It's literally been almost 2 years since the Lion's return and we still dont have a reunion plot going anywhere. I swear we're all going to die before we see anything resolve.
Well written stories take time and planning to pull off. You have to take into consideration the new lore has to also tie in with the massive amounts of old lore. It’s not easy. Also Games Workshop will have the review the authors ideas.
Roboute' Guilliman and Lion el Johnson were two of the three Primarchs involved in Imperium Secundus. That combined with the compromises Guilliman has been forced to make after his return makes me think he will be more understanding than most regarding the secrecy of the Dark Angels.
That 'dirty little secret' is about to come up very soon in the Dawn of Fire series. One of Gulliman's scribes who was "caught" recording human history in his spare time got drafted to basically be a historical Remberancer, went into the locked Library on Ultramar and with a help of a demon, found the records about what just happened during those years. Tldr: the demon plans to cause a gigantic disruption of "a decay of hope" if you will in his liberation forces. *Edit** did i mention this was a greater demon of NURGLE? You'd think this would be a bird-boy plan but no, he wants to cause brain-rot with fake news lol.
@robertoleary5470 Process of elimination. Khorne, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch weren't properly inclined and/or poised at the time, to wage war on Ultramar/undermine Guilliman. The World Eaters are too blunt. The Emperor's Children are too undisciplined. The Thousand Sons are too hyperfocused on their bloodfeud with the Vlka Fenryka. Even Chaos Undivided was right out as the Iron Warriors and Word Berers as well as their Primarchs were not active enough in the setting. This just leaves Nurgle as the Death Guard is largely unified despite the complicated relationship between Mortarion and Typhus. It's also fitting considering the goals of all things Indomitus. Roboute' Guilliman is attempting to reverse 10,000 years of stagnation and decay. Nurgle is the most directly interested in printing him from doing so. After all, bloodshed, excess, and manipulation were inevitable so that suffices for Khorne, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch until further notice.
It will be exactly the same as when Guilliman was setting up Secundus and was desperate for at least one other brother to turn up.... "Really? It just HAD to be the Lion, didn't it..."
Gulliman already hates them but realizes he needs them. The lion is much more..... not murdery..... is the only word I can think of. I think the lion will be ok just being a warrior and not a politician.
The Inquisition are already eyes up with the news of the return of the Lion. Many in the highest parts of the order know about what took place and how the Lion went missing. They are skeptical about what side he's on.
@ What? Nah lol, That's not even how the inquisition works. That's the high lords you're thinking about. Inquisition deals with suppressing facts and keeping tabs on everyone's dirty secrets.
@ Ahh? no. Gulliman doesn't hate the Inquisition. He actually has several high ranking Inquisitors working with him directly and all attached to several battle groups. You're either thinking of the high lords or the church.
Keep in mind Guilliman's not near "renouncing his Father" after the Dark Imperium books. He's full of doubts now whether Big E is a God or is becoming one, but also he was just saved, in total, by his father when fighting Mortarion. That has obviously shaken all the foundations but also added a measure of trust.
I've always felt that the chapters of 1,000 were needed for what was essentially a leaderless/primarkless empire (though I would have made them at least 10,000 strong). I think that without a strong central command structure, large but inflexible legions would have found it much harder to hold the imperium together.
I did like the idea of maybe letting chapters increase their numbers to a point if they made it a certain amount of time without issues but then that could breed problems too.
@@AdeptKing Given the scale of the threats emerging. Increasing the size of a chapter from 1,000 to 2,000 or 3,000 seems reasonable. Seems like whenever GW wants to showcase the prowess of a new villain they get them to kill an entire Astartes chapter or an Avatar of Khaine.
@@ShadowPhoenixMaximus Maybe theyll do some reservist system for chapters where battle brother takes on the meaning of an astartes actually on campaign while they rotate the scouts into proper fighting capacity.
Yeah, I kinda hate this retcon of Guilliman second-guessing the chapter system - the Legions were tools of conquest wielded by demigods - great for when the Imperium was a conquering juggernaut, totally unsuited to the defensive needs of the post-Heresy Imperium. I could see an argument for needing some kind of larger command structure, rather than just leaving every chapter to be effectively independent and answerable only to the High Lords - a chapter lord who could give assignments to, say, ten chapters, to help coordinate their response - but the Legions of old were simply no longer needed.
@@AdeptKing While I would like the larger chapters, I don't think any Primark or even all loyal Primarks together could change that now. I'm not even sure it would be enough if big E got up to see the High lords and order that the chapter sizes should be increased.
I really hope we get a reverse from how they met in the heresy. I hope Gman finds out about the Lion and doesn’t believe it and has forces waiting in orbit to destroy the “so called” Lion. And all the Lion can do is watch as the brother he believed to be foolish and a traitor comes at him the same way he approached Gman on Macrage. It’s just now Gman is the jaded one.
In, “Son of the Forest,” we -know- Dante has told the Lion about Guilliman’s revival, the rescue of his Chapter, and the Primaris. I daresay he will also tell the Lion about both his and Guilliman’s new titles. And it will make Lion angry. And, as others have said, I foresee Dante playing referee between these two, much like Sanguinius did. Helping them get over themselves and learning to compromise. They’re going to have to have a nice, long talk and clear the air before they move forward.
@ Do I agree with the Lion for withholding that information about Kurze? Definitely not. Do I think he should have mentioned it and asked for Guilliman’s help? Yes. But I am also thankful Guillimom was ok in the end.
I honestly think, Dante is the key to keeping them from fighting amongst each other like they did during imperium secundus, Both had similar reactions to seeing Dante and both have extreme respect for him for the same reasons. Like sanguinius who always split them up and spoke reason to vanquish their ire for one another. Dante can be that voice, especially since he's been serving in the 40k version of the imperium far, FAR, longer than either primarch
they will be the other way around of imperium secundus when they meet, Roboute being suspicious of the Lion intensions and his new found powers while the Lion being forthcoming, open and warm to his brother
I would like to see Fulgrim trying to fight RG and finding The Lion waiting for him. Lion: Dear Brother, you told it was boring to fight RB. I promise you much more excitement. Fulgrim: Maybe this is too much excitement even for me.
Gulliman: Emperor above, the galaxy is a mess. I would give ANYTHING if any ONE of my brothers were here to help me. Lion: I'm back brother!! Guilliman: ...when I said 'anyone'....
5 years our time later: Guilliman: Emperor above, by anyone, I meant Rogal Dorn. Though Vulkan or Corvus would be great too. Leman: That's fighting words brother.
It is Emperium Secundus all over again... Guilliman patiently waiting for another brother to drop in and help him out... and Johnson turns up. "The Lion... Really? It just HAD to be the Lion..."
The more I listened to this vid the more I think the entire book should be written about this conversation. There's easily enough material when I think about it... It'd be so intense.
I hope GW do a animation of them meeting, With a black and white intro, in a form of drawing style, like some parts of the Hellreach fan animation, where we see back to the Horus Heresy and see the Dark Angels decent on Macragg and G-man and Lion embracing back in the day, then a cut, and were back to 40k color animation, and the into was Gulliman remembering back in time, and then now he sees the Dark Angels decent again.
Any other stance of the Lion except offering his partnership to Guilliman would be just bad writing. Like for example being still mad 10.000 years later the legions were broken up... makes no sense, the Imperium is still standing with zero Primarchs to guide it until very recently, thanks to Guilliman's measures.
Yea, but it wasn’t really 10k years for, very specifically, both of them. One was in stasis for most of it, and the other just woke up from his extremely long nap. So it doesn’t Feel like that long for either of them. Just
I think they will be fine, the Lion has mentally matured alot, he's more sentimental now. He won't have thoughts of petty differences when looking at the state of the Galaxy, especially when he sees and talks with Big E. What a shocker that will be.
6:24 I'm 100% sure Robute would tell the lion in a heartbeat "you wanna do this job? Be my guest. It's annoying as f*ck". Dude is extremely stressed and would welcome someone else to take the weight off of his shoulders.
I feel like The Lion will come at this with an overall calm and collected manner. Information is key and once he is updated on the current state of the galaxy he will understand The 2 primarchs will have to put away their petty squabbles.
Me and my son sat and talked about this the other day and came up with a plot for there reunion "Guilliman faces off against the newly returned fulgrim as before fulgrim wins but cant help but start ridiculing him as fulgrim gos to finish the job the lione out his forests relm appears with the emperors shield blocking the strike
Half of Jagatai's sons wanted to follow Horus and he killed those who would not bend the knee and the rest had to do a sort of repenture... And he never hid it... So maybe the lion will follow suit
With how the Unforgiven work in 40K I'm guessing the Lion wouldn't care to much of his Legion being made a Chapter. I'm also guessing with how he is with Dante & how he works in the Lion's Protectorate he won't care about the Lord Commander position. In fact with how things are in the Galaxy he will be more likely ask not be given greater power, just stronger power in his section of space.
Would be a bit of a cop out for him to simply dismiss the break up of his Legion. I mean he's already made a dramatic turn of character with the Fallen. Seems like he's lost of a fair chunk of the lore that made him unique and is instead being replaced with something new. Reminds me of Game of Thrones Season 8 with "subverting expectations".
@@ShadowPhoenixMaximus He got smacked in the face with how a lot of things went down poorly The dark Angels legion never really got broken up thanks to the nature of the grand masters so he might not be mad about that bit.
This is how I imagine it: Their fleets meet by accident in the void of space. A space battle almost breaks out but Guilliman and El'Johnson hold their forces back. The Lion asks permission to come aboard because Guilliman has the legal authority. We go back and forth from both their POV. Guilliman is wondering if the Lion can be trusted due to his disappearance. The Lion is unsure how much he should tell. The Lion boards Guilliman's flagship. When Guilliman sees the Lion, all of sudden all the stress from the last few centuries and the utter loneliness dissipates. Guilliman begins to cry almost uncontrollably. The Lion runs to Guilliman, embraces him and kisses his forehead saying, "you're not alone anymore." Just a big bromance scene. The brothers go and talk. The Lion shows Guilliman the alter-Caliban and reveals most of what has happened and what he has learned but not everything. Guilliman sees the Fisher King and gives a go at trying to ask the right question.
When they do finally meet up again... There's a scene I really love in the WWII alternate history novel All the King's Men. A husband and wife got separated during the German invasion of Britain. Each believing the other was dead, they both joined the resistance and ended up leading units behind enemy lines. When they finally meet again, it's in the middle of an emergency, with German forces closing in and both needed to lead their units to escape, and they're both - despite the shock and emotion of seeing each other - completely professional and focused on the mission. I want to see that when the two brothers meet up again. Guilliman is on a planet, coordinating the defence against a massive tyranid horde. An infiltration force has snuck up and is attacking Guilliman's command centre. Guilliman knows that if he stops coordinating the defence to fight off the swarm at his back, the lines will break and the planet will be lost. Of course if he _doesn't,_ he'll be dead anyway and it becomes academic. A window shatters and half a dozen gaunts pile in. Guilliman's guard fights them off but it's only the first, any second now they'll be overrun, and _why_ in _Dad's name_ does it stink of wet leaves in here?? Which of course is when Lion el'Jonson steps out of the mist and neatly bisects a squad of tyranid warrriors. "Watch your back, you fool!" the Lion roars, as Dark Angels flood out of the forest realm to engage the encroaching swarm. "I don't need to," Guilliman replies, "You're here now!" And, confident of victory for the first time in ten thousand years, Guilliman grins and goes back to work.
Half of the exposition will be in each of their inner monologues trying to outwit eachother while pushing down the feelings of nostalgia and urge to bear all.
Lion: "I hear slanders about you and an Aeldari Broad and how she kissed you in the booboo and awakened your sword" RG: "She never kissed me and ..." Lion: But you would like she did?" RG:" IT IS NOT CANON!!!!!" Adeptus Custodes guarding RG: "I think I heard that already somewhere"
The glacial pace that GW maintains when revealing secrets that they created decades ago is infuriating enough. I'll take whatever they give us, but I have to be honest, I am not in the mood for the only loyal Primarchs in the setting having some lame misunderstanding of their actions. This isn't The Young and The Restless. If they suddenly start yelling at each other and one storms off and then agents of Chaos appear to take advantage of the confusion, I'm going to lose it. I need forward momentum, not one step forward, two steps back.
Roboute seeing the Lions Protectorate. "Empire building? For a man of your talents brother?" Lionel trying to mellow out and save lives from chaos in Nihilus: "Its a peace making life."
All I imagine is: Girlyman reach's out to shake LE's hand just to get punched saying "What have you been doing!? The empires a mess!!". Girlyman backhands LE saying "Next time choose a better time to take a walk!!"
I could easily see LEJ accusing Guilliman of being careless and irresponsible for going after Fulgrim by himself, and thus damning the Imeprium to degradation and stagnation. But I also think he wouldn't press the point too hard, recalling his own vengeance spree that led him to his own 10,000 year incapacitation.
I would like to see something along the lines of Gman hearing about Fulgrims return. He goes to combat him and gain redemption for his previous loss. He finds Yvraine and the Eldar fighting him already, but losing. He jumps in and does great at first but Fulgrim gains the upper hand and is about to repeat history and take out Gman, but the shadows then darken, and a voice in the darkness says "I stand with you brother". Then out of nowhere in the shadows, the Lion attacks Fulgrim, shielding Gman. The Lion beats fulgrim and now the reunion takes place.
So much of this reminds of Imperium secondus, Dante is appointed much like Sanguineous,a ruinstorm in the form of the rift , then the lion possibly being appointed as the enforcer of the Imperium as before . The only differences is the current setting . I'm probably wrong , but if the Imperium secondus story gave us anything is a window to the future .
I hope that their reunion is of blood brother who haven't seen each other in a while and miss them. But one things for sure, both of them are going to have a primarch-level bitching about the Ecclesiarchy with each other.
I think the Lion may make a jab about it, but gets why the Avenging Bean Counter has taken the role he has. Freeing up the Lion to Hunt Beasts and Lead the front.
I think when the lion forest walks into Robute room and is just chill relax I know all about the ecclesiachry that eldar chick it’s all good little bro where you need me is.going to be a bigger head fk than when Robute had that little sit down with dad lol
Great vid Rho...as always. Imagine being the PERFECT example of why the legions needed to be broken...then fussing about the legions being broken apart. For real, your number two fell to heresy, took your home-world, fired on your fleet, caused an epic war and wounded you causing a coma for 10,000 years...then you have the audacity to question why YOU, Lionel, do not deserve to lead 100,000 men. I am not a blueberry fan...but the Lion is a walking emo tantrum. As a Scars fan, my dude didn't do a whole lot better, but in this single issue, Girly-man was correct.
They should bring back Corax next, and then have all three primarchs meet. This way Robute and the Lion would have to come to terms with a upgraded warp primarch.
Honestly, the state of the Imperium is equally their fault. Both went out of their way to recklessly pursue vengeance. Both ended up biting off more than they could chew and ended up taking an extended nap.
Personally I also want to see them meet Bjorn for that talk since he has been around this whole time and they probably at least know of him given he was in Russ's Wolf guard. A discussion between the Lion and Guilliman on the Codex Astartes will be really interesting especially given apparently Gillian is at least partly doubting his decision to split the legions. Granted at the time I think the splitting of the legions was the right call and done for the right reasons, the method of doing so was flawed and pointed out to Guilliman. There are threats that take more than one thousand space marines and the adherence to that number (roughly as I am pretty sure if a chapter went a little above the imperium would be fine with it, so I doubt having an extra dozen or so brothers or even a little more than that would cause a problem) has caused problems. Huron Blackheart and his Red Corsairs might not be a problem if not for that size restriction. Honestly my big problem with the splitting of the legions is the generification of combat doctrine/units. While back in the day the core of the legions were made up of the same style troops, they did all have their own specialist troops and the codex seems to have mostly gotten rid of those and I want them back (as a raven guard fan give me back my Mor Deythan for example).
With all the hype surrounding the Primarchs…oozing charisma and threat in equal measure yada yada, they sure act like children when in the same room talking with one another. I’d just for once like to see these two RG and Lion actually have a real sit-down and meaningful conversation. Stasis or “sleeping” 10k yrs is a freaking long time-and even with super human speed reading will take more than a few hours to catch up. Think about it,,,these 2 Primarchs could map out the road to Imperial “recovery”. It will be interesting to see what the Emperor will say-if anything-to the Lion when the Lion demands an audience with “Dad”.
Very curious if the Lion will go see the Emperor. Or try to. I'd imagine he'd absolutely insist on it. Or both him and Guilliman seeing him at the same time.
Things that probably happen when they reunite: Guilliman and Lion reunite with Dante to make a triunvirate to rule the Imperium. Giving the Lion again the title of protector of the Imperium; Dante keeping his current title... This will make resurface the loose end of "Godblight" book, when Fabian Guelphrain discover the whole Imperium Secundus stuff... At least thats what I think could possibly happen. 😂
I like to think that the Lion and Gman will serve different purposes for the emperor, opposite from their old roles and which suits the new gifts they were given. Gman will be the arm of retribution with the sword of the emperor. And given the lions stance on his legion in the books I think it would be cool to see him as the primarch of redemption. And imagine renegade or traitor legion loyalists seeing the lion for his own wandering sons and have them start rallying to his banner and be accepted. Imagine how pissed off the chaos gods would be if the lion started converting marines back to the imperial side. Add that the ecclesiarchy will love the lion who could serve as proof of the emperors divinity. In the grand scheme I think a scene where Fulgrim has Gman cornered and suddenly out of no where the Lion shows up from a random forest that wasn’t there a second ago leading dark angels, blood angels and other marines with church music suddenly blasting everywhere as the sisters follow them out and how confusing for everyone that would be. Bonus points if they somehow steal the Fulgrim clone from Trazhan and he is there leading loyalist emperors children to really spit in the eye of daemon Fulgrim as he is about to pull of his greatest triumph. As for how the Lion could recover clone Fulgrim well he can forest walk anywhere he needs to and if he ever thought about how he wished there was a chance to redeem Fulgrim there is a chance the forest could actually lead him right to the clone Fulgrim. The books make it clear that the clone actually seems to contain part of Fulgrims true soul and the forest could bring that Fulgrim into contact with the part of the emperor inside it. If the representation of the Emperor inside the caliban forest showed the Lion that he accepted the clone I think the Lion would too
I think The Lion will be honest with Roboute. While also asking him to give him some allowances to do what he must for the soul of the First. And I'm pretty sure Rob will let him.
After what Guilliman allows Cawl to do, if the Lion told Guilliman everything about the First RG would be: "Ok. Don't worry. Shit happens. Don't do it again".
What about talking about the traitor brothers, has Guillaman spoke to them, what are they like now. And what about a reunion with all the traitor brothers, are we going to see all four in one room when Fulgrim returns.
Guilliman and El'Johnson shouldn't meet yet. They should run into a traitor primarch first, like Fulgrim or Perturabo, for a battle of words that shakes lose a few secrets. That way when they do meet there is something deeper than a mere clash of personalities at play.
OFC he wont bend any knee. Nor will Guilliman ask him to. If needs be, he will even ask The lion if he wants that regent title (Though both of them know he is a warrior, not a ruler)
Both Primarchs Legions are Prime Numbers. I and XIII As is Corax (XIX) Imperial Fists (VII) and/or White Scars (V) are my predictions for their Primarchs to return next It will start with these Primarchs
I disagree completely about how things will go. Why on earth would Lion be angry and Guilliman? I mean he would very much prefer him over anybody else. It was different before, as there were options during heresy, but now he was only option. So I think Lion would take it very well.
I know i am gonna get called lore newbie over this question, but i have got to ask. Why the hell haven't they met already!? This is dumb even from a monetary business standpoint. We have had plenty of time to anticipate and build hype. GW is gonna lose that hype if they keep dragging their feet. I guess they are too busy with femstodes to bother with one of the greatest moments that could ever happen in the lore.
Also it probobly wont happen but the smartest thing guilliman could do when meeting the lion is hand the emperors sword to him and go. Here, have fun...
The chapters are slowly going to fall under their primarch. Not all of them but some of the chapters will coalesce under thier primarch. Still with thier chapter falling into the legion leadership.
It's literally been almost 2 years since the Lion's return and we still dont have a reunion plot going anywhere. I swear we're all going to die before we see anything resolve.
If we get nothing this year, I forsee Abaddon finding a slew of fresh recruits.
Probably will get a new primarch returning before they meet
there was a time when there was no lore advancement in 40k at all. Now we have TWO primarchs back.
Well written stories take time and planning to pull off. You have to take into consideration the new lore has to also tie in with the massive amounts of old lore. It’s not easy. Also Games Workshop will have the review the authors ideas.
This is 40K. Plot progression is slow for people forget. This is also a setting.
Top issue is how long they hold that hug when they reunite, can't let their sons know they were THAT lonely.
The drink and vent sesh is gonna be insane. All nearby space wolf and their succesors chapters Mjold supply is gonna be drained.
"You needed that too much, my Brother"
Roboute' Guilliman and Lion el Johnson were two of the three Primarchs involved in Imperium Secundus.
That combined with the compromises Guilliman has been forced to make after his return makes me think he will be more understanding than most regarding the secrecy of the Dark Angels.
That 'dirty little secret' is about to come up very soon in the Dawn of Fire series. One of Gulliman's scribes who was "caught" recording human history in his spare time got drafted to basically be a historical Remberancer, went into the locked Library on Ultramar and with a help of a demon, found the records about what just happened during those years. Tldr: the demon plans to cause a gigantic disruption of "a decay of hope" if you will in his liberation forces. *Edit** did i mention this was a greater demon of NURGLE? You'd think this would be a bird-boy plan but no, he wants to cause brain-rot with fake news lol.
@TKUltra971 Things are going to get VERY interesting.
@@TKUltra971That will be very interesting
Yeah it was surprising that it was Nurgule.
@robertoleary5470 Process of elimination.
Khorne, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch weren't properly inclined and/or poised at the time, to wage war on Ultramar/undermine Guilliman.
The World Eaters are too blunt.
The Emperor's Children are too undisciplined.
The Thousand Sons are too hyperfocused on their bloodfeud with the Vlka Fenryka.
Even Chaos Undivided was right out as the Iron Warriors and Word Berers as well as their Primarchs were not active enough in the setting.
This just leaves Nurgle as the Death Guard is largely unified despite the complicated relationship between Mortarion and Typhus.
It's also fitting considering the goals of all things Indomitus.
Roboute' Guilliman is attempting to reverse 10,000 years of stagnation and decay.
Nurgle is the most directly interested in printing him from doing so.
After all, bloodshed, excess, and manipulation were inevitable so that suffices for Khorne, Slaanesh, and Tzeentch until further notice.
I'd like to see Gulliman hearing for the first time of The Lions return
“Theoretical, my brother feels much the same as I. Alone.”
“Practical, we bro hug up and crack open some amasec”
It will be exactly the same as when Guilliman was setting up Secundus and was desperate for at least one other brother to turn up.... "Really? It just HAD to be the Lion, didn't it..."
How both Roboute and the Lion will view the Ecclesiarchy, High Lords, and Inquisition I think will be very interesting and extremely important.
Gulliman already hates them but realizes he needs them. The lion is much more..... not murdery..... is the only word I can think of. I think the lion will be ok just being a warrior and not a politician.
The Inquisition are already eyes up with the news of the return of the Lion. Many in the highest parts of the order know about what took place and how the Lion went missing. They are skeptical about what side he's on.
@TKUltra971 no they're scared of losing more of their power and influence.
@ What? Nah lol, That's not even how the inquisition works. That's the high lords you're thinking about. Inquisition deals with suppressing facts and keeping tabs on everyone's dirty secrets.
@ Ahh? no. Gulliman doesn't hate the Inquisition. He actually has several high ranking Inquisitors working with him directly and all attached to several battle groups. You're either thinking of the high lords or the church.
One has the Emperor's sword, the other the shield, the symbolism is crazy.... I can't wait for this meeting
What's really interesting is that Guilliman got the sword despite Lion being a far better choice to wield it.
GW need to shift gear and give us this in the lore for god sake how long has son of the forest been out now?
Approaching 2 years. It's absurd.
In contrast to Gulliman's arc and even the pace of updates for the Daemon Primarchs it beggars belief.
it's been 10k years stop being impatient .
The pacing over the last 2 years has been horrible.
*_Me remembering the Yannarii and the Leagues of Votaan._*
“What’s this I hear about an elf girlfriend?”
Keep in mind Guilliman's not near "renouncing his Father" after the Dark Imperium books. He's full of doubts now whether Big E is a God or is becoming one, but also he was just saved, in total, by his father when fighting Mortarion. That has obviously shaken all the foundations but also added a measure of trust.
I've always felt that the chapters of 1,000 were needed for what was essentially a leaderless/primarkless empire (though I would have made them at least 10,000 strong). I think that without a strong central command structure, large but inflexible legions would have found it much harder to hold the imperium together.
I did like the idea of maybe letting chapters increase their numbers to a point if they made it a certain amount of time without issues but then that could breed problems too.
@@AdeptKing Given the scale of the threats emerging. Increasing the size of a chapter from 1,000 to 2,000 or 3,000 seems reasonable.
Seems like whenever GW wants to showcase the prowess of a new villain they get them to kill an entire Astartes chapter or an Avatar of Khaine.
@@ShadowPhoenixMaximus Maybe theyll do some reservist system for chapters where battle brother takes on the meaning of an astartes actually on campaign while they rotate the scouts into proper fighting capacity.
Yeah, I kinda hate this retcon of Guilliman second-guessing the chapter system - the Legions were tools of conquest wielded by demigods - great for when the Imperium was a conquering juggernaut, totally unsuited to the defensive needs of the post-Heresy Imperium. I could see an argument for needing some kind of larger command structure, rather than just leaving every chapter to be effectively independent and answerable only to the High Lords - a chapter lord who could give assignments to, say, ten chapters, to help coordinate their response - but the Legions of old were simply no longer needed.
@@AdeptKing While I would like the larger chapters, I don't think any Primark or even all loyal Primarks together could change that now. I'm not even sure it would be enough if big E got up to see the High lords and order that the chapter sizes should be increased.
I really hope we get a reverse from how they met in the heresy. I hope Gman finds out about the Lion and doesn’t believe it and has forces waiting in orbit to destroy the “so called” Lion. And all the Lion can do is watch as the brother he believed to be foolish and a traitor comes at him the same way he approached Gman on Macrage. It’s just now Gman is the jaded one.
In, “Son of the Forest,” we -know- Dante has told the Lion about Guilliman’s revival, the rescue of his Chapter, and the Primaris. I daresay he will also tell the Lion about both his and Guilliman’s new titles. And it will make Lion angry. And, as others have said, I foresee Dante playing referee between these two, much like Sanguinius did. Helping them get over themselves and learning to compromise. They’re going to have to have a nice, long talk and clear the air before they move forward.
Screw the lion considered what he did with not telling guilliman about Cruze and then what he did to try to stop cruze.
@ Do I agree with the Lion for withholding that information about Kurze? Definitely not. Do I think he should have mentioned it and asked for Guilliman’s help? Yes. But I am also thankful Guillimom was ok in the end.
I honestly think, Dante is the key to keeping them from fighting amongst each other like they did during imperium secundus,
Both had similar reactions to seeing Dante and both have extreme respect for him for the same reasons. Like sanguinius who always split them up and spoke reason to vanquish their ire for one another. Dante can be that voice, especially since he's been serving in the 40k version of the imperium far, FAR, longer than either primarch
they will be the other way around of imperium secundus when they meet, Roboute being suspicious of the Lion intensions and his new found powers while the Lion being forthcoming, open and warm to his brother
Yea that would be ironic
i see them meeting mid battle with gilli fighting fulgrum and losing again only for the lion to step in and save him
I would like to see Fulgrim trying to fight RG and finding The Lion waiting for him.
Lion: Dear Brother, you told it was boring to fight RB. I promise you much more excitement.
Fulgrim: Maybe this is too much excitement even for me.
Big E would just take over again now that the precedent has been set
@@painlord2kthat would be really cool, genuniely would be an awesome bait and switch
"Not today fulgrim..." The Lion says, then pulls guilliman up with an outstretched hand. Then fulgrim flees like he did with rogal.
Gulliman: Emperor above, the galaxy is a mess. I would give ANYTHING if any ONE of my brothers were here to help me.
Lion: I'm back brother!!
Guilliman: ...when I said 'anyone'....
Guilliman: "Always him, always him"
5 years our time later:
Guilliman: Emperor above, by anyone, I meant Rogal Dorn. Though Vulkan or Corvus would be great too.
Leman: That's fighting words brother.
Lion walks in... "you know Robute, I forget the last time I visited and you weren't setting yourself up at the head of an empire"
It is Emperium Secundus all over again... Guilliman patiently waiting for another brother to drop in and help him out... and Johnson turns up. "The Lion... Really? It just HAD to be the Lion..."
The more I listened to this vid the more I think the entire book should be written about this conversation. There's easily enough material when I think about it... It'd be so intense.
I can't wait to read about how these 2 grown men are gonna talk about the tingle feeling in their backs to activate their superpowers.
I can imagine them finally meeting and then just not speaking for several hours.
I hope GW do a animation of them meeting, With a black and white intro, in a form of drawing style, like some parts of the Hellreach fan animation, where we see back to the Horus Heresy and see the Dark Angels decent on Macragg and G-man and Lion embracing back in the day, then a cut, and were back to 40k color animation, and the into was Gulliman remembering back in time, and then now he sees the Dark Angels decent again.
Any other stance of the Lion except offering his partnership to Guilliman would be just bad writing. Like for example being still mad 10.000 years later the legions were broken up... makes no sense, the Imperium is still standing with zero Primarchs to guide it until very recently, thanks to Guilliman's measures.
Yea, but it wasn’t really 10k years for, very specifically, both of them. One was in stasis for most of it, and the other just woke up from his extremely long nap. So it doesn’t Feel like that long for either of them. Just
I think they will be fine, the Lion has mentally matured alot, he's more sentimental now. He won't have thoughts of petty differences when looking at the state of the Galaxy, especially when he sees and talks with Big E. What a shocker that will be.
I don’t know how you forgot about RG commissioning the primaris marines! That’s going to be a big debate they will have to discuss!
6:24 I'm 100% sure Robute would tell the lion in a heartbeat "you wanna do this job? Be my guest. It's annoying as f*ck". Dude is extremely stressed and would welcome someone else to take the weight off of his shoulders.
I feel like The Lion will come at this with an overall calm and collected manner. Information is key and once he is updated on the current state of the galaxy he will understand The 2 primarchs will have to put away their petty squabbles.
I expect them to be talking about how the Lion is now a Old Man while Gulliman is still his youthful looks from pre heresy.
Me and my son sat and talked about this the other day and came up with a plot for there reunion "Guilliman faces off against the newly returned fulgrim as before fulgrim wins but cant help but start ridiculing him as fulgrim gos to finish the job the lione out his forests relm appears with the emperors shield blocking the strike
The 1st never broke up, it dispersed to cover a larger operational area.
Would be funny if when the Lion arrives at Terra, the Khan stumbles through the Webway portal and was like "Wut?"
Lion and the Emperor reunion is going to be another level of wild i think
I have this funny feeling that Papa Smurf might name him War master
tnx for the post Rho your voice is always nice to hear
I see Guilliman offering The Lion one of the positions; administrator of the Imperium or war leader of the Imperium with equal status.
Half of Jagatai's sons wanted to follow Horus and he killed those who would not bend the knee and the rest had to do a sort of repenture... And he never hid it... So maybe the lion will follow suit
With how the Unforgiven work in 40K I'm guessing the Lion wouldn't care to much of his Legion being made a Chapter. I'm also guessing with how he is with Dante & how he works in the Lion's Protectorate he won't care about the Lord Commander position. In fact with how things are in the Galaxy he will be more likely ask not be given greater power, just stronger power in his section of space.
Would be a bit of a cop out for him to simply dismiss the break up of his Legion. I mean he's already made a dramatic turn of character with the Fallen. Seems like he's lost of a fair chunk of the lore that made him unique and is instead being replaced with something new.
Reminds me of Game of Thrones Season 8 with "subverting expectations".
@@ShadowPhoenixMaximusSaying it reminds you of GOT season 8 is going a bit far.
@@ShadowPhoenixMaximus He got smacked in the face with how a lot of things went down poorly
The dark Angels legion never really got broken up thanks to the nature of the grand masters so he might not be mad about that bit.
This is how I imagine it:
Their fleets meet by accident in the void of space. A space battle almost breaks out but Guilliman and El'Johnson hold their forces back. The Lion asks permission to come aboard because Guilliman has the legal authority.
We go back and forth from both their POV. Guilliman is wondering if the Lion can be trusted due to his disappearance. The Lion is unsure how much he should tell.
The Lion boards Guilliman's flagship. When Guilliman sees the Lion, all of sudden all the stress from the last few centuries and the utter loneliness dissipates. Guilliman begins to cry almost uncontrollably. The Lion runs to Guilliman, embraces him and kisses his forehead saying, "you're not alone anymore."
Just a big bromance scene.
The brothers go and talk. The Lion shows Guilliman the alter-Caliban and reveals most of what has happened and what he has learned but not everything.
Guilliman sees the Fisher King and gives a go at trying to ask the right question.
When they do finally meet up again...
There's a scene I really love in the WWII alternate history novel All the King's Men. A husband and wife got separated during the German invasion of Britain. Each believing the other was dead, they both joined the resistance and ended up leading units behind enemy lines. When they finally meet again, it's in the middle of an emergency, with German forces closing in and both needed to lead their units to escape, and they're both - despite the shock and emotion of seeing each other - completely professional and focused on the mission. I want to see that when the two brothers meet up again.
Guilliman is on a planet, coordinating the defence against a massive tyranid horde. An infiltration force has snuck up and is attacking Guilliman's command centre. Guilliman knows that if he stops coordinating the defence to fight off the swarm at his back, the lines will break and the planet will be lost. Of course if he _doesn't,_ he'll be dead anyway and it becomes academic. A window shatters and half a dozen gaunts pile in. Guilliman's guard fights them off but it's only the first, any second now they'll be overrun, and _why_ in _Dad's name_ does it stink of wet leaves in here??
Which of course is when Lion el'Jonson steps out of the mist and neatly bisects a squad of tyranid warrriors. "Watch your back, you fool!" the Lion roars, as Dark Angels flood out of the forest realm to engage the encroaching swarm.
"I don't need to," Guilliman replies, "You're here now!" And, confident of victory for the first time in ten thousand years, Guilliman grins and goes back to work.
Glad you are not a writer
Half of the exposition will be in each of their inner monologues trying to outwit eachother while pushing down the feelings of nostalgia and urge to bear all.
Wait till the Lion hears about his new sister in law 😂
"You did what! With a what?"
😅
Lion: "I hear slanders about you and an Aeldari Broad and how she kissed you in the booboo and awakened your sword"
RG: "She never kissed me and ..."
Lion: But you would like she did?"
RG:" IT IS NOT CANON!!!!!"
Adeptus Custodes guarding RG: "I think I heard that already somewhere"
The glacial pace that GW maintains when revealing secrets that they created decades ago is infuriating enough. I'll take whatever they give us, but I have to be honest, I am not in the mood for the only loyal Primarchs in the setting having some lame misunderstanding of their actions. This isn't The Young and The Restless. If they suddenly start yelling at each other and one storms off and then agents of Chaos appear to take advantage of the confusion, I'm going to lose it. I need forward momentum, not one step forward, two steps back.
I love this video man. But i would like to hear your take on how the discussions will go!
I would be surprised if guilliman does not already know about caliban and the fallen. He has access to the archive, and he is guilliman
He can infere a lot of information from disparate data.
Like the Lion.
Roboute seeing the Lions Protectorate. "Empire building? For a man of your talents brother?"
Lionel trying to mellow out and save lives from chaos in Nihilus: "Its a peace making life."
All I imagine is:
Girlyman reach's out to shake LE's hand just to get punched saying "What have you been doing!? The empires a mess!!". Girlyman backhands LE saying "Next time choose a better time to take a walk!!"
I could easily see LEJ accusing Guilliman of being careless and irresponsible for going after Fulgrim by himself, and thus damning the Imeprium to degradation and stagnation. But I also think he wouldn't press the point too hard, recalling his own vengeance spree that led him to his own 10,000 year incapacitation.
I would like to see something along the lines of Gman hearing about Fulgrims return. He goes to combat him and gain redemption for his previous loss. He finds Yvraine and the Eldar fighting him already, but losing. He jumps in and does great at first but Fulgrim gains the upper hand and is about to repeat history and take out Gman, but the shadows then darken, and a voice in the darkness says "I stand with you brother". Then out of nowhere in the shadows, the Lion attacks Fulgrim, shielding Gman. The Lion beats fulgrim and now the reunion takes place.
my mind: Lion dimisses and go to hall of primarch with Guilman, and find out he is going to be uncle, a xenos uncle.
So much of this reminds of Imperium secondus, Dante is appointed much like Sanguineous,a ruinstorm in the form of the rift , then the lion possibly being appointed as the enforcer of the Imperium as before . The only differences is the current setting .
I'm probably wrong , but if the Imperium secondus story gave us anything is a window to the future .
Nice video as always :)
PRIMARCHS: CIVIL WAR (Coming to a cinematus near you!)
Lion: “Have you seen any of our other brothers?”
Rob: “Ran into Mortarion, called him a punk and burnt his flower garden.”
Lion: “Nice.”
0:00 Jaded "Chris Redfield" Guilliman is the best artwork of current age M42 Robute ever. Lol.
He looks like Alan Ritchson there.
Is there any hint of FINALLY a novel about this??
I hope that their reunion is of blood brother who haven't seen each other in a while and miss them. But one things for sure, both of them are going to have a primarch-level bitching about the Ecclesiarchy with each other.
Hes gonna wanna know "He did what with a what! GUILLIMAN!"
I think the Lion may make a jab about it, but gets why the Avenging Bean Counter has taken the role he has. Freeing up the Lion to Hunt Beasts and Lead the front.
I don't think I'm forgetting it but gilliman doesn't have a power like lion does. Could be a good topic for a video what kind of power could he get
Vulcan, Dorn, and Jaagetai, not to mention the lost and the banished, hell even Omegon.
Corvus Corax.
I think when the lion forest walks into Robute room and is just chill relax I know all about the ecclesiachry that eldar chick it’s all good little bro where you need me is.going to be a bigger head fk than when Robute had that little sit down with dad lol
Great vid Rho...as always.
Imagine being the PERFECT example of why the legions needed to be broken...then fussing about the legions being broken apart. For real, your number two fell to heresy, took your home-world, fired on your fleet, caused an epic war and wounded you causing a coma for 10,000 years...then you have the audacity to question why YOU, Lionel, do not deserve to lead 100,000 men.
I am not a blueberry fan...but the Lion is a walking emo tantrum. As a Scars fan, my dude didn't do a whole lot better, but in this single issue, Girly-man was correct.
They should bring back Corax next, and then have all three primarchs meet. This way Robute and the Lion would have to come to terms with a upgraded warp primarch.
Honestly, the state of the Imperium is equally their fault. Both went out of their way to recklessly pursue vengeance. Both ended up biting off more than they could chew and ended up taking an extended nap.
If this is not handled well and is really short I'll be very upset. There is so much for them to discuss.
How much time seperates their respective returns?
Personally I also want to see them meet Bjorn for that talk since he has been around this whole time and they probably at least know of him given he was in Russ's Wolf guard. A discussion between the Lion and Guilliman on the Codex Astartes will be really interesting especially given apparently Gillian is at least partly doubting his decision to split the legions. Granted at the time I think the splitting of the legions was the right call and done for the right reasons, the method of doing so was flawed and pointed out to Guilliman. There are threats that take more than one thousand space marines and the adherence to that number (roughly as I am pretty sure if a chapter went a little above the imperium would be fine with it, so I doubt having an extra dozen or so brothers or even a little more than that would cause a problem) has caused problems. Huron Blackheart and his Red Corsairs might not be a problem if not for that size restriction. Honestly my big problem with the splitting of the legions is the generification of combat doctrine/units. While back in the day the core of the legions were made up of the same style troops, they did all have their own specialist troops and the codex seems to have mostly gotten rid of those and I want them back (as a raven guard fan give me back my Mor Deythan for example).
With all the hype surrounding the Primarchs…oozing charisma and threat in equal measure yada yada, they sure act like children when in the same room talking with one another. I’d just for once like to see these two RG and Lion actually have a real sit-down and meaningful conversation. Stasis or “sleeping” 10k yrs is a freaking long time-and even with super human speed reading will take more than a few hours to catch up.
Think about it,,,these 2 Primarchs could map out the road to Imperial “recovery”.
It will be interesting to see what the Emperor will say-if anything-to the Lion when the Lion demands an audience with “Dad”.
Very curious if the Lion will go see the Emperor. Or try to. I'd imagine he'd absolutely insist on it. Or both him and Guilliman seeing him at the same time.
some secrets are best kept secret as the line the fewer that know, the better.
Things that probably happen when they reunite:
Guilliman and Lion reunite with Dante to make a triunvirate to rule the Imperium. Giving the Lion again the title of protector of the Imperium; Dante keeping his current title...
This will make resurface the loose end of "Godblight" book, when Fabian Guelphrain discover the whole Imperium Secundus stuff...
At least thats what I think could possibly happen. 😂
I think it would be dope if G-man and the Lion swap sword and shield upon meeting
I like to think that the Lion and Gman will serve different purposes for the emperor, opposite from their old roles and which suits the new gifts they were given. Gman will be the arm of retribution with the sword of the emperor. And given the lions stance on his legion in the books I think it would be cool to see him as the primarch of redemption. And imagine renegade or traitor legion loyalists seeing the lion for his own wandering sons and have them start rallying to his banner and be accepted. Imagine how pissed off the chaos gods would be if the lion started converting marines back to the imperial side. Add that the ecclesiarchy will love the lion who could serve as proof of the emperors divinity.
In the grand scheme I think a scene where Fulgrim has Gman cornered and suddenly out of no where the Lion shows up from a random forest that wasn’t there a second ago leading dark angels, blood angels and other marines with church music suddenly blasting everywhere as the sisters follow them out and how confusing for everyone that would be. Bonus points if they somehow steal the Fulgrim clone from Trazhan and he is there leading loyalist emperors children to really spit in the eye of daemon Fulgrim as he is about to pull of his greatest triumph. As for how the Lion could recover clone Fulgrim well he can forest walk anywhere he needs to and if he ever thought about how he wished there was a chance to redeem Fulgrim there is a chance the forest could actually lead him right to the clone Fulgrim. The books make it clear that the clone actually seems to contain part of Fulgrims true soul and the forest could bring that Fulgrim into contact with the part of the emperor inside it. If the representation of the Emperor inside the caliban forest showed the Lion that he accepted the clone I think the Lion would too
One of the other issues that they need to talk about is Vulcan return some 9k years ago 🤔
(Lion sparta kicks guillmans door open) shouting *YOU CLAPPED ZENO CHEEKS!?!?!?!?!?*
30k Lion would 200% reform his entire legion as soon as he could…
GW would never allow successor chapters of the Dark Angels to be over and done with.
who is this yvraane? and what are these rumours i hear
the lion probably
It be nice for this stuff to actually pick up the pace it be cool if I’m not 60 by the time the plot actually picks up
Big clanky power armor hugs!!
Maybe Gullimans psychic power is entirely aura based? Seeing as he's never used any psychic powers forwardly.
Wasn't it implied the injured man in the forest was the emperor? And the Lion had to figure out the correct question
I think The Lion will be honest with Roboute. While also asking him to give him some allowances to do what he must for the soul of the First. And I'm pretty sure Rob will let him.
After what Guilliman allows Cawl to do, if the Lion told Guilliman everything about the First RG would be: "Ok. Don't worry. Shit happens. Don't do it again".
Rho could you beat up Leutin in an IRL fight?
YOU DID WHAT WITH A WHAT!? Lion El Johnson. On the eldar harlot
but robute isn’t playing emperor , he’s doing what he can to get it back on track
What about talking about the traitor brothers, has Guillaman spoke to them, what are they like now. And what about a reunion with all the traitor brothers, are we going to see all four in one room when Fulgrim returns.
How many Gulliman hair clipping relics do you think there are in the universe?
Guilliman and El'Johnson shouldn't meet yet. They should run into a traitor primarch first, like Fulgrim or Perturabo, for a battle of words that shakes lose a few secrets. That way when they do meet there is something deeper than a mere clash of personalities at play.
OFC he wont bend any knee. Nor will Guilliman ask him to. If needs be, he will even ask The lion if he wants that regent title (Though both of them know he is a warrior, not a ruler)
The Lion vs Fulgrim?
Both Primarchs Legions are Prime Numbers. I and XIII
As is Corax (XIX)
Imperial Fists (VII) and/or White Scars (V) are my predictions for their Primarchs to return next
It will start with these Primarchs
I think 30k morals guilliman would be more understanding about also didn't guilliman attend a inner circle meeting as was like I know.
You guys might not like to hear this, but I'd bet most of this conversation will happen off screem
I disagree completely about how things will go. Why on earth would Lion be angry and Guilliman? I mean he would very much prefer him over anybody else. It was different before, as there were options during heresy, but now he was only option. So I think Lion would take it very well.
First of all, GW's codex and novel writers seriously need to start speaking with one another to stop contradicting themselves.
Naah, most anticipated reunion is for Bjorn and Russ.
Show Lion the sword given to him by Emperor and Lion will have less to say.
I know i am gonna get called lore newbie over this question, but i have got to ask. Why the hell haven't they met already!? This is dumb even from a monetary business standpoint. We have had plenty of time to anticipate and build hype. GW is gonna lose that hype if they keep dragging their feet. I guess they are too busy with femstodes to bother with one of the greatest moments that could ever happen in the lore.
Also it probobly wont happen but the smartest thing guilliman could do when meeting the lion is hand the emperors sword to him and go. Here, have fun...
The chapters are slowly going to fall under their primarch. Not all of them but some of the chapters will coalesce under thier primarch. Still with thier chapter falling into the legion leadership.
Your wrong. Lionel grew up!