How House Of The Dragon Created The Problems It's Trying To Fix With House Velaryon
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- Опубликовано: 20 май 2024
- House of the Dragon tried to remedy the lack of diversity in the World of Ice and Fire by making one of its primary families, House Velaryon, Black instead of white. This change may have been a good one, but by simply race-swapping these characters, they created the kinds of problems that they were originally trying to fix.
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Racebending Is A Simple Solution To A Complex Problem
04:35 Not Changing The Text Changes The Subtext
09:08 The Subtle Racism That Racebending Has Created
15:04 Outro 
Развлечения
My problem with the race swapping is the family lore. House Valaryon married with the Targaryens ever since the Targaryens moved to dragonstone from Valyria. Valaena Valaryon is the mother of Aegon Visenya and Rhaenys and Alyssa Valaryon is the mother of the old king Jaehaerys and good queen Alysanne. So shouldnt all the Targaryens be biracial like Baela and Rhaena? Thats another issue they ignore. The show makes it seems Rhaenys and Corlys were the first married match between the houses.
Alyssa also married into the Baratheon family and gave birth to two children, one of which was Rhaenys's own mother, Jocelyn Baratheon, so shouldn't Rhaenys, Boremund and Borros Baratheon be by a certain degree biracial themselves? We also saw at the beginning of the series that Jaehaerys is as white as a person who is supposed to be biracial can be, and while I know that people of colour can come in all shapes and colours it is not that hard to believe that they just forgot or were too lazy to realize that he supposedly has a black mother.
True. I thought the same thing. But corlys mothers is unknown and is theorized by some, with little evidence form the books that Corlys and vaemond mother is form the summer isles. They are very dark of skin. So it could only be that line who’s black. Due to their mother.
This is a legitimate point, but just suspend your belief on this quite minor issue, because the Valaryons being black helped elucidate/make absolutely clear a FAR more important narrative plot point (the questionable parentage of Rhaenerys. Personally, I think it was an excellent decision since it helps make the aforementioned plot point crystal clear while only pissing off a segment of ardent fans who care about accurate genetics in ASOIF.
I'm okay with that because the show is a separate continuity.
@@yggdrasil2 that's fine but they gonna have to do alot of explaining if they cover the conquest and The reign of king Aenys which Mos likely will happen at some point.
The most awkward thing about racebending House Velaryon is that it was done without racebending House Targaryen. They've been intermarrying for 200-odd years by the time the Dance takes place, yet the Targaryens are white. Even Old King Jaehaerys, son of Alyssa Velaryon and Aenys I [who was canonically 1/4 Velaryon, 3/4 Targaryen, like Baela and Rhaena], was white in the show. If a Conquerors show ever gets made, it will be difficult to explain how the mixed-race Conquerors managed to have a line of mostly all-white descendants, as well as how / when / why they were whitewashed by Westerosi historians.
Someone pointed out that we don't know for how long for how long the Velaryons have been black. If for instance Corlys father was white but his mother was black it could work
I might be wrong but I think Grrm confirmed that Corlys mom is from the Summer isles so he and his siblings and their kids would be black but not the Velaryon family as a whole
@@embel1213the issue with that being the reason of course is that Corlys’s entire retinue of Velaryons he brought for the big wedding feast were also dark-skinned, so did he only bring members of his house that also had Summer Islander blood? The show seems to suggest that it really is that the entirety of House Velaryon was dark-skinned and always have been, so you really need to do some headcanon that perhaps all the Velaryons that married into the Targs (or at least Alyssa and Valaena) were lighter-skinned than Baela/Rhaena in order for Jaehaerys and the Baratheons to turn out as pale as they did. Now you could argue that the Durrandon-Baratheon “Strong seed” accounts for the Baratheons not showing their Velaryon heritage, (although I’d argue that with how Targaryen Rhaneys looks compared to her book counterpart retaining her mother’s Black Durrandon-Baratheon hair, it’s clear that the writers aren’t that concerned about Baratheon strong seed), but you can’t make the same argument for the Targs like Jarhaerys considering that Laenor/Laena and Baela/Rhaena give pretty clear indication that Valyrian Dragonlord heritage does not always force pale skin.
Assuming that the same biological inheritance laws exist in Westeros is fatal, because they clearly do not. For example, it's impossible for the Starks to have maintained their phenotypic traits for six thousand years.
@@samwinchester1326 IIRC Georgie has said that there's magic involved with the Main Houses of Westeros maintaining their "looks" over multiple thousands of years, hence why the only times that kids from one house will look different from their parent is if they marry a similar-level house, like how Ned's Stark-kids look like their Tully Mother.
Arrgggg don't remind me of that Laenor fakeout death. The story's callousness towards the death of the body double (also seen when Rhaenys massacred hundreds of smallfolk at the Dragonpit) was really painfully antithetical to GRRM's themes. It made zero sense as a political strategy for Rhaenyra, and the whole 'don't tell his parents about it' thing was super cruel to Rhaenys and Corlys, but not really treated that way in-story (I hope they fix that for season 2...) The whole incident screamed of the writers going "well Daemon and Rhaenyra obviously killed him, but how do we do this in a way where they're still the good guys", and as a consequence, logic and the characters were badly warped. One of the weakest parts of the season, for sure.
Yeah it's astoundingly nonsensical, especially when so much of their political and military strategy relied on the power of the Velaryons backing them. Like, okay sure, you MIGHT scare a bunch of people into submission, or you might scare them into striking at you before you can strike at them, and you might alienate your most powerful allies that you basically have no shot at winning the throne without.
This created so many problems... Like, why nobody mentioned his death except Rhaenys? The greens should have been SCARED af after it ( as Rhaenyra said at the end of the episode) because Rhaenyra/ Daemon, in order to get married, killed a royal man that was on their side, had a dragon and was a very important match for Rhaenyra to keep the whole house Velaryon on their side.The fact that they killed him should have shown the greens that they weren't safe.But Alicent was ready to give Rhaenyra the throne? What? His death didn't have any consequences. Shit, even Rhaenys forgave Rhaenyra and was defending her when Corlys found out about Vaemond's death. Can you imagine what would ANY mother from GOT do to Rhaenyra after that ?
And don't get me started why Rhaenys didn't notice that the body didn't belong to her son. I swear, if Laenor's parents knew from the start about his fake death, the whole situation wouldn't have been so stupid. Even in the book the support Rhaenyra had from the Velaryons was kinda questionable, but in the show almost nothing has consequences in order to serve " Rhaenyra is a woman but she's a great ruler" narrative, even though she didn't do anything to prove that, maybe didn't start the war immediately but it was in ep. 10(!). Alicent forgetting that her children are in danger, Rhaenys ignoring her son's death, Corlys forgiving his brother's death and so on - everything to show that nobody has a great reason to be opposed to Rhaenyra. Even Vaemond was was a misogynist.
Personally I don't really like rhenerya and daemon. I consider then both villians. Yes the greens have villians as well but they have reasonable justification behind their actions and I think they would be better rulers
@@yasmina3999 the body was burned.
@@jjh2456 only his head.
I disagree with this take.
I'm black, and I'm only saying so because it's relevant to the conversation, and I never wanted the race bending to begin with. My sense of self as a black person isn't so fragile that I need to be represented in every piece of media that I watch. I care about the characters, not their race.
That being said, I appreciate that they told the story as they did instead of adding modern day politics into it.
Vaemond opposing the Blacks and being villainized for it is just the plot. It doesn't have anything to do with him being black.
Black characters can be heroes or villains and the latter isn't racist. It's just realistic. Racism ends when we stop making everything about race and just see people as people.
not sure if it's true but I heard that GRRM initially wanted to make the valerians/honorary white supremacist be black ...with white hair and purple eyes, but chickened out precisely because he's a white man in america... and plus since then he found out he's part jewish, cuz nothing simplifies a discussion like adding holocaust into the conversation.
I kinda wanna see the twitter scandals of that time line, maybe in some other parallel universe, ppl are arguing over the fact that they made the only black family evil and oppressing a continent full of white ppl with their death lizards. And somehow it's a jewish messaging.
Yes, I am gay and don't want or need character's to be changed into being gay in order to feel validated. I especially don't want gay characters to re-contextualized with the baggage of modern american politics.
@Sam_Kings I'm so glad someone said it! I'm all for inclusiveness, but in all of these remakes (which seems to be everything anymore), I hate the deviation from the original story. Roswell was a great show back in the early 2000s and I loved the character dynamic in the original and the couples. They changed 2 characters sexual preferred which ruined 2 of my favorite relationships in the original. I was so looking forward to seeing that again. I still love the dynamic that they did set up with the new couples, but I was very disappointed in the change at first.
I disagree with this take but I don't feel like arguing with the race part. I do think things are mostly about race because we (maybe I'm being presumptuous about you idk where you're from) live in the West and racial hierarchies are holdovers from colonialism. To each is own I guess. I do think that the show actually did put modern gender politics in the show though. The show is filthy with girl-boss feminism that wants to gloss over the fact that Rhaenyra's an exception and not the rule to succession to the Iron Throne. We are to root for her because she is the first woman to be considered for the throne, but she seems to have no intentions of keeping succession age-based because, as the video stated, she passes over her stepdaughters, who have a much stronger claim to Driftmark because of their deceased mother, for her obviously illegitimate sons.
@@arielpearson4819 Yes I agree 100% about the girl boss feminism. Rhaenyra is not a woman's woman otherwise she would support her step-daughter's true claim to Driftmark. And this is what I mean, in either a racial or gender context, that all these narratives are just being forced upon us. Race in terms of colonialism and modern feminism in terms of misogyny, but I respect that you don't want to talk about race.
I just feel like, given Westerosi culture, let's not force modern politics into it because it cheapens the story and feels like pandering. I just want to watch a good show, I don't want to be preached to.
Rhaenyra had all the time to legitimise her claim to the Iron Theone. Viserys gave her opportunities and she squandered them. I'm team Black all the way!
Huh, I never perceived Vaemond as villainous. I thought he seemed really cool, and his death was really upsetting.
he wasn't taking the throne for his nieces, his true blood but for himself because he's a big bad misogynistic man. hence the villainy.
rheinira isn't a feminist either, in case that wasn't clear to ppl. I see that whenever I explain a plot point ppl think I'm team green or black.
@@HisameArtworkWhy would he take the throne for his niece when neither she nor her parents nor her grandparents were fighting for the throne for themselves?
@@sugarpearl9781they are referring to the driftwood throne not the iron throne. The driftwood throne is the the seat of the head of house velaryon. Following male primogeniture which most of westeros seems to follow the rightful heir is the elder of Baela/ Rhaena not Vaemond. Of course it is possible that Velaryons use male line only inheritance in which case vaemomd would be the rightful heir.
I would say that the general audience pretty much sees him as villainous, he wants to "steal" the throne from Rhaenyra's son and not even give it to his niece but to himself and then he calls Rhaenyra a whore, the ultimate sin, and in the beginning we also see him complain about Daemon.. he gets no sympathetic moments.
@@han-oq6bo I know, that’s the throne I’m talking about as well. Why would he fight for Baela or Rhaena’s inheritance when they won’t fight for it themselves?
It's the fact that the Velaryons, like the Targaryens being of Valyrian descent and a huge part of their old culture was slavery and they were proud of their old heritage, the fact that they made the Velaryons black is..... a bit messed up.
Exactly, for me it's just a fatal misread of the audience because, realistically, a fuckton of their viewers come from the US/Western world where slavery and racism are essentially inextricably linked.
I would say it's a different context though. GRRM based his world off Roman/Medieval Europe, where people were mostly, or almost all white. Having one family be mixed doesn't change much apart from the obviousness of the bastards.
No slavery is Westeros
Just lots of serfs which is worse than slavery
@@equusquaggaquagga536 first of all its not, Tyrion enslaved even thinks something along the lines of 'the lowliest serving man in Casterly Rock has a waay better life than the best off Ghisgari slave'. Second of all theyre not saying the Velaryons still do that, just that they probably did back during the Valyrian Freehold.
you know that africans had slaves as well right?
As a black man, I have mixed feelings about race-bending. I agree with the overall sentiment that fantasy genres could use more diversity. But as an inspiring writer, I always had a pet peeve about folks who change or deviate from the source material in the guise of "fixing it." I think race-bending the Velaryons is a case of it going wrong. The intention my have been well-meaning, but the long storytelling consequences and repercussions wasn't well thought, because they unintentionally and inadvertently made the primary black family in ASOIAF look like a bunch chumps who are subservient to their superior white family members. Perhaps these issues can be rectified in future seasons, but I doubt give how the Team Blacks has been portrayed in the series just far.
If you think anyone had well intentions in this matter and wanted to fix something to improve... you couldn't be more wrong, you sweet summer child...
@@saymyname2417 Indeed
As a white guy from a 99.9% all white country i would love original black characters in Asoiaf or more original black fantasies. Most people where i am from hated how they turned the Witcher which is Slavic- Polish culture into an all american diverse cast just for the sake of it when it was suppose to honor old Slavic religion and culture.
My advice for all tv shows is - stop racebending and genderbending and make more original characters.
Yeah, I think one way around it would be to have more fantasy movies and other media inspired by other cultures and times than just medieval Western Europe, rather than racebending. Let's have more shows inspired by African, Asian and Mesoamerican cultures and historical expierences. But that obviously connects to the a different problem of corporations focused so much these days on producing content based on pre-existing franchises, which are dominated by that quasi-medieval Western Europe fantasy genre.
Generally I don't like Racebending if it goes against the source material and in the case of the Velaryons being black, I don't think the show runners fully thought about the implications.
It might've been a better idea to make House Strong black instead of House Velaryon because it would help the plot when (a white man) Laenor's supposed son Jace comes out looking like a black child.
As in canon questions will be raised especially as there is one noticably Black family ie House Strong as to why two supposedly white people produced a kid that was distinctly half-black.
I think it very easily couldve been solved by establishing that the Velaryons married summerislanders, maybe Corlys' mother and grandmother. Instead of going for this, we've been pure for 309482 years blabla that Corlys was going on about. I think its good to add more diversity and have more representation but you also need to actually think about the story implications. I think Laenor's non death is because they didnt want to kill 1) another gay man and 2) another black man in one season and if you're too cowardly to make the decision thats better for the story then you simply shouldnt be writing the story.
There were so many ways they could have added diversity in this show. Legitimate, lore supported ways. Instead they chose to change the blood purists who’s only relevance to the story is that they look like Targaryen’s. A family who gets almost completely destroyed by the end of this. It’s lazy, and kind of insulting.
I think modern, specifically American society likes to create subtextual political messages in media, where they are not ment to be. A lot of the fantasy genre, especially franchises like ASOIAF, LOTR and The Witcher, which were created in the XX century, are based mostly on medieval Europe which wasn't very racially diverse. It's not like these books didn't have people of colour at all, but the story was definitely not centered around them. I think the better solution would be creating new original fantasy, where people of colour are represented better. It's definitely more challenging than a simple race bending in popular franchises, but more rewarding for the audience. To be fair, House Of The Dragon is one of the few shows, that handled race bending better than most. I am not American, so I don't care that much for subtextual messages the American audience might interpret. The Velaryons in my opinion definitely nailed their role.
Oh I think the Velaryons absolutely killed it, it's just that subtext exists within media whether it is intended to be there or not. And I find the whole "it's based on history" to be kind of a weak angle of defense, just because regardless of inspiration, if you can stretch that reality enough to include literal magic but it doesn't ever occur to you to add non-white characters, then it's worth asking why that is.
@@HillsAliveYT it's a viable question, which sometimes can be logically answered. Maybe lack of experience communicating with non-white people in some cases. For example, the author of The Witcher series is from Poland, which even now has a very low non-white population percentage. In fact, it's one of the most monoethnical nations in Europe. So it's understandable for Anjei Sapkovski to base his inspiration on what he knew - European tales, myths and legends with a bit of Slavic flavour. And even his first book, which is a collection of novels, had two twin-sister characters from Zerrikania which in this universe is far in the south, and they had African appearance. Sadly, this was their one and only time to shine in the series, as it later focused more on global poltical events and how they affected the main characters along with people who they met on their journey. Netflix's adaptation did so little to capture this greatness and ultimately flopped, when House Of The Dragon despite some problematical episodes (hm-hm Episode 9), managed to succeed staying true to its source material.
@@HillsAliveYT
There is an abundance of non-white characters in the continents of Essos or Sothoryos, just so happens that the story of the Targaryen Dynasty played out in Westeros - a mostly white continent.
The world was constructed in a realistic way to the context of itself - with our world as the basis, of course - so it should be measured, primarily, by its internal logic.
Imagine that the setting of the next show is the Dothraki sea, following some khalasars, and so just happens that one of those are made up of white man. It would raise questions from the viewers (why are the peoples of this khalasar white, if it goes against what was established before? did occur a migration from other cultures that were absorbed? how does that change de dynamics of the dothraki - if it does at all? etc, etc) and if these questions dont serve the story, maybe they shouldnt be brought forth.
It is the care that a adaptation must have to not go against the setting and established rules (magical or otherwise) of the original material.
It is my opinion take on the subject. ✌
To say that Europe wasn’t racially diverse is to ignore European history. I hate post colonial thinking because despite myself repeating that race is a social construct and that it’s more accurate to say that people are more different ethnically than racially people still say the same things about race. At this point I give up people will always spread misinformation and talk as if race exists because of white supremacy it’s really really frustrating and everyone does it
@@dimitrescucrncevic9746pretty much only Spain was 'diverse' in medieval times. And because it was colonized by arabs and north Africans
I'm brown but I don't want a character brown just for the sake of it - that's why HOTD is pure cringe
@@DearAphrodite A lot of characters are white because the story is set in alternate version of *mediaeval Europe*
@@DearAphrodite There are brown characters in Essos which anyone with common sense knows is based on Middle East/Egypt and Daenerys is from Westeros which is based on Europe and Daenerys, a westerosi, is an exile in Essos.
That's why those brown characters are in Essos but NOT in Westeros. GoT portrays whites as servants in Westeros.
Last I checked *Summer Island* was NOT in Westeros.
Black Velaryon fcuks up with genetics because it's a story where hair colour matters let alone the skin colour & facial features.
If they were really interested in a great character that happened to be bla¢k and they should have introduced one not race swap one which doesn't follow any logic.
@@BDnevernind I never said anything about aesthetic, I only said *logic* .
Dragons & magic are totally fine cause they follow the *in-universe rule* while Black Velaryons totally violate that as it's a story where something as simple as hair colour matters. Don't confuse *in-universe* logic & rules with your universe.
@@BDnevernind "But the dragons and magic are weirder than black Medieval characters."
But magic and dragons are part of European mythology and folklore.
@@BDnevernind What part of my comment gave you the idea I was upset? I don't know what that has to do with "porting racial preferences into this conversation." I merely pointed out that dragons and magic are both common to European folklore, although I probably should have been more specific and said Saxon/Celtic folklore such as Beowulf or Arthurian legend considering how many characters and plot points Martin took almost straight from British history, even down to the Red Wedding. I just like history and language. Chill.
There isn’t a problem to be fixed with being of European heritage or of a lighter complexion -no one gets to choose how they’re born. 😅 Nor is there an issue with authors who write characters with darker or lighter complexions. Or shows that have casts who share a similar complexion or vary, it just depends on the story.
The Velaryon’s being of a darker complexion doesn’t make sense in the show, that does not detract from the actors’ performances, it’s simply a case of Valyrians (the ethnic race the Velayrons belong to) being described as lighter skinned with blue/purple eyes and sliver to gold hair -when both parents are of Valyrian descent.
If the show had a line about Corlys’ mother being a sothoryi that would have helped to make it more convincing. Obv some people would still complain about Steve Toussaint but they need to touch grass, because he was great as Lord Corlys.
Whether or not the show may have incorporated another mention of Valyrians and Sothoryi relations, which were terrible during the old days of Valyria and it’s questionable breeding programs…. The opportunity to give a little in-world expansion instead of suspending disbelief, within a fantasy tale, would have been only a benefit. One that gives legitimacy within the story.
The only other point I have to mention is please consider not everyone watching HoTD and listening to you is American. The vast majority of people outside of America are aware of America’s history when it comes to slavery and racial divisions. American history is not the measure for all other nations, those extinct and in existence. Martin’s Rome example is one which understandably contrasts sharply to an American understanding of slavery, instead of simply dismissing it because it isn’t the American understanding, take it as a learning point. That as an institution slavery comes in many forms and has existed for a very long time, unfortunately so.
Thanks for the video discussion. 👍
It is great to have the opportunity to listen and read other povs.
Yeah I am not trying to imply that American history = all history, quite the opposite in fact. The point that I was trying to make there is that there is a super specific cultural understanding of slavery that the author of the book has and that a huge portion of the overall audience has, so that has a significant impact on the content itself even if it's not the lived experience of every single person who watches the show. GRRM can take inspiration from the Roman institution of slavery, but that doesn't remove the reality that he almost 100% for sure grew up with a very specific culture-based understanding of what slavery is, and the effect of that can still be seen even if he was consciously drawing inspiration from something else. Ultimately every single thing I say is going to not resonate with someone for some reason, but given that a lot of people who watch the show and the majority of the people who watch my channel are American, discussing the way in which American culture can impact the creation and interpretation of HotD is a worthwhile topic IMHO.
@@HillsAliveYT 100%
I understand the points you make and your reasonings.
I would have to disagree on your point of culture-based understanding on slavery passively affecting (in this case GRRM) conception of slavery in Westeros to a standard as significant as you imply. I don’t doubt it’s existence entirely -the knowledge on American history in relation to slave is well known and easy to identify. I do think though, given his comments on Roman slavery, that he looked to other forms and did not limit himself to just the American experience. Done purposefully.
Given we don’t know exactly what he was thinking, beyond what he has said, and we do know through the books how he developed slavery within Asoiaf there is credence to this. To imply otherwise is a bit unfair.
There is no issue with suggesting, and opening the point for discussion (as your videos often do, and well!) In fact your last point sparks a few ideas on how the relationship between media, audience and cultural context/history mixes.
If HOTD had any balls, Baela would’ve been shown to take issue with Luke taking the Driftwood throne rather than herself. Instead we get her accepting it and smiling at Jace when they’re announced at betrothed. Reminded me of Bonnie from TVD smiling and waving as her friends participate in a parade celebrating the confederacy 💀
I would have like to see baela having a beef with rhaenyra after her father's marriage with her. They are making rhaenyra a mary sue where everyone loves her for no reason lmao
I do not see how racebending characters for its own sake is an obvious net positive change. You see, every piece of fiction wants to tell a story and the setting of said story does not need to represent every possible characteristic of the consumers - many times, it can detract of the story even.
As an exemple: Westeros is a fictional continent with its own seasonal, geographic, religious, race, cultural other distinctions - all made up, but presented to the consumer as it is, nonetheless. The story was made inside this specific setting, so every time that it goes against it (characters traveling thousands of kilometers on a few days; characters from a specific race being presented with different phenotypic traits; etc) there is a detraction from the story.
If representativity if important to the author, a way much more interesting, in my opinion, would be to find ways to add whatever you want to add complying with the setting (if a message needs to reach thousands kilometers, maybe it should be delivered by bird; if there is a want to put actors of a specific race in the story, find a suitable character or create a new one that will both comply with the setting and enhance the story; etc) and thus enhancing or at least not detracting from the story.
As a consumer of fiction I find that the story must be in the forefront, not the politics, or representation, or anything else. When the quality of the story is put on second plane it is very sad indeed.
I hope we will be able to enjoy many more stories that are matter in itself - in the setting of Planetos and many others.
Peace ✌
There was no need to insert black actors to portray the Velaryons for diversity's sake. George's world is already organically diverse. All they had to do is create a storyline that fits the main story and intersects with it using Summer Islanders, who in the books are one of the sanest civilizations in a world of messed up nations. That said, the performances given by all of the black actors were stellar, I have no problem with the actors. I do feel though that the race swap messes with not only plot points in HOTD, but everything that comes after it including ASOIAF.
If you thought Vaemond was being portrayed as villainous, that's on you. I didn't think Vaemond was being positioned as a villain at all.
@@BDnevernind
Everyone just thinks Rhaenyra is the Feminist Queen who will reform Westeros, and a Vaemond is a misogynist standing in her way.
Truth is, Rhaenyra is just as misogynistic as everyone else, and killed Vaemond just to silence him, and that is a political blunder that will cause the Velaryons to betray her.
Agreed 100%. there are a ton of morally gray or outright evil characters in HotD. Vaemond was the least of “problematic” characters if we look objectively at the storylines in the first season. But since he’s black it’s super easy for some to see him as more villianous than his character actually was.
Yeah Vaemond isn’t villainous like Joffrey or Ramsey. His flaw is that he’s ambitious and self-serving. He’s a second son who resents being a second son and has a massive chip on his shoulder. The most “evil” thing he does is try to circumvent Corlys’ wish for the Driftmark inheritance. In the context of other heinous things villains in GoT have done, this isn’t really evil. He’s definitely portrayed as an antagonist but he’s not a villain.
They made Vaemond call Rhaenyra a whore💀
@@Butterfly-ll7mm and he is in the wrong for that, but he’s not wrong for calling her out on trying to steal the Driftwood throne
To be fair to GRRM’s writing, Asoiaf primarily takes place in Westeros, which is a clear parallel to medieval Europe. In the Middle Ages, Europe wasn’t exactly super diverse. There were some people from other regions, but frankly, why bother going to medieval Europe if you’re not from there? The Islamic world was a lot nicer (yes I know about Iberia), and closer to most places. And in the case of Iberia, which was under Arab rule at the time, it’s paralleled in Dorne.
BUT… there does seem to be a pretty big lack of characterization when it comes to a lot of non-white characters. Especially the Dothraki. Daenerys’s bloodriders and “handmaids”(slaves) have an especially bothersome lack of depth. There are some good non-white side characters in Strong Belwas and Brown Ben Plumm, but Daenerys’s story is full of missed potential for character exploration.
BUT ALSO… Dorne is really good in the books. Arianne and Quentyn are well-written POVs. The sand snakes are great, and only one of them is white. Doran, Oberyn and Ellaria are well-developed as well.
Arianne especially strikes me. Because when we first see her from the pov of Arys Oakheart, she seems like a shallow “evil foreign brown seductress” trope. But then we see the world from her perspective, and we see her complex inner self. She’s a well-rounded character, and seems to be a purposeful subversion of the aforementioned “evil foreign brown seductress” trope.
You think racism always existed as we know it? That's not the case.
Medieval Europeans actually looked to West Africans as rich and exotic.
And Catherine of Aragon brought over Black ladies-in-waiting and
soldiers and they intermarried with the locals. A few even went to
Scotland with Catherine's sister-in-law Mary Tudor (the Queen-Consort).
It was only with colonialism and the trans-Atlantic slave trade that
Europeans became very anti-Black.
@@jasonhaven7170 Buddy… did I ever mention racism?
@@Methus3lah Yes, because Europe was more diverse than you think. Black frequently intermarried into nobility and aristocracy. Starting with Catherine of Aragon's ladies-in-waiting and the latest (but not modern) being Abram Petrovich Gannibal who literally was made into a noble and was the great-grandfather of Alexander Pushkin (who is considered the Shakespeare of Russia).
@@jasonhaven7170lmao frequently you named three people, none of them from the middle ages. Stop spreading fake news “starting with lady catherine of Aragon’s ladies in waiting” 1500s isnt even the middle ages anymore buddy the renaissance has happened by then. Bro ur clearly got this from ur british uni history class didnt you? Did they also show you the pic of the one black trumpteer. Woaaaah much diversity.
@@lordofmankind33 It's not fake news, you uneducated imbecile. It's recorded history and fact. And Game of Thrones is based on the Wars of the Roses which was the late 15th century, not long before Catherine of Aragon first came to the UK.
"Early in the 16th century, Catherine of Aragon likely brought servants from Africa among her retinue when she travelled to England to marry Arthur, Prince of Wales; she would go on to marry his younger brother Henry VIII. A black musician is among the six trumpeters depicted in the royal retinue of Henry VIII in the Westminster Tournament Roll, an illuminated manuscript dating from 1511. He wears the royal livery and is mounted on horseback. The man is generally identified as the "John Blanke, the blacke trumpeter," who is listed in the payment accounts of both Henry VIII and his father, Henry VII. A group of Africans at the court of James IV of Scotland, included Ellen More and a drummer referred to as the "More taubronar". Both he and John Blanke were paid wages for their services. A small number of black Africans worked as independent business owners in London in the late 1500s, including the silk weaver Reasonable Blackman"
"During the later 16th century as well as into the first two decades of the 17th century, 25 people named in the records of the small parish of St. Botolph's in Aldgate are identified as "blackamoors."
"rchival evidence shows records of more than 360 African people between 1500 and 1640 in England and Scotland."
"As a result, Liverpool is home to Britain's oldest black community, dating at least to the 1730s."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British_people
They should have race-swapped Velaryon to be Japanese not black... That makes more sense since they come from an eastern dragon-worshipping culutre originally - have pale skin - and could conceivably intermix with the caucasion Targaryen without it being too noticable.
If they wanted black characters then logically it should have been Hightowers. Hightowers live in Old Town, which is an old southern port. Directly south is the Summer Islands, the only known place where black people live on Planetos.
If Nelson Mandela was played by Brad Pitt and Shaka the Zulu by Orlando Bloom. I would criticize it because the actors do not represent both historical characters well. The change in the Velaryons made the paternity of Rhaenyra's children too obvious, even more than is tolerable for the laws of Westeros, and that will make support for Rhaenyra a bit more hyphenated than in the books where it is already hyphenated. a lot of lords who refuse to name their eldest daughters as heir (ah if Lord Casswel's loyalist has an eldest daughter he refuses to name heir and Lord Rosby is in the same) support the succession claim of a woman who He has 3 legitimate brothers.
It's fictional story, Mandela and Shaka existed.
@@jasonhaven7170 Perfect, let's leave the fiction as it is in the books and the historical characters as they existed. Thus we save unnecessary controversies.
@@davidduran6163 No. GRRM wanted this. Your opinion is irrelevant.
@@jasonhaven7170 No, GRRM he wrote the books from 1995 to the present day and the differences are too evident with what is reflected on the screen. Don't think about what you don't know, because it shows that you didn't even read the books.
@@davidduran6163 And did you also forget that he runs the show and writes for the show, so this is evidently what he wants now. You really are stuck in the past.
Yeah I think a few small changes could've made Vaemond's last stand and death work a lot better? Give him a few more scenes, make the story a little less pro-Rhaenyra... I think with the scene of Rhaenys mourning Vaemond and watching his body get prepared for his funeral, they were trying to give his death weight and tragedy, but it just wasn't enough... But since there was so much material to cover in only 10 episodes, I guess (like Joffrey Lonmouth, Harwin Strong, Laena and Laenor) it was hard to justify spending so much time with a character who died, and whose death didn't have a seismic shift in the politics of the situation. What could have been, if they'd just had a few more episodes to work with...
Yeah, it's unfortunate and nonsensical that Vaemond's death didn't have a seismic shift in the politics of the situation though.
The world of ice and fire is designed, like a European medieval world and that has a clear inspiration in England that was divided into 7 Kingdoms. All of us readers of the books saw Laenor, Laena, Adam, and Alyn clearly described as having silver hair and purple eyes.
In Baela and Rhaena this is also said directly and this is not racism. Well, Martin imagined a medieval European world since 1995 when Game of Thrones came out and this has nothing to do with racism. In Westeros, discrimination has to do with social ranks, not with races, just as it happened in the Middle Ages and readers asked for absolute loyalty to the literary version. It is not a question of racism but of keeping the story as it is.
Look what happened to "The Witcher" for modifying the original story due to the absurd politicization of popular culture, between the first episode of the third season and the last, it lost 60% of its audience and saw the resignation of the protagonist Henry Cavill for not respecting the original story. The original conflict between Rhaenyra and the Velaryons is not a racial issue.
I usually agree with you on everything, however calling people racist for opposing the politicization of popular culture seems hateful and despotic of you.
I agree 💯💯💯💯. I don't think ASOIAF needs "fixing." But perhaps I'm mistaken.
The thing is that is if this story was so politically unacceptable it should have never been filmed.
Strangely - or not so strangely - the industry does not ignore these stories or turn to material that actually contain original poc characters. The industry embraces them - with the intend to crush and destroy the franchise ultimately with their identity agenda.
And in the end everyone looses but the activists pushing their messages and the directors and heads of studios and networks.
As for this case: first people were all over the moon for Nettles, demanding her to be cast as black when she is described as brown and could be of whatever descent.
Then nobody cared any more because the Velaryons were race bent. And now black people are p*ssed because they realise that they have been effed over COMPLETELY and this series leaves a bad taste in their mouths.
I don't quite see how race swapping the Velaryons was a good thing. Or why the author hasn't still been cancelled for his books being "so racist" or whatever.
Then again, remember that Hellyweird was not ever exactly about 'good' to begin with...
@@saymyname2417 this is literally looking for racism when its not there. Its crazy that blacks cant be villains anymore like wtf
HotD and Got are inherently political stories. But for some 'politics in culture' is black and queer characters existing
You think racism always existed as we know it? That's not the case.
Medieval Europeans actually looked to West Africans as rich and exotic.
And Catherine of Aragon brought over Black ladies-in-waiting and
soldiers and they intermarried with the locals. A few even went to
Scotland with Catherine's sister-in-law Mary Tudor (the Queen-Consort).
It was only with colonialism and the trans-Atlantic slave trade that
Europeans became very anti-Black.
Pulls you out of the story. They’re changing this based on problems in the real world. Because it’s important. We’re not allowed to complain or notice because it isn’t important. The story never addresses any ramifications of the characters changes because it isn’t important. But it was done because it is important to change it. New character is often powerful non-human whose culture does not contain any inherent prejudices and so doesn’t address real issues because they’re not important. But they’re doing it to show powerful characters unaffected by bias because it is important. Head spinning right out of the story…
You think racism always existed as we know it? That's not the case. Medieval Europeans actually looked to West Africans as rich and exotic. And Catherine of Aragon brought over Black ladies-in-waiting and soldiers and they intermarried with the locals. A few even went to Scotland with Catherine's sister-in-law Mary Tudor (the Queen-Consort). It was only with colonialism and the trans-Atlantic slave trade that Europeans became very anti-Black.
@@jasonhaven7170 Europeans became racist in the 1900s when the ideas of racialism and race finally trickled down from the academia into the masses (with help from people like the funny mustache man) Slave traders dont need moral frameworks to justify their business and the lower classes could give less of a fuck anyway they’ve got their own struggles to attend to. So no europeans did not become anti-black because of the slave trade.
to be fair when Viserys named Rhaenyra his heir he created a reason to veiw Vaemond as a villain. because he is saying that a daughter comes before a brother. Therefore Laena and her daughters have a better claim to driftmark then Vaemond does. Rhaenys asks Corlys to name Baela his heir dispite her being a Targaryen and not a Velaryon because she is their granddaughter.
Vaemond isn't just arguing for his claim he could be viewed as usurping the right of both of his gradnieces. And even if they are disqulifed from inheriting driftmark and the crown upheld Vaemond's claim Corlys would just lose his temper and maybe disinherit his brother out of spite. In the few scences they share (only one of which has them talk to each other) they are either ignoring each other or are outright antagonistic towards each other.
And Vaemond stood litle chance of inheriting anyway because later on Corlys has his own bastard sons (He claims they are Laenor's but I think we all know thats not true) and names one of them his heir after the deaths of the strong boys. The second the boys are declared bastards and the girls denied their rights he would do the same thing.
As for the race bending no offence to anyone but not only does it create the probelm it tries to fix but activly makes the issue worse.
I think this would be a better argument if Rhaenyra were arguing for women's rights of inheritance over men's though. Rhaenyra was named Viserys' heir specifically because Daemon was the presumptive heir over her, and even though Rhaenyra was Viserys' daughter, Viserys' decision to name her his heir over Daemon was still a somewhat controversial one. Vaemond's decision obviously takes advantage of the fact that he's a man, but he's not doing anything out of the ordinary by pushing his claim, but more importantly Rhaenyra's argument isn't that Baela or Rhaena should inherit over him, it's that HER illegitimate sons should inherit over him. Similarly, even if Corlys had illegitimate sons, his legitimate brother would 100% have the preceding claim over them. But mostly I find it hard to agree with the idea that Vaemond could be considered the villain in the scenario when Rhaenyra's possible usurpation of Baela and Rhaena's rights is far more egregious than his.
@@HillsAliveYT No Vaemond isn't doing anything unusual and yet everyone at least pays lip service to Viserys naming his daughter heir. Vaemond had his own sons and Corlys names his bastards (because there is no way that laenor is their father. Otherwise he could have actually had children with Rhaenyra. Laenor's not stupid if he could feel atracted to Rhaenyra then her sons would not be bastards.) anyway.
Vaemond's son would also have a claim. assuming the showrunners remember they exist of course. but lets be honest Vaemond was just plain stupid. the second he called Rhaenyra a whore he was marked for death. Daemon would have killed him no matter what and given what happened to Helaena's children because of luke's death, I doubt that Daemon would have any issue killing Vaemond's kids.
Even when Rhaenys agree's to betrothing Jace and Luke to Baela and Rhaena (even though she shouldn't have any authority over the match because the girls are Targaryens not Velaryons, though Daemon probably agreed before Rhaenys was even asked) Vaemond refuses to back down.
Luke expressed no desire to rule so Rhaena would likely do the actual work. Jace would inherit the Iron throne which Vaemond has no real care for. So he is given a way for Velaryon blood to inherit driftmark and then proceds to forfit his tounge (because Viserys was going to have it removed no matter what. calling Vaemond a villain is an overstatement but what he is most certinatly an Idiot.
Even if he had lived Corlys would find some ways around the issue. I could see Vaemond being "escorted" to the wall on dragonback. Both Rhaenys and Daemon would be willing to although if Daemon was given the job Vaemond would likely suffer a fatal "accident".
Corlys is just as stubborn as Viserys and far more prideful. Corlys's ego would have ensured Vaemond would not be heir one way or another. And he really would not care about any decrees that back Vaemond. He should have just kept his head down until Viserys died, or back off after the betrothals and then send someone to kill the strong boys (preferably in hightower colors to implicate them instead of risking discovery. with Daemon's insane accusation of Alicent poisoning Viserys he would buy it.)
Then either way he actually stands a chance of inheriting.
I think this video is a drop from your regular quality. The issue of inclusion in media is a complex one and I don't think this video made a very good point about it.
While I don't think your points are incorrect I feel like what you're really asking for is a different show entirely. The problems you raise are real but their remedy is beyond the scope of any faithful adaptation of a book series that was clearly not interested in addressing representation in fantasy media.
I mean it was mostly written 30 years ago, so... why would it even try to address those concerns? That was not really a pressing matter in the 90s. People could actually coexist back then.
'Clearly not interested in addressing represntatio in fantasy media' he says about a series whose POV characters include: a parapalegic, a human with dwarfism, a tomboy, a gender-confused masculine woman, a eunuch, a foreign priestess, mothers, incest enjoyers, a one handed man, a gay man, bi-sex curious women, abuse victims and sex-role nonconforming males and females. Asoiaf massively explored the diversity of human experience. But it didnt tick the specific box modern racial diversity (white/black/asian), and therefore it fails in your eyes.
L
I'm sorry, I can't help but disagree on this one.
I suppose I'm a media-purist. I don't like race-swapping of any kind. I don't like reinterpretations or reimaginings. What I care about in an adaptation is the vision of the original author.
It's easy to modify someone else's ideas, but it's extremely difficult to bring your own into fruition.
And when everyone starts chiming in with their own interpretations, then the symbology and the mythology of the original work becomes muddled and lost.
The Velaryons had been the foils of the Targaryens. One house was the sea, the other the sky. Water and fire. Their alliance and rivalry was symbolic of the turmoil and short-sightedness that brought down a whole empire. And their conflict not only reflected The Doom, but showed why it was bound to happen.
But now with House of the Dragon, that interpretation has shifted. And with our modern cultural lens, the Valeryons are symbolic of the people that Old Valyria had once oppressed rather than being the perpetrators in their own right.
You see, the symbols and metaphors don't make sense anymore.
And this is a different conversation than diversity in media, yes. For diversity to truly and honestly be present in our media, then we need to uplift the voices of people with different backgrounds and experiences. I don't have a problem with "white" authors writing "white" stories as long as it's true and honest. On the contrary, I think it's entirely inappropriate for white authors to play pretend and write about the experiences of minority groups that they aren't a part of.
I don't see the overwhelming whiteness of fantasy as a problem but a symptom of the problem. The real problem is that so many minority groups are so poorly treated and oppressed that they cannot come forward with their own stories. And that's not a problem with the industry, it's a problem with our entire country and culture as a whole.
i was against race bending from the beginning, and after watching the show i was conflicted a bit, Steve Toussaint played corlys brilliantly, we are supposed to see the Velaryons as the closest thing to Valyrian supremacy after the Targaryens yet vaemond in the throne room scene says "my house survived the doom" like he was a victim instead of being from a valerian family with power and a seat before and after the doom and didn't have anything to do with the doom.
imagine a Targaryen Any Targaryen saying the exact words, u won't hear that victimized tone, which is how the show fails with the velaryons, this is a house too proud and goes against the hightowers and the lannisters and has dragons yet when they race bending it they make them suffer from victim mentality?!
To be fair, i think cutting down the Daenerys savior plotline to just the mhysa moment does a lot of injustice to GRRMs overall vision with that plotline. Clearly, Daenerys is not a savior, and completely fucks up her freeing of the slaves. Thousands of them die following her due to disease, hunger and war. Thematically, I think GRRM is commenting on white savior tropes and colonialism in general and how outsiders don't understand how to run a certain peoples society better than those people, no matter the intentions. In regards to the overall story, I think it's meant to show how Dany will not be viewed as a savior but as a savage foreign invader. She doesn't know what's best for Westeros despite her intentions and the Meereen plotline has forced to embrace Fire and Blood.
There is also that. GRRM's writing isn't without flaw, but GoT did HotD no favors in this department because they essentially took Dany's delusions of grandeur and translated them to screen by treating them as reality. GRRM clearly draws a lot of inspiration from American interventionism for Dany's arc, and GoT basically mimicked standard pro-American propaganda when interpreting her character (which is a whole other can of worms and I think was actually intentional, but completely effed the show because they mimicked propaganda that a big chunk of the audience has been swallowing since birth and waited until the last possible minute to be like "but actually maybe blowing people up isn't saving them" and never did anything to unpack that). In doing so, GoT really put HotD on the back foot because it primed the audience to see the leading characters as outright heroes when they're clearly not written to be.
The fundamental issue here begins with bringing ones own 21st century, progressive, socio-political lense into a feudal, fantasy setting. The social construct of race as we understand it, doesn't seem to exist in this setting. Or if it does, it certainly isn't the same thing that exists in western civilisation today.
The Velaryons aren't black characters. Because the construct of being black (or indeed white, or any of the other racial categories that we, as 21st century westerners, have invented), simply doesn't exist in the universe of ice and fire. The race of the Velaryons is Valarian, the Valeryons are Valerians who have dark skin and are played, in this series by actors who are black.
In spite of any political biases we may have, it's essential to remember when having these discussions, something which very often gets lost before we've even begun. These worlds, these characters and these stories exist to create a compelling narrative for people to be entertained by. Their purpose is not to support or disseminate anyone's socio-political viewpoint. When you start making changes based on your own, real world political leanings, however well intentioned. You replace story with propaganda. You may like this propaganda, you may support the messaging behind it, but propaganda it remains. Propaganda simply isn't conducive to good story telling, in fact it's often antithetical to it.
I understand the temptation to use culture to propagate ones own politics, it probably seems like a good idea until you consider that your point of view may not always be the one that culture is being used to spread. The American Christian right made a similar bid in the 90s to be arbiters of what should and shouldn't be in shows and movies, rather like the progressive left is doing today.
If you can see that Sam and Frodo casually agreeing with one another that 'abortion is murder' every time they stop to make camp, would have been inappropriate and made the LotR trilogy less enjoyable, overall. Then I invite you in turn to consider the possibility that making demands of story tellers to become activists on your behalf, may not be the unmitigated good that you think it is.
It's a feudal fantasy setting created by a writer from the 21st century who has outwardly said that he is progressive and injected a great deal of political content into the world he created though.
@@HillsAliveYT Oh hey, thanks for taking the time to read. I like your videos. I'm big on the fAegon Blackfyre theory, myself. But I really like your take on him being an actual Targaryen, I think that one's my fave of yours.
You're right, there's loads of politics in the universe of Ice and Fire. But it's the politics that exist in that world. The politics of marriage, alliances, succession etcetc it all belongs there. There's a big difference between that being present and making alterations to the story, casting and themes to satisfy your own irl desire for socio-political progress. That's just not why Westeros exists.
George can be progressive, he can hold whatever views he wants to ofc. But inserting that messaging into the world he's created to tell bleak themed stories of conquest, schemes, dragons and incest would involve making drastic changes to the grounded and gritty world he's created. It would be a very different universe and it certainly wouldn't be the world i fell in love with anymore.
I understand the temptation. The people who hold the reigns of the culture's media seem to share (broadly at least) your views on identity etc. So it's great for you... if you assume this power will be held by people that share your views, forever. That you'll never have a show you love spoiled for you because you have to make a choice between trying to ignore Frodo and Sam pushing their anti abortion rhetoric and simply not watching. It might seem unlikely to you now, but how many things have happened in the world in the last 8 years or so that you'd never have have believed likely had I suggested them in 2015?
George can have his views, you can have yours and I bear neither any ill will for it. My point it simply that shows are first and foremost for story telling. Propaganda makes them worse. I love Westeros, it has the potential to be timeless and I truly believe it deserves better then being a megaphone for whoever has the most sway at the studio, for their cause du jour.
Sam and Frodo would totally think that because lotr is fundamentally catholic work ;) cry more
@@darrenvandam7866 I would add that even if by modern standards the Westerosi are mostly white they have prejudices along cultural lines that make sense in universe, not out of universe. The people of the North thinks of the south as a different type of person, they are not part of the "us" to the point that after decades and producing many children who are easily accepted Catelyn Stark is still something of an outsider. People identify along cultural and not racial grounds. In the UK, muted as it is by the modern day, there is a distinction between scots, welsh and english people, let alone some specific counties viewing people from elsewhere as outsiders. A non-yorkshireman living in yorkshire is an outsider to a degree.
I have few good things to say about GRRM as a worldbuilder (he is a good storyteller, though I dislike his actual prose personally) but in this area he did something quite correct. Ethnically different people appear in places that make sense for the characters and there is diversity within each ethnic group on cultural lines that people really care about.
This is SO DUMB omg
Everyone has their own views and biases, conscious or not, and narratives are built around those of every writer.
Lotr is extremely Christian and based in the views of Tolkein, God/Eru illuvatar Is literally implied to have killed gollum and destroyed the ring, yk the main quest of the entire series.
What a vapid world you live In Where stories are empty and meaningless
This show had some casting choices I did not like, regardless of skin color... I just want Hollywood to stop trying to make a fantasy world fitting our 2023 socially accepted reality. People like fantasy stories because they are NOT the reality... Why must it all be fucked up? They already fucked up rings of power and the witcher with the shitfuckery, so I am actually quite happy with the outcome of house of the dragon. I am afraid if we ask for any change it will just be ruining everything at this point. But in any case, there is a writer strike, so lets just hope they even finish season 2 in the upcoming year at all.
I'm black, so I don't mind it. Also, it is easier to identify the families with everyone having white hair. Especially, with how excellently they cast the people. The Hightowers look alike. The Strongs look alike. The Velaryons stand out. My issue is how meek the Velaryons are. I need someone to avenge Vaemond 😅
Vaemond granddaughter is going to marry Agoen the three of house targaryen
@@krushnaji4940 Those characters are all White in the books
@@massacolonel5950 I know that
The way in which Corlys specifically is presented is weird as hell, like at the start he is very aggressively after the Iron Throne and is a bit of a wild card, but then when it's convenient he's like "well Vaemond died because he's a dummy and gee isn't Luke adorbs so why not give him Driftmark." The notion that the man who basically rebelled against Viserys for rebuffing him then gave no fucks when Daemon and Rhaenyra may have murdered his son and heir is just completely nonsensical.
The diversity is wonderful. But the Velaryons are of Valyrian descent like the Targaryens. Which means they were all about slavery. So for the show to portray the Velaryons as black and have them be proud of their heritage, the same heritage that had a huge slave culture is.... quite the choice.
I take issue with the idea that Vaemond was villainized for not cooperating with his own family's usurpation.
Vaemond's whinging about "Valaryon blood" was entirely self-serving.
The fact that Luke was betrothed to Rhaena puts that to rest as a legitimate concern. Vaemond just wanted to be Lord of the Tides himself.
I also don't see any racial subtext to the "Laenor faking his death" plot point. If there is one, it is overshadowed by the overt TEXT of classism, printed in bold text.
The guard who was murdered to facilitate the ruse wasn't expendable because he was black. He was expendable because he wasn't part of one of the handful of families who actually matter, like all of the poor NPC's who were trampled in the Dragonpit.
Explaining that pawns can be black or white to someone who virtue signals for brownie(haha) points or only see themselves as over/under melanated is like screaming into the void... They work so hard for the Reach they strain to hear any other viewpoint or will fuse all other viewpoints to fit into their red string conspiracy board.
Well the unfortunate reality of Westeros is that men are far more powerful than women though, so having Driftmark pass through a female bloodline would be considered a loss to most families. Plus, the entire origin story of this era of Westerosi history is driven by the fact that Viserys was chosen over Rhaenys despite the fact that her claim was arguably better. While Rhaena could have theoretically had a better claim, the likelihood that she would have been passed over for a man is actually pretty high, I mean again one of the foundational aspects of the Dance is that Rhaenyra was officially named as Viserys' heir despite the fact that Daemon assumed he was/most people in Westeros would have expected him to take precedence over Rhaenyra. Vaemond was undoubtedly being slightly self-serving, but his behavior and expectations were completely on target for the standards of his era.
@@HillsAliveYT No, they weren't. Laenor acknowledged the boys as his own, and that should have been enough for anyone with half a brain in a medieval setting. Maybe try looking up for acknowldging bastards worked in European history in particular, since it's where American bs issues that don't belong there were shoehorned in. Your culture war ruins everything. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_bastard
@@HillsAliveYTRhaenys’ claim was not arguably better. At the time of the great council she was already married to Corlys. If she was made queen that would mean that upon her death the throne would pass from house targaryen to house Velaryon. Old king jace would have to be really stupid to let that happen.
I hate how most modern shows use inclusion as an excuse for there lazyness, you can make a diverse fantasy world and have it make sense (the A song of Ice and Fire books actually do it quite well) but most of the time the entertainment industry just swaps the races and calls it a day. For example one of the Shows I liked was Spartacus and had a major character who was black, it made sense and helped show just how large a reach/how they viewed race back in ancient Rome. Like would It have been so hard to come up with some original Summerset Islander characters?
Praise Oenomaus RIP
@@lordofmankind33 Praise Doctore
I think it's racist to race swap characters race,i mean the world of game of thrones is kind of like ours, where Westeros is Europe and essos is middle east etc..., race swapping the velaryon feels forced and ridiculous, i hate the idea of blind inclusion that doesn't make sense and is always forced down our throats
Even if we go off of the theory that daemon (Alyssa’s brother, not her grandfather who died fighting the vale fleet) and later Corwyn Velaryon married summer islanders and that’s why velaryons are black, circumventing the massive issues with Alyssa and valaena, there’s also the line in the books about princess daella crying when she meets a summer Islander since she’s never seen someone with dark skin before. There’s no way that after so many years at court, princess daella has never met a Velaryon,
To be honest, I am a little bit surprised at how simplistic and one-sided this view of race oppression is. Hill dosent usually fit into a clear mould - but this is a carbon copy of a Crit-Race Theory position. The problems I have with that conception of race-issues makes this discussion not land for me.
LOL well honestly I know absolutely nothing about critical race theory, but I have a degree in film criticism and race analysis has been a cornerstone of film theory for literally like half a century at least. I hear people complain about critical race theory a lot but if this is what that is then it's just a rebrand of a critical and analytical point of view that has existed within the film theory world since before I and probably you were even alive.
@@HillsAliveYT That is true. What calls itself the 'critical' perspective began to dominate the academies in the 70s with Foucaults Post-structuralism/ Postmodernism. He branched from the prior work of the Frankfurt school, who themselves branched off Marx - so yes it has a long genealogy, and does indeed rule Universities, and has been advancing from the Universities into the mainstream since before we were born.
While I have no real issues with it, I do think it would of been better for them to bring in an OC character or characters if they wanted more POC to exist. Like they could of had a prince of princess of the summer isles as a guest at the court or an exiled noble from Yi Ti. There were a number of better options that they could of chosen but there were also worse things they could of done.
Bringing black characters into the show is f’ing dumb and is just plain pandering and propaganda. There’s no other way around it.
You down playing this absurdity and gas lighting everyone in the process (that there’s nothing alarming here) only contributes further to this cultural genocide and erasure.
The video is going along in such an academic tone, and then bam "since the Blacks are the protagonists..."
Caught me the fuck off guard lol
When they are... not.
Yeah, definitely phrased poorly given the subject matter. “Since Rheanyra and her loyalists are the protagonists” would have sounded less jarring.
But I guess what can ya really do when the two teams in the show are the Blacks and the Greens.
I think the patchwork of past racist action is more of an obsession. Racism was common place among all cultures. It’s just cause we are descended from a European colony that we only consider whiteness as a perpetual racist trope. Both fictional and reality I guess, based off this video
You think racism always existed as we know it? That's not the case.
Medieval Europeans actually looked to West Africans as rich and exotic.
And Catherine of Aragon brought over Black ladies-in-waiting and
soldiers and they intermarried with the locals. A few even went to
Scotland with Catherine's sister-in-law Mary Tudor (the Queen-Consort).
It was only with colonialism and the trans-Atlantic slave trade that
Europeans became very anti-Black.
Sidenote: Luke being white presenting (if he were Leonor's) is actually exactly how he should look since hes 3/4ths yt. I'm biracial and my daughters father is yt, you never know she has a black mother 😂
Sorry white presenting? The only way someone like that wouldn't be considered white is under a absurd one blood rule
That, thank you! Genetics are not like mixing paint 😅
@@chrissiek8706 the fact that he called him white presenting is absurd racist stuff
Exactly! One of the things that bothers me is how they make the multiracial characters so mono racial. Laena and Laenor pretty much look black to me and its ridiculous how Baela and Rhaena look pretty much full black when they are mainly white at this point. Its a very white American one drop perspective that any mixture of African ancestry is visualized as being The Black One, instead of recognizing their multi-racial heritage and more then likely racial ambiguous or even white passing appearance.
HotD is a mess.
How?
@@discobroccoli198 Too long to explain.
@@perseusveil9376 Sure it is💀
@@discobroccoli198 I'm not going to explain all the issues I find in fucking 10 hours of season just to one random nobody in a comment under a video that already explains some of them lmao are you dense?
Hot take: there’s nothing wrong with a fantasy series modeled after medieval Europe having a mostly white cast.
I'm glad the LOTR movies were done 20 years ago and not today. Dear lord they'd have been ruined.
You think racism always existed as we know it? That's not the case.
Medieval Europeans actually looked to West Africans as rich and exotic.
And Catherine of Aragon brought over Black ladies-in-waiting and
soldiers to England and they intermarried with the locals. A few even went to
Scotland with Catherine's sister-in-law Mary Tudor and married local Scottish nobles. (the Queen-Consort).
It was only with colonialism and the trans-Atlantic slave trade that
Europeans became very anti-Black.
I’m black and I agree with this message. If Hollywood really cared about diversity there would be an effort to take stories written by and about non white people to adapt into movies and tv shows. But their efforts at diversity are shallow so the only ground they are really willing to give in the casting. There are tons of fantasy novels by black people written with black characters but those get totally ignored in favor of race swapping white characters in white stories. It’s dumb.
@@jessn5677 totally
@@jasonhaven7170 lmao yes yes few womans and two brown guys means nobility was nibbas, lmao
I agree more or less with this analysis, but I think one piece to remember is that a hallmark of the world building in these stories is the portrayal of goodness and villainy in all of them, the complexity of motive, and the role that point of view plays in what counts as honorable. So there really aren’t clear good guys and bad guys, case in point is how easy it was to sympathize with Cersei’s motives. The way Maggy’s prophecy slowly ate into her brain to create her paranoia, we saw for ourselves she was basically doing a dare with her friend, Maggy came back at her arrogance as a kind of eff- you, and this inflicted a lifetime of fearfulness that shaped her. Was she cruel, vindictive, ruthless, etc? Yes, but was this understandable in a human way? Also yes. So I still think it’s fair to analyze it the way this video did, but I would also say it’s important to read the fullness of each characters humanity back into them because magnifying the good guy bad guy dynamic just because our world is super polarized, might be reflecting our problem back at them. Representation matters, unintentional bias in storytelling matters, but in the end, these are not problems that art and imagination and entertainment can solve by themselves. We have to solve them ourselves, in real life, and what the art is reflecting back to us is ultimately just another piece of information that can help us do that. Thank you so much for this break down!!
Loved this video cause you addressed every concern and thought I had regarding the racial implications of Rhaenyra stealing Driftmark with all its wealth from apparently the only black noble family in Westeros. And Targaryen supremacy always rang alarm bells for me and actual POC echoing it constantly confuses me still. Great video and still so fascinating
I really like what I've seen of season one, but I am really worried they'll ruin season two. That plot point of Rhaenyra faking Laenor's death, done just so the audience can continue to root for her, is really awkward and disjointed from the rest of the story. If they try to make Blood and Cheese look like an accident, where Rhaenyra actually didn't want anyone to get hurt but things got out of hand, it would kill the show for me. It's a mixed bag, however, because I like how the show made Alicent and Aemond more sympathetic than they were in Fire and Blood, and I even like how Rhaenyra is more sympathetic, to an extent. Its just that if the show refuses to commit to characters taking decisive, ruthless action, the plot going forward is going to completely fall apart. Anyway, another excellent video from you, keep up the great work.
It was done to frankly avoid being blacklisted for killing off a gay character.
Yeah, I agree with the other commenter in that they were just trying to avoid the kill your gays trope but did it in a completely ass backwards way that makes the whole unfolding narrative squirrelly af.
I think it was a mistake to kill off Vaemond in the show, at least this early on. I know the idea of deviating from the source material can strike a nerve with certain subsets of the fandom, but I liked the idea of Rhaenys siding with the Blacks to be such a divisive course of action that it ends up splitting house Vaelaryon in two --- with Vaemond and his nephews/sons/whomever following the Greens into the civil war.
well, this would be a better change, than Rhaenys commiting war crime and noone caring about it.
Yeah agreed, I think his character had an important point of view and there was a lot more to do with it beyond him calling Rhaenyra a whore and getting his head lopped off.
In the books, Rhaenyra feeds the 'traitor' to Syrax. He isn't in the books after the Driftmark crisis
@@stelmaria8991True, but there were Vaemond’s sons and the silent five
There is nothing to "Fix", this series was created inspired on medieval times in Europe where diversity wasn't a big thing, everyone looked European because, they were in Europe!
I think instead of trying to "Fix" something created by a man who was inspired by a point in history, there should be more creators of color or any color, who can create points of view from other races. GRRM is a white old man and will create points of views he identifies with, is not his fault that more POC aren't creating works where they can express their experiences.
I think racebending is just lazy and putting a bandaid on a bigger issue, they do it to make themselves feel good instead of tackling the root of the problem of why aren't more young POC inspired to created works where they can share their cultures, I'm Mexican and I had to wait till a white man, Mel Gibson, created apocaypto to see a descent representation of pre colonial Mexico, sure the Aztecs were protrayed as the opressors but that was only the truth.
You think racism always existed as we know it? That's not the case.
Medieval Europeans actually looked to West Africans as rich and exotic.
And Catherine of Aragon brought over Black ladies-in-waiting and
soldiers to England and they intermarried with the locals. A few even went to
Scotland with Catherine's sister-in-law Mary Tudor and married local Scottish nobles. (the Queen-Consort).
It was only with colonialism and the trans-Atlantic slave trade that
Europeans became very anti-Black.
@@jasonhaven7170 I didn't say anything about them being racist, racism for them was different than from us because of the lack of diversity in their daily life, you're chosing a few scattered events in the whole history of the middle ages, I haven't heard anything of what you just said and don't know if it's actually true but if it is it's just something a queen did and had no major impact in the demographics, it wasn't until the african slave trade that people of different colors were more present.
@@mariobro3351 It is true, and a large group of White Yorkshire men have West African genes in their Y-chromosome going back to the 1600s.
I was wondering how the succession works for the Velaryons. Vaemond said he should be the next heir but Baela's candidacy wasn't even mentioned during the trial, which means that the Velaryons used the system of succession basen on the great council of 101, rather than the andal succession system. Why? Because both this families took part in the great council and after that they adopted the full male primogeniture system ? Kinda interesting
4:58 there wasn't a problem
Do you really think that black people not being present in a fantasy world is a problem?
How is that bad?
How is that hurting anyone?
Why cant people just create art the way they want?
We are not talking about a constitution here, this is a book. Why should the author care about this nonsense?
I dont why they inserted the Corlys as a black man. Everyone knows R martin was mimicking medieval and victorian europe in his fantasy. It would have made more since to portay the black man as a differnt ethic group weather he be ally or enemy or someone in between wouldnt matter. They are trying to bend race or say it doesnt matter when in fact race and ethicity and kingdom is what game of throne is about itherwise all.of house valyrian wouldnt have whitish hair and elvin looks except the black character black people dont have a problem.watching european cinema, asian, or african cinema. As does anybody else likwise. It just could have been dome different and more logical to broaden the world of game of thrones in a more believable manner that doesn require suspension of logic
When you state that ‘whiteness’ is a problem to be solved you completely lose me. It shows you are coming from an identity politics perspective rather than a merit-based perspective. Here’s how you could rephrase :
‘ Most fantasy is written by Europeans, or the descendants of Europeans about European history for a European cultural audience. While that is not a problem, it would be amazing to see writers of various national backgrounds, reimagine non-European history of a variety of countries in the form of stories and shows. Here are some examples of fantasy novels, written by people of a variety of national backgrounds, and here are some examples of lesser-known mythologies from a variety of continents that could provide ample material to create new fantasy stories’.
Well said. It's all so tiresome, it's only ever expected that Europeans need to race swap their characters, we wouldn't dream of demanding this from any other peoples, in fact it would be seen as racist to do so, no one complains when enjoying South Korean cinema that the cast it "Too Korean".
@@serpentini8137 True. Now someone is going to chime in and say 'But its fantasy!'.
I agree. I don't get why it's suppose to be such a great thing to just change European stories to be more diverse. There are plenty of other mythologies and histories to draw inspiration from. Instead of people complaining that things like Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings are too white. Why not be inspired to create something based on other cultures. Seems like the people who talk about supremacy a lot, seem to perpetuate the idea that European stuff is better, and that changing these stories to be more inclusive, is a better alternative than creating new ones inspired by other cultures. Which seems pretty hypocritical.
Notice, they do not bleet at China or Japan to swap their characters in their all-Asian shows with black ones. Interesting.
@@blissinchains When I watch korean shows there isnt a single black person. Or white person for that matter. I am not personally represented at all. And thats ok because its not my culture.
I think the argument of certain people being portrayed as the good or bad guys is mute. Yes people root for the blacks, even when they do morally wrong stuff. But thats kind of the whole point, there are factions, you pick one and stick with them, even tho neither faction is morally perfect. Dividing the series between ''the blacks, clear protagonists'' and ''the greens, clear antagonists'' is simplifying it too much.
I dont think the Valeryons that align with the blacks are portrayed as better morally than Vaemond, i dont think annyone considered Vaemond a straight up villain. And if we have to live in a world were you know the one black family will be on the morally good side and will never be treated unfairly because that would create tension in the real world youre losing the unpredictability and moral greyness that makes this setting great.
this reminds me of an interview from GRRM. Hes a white man who grew up on stories like robinhood, and europes history. So yes his world and story will more than likely have multiple white people. the world of ice and fire has multiple, multiple questionary actions, and norm and its disturbing when you sit back and think about it, and nobody needs to bend their backs to add us to this story and world thats based on europe.
I do agree with some of your points, but any point you make pertaining to reality and how audiences view these fictional changes are completely undermined by the reality of institutional racism, namely affirmative action.
Also, the only reason I tolerated the race-bending in HotD is because GRRM is still alive and probably signed off on it. In most other cases, it's a blatant display of cultural appropriation.
Loving how based the comments are.
I mean... the cultures around the world and their history are so diverse and worthy of making a fantasy story surrounding them. I just can't fathom why the hell no one wants to write a story inspired on them. Why not a story about a fantastical realm in the desert inspired by the Middle East? Or a fantasy setting with Indian or Nepalese people? The potential for other stories is limitless. I think the true problem here is that the world is still overly eurocentric.
There are plenty.
We just do not read them on the West.
im pretty sure if you lived in Asia youd think the world is Asia centric
I think a lot of issue there is simple language. If you want to read Journey to the West, you either have to trust a translation, or learn a new language. Learning a new language, and then being able to read that language beyond speaking it, is a time consuming and arduous process that most people don't have the time or effort to do. As to the prevalence of eurocentric fantasy, the entire english speaking world has been lauding Tolkien's Lord of the Rings for the last century and as such, the majority of fantasy in the english speaking world takes heavy inspiration from The Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings, of course, took heavily from the culture and myths of Tolkien's native England. His background in philology led to him drawing heavily on Anglo-Saxon legend, Celtic folklore, and the Norse Sagas to form his own mythology of sorts. This led to his works being vaguely familiar to those of English culture while still bringing about their own wonder and mystery. So now, the modern idea of the fantasy genre in the west is heavily tied to Tolkien's masterpiece and its derivative works. It makes logical sense looking back at how that came to be. Then also consider that commercially available mass media devices such as telephones, radio, television, and now even the internet were all principally developed in the English speaking west and Europe, its understandable why the cultural impact of Eurocentric fantasy is so prevalent across the world. Compounded even further by English becoming a sort of lingua franca on the internet and that media powerhouses like the BBC and Hollywood being from English speaking nations.
Despite all this however, there are other major cultural impacts on the entire world from outside the European cultured nations such as the Hong Kong film industry(until recently at least), Bollywood, Japan's animation industry, and the Philippine's animation industry. These non-European cultural juggernauts have absolutely inspired many people to learn the native language of each industry to better enjoy their product and to better translate them for speakers of other languages.
Overall I find it absolutely fascinating how language and history are intrinsically linked and how much language has influenced us as humans and we as humans have influenced language across the board.
Bro go to asia you’ll have a hard time not finding asian based fiction get a grip
I’m black and I love GOT so my biggest annoyance is always going to be people who just can’t get over it - that said… I never asked for this.
Representation doesn’t mean change stories it means tell MORE stories! Since 90% of all content is just remakes and prequels and retellings we never bother to just make more stories and it’s exhausting. But we’re milking the shit out of this franchise so give us more about the people from the Summer Isles and Narth and the free cities and even Essos. Those are worthy landscapes to explore and would make great television.
More stories > changing existing ones
Yeah the summer isles seem like a cool place to tell stories about too with their massive ships, gold heart bows, and sex positive religion
What about all of the other GOT/HOTD characters that don’t fit their description in the books?
Everything else aside, the race bending of the Velaryons (plus a few other things) really outlines, highlights and proves the Strong boys status as bastards as well as adding a certain nuance and detail in the buildup to the dance.
In the books, the Strongs are still obviously Strongs, but Rhaenys had dark hair and Baratheon features so people could run defence. However with the Velaryons being black and Rhaenys having silver hair for the sake of audience recognition, the Strong boys are so obviously not Laenor's to every single person who sees them.
It turns the situation from an argument, into an 'emperors got no clothes' situation where everybody of importance is just ignoring it for the sake of court politics. Rhaenyra literally gaslight and gatekept her children into inheriting Driftmark, over the other Velaryons and none of the mainstream audience cares at all. I personally would have thought a white woman using her power and privilege to steal a black families wealth and power would have caused more uproar on twitter or reddit, but no, everyone seems to be too busy making posts fangirling about Rhaenyra and Daemon and cheering whenever a dragon flies overhead.
Vaemond is the only one to point this out because once again, his family is getting screwed in public and no one cares, in fact, they are cheering them on. So he goes out telling everyone that the emperor has no clothes on. These children are bastards, and they are not Velaryons, and he will not stand for it.
Vaemond's actor Wil Johnson gives an interview which highlights this perfectly. ruclips.net/video/hZhmEjHVpjY/видео.html
There is zero nuance. They need to hammer an audience they think is stupid over the head with "since we don't think white people are easy to tell apart from their parents. HAVE THESE THREE WHITE KIDS WHO ARE CLEARLY NOT THIS BLACK GUY'S KIDS."
Wil Johnson's interview about this was hilarious, it killed me dead.
Vaemond anger was justified, yet he too was trying to take away Baela’s claim. Laena and her children have a greater claim to driftmark than he does as a daughter comes before a brother in terms of normal succession. I never thought he was villainous , he is trying to subplant the true heir to driftmark and honestly it’s ok that he does that because Rhaenyra is doing the same thing. The show is hypocritical in portraying him as a villain for that and Rhaenyra as someone innocent. I do agree with that.
Vaemond isn’t evil or good, he is a complex man who loves his house but also himself. The show failed to portray him properly.
Normally I love your videos, but I really think you missed the mark with this one.
No they didn't. They made plenty of good points about how casting black people as being proud of their Valyrian heritage (which had a culture of slavery) is problematic.
@@Emma88178 are we ignoring the fact that historically some African tribes and states had slavery long before they contacted Europeans?
Slavery has been around since the dawn of humanity. More races and cultures have participated in it than not, throughout known history. I think 'western' culture as a whole is the least racist of them all these days. Try traveling abroad to Japan or China, India (which has a specific caste system built into their religion that can be viewed nearly as vehemently as slavery through many perspectives). Libya is selling black people into slavery today. There are middle eastern countries where women aren't allowed to go to college or even drive. Compared to all that as a whole, I find this Hollywood stuff centered around this to be Hollyweird, meaningless virtue signaling. It is constantly kept in the media to further divide our populace, and keep our eyes off of the bigger picture.
@@DearAphrodite Unfortunately, there are more people on Earth enslaved today than at any other point in history.
It's not about ignoring history, it's about how ethnocentrism can unintentionally or unknowingly impact the way media is created or interpreted. You're completely right that slavery is not a situation that uniquely applies to white people enslaving black people, but the problem is that the people who created the books/show and a huge portion of the people who are watching it are most familiar with slavery within that context, so the way in which black characters and slave culture is addressed within the fantasy world is still impacted by the reality of the creators' experiences and is still impacted by the cultural context that a metric fuckton of the audience grew up with.
They could’ve honestly just said that Corlys’s mom was summer islander. Or that some part of the Velaryon family more recently married some summer islanders and it wouldn’t be an issue. I honestly don’t know why they didn’t do that then it also would’ve given them the opportunity to explore more of the cultures that George created in his series.
My biggest issue is them not making Rhaenys hair black. This would literally fix everything. You can keep the black characters and still have ambiguity with Rhaeneras kids. Hbo made it blatantly racist by not doing so.
1:22 *NO IT DOES NOT*
Because when moden media "fix it " they make it worse for P.C. box ticking.
i thought they changed the family cos Steve Toussaint nailed his audition
It’s funny (sad) that prior to the release of the show reactionaries were screaming about wokeness and the horrors of race swapping, yet when the show finally comes out and the actors nail their roles suddenly that conversation gets swept under the rug as if for months those same people who are now enjoying the series weren’t crying about how it was woke and therefore bad for having a black actor play a white character.
I guess my point is that if Steve Toussaint hadn’t knocked his role out of the park then the conversation would have stayed that he’d been hired because of “woke ideology”.
Thank you for coming to my TEDtalk.
I’ve always seen Rhaenyra and Co as the villains, honestly. Vaemond and Aemond are martyrs as far as I can tell. I think they only made the Velaryons black to make it easier for the audience to tell the Strongs are bastards tbh.
Are you saying you see the blacks as villains? And not the greens?
@@diegobromfield
Both the Greens and the Blacks are villainous, but Rhaenyra is arguably more villainous due to the fact that, within the world of Westeros, she is trying to usurp the birthright of one of her subordinates based on a blatant lie that she is happy to pretend is real.
Basically, she’s a diet Cersei in this situation,
@@catherinecao4810 Usurp? You do realize she is the legitimate heir right? What is she usurping? Both sides did bad things throughout the course of the dance but lets not make mistakes and lose sight of the facts. Allicent/ Aegon's side of the family are the ones who started the war & eventually doomed their whole clan. And all that aside, Aegon 2 is the worse choice out of the two either way.
@@diegobromfield I was talking about the Driftwood Throne.
And Rhaenyra’s husband is the real problem. If she married anyone else other than Daemon, less people would rebel
I remember reading the tweets of a black #HotD fan and #ASOIAF content creator, saying that she was very disturbed by Vaemond's execution. That seeing a black man being executed by a white family for rightly defending his rights was triggering. Although I didn't experience that when I first watched that scene, I completely understand why others would. It makes complete sense. And yet, that person was lambasted on Twitter for "over reacting" and "making everything about race". The fact that some fans couldn't appreciate that reading is, IMO, a testament to the show failing to do race bending right. Hollywood still has a long way to go.
Yeah, obviously a lot of people think that this kind of criticism is unwarranted or unnecessary, but if the creators care enough about representation in their content to change it then this kind of feedback seems pretty relevant.
Yeah my reaction when this happened was " Daemon is a hero?" Vaemond told no lies, but i guess calling Rhaenyra a loose woman was completely over the top.
They shouldn't have changed the race in the first place! Yes, it's cool, but it does create problems.
i mean, if they did feel that way, wich i can understand, i dont see how its a criticism of the show, one of the many interpretations of the scene can be the Velaryons bein opressed by the Targaryens, Daemon is hardly a good guy anyways, so saying youre triggered by that is like saying youre scared during a horror movie, its kind of the point. It can both be seen as a badass or evil action or both depending on how you look at it.
To add to that, imagine how bad it would be if that criticism was ''corrected'' now youd know that anytime a black character appears he will never be unfairly killed by a white character. Just how in alot of movies, you know that the bad guy is the only one not using an apple phone because part of apples contract is that they cant be seen being used by the antagonist, it would deminish the immersion.
@@aguspuig6615 I want to clarify something. The person who said she was disturbed by the scene didn't say or imply that it was wrong for the show to do that. She read the books, and simply shared her feelings about how that scene felt to her at the moment. It's the reaction of those who read her tweet that's messed up. Nobody chooses what upsets or disturbs them.
The judgement on the show having failed for not doing race bending right because of this incident comes from me. Nobody said minority characters can't die or be villains. Absolutely nobody. Of course, they can. The key is to do representation right, and I agree with OP that #HotD did not go far enough in HOW they executed that decision, because they didn't appreciate the implication of what it meant in a larger context.
I think its a far easier problem than people and pseudointellectuals think it is, for one diversity in europe didnt really exist for nearly all of its history, except for some countries who had colonies 99.9% of people where what americans would call white, so in a fantasy tale based on medieval europe ppl shouldnt be surprised that the majority are white, what does surprise me is that americans expect europe to have the racial make up of modern NY, like the velaryon army is shown to have, second having such diverse populations in a prequel when the series his rightfully portrayed as nearlly all white creates a sinister suggestion that people dont talk a lot about, it suggests that in the time between prequels and series they had going a lot of ethnic cleansing and eugenics, third the white washing of characters and the backlash to blackwashing characters is definetly overblown (in the second case the claim that its the racists doing it), for the first point, in the majority of race swapped characters it either doesnt affect changing the race of the character because its not important to begin with or it comes from a genuine american ignorance to know the difference between race-ethnicity-nationality-mother language and for the second point is mostly used by subpar productions to run product protection by the media, who will gladly write about anything mildly controversial, fourth, the use of pseudo intellectual words like "white presenting".
In essence, is it fair to change a characters race in media? It depends, is it a historical documentary? Then no. Does it make sense in the internal story and belivable? Then probably yes
You think racism always existed as we know it? That's not the case.
Medieval Europeans actually looked to West Africans as rich and exotic.
And Catherine of Aragon brought over Black ladies-in-waiting and
soldiers to England and they intermarried with the locals. A few even went to
Scotland with Catherine's sister-in-law Mary Tudor and married local Scottish nobles. (the Queen-Consort).
It was only with colonialism and the trans-Atlantic slave trade that
Europeans became very anti-Black.
@@jasonhaven7170 you mean a infinitesimal number of people from an already small sociat cast from a particularly small number of years? Ah that must mean tha medieval london had the same percentage of indians as modern london
@@NovaSoldier I was talking about Black people. And there have been Black people in London since the 1500s.
@@jasonhaven7170 yeah, and if you read my comment you would understand that having a miniscule number of black people that probably dont even exceed the double diggits doesnt mean that england, much less europe was diverse in the 16th century, infact, it just confirms what i said in the oc, that 99.9% of the european population would be what americans call white, infact, black people in europe have had historically such low numbers that are statically irrelevant
@@NovaSoldier And the Velaryons constitute a dozen people in a country of millions.
I will start this by saying I absolutely love your content but you starting off by saying that white washing is problematic, which I will actually agree with but then to turn around and say that it’s fine and justified in the reverse is just nonsensical you can’t hold these two positions while it’s still making logical sense, but I will agree that changing house, Valerian actually does fit because it gives some noticeable differences that can be pointed out when people question the legitimacy of Rhaenyras children
It was so lazy if they want to race bend them they could have stated that Corlys mother was a summer islander not just make them black and not explain anything
Grrm has compared Dany in Mereen to the US in the middle east so I think he did intend for it to be seen that way
Yes it has these subtextual issues….but I think that’s in spirit of the original point of these stories GRRM is telling. How WRONG this system was.
Do I think the writers intended it? Mostly, no. But I think it fits the theme. Eventually the blacks side won’t be presented so heroically. I hope at least. That would provide that dark undertone upon rewatch.
But the writers should have considered the full implications of this change for sure.
ACC to me it was a good idea to make them black because the idea that rhaenra and her children are usurping their cousins and uncle's right makes sense and looks real
This idea that it’s somehow a problem that the world of a song of ice and fire is largely white centric is nonsense. The tire story is pretty much based around feudal Europe, which I understand this is a fantasy series but it’s how the author chose to read it. It’s not like they based their entire story around Africa or pre-colonial North America or Asia, and made it white centric with that opinion I guess you also think that Tolkien’s work was also to white
See, I always read the Velaryons as being something to very, very clearly communicate the Strong boys were bastards. Having seen some casual viewers of GoT still be confused in Season 4 that Joffrey was a bastard, I think this was the primary motivation. Literally "giving a reason" for them to be black. Because, on top of the casual viewers not picking up on it, you would have the ASOIAF RUclips community asking questions like "Is the Blood Magic DYING?!" if the Velaryons had been white. "Oh, are the dragons getting smaller because the blood rituals are somehow getting weaker?", "Are the Targaryens losing their silver hair after genetic drift?!" and so on and so forth, with that bit of lore currently shrouded in mystery. Then you have the fan community waging a war against itself for something whose answer was actually much more simple.
And while that sounds silly, GoT was eviscerated by its own fanbase by the time it ended. It was the biggest thing in media, and then poof. Dried up. And that was the most recent, and most informative, experience on the writers room. And while we could have just made the Strong family black, and the Strong boys by extension, it introduces similar issues by making it appear as if Westeros is ready to throw down because a slightly-darker skinned Targaryen will one day sit on the throne (and admittedly make the plausible deniability even weaker for Rhaenyra.) Race bending Rhaenyra would not work towards that goal, either, muddying up the clarity they wanted to convey.
I think ultimately the choice came down to that Roman Empire-inspired reference for the Freehold, as race did not really play a part in Rome, as we know there were, what we would today consider, black Roman emperors, Arab Roman Emperors, and, adjacently, homosexual Roman Emperors, and that cosmopolitan root made it the more "grounded" choice.
Good video. I think the lesson here is that you can really only do so much with a bad foundation.
If you really want to promote diversity, you have to promote more stories told by people from outside the kinds of hegemonic norms that keep things as they are.
However, I will say that is difficult. It is also a problem related to American dominance of culture. Like how many Americans genuinely watch media made outside of America?
How much media is made outside the US?
It is a complicated situation but worth talking about regardless.
There’s a ton of media made outside of the US. Black people make movies and have myths and lore like every category of person. It’s just that Hollywood is only interested in white stories. I’m black and I don’t care - if I want to see black representation in media I look to black story tellers. I personally don’t need white people to shoehorn black people into their stories to make me feel good. There’s plenty of non-white media to choose from if I want.
Yeah agreed, American culture is insanely dominant which perpetuates a lot of our cultural flaws a lot further than they might go were it not for it being so overwhelmingly exported around the world.
I honestly can’t stand the willful blindness of the fans of when it comes to Vaemond claiming driftmart.
@@DearAphrodite yes he has a right to fight for his inheritance. The fact that people don’t see how wrong RT is n just stand by every bad decision she makes is just annoying to me.
@@DearAphrodite the more I look into her character the more I dislike her
@@BDnevernind a vast majority of the audience r very team black/RT/DT. Whether u look at reactions, reviews, Twitter, n other social medias accounts. Their r more team black fans than team green n very few fans that sees the faults of both sides. I say 80 percent blacks n 20 percent greens.
I thoroughly disagree with the idea that racebending the Valeryons is a good idea for 3 reasons.
1) I am used to seeing plentiful characters of a variety of races in important positions in many television shows and other media and I have been for over 30 years. So to me the idea that such representation is needed as a corrective seems very flawed to me. I also do not agree that society is white supremacist in the modern day as I find the arguments that it is unconvincing at best. As for the world at large it is very diverse. It is just those people are realistically not usually in Westeros where our story takes place. It may be the one competent piece of worldbuilding GRRM did.
2) I think that a lot of the subtext your are describing is reading between the lines things that are not there, or seeing shapes in clouds. I am from the UK, which has a somewhat different historical context which may contribute to this but many of the things you mention as subtext are so foreign to my read of the show that I am honestly surprised that the idea even came up.
3) Even if racebending from source material was a good idea (which I do not grant - I tend to see it as pointless but harmless until showrunners get political about it) I think changing the Valeryons was bad from a storytelling perspective. Making it too bloody obvious that the kids are not Laenor's I think removes a lot of the ambiguity from the conflict which is, at heart, 2 factions of completely selfish pricks arguing over power and not giving a toss about the people (they are all villains IMO. Anyone who schemes for the throne is). If we are never actually sure if they are illegitimate it adds more shades of grey to the conflict nicely and focuses everything on the actual conflicts which are "should a woman ascend the throne?" and "how can I scheme to get my family power, and to hell with everything else".
And as for diverse stories in general, I would like to see more diverse settings and histories than generic fantasy medieval Europe type worlds. I love many of the (Tolkien is perfect) but I would really enjoy seeing stories based on Chinese folklore, African history, Indian mythology and so on. That would be cool. So make stories like Mulan, Moana, Kingdom and so on. But "racebending" is the laziest thing you can do and does nothing to create actually diverse stories. It just means you make visually varied casts in the same old stories from yesteryear.
I'll have to disagree with you on that. I'd argue that the issues you inferred and paralleled with black history are your biases because it is only obvious to Americans who have that background. In fact, I think your inferences are far-fetched and only observable if you use race and diversity as a lens. Someone who does not have the baggage of American history hanging on their head would not see those issues and how it would be used to reinforce stereotypes in the real world. They would see other issues. For instance, I'm asian and what I see is how both the greens and blacks abuse filial piety to strangle and impede their family members. A valid observation. However, do I have a fear that this would be utilized to devalue filial piety in asian interactions? No. It's too far-fetched.
I think the best solution to your want of pushing the envelope further for diversity is to not race-bend, genderbend, or hijack existing IPs. On that, we agree. Rather, creating new works or IPs with the diverse cast and issues you want from the ground up instead. Not only will there be a new range of works to enjoy but also new issues would be available to critique.
Well I don't think you're disagreeing with me because this was largely the exact point I was trying to make, that the ethnocentrism of a white American/European perspective in the writing of the book, the adaptation, and via a huge portion of the audience that has the same internalized biases has a significant impact on the way that the story was written, altered, and interpreted by a big chunk of the audience, and that's worth acknowledging and unpacking. Clearly it's not going to apply to or resonate for everyone because not everyone has the same experience, but again, given that GRRM and basically everyone actually creating the show is coming into the project with very similar cultural bias, it's undeniably going to have an effect even if that effect isn't noticeable to everyone.
Crap! I think the video ended before i hit send so my initial comment didn't go through. If it does show up at some point, I'm not a bot.
My point though is that i think your analysis of the deeper contextual/subtextal changes to the original story that comes from racebending is spot on. I'm glad to see people of color in the show. Overall HotD does a better job of it than Rings of Power did, in my opinion.
I think all of this could be solved however if the showrunners would just choose stories that already incorporate people of color in their stories from the start.
Modern stories like: Rage of Dragons, Mistborn, the Malazan books, the Stormlight Archive, etc. Already have people/cultures based on people of color written in to the books. Great video though.
12:04 im pretty sure with how burnt the body was it could have been any race. After all they are trying to make a non valyrian pass for a valyrian, i think the blackness is the least important point here
I love your videos and content. But historically white supremesy wasn't an established "thing" until after Hitler. Not saying people weren't racist, they were as they are. But slavery wasn't race based in America, slaves were primarily sold from Africa making most of them black, but upon America's founding black and white were on equal footing in terms of the free individual. There are many black Americans who's history is deleted for the sake of modern social justice, because they weren't oppressed enough for the modem narrative.
Imagine writing a fictional history of the war of the roses, and being criticized about not including an Vietnamese person. From someone who cares more for history than the modern world, it's utterly ridiculous to give this much attention to race in a fantasy writing.
I actually think it would make more sense to ignore GOT and make all besides Valyrians brown.
I wasnt thinking about race when I watched it. Yes, having the family with darker skin made them easier to identify as a family. But there was too many other things much more things to worry about. The politics. The dragons! Best friend marrying the other ones father. And the children fighting amongst themselves was as shockingly good TV. Especially after they grew up. I am all about good acting and good plotlines.
It’s the contradiction for me, you’re saying HOTD made the right choice in race bending, while
Quietly SUBLIMINALLY saying HOTD made the wrong choice in race bending while also shading the blacks 🤦🏾
When a biracial who’s parents are white and black has a baby with a white person and they have a baby you should see what their baby looks like.
For example, take a look at Eartha Kit’s daughter and her daughter’s children.
I'm thinkking that maybe since Daemon has Velaryon ancestry it makes sense that Rhaena and Baela look black
I don't find it to be contradictory, adding prominent black characters to the story is a net positive, but not taking into account that you're lowkey making this narrative into something that favors white people exploiting black people is a mistake.
"The blacks"? Really?
@@HillsAliveYTI don’t think adding prominent black characters is an inherent positive in and of itself though? And no, it’s not because I don’t want to see more representation in media, it is because when you gender/race/sexuality swap something in an existing piece of fiction it will *always* be out of place. Representation in media should be expanded by encouraging authors of color to write their own stories, where Black, Asian, Middle Eastern characters, *what have you* actually fit into the story being told. By simply race swapping people in another story, you either have to change the story into something it wasn’t to make it work, (in which case, simply write your own story which includes the elements you want) or it becomes a simple aesthetic change, which can lead to all the problems you’ve mentioned in this video. George RR Martin is telling a story that he wants to tell, he’s not obligated to include people of color into his universe, especially if he doesn’t feel confident in his ability to portray them accurately. Instead of having people try to twist an existing story, into telling a different one that we want it to say, we should write new ones, saying what we want to say. Doing otherwise implies that we don’t think the stories about people of color can stand on their own. Which based on the black panther movies, is patently untrue
@@olorinmagus4479well the problem is that the place that is producing these movies and stories..... Isn't middle east or east Asia or anywhere in Africa.
It's the western world where vast majority of people are white Europeans and the dominate dominate culture there is European one
Even what you describe as 'poc' {a dumb term that basically means non white} are completely native to that western culture
I have always said/believed that the whole representation thing was nothing more than a "first step" to rewrite history itself in a way that benefits the people in charge, aka the state/ruling class that control the schools that propagates this ideas. It goes like this:
First: They start by doing something like giving the mantel/title of fictional characters of a specific gender/ethnicity to another character of another gender/ethnicity. Think turning the Falcon into the "new" captain america or having not Pete Parker as the "new" Spider Man.
Second: They now start changing the ethnicity of fictional characters, think not-shaggy in the velma show and King Grayskull from He-man as an example.
Third: Now they begin changing the ethnicity/gender of historical characters in historical fiction, while making little to no changes to the story itself. Think of shows like the Vicking show, the one with the british queen and the poc Cesar, and the Cleopatra stuff.
Fourth: They change the history itself, whether is the events or the description of the people themselves, in fictional history shows. Examples being the Woman King movie and the Cleopatra show.
And then fifth: they change history itself by changing the books or the documentaries that talk and are supposed to teach real world history itself.
Facts, but interest in this have certain, 4-word letter nation
I have always linked the Valyrians to the Ptolemaic dynasty of Egypt. They saw themselves as gods, structured the priesthood and the whole country to worship and serve them, and wed within the nuclear family to keep the bloodline pure.
Yeah I think that's definitely a huge reference point, but again it's an interesting insight into the importance of meta-textual understanding because even if GRRM was using that as a starting point, the vast majority of the audience doesn't have a lot of context for it because it's not a standard history lesson in many parts of the world.
@@HillsAliveYT Yes, I absolutely see that point.
I have a question for you.
I am re-reading ASOIAF for the first time after watching your Lolita video. The age differences always troubled me, especially since my children were the same age as some of the Star children the first time I read the series. I wonder why you left out Jon (14yo) and Ygritte (19yo), and Margaery Tyrell who was 14yo when her family started to plot to get her married to King Robert. Granted Jon and Margaery were older than a lot of the others, and seams more willing, but they were still children. Then again, the video might have gone on and on as there are others to mention as well.
@@HillsAliveYT Well that's more a statement of how shitty your country's education system is. The story shouldn't treat the REST of the worldwide audience like they're stupid just because certain Americans (and not even all!) can be, or at least blifully ignorant so long as the woke narrative serves them.
Yeah I left out a ton of characters that this applies too actually, simply because I picked up on the specific through-line of characters who were sexually exploited/abused in their youth and wound up killing the people responsible for that exploitation and wound up narrowing the focus down to those characters. Honestly if I went over every single character who was taken advantage too then the video would have been like an hour long!
Some people really take this stuff far to seriously. This is a Fantasy with fantasy politics, fantasy ethnicity with no focus on skin color in world of the TV show. I do see this as a seperarate continuity from the book, which is fine as most adaptations are, but dragging real world politics and optics into the fantasy world is burning braincells that could be used on something actually important.
sorry but when i read or watch something in a medieval fantasy setting then diversity actively hurts my immersion. Unless magic has allowed for easy transportation and there was an age of exploration you wont find a diverse society. "races" so to speak dont develop in a vacuum. They develop because they are big travel distances between each other and by the way... also have different cultures.
Raceswapping the velaryons i can except because it works with them beeing "the" explorers by sea (corlys journey and all) and enriches the already exicting story telling. But otherwise diveersity in an medieval society without any explenation is a lazy attempt to appear moraly correct. If you want diversity as a writer despite this please have an actual reason for the mass relocation of an entire ethnic race. For example an huge natural disaster, slavery or new ways of transportation.
Martin should have used the Velaryons and other Westeros sailors to bring in peoples from elsewhere. Look at the map of Westeros and one will see there are so little obstacles for Westeros to get to the likes of the Summer Isles, Volantis, and as far as Yi Ti. The Lannisters and Ironborn, who are on the western side of Westeros, can sail there. It's not like our world's geography where there are Cape Horn and the Cape of Good Hope to make circumnavigating the globe difficult. With a layout like his world's, there would be foreigners coming to Westeros for trade, because trade increases revenue. The Lannisters aren't just rich because of gold mines but because their home city is a port city, Lannisport. These port cities would have allowed not just foreign peoples but the more exotic creatures, like basilisks and King Kong apes, to be brought into Westeros stories.
Making Velaryons black creates some problems down the line. Daemon Blackfyre had rebels follow him because he looked like the super blonde, pale Valyrian Targaryen standard, and King Daeron had married a Dornish princess, producing Prince Baelor Breakspear who had darker features like his mother. It's strange the Westerosi claimed the Targaryen looking Daemon was more native than the Dornish who had been in Westeros far longer than the Targaryens had been, exposing a racist standard.. Daemon's grandmother was a Valaryon, which would make him in the show darker skinned.
It also says a lot that with Mysaria, the showrunners looked at a foreign character who started out as a prostitute and was accused of being a witch and said, "Let's make her Asian!"
You are one the best GoT HoTD creators on RUclips. You never cease to amaze me by how you call our all the controversial takes in this series.
Keep it up
I think it is strange to see the Targaryens as white and their obsession with blood purity as expression of white superiority, given the fact that Valyrians are clearly meant as a distinct ethnic group which sees itself and is seen by others as very much separate from the Westerosi, and other people with white skin. I mean, if you met Rhaenyra in the US today, you would see her as a white woman, but that is not what she is in her world.
In fact, I think it would be great to have the black Velaryons express the same feeling of superiority towards the native Westerosi as the Targaryens do. That would IMHO drive home the point that the world of ASOIAF does not have the same colonial history as our world, and that whites are not necessarily at the top of the hierarchy over there. Whether audiences would like it is a different matter, of course.
Valyrians should have looked like 40k Salamanders.
That would actually be pretty cool
lol, Racebending is ok as long as it's woke. You should really read some byzantine history by the way.
Personally I don't think they should race bend any characters from books. If the show writers wanted a strong character that's black, just introduce Nettles a little early. I also don't believe the current way you view the world if very healthy.
Most of GRRMS characters are incredibly flawed and have a healthy dosage of evil sprinkled into their hearts. So no matter who you try to genderbend/racebend/sexual-orientationbend? you will always end up making the represented group look bad. Which in truth all people have the aptitude for cruelty. I've never once met an adult who hasn't experienced schadenfreude in regards to an ex or a childhood bully. As justified as this may be, it's still cruel. So if the point is to increase representation in the dance of the dragons, you're really only going to increase the representation of said groups acting cruel among other flaws like greed and pride. (which run rampant amongst Westeros' elite)
So to wrap up that point, it just seems pointless to race bend. You can't fix historical white washing in hollywood by black washing hbo max. It's just an overcorrection that feels morally correct in the moment. And this is where I just say boooo politics ruining good literature. Also read you byzantine history.
I really couldn’t care less, personally. So long as a show is good, it doesn’t hugely matter to me what the cast look like. I think the actors playing the Velaryons did their jobs well, and so that’s all that mattered.
However, I will say that I don’t personally find it inherently bad that ASOIAF focuses mostly on white characters, and I don’t see why it need be a problem. For all its fantasy elements, Planetos is a world that is rather like ours in having geolocated ethnic groups, and as its set in a medieval setting where, outside of slavery people didn’t tend to migrate all that much, I think it makes sense the way it is. I don’t think that’s racism. Nor do I think being annoyed when that changes in adaptation is racism.
I do think it is a great shame that fantasy is very much dominated by white people, but what I honestly fail to see is why we aren’t encouraging fantasy worlds that are based on parts of the world other than medieval europe. I understand that encouraging these to be written, and then making them popular, could prove challenging, but it’s far from impossible. I think the success of Marvel’s Black Panther demonstrates quite well that POC-dominated stuff can indeed sell well in spite of racists.
Of course, the other option is to just write more fantasies in which ethnicity is either not tied to geography at all, or in which something or other has prompted far more cosmopolitan societies than we had in the real world until relatively recently. In such an instance, nobody could possibly have cause to complain anymore except for if they were racist.
I completely agree that #HotD didn't take things far enough when it comes to race bending characters. I've said before that IMO, Harwin should have also been bi-racial, so that the father of Rhaenyra's first three children is more ambiguous to all the other characters but also the audience. If the show wanted to communicate to the audience that Rhaenyra's children are not Laenor's, then the looks that her and Harwin share when Joffrey is born, and the private conversations she has with Laenor, would have been more than enough. The Strong boys didn't need to be white. I also think that keeping Rhaeny's hair black, like it is in the books, would have gone a long way to defend the reason why the Strongs boys have black/brown hair, when both their parents have blond hair. This obviously doesn't fix everything, but it would have made a huge difference IMO.
house strong is a first man house so him being bi racial would be like making the starks bi racial
terrible take
@@Bigdjimmy903 What do you mean by first man house?
@Mic-Mak It is said that House Strong are descendants from the First Men, who are believed to come from Essos. So House Strong being POC or biracial is very believable.
While the white majority of Westeros can be explained by the Andals and Rhoynar peoples.
@@disneybunny45 First men look like northerns while andals are fair skinned with light hair
Corlys and his siblings have questionable parentage like the "Strongs". That's the only explanation!
I mean what Vaemond said is really no different from what Stannis was saying in ASOIAF and GoT.
I agree that the show vilifying Vaemond for essentially defending his family's inheritance and giving Rhaenyra and Daemond a free pass for murdering a complete innocent were both bad choices, but other than that, I gotta disagree 100% with pretty much everything you said, here.
There's nothing racist or problematic about a continent based on medieval Europe being filled with people who look European, no more than there would be anything racist or problematic about a land based on medieval Japan being filled with Japanese-looking people, or a story all about native African myths and cultures being filled with African-looking people. Nor is inexplicably turning a bunch of white characters black--with no regard for the lore, family trees, or basic common sense--improving anything. Black characters should be able to exist and be their own people--whether as heroes or villains or anything in-between--without just being white characters with a coat of paint hastily and messily slapped over them in adaptation.
If George R.R. Martin had made all Valyrians a black, silver-haired race, as he briefly considered (before dropping the idea basically because they'd be too similar to Dark Elves, and because he didn't want to show black people as oppressive conquerors) I think that would've been fine, even great! It would have made the Targaryens more distinct, unique, and original, everything would have been consistent, and having them slowly transition from black-skinned to brown-skinned to white-skinned over the centuries as they're forced to breed with white Andals like the Daynes or the Blackwoods would have been a fascinating and realistic depiction of how the genetics of the women they married slowly changed them over the ages. House of the Dragon would have done better by introducing entirely new characters who traveled from distant lands (the Summer Islands, Yi Ti, wherever) to fill in the blanks of the story, or at the very least have been consistent and made every Valyrian dark-skinned to begin with.
I didn't know that the Velaryons were originally white. Actually, it's kind of disappointing to know that. The idea of having a black important family was really cool.
I think the real problem is that authors shouldn't be pressured to "racebend" some of their characters. If an author wants to make all of his/her characters white, black or whathever, I don't see the problem.