RESISTANCE OF THE BLACK TEMPLARS! COULD THEY TURN ON GUILLIMAN?
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- Опубликовано: 29 авг 2024
- Hi all Rho here! Today we discuss the Faith and resistance of the Black Templars. How not all of them are accepting of Guilliman's new Primaris...
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we are discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. As well as a specific warning for the Dawn of Fire novel "Throne of Light" by Guy Hayley. As always I really recommend you read the stories for yourself first. As that's the best way to enjoy the lore, for yourself!
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Disobeying the Lord Commander, their Chapter Master and killing a Custodes and his accompanying Torchbearer fleet has got to have serious consequences
Nah I'm sure they are fine since Girlyman is the reason why the split happened.
They're the black Templars, they do what they want.. 😎
Like they give a fuck, they are legion strenght
Yeah, they've been very naughty! But they absolutely don't give a shit. I wonder what would have happened if Sigismund was still alive and had given the order to accept the Primaris?!
@@Stein871 even a legion couldn’t do anything against a Custodes fleet. They are no longer chained to Terra. The Black Templars should get their shit beat in.
Murdering a custodian? Yeah, for there to not be huge lore inconsistency there needs to be some heads that roll. Helbrecht himself could get censured if the Inquisition gets word of this. The custodes themselves could move to purge the chapter of renegades.
Honestly, if Colquan gets half a word about this...
yeahhhhhhhh that ain't gonna be fun for helbrecht
More likely I think is Helbrecht, either of his own free will(as a loyal imperial subject) or being forced into it, going on a crusade of his own to purge heresy in his own chapter with all due haste.
@@Elldallan more like a penitent crusade
@@Scythe592 Yeah that's a better name for it :D
@@alek7998 All space marines are almost traitors in his mind, so if he finds out a single custodes has dies because of "loyal" space marines, I almost have a hard time seeing him asking for permission if not just outright telling Roboute they are going to kill them right away, with or without his help
Given the fact the primaris now outnumber the first born, they murdered their own high marshal and a custodian the ecclesiarchy has little room to protest. Guilliman can simply direct Helbrech to wipe them out supported by custodes or have custodes and Space Wolves render judgement if he's not up to it. Definitely can't let this level of insubordination go without a swift and brutal answer.
Helbrecht would want to address this in-house, if possible. They're rebelling against Primaris in a Chapter with a Primaris High Marshall and a Primaris Reclusiarch. The Templars can't tolerate this.
They would have to face a court, anything else would force a civil war. They are the Emperpors, not Gulimans to command.
@@yeoldchief7711 Gulliman is basically the emperor right now, since the emperor is a quadriplegic. Guilliman also is the only reason the imperium is alive due to making the Indomidus crusade. It would also be suicide for the astartes to rebel against a primarch (they would get owned)
The death of a Custodes is the highest of offenses here. You can't hide behind the pretense you are loyal to the emperor when you kill off one of his personal body guards!
@@steffanyschwartz7801 What if Guilliman instead of sending Primaris to the black templars, gave them more powerful wargear instead? I don't think Guilliman wants to risk getting on their badside at all so he could do that or just leave them be.
You do not refuse The Emperor's Gift and not suffer the consequences. Especially killing one of his Custodes.
Killing a Custodes is beyond heretical
@@Subject_Keter Just because the Custodes only answer to the Emperor doesn't mean Astartes answer to them. Custodes and Astartes have a complicated relationship and i'm sure it's not a rare occurrence for one to kill another.
@@standarddeviation7963 The thing with the Custodes is: They are supposed to represent the Emperor's will. There is nobody closer and more loyal to the Emperor than his 10 000. Going against a custodian when you're a servant of the God-Emperor would be absolutely considered heretical.
It would be similar to killing a primarch. Inconceivable.
@@Matihood1 so does the inquisition :P
No one kills a golden boy expecting no consequences.
The consequence is one less Emperor forsaker in the galaxy, killing the golden janitors and the blasphemous offspring of caul is a blessing upon the Imperium.
I liked someone saying "he's not our Primarch" and it made me think that if you put the shoe on the other foot, I wonder if the Ultramarines honestly would have accepted reforms so meekly. It's never challenged due to in-universe popularity and numbers, but consider this:
"We will be adding these Primaris, improving how Ultramar is governed due to the threat of Nurgle, and you will assent to the word of Vulkan. Changes need to be made to the Codex Astartes."
"The will of Dorn and the Custodians have given you these thousands of new warriors, overseen by his project and Belisarius Cawl."
I don't see Sicarius or Ventris taking it that well.
At the moment he is the Primarch, he has the Emperor's sword, he has spoken with the Emperor.
At the moment he's just being polite, if he wanted to he could declare the lmperial chickens excommunicate tratoris by the Emperor's will and another civil war would erupt.
As three fifths of space marine chapters are of ultramarine geneseed it would give Gulliman a big advantage.
@Timothy Lyons Three fifths (I don't even know that that's accurate but we will assume it is) who all fight the same and have literally written a book on how they do it which all the other marines have access to.
Well he wrote the book, and Ultramar is/was/is his by right, so this is different.
Yes they would be upset, as they talked smack about the 3rd founding, but that's what they would do not bloody kill them.
I think the Ultramarines would have enough Grace to wait for the proper time to talk about and NOT kill a Custodei.
I think the Ultrasmackaronis would like to figure out how to use their new brothers gifts but the main issue would be "What would Dorn do?"
the Ultras would have done what was best for the Imperium....without question.
They always have
My favorite chapter killing one of the golden janitors is beyond hilarious.
I'm curious what it cost them to pull it off, Custodes don't go down easy.
@@Nyghtking If I had to guess. That crusade and all the black templars in it are going to be purged.
@@Nyghtking My guess having not read the story would be void combat the Templars are fleet based and very good.
@@JsphCrrll Damn sure won't be community service.
Having read the book.
The chaplain conceded that the custodes wiped out a significant number. Nearly half. Also not all of the BTs turned on the primaris torch bearers. There was a vote and those who agreed to welcome the primaris were killed, including the Marshall leading the crusade.
When the reinforcement primaris arrived the crusade was on its last legs. The crusade ultimately died in this book. Only a primaris Sargent and neophyte survived
imagine if the emperor himself sends the black templars a vision just showing them how disapointed he is in their heresy, dont excomunicate them, dont kill them, do to them what will hurt them the most, show them that it is they who have commited heresy and acted against their god
But he doesn't.
Just imagine if that happened, I think that would probably cause them tomaybe even change their name and take up a path of redemption, i'm thinking some would take up the title of Flagellants.
Flagellants are religious individuals that believe that by beating themselves with a flail they can purify themselves by making themselves suffer for their sins.
Than most would join Helbrect (which most of them likely already do) while the hardliners are still coping by saying that Big E is a Daemon
Word bearing 2.0
@@mattfox2716 Now with less 90% less heresy.
Imagine how much that one Custody has been pissed off, when he was called by some fanatics traitor of the Emperor. Here is the diffrence between faithfull and fanatical
Yup, the custodes stood by the emperor since their creation, they have gauded him since he was place on the golden thrown 10,000 years ago, and unlike the astartes not a single Custodes has ever fallen to chaos, gone rongue, or turned traitor, so to have some zealot call them a traitor , especially since it was the astartes who caused all of this in the first place and the Custodes don't like the atartes much because of that, would probably piss them off massively.
I think a great turn to this is Helbrecht coming down on them in fury and at his side the Sisters of Battle and a team of Custodes
Obviously Black Templar wont be renegade, they are one of the most popular chapters.
Not just that, but they might be the single most powerful chapter (Not counting The Angels ability to reform a chapter etc etc)
But the estimates of the Black Templar numbers are absolutly INSANE
Love the BTs, but let’s face it they’re the 40k hardcore Word Bearers with a splash of World Eaters. Someone should remind them what caused the heresy.
Why World Eaters? Because they engage heavily in melee? So are Blood Angels tho...
@@Matihood1 because of Sigismunds bond with Kharn back in the day. That’s the whole reason they chain their weapons to the wrist. Can’t help but feel they’re what the World Eaters could’ve been with out the nails 🤔
@@tenajnin And without the whole Emperor worshipping lol. But yea, good point. I forgot about the whole chaining weapons to the wrist thing.
You need to read more heresy, particularly the fight between Kharne and Sigismund. The BT are what they were meant to be as soon as the black sword was unsheathed
@@yeoldchief7711 I’ve read all the HH novels. Cold, zealous/righteous fury is very different to pure unfocused rage. But this is why the lore is so brilliant, we all have our own takes on things and affinity to certain factions/legions 😊
Helbrecht will be apoplectic. He has crossed the Rubicon Primaris himself and so has his second, Grimaldus. These few Templars will be purged, and the Chaplain should be made an example of. Roboute's words reminding Helbrecht of what the Sword of High Marshals used to be and who owned it, and why it was broken, but then reforged will keep the Black Templars true. Hopefully..
Guiliman honestly would let them be, if they simply rejected Primaris, but killing his man and Custody is big nono. It is act of betreayal in all but name and for mw they are exactly the same category like Lord Inquisitor from Months of Shame
He will probably not find out. The guilty are already dead, and the last two witnesses won't talk too anyone but Guilliman. He will be diplomatic and keep this on the downlow.
@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen No, there times when he is diplomatic, like with Ecclisiarchy, but merciless for traitors like in case of High Lords. Beside you don't seem to know how pissed he was after Lorgar betreyal and what he did shortly after
@@macshadow1150 ohh I have read "No no fear" and "Betrayer" twice each. Guilliman has a Primarchs temper no doubt. But 50 Primaris and one Custodian isn't near enough for him to be mad about. He leads hundreds of thousands of Primaris now. The guilty are dead already and The Templar high command is on his side already. Nothing will come of this.
Not a chance, independence is part of the Black Templars creed. As long as they are loyal to the Emperor, the worse that would happen is some kind of penance crusade.
And people give Dark Angels shit for blowing up one of their ships
I think it's just appeasement on GW's part. Give those who dislike the Primaris the slightest hint of "maybe they won't replace all Firstborn" and do nothing with it beyond that.
the Firstborn are the new Thunder Warriors. They need to accept their fate and trust in the Emperors Will.....all else is Heresy
Only named characters. There’s no way they’d replace Helbrecht, Calgar, or Dante
@@johanstinson that's according to guilliman, he could have been bullshitting the imperium all this time.
@@KameSennin4209 you dare call into question the honesty of Lord Guilliman?
That sounds suspiciously like Heresy.
@@johanstinson guilliman stans the heritic bellesarius cawl. What's the real heresy here? A non-believer and a renegade tech-priest tampering with the emperor's work definitely fits the bill.
You got to give it to the Black Templars. They literally had the balls to not only defy the lord commander, their own high marshall and kill one of the emperor's chosen custodies. All under the premise of their loyal fanaticism to the emperor himself. Would be interesting to see what happens next. Gman really has to maneuver this in a way that will not spiral into an all out civil war. (Which we all know Guilliman is tactical enough to do). The custodes on the other hand would be out for blood. Now thats a fight we all know the custodes would most definitely win.
Yes, you don’t mess with the custodias. I would not wanna be that branch of the black Templer‘s.
@@deemerwm to brand the emperors most loyal of servants heretics is kind of funny. Seeing how the custodes are the last people you should be saying that to. These black templars seem to be unhinged.
yea unfortunately its prob out of gmans hands, the custodes only answer to the big E, and they are not going to be happy having one of their own labeled a traitor and then killed unjustly. this isnt going to end well for the BT
@@specter86fl the BT's absolute devotion to the worship of the Big E has really blinded them to the actions that they took. The custodes indeed will want heads to roll over this betrayal.
They didn’t know Helbrecht had already accepted them...
It takes a very special kind of madness to accuse a Custodian of heresy.
As a Black Templars player I've been in countless social media discussions about the addition of Primaris to the chapter and whether Cawl is continuing the Emperor's holy work or committing unforgivable heresy. It's divided the players and I think it's great Guy Hayley has found a way to reflect that in the lore.
40k lore is, and always has been, driven by the game rather than a narrative. The reason it's grimdark is to allow two players to bring any army to the table and know there's a reason to fight, be they enemies or on the same side.
Personally, I side with Helbrecht and have a mostly Primaris army now. But I fully support my treacherous brethren who choose to play with just first-born and non-floating tanks. This is what makes 40k great.
They killed a Custodes, and had the audacity to call HIM the heretic? If I'm Guilliman, I'd return the dead custodes body to his brothers and tell them exactly who did it. And if the Ecclisiarchy has something to say about, there's a certain dreadnought in hiding that am sure the Inquisition would love to have a chat about where/who the Ecclisiarchy's teachings originated from!
That’s for sure! Guliman shouldn’t have spared that dreadnought!
@@harambememorialpage It's kind of funny really, because while the impirium is a desiccated corpse of what it once was, religion might be the one thing holding whats left together, a dictatorship tends to only last as long as it's ruler, while religion can live well beyond those that found it.
So t is perhaps a good thing that the dreadnought was spared.
@@Nyghtking This being 40k, i can TOTALLY see some plot that was like "by letting him do that, we can redirect all your souls.. to the true gods!" And bam Chaos Gods who actually got off their nasty ass gamer chairs.
We need a black templars game like the new grey knights game please
The black temper chapter master is going to be pissed when he hears about this.
I cannot even imagine the volcanic fury that Helbrecht will lay down.
@@norricdaoc8746 I'm more worried one of black temper Crusade Fleet may start coming after every primaris and killing them.
he won't, the Primaris that found out the truth and the last neophyte decided to bury it
@@vontheunknown7982 that is scary, and very very possible.
They should be shamed, stripped of their title of black Templar, their armour repainted in the colours of penitence and rebranded as: the pink templars!🙃
Emperor's champion against the Emperor's chosen Primarch.
Don't think it would turn out well for the Black Templars.
Gulliman, " let the wolves of Fenris loose".
Idk how well that might go for the wolves
Uhm, yeah them Space Wolfs... uh sent us another cyber husky arguing with its owner.... they would tell you to lick your own... listen they want more chew toys. Till then they got eyes on you sir. They think your a heretic for sleeping with that Eldar queen of sorts... and cheeky lil dastardly requested the vid for review...
@@bmorebread8993 pretty well, given that the wolves were created to specifically counter astartes.
would the wolves even agree with bobby g in that regard
@@kenrudd6362 Bobby G took a knee to Logan Grimnar as a mark of respect and reminding him that he had the Emperor's sword and his blessing.
Now about a small band of Black Templars.
They would be smoked. If the Celestial Lions chapter was wiped out for wanting to rat out some nameless inquisitors these rogue Templers would be done after what they did.
Inquisition has tried and failed to take on the Black Templars before, being fleet based, they can get to Terra and demand to stand trial, something the Inquisition hates. Now if this were to go to trial, the Gulliman could be in for a mother load of manure
I love how dangerous the black templars chapter is. Probably the strongest chapter for real.
Custodian: "Accept the Primarch's gift, or be seen as a heretic".
BTCrusade: "No U".
I mean by that standard what’s the difference between them and the alpha legion they also think they are serving the emperor in their own way lol
Strongest through dint of numbers only.
Or just a bunch of loonies going down the Lorgar drain 😄
@@thomasalegredelasoujeole9998 Just give them time.
Got to love those Alpha legion agents!! They know how to manipulate the loyalties space marines, especially the Black Templars! So zealous, they are blind!
I smelled that too
Good angle. I like it
That’s for sure.
It's mentioned in the novel that all known crusade forces that are in contact with officio logisticarum HAVE accepted the primaris, as per Helbrecht's orders. As such the angevin crusade is a massive outlier, enough so that guilliman PERSONALLY sent a pious primaris marine from the sons of dorn to make contact with them. As far as we know, the VAST MAJORITY of the Black Templars have accepted the Primaris, to one degree or another.
The emperor protects roboute. He is his favourite (tool). The bt should learn this
"My last tool... My last.. hope."
imagine how pissed off Kitten would be once he hears one of his oiled compatriots killed off by the Lunatic Templars.
He’d be livid!
Just blame it on the Tau 🤣😂
15 years ago Black templar were my favorite and first attempt at the hobby. But after hearing Guillimon’s perspective on the false idolizing of the Emperor I’m really rethinking so much about the current state of the Imperium🤔
Killing a Custodes? Do you want to get Space Wolves? Because this is how you get Space Wolves.
Space Puppies would not like the taste of Black Templar, particularly if it came to fleet combat. Remember that the Pussy beat the Puppy when the Puppy went full retard and the Pussy was holding back.
Black templars and Space wolves vs Black Templars and Custodes. Who will win?
I'm loving it. About time Marines start pushing back. In the lore this should be the greatest heresy. Improving on the God Emperors work. HERESY!!!!
I love my angry boys
The God Emperor: b b… but, I improved it! 😮
I’d love to see some civil war story where Guilliman and the custodes puts Helbrecht and the Templars accountable and they have to redeem themselves by “dealing with” this renegade fleet. Seeing brothers of the same chapter versing each other, having different ideologies and the renegade fleet being heartbroken seeing Helbrecht, Grimaldus, and many of their brothers already converted to primaris and Helbrecht & Grimaldus being heartbroken that they have to execute their first born brothers to redeem their chapter.
Meanwhile rogal and the lion are sitting in the corner wondering where it went wrong
Didn't Grimaldus and become Primaris? I guess that did nothing to ease their acceptance.
Well... this was just a small crusade wqith fuck in the head chaplin
Yeah I was wondering about that.
Both Helbrecht and Grimaldus have undergone the surgery to become primaris. I imagine that this message didn't get to the crusading fleet in question.
@@snakeyman5560 I’ve got a feeling this is going to become a very short-lived crusade.
@@deemerwm they are going to mysteriously disappear in a flash of golden armor and power lances
@@specter86fl HA! Capt, I cannot disagree with you there. You just don't mess with a Custodes. EVER.
Custodes and Black Templars are loyal to different aspects of the Emperor. Custodes are loyal to the Emperor the man, Templars are loyal to the Emperor the God.
SD, which Templars? The Rouge Al Queda murdering type in this story? Or the other 98% who are faithful, passionate, fearless and have accepted the decision regarding the primaris? Like Helbrecht and Grimaldis?
That was never the case until GW decided to randomly make them a religious chapter who worship the emperor as a god. They never used to in the original lore. They had faith in him and his plans for humanity, and were zealous about their duty. This is why they rejected the codex and continued the crusade. It’s what’s makes the Black Templars. They’re the truest form of the old legions. Now suddenly they forget the Imperial Truth and worship him? Other chapters don’t, and they are nothing like the old legions.
Once upon a time, Black Templars and Sisters of Battle were listed as ‘desperate allies’ in the game. Now they’re supposed to be best friends?
A certain High Marshall: *WAAH*
Holy shit.. that happen! Yeah, that crusade needs to get intercepted ASAP!
Situation with that particular Crusade resolved almost by itself within the novel; overzealous Black Templars spent their lives in service of Emperor. If there would be more Crusades like that, Guilliman would probably ask Templars to resolve the issue internally, i.e. a few suicidal penance missions to Daemon Worlds would serve just fine. 😁
It's the equivalent of Metatron, God's voice sending a gift on God's behalf to the Pope and the Pope accepts it, but one of his Archbishops not only burns the gift he kills the Saint that was tasked to deliver it.
Cant wait to see Helbrechts response to the defiance
Nothing shocks me anymore since the Black Tamplars where working together with a Xenos Psyker. Taking in the creations of a Heretek. Next accepting Chaos Space Marines. Why not.
I’d love to see a video of a list of the most fanatical astartes chapters.
Black Templars... I kneel...
Finally some good author manifested his inner Nassir Amit to the delight of every primaris sceptic. We need more of these moments.
Throne, I hope I will live long enough to witness some thorough Guilliman/Cawl/Abaddon spanking.
Considering the last time this happened the Custodes wiped out a Chapter to a handful of marines, I think it's the Templars who are going to get such a hard buttkicking they'll be farting boot polish for years.
@@Lightscribe225 I hope for a lil' bit more clever writing about this topic. After all black templars are no small chapter (established to justify geedubs dubious marketing practices), but quite a popular army, for both primaris zoomers and firstborn boomers. Purging them would fly in the face of BL policy of not pissing off fanboys, which is strictly enforced to the detriment of lore.
@@felixjaeger1635 Purge them? No. Chapter Schism with one side getting Custodes support? More likely.
Carcharadons somewhere in the void: I smell...free supplies and serfs.
Personally I think Guiliman's best option is to let them go. They were already in a bad way and a number of them sided with the Primaris and the Custodes in battle, the Crusade lost most of it's already diminished power and this was only known after Guiliman investigated it. I think he'd be wisest to bury the truth of what happened and let these men continue to fight and most likely die furthering the interests of the Imperium. It would be impractical to risk exposing this rebellion and it's potentially corrosive ideology by pursuing them, let them die or fade into obscurity with the rest of the numerous forgotten crusades. Guiliman is an annoying figure in 40k because he's one of the few actually rational and logical people in it which just doesn't fit, the only flaw I can imagine being his undoing is that he is obsessive about his vision of order and the "right" way to do things. If his OCD gets the better of him and he has to right this situation he could endanger the entire Imperium, but I don't think he will.
I'd love a box of this. Custodes v templars or templars v templars!
Imo this will HAVE to be an internal Black Templars matter. The high marshal issued orders and those orders were not just disobeyed, but disobeyed in a criminal manner. Religious fanaticism is impervious to logic and reason, so any "outside" action will just make matters worse as other crusades get drawn in and start to pick sides.
Helbrecht will have to assemble a multi-crusade force to be able to nip this in the bud before it becomes a chapter civil war. And even if he forces the renegades to surrender, the trial will also be of his leadership. The accused will probably force a no-confidence vote of the high marshal. Talk about an impasse ! Fanatic arguing with fanatic.. all with bang, bangs close to hand.
would make for a good book if the high mashal had to race against the clock to find and handle this rogue element himself before the custodes finds them and renders judgement upon them all.
@@specter86fl Now that would be a tension filled read !
OH HELL NO. You murder a Custodes, good luck with trying to tell them it's "an internal matter." All that will do is get the whole chapter whacked.
@@specter86fl I agree. But no way the Custodes "defer" jurisdiction to ANYONE after one of their own is murdered? Do you think?
The story of certain bands of the templars rejecting the primaris makes perfect sense. They’re literally religious zealots who worship the emperor and even have created a rank amongst themselves for astartes who see visions of him (emperors champions). Some of the chaplains and Marshall’s amongst let’s say 6/7 thousand astartes have to feel the same way this chaplain did. Great story in my opinion. I think this will get more play either in another book in this series or a stand alone book. My hope is to see a grand conclave of Marshal’s and chaplains, forcing Grimaldus or Helbrecht to possibly fight renegade chaplains or marshals in an honor duel that leads all renegade elements of the chapter on a penitent crusade. The story of THAT crusade would be great lore. I’m assuming the templars have to handle this internally since we hear nothing of them being purged in the “plague war” series. That’s set ahead of the “dawn of fire” series.
The emperor chose sigismund as his champion, dawn released his son to do what he was made to do, hurt their enemy’s. We only have gillermans word that the emperor guided him, he was wounded by chaos and we know what that can lead to, Horus was corrupted after his wounding. The primarks have proven to falter to chaos, the templars have not.
Girlyman: I'll wipe out your crusades!
BT: you and what army?
Unsurprising that the best Chapter is the one that can kill a Custodes. BT’s are the fists of the Emperor, the best of the Imperium. The Emperor protects, The Emperor guides, The Crusade never ends
the custodes have to respond to that but i seriously wanna know how the templars killed him. typically templars will fight hand to hand and i dont see a custodes losing
Betrayal is a potent weapon.
As the Loyalists found out at Isstvan 5.
probably massively outnumbering him, even if he could take on 10 marines at once they are still more than 100 i assume
What Agus said. The custodian would wipe any marine who tried to fight him, but I doubt they fought fair
We've read about SM taking on custodes and winning. The BT are not Ultrasmurfs, nor wild puppies, they are brutal and would have faced worse than a custode in hand to hand from a Neophyte
@@yeoldchief7711 since when have a space marine ever taken in a Custodes and winning? (Besides outcast dead but that book was a clusterfuck)
It would be fun to follow the crusade along as they keep on fighting, and get whittled down to a handful of marines and go Gaunt's Ghosts or Last Chancers
i foresee a chapter hearing like the council of nicea or something.
The Dark Angels didn't quite go that far, we are a little more subtle.
would you say you haven't fallen?
like the black templars have
The Angels are cunning and brutal
The Templars are just brutal
This was a clumsy attempt to make good lore out of bad, and done by causing a schism in my own Chapter. I'm outraged. The Primaris lore was clumsy and pointless, yes, but this was poorly executed and years too late. The best outcome I can hope for is Helbrecht settling this in-house in an amazing story. This frustrates me because I like the Primaris models, and feel like the lore had great potential, but has been mishandled in a rush. GW is waffling between letting it slide by or addressing the conflict, and the result is half-assed.
That’s a really good and overlooked point but I think a lot of people are missing. This is just terrible writing and I really bad way to portray the black Templars. It makes them look like some kind of 40 K version of Al-Qaeda, crazed fanatics who think they can do whatever they want with no consequences. By this definition they could kill the emperor since he didn’t believe he should be worshiped as a God. Excellent point, I’m glad you brought it up.
Guy Haley has created a stupid ridiculous story. Killing their chapter master , and a custodian. ...how absurd
Unless this is alpha legion under cover...This is ridiculous disappointing story...Guy Haley indulging twisted fantasies and further spoiling the lore
Listening to new Templar lore makes me consider dropping 40k tbh.
It is not only the Templars lore, but most of the Lore that came after the fall of cadia.
Since then the lore just seems to get less appealing to me.
Stuff gets retconned, mysteries get replaced by subpar explanations, characters are changed to fit new directions and ideas....
There was a point in time were the black templars were described to be among the most loyal servants of the emperor. No templar ever turned or went renegade.
I understand that it can all be explained away by the circumstances but as a long time fan of the templars I just can't imagine that this is how it should/would turn out.
They used to never think of the emperor as s god, but a powerful human.
That shit got retconned and fucked their story up.
Alot of franchinses can handle the rocky times but holy moly, This is more rocky then a Grav Carrier getting pelted by missiles.
Guy Haley has created a stupid ridiculous story. Killing their chapter master , and a custodian. ...how absurd. I cannot finish expressing how ridiculous this is. Why in the world would those templars do that?
Unless this is alpha legion under cover...This is ridiculous disappointing story...Guy Haley indulging twisted fantasies and further spoiling the lore
GW lore is.becoming very bad
@@josephukpong2287 Helbrecht wasn’t killed, just a normal crusade Marshall.
I would like to see Guilliman go against the worshipers of the emperor.
Love the primarus models and scale but I wish they would have just upscaled the Marines we had instead of adding a new type of space marine. I don't like how boring the primarus are with the exception of blade guard. I am not buying any more and will look to see how he scale of the horus heresy Mkvi Marines look and may make armies from that line instead of primarus
Shadup
To be fair. First born tactical squads arent any more adorned than a basic intercessor squad.
@@con1302 they also aren't trying to ape master-cheif's armor.
I wouldn’t mind a retcon where it turned out that the Black Templars are in fact the II Legion, and were folded into the Imperial Fists before splitting back off again with the creation of chapters.
Thats very unlikely, BT doing this is not only in Character but very much expected, it was a shock Helbrect even said yes to Gulliman on Primaris even Gulliman himself, and now BT are going to start an internal civil war because of it. (On the Plus side we may get a new Chaos warband ala Badab from BT Stock from the Rebels this time my guess is a Khornate one, their Chapter master is already Primaris so a civil war and the envitable losers the Rebels would turn to Chaos because "at least they are all 1st Born")
They killed a Custodes? No amount of mental gymnastics can excuse them!
If I'm a Custode I would be outraged and I believe my fellow Custodes would be too. You don't kill a member of the ten thousand and sweep it under the rug. No, an example has to be made. I don't see Trajann Valores taking this lightly. If they don't handle this matter, then any Custodes could be called a traitor and executed.. No this is far too important for the Custodes not to get involved. No, the Custodes will be absolutely merciless and murderous when it comes down to it. I actually pity the Black Templars who are about to see the Custodes Wrath unleashed.
If I'm Helbrecht, I'm also outraged. A man that passionate would not take betrayal lightly at all. As a matter of fact I bet Helcrecht is a ball of white hot fury. He will probably demand that he and his loyal brethren be allowed to exact vengeance. So he can restore the honor of the Black Templars. Helbrecht is an unrelenting, fury filled crusader who won't stop until every black Templar, who committed this treachery, are brought to justice. But Helbrecht has to convince his fellow Templars of the gravity of the situation. Because the Custodes are coming with the Emperor's wrath and if they don't handle their traitorous brothers, the Custodes will. And maybe the Custodes start killing innocent Black Templars as retribution.
If I am Robute, I have to be very cautious. This is a very delicate situation. As Lord Commander, he has a duty to protect and uphold the laws of the Imperium. But he also cannot be seen as playing favorites. He has too many enemies inside the Imperium, and those enemies are looking for any reason to rebel and find willing allies. If it appears that he slaughtered a whole company of Black Templars, his enemies will use that to their advantage. Call him tyrant, and tell those willing to listen, that his conflict with Rogal is still alive and well. Trying to recruit other Imperial Fists successor chapters to their cause. He should allow Helbrecht and a group of Custodes to handle this matter. And make sure that Helbrecht and the Custodes don't come to blows because of differing opinions on how to handle the situation.
Impossible to predict? I would have said 100% predictable.
The Custodes will deal with ruthlessly and the Church be damned to protest.
I just found my old pewter BT EC, a pewter Terminator Captain like 20-30 tac marines, 5 3rd edition terminators and an old rhino, gonna paint them up and do a small BT army
Gman:....im sorry,WHAT happened!?
Helbrecht:yeah....
Gman:... does anyone else know?
H:no i dont think?
Gman:ok,you need to get these renegades under control,if other custodes get word? ...i dont think its gonna end well
H:no that's a understatement
« Throne of Light » is mentioned…
WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THE STAR CHILD ! Omfg :o
Otherwise ; well, the black templars as a whole are one big « oopsies » ^^
i love to see more of the BT in future. Thats such a crazy chapter
Black templar civil war would be insane. Can you imagine a crusade of black templars being declared Excommunicate Traitoris? Or even Excommunicate Hereticus? How would they react? Could it be a word bearers and Monarchia kind of situation? I don't think they could bring down the imperium but I think they would certainly try if they thought the entire Imperium had gone heretical and a rogue crusade could do some serious damage.
The Black Templars are more akin to the old Word Bearers than the Astartes of old and as such are actually closer to heresy and betrayal than even they themselves realize.
You need to read more Black Library, they are what they were meant to be.
@@yeoldchief7711 Faith is a fickle thing. I’ve read a lot of the Black Library books and it’s their fanaticism that makes them oh soooo vulnerable to the same downfall as The Word Bearers. In fact, The Word Bearers probably look upon them with a certain level of pity and reluctant kinship.
It always start trying to appease someone who never responses... and they get spanked and yelled at for something they purposefully did... and now find other voices who are happy they got the STRENGTH to kill themselves in all but name
..
*rewriting
I mean have the Strength to defend the Emperor!
When Lorgar worshiped the Emperor, the Emperor was just a man. When the Black Templars worshiped the Emperor, the Emperor had ascended to Godhood.
He is genuinely a deity now, at least by the in-universe description. He has a hugely powerful warp presence and can cause manifestations on the physical plane to aid those who call out to him. The miracles of the Sisters of Battle are real, the resurrection of Saints is real, and I'm fairly sure the way the Emperor's Champion is chosen for the Black Templars is based on visions sent directly from the Emperor as well.
@@HaggisOfDeath is he a God? Does that matter to someone of faith? No, not really. What matters is the act of faith and therein lies the pitfall that befell the early Word Bearers: faith is fickle and leaves the adherent subject to a path of more and more ardent and extreme acts in the name of their god. Therein lies the path to damnation…at the end of that path The Word Bearers await their new brothers, The Black Templars. Various factions of Templars may already be there. Only time shall tell.
9:18 alright so clearly these templars are on strong fanaticism if they are calling Gilliman an unbeliever.
The legions who could handle the renegade black templars besides the ultra marines. Are the space wolf's or If when there primarch returns the dark angels. And adeptus custodies along with the sisters of silence. I'm cool with the chapter master of the black templars is cool with the primaris reinforcements.
Ok but final they did this, like I’m surprised we haven’t seen more chapters doing this
most chapters understand that the custodes are above reproach, the ones that dont live in the eye of terror
Last I checked when a chapter did anything heretical in the eyes of a custodian they all to the last man got clapped
There's only one way to settle this. Primaris Emperor's Champion vs First Born Emperor's Champion. May the most blessed win.
May the Emperor be with you, always...
they think they are more loyal to the emperor than custodes how stupud can they be
The Emperor is with them, always.
@@yeoldchief7711 I don't think the skeleton will side with the cultists this time 😂
lion:im awake-WHAT IN THE FUCK DID I MISS!?
gman:uh...hey...
lion:...you have 2 seconds to explain this crap before i kick your ass.
gman:trust me its a long story
lion that got put in a coma by a beefed up chaos cultist ?
@@helicaldota
gman:*explains what the fuck has been going on minus his eldar girlfriend*
lion:...got it. so our dad is effectively dead,most of our brothers are dicks,missing or otherwise and all hell broke. ....we have a lot of shit to do dont we
gman:yeah
@@helicaldota yes
gman:wait where the fuck were you
lion:welll the watchers of the dark,the cute jawa buggers got me sleeping,later cypher or what not got my sword back, yay and i woke up extremely sleepy and here we are.
gman:....you got some of that dark age of technology left?
lion:iiii dont know actually, most of the dark age shit the old man gave me and my legion was put into the vault stored at my place here i think....if my sons havent broke into my house that is
As a loyal son of the XVth Legio I have to admit that Rho is the only Space Wolf I have any time or a modicum of respect for….
(Love the vids dude, thank you for these as they point me in the direction of the best 40K books to read!)
disobeying the Emperors son and rhe only man in 10k years to directly speak with the emperor?
that sir is Heresy.
Guilliman is not Dorn, and the Black Templars would always have been a tricky one for Guilliman. The Emperor is with the Black Templars, always.
In my head I figure it will go down like this: If and when Big Emps wakes up, Templars, Sisters and all other mega-faithful-emperor-is-a-god people will become ostracized. Templars, Sisters & others will of course not abide and believe that the Emperor is being held hostage and used by the Primarchs (there will be more than Guilliman at this point). Templars, Sisters and their gangs form a "separatist" faction that is fuelled by the belief that Emps is in trouble. Some other factions will join them. It's heresy 2.0.
That very similar to the starting “if the emperor had a text-to-speech” plot
I think this is a huge mistep in the writing. The BTs have had a spotless record of loyalty and dedication to the Imperium. To have them go against the Emperor's own bodyguards doesn't line up with their 10,000 years of history.
Rho doesn't really do the story justice here.
There was a vote and a internal fight over whether or not to accept the primaris. The pro primaris faction of BT were killed by the no BT faction.
The chaplain who counciled the crusade was very very fanatical and didn't recognize the primaris and saw the primaris as unworthy . The Castellan did come around when he was bested in combat.
This actually fits well and is exactly what the Black Templars would do. The Primaris are not the work of the Emperor, they are the work of Cawl. Supposedly on the orders of Guilliman. Cawl is a monstrosity and Guilliman wrote the codex and broke up the legions. Why would the Black Templars have anything to do with it?
Helbrecht and Grimaldus bending the knee instantly and “telling all crusades to accept Primaris” is just GW selling you their new models and giving you new lore to shoehorn them in.
Alright, stopped at 0:35, I'll be back in a few days, need to read the new book
Just as the Astartes replaced the thunder warriors, the Primaris are to replace the Astartes, who would do well to remember that they are not human but weapons to be spent as coin as the Emperor of Mankind sees fit.
It helps that unlike the Thunder Warriors, a space marine can be ungraded into a Pirmaris.
1/3 or even half of the Black Templars will turn to chaos somehow
I'm glad that at least some of the chapters (even if it's only a small part of one) are pushing back against the primaris and that GW was at least smart enough to at least somewhat reverse their decision of heretic metal man fixis the Emperor's mistakes and made it so that primaris Blood Angel's can still fall to the black rage although I still would have preferred the primaris to have just been a new armor and not new better space marines to try and get people to eventually re-buy their army although I only use first born because I'm not a fan of the primaris lore and I think first born look better.
couldnt the emperor himself appear to them and say "the primaris are cool, do not kill"?
They might consider a ploy of Chaos or warp nonsense to kill them traitors.
He can’t.. his saints can probably.
Even then I doubt they’d have a good reaction, sort of like the word bearers when he told them not to worship him
To the People saying “Black Templars can out match anyone.” You Obviously do not realize… a Single Custodian can kill a Primarch. A Handful of Custodians literally murdered an army of Orks.
By law the black templers are correct . Only the Raven guard were given permission to alter gene seed. Those of us who new . Wondered if any Marines would hold him to account.
They're basically Word Bearers in black armor at this point. The templars must now surrender to Helbrecht or die.
They are the Emperors, not Guillimans, to command. This would end up in a court or risk a civil war.
Guilliman is the Lord Commander of the Imperium and the Custodes are the Emperor’s Guard. Defy both, expect destruction.
@@kelman727 So, he still has no more authority than Horus. Guilliman is NOT Emperor.
What would they do if Dorn returned?
Face palming that he's son's decided to worship the Emperor.
That would get real sketchy, real fast, Rogal has made it clear he hates the idea of emperor worship but at the same time if he sought to end Gillman’s rule he would have an entire legion at his side if he gave the order to his sons.
@@PrimarisBlackTemplaDraven You need to read the Horus Heresy, Dorn knows exactly what the BT are and why they are necessary
Probably declare him a heretic and try to kill him as usual
For Black Templars that reject the Primaris in such a way: You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain..
In the grim darkness of the far future, Azrael eye twitched as he sensed treason.
As bad as ot sounds, nothing will come of it. Lucian won't tell anyone but Guilliman what the now-dead Crusade force did. It will be hidden and forgotten.
that's awfully bold of you to assume that the custodians don't already know about this battle. the custodians have eyes and ears everywhere and this would definitely be worth hearing about.
@@memesterjohnson4096 only two "humans" survived to know the story. Lucian and the young aspirant. They will not talk. The Primaris fleet was burned in the void with all hands. No Astropathic message was sent (Guilliman would have "heard" that)
So it is fair to assume the Custodian Guard doesn't know. And even if they did, are they going to go to war with such a prominent and respected Chapter? They aren't stupid. They could beat the Black Templars, but it would cost them and the Templars would call for aid from the Dorn-bloodline and the wider Astartes. This could get super ugly!
Better to forget it. The guilty are dead anyway.
this particular crusade i feel would have a different tune after the destruction of said fleet if met with the response of a returned Wolf-king. perhaps they would then question their actions.
I would not had force the primaris upon them but had given them a choice to accept so that they can slowly show why they are good and not herasy. I also might just have them make crusades of just primaris marines to prove themselves to them.
This was such a shitty thing for them to do. I'm mostly a Chaos player, and this touches the nerve I have for Imperial hypocrisy. The fanatic sees not that his honor has run completely dry.
I think Guy Haley doesn't like the Black Templars
I think the Lion might well be the one to sort this mess out. Killing the custode was a massive mistake.
The Black Templars are on thin ice. To kill a Custodes and his torchbearer is reason enough to take action. Between that and disobeying the Emperor's own son, a Primarch, is near unforgivable.