket launcher before the paths merge by aiming slightly off centre?
I got back to actually playing rather than just peeking just recently. It’s been 4 years and I got to say, I am clueless. Not sure if rocket jumping has changed but I can’t do it. Casual and competitive is a thing. Inventories and class customisation are different. Something about the stock launcher makes it somewhat weaker?
lol i saw the melee clip in the preview and thought my youtube bugged out since i also play a lot of melee and wasnt expecting to see it on a tf2 video
Tf2's hit reg is...odd to say the least. The issue you were running into with the rockets exploding on one of the soldiers is something that happens quiet often in normal gameplay with all projectiles. Rockets blow up on contact with an entity even if they're on your team, this happens with most of the games projectiles such as the sniper's jarate. Melee hits also suffer from this. Anywho this was an informative vid and it does bring up a great question as the original should have a faster rocket.
I'm pretty sure that the distance of difference is so small that the target's breathing idle animation impacts on whichever rocket touches it first. To visualize this: close up, slow motion, unhide hitboxes and watch how the target's arm moves forward when exhaling and inwards when breathing in. So when the diagonal rocket is fired at a certain time it will collide with the forward arm first despite the original having arrived at the scene first but missing the arm and instead going for the chest that is still further ahead.
Personally, I prefer the Original. It has a very appealing look, it's quite fun to play with, and it can fire straight instead of slightly to the left. Oh yeah, the rocket launcher is nice too.
I've always wondered about this. Does the stock RL's trajectory ever fully intersect the 'crosshair line'? If you had a map that was just a maximally vast box and aimed your stock crosshair at a target that was miles away, would it eventually hit that wall, but to the left of the crosshair (because it had enough time to intersect with your crosshair line and move to the other side of it)? OR - Does the stock RL not really shoot in straight lines? Maybe they kind of 'cheat' it and while it starts out from the right side of your crosshair line, it actually curves until it is eventually in line with the crosshair?
Yeah, that's a good question. Realistically, it would intersect with the 'crosshair line' at some point, which is why real life rocket launchers have a crosshair/sight with range adjustment.
Does TF2 perform ticks at same rate when the timescale is turned down? If so, then the in-game time between ticks should be more accurate and could discern which is closer to the target.
some videos have shown slowed down testing of things such as rockets traveling and reload speed, but nothing was different from it, basically the same as what was shown in this video but slower of course. the rocket are shown to disappear at the same time.
Adjusting the host_timescale doesn't make the step size smaller, so the rockets appear to explode simultaneously because the difference between them was far less than a tick. _Theoretically_ the Original is faster, but not by any meaningful amount. I could see it _maybe_ amounting to a single tick difference on cross-map shots, but that's it.
The video basically asked the question which rocket hits the target faster not which rocket flies faster. The reason you didn't find the answer is that when you increase the target distance you also decrease the difference between the original rocket and the rocket launcher rocket, making them more likely to hit the target at the same time. The closer the target, the more likely the original will kill the target, but only if the soldiers are looking the same direction. This though, is only when the rocket launcher always shoots straight to the crosshair. Could you look more into how the rocket launcher shoots at the crosshair at different distances?
its just a spin on the "ben shapiro OBLITERATES libtard with facts and logic" meme from last year, which in itself was mocking RUclips titles of videos featuring Ben Shapiro. The meme itself is actually against Ben, although he acknowledged it a while back
Hypothesis: just like with killcam speed, rockets do not have any "inherent" speed - instead, their speed is calculated from the distance between target raycast and an arbitrary (but common) point, like player's position, and then adjusted for rocket's trajectory, IE Real speed / real distance = calculated speed / calculated distance. I believe something similar was done in Doom and that kind of transformation is done all the time in gamedev
i see you are a man of culture and chose cave story music for this video very based and good useful info as always and the dev commentary edits at the end are always fun
I think it has to do with the order the rocket is spawned in and how the rocket actually moves. The fact that the two rockets land at the exact same time on a flat wall shouldn’t be possible. This makes me think that it’s actually moving be either it’s tangent or it’s lerping the position between the end position end the begin position. Try to shoot it at a corner or something and get it’s average speed and compare those to when shooting at 90 degrees. This way you can see how it’s moving it. If it comes to the order it checks it in, it most likely also comes from the order in wich the players are checked for their inputs on the server. One thing that also quickly came to mind is variable framerates. If it’s inconsistent, it could mess a tiny bit with the bullet’s movement and how it detects collisions. There are multiple ways to detect collisions, but the two most popular are the raycast detection and collision box detection. With raycast detection it shoots a ray from the position of the projectile to it’s next position, and checks if anything is inbetween that. With collision boxes, it’s slightly more efficient, but this also means that high velocity projectiles will simply go through the object it’s supposed to hit, because it’s previous position was in front of the object, and it’s current position is behind it. Things don’t actually move, they just teleport. The issues with this can be seen in action in kerbal space program when trying to bomb one of the ksc’ buildings with very fast travelling objects. There are a lot of things that could mess with the projectile, but i hope that these will help.
Maybe you could spawn two soldiers side by side on an extremely long map, have both fire at the same time and see which one traverses the distance faster than the other.
One thing to take into account; spawning in the Source Engine is a process. You can see part of this in the video. When the engineer is spawned, it starts at the same orientation as the world. Then it's rotated to the orientation of the spawn entity. (This is before it actually shows up.) Finally, the scripts are loaded. The same goes for rockets. The only time this is not the case is with hitscan
rgtdlr: the position of the original's rocket versus the regular rocket affects the time to get to a destination, therefore, the original is, _technically_ slightly faster
Funny thing about diagonals, yes they are literally longer but if you are to compare it like a triangle the farther away the target the less the distance matters and it becomes mathematically insignificant and might as well be the same distance.
I was once in a 2fort community server. There were two people, one was using the original and the other was using something else (I didn't see what he used), and after a while, they started arguing, and it wasn't calm like it should have been, but they yelled. And when I say yelled, I *MEAN* yelled. One said that the original had an advantage over stock, and the other said that they were the same, just the original is in a different place on the screen. For about 30 minutes (or maybe even an hour, I don't remember), it was just eardrum exploding yelling about the original and stock. Today, I regret not recording it. :')
I actually think that rocket speed between Original and Stock are _practically_ equal. There might be something about rocket speed that calculates how fast rockets should move based on triangulation between three points: 1. Point where the soldier is aiming 2. The origin of the soldier 3. The origin of where the rocket is generated (what differs between Original and Stock). The time it takes for a rocket to hit a target is chiefly determined by points 1 and 2, but then the third point of this triangle, where the rocket is generated from, is accounted for to adjust the projectile's speed. This likely has always been a function that Valve could use for their weapon's aiming systems (and in fact probably even just the function used to generate hitscan ray-traces), because of just how often it is to have weapons fire from a view model that isn't perfectly centered on the player's screen. In other words, Stock rockets are ever so slightly faster, but they're always _precisely_ the degree faster required to hit the target (or a solid map object) at the same time as the Original. And really looking at the footage around 3:55, that kind of checks out when considering the two rockets both move from left to right at the same speed, and then, when detonating at extremely low engine speed, apparently despawn at the exact same time. That then makes me wonder exactly how close a target would need to be in order to produce appreciable difference in rocket speed if that all were the case...
when you think about it, the math wouldn't matter since the engine just simply adds on a sideways movement onto the rocket when it's fired such that it hits the center and stays at the center
the rocket speeds might be exactly the same but then the stock rocket is given sideways velocity, the velocities add up, which means its traveling forward at the same speed but overall faster than the original
As you said, the diagonal rocket line is longer. Does that mean the stock projectile speed is faster since it is travelling technically more distance per sec than the original since though they hit at the same time?
man if we keep going like this, we are going to bump into parallel universes and quantum mechanics in the tf2's source engine
Why everywhone has that avatar
some old meme where a bunch of people switched their profile pic to JC Denton from Deus Ex as a big joke
"Gravelpit rollout in 0.5x A press"
DIRTY DEEDS DONE DIRT CHEAP
@@thegreenfather1978 SPYCRAB TRANSPORTATION
"...shooting people is not giving us the answers we want..."
If violence isn't the solution you're just not using enough of it
Sounds like Aperture science
Americans: im gonna pretend i didnt seen that
@@faceless2302 Maxim 6 of the Seventy Maxim of Maximally Effective Mercenary
USE MORE GUN
Copy paste of a reddit comment I made the other day: "I opened up hammer and measured that soldier's shoulder to the center of his chest is 16 hammer units. The rocket moves at 1100 hammer units per second (68.75 feet per second or 46.875 mph). If we shoot an object exactly 1100 units away, it will take the original one second to get there. Knowing the distance between center and stock rocket firing location, we can use Pythagorean theorem to find the new adjusted distance. √((1100)² + (16)²) = 1100.12. If we divide the answer by 1100, we can find how many seconds it takes. 1100.12 / 1100 = 1.0001. Since TF2 server updates at 16 tick rate (one update every 0.0625 seconds), we can see the time difference isn't even registered in game, thus meaning original is not faster than stock."
Even if the original hit first it would not be faster anyway. It would be travelling slightly less distance.
@@CAMSLAYER13 speed is the result of dividing distance by time, so yes it is faster.
@@slyseal2091 but the rocket would take slightly longer to reach its destination so it'd even out
@@CAMSLAYER13 No, i phrased that incorrectly, I didn't argue about what rocket hit first, I wanted to correct you on distance being seperate from time.
Illegal Aliens
Speed is a rate. Since the rocket is traveling at a constant speed, any change in distance will be accompanied by a proportional change in time.
As a simplified example, let’s say the rocket is traveling at 1 m/s. It takes 1 second to go 1 meter, 2 seconds to go 2 meters, etc.
The rocket isn’t any faster if it goes 2 meters instead of 1, because the rate, 1 m/s, is the same.
"Video isn't Frozen"
You are an actual genius. This is such a good idea in every way.
It was really distracting but I appreciate the concept. Maybe a more subtle loading icon or a transparent pulsing glowing text would have been more out of the way.
i mean you can hear that the video is playing lol
Sometimes the audio plays while the video is frozen.
This usually happens to those with bad internet (at&t or comcast) because audio is either prioritized, or because audio files are simply smaller than video for whatever reason.
First time reading that I thought you meant the movie "Frozen"
@@PassTheSnails "really distracting" - I don't think you should watch any video of such a small thing really distracts you
0:20 question formulation
0:24 hypothesis
0:56 prediction from hypothesis
1:03 testing
1:35 analysis
3:28 conclusion
4:25 evaluation
So yeah, this is literally science.
@I SELL SALT fuck you
@@m4rcyonstation93 no u
*W H Y D O I H A V E T O T H I N K A B O U T T H I S N O W*
You forgot,
The true ending: 4:32
woahhhh hbro so fucking cool that people can do science about a thing that is not traditionally associated with academic pursuits............... like bro wtf I dont learn this in my science class as school why isnt this more common bro its science waoooh.. shut up
I love how its 2019 and people still make Vids about this game, major props
the game is immortal
And for a very small mechanic
and the videos still get a hundred thousand views in a couple of days.
prop_physics
@@EpicMiniMeatwad prop_dynamic
I can't believe you actually made me laugh at a Harambe joke in 2019
same
no matter what topic, if a joke is really good ull laugh
What's a harambe joke? I am not from english-speaking country, so i never heard this joke.
@@v_salat A gorilla that got shot in 2016 in a zoo cause it did something with a child, the child was not hurt I think but the gorilla was.
@@thegmodguy3411 Haha, thank you!
My video froze at the "Video isn't frozen" part and i waited for 4 minutes.
hee LIEEED
Reeee
Well, isn't that ironic?
i had an unhealthy laugh when i saw the bot getting killed was named harambe
cheasybread and the scouts being zoo keepers
That’s not funny. Harambe died for this country, you should show some respect. RIP HARAMBE 🙏
@@user-sc4hv8qe6f r/woooosh
@@scoutredcrew1145 r/woooosh on you
cheasybread I quietly cackled when the first bot was JFK
The killfeed names are the real treasure of this video
Bot04
ben shapiro [kills] libtards?
I felt fucking queasy looking at that.
John Wilkes Booth and Lee Harvey Oswald being the two bots killing John F Kennedy was neat. No AL tho.
@@caramelldansen2204 dumb libtard, get owned with facts, logic, and Ben's lust for AOC's feet
Harambe
The editing and amount of info in this video was amazing, would love to see more of these types of vids!
are you a gay?
@@meghanachauhan9380Huh?
I LOVE that "video isn't frozen" animation, sometimes I have legitimately thought that my video was frozen, and I thought that on this video too, but that animation really helped!
Lee Harvey Oswald and John Wilkes Booth: "No American President could ever stand up to this Deadly Alliance!"
@River The two bots were named LHO and JWB
But the presidence they killed were sitting down.
hey dudes - since we've actually somehow made it close to 10k subs, i want to take the time to slow down and ask:
what would people like to see more of? tf2 design analysis? game mechanics? tutorials on how to get good at the game? more memes?
as thanks for taking the time to answer my question, i'll also answer any of your questions :)
shounic these are very interesting my friend, more like this heh
The videos on these more niche game mechanics are great, I'd love to see more of them.
Maybe a mix? Game mechanics and general tips and specific tutorials, your videos are tremendously good!
@@aitormoreton333 Yes!
Tutorials to git good pls and also more memes
Hey! I might have a technical explanation for this;
Video game engines usually run (at least) two different update routines during their lifetime, one of them being a fixed update and one of them being an update.
I won't go into huge detail here, but fixed update is a loop which runs at a fixed time step (e.g. 50Hz) and is usually tied to the physics engine of the game.
The other one, the normal, routine is run as much frequently as possible. This one is only limited by the hardware of your machine, but of course can be limited via vsync or maxfps commands.
Physics is resolved in a fixed update, due to how it works. Most of the physical engines work in a way that each physical step, all of your physical objects are moved via their physical properties and only then collision is detected, resolved and corrected. If you made a projectile that would be very small and allow it to travel at high velocity, without having continuous detection for such rigidbody enabled, your collision might even be skipped, because it would just pass through objects easily and never get corrected properly.
What this can mean in your case is that your renderer might show two different rockets at two different places, because we can approximate their position based on their current velocity and render them somewhere between now and next step, but your physical engine will resolve these two collisions within a single fixed update, because these projectiles travel too fast and their collision (and correction) occur within a single frame (single fixed update).
So pure hypothesis: Assuming you could change your physical step from let's say 50Hz to hundred or thousand times more (5KHz?); besides the fact that your framerate would most likely die, because not much update calls could keep up with this amount of fixed steps; you might be able to reach such a small physical simulation step (e.g. if an object is moved at 1 unit/sec, in each step it would move only 0.0002 units) that should make it possible to register these hits in two separate fixed updates). :)
Source: I work as a game programmer for 3 years, but you should be able to confirm these (I simplified a lot for the sake of general audience) by seeing topics such as:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_engine
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_programming#Game_structure
And so on. :)
This is exactly what I was thinking. Clearly the rockets _are_ offset from each other in the Original's favor, but is there ever a circumstance where there is 1 tick of difference between the two, causing the Original to detonate 1 tick faster?
The quickest way to get to the bottom of that would probably be to analyze the distance between the two spawn points on Soldier's model, then look at the speed of the rocket, and determine whether a hitbox at the spawnpoint of the Original's rocket would have any advantage at all over Stock. Since the offset gets less relevant the further out the model is, then if it's not relevant at all at even the most contrived example skewed in the Original's favor, it'll never be relevant in any other circumstance.
But then things get dicey since the hitboxes in this game aren't points, they're usually large boxes. A hitbox right at the Original's spawnpoint, for almost all intents and purposes, can be thought of as eclipsing the Stock's spawn point as well. There very likely practically isn't a point of impact in the game where the Original has an edge.
after years and years of the video's release, this comment is by far the most underrated with actual info, holy shit
Yeah, most of the Source engine runs at a fixed timestep, with TF2 running at 66 steps per second.
And I would hazard a guess and say that TF2 uses some form of continuous collision detection within the Havok physics engine, because otherwise fast projectiles like the Huntsman arrow would pass through things like walls.
Maybe there's a case where a small enough timestep could highlight the distance between the Original and stock, but given how the rockets move the same speed, hit the same target, and are an insignificant distance apart, it would make the server unusable in any real world situation (especially now with 100 player servers lol)
"So one of the first programmers of team fortress 2's previous job was um.. manager of a waffle house"
thank you gaben, very cool.
I really like the visual style with which You present this information to us. It's very clean and smooth. Helps with the attention span
Obviously to be as effective as possible you play the spectator class
but of course
-t
Smh these noobs playing soldier 🙄 spectator is the sixes meta you idiot
We thought we were waiting for the Heavy Update, but we really haven't been waiting for anything, we have a Spectator update, we just can't see it because it's spectating us
been rewatching tons of tf2 essay/docu style types of videos mainly for background noise. while most of them do fine as that, there are only a few i actually sit down and actually rewatch. and then theres shounic. please dont ever stop making content, regardless of the medium
There's a better way to figure it out
You just have to create a new map, at which 2 bots are spawning in DIFFERENT locations. Both bots have a wall in front of them, around 500-1000 hammer units away. Each wall (if being more certain, func_button, not a wall) has output, that deletes second wall, so second rocket can't hit it. That means that if original's rocket hits first wall, stock rocket launcher's wall will disappear, and stock rocket will continue to fly.
Btw, the bigger distance between each wall and bot, the better results will be received!
Haha time for the rockets to somehow turn into probability waves
Add after each wall a wall that resets the vanished wall to make rrtesting easier.
Actually, I would think that further distances wouldn't do much, because the rockets travel at a fixed speed, so if the small margin is insignificant at a small distance, it'd be insignificant at a larger distance as well
I thought that the rocket launcher simply made it fly forward at the same speed as the original while also going horizontally until it reached the center?
Horizontally would mean it would have farther to travel. Do Pythagorean’s theorem. If the Original’s trajectory represents the flat part of a triangle, whereas the stock represents the diagonal line above it, the diagonal line is always longer - aka, a farther distance.
This would mean to reach the target at the same time, the Stock’s rockets would actually have to travel slightly faster, giving it an advantage over the Original at a long enough distance.
@@bugjams When shooting directly at your target along, let's say, the x axis the rocket launcher does not have any advantage no matter the distance, since the velocity of both rockets along the x axis remains the same, so they reach the target during the exact same time. The additional velocity that the rocket launcher's rockets possess is directed along another axis, thus it doesn't affect the time it takes for a rocket to travel a set distance along the x axis.
@@bugjams Pythagorean theorem works for real world triangles, but here it's significantly more likely that stock rockets travel forward at the same speed as Original rockets, but *also* move themselves closer to the crosshair as they travel, making them arrive at the same time regardless of the distance.
Or, in other words, stock travels faster to negate the difference of distances.
@@thesaltgod and funnily enough, the current difference between Stock and Original is more insignificant at further distances, so it would be practically the same at sufficiently long distances. It would only be noticeable at much closer ranges, but it wouldn't matter in game.
"Since shooting people isn't giving us the answer, maybe shooting a wall will."
Ah. American logic.
WAD YOU SAY ABOUR AMERICA, I MIGHT HAVE TO RESORT TO GUN IF YOU DONT STOP TALKING YOU FRENCH SPY
**pole vaults away on baguette**
@@DerUberStern *rocket jumps towards you with an rpg*
@@snomandonly **Snort Snort**
for that you don't get covid vaccine
One of the most underated tf2 youtubers out there
This is really interesting and the editing and graphics are incredibly well done. It's the type of content I'd expect from a channel with 1m+ subs.
We'd have to dive into the source spaghetti to learn more about how it deals with two-rockets-one-target-one-tick conflict resolution. I really like the Discovery involving first and last people joined with first and people last players joined (playerEnt spawned?) because that makes sense.
Perhaps it has something to do with the rocket splash damage routine? Though, you'd think it to share the grenade launcher's explosion code. Maybe not though. 🍝
Maybe stock shoots faster (along its axis) such that both it and the originals' rockets meet at an apex. Try testing it with the heavy 2x closer, or father away.
He should try this with pyro reflecting multiple rockets, because then you can exaggerate the starting offset
That would theoretically give the Stock an advantage over the Original. At least, at very long ranges. Maybe the devs thought it was okay since very few maps have long enough open areas for the speed difference to matter that much. Or they thought it would be balanced since it’s harder to hit enemies at long distances since they can see the rocket coming and move.
@@bugjams but if its at an angle that would have given it a disadvantage if the speed was the same, wouldnt giving it a faster speed balance it out? it must travel farther so giving it a speed boost that becomes irrelevant due to the angle wouldnt make sense for it to be an advantage.
@@PoKeKidMPK1
Which is why it said it would give the stock an advantage at longer ranges, where it's higher speed would have more of a noticeable effect.
@@bugjams but its traveling farther rather than shorter or even, so it reaches at a similar time of shorter distance but slower speed.
maybe have the 2 soldier bots the same distance from a target between them? that way you could see the rockets individually. the distance wouldnt matter since is would be the same
Or have 2 separate targets and each soldier shoot at 1. Who ever shows up in the kill-feed first, is the fastest.
It's obvious that they both go at the same speed forward, one is just offset to the right and slowly moves to the centre in addition to going forward; it's moving diagonally, but from two different vectors.
Yes, that is obvious.
This would mean that one speed is higher than another.
But unless the diagonal line started at a spot slightly closer to the target, it would have to travel farther to reach the target. Maybe we could check to see where the rockets spawn?
Between the Original and the stock, does the stock perhaps spawn the rocket to the side, and slightly forward?
But then again, if it did that, it would be objectively better at close range and objectively worse at longer range.
@@Arch-Tau yes, but the faster one has equally more distance to travel, and once it reaches the centre point, both speeds become equal, since only forward motion remains.
I was also referring to the speed at which the projectile reaches the target.
@@B----------------------------D Are you talking out of your ass or is this actually how the rockets work?
4:06 That indication is a *_BRILLIANT_* idea
Thanks for doing the "video isn't frozen" thing. Such a simple thing, but quite helpful.
If we turn this into a two-dimensional physics problem: say that the rocket's velocity from the soldier is the x-velocity.
On both rocket launchers, the x-velocity is the same. However, the y-velocity is different. So the rockets have the same x-travel time, but the stock launcher also travels in the y-direction.
@august elmelund nielsen made sense for my brain, but if it doesnt work for you, just think about it as if both rockets are 2 balls in a pipe. You can lift the pipe around and carry it in a straight line (the direction toward the target that the rockets are traveling in), and the balls can move around sideways in the pipe at the same time. The speed the pipe is going towards the target is the same, but the balls might move at different speeds sideways in the pipe.
Ultimately the stock rocket might be traveling at a higher magnitude speed, but in the direction of intended travel, both travel the same speed. Which means it might be worth testing if you can hit closer targets faster with the stock rocket launcher before the paths merge by aiming slightly off centre?
This video quality is unbelievable. Amazing video/explaining!
Scouts: Zookepers
Engineers: Harambe
Amazing video quality, great production value for such a small channel
Melee weapons use the environmental collision routines. This buffs Spy and allows the Disciplinary Action to function (though see the Crossbow).
can I just say I greatly appreciate the "Video is not frozen" box? more people need to do that, its very thoughtful
I really, really, really like this thumbnail.
I like it too
*Hasn't Played Tf2 in 3 years sees this video*
Aw shit here we go again
I got back to actually playing rather than just peeking just recently. It’s been 4 years and I got to say, I am clueless. Not sure if rocket jumping has changed but I can’t do it. Casual and competitive is a thing. Inventories and class customisation are different. Something about the stock launcher makes it somewhat weaker?
Banger of a video, subbed
lol i saw the melee clip in the preview and thought my youtube bugged out since i also play a lot of melee and wasnt expecting to see it on a tf2 video
The kikphips of tf2
Intese waiting for the cross over
@Shallex Klikphilip is a youtuber, who has a channel about CSGO
Specifically his channel 3kliksphillip, his other two channels are for other games
@Shallex kilskphipli?
I ALWAYS wondered this! Finally a video talking about it! Thanks!
Tf2's hit reg is...odd to say the least. The issue you were running into with the rockets exploding on one of the soldiers is something that happens quiet often in normal gameplay with all projectiles. Rockets blow up on contact with an entity even if they're on your team, this happens with most of the games projectiles such as the sniper's jarate. Melee hits also suffer from this. Anywho this was an informative vid and it does bring up a great question as the original should have a faster rocket.
I'm pretty sure that the distance of difference is so small that the target's breathing idle animation impacts on whichever rocket touches it first.
To visualize this: close up, slow motion, unhide hitboxes and watch how the target's arm moves forward when exhaling and inwards when breathing in. So when the diagonal rocket is fired at a certain time it will collide with the forward arm first despite the original having arrived at the scene first but missing the arm and instead going for the chest that is still further ahead.
Seriously, your videos are some of the most interesting and original (lol u git da joke lad?) on the TF2 youtube game out there. Keep it up, bruv
Lmao "original" xD
I’ve learned so much today. Nice visuals in the explanations, I love the black on white minimalistic look of the diagrams
Hey dude, great video and all. I just wanted to ask if you could make the video dark mode friendly next time.
ur eyes weak smh
Something I’m surprised about is a lot of people don’t know but the original/classic is the rocket launcher from quake
Personally, I prefer the Original.
It has a very appealing look, it's quite fun to play with, and it can fire straight instead of slightly to the left.
Oh yeah, the rocket launcher is nice too.
Bullets and projectiles come out of the between of your eyes. So, they move at the same speed.
I've always wondered about this. Does the stock RL's trajectory ever fully intersect the 'crosshair line'? If you had a map that was just a maximally vast box and aimed your stock crosshair at a target that was miles away, would it eventually hit that wall, but to the left of the crosshair (because it had enough time to intersect with your crosshair line and move to the other side of it)?
OR -
Does the stock RL not really shoot in straight lines? Maybe they kind of 'cheat' it and while it starts out from the right side of your crosshair line, it actually curves until it is eventually in line with the crosshair?
Yeah, that's a good question. Realistically, it would intersect with the 'crosshair line' at some point, which is why real life rocket launchers have a crosshair/sight with range adjustment.
It's probably logarithmic and asymptotic to the crosshair's line of sight.
This video has amazing production. Very great job
I really really really like this thumbnail!
2:20 is probably engineer hell
This guy litteraly puts a jfk assasination joke and i like it
Good video! Btw, W for the Cave Story music in the background. That's a great game.
Try spawning the bot after they shoot.
i love that video isn't frozen thing, i wish more youtubers would use it
1:02 “Ben Shapiro, libtards” oh 😳
As soon as you started talking about SSBM, I subbed and turned on notifications.
Did you try the host timescale command with hitting an enemy?
Does TF2 perform ticks at same rate when the timescale is turned down? If so, then the in-game time between ticks should be more accurate and could discern which is closer to the target.
some videos have shown slowed down testing of things such as rockets traveling and reload speed, but nothing was different from it, basically the same as what was shown in this video but slower of course. the rocket are shown to disappear at the same time.
This guy is the mad scientist of tf2
And I love it
Why is video frozen
Please make more of these! I felt like I was watching a documentary
2:16 R.I.P (look at killfeed)
Adjusting the host_timescale doesn't make the step size smaller, so the rockets appear to explode simultaneously because the difference between them was far less than a tick.
_Theoretically_ the Original is faster, but not by any meaningful amount. I could see it _maybe_ amounting to a single tick difference on cross-map shots, but that's it.
What cave story remix is this tho.
Cave Story 3D - Grand
@@shounic thanks
I discovered Cave Story thanks to TF2
props for the cave story music
Is the original faster than the stock rocket launcher?
Short story - No.
Long story - Nah.
Summary:
Nadda
Longer story - NEIN NEIN NEIN
The video basically asked the question which rocket hits the target faster not which rocket flies faster.
The reason you didn't find the answer is that when you increase the target distance you also decrease the difference between the original rocket and the rocket launcher rocket, making them more likely to hit the target at the same time.
The closer the target, the more likely the original will kill the target, but only if the soldiers are looking the same direction. This though, is only when the rocket launcher always shoots straight to the crosshair.
Could you look more into how the rocket launcher shoots at the crosshair at different distances?
2:10
😐
😑
😐
🙁
😞
Nice one naming the heavy JFK
I appreciate the "Video isn't frozen" part
very interesting vid
btw at 1:01 are you hinting that you want to build a right wing audience or is this just a meme?
Almost certain it's a meme
its just a spin on the "ben shapiro OBLITERATES libtard with facts and logic" meme from last year, which in itself was mocking RUclips titles of videos featuring Ben Shapiro. The meme itself is actually against Ben, although he acknowledged it a while back
Yes, he obviously wants to build a right wing gamer nation.
Hypothesis: just like with killcam speed, rockets do not have any "inherent" speed - instead, their speed is calculated from the distance between target raycast and an arbitrary (but common) point, like player's position, and then adjusted for rocket's trajectory, IE
Real speed / real distance = calculated speed / calculated distance.
I believe something similar was done in Doom and that kind of transformation is done all the time in gamedev
What if the original's rockets are slightly slower?
I think it'd be noticed at longer ranges pretty easily
Yeah that's true
Awesome video! Your animation and compositing is on-point.
YOOOOOOOOOO MY MAN DROPPING A MELEE REFERENCE MID TF2 VIDEO?
i love you and i am now subbed thank you for being a melee man melee person
i see you are a man of culture and chose cave story music for this video
very based and good
useful info as always and the dev commentary edits at the end are always fun
I think it has to do with the order the rocket is spawned in and how the rocket actually moves. The fact that the two rockets land at the exact same time on a flat wall shouldn’t be possible. This makes me think that it’s actually moving be either it’s tangent or it’s lerping the position between the end position end the begin position. Try to shoot it at a corner or something and get it’s average speed and compare those to when shooting at 90 degrees. This way you can see how it’s moving it.
If it comes to the order it checks it in, it most likely also comes from the order in wich the players are checked for their inputs on the server.
One thing that also quickly came to mind is variable framerates. If it’s inconsistent, it could mess a tiny bit with the bullet’s movement and how it detects collisions.
There are multiple ways to detect collisions, but the two most popular are the raycast detection and collision box detection.
With raycast detection it shoots a ray from the position of the projectile to it’s next position, and checks if anything is inbetween that.
With collision boxes, it’s slightly more efficient, but this also means that high velocity projectiles will simply go through the object it’s supposed to hit, because it’s previous position was in front of the object, and it’s current position is behind it. Things don’t actually move, they just teleport.
The issues with this can be seen in action in kerbal space program when trying to bomb one of the ksc’ buildings with very fast travelling objects.
There are a lot of things that could mess with the projectile, but i hope that these will help.
Not only is this video amazing, but the "video isn't frozen" icon is a brilliant thing to include.
Maybe you could spawn two soldiers side by side on an extremely long map, have both fire at the same time and see which one traverses the distance faster than the other.
As always, top-notch video.
Loving the Cave Story music!!
One thing to take into account; spawning in the Source Engine is a process. You can see part of this in the video. When the engineer is spawned, it starts at the same orientation as the world. Then it's rotated to the orientation of the spawn entity. (This is before it actually shows up.) Finally, the scripts are loaded. The same goes for rockets. The only time this is not the case is with hitscan
rgtdlr: the position of the original's rocket versus the regular rocket affects the time to get to a destination, therefore, the original is, _technically_ slightly faster
Correction in melee the higher port will get the grab, lower port will skip a frame tho
Funny thing about diagonals, yes they are literally longer but if you are to compare it like a triangle the farther away the target the less the distance matters and it becomes mathematically insignificant and might as well be the same distance.
I was once in a 2fort community server. There were two people, one was using the original and the other was using something else (I didn't see what he used), and after a while, they started arguing, and it wasn't calm like it should have been, but they yelled. And when I say yelled, I *MEAN* yelled. One said that the original had an advantage over stock, and the other said that they were the same, just the original is in a different place on the screen. For about 30 minutes (or maybe even an hour, I don't remember), it was just eardrum exploding yelling about the original and stock. Today, I regret not recording it. :')
I actually think that rocket speed between Original and Stock are _practically_ equal. There might be something about rocket speed that calculates how fast rockets should move based on triangulation between three points:
1. Point where the soldier is aiming
2. The origin of the soldier
3. The origin of where the rocket is generated (what differs between Original and Stock).
The time it takes for a rocket to hit a target is chiefly determined by points 1 and 2, but then the third point of this triangle, where the rocket is generated from, is accounted for to adjust the projectile's speed. This likely has always been a function that Valve could use for their weapon's aiming systems (and in fact probably even just the function used to generate hitscan ray-traces), because of just how often it is to have weapons fire from a view model that isn't perfectly centered on the player's screen.
In other words, Stock rockets are ever so slightly faster, but they're always _precisely_ the degree faster required to hit the target (or a solid map object) at the same time as the Original. And really looking at the footage around 3:55, that kind of checks out when considering the two rockets both move from left to right at the same speed, and then, when detonating at extremely low engine speed, apparently despawn at the exact same time.
That then makes me wonder exactly how close a target would need to be in order to produce appreciable difference in rocket speed if that all were the case...
Props to my man for the rotating video not frozen box
How did Gaben predict what ad I would get at the end of the video
when you think about it, the math wouldn't matter since the engine just simply adds on a sideways movement onto the rocket when it's fired such that it hits the center and stays at the center
4:38 more like a spaghetti restaurant
nice choice in music
the rocket speeds might be exactly the same but then the stock rocket is given sideways velocity, the velocities add up, which means its traveling forward at the same speed but overall faster than the original
You went crazy with the trim paths in this vid lol.
A line is the shortest distance between two points. So even turning that line a little doesn’t change that.
As you said, the diagonal rocket line is longer. Does that mean the stock projectile speed is faster since it is travelling technically more distance per sec than the original since though they hit at the same time?
1:04 Thus Begins -John Doe- Soldier's massive killstreak and the death of thousand conscripted Hoovies