CSA, Child Exploitation, & The Lolita-fication Of A Song Of Ice And Fire
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
- CSA (child s*xual abuse) and the exploitation of children is one of the most unsettling recurring themes within A Song of Ice and Fire. However, the reaction of many fans seems to whitewash or overlook the disturbing aspects of these dynamics in a variety of ways, including rationalizing the so-called relationships between these characters in a similar way that pop culture has broadly rationalized the abuse in Vladimir Nabakov's novel, Lolita.
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Intro
01:30 The Cultural Impact Of Lolita
04:06 Who Exploits Children & What Happens Because Of It
09:51 The Nearly Unavoidable Price Of CSA In ASOIAF
14:47 The Reverberating Impact Of Daenerys' Abuse
17:58 Tyrion's Victimhood & Villainy
21:12 Littlefinger's Erased & Rewritten Trauma
26:38 Conclusion 
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Speaking of Ned, he does explicitly get quite disturbed when he finds out that the mother of one of Robert’s bastards is still only around 15, so it is clearly shown that it is not considered as normal as some fans try to make it out for adults to **** children in this world.
Yep. He even viewed the girl for what she is. A child who just recently had a child. Making her and her baby's murder in A Clash of Kings all the more horrific and upsetting.
It depends for the Dothraki it would be normal but not for Westeros
@@CornG4397dothrakians were based on the central asian nomads and mongols who lynched the pedophiles. I am not sure where you're getting your info from
Something that really struck me was the last line in the chapter where Dany becomes pregnant with Drogo's child.
"It was her fourteenth name day."
And this was such a simple line but felt so... powerful. Like it felt like an acknowledgement that this wasn't great. A reminder that she's a child.
See thats the thing, watching the show i couldnt really put the idea that Dany is 14 in my head, she just doesnt look 14
@@aguspuig6615i think she was aged up to 16
It was definitely purposeful by R.R Martin, that line is so powerful I felt ill reading it
@@nameslesss the show aged up a lot of the characters, make it more digestible for viewers I believe
Literally as soon as I read that it has forever been stuck in my head. I'll be driving down the road and randomly " It was her fourteenth nameday " pops up. Ugh!
Littlefinger's comment that "When you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, best close your eyes, get it over with" makes a whole lot more sense now.
Didn't he say "cut her throat. Be done with it." afterwards
@@redwarrior9100Tbf that was more connecting his analogy to the situation at hand
Re-reading the first time readers meet Shae, and realizing how much of it is colored through Tyrion's POV. Looking at it from the outside, Shae is a traumatized teenager. Tyrion has armed men collect her and bring her to him, instructing those men to make it clear to Shae what is expected because he doesn't want to see "...a look the girls got in their eyes sometimes when they first beheld the lordling they'd been hired to pleasure". The fact that Shae is making the best of the situation doesn't change the fact that she had no good options here. Even the way Tyrion speaks to her the first night: "I'll want more from you than what you've got between your legs, though I'll want that too. You'll share my tent, pour my wine, laugh at my jests, rub the ache from my legs after each day's ride ... and whether I keep you a day or a year, for so long as we are together you will take no other men into your bed." From Tyrion's point of view this may be an offer of a transaction, but if we hadn't gotten to know Tyrion it would read a lot like a set of commands, and Shae cannot possibly know whether she can safely turn down the offer. Fans don't want to see Tyrion this way, but he is absolutely using his power to exploit a teenager for sex.
What is worse, Tyrion can't help but believe Shae cares about him. He made her pretend and then he suffers when she occasionally lets it through that she's not sincere. He's a victim of his own delusions
@@pushista9322omg yes! This is so accurate, and so often true for men in power, both in GoT and in real life
Dany is the last person who should be expected to grasp the horror of what happened to her. NO ONE wants to view themselves as a victim. We're only human, and the human brain seeks to avoid pain and trauma... she rationalizes her experiences so she can function in the world.
@@theravenousrabbit3671 A majority of marriages in the Middle Ages did not have such large age gaps and and most people did not get married that young. It was usually around 15-16 to someone of a similar age. Your the one who needs to some history, and it says a lot about you that you think being against child exploitation is “feminist propaganda”.
@@theravenousrabbit3671 What part of that sounds like love? Just because rape has been socially sanctioned since the Dawn of time (and it hasn’t, ASOIAF is horribly inaccurate in its lose portrayal of medieval Europe) that doesn’t magically make it ok.
Children have been denied their education and forced into hard labor for centuries now. That doesn’t make it ok.
I think many people want to see themselves as a victim.
@@user-bn6ht5eg4q we talking about the average person or royalty/nobility because those def did
No one wants to view themselves as a victim? The current culture would disagree with you. Hard.
Another fantastic example of the consequences of CSA in the books is the character of Aeron using several coping mechanisms to get over what Euron did to him as a child and how his self destructive alcoholism and his religious devotion to the Drowned God become extreme crutches for him.
Didn't you miss varys? He was castrated when still a kid and thrown to the streets to perish. It's also interesting to see that the story repeaeats itself as his web of spies IS made up of children, Many in terrible conditions. It seems varys formative years clearly impacted the way he engages with the world
Well, Varys has connections and these kids usually get a little something out of it. He doesn't harm or abuse them in the end, and since they've often got no one, well, he's their new best bet
He never hurt the children in his web of spies. In fact, he helps them.
@@Flutter_Aeina I'm pretty sure he cuts out their tongues so I wouldn't say he doesn't hurt them
@@myth_760 I checked the wiki and in the books some of the kids had their tongues cut out, but it wasn’t by Varys. They were sent to him by Illiryo who was the one who mutilated them. Varys didn’t hurt them
@@Flutter_Aeina Let's be real here; Varys can prolly stop that from happening but chooses not to. Note that this is Book Varys, not GoT.
I feel like a lot of people don’t bring up the classism that colors Lysa (and to an extent Catelyn’s) relationship with Petyr during their childhood.
They both play kissing games with Petyr and treat him kind of like a play thing, which I don’t think they’d do with a boy who was of their class. Because Petyr didn’t have the social power of a Stark, Baratheon, Lannister, etc. he’s safe in a way other boys wouldn’t be.
I think this connects to why Lysa raped him…twice. I do believe Lysa truly believes she loves Petyr, but on some level, I also believe she feels entitled to and possessive of Petyr.
Totally! LOL this is actually where my mind was going but that I completely failed to make clear enough in my writing, Lysa and Petyr didn't have a huge age difference but they did have a huge power difference, and Lysa really exploited him horribly through that.
@@HillsAliveYT Yes, thank you! Most of the fandom barely acknowledges that Petyr was Lysa’s (and Hoster Tully’s to an extent) victim because they hate him so much. Which I get, he’s done disgusting and depraved things, but he’s also an interesting and multifaceted character.
That dose not give him a pass tho to legit kill catelyns family so he pretty much just sleep with her
@@kkandsims4612 Nobody said it gives him a pass.
@@kkandsims4612 I never said it did nor do I think it does, it just adds more depth to his character besides “evil, war mongering, sex trafficking pedo trying to groom Sansa into his very own Cat shaped doll.” I still think he’s an irredeemable piece of shit
not only do i hate how most people view sansa in general but the reaction to sansa’s rejection of tyrion is very telling. even book tyrion takes it as just her being repulsed by his appearance, which tbf she is and finds him scary looking but she rejects him for so much more than that. she’s a captive and deemed a traitor by tyrions family, the lannisters also murdered HER entire family and he’s nearly double her age. he was fully intending to sleep with her and made her strip until he saw that she didn’t want to and has the gall to be upset with her for it. i know tyrion is a self insert for lots of fans, and those people saw it as her being a superficial bitch who should feel grateful she was married off to someone who wouldn’t rape her. i even see people hoping that they are endgame or that he’s her punishment for being how she was in book 1. it’s all just extremely odd and disturbing
I am totally appalled by that. People who feel that Sansa should sleep with/married Tyrion just because he was nice to her sound like a incel. One of those guys who feel that a woman owe them something just because they brought them dinner, or was nice to them .
@@luvprue1 yes!!! incel vibes thats definitely it! like just because he wasn’t as bad to her as other prominent men in her life, it doesn’t mean she is going to miraculously fall in love with him, especially as tyrion has gone down a very dark path since she last saw him. i’ve seen people use ‘the beauty and the beast’ trope as some sort of penance for her past actions, for things she did as a child who didn’t know any better, and it’s sickening. she’s not as naive and idealistic as she once was, but this is a girl raised by ned stark, and watched her parents happy marriage based on mutual love and respect, so i expect the only way she would fall in love is with a realistic, but still importantly, an honourable man. And it’s like once again, sansa’s character arc, her “redemption” 🙄, is being defined by the men in her life.
i’ve also seen *that* sect of the fandom, regard the hound and sansa almost the same way. like the ‘unkiss’ moment really means anything morally, because even if sansa is in love with him like they say, it doesn’t change the fact that the hound was enamoured with sansa, a captive child. he still was attracted to her and said he should have “fucked her bloody” to arya, HER SISTER, when he had the chance. how romantic.
a lot of people who want Sansa and Tyrion to be endgame say that she will 'grow past her emphasis on appearance.' Almost every main female character is beautiful, and men aren't judged for wanting to be with attractive women. But because Sansa wanted to marry Joffrey and had a crush on Loras she needs to be fixed as though a beautiful teenage girl shouldnt want to be with an attractive teenage boy.
@@lizmerrick6883
I think in that case, it's an allegory for how some women will go for real "hot teenager guys" before they know a thing about them.
Loras was fine but, well, was also gay so that wasn't gonna work out, like with Margery, and we already know how things went with Joffery.
Sansa was very poor in her judge of character and knowledge, but hey, why ask questions when all these pretty boys are walking around, eh?
There's lessons for both stupid/blind men and women in this story and it shows.
@@thalmoragent9344 but the men aren’t 11-14. A young girl should be able to have a nice normal teen infatuation without it being some statement on her character.
What a lot of people don't get is that EVEN if Lyanna felt like she loved Rhaegar, even if it was this big romantic story... it's still grooming. People like to talk about the social context of Westeros, but imo you either believe that a 22 year old being romantically involved with a 14 year old is abusive or you don't, regardless of when/where it happens, and I believe it is.
Then don't watch and read it then. It's these mindfucks and discussions about them that makes the franchise very interesting.
That the thing, people don't really defend "it's totally okay for a 22 yo to marry a 14 year old and be romantically involved with them"
They merely understand it in the afformentioned social context heavily inspired from factual historical contexts of the middle ages
The same way I have deeply personally against murder, whoring, rape and all the other attrocities present in the world of ice and fire, yet they are brutal and saddening realities, and as such understandable in the context
HotD spoilers:
It's why people don't rage over it when there's Mr. Grown Ass mf Lannister courting 17 year old princess Rhaenyra...I can't spell her name lol
Or that the hand of the king bloody proposed her to be promised to her TWO year old brother, what would today be considered OBVIOUS grooming of a boy that would eventually marry a 20s/30s year old woman as a teenager
Is it fucked? Bloody much! Is it the reality of the world with foundations on real historical past? Also yes, and George doesn't shy away from being very real and anti-euphemisms
Although it's something that should be said, his books are obviously not for everyone, that shit is filled to the brim with sex and violence and the show that adapts them show it very clearly, obviously not for everyone
@@miguelpadeiro762 i agree but there's a large group of deranged incest loving women out there (especially on twitter) straight up shipping/supporting the pairing of daemon and rhaenyra. why cant we just let it exist? why cant we just disagree with it and accept its apart of the show without supporting/condoning it?
@@wholethedogsout880 I mean it is fiction. Just because people ship something doesn't mean they would condone the same actions in real life. At least for most people, I won't deny there are some crazy people out there.
Bruh i only watched half the show i had no idea what age they were i thought they would be 18 and 27 at most. This is disturbing. I'm glad they changed that in the show (they did, right?)
The fact that the fandom completely ignores the psychological effects that CSA/incest has on the Targaryens drives me up the wall. Targaryens grow up in a family where there are no boundaries between romantic, platonic or familial relationships. They are betrothed are ridiculously young ages to their siblings or cousins (Baela and Rhaena were only two ffs) and that shapes how the interact with the world and their relatives. Not to mention Rhaenyra and her abuse and grooming at the hands of her uncle, Daemon. And Aemma as mentioned in the video. Jaehaerys marrying the barely thirteen year old Alysanne and his own relationship with his daughters which is... uncomfortable to say the least. Add on Aegon IV mistreatment of Naerys, his own abuse at the hands of Falena Stokeworth and then his possible abuse of their daughter later on. Add on Viserys II being married to an adult woman when he was just 12 and fathering children at 13. Add on Aegon II and Helaena marrying at like 13 at the most. Add on the fourteen year old Aerys II and the twelve year old Rhaella being forced to marry. And poor fucking Rhaella giving birth at thirteen.
Like looking at all this (and I'm missing like another 10+ cases of Targaryen's being married off horrifically young and the incest completely destroying their relationship with sex, family and boundaries - don't get me started on Saera). And the fact that it is normalised to the point that the realm cheers for what is essentially institutionalised child rape. No wonder they're so messed up.
frrrrrr. a real life example sort of would be the egyptian pharaohs and the ptolemies. altho the more obvious comparison is how inbred european royals were and how that came with political consequences.
In ASOIAF an 11 year old girl isn't a child, she is a political resource!
There are multiple examples of "emergency marriages" where young girls (in some cases toddlers) are married to solidify an alliance.
I think a big problem for ASOIAF specifically is the GOT series. Because everyone was aged up (or down) a lot, so the relationships are normalized by the viewer/reader.
Imagine the "I don't care if you have the screw their horses" scene is Danny was 11!
PS: A quick note on historical ages. The mother of Henry VII had him at 13. And most documentaries lable this age as "abhorrently young, even for the time."
Most "young girl" marriages happened at around 15 or 16.
I took a course on Medieval lit once. I remember there was this one story we read were some lord married a girl when she was only 11. What's really interesting is the story was pretty popular, so there were a lot of different versions of it. The most common change was aging up the girl, one version i think put her as old as 15. And all these different versions were published roughly around the same time (i wanna say 1200-1400). The age thing was less of a worldwide (or even European) universal, it tended to vary from region to region and even from family to family. Middle and lower class families actually tended to marry later, as younger marriages were usually used to secure political or finical alliances. Even then, it was still considered ideal to marry mid-teens or later, and to people of roughly the same ages (though males would be older, it was still scandalous if they were MUCH older). Super young marriages tended to only occur when situations were more precarious, think families in desperate need of money or marrying to prevent conflicts/seal treaties.
@@moonlight4665 Well, yeah, but I've read sources from the 1300s in English and Dutch who mention several times that the very young people in marriages weren't expected to consumate until they were much older. They might be betrothed or even married very young (when we're talking nobility at least, not so much the regular people), but that doesn't mean they were expected to be making those heirs as 12 year olds. Most barely even met until they were in their late teens. Like, people at that time were aware that a very young girl is less likely to survive birth compared to a woman of around 20.
Overall, people should keep in mind that Westeros ASOIAF is more based on "shock-factor" popculture version of the late medieval period where brutality and "barbarism" is exaggarated than on actual late medieval period.
Just like Ironborn are the same for Vikings.
And Dothraki for various steppe nomads.
More based on popculture tropes done for the shock factor than on the actual history.
@@vladprus4019 I would argue that ASOIAF is less made for a "look how edgy I am"-shock-factor and more build as a caricature of reality, to criticize social structures.
Then again, George writes hilariously bad sex scenes and a multi paragraph description of Dany shitting herself, so I might be giving him too much credit here.
@@HowToPnP I would argue ASOIAF is looking like it is looking, because George R R Martin himself stated he is liking "sensotianalised" stories from the real history (intrigue, betrayals etc) or at least this is what he wants to know when we tries to get know about history of some region (there is his quote about him saying he needs to learn more about history of Spain and asking of reccomendation of those intrigue stories specifically and less about economy stuff).
It is less that he's edgelord, but more he just likes stories like this so naturally when he came to making fantasy we went full on that.
The way they sanctified Tyrion’s character in the show is incredible. In the books Tyrion is incredibly creepy and aggressive towards Sansa on their wedding night. He’s attracted to her, wants Sansa to like him and feels entitled to her affections even though he is actively helping his family (who murdered her family!) steal Winterfell. He molests her on their wedding night but his fans act like he’s a saint for not raping her and a victim because Sansa (a child!) isn’t attracted to him and doesn’t prioritize his feelings.
Edit: Also, thank you for bringing up how weird it would be if Sansa was attracted to Tyrion! She’s a baby! Even when Sansa was crushing on Loras (who GRRM describes as a boy band member) she only fantasizes about kissing him lightly. Nothing more.
When she fantasizes about marrying Willas Tyrell, she dreams of babies (not sex) and naming them after her dead family, and adopting puppies.
She still calls her stomach her tummy! She’s a baby! I want all these grown men (Petyr, Tyrion, Sandor, all of them!) to get away from her!
When u say molest u mean getting naked on their wedding night right? From what I remember when reading the book is that he never laid a hand on her in that scene (like touching her or anything). They just kinda stare at each other. I may be misremembering tho
This makes me not want to read it even more. I get the grim dark setting but I don’t know if I like the amount of sexual assault mentioned in the books. Someone pointed out that it’s been referenced/seen at least 217 times in the books which is too much a number for me. I was already grossed out by dany and drogo in the show that I can’t imagine the descriptions in the books.
@@njm2699 This is the quote from their wedding night:
“She climbed onto the featherbed, conscious of his stare. A scented beeswax candle burned on the bedside table and rose petals had been strewn between the sheets. She had started to pull up a blanket to cover herself when she heard him say, "No."
The cold made her shiver, but she obeyed. Her eyes closed, and she waited. After a moment she heard the sound of her husband pulling off his boots, and the rustle of clothing as he undressed himself. When he hopped up on the bed and put his hand on her breast, Sansa could not help but shudder. She lay with her eyes closed, every muscle tense, dreading what might come next. Would he touch her again? Kiss her? Should she open her legs for him now? She did not know what was expected of her.” (ASOS, Sansa III)
Sansa suffered sexual abuse from so many men in the books, it makes my stomach turn. Tyrion, Sandor, Pycelle, Dontos, Marillion, more I might not be thinking of. It makes me sick.
@@gt3420 I’m having trouble thinking of one woman that hasn’t been assaulted in the books. And GRRM usually tries to make it as horrific as possible by including gang rape, torture or mutilation. If these things would trigger you (they triggered me) I’d suggest not reading them. It’s 100x worse than the show.
Lol
It's frustrating how the popular opinion of lolita is so skewed. It is psychological horror. The man is NOT the "protagonist". The story is written from his perspective for a reason. As intended by the author, he mentally suffers throughout the book and dies and sad and lonely death. That is why so many women and csa victims value the book. The catharsis of reading him suffer in his own words is the point of the book. The movies and book covers portray it so differently that I understand why you mentioned it here.
"Protagonist" just means the character whose POV we see the story through. This also counts for evil, disgusting, unambiguously villainous people who just so happen to be the POV character. He's the "protagonist" in purely literary terms, but by _NO POSSIBLE MEANS_ a good or heroic person that should _EVER_ be rooted for. Fuck Humbert Humbert, I'm glad he dies at the end.
I had heard the term "lolita" way before I heard about the book and my exposure to the weirdness that was it associated with always made me avoid the book. I had always wondered how a book about CSA could be so widespread and loved and it honestly shook me. Its good to know that's the "intended" message and now I kinda wanna pick it up.
Just something to correct: he IS the protagonist, but he is no 'hero' and not a good guy.
yeah Humbert is the Antagonist and clearly meant to be an unreliable narrator
He literally is the protagonist. Protagonist doesn't mean hero, it just means primary character. Lucifer is not a hero in paradise lost, but he is the protagonist.
This, for Alicent Hightower. The show aged her down to only late teens when her father put her in the position to be taken advantage of by a man her father's age and marry him with no say, forced to serve as an incubator for his children (who he ends up ignoring anyway). She's not some "steal your dad" gold digger. She's a survivor. People then point to how she raises her kids, how she looks like she would rather be somewhere else when holding Helaena or snapping at her kids in an attempt to discipline them, often trying to contrast how Rhaenyra's mothering is so much better and therefore you should root for her instead. That's comparing a traumatized, powerless woman who did not choose when and with whom she had children with, forced to be a mother against her will when she was still a child vs the most powerful Targaryen woman in the realm, the heir to the throne, choosing with whom and when to have babies, who chose to be a mother as an adult. At least Alicent tries to discipline her son when he does wrong. Lucerys cut Rhaenyra's brother's eye out as a child and Rhaenyra never even brought it up with him or tried to hold him accountable for his actions.
Book!Alicent was also in her late teens and also did nothing wrong 💚
Nothing says “I’ve never actually read Lolita” more than thinking it’s a sexy story.
Either that, or they need to be on a list.
The amount of child-marriages in medieval times is more a literary thing and highly overrated. Though children-marriages were not unheard of in - especially higher - nobility, there has to be made a difference between dynastic contracts (these were occasionally done even before the birth of the children), bethrothals (those happened already at 4-7 but usually at 12) and actual marriage (marriable age was considered between 15-18 with girls). It is rather rare that a girl is handed to her husband already at 12 (unless her father died, in this case the task of upbringing goes to the husband's family, though even then it was discouraged to raise the future couple in the same household, the girl was often raised with a female relative of the groom - often a widowed aunt) - but it might be with most people not knowing the days or years of their birth, age not being a thing, then, it was menstruation that decided on a girl's coming on age. - Yet girls in poorer or catholic nobility were often raised and educated in monasteries and due to strict fasting and ascetic practises ended up as malnourished as poor female fieldhands with the result of them often not 'florishing' before the age of 17, as a nunnery-raised lady told me, who was completely shocked that her great-granddaughter had florished at 12, she herself and her monastry-raised classmates only ripening around 17.
Reading the church-books I learned: between 1600 and 1950 the average marrying age in catholic Germany for 'smallfolks' (who need to work to gather enough money to eventually buy themselves the allowance from the liegelord to set up a house and legally marry) was 20-25 for women and 25-30 for men. There are exceptions: some partners married at 16 (female) and 18 (male) but these marriages happened under the tutelage of their 'rich' parents, or if they were orphaned by their legal warden (most likely for their dowery, the warden's main job consisted in being a marriage broker for the children in his keeping - and to get them off his hands as soon as there was a possibility to call them 'on age'). Most illegitime children I came across were born by mothers aged 16-25. In many cases the children are legitimated by sequent marriage with the - alleged - father. Only once I came across a 12 year old girl that died at childbirth, what outraged the local priest enough to add a note about the deceised's 'innocence' in the death-register, putting the blame for the local scandal on her family and abuser.
Another priest glued the episcopal 'advice' into the marriage-records, that stated (if I remember correctly) that the youngest age a girl could be married off (only with parental consent) was 16, but 'on age' was 20, but parental consent should be asked for until the bride was 25. A man's minimum age was considered 25, but marriage should be adviced to men of a solid social and economic standing at 30, exceptions at 18 should only be made with parental consent and a certain prospect and a large enough property, to prevent poverty with young families. The parental consent was needed to prevent marriages between underage runaways that had no dowery and prospects and would only add to the number of homeless paupers. There was some additional remark on marriage without parental consent but with the purpose of legitimisation of already born children, but this was the bishop's to decide. (This handout to the priests was most likely written after a local scandal, that had a pair of teenage lovers - both disgraced by their noble families - marry for the sake of legitimising their children without parental consent but by special dispense of the bishop. The story ended in a drama with the disgraced teenage nobleman - once set up for a carrear in the church or army - unable to provide for his young family, and working as a scribe, runner and fieldhand up to his untimely death of pneumonia and 'lack of strength' at 27, leaving widow and children in the care of his relatives in the clergy.)
The 'precious childhood' was only discovered around 1810 - in the cities. The countryside continued as usual with serfdom only ending around the 1860's - and a new policy into the other 'extreme' took hold, most likely following the German cultural 'Sturm und Drang'- as well as the following 'Romantic-movement' that made it fashionous to dwell on feelings instead of the dire need to economic survival, and parental guidance as well as government-diction deciding to level up 'childish immaturity' to 25 for girls and to 30 for young men (following old roman laws that had also declared men below 30 as juvenile and unsuited for offices), but the same time enforcing laws against illegitimate births, demanding to open court-cases against unmarried - teenage - mothers for shamelessness or prostitution (though some mothers sucessfully pleaded on seduction and exploitation of their innocence or rape and managed to force the rapist into compensation-payments for lost honour and alimentation for their children.)
Holy cow. Nice work.
Wow, this 1 ..very well researched i may hope.. RUclips comment really changed my view upon the child marriage rhetoric when talking about our past in the Western world. I really thought that in poor society 16 was a very normal age to get married and starting with a family for a girl and in nobility 12, 13, 14 weren't uncommon ages to wed a girl, and 14, 15, 16 not uncommon to starth birthing those noble babies. I also assumed girls would hit puberty more early then they do now, but i guess your convent story was only true for a small percentage of girls in the past seeing that the majority wasn't spending their youth in a monastery/convent/abbey/ .. Very very enlightening, thank you for widening my horizon, MagnaMater.
Thank you, for this information.
People definitely married earlier than most typically do now, but you're absolutely right. The extent to which straight up child marriage and consummation happened is greatly exaggerated, at least in the Christian West anyway, although I'm pretty sure it was a lot more common in the Islamic world considering Muhammed married his first wife when she was 6 and consummated when she was 9 (yeah, Islam's great prophet was a pedophile even by the standards of 1300+ years ago). Say whatever you want about the problem of exploitative priests and bishops in the Roman Catholic Church as a result of the social power they've held, but at no point has Christianity as a belief system ever encouraged or excused the abuse of children or the exploitation of others in general. He probably wasn't directly talking about CSA, but Christ himself greatly valued children and said that those who harm and lead kids astray basically deserve to be drowned with a millstone tied to their necks.
Is this supposed to be "between 1600 and 1950" or some other end date? 1950 gives it rather a broad range.
It was the film industry which perverted Lolita's contemporary public perception. Kubrick's adaption made the novel's sexual aspect more 'consumer friendly' by aging Dolores to sixteen and obscuring the abuse. The film's success is what shaped public consciousness, perpetuating the sexualised vision of Dolores. Nabokov explicitly did not want his novel misrepresented in this way. Nabokov was emphatically opposed to any represent of a little girl on the cover; however, after Kubrick's adaption, readers and editors came to expect a girl on the cover. You seem to imply that the novel characterises Dolores as a consenting agent when Humbert's manipulation and deception is clear throughout. The problem is that the public at large lack the interpretive subtlety to parse literary subtext. The novel, in fact, does invite readers to question and impart their moral judgment on the narrator on the opening page with the line 'ladies and gentlemen of the jury'.
That's actually really interesting!
Kubrick made a wildly popular movie that shaped cultural views of a literary work despite ignoring the explicit wishes of the author? Stephen King will be shocked to learn of this.
Lol, I was so confused what she was talking about since I've only read the book!
The op should be more specific next time like mentioning the movie and the year it was released!
Lolita is one of the few books with an adaptation I read and never 'bothered' to watch because the intrigue is Humbert's mind, how he thinks and what leads him to do what he does, which is hard to film unless monologuing endlessly. Didn't realise the movies were so succesful and it shaped what 'lolita' is nowadays, this explains the glamourising so much more. 💀
@@MrDj232 what was the other thing he did? where can I get more info on this? I'm neither Kubrick nor King fan, but I know a person who is kinda both...
I agree I first read the books when I was thirteen and was shocked Dany could think she loved Drogo and 4 years later I still think she is in denial.
oh wow, I also read the books fairly young. But even then, Dany's "love" of Drogo came off more as a response to her situation, especially in comparison to her feeling for Daario later on when she isn't the victimized party.
@RubyTwoBears What you talking about
I read the books at like 12 years old and I thought something similar. It feels more like she accepts the reality of her situation and let's Drogo have sex with her (during the Wedding night) because she knows that she has no other choice. Her being in love with him later in the book always struck me as a coping mechanism developed to protect her from the trauma of being raped and having her abuser still have complete power over her.
was he more aggressive/violent in the books? I don't remember. if he was more passive like in the show it kind of makes sense
@RubyTwoBears idk Dany was literally a child… to try and attack op by saying she’s anti feminist… seems like you’re just trying to pick a fight
I feel like Dany never truly loved Drogo, but that whatever "love" she felt is a result comes from the power being married to him gave her.
6040 she did. Why should she have stayed with drogo's dothraki? When they could have gone to the free cities of essos and live her days with much pain?
Idk seems kinda missing parts tho
I disagree. She went from being abused by the only man with power over her to being raised up by the only man with power over. Sort of brings to mind an evil saying of the plantation owners in the south. “Slaves with a wicked, brutal punishing master, pray for a kinder master, Slaves with a kind master pray for freedom.” Human nature is tragic.
Isn't she the text book definition Stockholm syndrome?
@@romanianturk2101 what majes you think she could have run away? Or are you talking about the 500 loyalists that stayed with her after drogo got sick. Many of them were slave and woman and children that nobody wanted.
@@bertellijustin6376 i feel like that is an apt discription of her situation.
ty for this!! depicting isn’t the same as endorsing. so many people drag george for portraying sexism and sexual violence in his work, but the thing is that these are CHALLENGED by the text. you’re so right that the characters who are complicit in SA are villains or villainous characters. most of the rapists in the series die or get gelded
Gelded? Who?
@@syndicalistcat3138 they're not named, but dany gelds the rapists in the battle of meereen, and so does stannis in the battle beyond the wall
@@syndicalistcat3138 Stannis the Mannis is the only one who recognize rape and sex slavery as a crime against women and gelds rapists
@@syndicalistcat3138 it's another word for castration
@@Imetral0 Thanks but a know that.
I absolutely think that Lyanna was groomed by Raegar into running away with him... And it's a great play on the trope of the evil dragon where he tricks the princess into being locked in the tower.
The evidence in the existing texts is open to a wide range of interpretations. It's not entirely inconceivable that a 15-16 year old girl in this setting could experience sexual attraction toward and "fall in love" with a somewhat older man, or the desire to elope with him as an alternative to being married off to another man who she clearly feels aversive toward.
Rhaegar was... Weird. I wish we knew more about him to be able to judge him properly.
@@miguelcondadoolivar5149 Well until George finally publishes the Winds of Winter this is all we have...
My headcanon is that Rhaegar enticed Lyanna not by love or sex, but by her desire to be heroic. He told her about the prophecy he read and that he was convinced she was the one who would give birth to the "third head of the dragon" since Elia wasn't able to have another child. Her choices were to either marry a habitual philanderer she wasn't attracted to, or save the world from a second Long Night by having sex with a hot prince. It's easy to see how a spirited girl, chafing at the restrictions placed on her would choose the more idealistic option.
@@astrinymris9953 this makes the most sense to me
Dany's "love" for Khal Drogo is classic Stockholm Syndrome.
She was threaten by her Brother. She have noone but Drago there.
@@selenadrenalinperle7383 which is why it was Stockholm Syndrome. She turned to one abuser to protect her from another abuser.
I honestly think that Martin did such a good job at portraying SA and it’s consequences, and it’s absolutely insane to me that some people literally don’t even notice.
Some argue the details are a bit much.
@@poenpotzu2865 can’t disagree with that
@@poenpotzu2865true but he goes into detail about everything lmao his sex scenes are just as detailed as all his food scenes lol he just loves immersing the reader into the scene as much as possible
@@poenpotzu2865 The reality is important to show sometimes or people don't take things with the necessary seriousness that they should.
There is a prevalent theory that Viserys was severly depressed by the guilt of Aemma's death, which was technically his fault. That may explain his drinking habits.
Why do find it technically his fault? Kind of a bad rhetoric if youre referring to him impregnating her, since at her death she was over 20. He would blame himself, as many do in his situation, but you are implying that it is the "fault" of widowed men that their wife died in childbirth (and if you are referring to the "save the child" birth scene in the series, I dont recall any of it in the books, and still wouldnt be "his fault", since Aemma would not have lived, just had arguably a slightly less traumatic death. You dont survive a breech in those days)... I will also mention that Viserys himself was only 16 when we was married off to Aemma (though she was likely only 12-13 when first bedded by him, but still, both kids.)
@@iwillcontactattorneygenera1078 I don't think it's all his fault, so maybe I should have put differently. I more mean that he has reasons to feel guilty and that may explain his poor habits.
@@YggdrasilAudio Oh yeah it a hundred percent is a correct theory! I mean it happens in reality too, survivors guilt is a real thing, and widowed fathers do blame themselves (without cause of course, but its only natural to do). Its pretty much confirmed by the series at least, the dudes last words are to Aemma. He never did stop loving her, few widowers do.
Question: Do you think Doreah consented to her sexual activities with Daenerys? Because I don’t. I feel like all of Daenerys’ hand maidens still see themselves as her slaves and Daenerys kind of treats her like human sex toy. It made me very uncomfortable. I also don’t think Daenerys is bi, or rather, that she would ever pursue a romantic relationship with a woman.
I’m pretty sure it’s Irri you’re talking about, since Doreah died in the Red Waste I think. But yeah, as someone who once identified as bisexual, I’m kinda tired of people looking at Dany having a bit of a thing with her “handmaid” (read: former slave) as her being totally bi and woke and ✨representation✨when she only really agreed to it in Astapor because she was missing Drogo, and never actually thinks much about being attracted to Irri as a person, rather just about physical sensations
@@nevaehaho61 You’re right, it’s Irri I’m thinking of. Thank you for the correction! I think it’s because Doreah is more explicitly referred to as a sex slave that I got them mixed up. And I agree with everything you said, their sex scenes was more about Daenerys missing Drogo and Irri focusing on pleasuring her. Daenerys even says her kisses taste like duty. It made me so uncomfortable
This (Irri) is discussed in the video briefly.
Lol, I always thought that "tween" means "someone who is in his twenties" (I am not a native English speaker). Thankfully I have never uttered the sentence "I am into tweens" haha. Thank you for enlighting me.
This made me laugh. I can definitely imagine even a native English speaker making this mistake. Words are weird.
Idk exactly where the word comes from, but it might be from “between”. Even if it’s not that it’ll help you remember probably
@@bibitta
That is the case.
@@DarkrarLetsPlay Huh, I always figured it was a combination of "twelve" and "teen", thus referring to young teens and people who aren't technically teenagers yet but close.
@@bibitta It is a fairly modern, marketable and 'family-friendly' replacement of the word pubescent referring to those generally between the ages of 12-14 (or simply those entering or still in the stages of puberty). Not entirely sure where it started, but I hadn't seen it in use til perhaps the late 90s early 00's and it didn't really pick up steam til the past 10 years or so when companies started using it to market to that age group and the parents of. I assume it is derived from 'between' as well and caught on because it is linguistically close to sounding like 'teen' so that it has its inferable meaning somewhat built in. As a side note, it had been used to refer to cell animation 'between' key frames in animation for some time prior to being adopted as an age designation.
Also can't forget the gross fixation fandom has on Sansa and the Hound. Even though he too is much older and he abused her as well. Kind of surprised that wasn't mentioned in the video.
Yeah, that one is mystifying to me and so incredibly grim. He is fixated on her at 11 years old and then literally holds her down with a blade at her throat to the point she thinks she's going to die and that's somehow romantic? I wish I had never happened upon some of these fandom takes, it's frankly disturbing.
@@sje8425I think it's grown women who find Sandor attractive and instead of just writing an OC to ship him with, they project their weird attraction onto Sansa.
@@jostockton. I've seen grown men ship them as well. No matter who is doing it, they're all gross.
I always thought that the reason behind Littlefinger owning a brothel was all about the whole information is power sort of thing. Knowing what men like and maybe even getting them to reveal more information while they were there. Also, to make friends by proving powerful individuals with a service they like and keep their secrets for them. But this is an interesting take on the character and makes him a better developed character.
That’s definitely a fair theory, but he could still do that without being as open and obvious as he is, in fact it would probably be easier for him to get information on high profile people if they weren’t aware that these brothels were owned by him.
....so Epstein
@@HillsAliveYT I suppose that is true but Littlefinger whole deal is that he is this nice funny little man who is cleaver and eager to be everyone’s friend and help them out when they need something.All the while he slowly grabs more and more power with no one realizing the full extent of his ambition. Nobody takes him for a threat besides a select few like Tyrion and Varys, He’s just everyone’s friend. I saw the prostitution as just another part of his way of playing the game of thrones
@@HillsAliveYT None of that was meant to say I disagree with anything you said in the video
I still don't understand why a brothel owner was permitted to be on the small council. The stories were modeled after real world medieval history, including the church having considerable influence on the crown and belief systems of the people. In real history owning a brothel was and continues to be morally repugnant, so why be allowed to not work closely with people in power? It wasn't even an open secret, it was just open. On the show only Ned and Cat seemed to slightly object to it, and that was only because it compromised Cat's respectability. Momentarily. It didn't stop them from allowing Sansa and Arya to chill with him at a public tournament.
Note: I am not asking how it happened but why it was allowed to happen. Why didn't Robert and John insist that he hire a front man for his businesses. Also, I'm pretty much show only so I know there's information I'm missing.
Also Aemma Arryn is a parallel to Margaret Beaufort who was 13 when she had Henery VII and that too led to civil war.
That's a great real life comparison!
I dont really see the parallel... and I think thats not really comparable, as Margaret Beaufort was married at 12 to Edmure Tudor (shockingly enough, already her second marriage) who was around 25, more than a decade her elder and fully a grown ass man, and impregnated her soon after the wedding.
Aemma (though still absolutely too young for childbirth etc) was married to a relative peer in age, a 16 year old boy Viserys, only five years apart, likely consummating the marriage at 12-13 and 17-18. Also, Margaret Beaufort lived to a ripe age.
what about the hounds obvious feelings for Sansa and him preying on her her entire time in kings landing and her later thinking she reciprocates them (in the books). I was shocked by this and the amount of people who "ship it"
ppl ship daemon and rhaenyra too its insane
@@wholethedogsout880 Yeah, I don't even like him on his own. He seems like Aerys or Ramsay. Just his behavior at the tourney or his raid in King's Landing dismembering and castrating men accused of thievery and rape. An awful person. And he's her uncle.
That parts really confusing because there is so much unreliable narrator going on. What is actually happening?
well people ship it because people of all ages simp for people of all ages, theres a diference between a literal child and a 16 year old
Completely agree. Sandor is one of my favourite characters (in the books) but not because I think he's a good man, he's just on an interesting arch to me and I find him and his passages interesting. He's a minor character but very well developed and complex. GRRM has said he's a personal favourite if his and I think that reflects in the extra development he got for a relatively small part in the story, I also think it hints at much bigger things to come for him before the story is done.
Having said that his treatment of both the stark girls is absolutely reprehensible and homeboy gets way too many easy passes from his fandom. The Sansan people are out their fucking minds and I don't care if you try to say "in my mind I just pretend Sansa is older", that doesn't actually make it much better, he's still abusing her, even if she were 25 in the books, he is still abusing her, still scares, intimidates, insults, threatens and physically violates her anytime they are alone together. I've also seen them say "Sandor just needs therapy" like yeah, he does, he's a extremely traumatised young man, and an alcoholic with no healthy coping strategies, but even if he could get therapy (which he can't because that isn't a thing in his universe) it would still be wildly inappropriate for him to end up with someone he personally victimised as a child.
I want to see Sandor on a redemption arch, I want to see good things come his way despite his raging flaws, I want to see him find peace and let go of his deep sadness and rage, but I don't want to see any other person used as a vessel for that.
.
I just wanted to say that the fact Littlefingerhad Sansa act as his daughter-bastard always seemed to me as his attempt to connect himself to Caitlyn because to him Sansa is her daughter (not seen necessarily as hers and Ned's) and by pretending she's his bastard is sort of a fulfilment of a fantasy to the point he even has her hair coloured to match his. But he also can't treat her as his daughter because she is the closest person to him to resemble Caitlyn.
He could at any point say she's one of his workers, his ward from some unimportant small house, or someone whom he picked as heir... have her hair dyed any different colour than red and she could still pass.
Martin says Petyr looks on Sansa as Catelyn come again (his lover) and as the daughter he and Catelyn could have had together. He is messed up, but he wouldn't have sold her to Ramsay like on the show.
This actually reminds me of something from Lolita. Humbert fantasizes about getting Delores pregnant so that when she is "too old" he will have a replacement.
Think about that. Not only is he thinking Delores would be "too old" in her early twenties, he wants to get an adolescent pregnant for the sole purpose of committing pedophiliac incest with his own future daughter!
For Littlefinger, Sansa is like the daughter Humbert wanted. A recreation of her mother, and a daughter figure (he seems to enjoy having her pretend to be his daughter with Sansa calling him father, flattering him, and him "teaching" her in a "fatherly" manner) that he can ALSO exploit.
Great video. You mention Arianne as an example of sexually precocious characters having no trauma, but she's not an exception. Arianne's involvement with Arys Oakheart gets him killed and shakes her enough that she has nightmares about it, as well as playing a role in the breakdown of trust between members of the Martell family and any future consequences of that.
Arianne isn't a child by that time though. Isn't she in her 20s when that happens? I mean I'm not trying to say her trauma over that isn't valid but I don't remember that relationship happening when she was a child. I'm pretty sure the author meant that Arianne had no trauma over having sex so young and being sexually active as young as she was.
You're right that she's ~24 when she seduces Oakheart, and that that's not an ideal example. That said, she does recall having sex at a much younger age, and her confidence charming men suggests (but doesn't confirm) that she's used to using her sexuality as a tool, which isn't exactly healthy considering how young she started.
I probably should've originally commented that it seems like that earlier sexual precocity had affected her such that she would later make poor, ultimately traumatic, choices.
This video is pure perfection for book fans who've spent years explaining to show fans who normalize CSA in the show as wrong. Tyrion, in the books, was simply appalling. While you do feel bad for the abuse he goes through at the hands of his father and others, he is still supposed to be a villain. Even GRRM is supposed to have written him as a villain. I also have had it with people bashing his works because he depicts these issues and condemns them, but they mistake that depiction with glorification. Unfortunately, not everyone looks to understand literature too deeply. One of the reasons why many great works are misunderstood nowadays. LOVE THIS VIDEO! Definitely subscribing to your channel.
GRRM wanted a clear contrast with sanitized Tolkienesque fantasy, but in the process he exagerated things in the other direction, with child marriages, rape, and brothels being more prominent than in an actual medieval society (the books don't set nearly as many scenes in brothels as the series but they're still mentioned everywhere).
The series put everything in a brothel it could. Brothels on the show function as places where large groups of men chat while naked women are used as set dressing.
This 'George went too far" narrative makes zero sense. All brutality in his books happened often during most wars of the era he was inspired by.
It’s amazing how much Nabokov meant the exact opposite of the young girl being the provocateur and how much so many people miss it
6:25 sadly in house of the dragon, we’ve got Corlys Velaryon, who explicitly romantically sought the hand of 16 year old princess rhaenys targaryen when he was 38 (a good 2 years older than her own father prince Aemon). A 38 year old man who groomed his 16 year old cousin will now be a character most likely loved by millions as they gloss over his predatory behavior
If you’re looking for unproblematic faves in fucking game of thrones you’re in the wrong place
I think part of what makes many of the disturbing age gaps more palatable is the fact that in almost all cases, it's explicitly politically driven. Sure, in some instances like Corlys', he did court her to make himself seem a more desireable match, but that was simply the intelligent choice in his situation.
I personally found myself surprised that, while being repulsed at the prospect of Viserys marrying a twelve year-old, I could sort of handle it because it was dealt with in a surprisingly nuanced and respectful way that didn't make light of how fucked up it is and also clearly showed Viserys and Laena BOTH being highly uncomfortable with the situation, putting them kind of on the same page.
Viserys and Alicent, on the other hand, hoo boy. Not only is Alicent a mere three years older than Laena, 15, she was forced into this situation by her father, just like Laena. The difference here is, while Viserys is repulsed by the thought of marrying Laena, he seems all too eager to marry Alicent, just because she was nice to him and kept him company. Alicent is clearly a nervous wreck because of it. The age gap is just as disturbing, but this time, Viserys actually has some feelings for her. Which... just nope. Nope, nope. Luckily, this is not just a terrible look to our modern eyes, it's also a move that will destroy him politically.
Overall, I think HotD gives us a very realistic picture of what political marriages and child marriages looked like in ye olden days where it was sadly way too normalized, while remaining respectful an nuanced on the topic and not becoming gratuitous.
@@magiv4205 You do have to remember that Martin loves the most sensational parts of history and his writing is essentially full of it where-as history isn't quite as bad. Political child marriages were a move of desperation by the upperclasses and thus an exception. Such marriages weren't generally consumated straight away since they were aware 10-15y old isn't exactly ideal child-birthing age. Lady Margaret Beaufort is a notorious one, with a difficult childbirth at 13. So yes it happened, but not quite the norm as it is in Martin's universe, or at least with his leading cast.
Though I do feel it was refreshing HotD showed us the awkwardness with Laena and Viserys, even if with Alicent they romanticize it again. Something GoT avoided because it did way less time-jumping, it'd be very difficult to have an even younger actor play out Sansa or Danaerys' stories.
@@esmee6308 I think you're right. While political marriages were often arranged as children, marriage and consummation usually only happened after the girl had had its first period. Contrary to what many believe, the age with which we get our periods has actually been steadily decreasing, and periods around the world happen at a younger and younger age. So, in the middle ages, 16-17 would actually have been a much more normal marriage age than 13-15, even if those marriages still happened. People outside of the upper class usually married much later too.
@@magiv4205 I thought it was Rhaenyra who was 15. I tried to find Alicent's age but all I found was that in the books she got married at 18. I don't know why they would age her down.
Another victim of CSA and specifically the generational trauma in ASOIAF that is often ignored by the fandom is king Aegon IV, whose father was forced to marry his 23 year old mother at 13 because he was essentially a prisoner. People like to hate on Aegon for being a terrible adulterous husband (which is justified by the way) but fail to see the source of that as the incredibly abusive relationship that his father had with his mother.
does it mean she had him at 10? :o
@@tymondabrowski12 I think Larra was 19 when she married Viserys II who was 12/13 and she had Aegon a bit after that
You mean Aegon IV's father, when he was 10, married Aegon IV's mother when she was 23, right? Not Aegon IV's father married his own mother?
@@HuntingViolets no 10 year age gap. He was 13, she was 23
Viserys got taken hostage as a war prisoner during " The Dance of the Dragons " by Sharako Lohar. He then got sold off to Bambarro Bazanne , then was given to Lysandro Rogare . Lysandro was going to sell him off too until he realized who Viserys really was , then he married him off to his daughter Larra Rogare. After Larra deserted Viserys and their 3 children , Aegon then got sexually involved with Falena Stokeworth due to this when he was a 14-year-old and she was a 24-year-old. Viserys then married Aegon off to his sister Naerys because of this incident.These were the events that led to him becoming " Aegon The Unworthy ".....
OMG, I had never noticed before watching this video but the Tyrion-Sansa-Petyr -story is literally the plot of Lolita, with Tyrion playing the part of Humbert Humbert and Petyr as Clare Quilty.
Well... I literally made a whole ass video comparing ASOIAF to Lolita and did not put this together until reading this comment, so you're still ahead of the curve. 😂
Good catch, really.
This is overall a great video. My reactions:
-I think you underestimated just how fucked Jaime and Cersei's relationship is. Cersei only loves Jaime as an extension of herself. She refers to him as her other half, she prefers him looking like her, etc. Secondly, Cersei constantly manipulates Jaime on a personal level, as well as the direction of his life on a broader level. It's implied that she (at least indirectly) put the idea of appointing Jaime Lannister to the Kingsguard into Aerys's head, which stole Jaime's inheritance from him and was the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of Aerys and Tywin's relationship, and just generally fucked up a lot of shit. Her interactions with Jaime swing wildly from crazed love and passion to deep criticism, scorn, etc when he doesn't do exactly what she wants, and back again. My man is an abuse victim, his entire plotline in Feast is about realizing that even though they love each other, he has to leave Cersei for his own sake.
-While you highlighted how Lysa abuses Petyr, what really interests me about her is how she was abused in turn. Lysa grew up fairly unloved. Catelyn is contemptuous of her when they interact in book 1, and Hoster was an awful father to her. Catelyn was his eldest and Edmure was his heir, but Lysa was, well, neither. Then he forcibly aborted her baby (granted, she only had that baby because she raped Petyr but still deeply fucked up) and married her off to a dude fifty years older than her. Frankly it's not surprising she turned out how she did, don't think she had a healthy relationship with anyone except maybe the Blackfish.
-Finally glad that someone recognized Rhaegar and Lyanna weren't star-crossed lovers. Rhaegar, from an early age, was obsessed with the prophecy about the Prince that was Promised. He was more personally inclined towards scholarship, but he believed he was the PtwP, so he became a fighter. But (and this is where I get into speculation, but I think there's enough to support it) when it became clear that his parents wouldn't give him two siblings (the dragon must have three heads, and yes, eventually Rhaella gave birth to two more children, but there were many more miscarriages) he resolved to father said heads. That's why he named his first two children after the Conqueror and his favorite wife. But his wife was notoriously frail, and she couldn't survive another pregnancy. So instead of literally fucking her to death, he goes out and rapes a child and fucks HER to death. I joke, but Rhaegar was, in technical terms, a piece of shit, Bobby B did nothing wrong.
I wouldn't say King Robert did nothing wrong. He's no better than Rhaegar. He was creepily obsessed with Lyanna and more than happy to kill children. He even would have killed Lyanna's child, and Ned knew it. So did Lyanna. She told Ned to keep him safe from Robert because she knew he would kill the child. Not to mention how dead set he was on killing Dany (who was a child) and her unborn child. He really wanted to kill a child who was pregnant with another child. Two kids in one go. He wanted both dead. He wanted to kill all the Targaryen children. ALL OF THEM. Applauded Tywin for having Rhaegar's kids killed. Aegon was a fucking baby and Robert celebrated that baby being brutally murdered. Then he sent assassins after Viserys and Dany for years. And the second he found out Dany was married, his obsession with killing her got worse and basically peaked when he found out she was having a baby. Ned knew Robert was a piece of shit and lied about Jon's parentage because he knew Robert would've murdered Jon. Jon was a baby and still, Ned and Lyanna both knew Robert would've killed him without hesitation. That's not even getting into his treatment of Cersei, which goes back to the creepy obsession with Lyanna. I mean for gods sake he called her Lyanna during sex their first ever night together. Lyanna was dead and Robert was still fantasizing about fucking her while having sex with his wife. Being drunk isn't even an excuse when that's literally another reason he's a piece of shit. He's a creepy, murderous drunk with a bad temper and a pension for killing babies. Bobby B did plenty wrong.
By the way, this is no way a defense of Rhaegar. But saying Robert did nothing wrong...he was just as bad if not worse than Rhaegar. Actually no, I'm calling it. He was worse. Having been groomed and SA'd as a child, Rhaegar doing that was fucked. But Robert's behavior and obsession with killing kids makes him worse to me. Both are bad. But killing kids narrowly beats out grooming to me. It's not just the Targaryen kids either. Ned (stupidly) told Cersei ahead of time that he was going to expose the incest because he wanted to give her time to escape with the kids knowing full well Robert would've had them killed. Even though Robert had formed a relationship with said kids as he'd believed they were his, Ned knew that would mean absolutely nothing the moment Robert found out. Bobby B would've gone into rage mode and killed innocent children he'd loved as his own which is extremely fucked up but Ned knew that's exactly what Robert would've done. Ned literally said "When the King returns from his hunt I'll tell him the truth. You must be gone by then. You and your children. I will not have their blood on my hands." Admitting right there that Robert would've killed them when he found out. Didn't matter that Robert had raised them and supposedly should've loved them as he believed they were his. All those years of bonding with them as a father would mean absolutely nothing.
Yes, I was surprised there wasn't more in the video about Cersei's abuse of Jaime. And she convinced him to join the Kingsguard to be near her. If someone your own age could groom you, this would be a prime example. Cersei learned manipulation watching Tywin. But Robert did plenty wrong, including abusing Cersei.
@@HuntingViolets Oh, no, I was. I was saying that as someone who's been groomed, what Rhaegar was doing with Lyanna was fucked up, but in my opinion, Robert was worse.
@@margaretconnor5623 When it comes to Robert and Lyanna, to be honest, I never felt like he particularily cared about her personally. Its obvious that he barely knew her as a person. I always felt like his obsession was always more about him marrying into the Starks, getting to be a part of the family and especially, getting to call Ned his brother. Not disagreeing with anything you said about Robert, he was a bad man and him being revealed to be this is really a big part of the deconstructive element of the first ASoIaF novel. But I just personally feel like people ignore how much of Roberts shortcomings and behaviors probably stem from the Trauma of having him see his own parents die. We know that it affected Stannis enough that he became an atheist over it and with Robert, his sex addiction and obsession with Lyanna seemed to have started from this point onward. We know that Robert had his first bastard Mya after his parents died, as she was born roughly 279 or 280, though I personally would bet on 279 and him fathering her while coping with his parents death and that he asked for Lyannas hand afterwards, they were betrothred fairly late in Roberts life. His sex addiction clearly seems like a coping mechanism and I feel like his obsession with Lyanna was the same, he wanted her not for her own sake, but to replace his own lost family. Robert being all about getting back a family of his own also kinda fits with his treatment of Mya Stone, which was untypically affectionate for a father and a bastard child, him going as far as taking Ned with him when he visits her and wanting to have her at his court.
I feel like Roberts obsession with killing Targaryens runs therefore deeper than just petty revenge, it was all about him wanting to utterly wipe out their family for taking away the family he wanted from him.
Can’t believe you didn’t mention the Taena Merryweather incident, Cersei does her best to hurt her intentionally during sex and even fantasizes about mutilating her, even blames her actions on wine. It’s crazy how imo the most disturbing SA scene to me involves Cersei and not the countless other men in the story
People tend to view Lyanna as the Arya of Ned's generation. I feel it would make more sense for her to be the Sansa of her generation with Arya's hobbies. She believes in the stories of knights and nobility and fairy tales. In that case her dislike for Robert makes sense. His actions would not fit her view of a noble prince/lord. On the other hand Rhaegar's actions in Harrenhal might fit her romanticized views of a brooding prince, so I can see why she would be attracted to him.
Sometimes I think the monster that Little Finger is/became is mostly represented by what (all) he did to Jeyne Poole…
Yea, and it makes you think of how many "Jeyne Pools" he has.
Just discovered you today and am catching up on your catalogue. This level of ethical analysis is so needed in the fandom. Not a single thing you'd said so far has missed the mark. In particular, your highlighting of Littlefinger as both a victim as a perpetrator is rarely duplicated.
"She's a Lolita"
Shes a child
"She's mature for her age"
Shes a child
"She consented"
Shes a child
"She wanted it"
She. Is. A. CHILD!!!
Weird that people use "she's a Lolita" as an excuse when the original Lolita book was about a creep and not meant to glorify his actions.
I really appreciate the ideas you bring up about Tyrion and especially Petyr. They are valid points that I admit I hadn't really considered before. We definitely need to learn how to understand and empathize with these kinds of villains without ignoring or excusing their actions.
The problem is you feel you need to empathize with villains at all. Gets in the way of killing them if you ask me.
12:00 It sounds like some people believe the inclusion of these exploitative marriages can only be for one reason or the other when using historical practices to drive home the horror of CSA and the damages of child pregnancy is still very poignant.
A real life series of continuous horrible practices by the people in power: Richard II was 29 he married Isabella of Valois, who was 8 at the time. When he died she was married at 16 to her 11 year old cousin Charles. She later died in childbirth at the age of 19 - a year later when Charles was 16 he went on to marry 11 year old Bonne d'Armagnac and, after her death, 14 year old Marie of Cleves when he was 46. Their son Louis XII was married at 13 to his 12 year old cousin but was later able to annul the marriage. When he was 37 he married 14 year old Anne of Brittany who would have many miscarriages and stillborn children of her own. One of her surviving Claude would be 14 when she married her 19 year old cousin Francis. She died at 24 potentially due to her many pregnancies and miscarriages and honestly it probably just goes on and on.
@@theravenousrabbit3671 Just because we’re aware of the immorality of it today does not make it any less disgusting that they did it in the first place. There’s no excuse for it.
@@urmominc904 True. But when talking about individuals in their time it's still important to note the values of the Era. How would you feel being condemned by future generations for not having their values and calling your current values barbaric?
@@urmominc904 yeah but the point is that you CAN'T go around using modern views to study as society was back then, this was thar people basically died after their 35 and kids was considered mini adults
@@LiNestHetalia People didn't die at 35, that's a misconception. Children's mortality was high, which lowered the average life expectancy. Especially nobility, who had access to good food & medicine and weren't on the very front lines of wars, could expect to live to 60-70 or something. Except, of course, the countless women & girls who died in childbirth.
@@omolisa3783 I'm talking obviously about peasants and also it's not common to live until the 60-70 in medieval Europe, you literally have documentation of nobility obituary and if you lived to your 40 you was already considered older, also medicine wasn't that advanced to guarantee a long life lmao
And still kids wasn't treated as kids, they was considered in the age of working at 10 and marrying at 15 between general population, nobility had arranged marriages between infants to maintaining power, that's basically how things worked back then, childhood being treated as an important stage of life where kids should be allowed to play and develop themselves is a very recent concept in society
Also I'm not condoning children marriage or anything, just don't like people trying twist History so they can portray it with modern views, kids back then was doing more than teenagers today, people needed survive because internet and human rights didn't existed
Great Video, I like that you point out that not only male Characters are abusive, but Women as well.
But I think that a 13-year-old having a crush on a 26-year-old is not as disturbing as a 26 years old acting on it as if the Child is an unproblematic potential Partner. Most of the time the adults in ASoIaF don't act like the responsible and caring adults they should be, but they serve only their Interests. As always the more Mature Person in any kind of Relationship should make the responsible choice and talk with the Child person in this situation and help them to make the right choice for themself. The most common example of such a situation is about a Tween who has a crush on one of their Teachers. Most Teachers, who realize that one of their Students has a crush, will either ignore it, talk with a School Counsellor or with the Parents about how they should act on it. But there are always the bad apples, who abuse the situation, ASoIaF is full of these kinds of Teachers.
And no, these Child-Brides are not a historical accurate Portrayal, especially since the Nobility in RL could be informed by the educated clergy when the "Girl" would be ready to conceive a Child which was most of the time during their 16th to 26th year. When a Child-Bride was married before that Age it was a common Custom that a Priest and the marriage witnesses stayed in the Room during the First Night, where actually nothing happened, just two Kids sleeping next to each other. Even when the Child Bride was married to an older Man, it wasn't that Common that the Marriage was consummated in the traditional sense, there is a reason that there are records of People coming out of the Bedchamber of the Newlywed Couple with an injury when showing the Virgin blood on the Bedsheet. Childhood was interpreted differently during the times, it evolved into that what we today understand as Childhood. Yes, Children over the Age of 7 were used for Political reasons and for Marriage pacts, but the People back then did know that a thirteen-year-old would most likely not survive Childbirth or even Pregnancy. And the worst Case Scenario would be, that the Father uses the death of the Childbride as a reason to go to war against his Son in Law to take revenge for the Death of his Daughter.
It's not as disturbing to be sure, but interestingly George still seems to go out of his way to establish that it's weird. I mean I recall Sansa thinking that Beric Dondarrion was way too old for Jeyne Poole or something, and he's still a few years younger than Tyrion. So even if it's plausible that some tweenage girls could have a crush on an adult man the books pretty clearly established that Sansa isn't one of them, and it feels like GRRM went out of his way to make that clear.
And exactly! Even in the rare occasions where really young women (or men) were married off as children or tweens, they would almost never consummate the marriage because that's a really easy way to get child brides killed. That's actually an even more profoundly disturbing aspect of Dany's marriage to Drogo or Tywin's insistence that Tyrion impregnate Sansa as soon as possible, it shows a clear willingness on the part of the adult men to literally use girls as disposable meat used to obtain heirs, even if it goes against their long-term interests. And I would not be remotely surprised if any of Dany's infertility (if she is truly infertile) is driven by the fact that she was forced to conceive and went through a traumatic birth when she was a pretty petite 13 year old above all else.
@@HillsAliveYT I wasn't sure how you thought about it, because English is not my Mother language. So I thought, tell her your Opinion and if she answers it will be more clear for me, how you think about it. In the case of Sansa, I think it is interesting that we also know about a Crush, she had before she was promised to Joffrey. It was maybe six Months before King Robert came to Winterfell that Lord Royce escorted his third Son Waymar to the Wall. Sansa mentions it AFFC.Waymar was 19 at that time and she was 13, so I think GRRM hints that Sansa prefers Men closer to her own Age than older Men.
I would argue that people did know that a 13 year old most likely would die from childbirth. Back then, it was widely acknowledged that childbirth was one of the most dangerous things a to go through. During the Renaissance period, it was a saying that if a woman was bigger, or in that case, fatter, then she would have a greater chance of surviving. Women who were poor and lived in harsh conditions suffered from malnutrition and were said to have a higher chance of dying during childbirth, if they made it to that point.
@@honestgenz4413 Oh they did know, yes what you say is true, they did think a more full-figured person was more likely to survive Childbirth in contrast to a more slenderly built, but that belief originates because Monks and Nuns transferred their knowledge of Cattle breeding onto Women. If a part of the Countryside didn't have a nearby living midwife, the Pregnant Women did go to the next nunnery for giving Birth or called for a Monk or a Nun, sometimes the Priest when they were in labour. That was also necessary so that there was someone who could give the Child an emergency baptism so that its soul would not go to hell just because it was stillborn and not baptised. And Monks and Nuns would talk about how a young age would affect a calving cow and that would be also true for a Human woman, so that knowledge was spread to some People and became slowly more known.
So yes they did know, but only because they thought that Women's Childbirth and a calving Cow have the same Rules for giving Birth. Just for the Records, I don't think it is flattering to be compared to a Cow.
@@HillsAliveYT I think Dany's infertility is absolutely caused by that factor, because that's the exact thing that happened to Margaret Beaufort once she'd given birth to Henry VII.
I remember reading the first book when I was a teen and thinking that the Danny and drogo was actually very romantic, on my reread much later in life I find the whole affair muuuuch more uncomfortable
I'm really glad for videos like yours because based on a lot of the fandom I am increasingly convinced that most of the fans genuinely cannot read.
The Arya excerpt in TWOW makes it even more obvious. When Arya seduces Raff, one of the other knights goes 'Dude wtf'
A very important perspective to have on this fandom! I keep seeing very famous content where a child, say Sansa, is in a romantic/s*x*@l relationship with a whole adult man. Many of the main characters in ASOIAF are minors (Dany/Jon are 16-ish; Arya is 11; Sansa is 14;) and because Martin wants to portray a "realistic" depiction of their lives, these caracteres (mostly Dany and Jon) have explicit scenes of "adult touching" throughout the books. Although I don't think these are very damaging by themselves some scenes and descriptions, specially of Dany's do not have the same impact in the fandom they should have. The fact that Dany was forced to marry and impregnated at 13-14 is bone chilling. Her descriptions of her r-word and the subsequent pregnancy are terrifying. I think people keep forgetting that Dany is a child, maybe because the show popularized the aged-up version of the characters, and so her story in AGOT is very glossed over not so much as the complete violation of a child's safety and agency that it was and is seen just another icky romantic scene that often happens with female characters in ASOIAF.
Now that HotD is coming out we'll have another controversy with Daemon (mild spoilers ahead). Although I'm not against people admiring the character because he /is/ fascinating and was written to be so. Fire & Blood openly states that he's a p-word-phile. And although I get (sort of) what Martin meant to do with a character like this, it does put the readers in a place where they has to choose to say "oh daemon was great" while ignoring that he was a p-word, or just hating the guts of the guy.
And the thing is (this is my opinion though) I think Martin wrote Daemon to be likable, much like he wrote Starks to be the heroes, the Blackwoods to be better than the Bracken, and the Blacks more interesting then the Greens. And likable doesn't mean good, of course, but it does kind of mean absolving or at least being mild on a characters' most terrible actions. My point is the entire "adult-child" relationship aspect of Daemon's character could have easily been ditched without sacrificing what makes him cool and complicated. Daemon could have been notorious for "adult-touching" older women and still be the rogue and rascal we love to hate, Nettles could have been older than the barely illegal age she had and it would still have had the same impact. I just feel like, specifically in Fire & Blood, Martin got /very/ liberal with his adult-child relationships to the point where it blurred the lines of what the books thought were moral and what the writer wanted us to judge. I think HotD the show will change a lot of that and I'm honestly thankful for it, it just would not look good on TV.
The show will probably gloss over the fact that Daemon groomed his underage niece and later married her. The incestuous marriage will still happen, but the grooming will be too subtle for most people to pick up on, especially if they age up the character of Rhaenyra.
@@shadowfox009x ppl on twitter are celebrating the fact that rhaenrya almost got boned by her uncle so
@@shadowfox009x fuck this world
For those saying It's a different Time and a different culture.
Well...It is, and what? Look a 12 year old IS NOT ready to have consensual sex as we understand It. They're not mature enough to give consent. That's not the law, ask a psycologist. When It happened in the past they also knew they weren't mature enough.
Sex can be TERRIFYING. It's very psycologically taxing and a kid is, according to modern research, better off not indulging in It until they're more developed. Sex at ages so yound, even with consent, can leave people scarred. I've personally known people who went through this and It's traumatic.
So, even though the culture in GOT IS different we can assume biology IS the same. The characters seem to corroborate the debastating effects of this. Danny IS TERRIFIED of Drogo, as IS Sansa in her wedding day. Cersei and Jaime seem to have an awfully truncated view of sex and romantic love. Tyrion has an absolutely crippled LOVE life. Petyr fantasizes with the child of her former Crush... Those are NOT healthy relationships.
We know all the stuff about psychological development, and how much harm CSA causes now. But people didn't know it hundreds of years ago. Which is why if you look at anything to do with marriage in the middle ages, it's full of pairings that by a modern perspective are completely abhorrent. But I think an important thing to mention is a depiction is not an endorsement. Accepting that GRRM is trying to be accurate to the time period ASOIF is based on doesn't negate that a lot is really fucked up. And characters do display that they are traumatized, they just exist in a time and place that people aren't aware trauma is a thing.
Okay, but people also tend to forget the average lifespan of someone in those times was like 35, so marrying young and producing as many offspring as possible in your short lifetime was all any royals wanted to do so they could keep THEIR lineage in power, and the younger you started the more chances you had, that's why as soon as you hit puberty you were an adult. Young boys going into war with no experience just to die on the front lines without getting a chance at love and young women being forced to birth babies by men they didn't actually love who were twice, sometimes even thrice their age and a lot of times dying in childbirth. I'm honestly surprised there weren't more peasant uprisings, cause royals back then were some truly fucked individuals.
People back then also knew that young girls weren’t prepared for these types of relationships. People dreaded marrying off young daughters and it was well known that it was dangerous for young girls to have children.
@@BloodKills most people lived way beyond 35 the average life span is artificially lowered to 35 because of the high infinity mortality. And also those huge age gaps definitely did happen but they weren’t as common as media makes them out to be. And at the time there was a lot of knowledge about the dangers of young girls marrying and having children.
@@BloodKills The idea that everyone in the medieval era died in their mid 30s is a misconception caused by not understanding what "life expectancy" actually means. The *average* life expectancy was so low because infant and child deaths were extremely high.
A hot button issue about the franchise right now. The treatment of women was brought up many a times in the HOTD comic con and they gave the perfectly PR'd answer that it's a different day and women will be portrayed in a different light this go around. Which in turn made the culture warriors go all out with those "nonbinary genderfliud game of woke" edgelord takes and memes. People like to whitewash it as unavoidable (which in a way it is) or write it off as the sin of Game of Thrones, but CSA and genedered violence, both direct and normative, is as ASOIAF as apple pie. It wasn't just Thrones, you can argue George explored these themes more in depth and with particular prejudice than any period fiction of the last 25 years. So "it was the middle ages" is not a catch-all answer for a balancing act that should be way more nuanced. The part about Littlefinger's erased trauma and Tyrion's villainy resonates with me in particular. I always looked at Tyrion as a villain. It's crazy that none of the 'the real tyrion lannister' type character analysis video essays go beyond the surface level of "he was actually very witty and dunked on everyone in king's landing". I always think do you guys not see what I saw in the Tyrion Sansa relationship? Or you just think it's unimportant compared to witty verbal jousting with his Infallible God Daddy. George has said his ending is still going to be bittersweet. But I don't think George can do a straightforward Dany turn anymore (yes Mhysa Was Always Master). In that case I would absolutely like to see Tyrion as a Richard III type villainous figure.
Yes totally agree on Tyrion, he is a villain that is easy to sympathize with at points but a villain all the same. It can both be true that he was horrifically abused and essentially raped by his own father and that he tends to objectify the fuck out of a multitude of young girls that he has a great deal of power over and that he doesn’t conceptualize as human beings that exist outside of his wants and needs.
isn't the common consensus that the imp is a villain? doesn't the man say he will be the monster they think him to be?
I can’t see him as the villain of the story because the story is full of people who could be villains. The story doesn’t necessarily come down on any brand of morality. Everybody seems to be some flavor of gray, Tyrion included
I've always seen Tyrion as a villainous figure within the story. Yeah he is a witty underdog that has lived a harsh life based on no fault of his own (being born a dwarf and killing his mother) which makes the audience root for and feel an instant connection with him. However, his pity for himself has evolved into a deep-rooted sense of narcissism and this weird justification that he deserves success because he has suffered. He surrounds himself with people that multiply his ego like Bronn and Shae (both are only in it for the money and he knows that). He also makes stupid moves like sending Slynt to the wall and making an enemy of Littlefinger and Pycelle, just to fuel his narcissism and to make himself feel like he is in control of the situation. Some of his internal thoughts are also disgusting along with depraved actions like him promising the Vale to the Stormcrows, him threating to rape Tommen, and his twisted feelings for Sansa are dead giveaways that this isn't someone to idolize.
It is more subtle in the first three books, but it comes to the forefront the moment that he kills Shae for having sex with Tywin despite her only being a child that wanted money (something that he knew the moment that he met her). In ADWD he frequently fantasizes about raping and killing and burning. And he takes advantage of Griff's rashness and Connington's limited amount of time to convince them to go to Westeros rather than meeting Daenerys, just to sow seeds of chaos, and this event is something that probably is going to end in disaster. The way that he treats Penny who remains optimistic despite being dealt a similar (and maybe equally as bad) hand in life is also something that feels like a ticking time bomb. Book-Tyrion is definitely not a hero.
How many times does George have to say it : "This is a story about a fscked up time and fscked up people who might not see the forest for the trees until it is too late" ? If you are still crying about the brutality and injustice that has always been an on-going them in this saga....then I don't know what else is there left to say.
GRRM never tells us what to think about the abuse, he just shows it, shows what it leads to, shows how people (victims and perps) react and how their lives are warped. Like Shakespeare, he shows you how the perps are often victims themselves. Also like Shakespeare, he shows how these are signs that things are not right in the relationship between the gods and the rulers and the people and the land.
Absolutely agree with this point. I believe it is also a point in the books that Sansa is only 11 when she is betrothed to Joffrey but won't wed him till she is 14 (not sure about this, and still way to young ofcourse). And also the scene where lord Frey is creeping on his young new bride, who is 15, is quite clearly to portray him as a vile man. And it is clearly shown in the books and the series that the girls who are married off this young, to older men, are victims (Sansa and Danny being main characters, but also the Frey girls or Crasters wifes).
So I study ancient history and have had a keen interest in history generally . This issue occurs around child marriage in history . Age of consent didn’t really exist it was parents who decided it (obviously very young children couldn’t have sex). Additionally children (by our standards ) were socially conditioned or raised in a different way generally speaking from from 11-13 you become an adult (varies a lot between time periods and location) even childhood before that one was raised differently to how one does today . The “cult of childhood” didn’t really start until the 19th century. So yes today we would consider a 12 year old as a child but historically that wasn’t always the case (generally). If one is raised to believe one is an adult when they become 12 it changes things. HOWEVER that doesn’t excuse how even in 300 BCE a 12 year old would still have an under or rather yet to develop brains thus wouldn’t understand things the same way a 40 year old would. Also they wouldn’t have general experience to the world thus can’t consent . I’m by no means excusing CSA historically (in real life) historical/ historical based fantasy based fiction, fiction generally. Referring to my early point just because one was raised thinking mercury was safe doesn’t undo how wrong it would be to eat it given it is poison. Same with CSA , just because one is raised to think 12 years old is an expectable age to be married , doesn’t equate to it being so
Lady Margeret Beaufort was married to Jasper Tudor at the age of 11. Her only child, Henry VII, was born when she was 13. She never carried another child to term. Unfortunately, women forced to marry and bear children at a very young age was common amongst the upper classes in during the middle ages.
The number of women who died in childbirth was astounding. To add insult to injury, at some points in history dying before you could be "churched" (4 to 6 weeks after birth) was thought to mean that the women died unshriven and was destined for Hell.
But this is also why Margaret prevented her granddaughters from being married before their 15th birthday, as she argued to her own son that it could actually kill them and therefore weaken the dynasty. She gave him her first-hand experiences as evidence and Henry VII. backed off, making only vague premarital contracts for his daughters.
Another issue is that marriages of children with adults were in the middle ages understood as political aliance and often grown men didn't need their 12 yo wife to reproduce - they took mistresses. Empress Matilda, daughter of Henry I., was married at a crazy young age of 8 to Emperor Henry V. and after he died was treated with all respects a widow, despite ever being physically involved with her husband. That was possible in XIIth century, but after Black Death children were dying young and parents feared for the future of their land and possessions more than their offspring, which seemed replacable (especially for men, as women were getting menopause earlier and lost their chances to give birth healthy children much earlier). This led to 10 yo Catarina Sforza (XVth century), giving birth since 12th birthday almost every year, up to her late 20s, and most of these children died prematurely, were severely disabled or born dead already.
Earlier middle ages were less extreme about the age gap, as no one wanted to risk marrying a young girl/boy, who will die soon after big celebrations and other Investments were made for them; post-plague Europe was heavily paranoid of not securing one's future and therefore many child marriages and pregnancies, which lead to more death in childbed.
It was Edmund Tudor she married. Not Jasper. Jasper was Her brother by law. Due to her marriage to Edmund.
Another uncomfortable example that is never mentioned is Jon and Ygritte. His 15 to her 19, is , according to modern law , child sexual exploitation. She is dominant and manipulative, and Jon is somewhat exploited , or at least pressured by his circumstance, to kee having sex with Ygritte, though he is very internally conflicted, which I would say makes his consent somewhat shoddy. The text absolutely offers no criticism , it’s portrayed as nothing but a tragic love affair. Fans couldn’t care less either. Makes me think Martin thinks children can sometimes have sex with adults and it’s fine. Martin generally hugely over estimates the capabilities and maturity of kids and teens anyway. I just wonder why Martin made those the ages. Why not make Jon 16 and her 18. That would be within the realm of acceptability. Make her 17 why not.
Definitely a case of “the boy should lucky an older woman wants him”
It could also be a case that people generally so used to viewing males as having the dominant/responsible role in the relationship that they aren't prone to spotting/acknowledging sexual exploitations done by women towards men.
I disagree with your statement that "the text ... offers no criticism...". You've literally stated Jon's internal state which IS the text telling us it's wrong. Also, in the books, Ygritte literally blackmails Jon to have sex lest she ratted him out to other Wildlings
@@mkkm1701 Jon's internal conflict is that he wants to have sex with her, and also wants to keep his vows and not create a bastard. The conflict is > Love/Passion V Duty/Honour. Hes not distressed or harmed by the sex (or relationship fundamnetlaly), he enjoys it, falls more in love with her, and then its tragic becuase their true love has to be shattered because he choses Duty over Love. He then remembers her completely positively, aside from the guilt he feels about betraying her. There is zero acknowledgement in the text that she was an abuser, or caused Jon harm. In the text, Jon is the one portrayed as causing harm to Ygritte.
@@mkkm1701 Yeah disagree there. Nobody not even Jon reprimands her for her actions or implies how messed up it is. The conflict was Jon's vows. The text explicitly acts like this is consensual and there is no issue.
Great video. One way of reading the series is as a study of the effects of multiple intersecting traumas on almost all of the characters in a violent patriarchal society, in both childhood and adulthood. Thanks.
I can’t stop watching your A song of Ice and Fire analyses. They’re so interesting and makes me completely reevaluate what I assumed to be true in the books. It’s really shows the genius of Martin and the complex moral questions he poses.
Oh… I didn’t realize Lyanna age when she died. Or rhaegar age when he died… okay I need to completely reconsider my perspective on this whole thing
This is a very interesting read, I never paid too much attention to the CSA cases in the books because of how deeply uncomfortable they were (having to skip whole chunks of Sansa and Dany chapters), but you present your conclusions very concisely. ty
Man. I'm really digging these vids. Glad I happened to stumble upon this channel. Hell yeah good shit. Like really good shit. Like well researched and well articulated shit that no one else seems to want to even think about. Got a new subscriber from me.
very interesting perspective, making Martin's storytelling more profound. Also implications about how abuse functions in the contemporary power structures
Hi!
I have many thoughts of this. First off, thank you for being so respectful about this topic and willing to make a deep dive. I have seen a few SA victims (but way more non SAV folk) dismiss ASOIAF as glorification for its depiction of various seggsual traumas. I couldn't always put my finger on why i felt like this wasn't the case, so I am grateful for this analysis.
Its sad that people on both sides view GRRMs unwillingness to virtue signal as complicity. How he handled this difficult perspektive is in my mind a good (be it not perfect) way.
Unfortunatly I was once in the "Historical Acuracy" Squad, although in a different way. The show in my mind depicts the age range of arranged marriages a bit better that the book, but stirring away from that (since it is complicated and I am not qualified to make calls like that) there are other things I found important.
GRRM was looking to depict a fantasy world that was grimmer and darker than what he grew up with in tolkien. He shows acts of horror, that did happen in Medieval times, such as war, intruiges, injuries and SA. Showing SA or Seggs in general as depicted is part of that 'grimm' part that he shows, but doesn't condone. So in that sense I saw that as part of 'historical accuracy' although i can see how flawed that perspective can be.
Thanks again and have a nice day
Fr, the fandom seems to be willing to see Drogo and Danys relationship as bad but they seem to think Jon and Ygritte who have a similar age gap is "the best love story in the books"
What? Jon and Ygritte were 15 and 19. Dany and Drogo were 13 and 30. How is that a similar age gap?
Best in the whole series does not entail best ever writen.
Great video, I loved it
Another theme that seems to be connected to this is the many cases of the loss of parents, especially OF MOTHERS, at a young age. Tyrion, Dany, Sansa, arguably Cersei, all lose their mothers young.
We get to know them and we just know that poor Robin Ayryn does not have a chance without his rather awful mother.
And Jaime.
Thank you for making this video. I'm a big fan of the series and its important that these issues need to be discussed
I am so glad you did this work. The one thing I will add is that in real medieval history and even earlier children were betrothed and even groomed for relationships with adults from birth. As GRRM apparently drew a lot of inspiration from the wars between the Yorks and Lancasters, one of the most crucial players in those events was Margaret Beaufort. She was forced not only to become a child bride at 12, but against contemporary standards she was also forced to consummate the marriage immediately resulting in the harrowing birth of her only child. Many believe she was driven mad by both.
Years later her great granddaughter lost her emotional security and nearly her life when her guardian sexually abused her and implicated her in a plot to undermine the king. It's pretty obvious that Sansa and Petyr's relationship was modeled after those events.
Margaret was also considered very young even for her time period. That wasn't a normal age for marriage and kids.
CSA still regularly happens today, too. That doesn't mean society as a whole thinks it's normal or okay - so I don't know why you'd make that exact assumption about medieval times. Just because it happens, that doesn't mean society doesn't frown on it.
@@LordofFullmetal Well, because we're talking about fictional stories and histories from the medieval era. That is the context of the video and my reply. Rather than being offended that I replied using Margaret Beaufort as an example (and clearly said that against tradition she was bedded early), you can make your own reply to the creator of the video asking why she's making videos on GOT and not Euphoria.
This was really interesting, thanks for choosing to engage with these topics. It's really easy to read about these things and just choose not to think about them because they are so uncomfortable. I was pretty young when I started this series so I was shocked into not acknowledging the subtext. You definitely brought a lot of things to light that I never would have realized.
Seeing people continually not be able to grasp that this is mature content fantasy based on our own sordid tapestry of history and isn’t for everyone is perpetually exhausting.
I question if child / adult relationships in Asoiaf always results in clear Trauma that is ‘unmissable’. I literally can’t think of any negative consequence Dany experience as a result of Drogo. She falls in love with him, is distraught at his death, names a dragon after him, remembers him fondly, and Carries on his culture. It makes me concerned that Martin really has portrayed this as a true love story.
It's Stockholm syndrome. Dany needs therapy to sort it out.
@@BillyBasd Is there any evidence of that in the text?
Trauma doesn’t work the same way for all people. Dany’s trauma is something else, namely the lack of security, protection and support and her relationship with Khal Drogo, as problematic as it is in our modern eyes, provided her a way to escape it and change her whole life. Gaining security and even authority through marriage was a big, big thing for women in violent and aggressively patriarchal societies and Dany’s perception reflects a common and natural reaction in her circumstances. This was as close to a marriage of “true love” as most people could get, especially at a time when marrying for love was not really a thing to begin with.
@@saikeenra I completely agree with your interpretation, but there is still no evidence of trauma at all in the text - it can only be presumed to exist through modern interpretation that her lack of apparent trauma must imply trauma or something.
Well, for one, the first time they have sex we basically get a first on view on the rape of a child. Danny in general, seems to think of herself as way more mature than she really is. Part of the trauma of being sexually asaulted by drogo, and generally thrown into sexual relationships so soon, was her abrupt jump into adulthood, when she's clearly not psycologically or intelectual ley ready yet. Danny IS a kid with three dragons Who wreaks as much as she liberates. I think that's the tragedy of Daenerys. Everyone treats her as if she was 10 years older and she treats everyone as if they were 10 years older, because she has no concept of "kid".
Her view on romantic relationships IS also deeply stunted as shown when she wanted the abusers to marry their victims. In her mind the victims Will learn to LOVE their abusers just like she did with drogo.
There are actually many more instances of this that I think perfectly align with this message but are so often glossed over or whitewashed. One big example being Jon and Ygritte. For one, she is older than him and definitely seems more sexually confident and experienced but on top of that Jon is essentially a captive of the wildlings at this point. In the beginning it’s very obvious he doesn’t want to have sex with Ygritte and I don’t just think that its just because of his commitment to honor and upholding his vows. It seems like he’s genuinely made uncomfortable by the whole situation but in the end he has very little choice in the matter. If he can’t prove his loyalty he faces the possibility of being killed and/or tortured and I do think Ygritte takes advantage of that fact. In the end he rationalizes, “makes the best of the situation”, and does seem to develop some real feelings for her but the relationship did begin very exploitative and ends in tragedy. The fact that she feels genuinely betrayed and shoots him when he does finally escape from his captors is also telling. And it’s pretty clear that Ygritte’s whole perception of sex and relationships is very skewed.
I think another example that is somewhat related is with Robb and Jeyne Westerling. In a moment of physical vulnerability (having taken a wound in battle and being bedridden) and emotional vulnerability(being betrayed by Theon and thinking his brothers have been killed) it appears that the Westerlings manipulate events so that he’s pushed to marry their daughter. Not that I blame Jeyne herself, since we didn’t get any POVs around the situation we know very little about what actually went down. It could be that she wasn’t in on the plan or was coerced into it but from what we see from her family and mother in Jaime’s later chapters makes me believe it could have been a setup.
Thank you so much for posting this. It is sad but this really needed to be addressed.
I kind of feel that Jon/Yigrett could fit in this narrative as well. :(
Yeah definitely, honestly there were a few other dynamics that I would have included but I just stopped because it was getting super long. Ygritte coercing Jon into a relationship is overlooked by almost everyone though.
This video is so good. I love how you deep-dive into the ASOIAF universe and pull from their perspectives.
Awesome video! I'm glad to see these things be acknowledged for once in a community that is all too comfortable romanticizing the abduction of a young girl because something something prophecy said it has to happen. I hadn't given it much thought before, but there are indeed many parallels between ASOIAF and Lolita in terms of how their shared themes of sexual exploitation and abuse have been misconstrued and warped in their visual adaptations, TV and film respectively. Tyrion, while an interesting character, falls farther and farther from whatever grace he had as the books progress, but because he started out as a fan favourite (in the TV show especially), people are willing to turn a blind eye to his crimes or place blame elsewhere. Showrunners included apparently, since they've consistently watered him down to make him more digestible for general audiences. I'd argue this also goes hand in hand with the way readers and show viewers (mis)understand sexism and misogyny in ASOIAF, which has been grossly perpetuated by the show for shock value with wavering depth and meaning. GoT is willing to frame Shae's murder as her comeuppance instead of violence against a powerless woman, all to preserve Tyrion's likeability.
Even GRRM notes that Shae kinda had it coming since she was only in this for wealth and power tho. And yeah I generally agree. Being in a lower strata doesn't absolve you from being a prick. Everyone who does bad stuff deserves comeuppance. But the show did remove all moral ambiguity to be sure, seen where Shae begs for her life and Tyrion let's himself believe they loved each other rather than...you know, paying her services.
Justice for Shae!
@@stephenjenkins7971 Why shouldn't she have been in it for wealth (not sure about the latter)? That was what Tyrion offered her, that was the deal he made with her. He wanted the "girlfriend experience"; he didn't contract for her to love him for real (he couldn't), and she didn't have much choice or chance against Tywin and Cersei.
@@HuntingViolets Nothing wrong with doing everything you do for your own self-benefit, just don't be surprised when others have no moral compunctions with offing you. I believe ditto with Tyrion; everything that happened to him he had coming -regardless of his sob story.
I think Ned looks at all the kids as what they are, kids… But others, even Cersei by the way she looks at Sansa, look at the kids as being able to reproduce or not. Just my thought
I've watched so many videos but this is an angle that i hadn't heard someone speak on.. Really great
I know I shouldn't judge Asoiaf from modern life perspective, because it's a fantastic story with a middle age concept. And young girl/boy marriages were common in middle age. But still, it makes many relationships in Asoiaf problematic for me.
Dany and Drogo's relationship is the clearest example of that. Drogo was a men in his late 20s and Daenerys was only 13 (turned to 14 when she got pregnant). I love Jason Moama, so it was hard for me to hate Drogo in the show, and Emilia Clarke was 22 during the first season. So, their relationship in the show was sort of acceptable. But the books make it so disturbing, even though Dany wanted to have sex with Drogo in their first night, it doesn't change the fact that she literally got r@ped for weeks or maybe for months. It got so unbearable for her, at some point, she wanted to commit suicide.
Lysa Arryn is another victim. For me, she's one of the most tragic characters of the series and the only reason why I don't like Hoster Tully. While yes, she technically r@ped Baelish when he was wounded (which is very disgusting), she got pregnant by him. But her own father tricked her into drinking moon tea and made her abort the child. As result, she lost her unborn child and almost died. And the moon tea damaged her body so badly, she was no longer able to give birth to a child (except Sweet Robert). Also, she was forced to marry Jon Arryn, a men who was old enough to be her grandfather. Because Jon was an old men and Lysa's reproductive system was damaged, she had many miscarriages.
Also, Tommen Baratheon is another example. That corrupted, male-dominated system was terrible for both men and women. Tommen was only an 8 year old boy when he was married to Margaery Tyrell who was 16 in the moment. Yes, they didn't have something sexual, but it was still disgusting to wed an 8-9 old boy (I don't blame Marg here ofc, she was used by her father and grandmother as a political pawn)
It's male dominated only in that common men have slightly more rights, which is still near nil. The real power was concentrated in the nobility, though that also had male dominated leanings. Regardless the issue lies in the feudal system first and foremost.
It was never normal in human society for children to be married off. Even in the middle ages, child marriages were reserved for royalty - and those usually took place at 15 or 16. There was an understanding even then that you shouldn't have those feelings for children.
@@stephenjenkins7971 It's male-dominated both among commons and nobles, maybe except Dorne. Let Cersei explain it:
"When we were little, Jaime and I were so much alike that even our Lord Father could not tell us apart.
Sometimes as a lark, we would dress in each other's clothes and spend a whole day as the other. Yet even so, when Jaime was given his first sword, there was none for me.
'What do I get?' I remember asking, we were *so much alike,* I could never understand why they treated us *so differently.*
Jaime learned to fight with a sword and lance and mace, while I was taught to smile and sing and *please.*
He was heir to Castarly Rock, while I was to be *sold to some stranger* like a horse, to be ridden whenever *my new owner* liked, *beated* whenever he liked, and *cast aside* in time for a younger filly.
Jaime's lot was to be glory and power.
*While mine was birth and moonblood."*
@@LordofFullmetal I know and I already pointed it out in my top commen. But even so, the fact that these stuff were happening in the real life, doesn't make them any less disgusting.
@@teamblack204 I never denied that, I only put it into perspective. I said the main issue was that it was feudal system, and despite Cersei's crying, she was in such a position of power that she could order her servant girl to "disappear" without consequence. Her being treated differently is an issue, but the MAIN issue was the structure that allows people like her to get away with the most disgusting actions.
Edit: Also, to be blunt, Cersei has a massively overinflated faith in male power. She wished she was a man to fight her own battles personally while also being terrified at fighting people personally -she's a cry bully that wouldn't make it as a man at all as male cowards are treated as less than dirt. No question its male dominated, but there are a LOT of asterisks involved.
The video essay this fandom needed, especially with HOTD coming out very soon!
Really good video that truly goes beyond the surface. Good job!
It's really screws up your head dealing with $exploitation at an early age... And what's worse is it's so incredulously common... My own grandfather did unspeakable things with many of his female grandchildren and we were all just expected to forgive him and move on, fu*ked up in the head for the rest of our lives...
I’m so sorry you went through that, I hope you’re doing better now.
I had some things that happened to me as a teenager. People at that time made excuses for that person too. Some don’t get that victimizes the victim even worse
Actually, what I get from this, is that it's actually very disturbing to "age up" the characters in the series. George made clear that the characters are really young, too young for sex. The fact that the characters are aged up, waters down this message and normalises the abuse.
11:18 that is indeed more interesting as the age gap between the two is a lot smaller. Viserys is 5 years older than Aemma. Legally speaking both of them were minors when they got married. They were both victims of the ambitions of their parents. To both prevent the dance of the dragons and to have more age appropriate relationships, Viserys should have married rhaenys (2 years older) then Aemma can marry daemon at a much older age later (daemon is only a year older).
I really hate the argument that this is written in to add to 'historical accuracy' rather than to make a point about trauma. I think you did an excellent job of outlining how GRRM uses this specific kind of trauma as a micro-example of his overall theme of 'war/violence is a cycle.' While undoubtedly women and children suffered in Medieval Europe and were exploited as they are today, there are records showing that men who did so were punished, if not legally, then publically by the church. It was just as reprehensible then as it is today.
As we see with Sansa and Joffrey and Margery and Tomen, yes noble children were engaged earlier, and sometimes were married very young, but no they were not expected nor allowed to consummate these marriages until it would be 'for children.' This meant that most noble girls were not sexually active with their spouses until 16/17, given that puberty did start later. Obviously, that is still bad! Patriarchial Medieval Europe was full of nasty cultural practices, but not even those included the kind of severe CSA shown in the world of Ice and Fire. I just think it's important to know this so that if creators claim that rape and abuse are historically necessary, you can see it as an excuse to shoehorn in their own twisted interests (if they aren't using it as a device or exploring it like GRRM is in these cases).
In most media not only do they show it in better lighting than they should but ALSO they often don't write children as children with adults being adults, ESPECIALLY main characters.
Add in that they're often orphans or otherwise "emancipated" from their parents in the story so they can even have their adventures...
You end up with unaccompanied minors written to be fully formed enough to do often inhuman tasks like saving the world around adults who are written as secondary/tertiary or background characters.
Meaning age is given no meaning of definition and you often don't get to see how different adults are in the story to teenagers and younger characters.
You also don't get to see any predatory thoughts or intentions unless they're SPECIFICALLY trying to make them rapists, with their depictions more often than not being very stereotypical and "textbook" because nuance is harder to write.
It's frustrating honestly how many characters honestly have no justification for most of their traits.
Their gender, sex, sexuality, race, age, ect...seemingly have no effect on them, even in situations where it should most definitely affect them.
I think this might be why so many love GoT, the characters exist for a reason and their traits ACTUALLY affect them.
What an interesting analysis, thanks, I’ve never viewed the series this way
This is an awesome perspective! I love ASOIAF and I feel like there is so much content there to dive deep onto.
reminding us exactly why living in a medevil fantasy would be a horrible experience.
eye-opening and insightful. Naturally knew a lot of this from Dany to Petyr were messed up, but completely missed the ramifications of it. I haven't read the books, but feel like the show kinda dropped the ball on this theme, not that it was really focused on it for obvious reason, but the damn might helped with Dany's madness in the final.
Wow. Just wow. Amazing analysing, revealing things that need to be laid bare and open to the community.
Littlefinger is a quite interesting mess. He has to decide whether he wants to have power through Sansa or Sansa herself.
That is going to make the next books interesting.
Right, wrong, or indifferent, GOT is a glamorized reflection of 1400s-ish England. This child bride practice was common for all classes to have girls (in particular) marry very young. This was done for reasons that we don't really consider these days- mostly life expectancy and child mortality. Other factors were having more time to have more children to either work in the lower classes or pawn as bargaining chips for marriage and political spots in the upper classes.
To put things into perspective. Just maybe 60 years ago the average age for a woman to get married in the US was 20. Today we tend to think that's young.
Now imagine 600 years ago. Was 12 or 13 year old brides really that unreasonable for THAT time period where the average person maybe died before 40? They lived for such a short time mostly because of lack of medical knowledge or access- infant/child mortality, plagues, childbirth, wounds/infections that were untreatable back then; and also there were wars, raids, and less safe working/hunting/traveling conditions.
What's really unfortunate is that there are still countries in this very day and age that condone arranged childhood marriage. Also, let's not forget the victims of human trafficking EVERYWHERE, but mostly in same countries that normalize pre-teen marriage.
Things we don't find acceptable now were oftentimes the norm way back in other times and places. We don't have to like the practice but from their perspective, it was acceptable.
I have been devouring asoiaf content ever since I watched the show a few months ago. I plan on reading the books eventually, but I wanted to say thank you for making these videos. This topic in particular is so important for the fandom and well as having a female creator in the space. I really like your videos!
Just discovered you, very interesting! I honestly don’t remember Tyrion being so creepy but it’s been a few years since I’ve read the books or seen the show. Plus I’ve always been fond of him as a character so maybe I forgot the creepy parts in general. Now I want to read the books again!
Ill never forgive the fandom & show for romanticizing lyanna and rhaegar relationship
Grooming and CSA of minors at the hands of charismatic characters water down the effects of abuse in the average audience's eyes and greatly desensitize them towards it.
Another great & insightful video!! 💜
I think that this is only true for relatively uncritical readers. For all of the author's flaws, he seems pretty good at illustrating the effects of childhood sexual trauma and other forms of trauma, rather than watering down it's effects. I think that the effects of trauma on its survivors is a major theme in the texts, right there to be seen by any readers capable of seeing it.
@@globalhumanism Yes. But the show-runners couldn't. And the usual audience members are consumers of media more, so the criticism was almost absent.
Great analysis of this topic!
Wow, hell of a presentation! I think the series as a whole does an amazing job of digging into the horrible psychology behind CSA, but it’s worth pointing out a couple of things about stories along these lines. First, they definitely do have a historical precedent. Not an excuse, just an explanation. Second… Stories like this very rarely have actual “good“ guys. It’s easy to look at the abusive people and appreciate them earning their just rewards. But it looks like life in this environment is either short and brutal, or long and eventually desolate. I’m not sure any of these characters necessarily have a happy ending, abuser or otherwise. It’s as though the entire novel were thought experiment, but there’s no “control group”.