Cool framework to think about units in any RTS. It's easy for new players to overlook the logistics of combat and look exclusively at more explicit counters (like extra dmg vs certain tags).
Great video. 5:12 is my biggest gripe with the game I so hope they change. That setup you have pictured there with a gap with guys on hold. You'd think that'd be a good defensive setup. However, this game does not have SC2's high ground vs low ground rules. Those 3 Argents there can easily be overrun with an opponent headbutting their way in. Low ground units in this game can shoot at anything from high ground shooting them. So your advantage is really only getting that first shot and for a game where things take a long time to die, doesn't mean that much. Once those Argent's fire, there's essentially no more advantage they have in the high ground and I hate that. Tactically in this game defenders advantage here is greatly reduced compared to SC2 where if they're on high ground, you need a flying spotter or to be on the ramp to see up there. Lets hope SG simply adopts SC2's system for more in-depth tactical play which is what makes RTSs fun (note:I'm aware that other games handle this system different but I prefer SC2s)
Indeed, the main reason to wall off currently in the game is amplify the range advantage of your units, but if your opponent has units with equal or greater range it wont help much, other than to delay your opponent getting into your base. The Stormgate Dev's have talked about adding high ground advantage to the game, in which they plan to use a similar system seen in Sc1, where you can shoot back at units firing at you, but there is a 47% chance your shot will completely miss your target, which would arguably give an even greater high ground advantage compared to Sc2. Why this system isn't already in the game though is a bit bizarre, as I'm not sure how complicated it would be too add, but I believe they said it would be coming with early access, so we'll have to see when it arrives.
How do you counter mass Exos as Infernal? At first glance I thought a lot of hellborns, but it’s very hard to reach a high mass of hellborns quickly enough when exos come out so quickly
I think Exo's in general are quite difficult for Infernal players to deal with, and could very well be on the nerf list in next week's content patch. Definitely Hellborn are great against Exo's when you are able to get to them, as they can't dodge their shots like they can do when against Atlas's, and severally outrange them. In the early/mid game though, as a general principle, Exo's are strongest when there is only one attack path for enemy units to approach them, as they can easily stutter step away from a single army and Micro to their fullest. However, if you could step up flanks and surrounds, either from behind or from multiple attack paths, this can be a good way to catch the Exo's out, which are very weak units when pounced on and aren't able to avoid damage all together. But that is not the easiest thing to do depending on where your getting attacked, and works best when you have more units in general than the Vanguard player to set up a big surround. I'm thinking I might do a separate video on Terrain in the near future, to show how it can impact engagements and give the advantage to composition that would otherwise lose on equal ground, so if you'd be interested in that let me know. 😀
@@Dansible yeah personally I would love a video on terrain or more generally unit positioning since it seems to play a big role in stormgate since all the units are so unique and require different positioning
To be frank, I would expect changes to be made to the Vanguard vs Celestial match up with the next major content patch coming out on the 17th of September, as the Celestials seems quite overturned against Vanguard generally, especially with things like Kri. If you are facing people just spamming nothing but Kri, investing heavily into Hornets can work, and have been used in quite a few pro games recently, as they also seem decent against Scythe's if on an equal economy. But if your opponent is mixing in lots of Argents as well, the Hornets will likely underperform if you're both on equal economies, as the Argents will be more cost efficient. Other than that, you can try to stay equal in expansions and just try to turtle at home with mainly Exo's and Medtechs behind walls and structure to limit their exposure to melee units, and try to survive until you can start producing Helicarrier, as they can be incredible strong vs Celestials and hard to counter if you also have an army of Exo's and Mechtech to protect them. But turtling will likely result in your opponent taking all the camps on the map and expanding their economy as much as they like, which is why the match seems rather impossible for the Vanguard at the moment.
Best counter I've found is vulcans but only in a defensive stance, since the bulkiness and the AOE works wonders vs Kri as long as the kri HAVE to fight the vulcans. And in case lots of kri die on top of the vulcans, the exploding kri have no collision so its always an option to rocket jump out of the explosions
Atlas's can work quite well at focusing them down if you manually target them, as they outrange the Animancers by quite a lot. Most players will use an Evac to help reposition the Atlas's more easily without having to un siege them each time, which you can use to drop the Atlas's in front of your army to take pot shots at a Celestial player, before picking them back up and retreating. Or alternatively Helicarries can work well if you can get to them, as their Bombing run ability will also allow you to take pot shots at a Celestial army while safely out of range of it.
Cool framework to think about units in any RTS. It's easy for new players to overlook the logistics of combat and look exclusively at more explicit counters (like extra dmg vs certain tags).
Great video. 5:12 is my biggest gripe with the game I so hope they change. That setup you have pictured there with a gap with guys on hold. You'd think that'd be a good defensive setup. However, this game does not have SC2's high ground vs low ground rules. Those 3 Argents there can easily be overrun with an opponent headbutting their way in. Low ground units in this game can shoot at anything from high ground shooting them. So your advantage is really only getting that first shot and for a game where things take a long time to die, doesn't mean that much. Once those Argent's fire, there's essentially no more advantage they have in the high ground and I hate that.
Tactically in this game defenders advantage here is greatly reduced compared to SC2 where if they're on high ground, you need a flying spotter or to be on the ramp to see up there.
Lets hope SG simply adopts SC2's system for more in-depth tactical play which is what makes RTSs fun (note:I'm aware that other games handle this system different but I prefer SC2s)
Indeed, the main reason to wall off currently in the game is amplify the range advantage of your units, but if your opponent has units with equal or greater range it wont help much, other than to delay your opponent getting into your base.
The Stormgate Dev's have talked about adding high ground advantage to the game, in which they plan to use a similar system seen in Sc1, where you can shoot back at units firing at you, but there is a 47% chance your shot will completely miss your target, which would arguably give an even greater high ground advantage compared to Sc2.
Why this system isn't already in the game though is a bit bizarre, as I'm not sure how complicated it would be too add, but I believe they said it would be coming with early access, so we'll have to see when it arrives.
How do you counter mass Exos as Infernal? At first glance I thought a lot of hellborns, but it’s very hard to reach a high mass of hellborns quickly enough when exos come out so quickly
I think Exo's in general are quite difficult for Infernal players to deal with, and could very well be on the nerf list in next week's content patch.
Definitely Hellborn are great against Exo's when you are able to get to them, as they can't dodge their shots like they can do when against Atlas's, and severally outrange them.
In the early/mid game though, as a general principle, Exo's are strongest when there is only one attack path for enemy units to approach them, as they can easily stutter step away from a single army and Micro to their fullest.
However, if you could step up flanks and surrounds, either from behind or from multiple attack paths, this can be a good way to catch the Exo's out, which are very weak units when pounced on and aren't able to avoid damage all together.
But that is not the easiest thing to do depending on where your getting attacked, and works best when you have more units in general than the Vanguard player to set up a big surround.
I'm thinking I might do a separate video on Terrain in the near future, to show how it can impact engagements and give the advantage to composition that would otherwise lose on equal ground, so if you'd be interested in that let me know. 😀
@@Dansible yeah personally I would love a video on terrain or more generally unit positioning since it seems to play a big role in stormgate since all the units are so unique and require different positioning
How does the vanguard counter mass Rolling Kri? Atlas? Lancers? Exos?
To be frank, I would expect changes to be made to the Vanguard vs Celestial match up with the next major content patch coming out on the 17th of September, as the Celestials seems quite overturned against Vanguard generally, especially with things like Kri.
If you are facing people just spamming nothing but Kri, investing heavily into Hornets can work, and have been used in quite a few pro games recently, as they also seem decent against Scythe's if on an equal economy. But if your opponent is mixing in lots of Argents as well, the Hornets will likely underperform if you're both on equal economies, as the Argents will be more cost efficient.
Other than that, you can try to stay equal in expansions and just try to turtle at home with mainly Exo's and Medtechs behind walls and structure to limit their exposure to melee units, and try to survive until you can start producing Helicarrier, as they can be incredible strong vs Celestials and hard to counter if you also have an army of Exo's and Mechtech to protect them.
But turtling will likely result in your opponent taking all the camps on the map and expanding their economy as much as they like, which is why the match seems rather impossible for the Vanguard at the moment.
Best counter I've found is vulcans but only in a defensive stance, since the bulkiness and the AOE works wonders vs Kri as long as the kri HAVE to fight the vulcans.
And in case lots of kri die on top of the vulcans, the exploding kri have no collision so its always an option to rocket jump out of the explosions
How to counter animancers as vanguard?
Atlas's can work quite well at focusing them down if you manually target them, as they outrange the Animancers by quite a lot. Most players will use an Evac to help reposition the Atlas's more easily without having to un siege them each time, which you can use to drop the Atlas's in front of your army to take pot shots at a Celestial player, before picking them back up and retreating.
Or alternatively Helicarries can work well if you can get to them, as their Bombing run ability will also allow you to take pot shots at a Celestial army while safely out of range of it.