Cavalry Trials for Browning's Automatic Pistol: The Colt 1907
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- Опубликовано: 26 авг 2024
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When the US military held its automatic pistol trials in 1907 (actually beginning in December 1906…), Colt submitted a Model 1905 pistol. Despite what would be considered today to be significant problems, it was judged one of the best guns tested. A few changes were requested (more vertical ejection, a loaded chamber indicator, and a grip safety), and Colt was contracted to make 200 guns for a year-long field trial. Those guns would be the Model 1907, and they were issued to Cavalry units in Iowa, Minnesota, and the Philippines for an extensive trial.
The trial results were actually pretty poor. Unit commanders complained of significant jamming problems, broken parts (mostly firing pins and sears), difficulty getting accurate fire, and awkward handling on horseback. These issues were partially alleviated by a few modifications made to the guns in the latter half of 1909 (larger ejection ports and larger grip safeties, primarily). Ultimately, however, John Browning’s continued developmental work during the course of the field trial would result in a substantially improved mechanical design for the gun…
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School of musketry’s #1 complaint. “All the barrels appear to be rifled”
Yeah, musketry doesn't mean what you think it means books.google.com/books?id=A0C-gRAIEZkC&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false
Lol. Yeah. But they just use the old term musketry
Imagine dying thinking your body will be donated to science but it ends up getting blasted by a bunch of pistols.
I like the idea, myself. Certainly no worse than being broken down into parts for medical students to play with.
Could be worse.
I doubt they noticed.;-)
If you're trying to figure out how effective hollowpoints vs. FMJ are in over-penetration, it could still be science to blast corpses with pistols.
Well someone's grandmother in the USA donated their body to science last year and it got used by the military for explosives resistance testing, so could be worse.
Forgotten weapons and quarantine goes so well somehow
Ian disagrees.
He usually puts in a lot of work to have a 'buffer' of videos ready, I'm sure he doesn't appreciate the rate at which that buffer is being burned through.
Agreed. I ordered parts to built myself an AR a few days ago
And Ian put a lot of work in generating some "mix lists" which are awesome. Can see a whole lot of stuff thats there but not easy to find and youtube doesnt list when you search.
I've Forgotten Quarantine watching his videos.
“Experimented on human cadavers”.
Ah, the good ol’ days.
Yep, and the cows were probably not dead nor sedated either.
Are we absolutely certain that they were cadavers when the testing began? 🤔
@@carl-magnuscarlsson7713 the paedos shouldn't be either drugs nerve gas anything we need tested that's likely to result in loss of life
In fact, they were zombies, but you know...hush hush..
You should read Mary Roach's book "Stiff" for a more extensive treatment of these trials.
the TL;DR I'm getting from the negative-yet-positive field trial report, "Don't give this to idiots."
Hence why it did so poorly at the School of Musketry.
@@RobertLutece909 i laughed so hard at this. thank you
you know what they say "If you make something idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot"
How true. "Nothing is foolproof because fools are so ingenious ".
I have a theory regarding the cavalry not wanting side ejection and you Ian have inspired it. Cavalry; sword carried on the left hip available to the right hand, pistol carried on the right hip, butt forward available to the left hand; which is holding the reins. Side eject; every spent shell, right in your face! My father joined the Army National Guard in Illinois in 1940, (thinking the Guard wouldn't be called up in the expected upcoming war), he ended up in the Cavalry. Even though it was 1940, some training was done on horses and they were initially issued revolvers in .45 long colt. He told me that they had to use half moon clips to shoot .45 ACP because Long Colt ammo was gone. Of course they soon got rid of the horses and acquired 1911's and Thompson's as well as motorcycles.
When you mention feet per second requirements my brain is wondering what kind of chronograph equipment was in use during the early 1900s. I think that would make for an interesting video if you had access to any of the earlier examples. A rudimentary history of the chronograph would suffice. I'm totally down for such an endeavor. Thumbs up if anyone else is interested.
Well now that ya mention it yeah that would be a good question to be asked
They used a hung steel target with distance marks behind it, and a camera that would capture pictures of the target as it moved backwards. The fact that you know the weight of the bullet, the weight of the target, and the distance it was moved lets you do some physics math and determine the velocity of the bullet.
4getting0 Mostly Ballistic pendulums and stuff. They talk about it a little on inrange in their video on the Guncrafter Industries .50 GI 1911 and Glock
Before there were any chronographs, there were ballistic pendulums. The pendulum had a known weight and so did the bullet, which was fired to hit it. It was then possible to calculate the velocity of the bullet from the deflection of the pendulum. When this was done during a mechanics lecture at the University of Cambridge, a college member with a sense of humour had arranged for a dead pigeon to fall from the lecture theatre ceiling and land with a bloody splash. The lecturer patiently inquired if that was it for now, at which point a second pigeon fell. Anyway, I think that in 1906 you may have been talking about a pendulum rather than a chronograph.
This classic experiment allowed my old physics teacher to keep a powerful air rifle in his lab, despite the disinclination of the headmaster (a Quaker) to allow any weapons in school, the grounds of which abounded in hares and partridges.
spinning paper discs were used as well , they used applied math and physics in those days no electronic gadgets
I know why they wanted the round to eject up instead of out the right side, they were probably on a firing line and the hot rounds were hitting the guy to the right , this happened to me in the marines at the range
While I'll likely never be able to bid/win a Historical Firearm, I do enjoy and appreciate the History you present about them. Thank you.
I bid what I am able to, which doesn't win, most if the time. Then I am able to say I tried! Good luck!
If you live in the US, then historical firearms are not that hard to come by. Maybe don't go for an ultra rare trials pistol, and instead go for something a little more common. You can get a 1903 Springfield, a trapdoor, a Krag, or any number of cool historical firearms for less than $1000. Many for less than $500.
Those trials in California sound like the three Stooges were doing the trials
Emilio Singh Moe: when were you ever attacked by an angry Filipino with a knife?
Curly: Last week at the craps game on the docks nuck nuck nuck
I'm a victim of circumstance!
@@Tadicuslegion78 okay I would pay money for stage play
At some point someone's hat will definitely fly off.
@@moosemaimer I look forward to this on Inrange
Absolutely love the 05, 07, and 08/09. They're truly items from the old world. Beautiful.
Quite modern looking for 1907. Nice and informative video as always Ian!
The School of Musketry was in Kalifornia? How far we have come, and things have not changed for the better. Great quote from that Lieutenant. He either suffered from the elitism of the time, or he had a good grasp of the caliber of men at the time and the effectiveness of basic training. Or a combination of both. I think i heard somewhere (Jeff Cooper's writings maybe) that the original .45 ACP ammo had a 200 gr flatnose or truncated cone bullet. Or maybe that was the prototype version? If the Thompson/LaGarde recomnendations had been followed exactly, we would have wound up with 455 Webley Auto in a non-Webley auto, possibly still the 1911 (some were made for Britain, i know). As far as 45 ACP, someone remembered the 45 Schofield. The ballustics are almost the same, same bullet weight and the ACP might be ever so slightly faster. It is always fascinating to see the evolution of trials guns. Probably just as well that we did not wind up with 38 ACP. Its ballistics are about the same as 9x19, with a 130 gr bullet as opposed to 124 (at that time). Great video as always. Thank you
Lieutenant Bernet or whatever his name: "TL;DR: The requirement of an IQ of 100 or more makes this gun too dangerous"
Not an unreasonable notion for any fussy, experimental equipment - you want smart, dedicated, switched-on guys. Damn near nobody had experience with semi-autos, they were too new, the grip angle was totally different and weird. After decades of movies and games subconsciously showing you how to grip and fire a semi-auto, a modern civilian wouldn't have the "what the hell is this and how do I make it work" problems guys at the time would have, and the training scars from only ever shooting revolvers. Malfunction drill? Tap rack bang? Nobody taught that yet.
By definition, half of the population has an IQ of 100 or less.
@@Ni999 also, if you have an IQ of less than 83 you legally cannot join the military...
Remember, one of the guys from the school of musketry fired it with his thumb under the hammer, so I can see the point lol
Well, that lets out this group. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_100,000
God. If I had the money, I’d be bidding on this piece...
This was honestly great. Such a well done history lesson. I never knew semi automatic pistols went that far back.
Ive been going back and watching Mr.Colt45's videos on these early colt automatics. old but gold
If something is foolproof, it hasn't been issued to the troops yet^^
*M1911* :"Daddy, is that you?"
It was in 1906, he left to go try out for the army, never came back,
he did write often though, about things he wished he'd done better.
@@kathrynck *M1911 jumping and waving* "I promise to make You proud Dad! I promise!"
"The conclusion that they came to what that the small caliber stuff just didn't have much effect on cows, (so) the new U.S. Army cartidge needed to be at least .45 caliber..."
I sort of drifted in the first part of this video and didn't realize he was talking about the Thompson-Lagarde tests and my attention returned on that line. I immediately wondered when anti-bovine effectiveness was an actual concern for military usage.
Well for cavalry use, a pistol needed to be able to stop a horse. And I suppose cows were cheaper than horses to used for testing.
@@RedXlV ...was that actually a thing at the TL tests? Makes practical sense, but I've never seen that referenced. On the other hand I haven't looked into it much.
This is valuable history.
1911 lovers nwed to watch and save this one. Thanx Ian.
They probably got the vertical ejection idea from the Luger
I think because in a charge you would not want the rounds hitting your brothers faces and instead flying over your heads
26$ in 1906 would be around 745$ today.
Well this is a decend price.
Eh, more like $1500-2000, based on the price of gold.
@@ScottKenny1978 especially since the federal reserve wasn't established yet.
@@orneryokinawan4529 true, but the price of gold was fixed up until Nixon's administration. 1973, I think.
Before 1929, gold was fixed as $20 per ounce. Even after the Federal Reserve was created, the price of gold was re-fixed to $35 an ounce in 1934. It then started to float in 1968.
Not that re-fixing the price of gold now would help. The world's economy is now so large that an ounce of gold would have to be worth a couple hundred thousand dollars to back every country's currency. Even if the US bought all the gold in the world, and all the gold mined per year, the price of gold would have to be over $10k an ounce to back the US dollar with gold.
Oh, George! Not the livestock!
I hate cows worse than coppers
He's bona fide. What are you?
"969 rounds." Nice.
Working now but looking forward to this, thank you Ian!👍
I'm not even into firerms except for historical interest, but your level of depth and knowledge is just outstanding, and makes great viewing for any level of interest in the history, and workings, and even politics, of firearms manufacturing. Ian you are a wealth of information, scholar, and a true gem!
In that case, please look up the biography of John Moses Browning.
You will find some parts of his history not to your liking but in the end he became a legend.
"They brought in some livestock and some cadavers. To see what happened when they shot the cadavers and how the livestock reacted to being shot."
That just escalated from 0 to 1000 real fucking quick
Looking forward to those coming videos you mentioned.
Man, this is like a history channel, but it's actually about auction house selling guns. Amazing. Great presentation, RIA is lucky to have you presenting their lots. Im in another country and I'm not their client, but i know what they sell and for how much. I can probably field strip that gun too. Today my mind was blown.
I here the word Philippines, hmmm, The warriors called "Huromentados" or fearless bull are very difficult to kill using .38 caliber revolver, they need 6 to 8 shots of 38 to kill only one warrior. So they introduced the Remington shotgun and Winchester rifle to kill those tribe warriors. Then after that they introduced the 1911A1 Colt 45 ACP pistol. In one shot , the warriors of the Philippines can't beat the legendary power of 45 ACP
No they went back to .45 Long Colt Revolvers.
The M1911 did not enter service until after.
Ian mentions it in the video.
It has to be said that the .38 Long Colt is the weakest 9mm cartridge ever adopted by any Army in the world.
@@neutronalchemist3241 Really, not even 32 ACP?
@@ArcturusOTE amazingly, it looks like 38 long colt was only marginally more powerful than 32. according to wikipedia, the 38 long colt had around 167 ftlbs of energy with black powder, then 185 with smokeless. 32 acp is in that range of energy, the loads wikipedia has range from from 123 ftlbs to 177 ftlbs. interstingly, while the 32 and 38 long colt have very similar energy, the 32 is a 60-70 grain bullet going just around 1000 fps, while the 38 long colt is a 125-150 grain bullet at 700-800fps.
so basically, 38 long colt ballistics is a bullet with the diameter and weight of common 9mm loads, but going 100-200 fps slower than your average 230 grain 45 and 400-500 fps slower than a modern 9mm load with a similar bullet weight. I see why they had issues with effectiveness, it actually produces similar energy to .22, not even kidding
The greatest service pistol in history? That's the Hi-Power.
Yeah, I was thinking that there's only an indirect link between these trials pistols and the greatest service pistol in history.
I checked the Lot Number for that and saw right below it the 1909 and a 1910! Holy Crap! Grail Guns! Can't wait to see what comes up next!
I really enjoyed hearing a first hand account of what people thought of the gun in the time period!
Browning delt with that on a regular basis. Time and again people thought his ideas were crazy, only to be slacked jawed at his results.
Very kool video Gun Jesus.... I would have loved to see you field strip this one though I am very curious to see the major differences....
How easily the magazine was bent? Were they just bending them deliberately or to prove a point something? Maybe they also complained that lightbulbs break when you hurl them to the floor and spoons bend when you grasp them at each end and exert force on them as well? I mean if a mag was in its correct storage pouch I can't see how it would get bent unless you were actually trying to bend it.
James Walsh you see the same complaints today when people damage GI style AR mags
That comment was generated by someone who just didn't like the gun, and would abuse it as much as they possibly could to generate 'bad reviews'. The behavior is absolutely still seen today.
Very cool piece of history.
I feel so much better now. The more you know 😎 you have had a really busy Easter weekend CONGRATULATIONS Sir.
I like the wipe from gun to gun, your effort was noticed.
Thank you , Ian .
Imagine being the range officer at the trials and Colt introduce themselves by going "yeah so we shot a bunch of cows and dead people and this is what we came up with".
7:50
Interesting approach for a loaded chamber indicator, considering that Ruger’s LC9 that I bought in 2011 has a similar feature. Nonetheless, later 9mm variants in compact 9mm from Ruger d not feature this.
I was caught up in that story, Ian! You left us hanging! When's part 2?
If anyone is curious about the Philippines comment near the beginning check out c&rsenal’s “trench gun” video
Hell go check out that entire channel while you're there
I've encountered people in the past that talked about how much of a debacle the pistols trials were for the eventual adoption of the 1911. Honestly, based on a lot of these videos, I have no idea where they get that. The requirements seem fair and the length of testing was reasonable for a brand new auto loader pistol.
"Revolver loving luddites"
Revolvers have their strenghs, they are cheap and simple... Like their moms.
Gotta love a trials pistol!
"and those stories will be coming" Fuck I was hoping it was just the up next video
John Moses Browning, one of the greatest contributors to the firearms world.
That's a bold comment you made there...
Heresy, you dishonor him. He wasn't one of the greatest. He was The Greatest fire arms designer in history and even today. For so great was he that an entire company worships him and every weapon they make is meant to please his spirit.
How are you Ian hope you’re doing well. 🙏🏽
I thought it was a odd pistol Sam Jackson had (TWO!) in shoulder holster in Kong Skull Island.. Similar but I think they're listed as 1902 Colts.
On 2Wheels That’s what those were! I always thought they looked to angular for 1911s.
I came to the comments section just to look for this exact comment. Internet Movie Firearms Database. Lol
I doubt those were real...
I'm pretty sure they were Star Model B's, the same pistol his character carried in Pulp Fiction.
@@comando293 Very likely. Stars got used a lot as stand ins for the 1911 because to this day 9mm blanks are cheaper and easier to get and until recently were more reliable than .45ACP blanks. On IMFD it's amazing how many WWII movies the "1911s" are actually Stars.
6:00 Since this was a cavalry trial, one supposes the desired top ejection over side ejection has something to do with the horse. Your horse or the horse next to you.
and they were right(about avg troopers).. thus the M1-Carbine.
Some of those guys must've either been sadists or kicked in the head once too often by a cow. What serious insights could you hope to get from shooting a live 700+ kg cow when you're really interested in the effects of different calibres on a 70 - 90 kg human?
I mean, in today's world with widespread obesity, perhaps the cow-test would be valid again ... but back then?
They probably thought, well if it will kill a cow it will do fine against a human.
I mean we use pigs nowadays, but only because of their skin and tissue density being similar to a human.... tattoo artists also practice on pig skin, and used to practice on live pigs until just a few years ago (possibly swine flu or foot-in-mouth put a end to it)
Cavalry were still a thing, so you might need to shoot a massive 4-legged beast and the guy riding it (or shoot horses hauling away enemy artillery pieces/ammo wagons). Cows are cheaper than horses, and once you shoot them you can use them for meat without as many complaints - so a budget friendly option.
What's funny is how completely subjective the Thompson-LaGarde tests were. In the first go around the .30 luger dropped the cow and the .455 required a hammer to the head. They then changed the testing standards since that didn't show what the Army wanted to see... In a nutshell the test would be laughed at today, and the end conclusions were.... No pistol caliber can reliably stop a man and the projectile should be flat and soft lead.... So the .45 230gr round nose fmj actually didn't coincide with the test recommendations. In fact that type of projectile was rated the same as the 9mm fmj projectiles. So in some ways you could say the conclusions had some similarities to current thinking, but that part was ignored by the Army.
this is wonderful, thanks
The "issues in the Philippines" that he alludes to here consisted of extremely angry badass locals with machetes that kept charging through .38 fire and still managed to hack through a bunch of US soldiers before going down.
"Civilize them with a krag"
Their words, not mine!
Not exactly, turns out before engaging in combat those particular locals would take a drug which today would count as a form of lsd. Combined with their ferocity anything shy of a krag rifle wouldn't stop them. Then again they were dead when the bullets hit the heart but the lack of feeling meant they could still fight for a few more seconds.
The Filipino Army still has trouble with that tribe to this day.
seth Thomas
Somewhere in the Philippines, a yelling match can be heard:
"Stop taking LSD and SURRENDER already! Dammit!"
"NO!!! And you can't make me, so there bleh."
Drugs are a hell of a drug.
.38 colt was ballistically like a .32 acp
Ian's videos and American heroes channel = gold.. your the man Ian
I bet it garners a small fortune. Very cool and iconic pistol.
Last time I was this early we were still ordering entrees at gun Jesus's farewell dinner
Luddites...lol! “I ain’t shootin no fancy pants pistol!”
That 1905 extractor goes on forever.
1907 also does the same thing.
Looks good
Could you do a video on the history of the 1911 getting out onto the commercial market? I'm assuming that a lot of them just happened to get "accidentally" lost in the bottoms of soldiers' bags and discovered upon returning home.
I think as soon as Colt had enough production going to keep the military happy they immediately started commercial line production as well. That had been their MO for the Single Action Army and the various swing-out cylinder 38s. I believe the commercial lines were where they converted to make 1911s in the .455 Webley-Scott round under contract for Britain and Canada in WWI.
Pretty sure that my great grandfather did that after WWII.
Makes you wonder whether Custer's boys lost at Little Big Horn, because of loading the Springfield Trapdoor via the muzzle.
Terrific design the Colt, Brownings, and dare I say it the tokarov (which to me is a similar design to the colt 1911). Still decent weapons , if ammo capacity isn't a concern. I mean compared to today's high ammo capacity pistols. Overall comfortable reliability twinned with 45calibre stopping power makes them terrific pistols
If the men prefer the 38 kaliber makes you wonder how they would had liked one in 9mm Parabellum, still better firepower then 38 Colt, just a litle less then 45 ACP?
That .38 had less energy than the .380 ACP (9×17). Not sure it was the power that they liked so much as the old revolver action.
One of the complaintes about the 45 was that it was hard for a beginner to shoot, and also that of today almost all tactical pistols is in 9mm Parabellum.
@@Ni999 .38acp was closer to a std pressure 9mm than .380. Typically 1050-1150 fps with 130-115 gr. Ah, just realized you were referring to the .38 colt, in that case, yes even less than a .38 spcl from a snubby. I think the Army would have been better suited with .38acp as JMB originally chambered his guns. It would have been easier to shoot with an xtra rd or 2 as well and a step up from even .38 spcl.
I wonder if the process you mentioned to determine an appropriate caliber/cartridge was reviewed when the US military switched to 9mm.
C96 ejects out the top and the brass keeps hitting me in the head unless I am under cover.
Either that or it bounces off the gun on the way down; damn brass never seems to land anywhere else.
I knew about the 1905, 1907 and 1911, but I think I my dog ate my notes on the other ones. Now that you have started this Lineage History, you have to finish it, Ian. Same Bat time. Same Bat channel.
I wonder if the top ejection vs side ejection request was because they were thinking if you fired it in a trench with other men close to you the shells would hit the guys in the face
Thanks for properly referring to this an an "automatic"!
Funny thing about the Thompson-Lagarde tests is that .30 Luger won the live cattle trial handily only needing one shot to kill a 1500 pound animal, most of the .45 guns they shot the cattle with ran out of ammo and they had to beat the cows to death with a big hammer, and then they had to rig the cadaver tests to show that .45 was better. The cadaver test was specifically made to show which cartridge had the most energy in the least scientific way possible, by hanging corpses by meat hooks and shooting them to see which one swings the most. They could've just used math to find the ft/lbs of energy each round had, but instead they got a skinny corpse and shot it with a .45 and then shot a fat corpse with a .38 and said " oh look the .45 swung that corpse an eighth of an inch more, .45 wins." And that's the story of how .45 ACP was adopted.
I don't know what Thompson-Lagarde report you read but here's the summary for Animal Test #11:
11th Animal: Cow, weighing, approximately, 1100 lbs.
Full jacketed bullet from Luger Pistol 9 M/M.
10:15 A.M. Animal was shot from left to right.
There was an interval of one minute between the second and third shots,
due to a hitch in the working of the pistol. At 10:18:15 A.M., when the
animal had been shot eight times, there was a short inverval on
account of reloading the magazine. Two shots were fired through the
abdomen; at this time the animal was bleeding from the mouth. After
twelve shots had been fired the cow was still standing and had to be killed by the
hammer. Ten shots were fired through the lungs and two through the
abdomen in this experiment.
POST MORTEM: There were four perforations in the
right lung and seven through the left lung. The perforations in the
lungs were principally away from the main vessels. The amount of
contusion was well marked around the channel tracks but was not as great as
was found in the case of the 0.45 Caliber Colt’s Revolver (ninth
animal). Two bullets perforated the paunch; the intestines were
uninjured. Six bullets were recovered, three practically undeformed, two
slightly dented at the points and one slightly mushroomed.
unblinkingeye.com/Guns/TLGR/TLGR4/tlgr4.html
It seems to me that you're talking about a different cartridge. The so called .30 Luger is 7,65×21, and the report goes on like this
'2nd Animal: Stag, weighing approximately about the same as the first animal.
Full jacketed bullet from Luger Pistol 7.65 M/M.
Animal shot through lungs from left to right. Dropped at the end of thirty seconds. Perceptibly shocked when hit. Blood flowed at once from nostrils; was in death struggle at end of three minutes.
POST MORTEM: The bullet perforated both lungs and cut the posterior aorta. The amount of contusion surrounding the channel track is not quite so extensive as we found it with the 0.476 Colt’s revolver. The posterior mediastinum was filled with blood from the injured aorta and the amount of hemorrhage in thorax was due to cutting of the artery. The bullet emerged on the opposite side between the eighth and ninth ribs, perforated the skin and was lost. In this case the bullet, in going in and out, did not strike any rib. Death in this case was so manifestly due to the hemorrhage from injory to the aorta, a vital part, that the Board deemed it advisable to repeat the experiment in order to secure a comparative test.'
@@F1ghteR41 Quite true. But what puts the lie to the original poster's "conspiracy theory" was the postmortem comment that the single bullet pierced the aorta. When we turn to the quick firing portion of the test and the 7.65mm Luger we see:
10th Animal: cow, weighing, approximately 950 lbs.
Full jacketed bullet from Luger Pistol 7.65M/M.
9:57:30 A.M. Animal was shot through the chest from
left to right, ten times; the animal did not fall. Owing to a hitch in
the working of the pistol, there was an interval of one minute between
the third and fourth shots, and a short interval between the eighth and
ninth shots, due to reloading. The other shots were fired in rapid
succession. The animal was more or less excited during the firing. At
10:02 A.M. she was killed with the hammer.
POST MORTEM: There were three perforations in the
left lung near the edge of the posterior lobe, showing marked contusion;
not near so great, however, as in the previous case. The margin of the
posterior lobe on the right side was also perforated. The right lung
showed four perforations. Six perforations were found in the chest wall
on the left side, and some of these were large, indicating perforation
by more than one bullet. There were six perforations in the chest
all on the right side. Seven of the bullets were recovered under the
skin on the right side and one was lodged in the eighth rib. Four of
them were more or less mushroomed at the point and four only slightly so.
So once again, @hornmonk3zit and their description of the one shot performance of the 7.65 Luger has no basis in reality.
That firearm is currently 113 years old, crazy.
I kinda like the rounded grip at the top, instead of flat across like on all my 1911s.
Cool! Thanks Ian.
Rich.
Any good vids or written resources on the 45 ACP cartridge development? Would like to know more about how and why they went from the flat point 250+gr bullet to the round nose 230gr.
Hey, Minnesota Cavalry, hell ya.
With the adoption of the M17 and M18 (Sig 320's), sidearms are supposed to be issued much more widely, especially in the Cavalry. Finally. You didn't get them unless you were an officer, higher NCO, or certain guys on a CFV (Bradley) crew.
If you watch old episodes of "Hogan's Heros" you can often spot a 1905(ish) pistol. I think they used them more often than 1911s.
It looks like very close to the Steyr Hahn M1912
Ian, I am a dude living in the UK and I can possibly help your channel. I live relatively close to the Royal armouries in Leeds, england, and my dad has access to the NFC, being ex army. If I am able to help your channel by finding a weapon you haven't done within that establishment and help you lot at forgotten weapons by having a stream of weird weapons taht may be only within the NFC. If u could get back that would be awesome.
This, of course, will be when I am able to get back to the royal armouries
He's been to the RA multiple times... or at least made a shiiiiitload of videos for just one visit.
I'm glad you use cavalry instead of calvary ..
Oh crap, RIA has a collection of rare '1911's, and Gun Jesus is going to give us an incremental developmental history of it.
You say that like it's a bad thing!
So even in the early 1900's Californians were illiterate when it comes to firearms.
I didn't know that they had such a rich history in this matter.
There is an excellent article about the Thompson-LaGarde tests titled "The Holes in Stopping Power Theory" by Leon Day. It was originally published in Gun Digest Annual #37, and re-published in Gun Digest Treasury 6th Edition. What Day does is examine Thompson & LaGarde's detailed reports, where they stated what they actually did - what they shot, how they shot it, and what happened after they shot it. What Day concludes, and what I find difficult to argue with, is that nothing Thompson & LaGarde did supported their conclusions at all. What they did was incapable of supporting ANY conclusions, in fact. They shot far too few animal (only 13), of varied size and weight, while attempting to test 7 different cartridges. They shot animals with several different calibers of ammunition in succession and attempted to discern differences in effectiveness from that. Their work may have been a basis for deciding how to design more scientific tests, but that was never done. Basically, the Thompson-LaGarde tests were meaningless. If people find this controversial, they should read the Day article and argue against that.
The methodology doesn’t control for every variable since that wouldn’t be possible without the exact size animal each time, but the conclusions from that test are logical:
Shot placement is king. Hits to vitals are always better than hits to non-vitals.
Larger bullets create bigger holes and incapacitate targets quicker.
Ballistic gel would be a consistent medium developed later, but even after that, the idea that shot placement is vital and larger bullets cause greater bleed (hence why we use hollow points) remains true.
A terrific example of, "Nothing is fool proof to a talented fool.."
You have been blessed by Saint Browning to look at his pistol.
ide love to see you run a modern pistol match with one of these, or take a beater and tune it up for match duty!.lol
969 rounds of testing? Nice
They wanted it to eject out the top so adjacent shooters didn’t get hit with hot brass. That’s a guess but having been hit with hot brass on the firing line I am fairly confident with it.
I bet Fireplace guy has a much better example of that.
Who would have expected The School of Musketry to be a bunch of luddites.
Yet later tests, such as those conducted by the FBI I think, have suggested the difference in "stopping power" between 9mm paraballum and 45 acp is fairly small.
A few points there:
One, 9mm’s modern effectiveness primarily comes from hollow points allowing it to “punch above its weight” so to speak, which wasn’t available back then. Hell, even early 9mm hollow points failed spectacularly in the 1984 Miami Dade shootout, which is why .40S&W became a thing. The FBI specifically cited recent strides in bullet technology since then for why they made the switch back to 9mm.
Two, .45ACP is still better and even comments like “Medical examiners can’t tell the difference between wounds” doesn’t account for the fact that even a small change in absolute terms for tissue damage is a massive difference in percentage terms (.45ACP hollow points are generally around 50% - 60% larger wound channels than 9mm) and therefore number of rounds. Mathematically, 2 .45s do as much, if not more, tissue damage and therefore greater wound channels than 3 9mms (and I can show the math if need be).
But modern 9mm is adequate performance for most situations, so adequate performance at a much cheaper price with better availability and more options (thanks to being the NATO standard) trump the best performance, especially since those mundane benefits are more likely to be relevant in most scenarios.
So this bad boy is the M16 of pistols.
Whoever buys this, please, please, please lend it to C&Rsenal for their 1911 extravaganza!
I've heard it claimed that top-eject is easier to clean than side-eject, but I've no idea why or if it's even true.
My late Dad left me one of these or a very similar model. To me it looks identical. No loaded chamber indicator or grip safety though. I would love to know about it!
I thought now would be a good a time as any to buy one of your books. I tried searching for it on google and found the kick starter page. I completely mis-read the number and thought that only $800 and 25 cents had been pledged and was kind of confused and disappointed...
Then I read it again... $800,256, when 25,000 had been the target, wow
Get back into your house get back back into your damn house