I've said it before and I'll say it again. A lot of people focus on either the Wolf or Space portion of the Vylka Fenrika, and forget the Viking portion. "A gift always goes seeking a gift" is a classic Viking saying.
tbh during Third edition, the wolf part was WAY more important that it became after 5th edition. I prefer Wolverine to Thor, so that were bad news for me :P
Can't really blame people for focusing on the "Wolf". The lore of the Vylka Fenrika didn't get alot of creativity for a long time, and because of that EVERY SINGLE DAMN THING BECAME A WOLF. The image of Ragnar taking a morning Wolf shit, while reading a book about wolves, on his Wolf crapper, after eating Wolf toast, smoking a Wolf cigarette, and drinking his Wolf coffee, Wolf, Wolf, wOlF, WoLf, Wolf, Wolf, Worf, Wolf, Wolf, Wolf spelled backwards is Flow, Wolf, f%ckiddy, Wolf, Wolf, Wolf, Wolf, Lowf, Olwf, is never leaving my mind after reading their books.
The Wolftime novel really gives us alot of insight we didnt have before. Great context. I do agree that a interaction between Bjorn and Guilliman is needed. That would be an awesome read for sure.
I wonder if Guilliman bowing before Grimnar was also some way of him apologizing to Russ for the codex? we know thanks to the dark imperium series that Gulliman regrets the braking down of the legions, So him showing deference to Grimnar is as close as he believes he can come to apologizing to his brother. That's my two sense on it anyway.
They've possibly retconned the lore around the breaking of the legions then. Russ actually agreed with the chapters and saw the reasoning behind Guilliman's decision. The only point Russ disagreed with was how small the chapters were. He was also a bit upset Jonson wasn't there because he thought he should have had a say. But of course they didn't know Jonson was entombed in the rock at that stage.
@@BM-wf9uf Russ was vehemently against disbanding the legions even though he knew why it had to be done. People do forget RG put his money where was his mouth was by splitting his force the most.
I have been saying it since wolftime was shown initially, the only thing I wanted was a guillimane and Bjorn conversation. I think that would be so interesting
Guilliman: "here you new marines with the-" Space wolf: "yeah sure whatever time for you to leave" Guilliman: "...I see..goo-" Bjorn:"WAAAAIIIITT!!!" *dreadnought screams echoing, with each step the earth shacks* Guilliman: "who are you noble warrio-" Bjorn: "DONT GIVE ME THAT!!!" *wolves kneeling in* Bjorn:"YOU KNOW WHO I AM, I WAS THERE!!" *the wolves shacking, waiting to hear of this great dishonor* Bjorn: "WHEN YOU SLIPPED ON XENO BLOOD AND FELL DOWN LONGEST HILL EVER SEEN!!!" *dreadnought chuckles* Guilliman: ".....BJORN!!!" Bjorn:"hahaha good to see you alive and well jarl of ultramare." *dreadnought slaps guilliman on the back* Bjorn: "come, have a drink, we must talk of better times my friend" *the two walk to nearest pub has wolves are in shock and horror*
@@Fourtytwo4242 wouldn't that be the greatest, Bjorn reveals some old embarrassment that guillimane doesn't want put there. That's why guillimane didn't want to have word with Bjorn.
I think the most accurate representation of the Space Wolves was said by the Kharn. "The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does..."
@@christophercombs7561 I think his books and short stories have fleshed him out. He's lost everything. Everything. There is only one path for him now, the Red Path. He'll shoulder that burden like he shouldered Angron's, his legion's and his Nails.
Because the authors wanted to create drama for sake of drama….. Guilliman- “Do you want free weapons, technology and reinforcements for nothing , seriously no strings attached.Just kick some ass.” Grimnar “Fack off”
Because the lore needs to show that there are drawbacks as well as perks to the Wolves’ way of thinking - their inability to see the bigger picture or much of anything beyond their own pride. And because the plot needed thickening.
When Guilliman took the knew it is in the same nature how Guilliman earned the respect of the barbarian tribes of Macrag when his father king Konor sent his son Guilliman to pacify the barbarian tribes.
False. Testing someones true intent with Alpha confrontation then mediation is the true alpha way. Not being a toy soildier. Having ones own initiative fully in play AND being the alpha legion warriors puts The Space Wolves at the top of the legion. .even if none of the honors and titles cross their armour. .A true alpha needs no praise.
Yeah you also know what true AlPhaS do? Their job. And not bitch and moan to their superior, in every sense of the word, cause they know they are not as capable and humble enough to know their limits. What you described fits little children and dogs
The Wolves may be the Emperor's execution force but an executioner doesn't have the freedom to just kill any threat to the kingdom. He has to be pointed toward a target and can't just take the initiative into his on hands.
when Malcador posed that same concern to Big E, the Emps response was that Russ would never betray the imperium, one of the few he could say that about.
The wolves maybe the Emperor's executioners but the Custodes are the Emperor's Marines. Gulliman turns up with Custodes and the Emperor's flaming sword. Can the Wolves take on and defeat the Emperor's custodes??? I think not.
Yeah this was a pretty hot take by Rho. I feel like anything involving the Wolves he loses perspective and impartiality. Guilliman bowing to Grimnar is just fellating Space Wolf fans and undermines Guilliman's authority.
All of this conjecture but really what can anyone do about it? Guilliman has 10's of thousands if not 100's of thousands of completely loyal primaris, the backing of the Adeptus Custodes and the patronage of the Emperor. He doesn't need a thousand or so out of date space wolves to give him their blessing. This is purely a symbolism thing and unnecessary pandering to Grimnar. Repsect to Guilliman for playing their little games though so they can feel good about themselves.
Personally I’m not sure it was a great move, it’s probably leaving the possibility of Grimnar doing something stupid down the track. Guilliman making like his father and punching Grimnar out just like the Big E did to Russ seems more fitting.
@@psychedashell not in context of the last 10000 years of imperial behavior if robute ever had true respect for Russ him paying respects to logan is the least he could do and frankly if robute did something to the wolves and Russ did come back it would not be good for either the imperium nor the ultramarines
If the emperor gave guilliman the title lord commander and authority over the imperium, and the wolves only follow the emperors orders, than why are they not following guilliman. He has director authority from the emperor himself
@@robertkropp3490 Yet Guiliman spoke to the Big E and has his sword. He IS acting in the Emperors name, why would the -furries- Space Wolves doubt that?
Guilliman saw the existence of the Ecclesiarchy and didn't set about dismantling it, one can easily see that whatever issues he ever had with the Space Wolves, he'd never try and at all harm them.
I don't think it will get to hairy between them. It will be more if a , hey Russ imma gonna give you a whole lot of dakka and let go of your leash. Go forth and do what you do best, but when it comes to the different loyalist planets please refer to how we are trying to run things now when dealing with them.
did you say that 3 marines would be overkill to conquest a human world and that 1 would be enough? i heard that somewhere and i cant stop thinking about the logistics of that... mainly, that it would be impossible for 3 marines to go through the entire planet in a reasonable time
Cato Sicarius was sorta put in that situation , feudal world with Orks, given time he prolly would have became king , had he never reunited with imperium
@@DanielScutt i wasnt talking about killing. for example, 10 marines, could kill anything our earth could throw at them... but while they are fighting on asia, the rest of the world is doing their thing. to the time they get to western europe, asia might already be doing its thing again. they could be killing non stop day and night but there are just too much people and space between people.
The Astartes were designed as a spear tip force, the way the Warmaster used the Luna Wolves. So the Spear tip tears out the throat of the world effectively killing it, the world may thrash and lash out but it does not know it is already dead. The IG then mops up
I think it was in the Iron Snakes novel by Dan Abnett. One marine to take a city, one squad to take a planet, one chapter to take an empire. Or something like that.
@@emanymton7184 mad really then you read about 100s of them dying if not 1000s on baal etc just makes you think actually how big the tyranids threat really is
They've completely retconned the relationship between Russ and the Codex then, as it used to be that Russ loved the idea of chapters, (hence the failed Wolf Brothers chapter) and wanted to create a ring of Space Wolf successors around the EoT, to guard against the traitor legions return. He just didn't agree with the limit on their numbers
Isn't it that the wolves only dislike being weakened? I don't think they would react so poorly to another Wolf chapter, but rather react poorly to having their men taken for it.
Come on, man. There should be a reasonable limit to any bullshit. It's not "the loss of his father and so many of his brothers...". It's the brother he killed and those in whose defection he actively participated. And his father wouldn't have had to sit on the golden throne had he done his job and brought Magnus back to Terra. Even more, if he hadn't plotted against Magnus leading to the Nicaea council. I love the wolves of Fenris. They are a great legion with some awesome lore. Somehow though, Russ was written as a character that has stepped on every rake and made every mistake. So no, no excuses for Russ. On the other hand, it opened the stage for Logan, who in my opinion has outgrown his gene father and became what Russ should have.
You are making me want to read up on the lore more after the battle for Fenris when the Wulfen returned. I was at best okay with the lore during 5th edition till then. But the lore from that battle an onward I haven't read much of.
Honestly if Russ learned one of his sons disrespected Guilliman, he would straight up kill Logan. Russ is on record that a Primarch can disagree with another Primarch, but that Marines shut up and do what they're told. Even with the implementation of the Codex, Russ would never tolerate even a Chapter Lord disrespecting the Avenging Son.
The avenging son are able to slay grimnar out of existence but you need to know that first founding chapter is very influential in imperium politics and if he do harm the wolves it would generate bad image toward him and his Ultramarine. Lots of bad things can be happens
@@danendraarkananta9442 I think you're way over estimating the High Lords love for Grimnar and the Wolves. The average people might love him, but the ruling class would happily get rid of them. They've tried it before, multiple times. Hell the Ecclesiarchy has an active standing execution force whose sole purpose is to isolate and execute Space wolf officers in secret.
@@danendraarkananta9442 of course robute could easily kill Logan but the ramifications of doing so would be very very bad considering what the wolves have done for the civilians of the imperium especially on Armageddon
How did Grimnar react when Gulliman bowed at him? I can't imagine it would be comfortable for an Astartes to have a literal demigod, son of the Emperor, basically a prince of the imperium do that...
I would like to point out that girlyman new that grimnar fought and bannished magnus and that the emperium spent so much time attack the wolves girlyman bowed because he is the ultimate statesman and he knew it was not only the only way but it was owed to the wolves
Of all the qualities the primachs have, humility is not among them. Guilliman only knelt because he calculated that it would benefit him more than it would hurt. He needed the Wolves to bolster the morale of the Imperium and for the Wolves to survive they needed Primaris marines. The true relation between Terra and Fenris is shown in a throwaway line where someone demands to a Custodian that they are not "Space wolves" but "Wolves of Fenris". The Custodian simply remarks "The Wolves do not belong to Fenris. They belong to the Emperor." Every Astartes immediately backs down after that. I have no doubt that Guilliman could pull off something like easily, but he wants Grimnar on his side and having to kill him would be counterproductive.
@@wanderhillen2435 Mate. Guilliman isn't some kind of manipulative psychopath. I don't know why people seem so keen to tear him down. Calculating ones best odds of success is totally normal human behaviour.
@@wanderhillen2435 Considering the context, Guilliman has 0 obligation to bow, to negotiate, to recognise the 'sovereignty of the wolves'. But he did so anyways, because he understands and values the nature of the wolves. If he wanted to be a dick. He could have dispatched his fleet in system ignoring what the wolves wanted. With custodes at the front. It actually really sounds like the Wolves are traitors. Considering Leman Ruses piss poor performance during the Heresy, this really downgrades the wolves in my books.
Russ gave himself to the Emperor after the Emperor punched him out. Pappa Smurf bowing to Grimnar rather than slapping him into submission leaves the possibility of Grimnar doing something stupid down the line.
@@jamesespinosa690 I don't know where you see me describing Guilliman as a psychopath? He's calculating, efficient and politically gifted, that's his unique primarch thing. When he wants to get the Wolves on his side, that takes a different approach to (say) convincing the Imperial Fists. Big G knows that and alters his behavior accordingly. That in itself is not psychopathy, certainly not on the scale of the other primarchs. The Emperor himself has done way more hectic shit than Guilliman ever will. That said, I do think the primarchs have real psychological problems. Their (somewhat justified) tendency to see themselves as being above every other being in the imperium except their brothers and the Emperor easily leads them to see others as tools. The fact that the Salamanders are considered exceptional when they actually care about humans says enough about how common that behavior apparently is.
Imagine the lion or the khan had returned instead, such disrespect wouldn't have been taken lightly, the wolves are lucky that the primarch is more tolerating.
The Lion could have done it during the genocides, but decided not to, he knows the loyalty of the wolves, hotheaded as they may be; the Khan wouldnt ever, he is actually a swell guy, quiet as he is.
Yeah, they'd know the hit to Imperial morale would be too great, 1, and 2, there is no force capable of replacing the Space Wolves in the Imperium, it would be a fool's decision to eradicate such valuable and loyal sons. And neither the Lion nor the Khan are fools. Well, the Lion might do it on a bad day. Not that I'm saying the Wolves are the best or most numerous, just that nobody's gonna fill their shoes if they get merk'd.
Grimnar can't spend his strength on the orks because he knows they will just learn from his forces and only get stronger. He is smart enough to know that the Imperial Guard is the only force that has a hope of stopping the orks due to the scale of the threat. He knows that the wolves are best held back ready to continue the fight against traitor legion forces and in case Guilliman needs to be sanctioned. That was always the Wolves role, after all.
This actually brings up an interesting thought for why Guilliman won't allow Traitor geneseed to be used: those Legions 100% could not be controlled. Guilliman isn't afraid they'll betray the Emperor, he's afraid they'll interfere with his plans.
I don't really agree. Visualise a scenario where the Iron Hands are required to work alongside a primaris chapter descended from Fulgrim? How do you think that would go down? It's pretty basic and logical if you think about it.
Before the Heresy I recall squads of Wolves were despatched to the retinue of each of the Primarchs. I know we saw some of the stories of these with some of the traitor Primarchs but I don't recall seeing any with the ones sent to Guilliman or for that matter the Lion, Sanguinius, the Khan, etc. Might be an interesting story or two there.
He had them In multiple books. The I remembered empire they guarded him and his mother. The squad of them Even fought off Conrad curze. And they where there when big G walked down to meet the lion on Macragge and the top wolf challenged the lion to a duel.
@@davidring681 I still think it's an underserved story arc. The Wolves are interesting characters and seeing them face down the different cultures of the various Legions courts as essentially intrusive watchkeepers would be intriguing. How for example are the Wolves treated by the Alpha Legion preHeresy?
I don't know in the 10000 years has Macragge/Guilliman tried to mess with the other chapters? Not to my knowledge. They have not harassed the 1st with their issues and secrets or the vast unforgiven parading a pseudo chapters. Seems unfounded sense of paranoia.
Well guilliman was in stasis and taking him out would have killed him, so I don’t think he was in the position to do anything. Afterwards the ultramarines are just another chapter so wouldn’t have had the power to interfere with other chapters if they wanted to
@@finlayames6216 You say _just_ another chapter, but they outnumber all other loyalist chapters. They have more than enough power to... _interfere_ with the business of their cousins. If you're not pulling up on Macragge with hax like a full Thousand Suns force (who can punch well above their weight with psychic powers) or their weird and wonderful mega weapons of the Dark Angels (who don't exactly follow the codex anyway), their numbers alone make it impossible for _any_ other chapter to touch the UltraMarines.
@@henryviiifake8244 except they don’t outnumber other chapters since they have 1000 marines like all other codex compliant chapters…. Which is like 99% of them. They have a fair amount of political power as they are an original legion, but little more then any other of the old legions. And their marines are natively any better then any other chapter, you sound like Matt ward. And above all, they don’t fight other loyalists since they are all on the same side. There’s very few outbreaks of conflicts between loyal marines since the heresy and those that do normally lead to one side being called renegade and kicked out.
So I'm standing in Barnes & Noble today and I'm looking at the immense number of books there are from the Black Library and as it's been awhile since I've read any of them, ( as life has been crazy) I wanted to pick up with a new series. I had no idea what to do and then I said "Hey let me just check out what Wolf Lord Rho is saying/talking about today". LOL needless to say , I came home with a copy of "The Wolf Time" and I am extremely happy that I did! So THANK YOU BROTHER ! AS ALWAYS YOU CAME THROUGH AGAIN! I base my reading decisions (WRHMMR40K), upon your learned knowledge of the subject AND because you enjoy the same kind/feel of a books writing that I know will keeo me invested and turning pages. Because let's be honest, even when reading a 40K book , if the author('s) DON'T QUITE DO IT THE JUSTICE IT DESERVES....IT WILL END UP IN THE BOOK EXCHANGE BOX AT THE CO OP BY MY HOUSE!! (SIDENOTE: There is a little kid who KNOWS I do my grocery shopping on Thursdays...and also drop off my books and see if there are any gem's left by another. AND THIS KID WAITS FOR MY FANTASY, D&D, AND 40K BOOKS! LOL, Mind you, they are NOT THE ONES THAT I ABSOLUTELY LOVE, just ones that I have read once, were maybe a good read, but once finished, would just become spaces on my shelf that need filling by A BETTER BOOK. SO, he gets a new 40K book, The Lore gets a NEW FAN, His Mom smiles at me, And I GET TO FILL AN EMPTY SPACE ON MY SHELF WITH A NEW NOVEL! WINS ALL AROUND!) So THANK YOU RHO FOR A GREAT CHANNEL WITH GREAT CONTENT! THIS SON OF CORAX PRAISES YOU!
Don’t you think it’s weird that the Emperors genetically crafted executioners made to destroy any other Astartes who crossed him had “issues” with the other legions?
@@danendraarkananta9442 The Minotaur don't care who they go against, they'll take on anyone the High Lords tell them to. The Minotaur are the High Lords' Lapdogs.
I think RG's key characteristic is honour and leadership, does he just bow or does he fully take a knee? Because a bow is a sign of respect, a knee is that of submission. RG respects the wolves as the emperor's executioners and I think he trusts that should corruption exist in the loyalists, the wolves would deal with it, as they always have.
How many of the loyalist legions are actually compliant with the codex? As shown here the Wolves are not, the Imperial Fists created the last wall protocol to reform as a legion, the Dark Angels successors have Grand Masters but only the Dark Angels themselves have a Supreme Grand Master.
So far as we know, the main "Non codex compliant" chapters are Space Wolves, Blood Angels, White Scars and Black Templars, but there are probably a great many more deeper in the lore that my dumb brain hasn't found yet xD
@@AnikaJarlsdottr blood angels follow like 99% of the codex. Their only notable change is death company (which by their nature are temporary) and sanguinary guard (which are comparable to elite honour guards from other chapters)
@@christophercombs7561 Then they would get decimated. It is tiring having them do stuff like that through out the lore. Russ really screwed the defense of terra simply because he had no self discipline
@@papagyekelartey1969 if the custodes showed or actual divine inspiration from the Big E considering how talkative it would placate the wolves and their completely justified suspicion of imperial agents
"no one has ever, or will ever question our loyalty" Bjorn the Fell Handed also, fairly certain Big E told Malcador that Russ was one of the only primarchs he knew would never betray the imperium, that has to have rubbed off on his sons.
I may be in minority here since the Rho is a Space Wolves fan but I totally disagree with all this. "Guilliman wants to control Space Wolves"... Horus Heresy just happened that resulted in the deaths of Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius as well as a placement of The Emperor on the Golden Throne. So Guilliman comes out with Codex Astartes that will split the remaining Legions into Chapters so nothing similar would ever occur. This whole controling the Space Wolves makes zero logic cause Guilliman's Ultramarines were the biggest legion by such a margin that they could easily 1v1 any other loyalist or traitor legion. With loyalist it could even be said 1v2 no problems. But whatever - splitting Space Wolves into 2 chapters was controlling... Then he comes back from death 10k years later and tries to piece the Imperium together in the worst times possible and then another Space Wolf is like - Nope, you ain't be controllin us dud. I mean give me a break... I bet Guilliman in that moment thought why he even bothers at that point...
@@christophercombs7561 no they would have been torn apart by the ultramarines, the ultramarines founded 23 chapters in the second founding meaning they probably had about 24,000 astartes. The space wolves only founded the wolf brothers chapter during the second founding. Giving a more liberal estimate on the space wolves legions number at the time of the second founding they were probably at about at 3,000 to 4,000 astartes. They would be outnumbered 6 to 1 and in that situation the ultramarines carry the day.
@@colinbielat8558 Guys guys guys xD Stop with this civil war heresy here ;d We all are loyal sons of the Emperor. I actually think that initital numbers of the Ultramarines before the splitting of legions were bigger than that. It is estimated that they had numbers higher than 100k before the Horus Heresy and they didn't lose that much till the end. Maybe the scouring series will change that but anyway. We all know that Leman Russ would easily defeat Guilliman but Ultramarines were not only hugely outnumbering the Space Wolves but also better tactically. Especially Papa G so it would probably go like Russ vs Angron. Russ would be able to defeat Guilliman but would be rekt by endless hordes of Ultramarines. Anyway that was not my initial point. The point was that there was no reason for controlling the Space Wolves when Ultrasmurfs were so big in numbers. Also Guilliman was not afraid of Russ going heretical. Remember that he counted Russ in his Dauntless Few. It was all in all a precaution for when the primarchs would be no more. Just look at this stupid Badab War. What if Lufgt Huron would be a Legion Master and be able to persuade or lie to at least one or two other Legion Masters? We would have another Horus Heresy... At the end of it we would have a decrease in loyalist legions by almost 40%... And another point is that this whole holding grudge 10k years later is just dumb and hurts the Imperium in the long run. I disliked Space Wolves in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. Highly hypocritical and reckless... But I actually like them in 40k since they always defended the innocent and didn't take any shit from the Inquisition and actually fought them. So I really liked those ideas but this whole grudge thing is illogical and stupid.
@@christophercombs7561 russ can't beat 24,000 astartes opening fire on him, guillimans main strength is that he knows how to get the most out of his troops, he would bait russ into a trap and then annihilate him and the space wolves that remain. Russ and 4,000 space wolves would be completely annihilated. No primarch can survive a conflict in which they are out numbered 6 to 1 against another force of astartes command by another primarch, especially against the one primarch who is probably the most tactically gifted of all the primarchs.
Ngl, pre sure most of the Space Wolves defiance stems from not being able to properly understand what half the words in the codex astartes actually mean.
No offensive to the Great Wolf, but there is pride and there is stupidity, the whole purpose of the division of the Legion was so that no singular individual to hold that much power that plunged the whole Galaxy into the Horus Heresy. Grimnar is a great hero to the Imperium, but he is allowing the pride of the Space Wolves to get the way in the protection of the Imperium and its people, and it’s shows once they’ve accepted the Primaris into their ranks that their really was no foul play involved. The Lord Commander may be many things, but he valued his brothers and their legions, and in truth I worry for the future of the Space Wolves and their successors if this paranoia continues to grow from the Great Wolf, perhaps his Axe is growing in power now that rift is open and subtlety being influenced by it.
Guilliman accomplished what even Horus couldn't. Guilliman broke the Legions. Logan Grimnar has every right to be concerned that Guilliman would do it again. The Imperium seeks to strangle the Wolves, now Guilliman is back and might seek to finish the job. Neuter the Wolves whilst controlling a legion of his own.
@@smithingbear7522 Funny enough Guilliman has had the same thought of whether his decision to split the legions was correct. I'm inclined to believe it was a knee jerk reaction in response to the heresy.
@@smithingbear7522 He may have broke the legions but after his resurrection realised it was a mistake. Besides you've got to understand each ones motivation for doing so.
Reading through ”old” Lore, codexes etc, sw were probably 2x bigger than codex compliant chapters at a minimum, some could say they numbered many times more. I like to think that they were many times bigger, manning one of the biggest bastions in the galaxy + other installations in an around the fenris system.
In the Fall of Cadia stuff, right after Warzone Fenris, when you look at the number of "Great Companies" it listed as deployed to various planets around Cadia, it totals 17...meaning 5 Great Companies more than we knew of...and that was after at least 2 were practically wiped out during Warzone Fenris. So, the Wolves have a lot more than thd Codex 1000. They MIGHT get around this by saying that Blood Claws only count as Initiates, not full Battle Brothers(which is using a loop-hole, as Initiates/Scouts don't seem to count for the 1000 Battle Brothers total).
@@alexbrown1930 yeah, depending though on the codexes and other lore, some companies could also number more than 200+ marines. This could be like you say, Blood Claws, or units from other companies who are sent to reinforce the active companies. I like to think though that the Space Wolves are/were far bigger than any other chapter in existence by a large margin. Reasons are many, but also hinted at during the ca 30 years we have had SW codexes. When it comes to more current lore, i am on the fence. I really like the new books, but they are also a "pr" instrument for GW to sell their new range of models. And the SW lore(like other chapters) have over the years been retconned, inpart to sell models.
Said it before and I still believe Guilliman has a hidden agenda. His gestures to reconcile with the Space Wolves ticked nearly every box with regards to protocols etc. However, I do believe he recognizes Fenris and the Wolves are positioned not only to repel the greenskins but being on the cusp of the Eye of Terror, have an important strategic role as well as the tactical roles in their defense of the Imperium. That in and of itself justifies his reinforcement and infusion/replenishment of bodies to the Space Wolves. However, it still doesn't sit well that the whole Primaris endeavor was draped in such secrecy. it lends the air of deception and subterfuge (like that portrayed in the Star Wars franchise) and the possibility/potential for a hidden code or similar being activated at some future point in time when Guilliman's apparent motive to "control" the Astartes comes to fruition in a manner that forces the agenda, unexpectedly, upon those whom have defied him for so long. His gestures of reconciliation may have just been theater to appease the long standing misgivings by the Fenrisians. As I have stated before, the Primaris Wolves may have a cultural link to Fenris but do NOT have a true connection with the homeworld of their Primarh. They were not chosen by a Wolf Preist and did not go through "the Trials". Though it is in their blood, they are still not true Space Wolves IMHO. I would love to get Bjorn's read on the situation one day as well as him having a face-to-face with Guilliman. Time will tell
A lot of the Primaris marines from the Wolves successor chapters have taken a pilgrimage to Fenris to undertake the Trials of Morkai, its in the 9th ed codex. I dont believe they did it all at the same time, but they have turned up sporadically to undergo the trials and prove themselves true space wolves. I agree with the rest of your post though.
@@AnikaJarlsdottr that's like getting your wings before going through flight school. They still have no true cultural connections to life on Fenris. Nice try but not buying it
What about those who have Crossed the Rubicon Primaris like Ragnar Blackmane? What about those who have been made Primaris as part of their implantation process instead of First Born? The Hounds of Morkai selected from Wolf Scout packs to cross the Rubicon and become the specialist, anti-Psyker Reivers?
okay so, i keep hearing how the astartes were "the emperor's work" BUUUUUT in the GW book, i think it was the Valdor one it is stated that the emperor actually delegated off many of his projects to ppl he thought were capable and in fact one of these ppl was a scientist named Astartes...hence why they are called Astartes. So the whole blaspheming the emperors work thing i dont think holds water.
Astarte also tried to destroy them because she believed they would turn traitor without their primarchs. The emperor was involved in all these projects at a high level but didn’t do the day to day excepting the custodians/primarch projects
@@carlstanford7607 thats kinda what i figured. He was kinda like a manager or something he would final say and or input but it was not 100% his doing except for of course the Custodes.
Grimnar doesn't initially turn Guilliman down because of a grudge, it contributes to it but that is not the actual reason he turns it down. He turns it down because he believes that everything that has come to pass and the current state of the Wolves suggests that the prophesied Wolftime (like... the name of the novel) is upon them and that is when Russ will return to them and they will fight a defiant last battle with their Primarch at their side... not some petty bullshit. Grimnar believes that if he accepts the reinforcement he will ruin the prophesy and they won't get their Primarch back. That's a really important aspect of that story and to omit it for the sake of a headline is irresponsible and has a negative impact on how others view the Wolves.
Since I saw a couple posts about this in this thread, felt like saying this: while Primaris are physically superior to Firstborn, it's not like the difference between a guardsman and a FB. Haven't some FB in the lore (I think Seth) beaten Primaris? And SMs have regularly beaten stronger opponents in personal combat in the lore. Swarmlords, Demon Princes, Ork bosses. Sparring, sure, Primaris will win most. Fight to the death? Fighting against the best/most experienced FB, (Dante, Grimnar, Azrael, company/chapter champs)? I dig basketball, so try this: Primaris=NBA, Firstborn=D1 college/overseas star, Guardsman=under-12 end of bench (Catachans can be high school players in this comp)
An FB beat the crap out of a primaris in the wolftime, he later showed the same primaris's pack superior squad tactics. The problem with SW primaris is that all their knowledge comes from cawl, it's 1s and 0s which isn't how the wolves fight. There is a great arc of that conflict within the primaris who's instinct tell him one thing but his integrated training tell him another.
The underlying problem posed by Warhammer is that the warp exists. The warp gives rise to psykers. Human beings through their negative emotions created the Choas gods who live off these negative emotions and indeed thrive when they are worshipped. The emperor thus needed to find a way to ensure humanity never found out about the Chaos gods and remove their devotion to worshipping....anything, be that the old faiths of old earth -Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. This was done by decree and they could only believe in the illumination of the emperor's decree. A rather empty bargin that helps zero human begin to answer the great questions in life. The above would in the emperors wisdom or lack thereof make the Chaos gods weaker and then die off. The one missing gap in this plan is that humans have to also stop having negative emotions. Emotions -negative or positive- are part of the makeup of humanity and one can not stop having them. One can only be mindful of them and became aware of the externalities and internal stimuli that cause negative emotional responses. So in my view the emperor was doomed to frailer, has failed, and will continue to fail. So a rather stupid solution underlying all of Warehammer 30 and 40k. On the flip side there is no end for GW since the Emperor will be eternally fighting and thus the need for stories and thus profits. Well, until readers know the never ending nature of their addiction.
Pretty sure the Chaos Gods existed well before Humanity, Humanity just exists in greater numbers than the Old Ones, the Necrons, the Orcs and the Eldar and provide way more food. I believe the Tyrannids entering the 40k universe can be blamed on Humanity but the Chaos gods are well before our time.
I wonder if the conflict with the Imperial Hierarchy comes from the fact that Russ swore a personal oath of loyalty to the Emperor, and thus the Wolves are under no obligation to anyone else save their own conscience. An interesting political situation.
Well none of the others legions had the numbers to continue as ine exept ultramarines they were the ones that actualy lose theit numbers byvspliting and protecting more territories than ultramar and still half of his brothers are that stupid to fight that fact even when they couldnt even protect a mere solar sistem
Russ' sons have been ranging all across the imperium, answering any and all calls for aid for 1000s of years, they did so with a fraction of the ultra marines forces (the main chapter and its successors), they broke up Gaz's waagh and let it dissolve into infighting, they b^tchslapped angron back to the warp and then won a conflict against the INQUISITION, as well as fighting back Magnus and the thousand sons on more than one occassion, all while defending the Fenris system and as many other systems as they can manage at the same time. bought time they had some reinforcements tbh.
@@AnikaJarlsdottr they did not bitchslapp angron back to the warp that was the Gray Knights. And thebwar with the inqusition was not won by the wolfs, it was "won" at an confferenc tabel.
Nah bro I've been a space wolves collector since second edition. i expected nothing else, but for grimnar to refuse, from day 1 the rout has never taken orders and has always had issues with authority, it's why russ set the bar for chapter fortresses by asking big E for full legion self sufficiency, it's Russ's legion nobody tells Russ what he does with it, the most surprising thing was that any of the wolves were shocked Grimnar refused, there's only one person who can tell Russ and the wolves what to do and that's the Emperor
the Cup of Wulfen? most of the primaris Wolves from successors have travelled to fenris and taken the test of Morkai, which as far as I am aware includes drinking from the Cup. the primaris wolves from the SW chapter itself will have drank as part of their recruitment and training process. the primaris wolves who were defrosted and sent to fenris I am sure will have taken the cup before being accepted as a true son (unless it was already infused into them as part of the initial process all those years ago). hopefully my rambling helps, sorry :'P
I defo found the wolves to be a group of moaning, cry babies. They had got it into their heads that Russ was back and when it turned out not to be him, they throw their toys out the pram hahaha Even Russ had more respect for RG than the wolves did. I really don't see Russ letting them talk to RG that way if he found out. The wolves didn't even really follow the codex, so it's a poor excuse for their attitude. RG didn't ask them for anything apart from to do what they are already doing and he will give them the means to get the task done. I do think this book shows them in a bad light
I find the whole kneeling scene disgusting. Guilliman represents the imperium. When he bows the whole race of men bows. The wolves are a tool to be used by the Imperium as the Imperium sees fit. The whole thing stinks of pride and how the wolves think themselves apart from everyone. If Russ didn't want this to happen, then maybe he shouldn't have ran off to the eye and stayed and led the Imperium.
Well also guilliman has to respect anyone that actually hasn't been in a coma for 10,000 years, and been doing their part that whole time keeping the empire together. When it comes to experience I mean..
Ah, that helps fill in some questions I had... But one more for the heck of it: GW always states that a space Marine Chapter existis out of roughly a 1000 battle brothers divided in 10 companies of a 100 each. and they give out rosters with all of these in battlefield roles. Now I know that menials make for a lot of logistic and mechanical support but in my mind a chapter has closer to 2000 Marines then 1000. Hear me out: A full primaris chapter with; 10 battle companies of 100 men + leadership 1 Captain, 2 Lieutenants, an acient, a chaplain, apothecary, techmarine and librarian at least (they do need need to be present) so we are at 1080 marines, then we need to add the Chapter master, his staff of lieutenants, chapter ancient, the high caplain, chief apothecary and a chief librarian and a Master of the forge. 1088, but they have to have aprentices too if we sat one aprentice for each librarian, apotecary etc... we are at 1132 marines. But wait, every company has vehicles lets go with 40 Impulsors, 20 Repulsors (variants), 20 gladiator (variants), 20 Storm speeders (variants) all have a crew of 3 except for the impulsors who have a crew of 2 this is 260 operator marines wich totals up to 1392 marines. A chapter also has its share of dreadnoughts and ivictors lets say 20 / 10 so an extra 30 marines (ok 20 are interned, but I still count them) up we go to 1422. Another part of a chapter is its airwing to deliver the marines on the ground, as Thunderhawks can carry primaris I take these as the primary way to deliver marines to the surface. A company probably has 4 thunderhawks for troops / bikes / dreadnoughts and 2 for vehicles. These have a crew of 4 marines and gun servitors (2 pilots, master gunner and a navigator/coms oficer) so ad another 240 marines to the chapter and we end on a total of 1662 marines. I didn't even acount for bigger vehicles like the astreus or simply more vehicles. I also think that every strike cruiser and battle barge would have its own space Marine captain and guard compliment to secure it while the rest are deployed. And other interceptors/craft like the regular marine xyphon have not been counted to the tally as they don't exist yet in the lore. So if you add these in a chapter is closer to the 2000 mark, with a 1000 dedicated battle brothers. - this is not to say that the other marines can't fill in this role ofc :p
But, as the Astartes are meant to serve humanity and the empire as a whole; should we not interpret a refusal to serve the imperium to be anti-loyalist?
they are the howls in the night, the gleaming eyes that stalk the edge of the firelight and the falling axe which severes the threads of traitors. the Wolves answer to the Emperor, no one else. Fenrys Hjolda, for Russ and the All Father.
Taking the fight to demon prince primarchs (Angron, Magnus), bucking the inquisition successfully, and having the only Primarch to not only harm Horus but to defeat his ascended form in combat among many other achievements lends them quite a bit of prestige that any other chapters would be hard pressed to emulate. Im about the Scars myself but I raise my cup to the honorable and ferocious sons of Russ, SKOL
@@chucklytell They didn't do shit to Angron. 103 grey knight took the lord of the red sands and sent him back to the warp. The wolves came after the battle was won. Also, Fenris would have been a burning wreck had Kysanros wanted to. He just didn't want to shatter the planet of a first founding chapter. That's why he tried to talk with Bjorn, but The Old Wolf got a deus ex machina and arrived on time.
@@TheLostPrimarch2nd came after the battle was won? the Wolves were boots on the ground all the way through the 1st war for armageddon, the grey knights turned up where and when Grimnar told them to.
@@AnikaJarlsdottr Both things are true. Grimnar fought the war of Armageddon, and when he saw he wasn't going to win, and couldn't win against a Daemon Primarch, he sent for the Sons of Titan. But the last battle of the war, the battle against the Blessed Higher Choirs of Khorne and Angron and his bodyguards, it was the 103 Grey Knights who won that battle, losing 90 of their ranks on the process. Grimnar fought the war. Captain Taremar Aurelia the Golden of the 666th, and his brother, won it.
Wolf Lord Rhos Grimnar video only having 21k views after a year should really tell you everything you need to know about the current day Space Wolves, they have simply turned into a meme. The role they had has long since been taken by the far more interesting Inquisition. From time to time they get a book but its content never has any significances on the main plot and is always full of things that try to give the space furries some shine but make very little sense, such as Guilliman just ignoring the murder of a Lord Inquisitor or deciding to bow to a chapter master that clearly has far more pride than fitting for his chapters station. The general timeline often feels more cohesive if you simply ignore any Space Wolf centric books its a real shame. They need a reason to exist and to have an aim or goal, for a long time they have just been crap Black Templars.
Listen man i will not tolerate anyone disrespecting The Avenging Son, Roboutte Guilliman! I am 2 years new to the Warhammer world but the very first video i ever saw was The Return of Guilliman. Dude was sleep for 10,000 years, wakes up in the middle of an attack, kicked EVERY ASS he saw and then asked questions!! I'm an Ultramarine to the end!!! 😡
The best part about Gav "The First Matt Ward" Thorpe writing Wolves now is that he is hopefully done with The First. One can truly hope. *fingers crossed* I feel for you Wolf Fans. Strap a helmet on. It's about to get Thorpie.
Voldus: You seem troubled, my lord Guilliman. Guilliman: Troubled falls short, Supreme Grand Masters. The Wolves are being a problem. Azrael: Told you they would be. Voldus: Yeah, yeah, I know you did. Wish we has tried a little bit harder during the Months of Shame. A pity we were so spent. Azrael: You vanquished Angron, I think you have more than a justification there. Voldus: Indeed. Remember Pandorax? Azrael: Oh, that I do. It was quite the campaign. Voldus: You know..... I jus had a crazy idea..... Azrael: You fight demos every day of the week 24/7, Aldrik. Every one of your ideas is crazy. Voldus: How about we do a Second Pandorax...... Azrael: Aja? Voldus: On Fenris.......? Azrael: Have you gone nuts already? Voldus: No, no, think about it. Dark Angels and Grey Knights, the most knightly chapters joined together to show the wolves their place as the leashed dogs they are. Azrael: To kick the mutts down a few notches. We would be outnumbered 5 to 1, you barely have any brothers to spend. Voldus: True, and you are also lacking warriors for such...... Guilliman: Crusade approved. Voldus and Azrael: My lord?! Guilliman: I'm tired of people being stupid just becouse the feel like being the noble idiot is the moral right thing to do, and I'm tired of people making my considerably imposible job a lot harder. Go, kick the Old Wolf's teeth in, ruffle their fur and leave a few bruises, then come back to the front lines. I'll give you primaris for it, Azrael. Also.... Voldus: You had us at kicking Grimnar's teeth in, sire. Azrael: He'll yeah you did. You bring the hammer? Voldus: And you bring Azmodai. This is going to be veeeery entertaining. (They both leave) Guilliman: Should I worry? Saint Celestine: Worry, why my prince? Bobby G: I have just sent them to fight the Rout, the Wolfs of Fenris. Cute Winged Waifu: Yes, you did. Blue King: So? Will the be fine? Celestine: Oh, do not worry. The Wolf might be mighty, but against the First and the 666th, they are going to get a fistful of their own medicine. Guilliman: So...... Prospero 2.0? Celesine: Why, of course not my lord. Your lord father's knights are not ones to leave a job unfinished. Roboute: Leman is going to be pissy after this........ But fuck it, he can choke on a furball. Someone call Dante, I need to have a chat with my suicidal nephew. Edit: mistakes in orthography.
Aldrik, psh, Grey Knights are meant for Demon Hunting not going against other Legions. Waste of manpower and resources as well as going against purpose. And the Dark Angels, Azrael. Throw something about the Fallen in the next system over and they'll all come running. One's too secretive and obsessives about their own traitorous kin because if anyone else found out then they'd be embarrassed and wound their pride, I highly doubt a faction so focused on their image would be as loyal compared to the Wolves. The other, as I said, is meant for one thing and one thing only: to deal with Chaos and the Warp, to vanquish demons, and to stem their corruption. Why would you throw them at another legion unless you were some stupid ass Inquisitor on his high horse, here's a saying for the Grey Knights, "Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes."
Vulkan: I know the Wolves are a pain in the derrière but they’re our pain in the derrière. We’re not attacking fellow Imperial forces just because they’re obnoxious.
Grimnar is to grizzled, to experienced and to wise to not be suspicious. You dont become the man Logan is by being the fool. Guilliman knows this to. And its not a bad thought of Guilliman that Russ could return and Russ would not forgive him a second time ...
While it rectified the situation I believe Guilliman both coming to Ferris and waiting for an invitation to enter the system should’ve been enough. NO Primarch should ever kneel to anyone save the Emperor of Mankind.
I love my fellow battle brothers of the Rout but Allfather’s fingernails can they be absolute idiots sometimes. I mean these Primaris lads may not have passed the Test of Morkai, and the rest of the Imperium has screwed us over more than once, but we were absolutely desperate for new pups. -Jarl Hydyr Leifclaw of the 10th Great Company. (OC)
Following the background and themes of 40K, Primaris simply shouldn't be accepted and is such heresy that they'd be rejected violently by significant proportions of the Imperium... Except GW wants to copyright their Marines further and sell all the Marine players new armies so the whole background just isn't respected. So Space Wolves accepted the Primaris and GW clap themselves on the back.
This is why I do not like the Space Wolves, why expect a Primarch that is doing everything to save the Imperium to prostrate himself to satiate the great wolf's pride. In Guilliman kneeling, he showed his loyalty, in the wolves defiance, they proved their inferiority.
Faster, stronger, smarter and much more durable. They also have better power armour and more advanced tech. Though I'm guessing that will be pushed out to all chapters. Basically Space marines on steroids.
@@MrBounce66 Faster Stronger and Tougher yes, not necessarilly smarter though. the firstborn Space Wolves in particular found that their primaris brothers were stronger and faster, but when they came face to face with a demon prince, the primaris were left in disarray and the firstborn had to finish the kill.
Coming from one wolf Lord to another some other wolf Lords wouldn't recognize me as such (PlayStation dispute)I'm not sure I can trust Grimnar anymore with that supposedly former deamon axe of his just one of those things it doesn't matter how many wolf Priests iron priests iron priests have blessed that axe deamons are sneaky bastards also if Leaman Russ were around in the material he be both be both thankfull and skeptical of his brother giving his nature how the emperor created him and yes I know my comment is really late to the party but I feel so just how Russ would be
Glad to see am not the only one concerned about that axe . Chaos corruption can be subtle and one can never be too careful hence the extremely stringent measures taken when dealing with chaos creatures and relics. And given the wolves hot headedness and violent tendencies, khorne probably has an eye for them and if a high ranking member like grimnar was to be corrupted then he will drag many astartes down with him, he needs to get rid of that axe asap .
I for one think GW went kinda weird with storyline of Guilliboy kneeling before chapter masters. Hes a living primarch, a son of the Emperor and Lord Commander'n'shit appointed by said God-Emperor. I think every chapter master, in the absence of their respective Primarchs, should stfu and kneel and obey. Anything else they basicaly disobeying the Emperor and should be terminated. Its like the Pope disobeying Jesus. How about that ?!
I've said it before and I'll say it again. A lot of people focus on either the Wolf or Space portion of the Vylka Fenrika, and forget the Viking portion.
"A gift always goes seeking a gift" is a classic Viking saying.
The viking part is mu favorite part though.
tbh during Third edition, the wolf part was WAY more important that it became after 5th edition. I prefer Wolverine to Thor, so that were bad news for me :P
Can't really blame people for focusing on the "Wolf". The lore of the Vylka Fenrika didn't get alot of creativity for a long time, and because of that EVERY SINGLE DAMN THING BECAME A WOLF.
The image of Ragnar taking a morning Wolf shit, while reading a book about wolves, on his Wolf crapper, after eating Wolf toast, smoking a Wolf cigarette, and drinking his Wolf coffee, Wolf, Wolf, wOlF, WoLf, Wolf, Wolf, Worf, Wolf, Wolf, Wolf spelled backwards is Flow, Wolf, f%ckiddy, Wolf, Wolf, Wolf, Wolf, Lowf, Olwf, is never leaving my mind after reading their books.
The Wolftime novel really gives us alot of insight we didnt have before. Great context. I do agree that a interaction between Bjorn and Guilliman is needed. That would be an awesome read for sure.
I wonder if Guilliman bowing before Grimnar was also some way of him apologizing to Russ for the codex? we know thanks to the dark imperium series that Gulliman regrets the braking down of the legions, So him showing deference to Grimnar is as close as he believes he can come to apologizing to his brother. That's my two sense on it anyway.
They've possibly retconned the lore around the breaking of the legions then.
Russ actually agreed with the chapters and saw the reasoning behind Guilliman's decision. The only point Russ disagreed with was how small the chapters were. He was also a bit upset Jonson wasn't there because he thought he should have had a say. But of course they didn't know Jonson was entombed in the rock at that stage.
He showed Dante same respect on Baal and Calgar on Macragge its just politics
@@BM-wf9uf
Russ was vehemently against disbanding the legions even though he knew why it had to be done.
People do forget RG put his money where was his mouth was by splitting his force the most.
Dont overthink it fool this is how theories are always wrong
I have been saying it since wolftime was shown initially, the only thing I wanted was a guillimane and Bjorn conversation. I think that would be so interesting
It’s a real shame that did not happen
Guilliman: "here you new marines with the-"
Space wolf: "yeah sure whatever time for you to leave"
Guilliman: "...I see..goo-"
Bjorn:"WAAAAIIIITT!!!" *dreadnought screams echoing, with each step the earth shacks*
Guilliman: "who are you noble warrio-"
Bjorn: "DONT GIVE ME THAT!!!" *wolves kneeling in*
Bjorn:"YOU KNOW WHO I AM, I WAS THERE!!"
*the wolves shacking, waiting to hear of this great dishonor*
Bjorn: "WHEN YOU SLIPPED ON XENO BLOOD AND FELL DOWN LONGEST HILL EVER SEEN!!!" *dreadnought chuckles*
Guilliman: ".....BJORN!!!"
Bjorn:"hahaha good to see you alive and well jarl of ultramare." *dreadnought slaps guilliman on the back*
Bjorn: "come, have a drink, we must talk of better times my friend" *the two walk to nearest pub has wolves are in shock and horror*
@@Fourtytwo4242 wouldn't that be the greatest, Bjorn reveals some old embarrassment that guillimane doesn't want put there. That's why guillimane didn't want to have word with Bjorn.
Even if it is just a short story!
I think the most accurate representation of the Space Wolves was said by the Kharn. "The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have a discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls. The Wolves will always come to heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does..."
Kharn is just a rabid traitor though and wolves are loyal to their pack like Russ was
This really makes me sad, Kharn was actually cool before Chaos.
@@kccustodes2618 he was
@@christophercombs7561 chaos ruins the interesting bits of characters (even primarchs), making them 1 dimensional walking cliches.
@@christophercombs7561 I think his books and short stories have fleshed him out. He's lost everything. Everything. There is only one path for him now, the Red Path. He'll shoulder that burden like he shouldered Angron's, his legion's and his Nails.
Because the authors wanted to create drama for sake of drama….. Guilliman- “Do you want free weapons, technology and reinforcements for nothing , seriously no strings attached.Just kick some ass.” Grimnar “Fack off”
Feels like with each new story there's a reason to undermine the Wolves and make them idiotic which is sad.
Because the lore needs to show that there are drawbacks as well as perks to the Wolves’ way of thinking - their inability to see the bigger picture or much of anything beyond their own pride.
And because the plot needed thickening.
The Wolves' stubbornness is the corn starch of the 41k plot.
What about flaws of Bobby?
When Guilliman took the knew it is in the same nature how Guilliman earned the respect of the barbarian tribes of Macrag when his father king Konor sent his son Guilliman to pacify the barbarian tribes.
If Russ could see Guilliman take a knee b4 Grimnar he would be like 'Damn you Roboute' with a wolf-like smile.
OP wolfies, quite boring really.
I just realized the Space Wolves were acting like my dog whenever anyone comes over. They bark angrily until they realize that person means no harm.
When you put it like that...
Oof 😭
THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE
False. Testing someones true intent with Alpha confrontation then mediation is the true alpha way. Not being a toy soildier. Having ones own initiative fully in play AND being the alpha legion warriors puts The Space Wolves at the top of the legion. .even if none of the honors and titles cross their armour. .A true alpha needs no praise.
Yeah you also know what true AlPhaS do? Their job. And not bitch and moan to their superior, in every sense of the word, cause they know they are not as capable and humble enough to know their limits. What you described fits little children and dogs
The Wolves may be the Emperor's execution force but an executioner doesn't have the freedom to just kill any threat to the kingdom. He has to be pointed toward a target and can't just take the initiative into his on hands.
when Malcador posed that same concern to Big E, the Emps response was that Russ would never betray the imperium, one of the few he could say that about.
The wolves maybe the Emperor's executioners but the Custodes are the Emperor's Marines.
Gulliman turns up with Custodes and the Emperor's flaming sword.
Can the Wolves take on and defeat the Emperor's custodes???
I think not.
@@timothylyons5686 damn dude, show us on the doll where the space furries touched you? xD
@@AnikaJarlsdottr l'm a Necron Lord.
The only good Space Wolf is a dead Space Wolf.
Yeah this was a pretty hot take by Rho. I feel like anything involving the Wolves he loses perspective and impartiality. Guilliman bowing to Grimnar is just fellating Space Wolf fans and undermines Guilliman's authority.
All of this conjecture but really what can anyone do about it? Guilliman has 10's of thousands if not 100's of thousands of completely loyal primaris, the backing of the Adeptus Custodes and the patronage of the Emperor. He doesn't need a thousand or so out of date space wolves to give him their blessing. This is purely a symbolism thing and unnecessary pandering to Grimnar. Repsect to Guilliman for playing their little games though so they can feel good about themselves.
Personally I’m not sure it was a great move, it’s probably leaving the possibility of Grimnar doing something stupid down the track.
Guilliman making like his father and punching Grimnar out just like the Big E did to Russ seems more fitting.
@@psychedashell fully agree
@@psychedashell not in context of the last 10000 years of imperial behavior if robute ever had true respect for Russ him paying respects to logan is the least he could do and frankly if robute did something to the wolves and Russ did come back it would not be good for either the imperium nor the ultramarines
@@christophercombs7561 Grimnar is going to lose respect for the kneeler just like Russ never had any for the kneeler of his era.
@@psychedashell that depends on what robute does imo
If the emperor gave guilliman the title lord commander and authority over the imperium, and the wolves only follow the emperors orders, than why are they not following guilliman. He has director authority from the emperor himself
Thought the lords of Terra gave him the title, not the emperor himself
@@robertkropp3490 Yet Guiliman spoke to the Big E and has his sword. He IS acting in the Emperors name, why would the -furries- Space Wolves doubt that?
^^^ pretty sure he's correct.
Sometimes, Firstborn Astartes can be the ultimate choosing beggars.
Guilliman saw the existence of the Ecclesiarchy and didn't set about dismantling it, one can easily see that whatever issues he ever had with the Space Wolves, he'd never try and at all harm them.
I would love to see Guilliman change the limited of number of marines from 1000 to possibly to 2000 or remove it all together.
I don't think it will get to hairy between them. It will be more if a , hey Russ imma gonna give you a whole lot of dakka and let go of your leash. Go forth and do what you do best, but when it comes to the different loyalist planets please refer to how we are trying to run things now when dealing with them.
did you say that 3 marines would be overkill to conquest a human world and that 1 would be enough? i heard that somewhere and i cant stop thinking about the logistics of that... mainly, that it would be impossible for 3 marines to go through the entire planet in a reasonable time
Cato Sicarius was sorta put in that situation , feudal world with Orks, given time he prolly would have became king , had he never reunited with imperium
@@DanielScutt i wasnt talking about killing. for example, 10 marines, could kill anything our earth could throw at them... but while they are fighting on asia, the rest of the world is doing their thing. to the time they get to western europe, asia might already be doing its thing again.
they could be killing non stop day and night but there are just too much people and space between people.
The Astartes were designed as a spear tip force, the way the Warmaster used the Luna Wolves. So the Spear tip tears out the throat of the world effectively killing it, the world may thrash and lash out but it does not know it is already dead. The IG then mops up
I think it was in the Iron Snakes novel by Dan Abnett. One marine to take a city, one squad to take a planet, one chapter to take an empire. Or something like that.
@@emanymton7184 mad really then you read about 100s of them dying if not 1000s on baal etc just makes you think actually how big the tyranids threat really is
They've completely retconned the relationship between Russ and the Codex then, as it used to be that Russ loved the idea of chapters, (hence the failed Wolf Brothers chapter) and wanted to create a ring of Space Wolf successors around the EoT, to guard against the traitor legions return. He just didn't agree with the limit on their numbers
Or the wolves have forgotten that fact, potentially at least
@@hunterskidmore1672 good point
@@hunterskidmore1672 it has been 10000 years after all :P
Retcon? Or forgotten? Everything is Canon. Not everything is true.
Isn't it that the wolves only dislike being weakened? I don't think they would react so poorly to another Wolf chapter, but rather react poorly to having their men taken for it.
Great Job Rho. This video made me subscribe. Love the insight. Love the wolves!
New to warhammer lore and love hearing it so far, thank you for the video
Come on, man. There should be a reasonable limit to any bullshit.
It's not "the loss of his father and so many of his brothers...". It's the brother he killed and those in whose defection he actively participated. And his father wouldn't have had to sit on the golden throne had he done his job and brought Magnus back to Terra. Even more, if he hadn't plotted against Magnus leading to the Nicaea council.
I love the wolves of Fenris. They are a great legion with some awesome lore. Somehow though, Russ was written as a character that has stepped on every rake and made every mistake. So no, no excuses for Russ.
On the other hand, it opened the stage for Logan, who in my opinion has outgrown his gene father and became what Russ should have.
You are making me want to read up on the lore more after the battle for Fenris when the Wulfen returned. I was at best okay with the lore during 5th edition till then. But the lore from that battle an onward I haven't read much of.
Honestly if Russ learned one of his sons disrespected Guilliman, he would straight up kill Logan. Russ is on record that a Primarch can disagree with another Primarch, but that Marines shut up and do what they're told. Even with the implementation of the Codex, Russ would never tolerate even a Chapter Lord disrespecting the Avenging Son.
Provided he had no idea what the last 10000 years events were
The avenging son are able to slay grimnar out of existence but you need to know that first founding chapter is very influential in imperium politics and if he do harm the wolves it would generate bad image toward him and his Ultramarine. Lots of bad things can be happens
@@danendraarkananta9442 I think you're way over estimating the High Lords love for Grimnar and the Wolves. The average people might love him, but the ruling class would happily get rid of them. They've tried it before, multiple times. Hell the
Ecclesiarchy has an active standing execution force whose sole purpose is to isolate and execute Space wolf officers in secret.
@@danendraarkananta9442 of course robute could easily kill Logan but the ramifications of doing so would be very very bad considering what the wolves have done for the civilians of the imperium especially on Armageddon
@@AngelWolf12 im not said specific towards space wolf but about the first founding chapter by general. And yes im aware about the inquisition
How did Grimnar react when Gulliman bowed at him? I can't imagine it would be comfortable for an Astartes to have a literal demigod, son of the Emperor, basically a prince of the imperium do that...
I would like to point out that girlyman new that grimnar fought and bannished magnus and that the emperium spent so much time attack the wolves girlyman bowed because he is the ultimate statesman and he knew it was not only the only way but it was owed to the wolves
I love that display of humility by Guilliman by kneeling before Grimnar.
Of all the qualities the primachs have, humility is not among them. Guilliman only knelt because he calculated that it would benefit him more than it would hurt. He needed the Wolves to bolster the morale of the Imperium and for the Wolves to survive they needed Primaris marines.
The true relation between Terra and Fenris is shown in a throwaway line where someone demands to a Custodian that they are not "Space wolves" but "Wolves of Fenris". The Custodian simply remarks "The Wolves do not belong to Fenris. They belong to the Emperor." Every Astartes immediately backs down after that. I have no doubt that Guilliman could pull off something like easily, but he wants Grimnar on his side and having to kill him would be counterproductive.
@@wanderhillen2435 Mate. Guilliman isn't some kind of manipulative psychopath. I don't know why people seem so keen to tear him down. Calculating ones best odds of success is totally normal human behaviour.
@@wanderhillen2435 Considering the context, Guilliman has 0 obligation to bow, to negotiate, to recognise the 'sovereignty of the wolves'. But he did so anyways, because he understands and values the nature of the wolves. If he wanted to be a dick. He could have dispatched his fleet in system ignoring what the wolves wanted. With custodes at the front.
It actually really sounds like the Wolves are traitors. Considering Leman Ruses piss poor performance during the Heresy, this really downgrades the wolves in my books.
Russ gave himself to the Emperor after the Emperor punched him out.
Pappa Smurf bowing to Grimnar rather than slapping him into submission leaves the possibility of Grimnar doing something stupid down the line.
@@jamesespinosa690 I don't know where you see me describing Guilliman as a psychopath? He's calculating, efficient and politically gifted, that's his unique primarch thing. When he wants to get the Wolves on his side, that takes a different approach to (say) convincing the Imperial Fists. Big G knows that and alters his behavior accordingly. That in itself is not psychopathy, certainly not on the scale of the other primarchs. The Emperor himself has done way more hectic shit than Guilliman ever will.
That said, I do think the primarchs have real psychological problems. Their (somewhat justified) tendency to see themselves as being above every other being in the imperium except their brothers and the Emperor easily leads them to see others as tools. The fact that the Salamanders are considered exceptional when they actually care about humans says enough about how common that behavior apparently is.
Imagine the lion or the khan had returned instead, such disrespect wouldn't have been taken lightly, the wolves are lucky that the primarch is more tolerating.
I was just thinking this, if it was any other than rowboat fenris may have ended up a smoking forgotten husk.
Doubtfull, 1 has respect for the Space Wolves and knows it to be a tactical error to erase them, and the other was buddy buddy with Russ.
Ya neither of the primarchs you named are stupid enough to do that.
The Lion could have done it during the genocides, but decided not to, he knows the loyalty of the wolves, hotheaded as they may be; the Khan wouldnt ever, he is actually a swell guy, quiet as he is.
Yeah, they'd know the hit to Imperial morale would be too great, 1, and 2, there is no force capable of replacing the Space Wolves in the Imperium, it would be a fool's decision to eradicate such valuable and loyal sons. And neither the Lion nor the Khan are fools. Well, the Lion might do it on a bad day.
Not that I'm saying the Wolves are the best or most numerous, just that nobody's gonna fill their shoes if they get merk'd.
Really cool vid. New to the Warhammer lore, and to the Wolves. Looking forward to more. Sub added
I like how Bjorn sidestepped the issue Good Hunting Grimnar leave me out of it
Pretty agile for a dreadnought
It was pretty funny when he noped out.
Grimnar can't spend his strength on the orks because he knows they will just learn from his forces and only get stronger. He is smart enough to know that the Imperial Guard is the only force that has a hope of stopping the orks due to the scale of the threat. He knows that the wolves are best held back ready to continue the fight against traitor legion forces and in case Guilliman needs to be sanctioned. That was always the Wolves role, after all.
Being a bunch of lazy stupid clods? Yup
This actually brings up an interesting thought for why Guilliman won't allow Traitor geneseed to be used: those Legions 100% could not be controlled.
Guilliman isn't afraid they'll betray the Emperor, he's afraid they'll interfere with his plans.
To bad cawl threw a big middle finger at him
I don't really agree. Visualise a scenario where the Iron Hands are required to work alongside a primaris chapter descended from Fulgrim? How do you think that would go down? It's pretty basic and logical if you think about it.
Before the Heresy I recall squads of Wolves were despatched to the retinue of each of the Primarchs. I know we saw some of the stories of these with some of the traitor Primarchs but I don't recall seeing any with the ones sent to Guilliman or for that matter the Lion, Sanguinius, the Khan, etc. Might be an interesting story or two there.
He had them In multiple books. The I remembered empire they guarded him and his mother. The squad of them Even fought off Conrad curze. And they where there when big G walked down to meet the lion on Macragge and the top wolf challenged the lion to a duel.
@@davidring681 I still think it's an underserved story arc. The Wolves are interesting characters and seeing them face down the different cultures of the various Legions courts as essentially intrusive watchkeepers would be intriguing. How for example are the Wolves treated by the Alpha Legion preHeresy?
Never realized how dope Guillimans armor looks
I don't know in the 10000 years has Macragge/Guilliman tried to mess with the other chapters? Not to my knowledge. They have not harassed the 1st with their issues and secrets or the vast unforgiven parading a pseudo chapters. Seems unfounded sense of paranoia.
Well guilliman was in stasis and taking him out would have killed him, so I don’t think he was in the position to do anything. Afterwards the ultramarines are just another chapter so wouldn’t have had the power to interfere with other chapters if they wanted to
@@finlayames6216 You say _just_ another chapter, but they outnumber all other loyalist chapters. They have more than enough power to... _interfere_ with the business of their cousins.
If you're not pulling up on Macragge with hax like a full Thousand Suns force (who can punch well above their weight with psychic powers) or their weird and wonderful mega weapons of the Dark Angels (who don't exactly follow the codex anyway), their numbers alone make it impossible for _any_ other chapter to touch the UltraMarines.
@@henryviiifake8244 except they don’t outnumber other chapters since they have 1000 marines like all other codex compliant chapters…. Which is like 99% of them. They have a fair amount of political power as they are an original legion, but little more then any other of the old legions. And their marines are natively any better then any other chapter, you sound like Matt ward. And above all, they don’t fight other loyalists since they are all on the same side. There’s very few outbreaks of conflicts between loyal marines since the heresy and those that do normally lead to one side being called renegade and kicked out.
So I'm standing in Barnes & Noble today and I'm looking at the immense number of books there are from the Black Library and as it's been awhile since I've read any of them, ( as life has been crazy) I wanted to pick up with a new series. I had no idea what to do and then I said "Hey let me just check out what Wolf Lord Rho is saying/talking about today".
LOL needless to say , I came home with a copy of "The Wolf Time" and I am extremely happy that I did! So THANK YOU BROTHER !
AS ALWAYS YOU CAME THROUGH AGAIN!
I base my reading decisions (WRHMMR40K),
upon your learned knowledge of the subject AND because you enjoy the same kind/feel of a books writing that I know will keeo me invested and turning pages. Because let's be honest, even when reading a 40K book , if the author('s) DON'T QUITE DO IT THE JUSTICE IT DESERVES....IT WILL END UP IN THE BOOK EXCHANGE BOX AT THE CO OP BY MY HOUSE!! (SIDENOTE: There is a little kid who KNOWS I do my grocery shopping on Thursdays...and also drop off my books and see if there are any gem's left by another. AND THIS KID WAITS FOR MY FANTASY, D&D, AND 40K BOOKS! LOL, Mind you, they are NOT THE ONES THAT I ABSOLUTELY LOVE, just ones that I have read once, were maybe a good read, but once finished, would just become spaces on my shelf that need filling by A BETTER BOOK. SO, he gets a new 40K book, The Lore gets a NEW FAN, His Mom smiles at me, And I GET TO FILL AN EMPTY SPACE ON MY SHELF WITH A NEW NOVEL! WINS ALL AROUND!)
So THANK YOU RHO FOR A GREAT CHANNEL WITH GREAT CONTENT! THIS SON OF CORAX PRAISES YOU!
Don’t you think it’s weird that the Emperors genetically crafted executioners made to destroy any other Astartes who crossed him had “issues” with the other legions?
Minotaur does that better than the wolves
@@danendraarkananta9442 The Minotaur don't care who they go against, they'll take on anyone the High Lords tell them to. The Minotaur are the High Lords' Lapdogs.
@@danendraarkananta9442 they absolutely do not do it better than the vlka fenryka my good sir!
I think RG's key characteristic is honour and leadership, does he just bow or does he fully take a knee? Because a bow is a sign of respect, a knee is that of submission. RG respects the wolves as the emperor's executioners and I think he trusts that should corruption exist in the loyalists, the wolves would deal with it, as they always have.
Would love to see that conversation
the wolves come off as very arrogant needing for their ego to be appeased before they agree to anything.
Not when talen into context of the imperium trying to tear the wolves down at every opportunity
Yeah they are the most tiresome played out chapter to me, author's are incapable of writing a space wolf outside of the tropes at this point
How many of the loyalist legions are actually compliant with the codex? As shown here the Wolves are not, the Imperial Fists created the last wall protocol to reform as a legion, the Dark Angels successors have Grand Masters but only the Dark Angels themselves have a Supreme Grand Master.
The codex isnt the bible of military space marine tactics pretty sure it was supposed to be a guideline
So far as we know, the main "Non codex compliant" chapters are Space Wolves, Blood Angels, White Scars and Black Templars, but there are probably a great many more deeper in the lore that my dumb brain hasn't found yet xD
@@AnikaJarlsdottr Dark Angels as well, iirc
@@AnikaJarlsdottr blood angels follow like 99% of the codex. Their only notable change is death company (which by their nature are temporary) and sanguinary guard (which are comparable to elite honour guards from other chapters)
@@finlayames6216 fair point, I apologise
I want Guilliman to show up to Fenris and walk right up to Grimnar and simply say "Kneel" I want Guilliman to go full totalitarian dictator
That would never fly the wolves ONLY report to Russ or the EMPEROR not to one of the others
@@christophercombs7561 Then they would get decimated. It is tiring having them do stuff like that through out the lore. Russ really screwed the defense of terra simply because he had no self discipline
@@papagyekelartey1969 if the custodes showed or actual divine inspiration from the Big E considering how talkative it would placate the wolves and their completely justified suspicion of imperial agents
If Gulliman had said " listen, l've spoken to dad and he's said it's all fine.Accept these new marines or be marked down as heretics"
"no one has ever, or will ever question our loyalty"
Bjorn the Fell Handed
also, fairly certain Big E told Malcador that Russ was one of the only primarchs he knew would never betray the imperium, that has to have rubbed off on his sons.
@@AnikaJarlsdottr russ is not the space wolfs of the 40k
@@alcatras201 come again?
@@alcatras201 so, you are questioning the loyalty of the space wolfs? Bold words for someone placed in the same galaxy!
I am not sure we will ever get a Guilliman and Bjorn interaction. I can see Bjorn refusing to meet with Guiliman.
I may be in minority here since the Rho is a Space Wolves fan but I totally disagree with all this. "Guilliman wants to control Space Wolves"... Horus Heresy just happened that resulted in the deaths of Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius as well as a placement of The Emperor on the Golden Throne. So Guilliman comes out with Codex Astartes that will split the remaining Legions into Chapters so nothing similar would ever occur. This whole controling the Space Wolves makes zero logic cause Guilliman's Ultramarines were the biggest legion by such a margin that they could easily 1v1 any other loyalist or traitor legion. With loyalist it could even be said 1v2 no problems. But whatever - splitting Space Wolves into 2 chapters was controlling... Then he comes back from death 10k years later and tries to piece the Imperium together in the worst times possible and then another Space Wolf is like - Nope, you ain't be controllin us dud.
I mean give me a break... I bet Guilliman in that moment thought why he even bothers at that point...
Sure the ultramarines out numbered any other legion but the wolves with Russ would have eaten them alive
@@christophercombs7561 no they would have been torn apart by the ultramarines, the ultramarines founded 23 chapters in the second founding meaning they probably had about 24,000 astartes. The space wolves only founded the wolf brothers chapter during the second founding. Giving a more liberal estimate on the space wolves legions number at the time of the second founding they were probably at about at 3,000 to 4,000 astartes. They would be outnumbered 6 to 1 and in that situation the ultramarines carry the day.
@@colinbielat8558 Guys guys guys xD Stop with this civil war heresy here ;d We all are loyal sons of the Emperor. I actually think that initital numbers of the Ultramarines before the splitting of legions were bigger than that. It is estimated that they had numbers higher than 100k before the Horus Heresy and they didn't lose that much till the end. Maybe the scouring series will change that but anyway. We all know that Leman Russ would easily defeat Guilliman but Ultramarines were not only hugely outnumbering the Space Wolves but also better tactically. Especially Papa G so it would probably go like Russ vs Angron. Russ would be able to defeat Guilliman but would be rekt by endless hordes of Ultramarines. Anyway that was not my initial point. The point was that there was no reason for controlling the Space Wolves when Ultrasmurfs were so big in numbers. Also Guilliman was not afraid of Russ going heretical. Remember that he counted Russ in his Dauntless Few. It was all in all a precaution for when the primarchs would be no more. Just look at this stupid Badab War. What if Lufgt Huron would be a Legion Master and be able to persuade or lie to at least one or two other Legion Masters? We would have another Horus Heresy... At the end of it we would have a decrease in loyalist legions by almost 40%... And another point is that this whole holding grudge 10k years later is just dumb and hurts the Imperium in the long run. I disliked Space Wolves in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. Highly hypocritical and reckless... But I actually like them in 40k since they always defended the innocent and didn't take any shit from the Inquisition and actually fought them. So I really liked those ideas but this whole grudge thing is illogical and stupid.
@@colinbielat8558 lol no the ultra marines woyld have gottne tgeir heart ripped out Russ beats girlyman hands down
@@christophercombs7561 russ can't beat 24,000 astartes opening fire on him, guillimans main strength is that he knows how to get the most out of his troops, he would bait russ into a trap and then annihilate him and the space wolves that remain. Russ and 4,000 space wolves would be completely annihilated. No primarch can survive a conflict in which they are out numbered 6 to 1 against another force of astartes command by another primarch, especially against the one primarch who is probably the most tactically gifted of all the primarchs.
Interesting to think that Russ’ first thoughts were “The Lion would be on my side”
Ngl, pre sure most of the Space Wolves defiance stems from not being able to properly understand what half the words in the codex astartes actually mean.
No offensive to the Great Wolf, but there is pride and there is stupidity, the whole purpose of the division of the Legion was so that no singular individual to hold that much power that plunged the whole Galaxy into the Horus Heresy. Grimnar is a great hero to the Imperium, but he is allowing the pride of the Space Wolves to get the way in the protection of the Imperium and its people, and it’s shows once they’ve accepted the Primaris into their ranks that their really was no foul play involved. The Lord Commander may be many things, but he valued his brothers and their legions, and in truth I worry for the future of the Space Wolves and their successors if this paranoia continues to grow from the Great Wolf, perhaps his Axe is growing in power now that rift is open and subtlety being influenced by it.
Guilliman accomplished what even Horus couldn't. Guilliman broke the Legions. Logan Grimnar has every right to be concerned that Guilliman would do it again. The Imperium seeks to strangle the Wolves, now Guilliman is back and might seek to finish the job. Neuter the Wolves whilst controlling a legion of his own.
@@smithingbear7522 Funny enough Guilliman has had the same thought of whether his decision to split the legions was correct. I'm inclined to believe it was a knee jerk reaction in response to the heresy.
@@smithingbear7522 He may have broke the legions but after his resurrection realised it was a mistake. Besides you've got to understand each ones motivation for doing so.
@@MrGlobbits so he realizes he screwed up 10,000 years after he screwed up and you expect everyone to just be cool with it?
@Z. Michael Gehlke and people have a right to be wary of the man that accomplished what no traitor could
Reading through ”old” Lore, codexes etc, sw were probably 2x bigger than codex compliant chapters at a minimum, some could say they numbered many times more. I like to think that they were many times bigger, manning one of the biggest bastions in the galaxy + other installations in an around the fenris system.
In the Fall of Cadia stuff, right after Warzone Fenris, when you look at the number of "Great Companies" it listed as deployed to various planets around Cadia, it totals 17...meaning 5 Great Companies more than we knew of...and that was after at least 2 were practically wiped out during Warzone Fenris. So, the Wolves have a lot more than thd Codex 1000. They MIGHT get around this by saying that Blood Claws only count as Initiates, not full Battle Brothers(which is using a loop-hole, as Initiates/Scouts don't seem to count for the 1000 Battle Brothers total).
@@alexbrown1930 yeah, depending though on the codexes and other lore, some companies could also number more than 200+ marines. This could be like you say, Blood Claws, or units from other companies who are sent to reinforce the active companies. I like to think though that the Space Wolves are/were far bigger than any other chapter in existence by a large margin. Reasons are many, but also hinted at during the ca 30 years we have had SW codexes. When it comes to more current lore, i am on the fence. I really like the new books, but they are also a "pr" instrument for GW to sell their new range of models. And the SW lore(like other chapters) have over the years been retconned, inpart to sell models.
@@Brissebrajan Well, I think the Black Templars might be the largest, as not even Helbrecht knows how many Battle Brothers they have.
@@alexbrown1930 ahhh yes, they also could have a large part neophytes or what the are called.
Said it before and I still believe Guilliman has a hidden agenda. His gestures to reconcile with the Space Wolves ticked nearly every box with regards to protocols etc. However, I do believe he recognizes Fenris and the Wolves are positioned not only to repel the greenskins but being on the cusp of the Eye of Terror, have an important strategic role as well as the tactical roles in their defense of the Imperium. That in and of itself justifies his reinforcement and infusion/replenishment of bodies to the Space Wolves. However, it still doesn't sit well that the whole Primaris endeavor was draped in such secrecy. it lends the air of deception and subterfuge (like that portrayed in the Star Wars franchise) and the possibility/potential for a hidden code or similar being activated at some future point in time when Guilliman's apparent motive to "control" the Astartes comes to fruition in a manner that forces the agenda, unexpectedly, upon those whom have defied him for so long. His gestures of reconciliation may have just been theater to appease the long standing misgivings by the Fenrisians. As I have stated before, the Primaris Wolves may have a cultural link to Fenris but do NOT have a true connection with the homeworld of their Primarh. They were not chosen by a Wolf Preist and did not go through "the Trials". Though it is in their blood, they are still not true Space Wolves IMHO. I would love to get Bjorn's read on the situation one day as well as him having a face-to-face with Guilliman. Time will tell
Imao “the trials” are dumb
A lot of the Primaris marines from the Wolves successor chapters have taken a pilgrimage to Fenris to undertake the Trials of Morkai, its in the 9th ed codex. I dont believe they did it all at the same time, but they have turned up sporadically to undergo the trials and prove themselves true space wolves. I agree with the rest of your post though.
@@AnikaJarlsdottr that's like getting your wings before going through flight school. They still have no true cultural connections to life on Fenris. Nice try but not buying it
@@thomasschmidt1836 I guess we just gonna have to agree to disagree then
What about those who have Crossed the Rubicon Primaris like Ragnar Blackmane? What about those who have been made Primaris as part of their implantation process instead of First Born? The Hounds of Morkai selected from Wolf Scout packs to cross the Rubicon and become the specialist, anti-Psyker Reivers?
maybe some of the marines remember the thunderwarriors and that's why they look at the primaris a little concerned?
Only custodes and dark angels should know...
My only question was that how Wolf Primaris got the Canis Helix installed.
okay so, i keep hearing how the astartes were "the emperor's work" BUUUUUT in the GW book, i think it was the Valdor one it is stated that the emperor actually delegated off many of his projects to ppl he thought were capable and in fact one of these ppl was a scientist named Astartes...hence why they are called Astartes. So the whole blaspheming the emperors work thing i dont think holds water.
Astarte also tried to destroy them because she believed they would turn traitor without their primarchs. The emperor was involved in all these projects at a high level but didn’t do the day to day excepting the custodians/primarch projects
@@carlstanford7607 thats kinda what i figured. He was kinda like a manager or something he would final say and or input but it was not 100% his doing except for of course the Custodes.
@@yourapeeinguy8263 You are correct.
so the events happened in the novel is before the Psychic Awakening, and we have yet to see Ragnar Blackmane ascend the Rubicon Primaris
Guillman is a political master he knew bowing would gain him points and get more wolf's on his side.
Grimnar doesn't initially turn Guilliman down because of a grudge, it contributes to it but that is not the actual reason he turns it down. He turns it down because he believes that everything that has come to pass and the current state of the Wolves suggests that the prophesied Wolftime (like... the name of the novel) is upon them and that is when Russ will return to them and they will fight a defiant last battle with their Primarch at their side... not some petty bullshit. Grimnar believes that if he accepts the reinforcement he will ruin the prophesy and they won't get their Primarch back.
That's a really important aspect of that story and to omit it for the sake of a headline is irresponsible and has a negative impact on how others view the Wolves.
Since I saw a couple posts about this in this thread, felt like saying this: while Primaris are physically superior to Firstborn, it's not like the difference between a guardsman and a FB. Haven't some FB in the lore (I think Seth) beaten Primaris? And SMs have regularly beaten stronger opponents in personal combat in the lore. Swarmlords, Demon Princes, Ork bosses. Sparring, sure, Primaris will win most. Fight to the death? Fighting against the best/most experienced FB, (Dante, Grimnar, Azrael, company/chapter champs)?
I dig basketball, so try this: Primaris=NBA, Firstborn=D1 college/overseas star, Guardsman=under-12 end of bench (Catachans can be high school players in this comp)
An FB beat the crap out of a primaris in the wolftime, he later showed the same primaris's pack superior squad tactics. The problem with SW primaris is that all their knowledge comes from cawl, it's 1s and 0s which isn't how the wolves fight. There is a great arc of that conflict within the primaris who's instinct tell him one thing but his integrated training tell him another.
Guiliman is a humble being, truly the most human.
"Reason prevailed, and the legions were broken." Are 2 mutually exclusive terms.
The underlying problem posed by Warhammer is that the warp exists. The warp gives rise to psykers. Human beings through their negative emotions created the Choas gods who live off these negative emotions and indeed thrive when they are worshipped.
The emperor thus needed to find a way to ensure humanity never found out about the Chaos gods and remove their devotion to worshipping....anything, be that the old faiths of old earth -Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc. This was done by decree and they could only believe in the illumination of the emperor's decree.
A rather empty bargin that helps zero human begin to answer the great questions in life.
The above would in the emperors wisdom or lack thereof make the Chaos gods weaker and then die off.
The one missing gap in this plan is that humans have to also stop having negative emotions. Emotions -negative or positive- are part of the makeup of humanity and one can not stop having them. One can only be mindful of them and became aware of the externalities and internal stimuli that cause negative emotional responses.
So in my view the emperor was doomed to frailer, has failed, and will continue to fail.
So a rather stupid solution underlying all of Warehammer 30 and 40k.
On the flip side there is no end for GW since the Emperor will be eternally fighting and thus the need for stories and thus profits.
Well, until readers know the never ending nature of their addiction.
Pretty sure the Chaos Gods existed well before Humanity, Humanity just exists in greater numbers than the Old Ones, the Necrons, the Orcs and the Eldar and provide way more food.
I believe the Tyrannids entering the 40k universe can be blamed on Humanity but the Chaos gods are well before our time.
I wonder if the conflict with the Imperial Hierarchy comes from the fact that Russ swore a personal oath of loyalty to the Emperor, and thus the Wolves are under no obligation to anyone else save their own conscience. An interesting political situation.
Well none of the others legions had the numbers to continue as ine exept ultramarines they were the ones that actualy lose theit numbers byvspliting and protecting more territories than ultramar and still half of his brothers are that stupid to fight that fact even when they couldnt even protect a mere solar sistem
Russ' sons have been ranging all across the imperium, answering any and all calls for aid for 1000s of years, they did so with a fraction of the ultra marines forces (the main chapter and its successors), they broke up Gaz's waagh and let it dissolve into infighting, they b^tchslapped angron back to the warp and then won a conflict against the INQUISITION, as well as fighting back Magnus and the thousand sons on more than one occassion, all while defending the Fenris system and as many other systems as they can manage at the same time. bought time they had some reinforcements tbh.
@@AnikaJarlsdottr they did not bitchslapp angron back to the warp that was the Gray Knights.
And thebwar with the inqusition was not won by the wolfs, it was "won" at an confferenc tabel.
@@alcatras201 the inquisition left with nothing and the wolves kept their independance, conference table or not, the wolves won.
There are no wolves on Fenris …
Nah bro I've been a space wolves collector since second edition. i expected nothing else, but for grimnar to refuse, from day 1 the rout has never taken orders and has always had issues with authority, it's why russ set the bar for chapter fortresses by asking big E for full legion self sufficiency, it's Russ's legion nobody tells Russ what he does with it, the most surprising thing was that any of the wolves were shocked Grimnar refused, there's only one person who can tell Russ and the wolves what to do and that's the Emperor
I missed the channel got out of bootcamp finally
Would I need to read the other 2 to understand the wolftime?
Do primaris wolves drink from that cup which either they are okay morally or become wulfen?
the Cup of Wulfen? most of the primaris Wolves from successors have travelled to fenris and taken the test of Morkai, which as far as I am aware includes drinking from the Cup.
the primaris wolves from the SW chapter itself will have drank as part of their recruitment and training process. the primaris wolves who were defrosted and sent to fenris I am sure will have taken the cup before being accepted as a true son (unless it was already infused into them as part of the initial process all those years ago).
hopefully my rambling helps, sorry :'P
I defo found the wolves to be a group of moaning, cry babies. They had got it into their heads that Russ was back and when it turned out not to be him, they throw their toys out the pram hahaha Even Russ had more respect for RG than the wolves did. I really don't see Russ letting them talk to RG that way if he found out. The wolves didn't even really follow the codex, so it's a poor excuse for their attitude.
RG didn't ask them for anything apart from to do what they are already doing and he will give them the means to get the task done.
I do think this book shows them in a bad light
I find the whole kneeling scene disgusting. Guilliman represents the imperium. When he bows the whole race of men bows. The wolves are a tool to be used by the Imperium as the Imperium sees fit.
The whole thing stinks of pride and how the wolves think themselves apart from everyone. If Russ didn't want this to happen, then maybe he shouldn't have ran off to the eye and stayed and led the Imperium.
How do you think they will rebuild the population of fenris to get new homegrown recruits?
easy, they will just send Lukas the trickster out for a walk ;)
To be honest, the fact that humanity exists on Fenris in any numbers, prior to Magnus’ attack even, beggars belief.
I think it had more to do with sketchy Space Wolf gene seed than anything else.
Well also guilliman has to respect anyone that actually hasn't been in a coma for 10,000 years, and been doing their part that whole time keeping the empire together. When it comes to experience I mean..
Ah, that helps fill in some questions I had... But one more for the heck of it: GW always states that a space Marine Chapter existis out of roughly a 1000 battle brothers divided in 10 companies of a 100 each. and they give out rosters with all of these in battlefield roles. Now I know that menials make for a lot of logistic and mechanical support but in my mind a chapter has closer to 2000 Marines then 1000. Hear me out:
A full primaris chapter with;
10 battle companies of 100 men + leadership 1 Captain, 2 Lieutenants, an acient, a chaplain, apothecary, techmarine and librarian at least (they do need need to be present)
so we are at 1080 marines,
then we need to add the Chapter master, his staff of lieutenants, chapter ancient, the high caplain, chief apothecary and a chief librarian and a Master of the forge.
1088, but they have to have aprentices too if we sat one aprentice for each librarian, apotecary etc... we are at 1132 marines.
But wait, every company has vehicles lets go with 40 Impulsors, 20 Repulsors (variants), 20 gladiator (variants), 20 Storm speeders (variants) all have a crew of 3 except for the impulsors who have a crew of 2 this is 260 operator marines wich totals up to 1392 marines.
A chapter also has its share of dreadnoughts and ivictors lets say 20 / 10 so an extra 30 marines (ok 20 are interned, but I still count them) up we go to 1422.
Another part of a chapter is its airwing to deliver the marines on the ground, as Thunderhawks can carry primaris I take these as the primary way to deliver marines to the surface.
A company probably has 4 thunderhawks for troops / bikes / dreadnoughts and 2 for vehicles. These have a crew of 4 marines and gun servitors (2 pilots, master gunner and a navigator/coms oficer) so ad another 240 marines to the chapter and we end on a total of 1662 marines.
I didn't even acount for bigger vehicles like the astreus or simply more vehicles. I also think that every strike cruiser and battle barge would have its own space Marine captain and guard compliment to secure it while the rest are deployed. And other interceptors/craft like the regular marine xyphon have not been counted to the tally as they don't exist yet in the lore.
So if you add these in a chapter is closer to the 2000 mark, with a 1000 dedicated battle brothers. - this is not to say that the other marines can't fill in this role ofc :p
Too many words I could not read
Make it short for us Space Wolves?
But, as the Astartes are meant to serve humanity and the empire as a whole; should we not interpret a refusal to serve the imperium to be anti-loyalist?
He is salty that Leman is still AWOL
If the Lion returns and turns on Guilliman, the Lion's are 100% joining the DA's side.
Eh?
The lions?
The _Lions?_
What is this, a zoo? (I guess we already had two types of wolves, a phoenix, a Hydra and a Raven... maybe we do, after all 🤔)
they are the howls in the night, the gleaming eyes that stalk the edge of the firelight and the falling axe which severes the threads of traitors. the Wolves answer to the Emperor, no one else.
Fenrys Hjolda, for Russ and the All Father.
The cheese wolves stand alone. And truly are no better than any of the other chapters of Marines
Taking the fight to demon prince primarchs (Angron, Magnus), bucking the inquisition successfully, and having the only Primarch to not only harm Horus but to defeat his ascended form in combat among many other achievements lends them quite a bit of prestige that any other chapters would be hard pressed to emulate. Im about the Scars myself but I raise my cup to the honorable and ferocious sons of Russ, SKOL
@@chucklytell They didn't do shit to Angron. 103 grey knight took the lord of the red sands and sent him back to the warp. The wolves came after the battle was won. Also, Fenris would have been a burning wreck had Kysanros wanted to. He just didn't want to shatter the planet of a first founding chapter. That's why he tried to talk with Bjorn, but The Old Wolf got a deus ex machina and arrived on time.
@@TheLostPrimarch2nd came after the battle was won? the Wolves were boots on the ground all the way through the 1st war for armageddon, the grey knights turned up where and when Grimnar told them to.
@@AnikaJarlsdottr Both things are true. Grimnar fought the war of Armageddon, and when he saw he wasn't going to win, and couldn't win against a Daemon Primarch, he sent for the Sons of Titan. But the last battle of the war, the battle against the Blessed Higher Choirs of Khorne and Angron and his bodyguards, it was the 103 Grey Knights who won that battle, losing 90 of their ranks on the process. Grimnar fought the war. Captain Taremar Aurelia the Golden of the 666th, and his brother, won it.
Wolf Lord Rhos Grimnar video only having 21k views after a year should really tell you everything you need to know about the current day Space Wolves, they have simply turned into a meme. The role they had has long since been taken by the far more interesting Inquisition. From time to time they get a book but its content never has any significances on the main plot and is always full of things that try to give the space furries some shine but make very little sense, such as Guilliman just ignoring the murder of a Lord Inquisitor or deciding to bow to a chapter master that clearly has far more pride than fitting for his chapters station. The general timeline often feels more cohesive if you simply ignore any Space Wolf centric books its a real shame. They need a reason to exist and to have an aim or goal, for a long time they have just been crap Black Templars.
Listen man i will not tolerate anyone disrespecting The Avenging Son, Roboutte Guilliman! I am 2 years new to the Warhammer world but the very first video i ever saw was The Return of Guilliman. Dude was sleep for 10,000 years, wakes up in the middle of an attack, kicked EVERY ASS he saw and then asked questions!! I'm an Ultramarine to the end!!! 😡
The best part about Gav "The First Matt Ward" Thorpe writing Wolves now is that he is hopefully done with The First. One can truly hope. *fingers crossed*
I feel for you Wolf Fans. Strap a helmet on. It's about to get Thorpie.
*Strapping* *double strapping* *triple strapping* *buttchicks tight*
Voldus: You seem troubled, my lord Guilliman.
Guilliman: Troubled falls short, Supreme Grand Masters. The Wolves are being a problem.
Azrael: Told you they would be.
Voldus: Yeah, yeah, I know you did. Wish we has tried a little bit harder during the Months of Shame. A pity we were so spent.
Azrael: You vanquished Angron, I think you have more than a justification there.
Voldus: Indeed. Remember Pandorax?
Azrael: Oh, that I do. It was quite the campaign.
Voldus: You know..... I jus had a crazy idea.....
Azrael: You fight demos every day of the week 24/7, Aldrik. Every one of your ideas is crazy.
Voldus: How about we do a Second Pandorax......
Azrael: Aja?
Voldus: On Fenris.......?
Azrael: Have you gone nuts already?
Voldus: No, no, think about it. Dark Angels and Grey Knights, the most knightly chapters joined together to show the wolves their place as the leashed dogs they are.
Azrael: To kick the mutts down a few notches. We would be outnumbered 5 to 1, you barely have any brothers to spend.
Voldus: True, and you are also lacking warriors for such......
Guilliman: Crusade approved.
Voldus and Azrael: My lord?!
Guilliman: I'm tired of people being stupid just becouse the feel like being the noble idiot is the moral right thing to do, and I'm tired of people making my considerably imposible job a lot harder. Go, kick the Old Wolf's teeth in, ruffle their fur and leave a few bruises, then come back to the front lines. I'll give you primaris for it, Azrael. Also....
Voldus: You had us at kicking Grimnar's teeth in, sire.
Azrael: He'll yeah you did. You bring the hammer?
Voldus: And you bring Azmodai. This is going to be veeeery entertaining.
(They both leave)
Guilliman: Should I worry?
Saint Celestine: Worry, why my prince?
Bobby G: I have just sent them to fight the Rout, the Wolfs of Fenris.
Cute Winged Waifu: Yes, you did.
Blue King: So? Will the be fine?
Celestine: Oh, do not worry. The Wolf might be mighty, but against the First and the 666th, they are going to get a fistful of their own medicine.
Guilliman: So...... Prospero 2.0?
Celesine: Why, of course not my lord. Your lord father's knights are not ones to leave a job unfinished.
Roboute: Leman is going to be pissy after this........ But fuck it, he can choke on a furball. Someone call Dante, I need to have a chat with my suicidal nephew.
Edit: mistakes in orthography.
Not going to lie, a very entertaining read.
Suicidal nephew 🥰
Aldrik, psh, Grey Knights are meant for Demon Hunting not going against other Legions. Waste of manpower and resources as well as going against purpose. And the Dark Angels, Azrael. Throw something about the Fallen in the next system over and they'll all come running. One's too secretive and obsessives about their own traitorous kin because if anyone else found out then they'd be embarrassed and wound their pride, I highly doubt a faction so focused on their image would be as loyal compared to the Wolves. The other, as I said, is meant for one thing and one thing only: to deal with Chaos and the Warp, to vanquish demons, and to stem their corruption. Why would you throw them at another legion unless you were some stupid ass Inquisitor on his high horse, here's a saying for the Grey Knights, "Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes."
Vulkan: I know the Wolves are a pain in the derrière but they’re our pain in the derrière. We’re not attacking fellow Imperial forces just because they’re obnoxious.
Grimnar is to grizzled, to experienced and to wise to not be suspicious.
You dont become the man Logan is by being the fool. Guilliman knows this to.
And its not a bad thought of Guilliman that Russ could return and Russ would not forgive him a second time ...
While it rectified the situation I believe Guilliman both coming to Ferris and waiting for an invitation to enter the system should’ve been enough. NO Primarch should ever kneel to anyone save the Emperor of Mankind.
10 thousand years, and they still can't bother to read a book.
I love my fellow battle brothers of the Rout but Allfather’s fingernails can they be absolute idiots sometimes. I mean these Primaris lads may not have passed the Test of Morkai, and the rest of the Imperium has screwed us over more than once, but we were absolutely desperate for new pups.
-Jarl Hydyr Leifclaw of the 10th Great Company. (OC)
Following the background and themes of 40K, Primaris simply shouldn't be accepted and is such heresy that they'd be rejected violently by significant proportions of the Imperium...
Except GW wants to copyright their Marines further and sell all the Marine players new armies so the whole background just isn't respected.
So Space Wolves accepted the Primaris and GW clap themselves on the back.
Grimnar is Always right. when in doubt, back his play
This is why I do not like the Space Wolves, why expect a Primarch that is doing everything to save the Imperium to prostrate himself to satiate the great wolf's pride. In Guilliman kneeling, he showed his loyalty, in the wolves defiance, they proved their inferiority.
Ducking Rowboat Girlyman, classic beancounter
you really need to lower your noise gate
I love the wolfs, but its been 10k years, let it go man
I think wolves are angry because they don't get blood claws/grey hunter/long fangs primaris packs, what a nonsense!
How much better are the Primaris compared to the space marines?
Faster, stronger, smarter and much more durable.
They also have better power armour and more advanced tech. Though I'm guessing that will be pushed out to all chapters.
Basically Space marines on steroids.
@@MrBounce66 Faster Stronger and Tougher yes, not necessarilly smarter though. the firstborn Space Wolves in particular found that their primaris brothers were stronger and faster, but when they came face to face with a demon prince, the primaris were left in disarray and the firstborn had to finish the kill.
@@MrBounce66 smarter?
Logan needs to learn some damm respect and humility
Wolves distrust Guilliman, because he's in his armour all the time and they are unable to sniff his butt.
Grimnar is literally a boomer.
I disagree with you on that part. Boomers are Very, you must follow the rules, types as a rule. The wolves are not.
Guilliman literally broke the Legions and nearly started a second civil war. Guess they all have flaws.
@@smithingbear7522 no he didnt start a civil war lol. He did the right thing. People that complain about it are 1 step away from being heretics
It would most likely because he was going a died to a ork or someone else.
Coming from one wolf Lord to another some other wolf Lords wouldn't recognize me as such (PlayStation dispute)I'm not sure I can trust Grimnar anymore with that supposedly former deamon axe of his just one of those things it doesn't matter how many wolf Priests iron priests iron priests have blessed that axe deamons are sneaky bastards also if Leaman Russ were around in the material he be both be both thankfull and skeptical of his brother giving his nature how the emperor created him and yes I know my comment is really late to the party but I feel so just how Russ would be
I wrote this under the sevre the severe intoxication of fenrisian mjoad
Glad to see am not the only one concerned about that axe . Chaos corruption can be subtle and one can never be too careful hence the extremely stringent measures taken when dealing with chaos creatures and relics. And given the wolves hot headedness and violent tendencies, khorne probably has an eye for them and if a high ranking member like grimnar was to be corrupted then he will drag many astartes down with him, he needs to get rid of that axe asap .
There is a thin line between being spunky and insubordination.
I for one think GW went kinda weird with storyline of Guilliboy kneeling before chapter masters. Hes a living primarch, a son of the Emperor and Lord Commander'n'shit appointed by said God-Emperor. I think every chapter master, in the absence of their respective Primarchs, should stfu and kneel and obey. Anything else they basicaly disobeying the Emperor and should be terminated. Its like the Pope disobeying Jesus. How about that ?!
jesus is just as fictional as the 40k universe.
@@AnikaJarlsdottr We get it. You are an atheist.
@@papagyekelartey1969 oh, you noticed? I thought I was being too subtle :P
@@AnikaJarlsdottr snow flake