Why Everyone Hates Sansa Stark (& Why They're All Wrong)
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- Sansa Stark is undoubtedly one of the least popular protagonists of A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones. But why do people hate her so much, and why are their interpretations of her character almost always wrong?
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Intro
01:14 The Myth That Sansa Is Regina George
04:27 The Myth Of Sansa's Stupidity
09:05 Sansa's Relationship With Power
13:10 Sansa Is The New Littlefinger/Cersei
17:16 The Reflexive Rejection Of Traditional Femininity
22:19 Sansa Is Not A Fantasy Character
26:13 Sansa Exposes Fan-Favorite Characters
29:21 She's A Subject Of The Story Instead Of An Object
32:56 Conclusion 
Развлечения
People see a slightly spoiled and sheltered feminine teenage girl and deem those traits to be literally worse than rapists, likely because they realise Sansa is the most like the reader of any character (sheltered, ignorant, obsessed with fantasy and ineffective in a fight) and they hate seeing themselves like that when they want to see themselves as Jon Snow. People hate that Sansa acts and behaves like what 99.99% of people would in that position because it destroys their wish fulfilment
Yeah I completely agree, she's a realistic character in a largely unrealistic story so it's incredibly uncomfortable to realize that her mundanity and experience probably mirrors the audience far more than any of the other main characters.
@@HillsAliveYT people always hate the Everyman when he (or she) actually acts like how a person would act, especially when said character is a teenage girl
@@emilybarclay8831 Totes, and I get why people might not want that in a fantasy story, but I think having that character who doesn't need superpowers to endure abuse or move on to a better life afterward is a really great character to include for people who have been abused.
@@HillsAliveYT my thoughts exactly. Sansa’s arc has the potential to act as the human centre and heart for the story at large
So true 👏🏻
I think a lot of people who criticise Sansa don't remember that at the start of the books she's eleven years old. Of course she's naïve and overly trusting of others. She's a child who was raised far away from the various wars and political intrigue she ends up caught up in.
because she's boring and had a ton of undeserved plot armor
I agree. She was ignorant because her father was naive. Ned doomed everyone
@@scambammer6102 in the show*
I hate show Sansa as much as the next guy but book Sansa is a-ok with me
Robb is about the same age yet he did so much in his short life. He was a true soldier and great tactician, he just lacked strategy and policy. Sansa just sucked. Trash ass character who, in the real medival world would be used for babies and nothing more. She should of never been made queen
@@johnnyjoestar5193 Robb was a man tho, correct me if I'm wrong but he'd have to wise up faster than her.
I actually love that there’s an emphasis on the fact that Sansa is really good at “traditionally female” things like doing her hair and making her own clothes. In the show, everyone dismisses her hobbies, while in the history these skills would have views as a great value
Yes!! In the middle ages if you couldn't make or at least fix your own clothes you were kinda screwed. Sure, they did have seamstresses but it wasn't considered "girly" to be able to sew. It was as vital of a skill as making bread
I think that's why, towards the end, Sansa is one of the worst characters.
A lot of the characters in the show keep their qualities, which either helps them or leads them to death (Ned, Rob, Tywin)
Sansa is the only character on the show who loses their great qualities and doesn't gain any honorable ones(Being cunning and wanting to be the 'Queen of Winterfell' aren't necessarily honorable values)
In the beginning she is extremely effeminate and when she goes south she blossoms, her hair and dresses and joy are more vibrant. And then she's the first Stark to make it back to Winterfell and they show none of the qualities that make us fall in love with her. Her hair is darker, she's dressed in darker clothes, her joy is fake, she's colder. She's still whiny, she's cunning but not 'really' intelligent. Arya stays fierce, Jon stays a hero.
I actually really liked Sansa, and drifted away from because of this
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 sansa is basically the only useless character out of the stark kids
Jon is fire jesus
Bran and rickon are super magical
Arya is a magic assassin
Sansa... kinda sucks; she is not even a warg and she basically doesn't do anything important in the whole story, she's a realistic character in a world that's not about that and... she'll never do anything important even in the books, politics are not the deal, frost satan is, so at the end she'll probably be a meh character
@@fabioviti7384 Sansa was a warg. You can blame Arya and Cersei for her not developing her talents because her wolf was literally murdered because of their actions. You can't be a warg without an animal you've bonded to. The only reason why Jon, Bran, and Rickon are the powerful wargs they are is because their relationship with their animals were nurtured enough to develop those skills.
While you have a small point, those were all designs from the show-runners and production staff. I don't see you complaining about everyone else also wearing those same darker clothes and color schemes. The entirety of season 7 and 8 have the entire cast move into those dark clothes with colder demeanor. To me it shows how close winter has come, they can't visually make the show too dark because it will mess with the graphics. So you show the darkness through tone, character dialogue, and costume.
You seem really nitpicky about Sansa when everyone got shit on by this show and it's super hypocritical.
@@MissSimone02 sansa wasn't a warg, she is the only one out of the stark pups (pun) who isn't; also, a warg can warg into almost everything, arya warged into a cat which she never even met once.
Jhon is not a powerfull warg at all, he is a very skilled fighter; bran is probably non even bran anymore and rickon is a powerfull warg.
And i never talked bout the show nor the costumes... also, they cannot make the show too dark?; 8x03 says otherwise
Sincerely, wtf are you talking bout?, I never once even mentioned the fact that she wears black, sansa is simply the only character out of the bunch who isn't supposed to be a main character, everyone is doing something to get stronger as sansa is, not her fault obviusly, basically getting abused around; I dislike sansa because it's simply a spectator who does almost nothing and it's an object to use for the really important characters
sansa was raised as a lady, to marry a pretty Lord and raise his children. of course she falls for Joffrey at first. she was groomed to from birth. Cat and Ned sheltered her and let her read her stories and lose herself in songs and fantasies. Sansa had no choice to report Ned to the Crown, to her Joffrey and the Lannisters were her new family. Ned agreed to a marriage between Sansa and Joffrey knowing that Joffrey is a horrible little boy. He put her there, in that situation, a situation he did NOT prepare her for. Sansa was a pawn in her family to be married off and sold as a broodmare for whoever buys her. It is vile how people vilify her. she was a CHILD being sold to a cruel and manipulative family who only saw her as a womb.
Sansa is my favourite character in the series and I thank you for this video.
Yes, I gained a lot of respect for Sansa as well. She was exactly groomed from birth, and living close to someone as psychotic as Joffery, that would have been terrifying as hell.
Early-Sansa embodies the old timey notion of "treating your daughter as a guest." In a lot of old cultures, daughters were treated merely as property to be groomed and married off to the highest bidder. She wasn't taught to be clever, shrewd or even independent. Not saying she didn't naturally have/gain those qualities, just that she wasn't taught them as a priority. She was groomed to be a dutiful daughter, then a dutiful wife and mother. She didn't have a problem with that because she romanticized it and could fit the role easily. It became a problem when she realized the realities of the situation - that she would be married to a man like Joffrey within a political system that largely discarded women even if they were the perfect ideal. People seem to forget that a kid like Arya was so headstrong because she had to be. Arya's personality did not naturally fit the mold of a Lady, so she rejected it. Expecting all female characters to dislike the same exact things is ridiculous and unrealistic. In real life, there are girly girls who do not feel the need to pick up a sword and that isn't a sin.
Oh you’re an apologist who cries victim blaming every time someone tries to teach people about accountability
It is a sun when it means you might die
Yes. It's good that now I see it. Better late than never, though.
The tricky thing about Sansa being into songs and stories and "fantasies" is that to her, these are not fictions at all. Consider the story of her family...it's a tale of love and destiny, of heroes and honor. She grew up in a place where everybody celebrates the Stark family mythos. It's not just stories to her, it is literally the world she lives in. If anyone is to be questioned about the validity of their beliefs, it's Cat and Ned. Cat is deluded by the idea that Littlefinger still adores her like a lovesick teenager, and Ned, despite all evidence to the contrary, thinks other people care about abstract honor enough to act against their personal desires. As a parent who made a point of being honest with my kids about human nature and the world they're entering into, I have enormous sympathy for Sansa, and I am rooting for her harder than for any other character.
Ned is actually a male version of Sansa. He’s dead. That’s why people hate Sansa. What’s exactly like Ned. How is she not dead? The plot
This take is way better than the others such as people not liking her because she behaves like 99./. of real people therefore destroying her wish fulfillment . Should be upvoted more.
I feel the true reason is that in the Game of Thrones adaptation Sansa looks significantly older. In the books she is like 11 to 13. I remember being 11-13 despite being shown very bad behavior in the world, I continued believing in myths like Adults are always right and other childish stuff like that. So I could sympathize with Sansa.
Its just that in the show she looks 16 to 17 at least. So at a certain point I ended up mentally slapping myself due to her stupidity.
Noticed an odd parallel: it seems Lyanna Stark was fond of tales as well. Everyone talks about the parallels between Arya and Lyanna, but never Sansa and Lyanna. Both made choices that destroyed their family for what they thought was love.
@@LaerHeiSeiRyuuit’s not the plot. She learned. Ned didn’t learn the game and didn’t try to.
When Jory tells him to be careful because people are looking, he says let them look.
When Renly flees, Ned decides to stay there because of ‘honor’ to his friend. Instead of leaving, getting proof and joining stannis with his kids and household. He even plans to leave in the middle of the day like an asshole. While there are thousands of Lannister guards in the capital.
Sansa survived because she learned the game. Her sense of honor is shattered after what happened in the south. She’s been abused since her father died.
She was abused by Joffery, Cersei, the Kingsguard, Littlefinger, Lysa and Ramsey. People don’t go back to being idealistic rays of sunshine after that.
I love Sansa, it's a shame how she was reduced to a 'my trauma made me stronger' character by the end of the show. She was always strong. Moments in the earlier seasons show how head strong she is when she wouldn't give Joeffrey the reactions she knew he wanted, when she played a character perfectly to manipulate him and everyone else in the keep, when she almost pushed the king off a ledge not caring about the consequences to her life. She was strong in how she refused to be broken.
She manipuleted Joffrey in order to save a life even before she started to learn how to play the game of thrones
She was a badass since the beggining
And that's precisely what makes a person strong! Well said, Sarah!
When I got my sister to watch the show, she disliked Sansa in season one. But it was that scene, the statements of “How long do I have to look?” And “or maybe he’ll will be yours.”
I told my sister, “That’s the moment she learned to play the game.”
I liked the bit about Sansa being a fantasy nerd. Like when Tommen's crying and Joffrey tells him that heroes don't cry or something like that, and Sansa lists off a bunch of heroes from the stories she loves, I was like, "You go Sansa! Use your special interest for good!"
Sansa got my heart when she saw her fathers head (in the show) and Joffrey say’s something about bringing her Robb’s head and she retorts, “Or maybe he’ll bring me yours.” That took guts. I’ve always respected people who have a quite confidence and I feel like she exudes that.
The biggest problem with Sansa in the show, is right when her character starts gaining agency the quality of the writing falls off a cliff. Martin may have known what to do with fully realized Sansa, the showrunners absolutely didnt.
As soon as he was no longer involved by Season 5, the writing quality definitelly took a nose dive. From dialogue to just sequence of events.
Before, we would have an amalgamation of great episodes where it would be easier to point out the minor failings compared to the general great quality the show otherwise presented. From 5 onward, it was actually easier to point out the best moments, because the rest of the Seasons became from mediocre to bad, making the *very few* good moments feel more special (but ultimately not changing the fact that the Seasons themselves were inferior compared to 1-4).
Case and point, I remember when people were hyped up with the point where Sansa's story had reached by Season 4. Everyone was like "she is finally ready to play the game of thrones!" It felt satisfying to see what looked like a new turn of the leaf for her: from the once innocent, naive and ignorant little girl, to a now active, growing and seemingly competent player of the game. _(and that's sadly what made us misunderstand her too, we LOVE the "players of the game", when we should actually hate them)_
Then comes Season 5 and, of course that whole hype is drowned down the rain as soon as Littlefinger takes Sansa to be married to the Boltons, not only because that nonsensical plan doesn't suit the otherwise clever and cunning Littlefinger, but also because it took away *in an instant* all the power and agency that Sansa had gained by the end of Season 4. =__=
Also hate when ppl make it seem like Arya/Sansa is some big rivalry they need to take sides on. They’re sisters who both love each other and can be little shits to each other. Also they’re both kids with their own insecurities and anyone with siblings should know that a sibling can trigger your insecurities more than anyone else even when it’s not on purpose.
LOL yes agreed, like I get that ASOIAF is super intense and there actually are siblings who want to murder each other, but Sansa and Arya are kids who fight because they're different, it's not that deep and it's certainly not an indication that they're going to attempt to murder each other when they reconnect as adults.
Exactly. Little finger even died not realizing that.
It's because Arya is super misogynistic and "not like the other girls" in her views, thus she appeals to that very audience that likes to tear at Sansa's character, and these ppl don't want their fav "girl boss" character to get along with the character they absolutely despise
@@stass2933 The show Arya is mysogynistic, book Arya isn't.
As Robert said, "Damn it, children fight! It's over!"
Probably the most subtly written character in the story. And a wonderful little trap laid by George. There are many instances where he wants us to choose between characters when the correct answer is not to choose. We have the two outsiders at Winterfell, Jon and Theon. One is humble and unassuming, the other arrogant. Choose one. We have two sisters, one a feisty tomboy who loves everyone in her family, except for possibly her sister. The other is a spoiled brat who cares for no one but herself. Choose one. He further loads one side of the scales by having our initial impressions of the sisters coming through certain characters. Not only Arya herself, but also Jon. And even Ned telling Arya that he reminds her of his beloved sister, while not being able to understand Sansa at all. By the time we get access to Sansa, we're already supposed to have made up our minds about her.
Then the two sisters begin their ordeals. Neither one could survive the journey that the other has to take. And again, it is Arya that acts the way a heroic character should. Sansa get slammed for some of her actions, while Arya's are forgiven. How much pain and misery did Arya unleash on the world by saving Rorge and Biter?
One of the most common criticisms of Sansa is her naivete. Before she leaves Winterfell she sees a world where beautiful lords and ladies rule over prosperous, adoring smallfolk. Well, Robb sees a world where the problems can all be solved with a strong code of honour and a good military strategy. And Arya sees the world as one big adventure waiting for her to explore.
Again, it is all about offering the reader choices, when the correct answer should be not to choose. Like choosing between the Greens and the Blacks.
Amazingly stated 👏
OOOh, I'm glad I read til the end! You got me! I was all twirling my moustache in agreement, and then my last thought was "fugg the greens, GO RHAENYRA!!" lol it would appear I am a victim of GRRM's expert trap laying
❤️🔥
Blacks all day babyyyy!!! 🖤🖤
I love this comment!! Yes!!!
I think in a way Sansa subverts the princess locked in a tower troupe, while she can't physically fight her way out of the red keep she is proactive in many ways with her escape such as wearing clothing and using body language Joffery likes to keep herself safe. She even risks her neck to stop Joffery from killing peasants. Sneaking off to meet Ser Dontos and going through with the Tyrell marriage to escape.
Another issue I have is people claiming the girl is less northern/Stark because she likes girly things or stuff from the south a trait all her siblings share.
Yeah you're definitely right! And I hemmed and hawed about including the weird Northern exclusion but I might make that its own thing. I get that the show kind of warped people's perceptions, but it's so odd to me that people think Sansa isn't Northern enough when literally all of the Stark children are very intentionally coded as being half southron. Everyone aside from Arya takes after Cat more than Ned physically, and I think Arya has the most in common with Cat in terms of personality and temperament, so the notion that the Stark kids are supposed to be only Northern or that the North is somehow inherently superior is weird af to me.
It drives me crazy when people say she's just a miniature Catelyn!
She’s not really a master manipulator though.
@@umwha no one claimed she was
@@umwha she's like 12 years old in the books, slightly older in the show. I think GRRM could well be setting her up on the path to become a powerful matriarch like Olenna Tyrell.
When years ago I first heard that Sansa was so disliked I was actually surprised. As a big fan of fantasy and fairytales growing up I could relate to her a lot, and I was confused why people saw her as a terrible "mean girl". It's dumb that people hate girly girls so much, but I think movies have made that widespread dislike for feminine girls even more because of "I'm not like other girls" protagonists.
Same here. When I first saw a hate comment, I also surprised and I was like 'What's wrong with them'??
Personally I think it was that when we first get to know her, she was pretty mean to Arya, and it seemed that Arya had more of a main character vibe, putting sansa into the mean girl category, and a lot of people never reassessed her as the story progressed!
Exactly I’ll never understand the hate they all of of Sansa she’s literally one of my favorite characters
her problem isn't that she is feminine. Her problem is that her character is boring and had undeserved plot armor. GOT killed many great characters and the 2 most boring (Sansa and Jon Snow) were fg immortal. That's why the show sucks in the later episodes.
@@scambammer6102 lmao please. Nobody hates Jon for plot armour and he had literal plot armour. You're just sexist, it's ok, just admit it
I really appreciate how you discussed Sansa breaking a cycle of abuse by not being like her abusers. Without getting into my own personal story too much it’s a very relatable for people that grew up in an abusive household and when you look at how Sansa was mistreated by Cersei in particular you can’t help but see the cyclical nature of it all.
Yeah I find it very relatable and aspirational as well. It may not be fantastical or legendary, but sometimes rising above the people who raised you is more than enough to say that you've done a lot of good in your life.
Didn't Sana kill Ramsey horribly with dogs just like he did to other. So were is this idea of breaking the cycle of abuse coming from?
@@divinewisdomofgangbangs6846 The books.
@@divinewisdomofgangbangs6846 Book Sansa and show Sansa start becoming two completely different people when she's in the Vale.
Well Dany died, so we don't get to "break the wheel". Instead we end on the same shitty systems we started with.
Mean Girl Cersei is replaced by Mean Girl Sansa. We have a weak king prone to distractions, and an uncertain succession. A looming financial crisis caused by war and mismanagement. A Targaryen prince in exile.
It's almost funny how much of a return to the status quo the showrunners gave us.
Sansa Stark, over multiple readings, has grown to be one of my favorite characters. (For context, she's up there with Davos Seaworth and Mace Tyrell for me.) One of the reasons why I find her so fascinating is because unlike any of her siblings, she lost her Direwolf before the connection was solidified.
Unlike the other kids, who had their wolves to help guide and protect them, Sansa has no such luxuries. She's just a kid, being held hostage by a cruel fiance' and is too young to understand the nuances of being an adult in the world of Westerosi Politics. She has to learn everything on her own, and because she doesn't even have parents, she has no choice but to learn the old fashioned way: trial and error. Which means she has to use every tool at her disposal: Her courtesies, her instincts and wits. And when you take everything into consideration: She's done quite well for herself, almost impressively so when you consider she doesn't have many people in her corner. She had to become her own brand of wolf. A "Lady Wolf," If you will.
I will admit that I found her rather annoying on the first reading. But I think a lot of people did. Sansa was born in an incredibly strange position. In short, Catelyn had Southron Ambition, Ned didn't (I could do 5 or 6 paragraphs on this subject alone.) Sansa was born in the North, but was raised in a Southron fashion, groomed to be married to a high ranking lord. Nothing short would do. So, naturally, she would be prim, proper, and a bit stuck up, as a proper Southron Lady should. And considering that the book takes a lot of time to go over Westerosi Culture over 5 books, Sansa's character benefits from multiple re reads.
Everything in GOT benefits from multiple read throughs. It’s got rich character tapestry
THANK YOU SO MUCH! I love her. As an oldest girl with 5 siblings, I completely understand her. The first girl born is always dressed up like a doll, shown off and micromanaged. Younger siblings are given more freedom to be themselves. It would be very frustrating to me as a child to see younger sisters not punished for things that I would be be punished for. I would also be punished for much less than they were. It creates a lot of friction. And I do have an Arya in my life. As children we fought constantly. Now as adults we are thick as thieves. Sansa is the most realistic character in the story and I hope she has a happy ending.
LOL it must just be how it goes, I'm an only child but I have two aunts, and the oldest is is very mom-ish and strait-laced while the younger one is much sassier and wilder.
@@HillsAliveYT In my family we call it second sibling syndrome. It happens with boys too.
Also an oldest, and that was also incredibly frustrating to me. Now that I'm a parent myself, though, in some ways I understand. I'm making a lot of mistakes with my first that I've learned from and won't be repeating with any younger children (and she's not even a year old yet). I was about 17 when my dad straight up told me "we expected too much from you. And you usually rose to the occasion! But we expected too much." I kind of brushed it off then, but I understand a lot more now.
Same here. Not only was I the eldest sister, I was also often the eldest cousin, so I got this treatment from both my parents and my extended family of a million aunts and uncles. Yay for eldest daughter syndrome. I loved Sansa because I saw my own child self in her a lot. I was a girly girl obsessed with fairytales with a tomboyish sister who drove me crazy but I still love her. Sansa and Arya's dynamic is my favorite out of all the Starks.
My favourite misrepresentation of Sansa is when I was reading an OC fic and the POV character rudely refused Sansa’s invitation to a sewing circle and claimed Sansa had only invited her in order to oppress her(bc she worshipped the old gods and apparently worshippers of the old gods don’t need clothes) and also claimed she could sense a SECRET EVIL inside Sansa.
It was hilarious.
Oh god, not the secret evil.
Holy shit, it’s stupid.
Also, old gods worshippers don’t need clothes ? Well, what are the peoples of the North 😂 ? Who’s the OC ?
@@HillsAliveYT it was very weird and I simply could not continue at that point. I didn’t understand the point at all.
@@HillsAliveYT so I was finally able to finish your video(I will probably have to rewatch a few times bc I was walking the dogs and cat at the time) and I have to say my fave part is how ppl go into denial when Sansa has conflict with their faves bc it shows the other character’s flaws very clearly).
And it was so great how you picked Tyrion for that contrast, bc he is ABSOLUTELY the top offender. Ten out of ten there.
I was hoping you’d pick Arya or Ned bc I personally have beef with them, but you absolutely picked the right one, yep.
@@misskate3815 LOL yeah, I have beef with Tyrion (or at least the broad fandom perception of him and his "relationship" with Sansa) so it was easiest for me to analyze him, but even aside from that so much of his attitude and behavior towards her is SO GROSS that it just needs to be dragged.
«How does a teenage girl… … become such a reviled character?» There’s your answer, she’s a teenaged girl. Jokes aside this was a great analysis of Sansa. She is an amazing character and I just hope we get the rest of the series so we can continue seeing her journey. The show completely butchered it, along with many others, but I feel like the others may have had more accurate broad strokes.
Furthermore she’s a teenage girl who isn’t afraid of being feminine, people love Arya because she rejects all of her own femininity
Reject is a negative when it comes to Arya. She doesn't hate feminity
We see her trying to be a lady and feeling bad that she isn't as good as Sansa in these aspects. It just doesn't connect with her. She also doesn't see her interests as inherently masculine. They are just things she enjoys and is better at than Sansa, and it therefore gives her a confidence boost.
@@tatumgallahair7729 People don't hate Sansa for being feminine, they hate her for being a selfish brat.
It cracks me up that both Ned and Robb are seen as these heroic great men while their actions straight up got them and their families killed. Meanwhile Sansa a little girl who is naive and has been taught her whole life to be a good obedient woman gets shredded for her mistake and Catelyn who wants to save her daughter’s life gets blamed for letting Jamie go. Ned got Robert killed, himself killed, his people killed and put his daughters in mortal danger because he underestimated Cersei and wouldn’t listen to all the people around him telling him he was in over his head. Robb boned a chick and instead of saying well sorry I did that he married her which lead to his death, his mother’s death and his men’s death. If Ned would have told Robert immediately none of this would have happened, if Robb had married the Frey girl the red wedding wouldn’t have happened, but they’re viewed as awesome characters. 🤦♀️I love Ned and Robb and too be honest I don’t particularly care that much for Sansa and I really didn’t like Catelyn, but I don’t get why they’re hated and Ned and Robb are loved.
For the record, not all of those who dislike Sansa and Cat like Robb or Ned. Ned and Catelyn failed horribly as the parents of future Lords and Ladies.
if sansa told the truth from the beginning none of this would of happened
@@torymason5143 Ned didn't want Sansa to tell the truth at the Trident. The truth would mean an open conflict between the houses. It would mean he failed his mission to avenge Arryn's death and Cersei would have gotten him sent back to Winterfell, which would be a disgrace for him. Sansa's tragedy is that she was sacrificed by her own family to achieve their goals at her expense.
As for Catelyn's unjustified hate, well, I think it's justified :) Unlike Sansa, she's a mature woman with a lot of agency, and she uses it to create drama around her. Capturing Tyrion led to thousands people dead including her own family and household people. Releasing Jaime led to Karstark rebellion and created the need to go back to Freys for more men. But the worst thing is that Catelyn's reasoning is all over the place. Right before capturing Tyrion she was thinking that they're not prepared for the war... And she starts it right away. Right before releasing Jaime she is thinking what a despicable oathbreaker he is... And then she makes him give an oath that he'd send her daughters back. So yes, in Catelyn's case, she does mess up big time. If she just proceeded on her way to Winterfell and arranged all the preparations Ned told her to, we'd have much shorter books! 😅
Well I think they're hated because (in the books at least) they carry the most fault for Ned's death. Catelyn did a series of unbelievably stupid things that got Ned trapped alone in King's Landing and Sansa told Cersei that her father was getting ready to get her and her sister out of King's Landing (and that's when Cersei approached Littlefinger to double-cross Ned).
And then there's also the fact that they're genuinely very bad people. Especially Catelyn. Sansa is still a little girl, but the reader can tell that she does not have a good heart like her brothers and sister.
Sansa is a very sheltered and naive girl but that doesn't make her a bad person. I don't get people blaming her for Ned's death because I think he brought it on himself. Ned's not the saint that many people seem to think he is - he left his daughters ignorant to the danger they were in and basically used them as a shield to keep investigating Jon Arryn's death.
I think Ned is just kinda stupid. He has good intentions but just went a bit too far with his honor narrative and put a target on himself.
Being incompetent does make you a bad person .
@@dastardlygardengnome996 I think Eddard’s problem is that he was far too rigid with his honor/chivalry mindset, and tends to underestimates people who he sees as friendly, as well as refusing to do anything considered dishonorable, and assumed that everyone at court shares his values. A good example of this is when he said he’d expose Cersei and her children’s bastardy, and that she should flee kings landing immediately not realizing what lengths she’ll go to protect her children, and her position as queen.
Ned planning the worst coup d'etat attempt in literary history had far more to do with his death than any other decision he or anyone else made in the whole leadup to Joffrey ordering his execution, and yet people just overlook how bafflingly terrible his plan actually was on every level
I’ve been waiting for this one! Sansa Stark will forever hold a special place in my heart and I truly don’t think I’ve ever loved a character more if I’m being honest. People *always* ask me why Sansa is my favorite character and I honestly never really knew why she stuck with me so much but you’ve put all my feelings into words. Sansa Stark is who I wish to be not in the fantasy world way but like in the everyday world way. We need more people like Sansa who break the cycle of abuse. Sansa is unapologetically feminine and I love her for it she’s a girly girl who often underestimated and I relate to that on such a personal level.
Obviously I agree!
She’s my favorite too! Loved her ever since I started reading the books. I appreciated her flaws, it felt so real and relatable to me.
I never really liked Sansa... beginning to end... but it's not her fault. It's shitty writing towards the end. I never saw her as weak and I thunk she intelligent she just rubs me the wrong way. I'm not trying to offend you guys this is just my opinion. She went from spoiled whiney teenager to annoying "isn't as smart as she thinks she is" adult. She had some strong moments in between but the decisions she made in the later seasons of the show (7&8) had me screaming at the screen. So unnecessary... but again...it's not her fault. Dave and Dan are horrible writers. It's not even just her. You spoke of Tyrion. He went from a clever, intelligent and tragic character to an idiot who makes horrible decisions and stupid jokes. I really have a lot of hope that GRRM does a much better job... if he ever finishes the series
100% this! I once told someone i thought she was the most relatable character but couldn't explain why. This video does an amazing job at putting my feelings about Sansa into words. I've definitely been known to defend Sansa in huge groups of haters who claim she basically murdered her father; everyone seems to forget that she was just a child.
the whole premise of this video is bullshit. Sansa was a great character before she became immortal. She should have been eaten by Ramsey's dogs.
Sansa's character is one I look most forward to in the next book, as the show writers completely bungled her character post season 4. One of the reasons I think she is hated is because we're indoctrinated with the idea that femininity is backwards and oppressive towards women and you become a "strong woman" by rejecting this femininity. The characters we see in fiction that are presented to us as "strong female" characters are usually warrior women, women who embrace traditional "masculine" values. And Sansa is the exact opposite of that, especially when contrasted with Arya.
But there are many more ways to be a "strong woman" other than waving a sword around, George RR Martin gets that, and he seems to be building Sansa up to be a very strong, but still very feminine character.
It also often seems like the most vocal haters of Sansa are themselves women. I think this is mostly because many girls who enjoy fantasy series are often more on the nerdy, non-traditional side themselves and reject mainstream society more, and because of that identify very strongly with the character of Arya. And because Sansa is a foil to Arya in the first book, she becomes the embodiment of everything they reject themselves.
Yeah completely agreed, and I feel like Sansa is a very interesting challenge to that because in an ideal world, she would force people to ask "okay, well is it actually stronger to reject femininity, or is it stronger to choose to be yourself even if the world tells you that's weak or inferior?"
Whew, that last paragraph...It's so easy to see the truth through the hatred. I wonder if some women even have that self-awareness to identify their behavior🙁 I've seen this type of projection first-hand with friends. I love them dearly, but I could see why they weren't team Sansa, and it wasn't just because they loved Arya and Dany. It makes me so uncomfortable, but it's the insidious truth.
Definitely hated her in the first book, just like I hated Jaime. However their stories are compelling and the growth is tremendous. Alayne Stone and Jaime are likeable and just one of many great characters in the last book. If she stayed exactly like she was in the first I wouldn't have liked her, but seeing one "mean girl" and evil villain transform into caring people has been fantastic.
It's disappointing we never got to see Sansa progress the way GRRM intended, especially as it seems like they'd even set up her TWOW storyline at the end of S4. I'm also so curious to see how book!Sansa reacts to Daenerys and to reuniting with Arya. I hated the unnecessary animosity and jealousy they added between those characters.
@@mothturtle7897 My personal theory is that Sansa and Daenerys will become enemies, but in a way that makes sense.
We know it's very likely Aegon will conquer King's Landing early in TWOW. This will send shockwaves throughout the Seven Kingdoms, including the Vale. Littlefinger and Sansa will immediately realize that this new king is still unmarried, and Sansa can give him the North, the Vale and possibly the Riverlands as well.
This is more than other possible contenders can give him, Arianne brings Dorne, Margaery (if Cersei didn't kill her) might bring the Reach.
So Sansa might be the best match for Aegon, and this would also be a great way to finish up Sansa's character arc, by having her grow into a political player so powerful she becomes queen after all, not because her father married her off, but because of her own skill, acting on her own agency.
But then Daenerys arrives, she sees that Aegon is already married so marrying him is no longer an option, and she becomes an enemy of both Aegon and Sansa.
To me, this seems like the most logical direction of Sansa's character arc, but we may never know, unfortunately.
It's insane that so many fans hate Sansa for the supposed poisoning of Sweetrobin, when literally every other character, including fan favourites ,is a confirmed murderer.
Great analysis.
Murder is a part if life
Fans when:
Sansa poisons Sweetrobin:😡😡😡
Arya kills Dareon:🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
Varys kills Kevan and Pyrcelle: 🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
Dany impaled people that, for all we know, could be inocent and be against the power in Meereen: 🥰🥰🥰🥰
Bran takes control of Hodor: 🥰🥰🥰🥰
Etc
THANK YOU for bringing up the horrific line of Sansa talking about how her abuse in the show helped her. I almost got sick hearing that line. Sansa is one of my favorite characters in the books specifically because of how she’s able to use her position, though not traditionally powerful like a lawless king, to be able to enact her own power. Saving Dontos, manipulating Joffery, all of it is subtle and fantastic. To me she goes from being extremely naive and rude to someone who truly learns and grows and rejects the various forms of power she’s exposed too. She’s essentially, in my mind at least, a rejection of everything Cersei is and stands for. Cersei and Carleton act as kind of future paths that Sansa could take in how she exercises her power, whether to be tyrannical and cruel and manipulative or strong-willed and resourceful and honorable. A true Stark in that sense. I absolutely hate what the show did with her post season four, but am SUPER excited to see how she goes forwards in the books. I hated how they portrayed her getting the best of littlefinger because it was simplistic and didn’t actually incorporate her character development or lessons learned. In the books she may be the downfall of little finger as well, but I suspect it would be in a far more true-to-character fashion that is an accumulation of her fantastic character development. She goes from being someone obsessed with fantasy and songs and myths to someone who understands the true nature behind all of it, much in an analogue to us the readers.
I also cannot stand what they did with Tyrion. The show runners wanted to make him into a bland good guy, without realizing he’s obviously a villain. The whole noble ‘I won’t sleep with you’ on their wedding night in the show completely undermines his entire character as well as Sansa’s. In the books it makes complete sense, Tyrion wants her and she refuses. Demonstrating Tyrion, who at his core is defined by his childhood trauma and subsequent absolutely twisted relationship with women, is interested in gaining power over others in any way he can. He’s supposed to be an analogue for Tywin, as evidenced by his last words to him, ‘I’m you writ small’. Tywin’s own barbarism and extremely sadistic relationship with women is borne out his his childhood and seeing his mother died while other women parade around in her jewelry and clothes, giving him the lifelong idea that sexual violence against women to keep them in their place in a necessity. The character development of Tyrion turning full-fledged into this after ASOS is a fascinating character study into both his and his fathers twisted mentality. But the show brushes all this off in favor of Tyrion being a noble man who chooses a life of voluntary celibacy instead.
Completely agreed on everything! The notion that Sansa was made better by the people who treated her horrifically drives me NUTS and I can't stand that they had her outright say it so disgustingly like that. Same goes for Tyrion, his whitewashing was a true tragedy to me because he's a great, deep, complex villain with a whole fuckton of horror that needs to be unpacked. And although it's a relatively minor aspect in the grand scheme of things, it really annoys me that by whitewashing him and Jaime they lowkey implied that Cersei was the aberration and problem child when Tywin was really the poison that destroyed the Lannisters.
Because to survive hell you must have a tiny piece of Voldemort inside of you. This is as true in real life as it is in fiction. If you haven’t learned this yet you’re very sheltered
@@LaerHeiSeiRyuu uh what? Are you saying the only way people can go through tough situations is if they are raped???
I was super confused as to why people hated her so much, she's just a child being victimized by almost everyone around her but she survives through her intellect and kindness towards the right people. I remember my sister said she hated her because she just let herself be abused, which is wild. She's a hostage before she's even hit puberty and any misstep or incorrect phrasing could end with her head on a spike, of course she's not going to outright fight back against a literal king and his mother, or a man who threw a woman out of a building to her death. Her intelligence, wisdom and kind hearted nature are her strengths, and it's sad to see her getting slandered because she's not just Arya 2.0.
She really isn't that kind hearted though? She really upholds the feudal system. People say people like Arya because she's a tomboy etc is so lazy. Arya is pragmatic, she doesn't hold prejudices towards bastards, she talks to the common folk and is more open to advice from people nowhere near her social status. Sansa is finally coming around but only after she started pretending to be a bastard as Alayne Stone. Sure Arya is an outlier in regards to how she treats small folk but it is still a keen difference between the two. At least in the beginning. Having said that I personally love Sansa and think she's a fun character to read
@@hez859What exactly do you expect her to do as a glorified hostage, spark a proletarian revolution? Sansa does pretty much everything she reasonably can, seeing how she lacks the manipulative skills of someone like Margaery, and moments like her saving Dontos Hollard at great risk to herself when she defies Joffrey really showcase her more compassionate side.
People hated here because they found her annoying. It's only as deep as that, no reason to act clueless.
It's giction, the atrocities they commit are also fictional, but the annoyance one feels when they read the pov of certain characters is real.
@@i.cs.zamodits maybe unpack why you found a little girl whose being held hostage annoying, bro. No need to act like nuance doesn't exist
@@cassi6528 Who said I find her annoying? I don't have a problem with her personally, but I know why others do.
Acting clueless abouth why people tend to like or dislike characters isn't "nuance" bro. And maybe unpack why you assume things abouth others so fast, bro.
She is my favorite now, but when I first began reading/watching, I was close to her season 1 age, and I detested her. Arya was my favorite, and I hated Sansa, and it took several years of maturing for me to realize that I hated the one who most closely resembled me. Sansa was a realistically written girl, she was REAL to me and I saw parts of myself reflected in her, whereas Arya was this fantastical escapist vision. "Reflexively rejecting traditional femininity" is EXACTLY right.
Interesting! I first read the books when I was about that age as well! I loved Sansa more and kind of rolled my eyes at Arya because she was very standard to me (this was the time when divergent and the hunger games were HUGE so the market was saturated with “not-like-other-girls-characters”). Only as I got older I began to appreciate Arya as a character that isn’t just a trope!
@Silver Zelenia It was exactly the same for me. I loved Arya when i first read the books and in retrospect i think it was because i wanted to be like her and because i hated to be put in boxes. Those same boxes that Sansa always gets put in. Fitting in to the expectations of the adults around because i had no reason not to.
you are right. I feel like Sansa is the life that many girls have had, abuse trauma etc. I think the hate is a reflection on one self how maybe they were gullible and completely taken advantage off. they think maybe if we were Arya, then could have probably escape the abuse. unfortunately not
I mean you should reject “traditional femininity” if you equate femininity with being extremely naive, sheltered and emotionally abusive
16:05 and no one ever gives Sansa the credit she deserves for having the empathy and bravery to speak up and be honest with Margaery and Olenna about the kind of person Joffrey is 😢 she was literally so brave there
Yeah she was so brave when Joffrey was bullying Mycah the butcher's boy and her lying got him and her dire wolf killed. She's also still just another 1 percenter elitist
@@hez859She had absolutely no reason to believe either of those things would happen though, she didn't know the Lannisters are absolute monsters and she didn't know Cersei would demand blood over what is otherwise a more minor incident. Robert for his part basically just told them all to get over it until Cersei pushed him into doing what she wanted, and sending the Hound out to kill the butcher's boy would've happened regardless of what Sansa said or did because Joffrey or Cersei had ordered it themselves and would've done so either way. So I'm not exactly sure what you were expecting of her such that she'd know what would happen on the next page, as it were, but she reacts pretty much exactly like how you'd expect a child to: she freezes up and pretends not to know anything.
I remember watching a video essay about Mad Men and how "everyone is wants to be Don, but in reality, most of us are Pete" and that reminds me so much of how we are with ASOIF characters. While we would like to think of ourselves as alike Arya and Jon, the reality is that most of us are Sansa. Just trying to survive and just trying to not be hurt or abused. Absolutely love this video! Looking forward to exploring your channel some more.
And that’s a problem. What happens if you get drafted into a war with Russia?
@@LaerHeiSeiRyuu Or if get drafted into a war against Ukraine, Nato?
Honestly, I've loved watching Sansa grow. Like... in the beginning, she was an eleven year old girl, raised in a totally safe environment by some of the most upright people in the realm. She literally had zero context for what was about to happen. None. Even the lying about that confrontation with Joffrey and Arya. She did was like... 90% of 11 year old girls would do if the little sister she bickers with got into a fight with her pretty-boy boyfriend. At any point the adults could have been like "This was a fight between literal children. We don't need to execute wolves or peasants over this." and none of them did that. Telling the Lannisters what her dad was up to? She was 11, and in the biggest oversight ever, wasn't trained in court intrigue. For someone who is? Easy prey. And not her fault, because she was 11. A child. Being manipulated by adults.
And then she had to grow up way way too fast. And go through things that no child should ever have to. And in doing she grows into a mostly-kind, empathetic, and effective ruler (in the show, she's still one of the better liege lords)? That's absolutely stunning. But she learned the right lessons from her (horrific) predicament, and broke the cycle of abuse. A cycle that is on full display for most of her elders and contemporaries.
She's honestly one of my favorite characters.
Yeah. At that point, she doesn't realize how evil Cersei is. That's an adult she thinks is fairly reasonable, and her future mother-in-law who promises to help save her father.
Sansa and Margaery have always been my favorite characters. They showcase a sort of quiet, strength, power, and resilience that isn't as in your face as characters like Arya (who I kind of found annoying). But then again, this show was made in the #GIRLBOSS era where women were only "strong" if they were beating up men twice their size. Great video!
It always makes me uncomfortable when someone is vitriolic towards Sansa. It’s honestly warded me off of a few people. The biggest reason why I relate to Sansa is because she is a very young teenage girl trapped by people who verbally, physiologically, and physically abuse her. The depiction of how she survives, copes, and thinks during and shortly after her abuse rings very true to how a very young girl would feel and behave in real life when going through those things. Especially how hyper-vigilant she is (which I think is very pronounced in the book).
I resonate with her character SO MUCH because I was a teenage girl trapped with a horrible family and being abused by them in many of the same ways. Her abuser that she’s trapped with is also another teenager himself, which I also relate to. Whenever I read or watch Sansa that’s what is going through my head. “Holy shit, she’s going through what I’ve been through. She’s acting exactly how I acted when I was survival mode 24/7 so young and so unprepared.” Whenever anyone makes fun of Sansa (especially for “not fighting like Arya”) I get very uncomfortable and maybe take it a tad personal, because what I see is an abused teenage girl and know that I was one. Would they think the same way of me if they knew what I had been through? Would they think I was weak too, despite the fact I was strong enough to survive? Would they think I was stupid too, even though I was a child that couldn’t do anything to save myself at the time? It tells me a lot about someone when they look at a girl in Sansa’s position as “weak” or “stupid.”
What’s the internet adage? “This famous person will never see your post about their ___, but your friends and family who have experienced the same in secret will.” Sansa will never hear what they think of her, but I - as someone who’s been through similar - do.
Just my personal reason why I particularly adore her, root for her, and particularly dislike when people hate on her.
there are multiple who was treated way worse didnt act the way she did
I'm so happy that Sansa has gained a HUGE and popular fanbase over the years and she's become a fan favorite. But she sadly still has antis out there who are very loud and obnoxious.
LMFAO she does, some of whom are making themselves known in the comments section!
@@HillsAliveYT As are her supporters. She's polarizing, and obviously written that way. People's dislike of her (at least mine) comes not from wanting to live in a fairy tale, but from wanting that fairy tale enough to betray your family multiple times. The fairy tale was eventually replaced by a need for power, but the same was true at the end of the story as the beginning. I'm not calling Daenerys a hero or the best-written character either. Jon was set up from the beginning to be the hero, but LOLWESUBVERTTROPES. Jon was the only decent character in a position of real power by the end, and he allowed himself to be neutered by the memory of Eddard Stark. (the unintentional villain in this story)
You hit the nail on the head with this. I was nodding my head and vocally agreeing the whole time lol. It's absolutely true that most people who dislike her do so because they fundamentally missed the point of her character, or greatly misrepresent her whether through bias or simple misunderstanding of the story.
I especially love the part where you talk about how Sansa often casts an uncomfortable light on fan favorites, hence why she bothers fans so much. Both in the books and in the show, Sansa cast a light on characters like Arya, Jon and Dany, exposing their more negative or foolhardy traits, but because these fans don't want to accept the nuance of their faves not being inherently heroic or in the right, they would rather put all the blame on Sansa and make her the villain to their hero, even when the story clearly contradicts this idea.
Another part I love is you explaining the hypocrisy that exists in this fandom when it comes to "power." On the one hand, you'll see fans vilifying Sansa for not bending the knee to Dany whose around to claim her birthright. On the other hand, they'll then turn and vilify Sansa for apparently seeking to "usurp" the Northern crown Jon was given.
The hypocrisy lies in the fact that if Dany is valid for trying to get her birthright, then Sansa is _also_ valid _if_ they were actually right that she was looking to take the crown from Jon. After all, just as Dany says her birthright was stolen from _her_ , Jon actually stole _Sansa's_ crown by accepting the North crowning him (a known bastard) over her (the trueborn daughter and heiress).
Of course, they're wrong. Sansa wasn't trying to usurp him, but accepted that the North _chose_ him as their leader and supported him, to the point of fighting to keep him on the Northern throne, even opposing Dany for it. But Sansa is again vilified for this. If Sansa is expected by the audience to accept that she was usurped by her brother and that the people have the right to choose, then by that _same_ logic, _Dany_ should be held to the _same_ standard. She _also_ should accept that the people are able to _choose_ and that her trying to strongarm them or take what she believes is hers, is wrong.
Yet the audience seems to love to flip flop based on what makes their faves look good, even if its hypocritical, all in the name of villianizing Sansa to absolve their faves of accountability.
You really explained well why Sansa is my favorite character in the series, and why it's not surprising many don't like her. It has nothing to do with her being a bad character or a boring arc. Most people simply cannot or refuse to grasp the subtle story GRRM created for her, and find it easier to cast her as a stupid, vapid or boring damsel in distress that they're typically used to seeing. It's also why they get mad when Sansa basically one-ups their faves, who they think shouldn't get upped by some feminine girly girl. They would rather call it bad writing than admit their internalized misogny that tells them women like Sansa can't be anything more than background props or yes-men to their "betters."
I love how GRRM is subverting this trope and I can't wait to see how her story ends.
Hate to break it to you but she isn't attempting any power grabs in the books. Girl just trying to survive.
This is how people are with themselves. They flip flop to make themselves look good
This isn’t a virtue that you eeem to think it is
She is one of my favorite book characters. Her ''education'' in manipulation and vision is very interesting to witness.
Sweetrobin is an excellent dummy for her to use her methods on. Twisting words and perspectives whilst using her femininity to appear less of a threat.
She already learnt how to use it defensively in King's Landing - A lady's courtesies is her armour. Now she just needs to perfect it to move pieces on the board... And hopefully without forgetting herself completely.
She definitely can't grow older without absorbing some of the influences that are happening around and to her at one of the most impressionable ages. I'm excited to see her flip the script, as it were.
Sansa is one of my favorite characters in the books but the show damaged Sansa's true character from the very first episode. It was when they made Sansa say to her mother that she wants to be queen and marry Joffrey and Cat rolls her eyes. In reality Sansa never wanted to be queen, all she ever wanted was to find her true knight that will love her for her ( and of course he had to be a high-born). So in the books when her father arranged the marriage with Robert Baratheon she went along with it and obeyed her father. On the outside everything was perfect Joffrey was the crown prince, handsome and nice to her, so 11 year old Sansa thought that was her dream coming true. But of course the showrunners had to misinterpreted it and distort her image in the eyes of the audience for the rest of the series.
Yes exactly! There is a perception that she's desperate to be queen largely because D&D presented her in that way, when in reality she wants to go out and see the world that she fantasizes exists because of her favorite stories. Even when she goes to Cersei about Ned, Joffrey isn't her internal primary motivation, it's that she doesn't want what she's dreamed of seeing and experiencing forever to end.
She married Robert in the books😱
I don't think that scene undermines her at all. Maybe looking back from the last season it makes her seem like she 'always wants to be queen' but to me it more seems like she's embellishing to get what she wants, to be married to a beautiful highborn and be a lady with lots of kids...
She says she wants to be queen but really she just wants to be with Joffery, who will be king. So if she tells her parents she wants to queen and have little princes and princesses because only Joffery can give that to her (and again she really like Joffery). For teens in love it's easy to like the things your crush likes(but you wouldn't admit that) to convince your parents that you are meant to be.
Like Hill's Alive says, she's more a character like the everyday person, not a fantasy fictional character just a teenager going through puberty.
People really did call a TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL a bitch for being mad at her father for KILLING HER FUCKING PET
I needed this! She's my favorite female character and the one I relate to the most. In a show filled with tyrants, rapists, and murderers and most of the fans think Sansa is the most malicious character. Even most of the big ASOIAF RUclipsrs dislike her.
One of the very subtle clues that Sansa haters miss about Sansa's sense of courage and kindness is in the climax of A Clash of Kings, during the Battle of the Blackwater. Cersei takes Sansa and all the other high born ladies into Maegor's Holdfast. Cersei is down a rabbit hole of nihilism and has given strict instructions to Ilyn Payne to kill everyone within should the city fall. Cersei shares this information with Sansa either to terrorize her or simply because she's feeling hopeless and sees no point in hiding the truth. I suspect is the former as it basically means that Sansa will not find safety even if Stannis wins. Cersei shows a total disregard for the fear and panic being felt by other ladies in the holdfast. However, Sansa decides to lead the group of women in prayer in order to give them hope. Take note that Sansa knows about Cersei's plan. Instead of feeling hopeless as most people in her situation would, she decides to lead the women in prayer, somerhing that the rightful queen, Cersei, should be doing instead of wallowing in self pity and wine. Sansa has been in desperate circumstances for a long time. Yet in this darkest hour, she still chooses to inject courage and hope to those around, women that have done nothing for her since she became a hostage. Yet Sansa still has the decency to look past that and try to comfort them during their time of need. Its those quiet moments of bravery that make me love Sansa. She's very misunderstood and underrated by fans.
You could make a part 2 and still only scratch the surface of how great this characters arc really is IF someone has the insight to appreciate it. Sansa is by far the most living character in the series to me. I absolutely refused to watch the show out of principle of what they did to Sansa’s story arc. You hit every point and did a great job breaking down the fandom hypocrisy. Fantastic character analysis! Thank you for finally doing justice to this amazing and misunderstood character. Can’t wait for more character videos like this one. Jon, Sam, Arya and Brienne all of them have so much to offer beyond what they are often surface level understood as.
Yes same, I like her because she feels so real to me and I see so much of myself in her, which is why some of the takes on her character are hilarious to me. Like, I am similarly an overly obsessed nerd with what seems like the worst luck in the world, so the fact that so many people perceive her as a mean girl who needs to be brought down as many pegs as possible is just bizarre to me.
Yeah, people project a lot on to Sansa and twist her to try and make this a more conventional narrative when it obviously isn’t like their typical fantasy read. Sansa is actually unique in that GRRM gives Sansa in some ways more development early on in the first book chapters than other more loved characters. Sansa was given actual hobbies, talents, interests, aspirations, and actually has long term friends outside the family unit. Most readers walked into asoiaf thinking in the first few chapters they identified the heros/villains and settled in for a routine fantasy story only for GRRM to upend the whole thing. Never thinking of the POV trap they walked right into. (The Sansa bullied Jon & Arya nonsense is a great example of that) Thank you for putting in all this work to finally do some justice by Sansa. Love your stuff, keep it up!
@@lhall8545 Love this comment
People also forget that Sansa is not the only Stark child who is obsessed with stories. At least in the books. Jon, Arya, and Bran are also obsessed with them. It's just not the same stories. And they also get a harsh dose of reality.
Actually I thought sansa is more likeable than Arya. True that she started as "perfect lady" Groomed to be a princess consort. And also sure she made mistakes in earlier part of the book and film due to her being naive. But she has great character growth and relatable. She learned from little finger, she adapt in her situation. Thats why she survive the game of throne.
I love both of them and see myself in both of them for different reasons, but I'm an extra softie for Sansa just because so many people dislike her so much.
@@HillsAliveYT yes i also like them both. But for Arya, i like her since the beginning. While for sansa actually it grows following her character growth (when i fact i also dont like her in the beginning). Thats why at the end i thought sansa is more likeable. But they have different reason to be liked. Thanks for the great video. 🥰
Your description of Sansa’s ever growing hope, optimism, and empathy really brings to mind that she is somewhat representative of an Anne Frank type of personality. I’ve always enjoyed characters like Sansa. The ones that show true internal growth through experience but still keep their core essence.
I think one of the worst parts of show-Sansa’s arc is at the end of season 6 when she kills Ramsey. Don’t get me wrong, the scene is pretty good and I was all like “yes omg get his ass bitch!!” when I first saw it, but if you think about it for more than 5 seconds you realize it completely undermines her character. Again, I don’t really have a problem with Sansa killing/ordering Ramsey’s death, especially in such a poetic way, but the way they handled it was just terrible for her. They have Sansa arrange an over brutal and sadistic death for him (mirroring his pattern of abuse) and have her smile (signifying her taking pleasure in his suffering) and played it off as an epic girlboss moment instead of a tragic relapse into the cycle of abuse, and is never relevant again. Sansa’s strength is her refusal to reciprocate cruelty and to break that cycle, not to become like her abusers for the sake of one revenge-fantasy scene. And the worst part is that it feels like Ramsey kind of won in the end. He even says “I’m a part of you now” before he dies, and he’s right that some of his sadistic nature seems to have rubbed off on her. Of course none of this is ever followed through and Sansa’s totally normal the next episode. Arya’s whole story is about the tragedy of how turning to violence and revenge in response to trauma will destroy you, but clearly D&D just wanted a cool scene, no matter how many characters they have to ruin. Imagine that.
I just can’t help but think how much better it could’ve been if instead we had her and Brianne do it, with Sansa solemnly sentencing Ramsey to death, following the example set by her father, instead of her abusers’ (plus Brianne would be doing it with Oathkeeper AKA Ice reforged, which I think would be neat). If Sansa’s going to kill someone, I think it should be because it’s what she believes is the right thing to do, not just because she personally wants them to suffer.
Anyway, ramblings aside, Im just glad to see people sticking up for Sansa. I know she’s hard to adapt for the show, since she has so much internal dialogue, but what D&D did to her was unforgivable. Great video, keep doing god’s work.
I completely agree on your Ramsay take! I'm still bothered by how OOC it felt as well.
I think part of justifying it, is her hesitation or self questioning of her good instincts has taught her not to keep a potential threat around,as she learnt from the lanisters keeping around her when they thought they were keeping her around as a hostage but she acted more like a spy and helped margery creating more problems than she was worth , but I agree with your point but I’d like to see this in the books whether she trifles with not wanting to be like her captives or whether she puts her own spin on it
Actually this is a good thing tho. The abuse is apart of her now and that’s important theologically speaking. She’s taken a bit of the poison and is now capable of deploying the antivenom
The thing about that scene is 1. She got the idea for the dogs on her wedding day in the bath with Myranda. It’s a subtle nod to her powers of observation. 2. Having Sansa kill Ramsey herself is a call back to when Ned beheaded the deserter and brought Bran to watch. There is the line of “don’t look away or father will know if you do.” That scene is Sansa passing the sentence and swinging the sword. She was reclaiming some semblance of her Northern identity. This is important as she is the least Northern of all the Starks.
That scene, coming so soon after her betraying Rickon and Jon, ruined any character development Sansa had gained for me. There was no point to withholding the knights of the vale from Jon other than a power play. Rickon might have died regardless, but she didn't even seem to care. I still can't believe that no one called her out for that in the show. Arya is supoosed to be able to read people and said nothing. Jon said nothing and he had begged her for a way to get more men the night before.
I'm an abuse survivor and Sansa is my favourite character by quite a significant margin. It's just as you say, the fact she goes through all of this and remains one of the most kind and compassionate characters in the series is downright inspirational. Sansa makes me feel seen and I love her for that.
THANK YOU! I was waiting for this video to come out as Sansa is my one of favourite characters and the one I relate to the most. You made a fantastic analysis but I would also like to add something that I feel like you've missed.
In regards to her apparent stupidity, Sansa is very often compared to her sister, Arya, by so many fans (and vice versa). I find this irritating. I frequently see comments like this; how come Sansa is so stupid? Arya is younger than her yet she is smarter or something along these lines. What these type of fans ignore is Sansa's and Arya's different personalities, their different values and beliefs, as well as who they look up to etc. These things will factor into the decisions they make.
Both have their own strengths and weaknesses and I'm glad George put them situations that would play into these strengths and weakness (Sansa in court and Arya out in the big wide world). I think it's somewhat unfair to both to pit the two against each other when they are so different. Additionally, since when did we expect children to make smart and mature decisions just because some did?
Also, I have to add that I don't think you mentioned in the video you made about Ned is that he and Catelyn endanger their own children when they stupidly decide to allow them to go to court and Ned explains his actions in detail to his sons in AGOT so they can better understand the reasoning behind his decisions but the same luxury is not afforded to his daughters (the explanation he does give in KL is so damn vague and doesn't really let them grasp just how much danger the Starks are in, which, by the way is his and Cat's fault in the first place.)
Anyway, sorry for the long rant, I hope you have a good day! :)
Yes, completely agreed on Arya and Sansa! They both have individual strengths that tend to be the polar opposite of one another. But also, one thing that I have never quite gotten is that a lot of people act as if Jon and Arya were exceptionally intelligent because they didn't like the Lannisters from the start... but like, they didn't like them because they don't fit in with them or the stereotypical Westerosi nobility, it's really not that deep.
Totes agreed on Ned and Cat as well, they made a horrendous call in letting the girls go to King's Landing, especially with no real warning about the danger that they were likely walking into.
I think the main reason people dislike Sansa is because she is compared with Arya , who simply had a more adventurous action packed story. Arya is more active, making Sansa’s chapters simply less eventful and exciting. Add to that, that we the readers are mostly female, left leaning feministish people so we see breaking gender roles (Arya)= good , adhering gender roles (Sansa) = bad.
This is spot on! It is very interesting actually. Sansas character was literally written with the intention to make readers/viewers hate her. This is further enhanced by distracting us with 'shiny' and 'strong' characters who are very out there, seemingly always trying to gain power and doing 'badass' things. Whereas Sansa is seeking to survive, and claim her own power, do right by her people. It is very true that she literally had to 'grey rock' to survive. She was 'lucky' to have it in her nature to be naturally feminine, because even if she wasn't, she would have likely had very little choice in the matter, being the oldest girl in a powerful family. She was raised to be that way.
I also love how he generally make even the 'evil' characters a lot deeper. For example Jamie, being branded the illegal 'kings layer' and hypocrite. When in reality, as he says later in the story, he did it to save the 500.000 innocent civilians/subjects the king was going to burn to death, in order to save himself.
Love this. One of the big themes is power, varying types, how it's achieved, used and denied. Sansa is getting a real master class in varying types and approaches to power. She is kind and observant, very intelligent.
Also willing to bet the venn diagram of Sansa haters and Stannis lovers is a circle.
I love both Stannis and Sansa, so that at least means it's not a complete circle.
I would like to see Sansa and Stannis team up.
That is quite the visual and I see your point.
I thought Margery Tyrell was more of a Regina George like character. Sansa is.... More like Veronica from Heathers. She spends time with the popular kids, but it feels like their holding her hostage and in the end she becomes smarter than them eventually even if she has bad advice/help from psychos.
In my experience, many cannot get past their very first impression from Season One, when she was indeed a naive fool who stood in stark (heh) contrast to her more interesting, likable siblings. More, her foolishness aided (while not causing) her father's violent death.
But, even by the end of that first season, she was no longer that girl.
Another factor I've noticed is how certain persons whose identity is edgy in some ways--those who adore the character of the incompetent, vicious Cersei, for example--cannot abide Sansa for being non-aggressive (unlike Arya or Brienne) as well as not sexy (unlike Danearys). That her courage is to endure, and slowly learn, then act when she has the opportunity, then learns from mistakes, pretty much seems despicable to them.
So, I pretty much presume they despise me.
But it is one reason I feel such kinship to Sansa.
I hope you don't mind if I point out that one of the sources for inspiration that GRRM used was the miniseries I Claudius. And that show influenced certain characters in ASOIAF (the most obvious being that Cersei is influenced by Livia). And the character with whom I would draw parallels for Sansa is Claudius himself. Both are book nerds (Claudius reads and writes history, Sansa loves poetry), get treated poorly by people around them, survive in difficult circumstances in a dangerous political environment, have their intelligence underestimated and use this to their advantage (Claudius has the Library scene in which he's told to play up his disabilities, Ser Dontos tells Sansa to lean into the fact that Cersei and Joffrey think she's stupid). I don't know what exactly this means or how intentional it is, but I just think it's kind of interesting.
That is actually SO interesting and weird! It's weird because my dad absolutely ADORES I, Claudius but it's one of the few things he was obsessed with that he never showed me as a kid (I'm guessing it would have been a bit over my head) and I've always had it in mind to watch it sometime but just haven't gotten around to it.
Ooh, thank you for the recommendation! Definitely going to check out I Claudius
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah it's a really good show. Good for your Dad! He probably didn't let you see it as a kid did have some...controversial scenes.
@@MissSeaShell Definitely do! :)
@@hurremsultannss have you read the book? I have one more audible credit that's going to expire soon so I'd rather listen to that than watch any show or movie. Just wondering if you liked the book specifically :)
One of the best breakdowns of Sansa's character arc I've seen. Thank you.
2 reasons why the Sansa hate started, one for the show and the other for the books.
In the show, she's initially portrayed as a mean girl, as you said, and often in a very crude way. One example is when she's talking to Septa Mordane about hairstyles in the Red Keep and she says something along the line of, "Oh I forgot, I don't care!" Book readers know she would never say that because, above all else, she's a *lady* and a lady is never knowingly rude!
The book hate arose because she spilled her father's plan to send the girls back to Winterfell and break Sansa's betrothal to Joffrey to Cersei in her desperation to stop her father. The point here is she's a child acting childishly. Most adults can look back at action or actions they took when they were children which could easily have resulted in disaster, but in most cases it doesn't. It is Sansa's deep misfortune that this one action has tragic consequences for her and her family.
Sansa is continuously accused of having her head in the clouds with the songs of Jonquil and Florian the Fool and others, the implication being that she is refusing to grow up. Is she the only one though?
Her mother also had her head full of the songs when she was young but older than Sansa. We know from Catelyn's pov chapters that she was completely bowled over with her betrothal to Brandon Stark and it only went into overdrive when he came to Riverrun to claim her. This is also why Sansa was Lady Catelyn's favourite, because she saw her young self in her first daughter, which was also added to with her red hair and Tully look.
The same could be said for her captor, the Queen. Young Cersei was so enamored with Prince Rhaegar that she undertook the fateful trip into the forest near Casterly Rock in the hopes of her fantasy being confirmed by the woods witch. What she got instead marked her psyche for the rest of her life.
Her twin brother also believed in the songs as a boy. He dreamt so much of the heroic knights in the songs that he thought he was following in their footsteps when he was knighted into the Kingsguard as the youngest ever member. His illusions were shattered soon enough when the Mad King sent him immediately to the Red Keep and he realised he was simply a pawn in the games between powerful families.
I could go on about Jon Snow's disappointment with the Nightwatch, Tyrion and dragons etc, but, somehow, Sansa is the only one stuck with the label.
Anyway, Sansa has always been one of the most fascinating characters for me in ASOIAF, especially as she grows up, becomes very observant and smart with it, all without it changing her essential nature for the worse. I'm really looking forward to see her future in TWOW and how she overcomes Littlefinger. Thank you once again.
That Sansa is a more passive character leads to her having some of the best chapters in the series. All the court intrigue is seen through her eyes and she's very observant so we get the best descriptive views of society in this setting.
I also never got the Sansa hate. In term of how I relate to my gender, I am much closer to Arya and she is probably my second my favorite character, with my first being Sansa. I always loved how earthly she was. I remember a lot of people hating her because "she got Ned killed" when, it was VERY obvious that she was being manipulated by Cersei! She's about 14 in the show and 12 in the books, she wouldn't know better (miss me with that bs Lyanna Mormont line.) And also, out of all the people to blame for Ned's death, Sansa bares the least amount of blame out of anyone involved.
I have a lot of sympathy for Sansa and learn a lot from her character arc. She's been taught to respect all the rules of being a "good girl" medieval-style...and they all blow up in her face and her family's. She has to assemble her own moral code and strategic approach while being surrounded by sucky role models who are mainly out to get/use her in various ways. And compared to the other Stark siblings, she has to figure this out without magical or semi-magical help from prophecy, a cult of assassins, creepy priestesses, etc. Her arc is one of the main areas where GRRM comes closest to conventional historical fiction. So I wonder if people who are used to reading novels by writers like Hilary Mantel have been better "trained" to appreciate Sansa.
The point you made about people making Sansa the bad guy so that they don't have to re-evaluate their favorite characters I think applies especially to her portrayal in the first book. I see a lot of people say that she bullied Arya or that she sided with Joffrey over Arya, but they don't seem to realize just how much these evaluations of her are colored by other characters' perspectives. Arya never actually says that Sansa bullied her, only that she was constantly compared unfavorably to Sansa by others (and Jeyne Poole bullied her). The tension between the two sisters is largely born from other people's treatment of them, rewarding Sansa for her conformity while punishing Arya for her lack thereof. It's more down to the way they are being parented rather than a fault on either child's side.
Similarly, in the incident at the Trident, Sansa didn't side with Joffrey. She didn't side with Arya either. She just said she couldn't remember. It was honestly a pretty politically savvy decision for an 11-year-old. Her father hadn't given her any warning or preparation before summoning her to what was basically a trial, no assurances of protection from the consequences of openly accusing a violent prince to his face, in front of his parents, the king and the queen. Sansa had just seen for herself what a monster Joffrey truly was, and now she was expected to make herself his enemy? Knowing that she would someday be married to him and fully within his and his mother's power? Sansa may have lied by saying she couldn't remember, but she did so because Ned wasn't properly protecting her. She felt she had to protect herself, and honestly, didn't she? Would Ned have broken the engagement if Sansa had publicly told everyone what Joffrey really was? Not likely. He needed her engagement to keep Robert and the Lannisters from suspecting his motives. He was using her as a pawn in his own plans rather than making moves to keep her safe.
And even then, knowing that it was in her best interest to keep Joffrey happy with her, she didn't confirm Joffrey's version of events. She tried to find the safest way out of the situation for herself without actively opposing her family. Yet people still see her lie as a betrayal. If anyone was betrayed in that scene, it was Sansa, and by Ned. But people would rather see Sansa as the bad guy than re-evaluated Ned.
THANK YOU, that one line 'she had to be exploited or she would have stayed a little bird' was so disgusting. Instantly when I heard that I was very, VERY angry because that can only come from lazy male writers. NO woman would be glad she got abused just so she "grows". Good writers don't need such cruelty for character development, especially when it is based heavily on it. They failed her hard.
The reason I hate Sansa in the later season is the same reason I hate almost every character in the later season... poor writing...
I use to hate Sansa until a friend of mine said, "Dude, she was a literal child. She didn't know what she was doing!!". And I was like, yeah, I guess that's true. I never thought Sansa was stupid personally, I just thought she did a stupid thing. Which, she did. But she thought she was in love, and she was only 11. That's what my friend explained to me. I still don't like Sansa, but I don't HATE her anymore lol
The problem is that Arya is younger and she seems to understand what is happening around her more than sansa
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl she really isn't though, she was going to just leave with Meryn Trant until Syrio Forell stopped her. Now that she's at The House of Black and White she's a little more aware, but before that? I don't really think so
Well, and it's interesting, because her book version is pretty clearly more interested in King's Landing/the thought of all things new and exciting than she is about Joffrey. Her internal thoughts actually show some significant misgivings about Joffrey pretty quickly too when he starts being a dick.
I used to not like Sansa when I first read the books, but then I realised how stupid that was, and that she’s actually a really interesting character, and now she’s arguably my favourite asoiaf character.
Wait... Some people hate Sansa?
She's one of the realistic and true characters who grow and learn
“I’m a slow learner, but I lean” resonated in my bones.
Sansa stan here. I feel like a lot OF this also comes down to misogyny as well.
I feel like much of the hate is because of the way she handled the BOTB in the show. I've read some really interesting takes on why she may not have told Jon, though I get the hate (and that is obviously only *show* Sansa). I get that people are outraged that Sansa was so classist (go figure) early on in the story, though it's because they had Arya there to show how inclusive a highborn *could* be. But you're so right in that Sansa is one of the only characters to actually become nicer and more welcoming the longer the story goes on, and the more she suffers. Always love your analyses, HA. 🌄
Well I actually have a BA in film criticism so that could be skewing my view of it, but I'm 99% sure it deadass comes down to the fact that it's a cinematically effective twist, which is a common thread with D&D. For all that I drag GoT, the reality is that they are excellent filmmakers, but they ARE primarily filmmakers and it really shows when it comes time to adapt "big twists" like this because they seemingly revert to classic cinematic structures and conventions when GRRM's material doesn't lend itself that well to it at all. I'm certain GRRM isn't going to write it this way because the BotB is very much a classic three-act structure that you'd expect to see in a movie, and my movie nerd eye sees a situation where they just needed a climax point to punctuate the second act and came up with one that would have a great initial impact but has no real repeat value. There may have been actual characterization or plot reasons behind it, but my immediate impulse is that they literally just needed something very dramatic to put in that point of the story and that's what they came up with.
My issue with people bringing up the BOTB as a reason to dislike her, is them using it as a way to claim _she_ was responsible for the almost loss. This is yet another lie that fans who dislike her project onto her to absolve their fave of accountability. Notice how people who say this, _completely ignore_ the fact that Jon, Davos and Tormund made a whole battle plan days before and it was specifically stated that it needed to be followed a certain way towork...and Jon _abandoned_ his entire plan, and _that_ is why the battle turned out the way it did. Sansa not speaking on the Vale, had _nothing to do_ with the loss Jon took. But people would rather blame _her_ for _Jon's_ mess up, because as this video explained, it's _easier_ to point fingers at her, than taking a closer look at their faves own flaws.
@@roseofthegarden_ that criticism I always roll my eyes at because yes she wrote to Littlefinger after she told him she didn’t need him again. She honestly didn’t know if they were going to show up. So why make a battle plan to include an army that may not show up. Also, Sansa was the one that told Jon not to do exactly what Jon did.
I don’t know why anyone would dislike Sansa so much. She is very relatable at least for me-she is kind, naive, clueless in the beginning, and a slow learner who eventually learns about the cruelty of that world and starts playing the game.
However, I really did not like how they did her character in the later seasons. Some of her actions did not make any sense. She was supposed to be Littlefinger 2.0-manipulative and calculating, but she was something else. Last seasons ruined her character for me which is a pity because she was one of my favorites in the earlier seasons.
Sansa was my favorite both in the books and in the show, her story is basically the everyman story - she’s what most people would be or deal with situations if they were put into a world like Westeros, and I honestly think the hate for Sansa (beyond the usual misogyny and disdain society has for really girly teen girls) is that she’s not the flashy action hero glow up fantasy that other characters are, she’s just a kid growing up and trying to survive, and in our society we’ve been basically conditioned to cheer and want the flashy one as the power fantasy and ignore someone else who just has quiet resilience.
People always dismissed Sansa but I always knew she was capable of more even in season 1.
Also, I’ve always told anyone who didn’t like Sansa or thought her weak, to play the Game of Thrones telltale game, especially Mira Forrester’s storyline, because that really teaches people how difficult and dangerous it is to even just say the wrong thing and how strong and smart Sansa is to have survived. Many people played the game and would come back to tell me they had a new respect for Sansa.
Sansa was always my favorite character. I have always loved girly girl characters that are kind and gentle in the face of abuse. Number one: I like watching characters that are unapologetically femenine characters because I've never been able to express my femeninity. Number two: I feel like kindness, gentleness and love are the only ways to find real solutions to our terrible societies.
I liked Sansa in the show. For me, it was the only main character who didn’t fall completely into the bad writing tragedy. My favorite part of her by the last couple seasons was to see her rule, because she was such a good leader. Sansa wasn’t busy playing smart games, and she was really tired of all that bs. She was busy actually being a leader and caring for the people under her protection. She was treating everyone with respect, doing inventory, making sure everyone had enough food and appropriate clothes for the winter… and that’s something we never see from any of the other character who are in a position of power even tho they’re supposed to be rulers themselves?. I mean, it makes sense the northerners are loyal to her, she’s the only one in westeros doing her job.
Sansa is badly written tho. Funny you don’t see it that way tho
@@LaerHeiSeiRyuu everyone is bad written, that’s the point. I just said that for me her character wasn’t 100% ruined, maybe just 70%.
Badly written in what way?
God damn it this was going to be my debut video, I will die on the Sansa Defense Hill. Excited to watch and hear another perspective!
Oh LOL well don't let me stop you! It's not like there is an overabundance of analyses defending Sansa anyway, she can afford to have a few more fans in her corner, especially on YT.
I hope you do a video! Like Hill said, there are far too few insightful videos on Sansa and her story arc.
Please, we need more Sansa defense videos! And you may even offer insights others have missed, so don't be afraid to speak
I loved her because she was naive and then had to pretend to continue to be naive through the story for her own survival. She still was naive in a lot of ways, but she was a child of the summer and was sheltered from much of reality, so she had to learn the hard way a lot of times. But she did what she had to do to survive. I admire that in a person.
I agree! I also admire that she managed to still hide behind the mask of being naive when secretly she learnt to fend for survival. I find it impressive that GRRM managed to write a female character like that, and it's inspiring for writing.
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAS! louder for the people in the back! people hate on a literally child/pre teen character for seeking and wanting to be what she was always told she could be: a highborne lady or a Queen. She is abused over and over again and gains no sympathy . Ugh, I really love Sansa Stark, she deserves the world.
Everyone loves Ned but hates the child who’s the most like him
I'm sure the people who criticize her character in the beginning were an absolute delight as a teen/preteen. (Sarcasm)
In a lot of my discussions with people who still hated Sansa by seasons 6-7-8 I would ask them why and they would always start off saying something to the effect of "she betrayed her family" which... okay, that was literally what happened at the beginning of the story, Season 1 Episode 1 if you're talking about the TV show, when she was 11 years old? And after that she was clearly being manipulated or coerced and her character has developed quite a bit over all that time just like every other character, so I never understood why people were so eager to keep that grudge against her that they didn't for other characters who did far worse things.
" Sansa has her wits....Just like LF has. "
GRRM S4 AGOT.
GRRM stated EVERY Stark have above average intelligence.
No no, Starks are morally good characters and we love them for that but when it comes to politics they definitely do not have "above average intelligence."😂
I really enjoy your analysis of the characters. I find I largely agree with you in regards to how George writes a character vs how the fandom generally receive them. I genuinely had never thought of Sansa as a sub-in for the reader before - it's a great angle. I found Sansa's lack of agency to be my biggest point of tedium in the earlier books but I think she has such large potential as a huge agent of change later in the story. As you say everyone wants to be (or read) about the dragon queen - not the captive princess. You've spelt out what I didn't realise I knew as I was reading her chapters and finding myself a bit bored (I still liked her as a character). It will be so exciting to see where Sasna goes in the books
Thanks! And yes I totally agree, I'm not super surprised that Sansa isn't outrageously popular simply because so much of her story is just her trying to be as unnoticeable as possible to avoid mistreatment and get through everything one day at a time. But I feel like that's a very unusual story to tell and a super interesting twist on the damsel in distress. And I'm super hyped to see her future in the books as well, like it's getting very close to the point where she can actually DO SOMETHING rather than just being stuck, so seeing who she chooses to be when she can actually make that choice will be really interesting.
Fantastic video and in support of Sansa, who is one of the most interesting characters in the books. I can relate to her. Many people that hate her just don't understand her character really.
I didn't like her in the first seoson but you have to see that she becomes so much more mature, smarter and kinder through the seasons. She went through so much and it changed her. It took away her naivety and made her wary but it didn't break her. She became stronger and wiser.
She's incredibly hardened by her experiences. Betrayed by her closest yet became aware enough to not only turn the tables on her betrayer but to use his betrayal and weakness (her and her mother) to her advantage. From as early as Season 6 you can see that she has Littlefinger figured out and is just using him as he tried to use her. She is also an incredibly Level headed leader and is incredibly Loyal to those she sees as under her duty of care. People can say what they like about the ending but the literal takeover by The Starks seemed nessasary. They were the only house that still seemed to uphold royal loyalty, Determination and Grace. Their "family values" would serve the kingdom far better than anything any of the other houses had to offer and Sansa was probably the best offering to come out of House Stark.
Sansa betrayed thousands of innocent Northmen (and her family) at the battle of the bastards, she cared fuck-all for her people. The only loyalty she cared for was people's loyalty to her. Call her a Tully, but don't call her a Stark. The way it was shown in the show, she had way more than enough cavalry to have changed the outcome of the battle from the onset. She waited until Rickon was dead and Jon was surrounded to send anyone. That is a fact.
Exactly! Finally someone says it! Thank you! Sansa represents the real normal people, without superpowers, the one that was actually influenced by its context and it's heated because she doesn't rebel against it. She likes to be a lady. She likes to be feminine. But also, she is super young in a world where she has been privilege and kept aside from the cruelties of the world. The thing is that Arya acts like a mirror. Everyone compares them. Everyone likes Arya because "she is not like other girls" and then by position Sansa is "the other girls". But the truth is that Arya is an exception. Most of us would have been more likely like Sansa than Arya. Like in zombie movies everyone likes to think they would be the last man standing, when probably we all would be like the first ones to be eaten. But then it also gets interesting that from that starting point is incredibly how much Sansa develops. Arya was a badass rebel from the beginning. Sansa learns from being completely naive to demand her own rights and stand for herself. In that sense is a bigger evolution of her character. Also, Sansa moves from being the princes in the fairytale that was about to married Prince Charming, to be a real hostage living traumatizing events, to... find her own way of rescuing herself, no Prince Charming came to save her at the end. And she didn't even end up with a romantic partner at the end of the TV Show. Like, she really understand the lesson. And not to forget that in the context, it makes perfect sense that she wanted to keep Winterfell and the North independent from the South. Like, this is not only her taking this decision on her own, it's like... a lot of history and evidence to prove that this was the best and what all the Nordlander's wanted. Did she commit mistakes? Yes. As was normal to a person of her age and knowledge in her context. But it wasn't different to the mistakes that all the other characters made.... The mistakes of Rob? of Ned? of Cersei? Are we gonna call them stupids because of that? Compare to other characters Sansa wasn't more stupid and certainly she was less evil.
Sansa in the books is actually one of my favorite characters. Sure, she can be annoying and unlikable at times, but the same can be said of literally EVERY other character as well. You've hit the mark on why she is so interesting and how the show ruined her arc. While everyone else is running back and forth across Westeros, Sansa is slowly making her way through the story in the background. But rather than being a passive player while hearing the thoughts of the more "clever" characters around her, we get to see the agency she develops from her experiences.
There are so many fascinating interactions between women in the story, and Sansa is a huge part of that. She contrasts against so many strong and direct personalities, all of them determined to show that her way of thinking is wrong, when what they're doing is providing an opportunity for Sansa (and hopefully the reader) to see the shortcomings of those ideas and refine who she is. That the show let her character be defined by the times she is forced to submit to men undermines the importance of the nuanced transformation she undergoes because of other women.
I feel like they didn't know what to do with a feminine character who has lost interest in using her femininity (or lack thereof) as an outward force, as compared to Cersei, Margaery, or Melisandre (or Brienne and Arya, whose lack of feminine energy is also actively projected outward as part of their identity). As she realizes that reality is not like her fantasy, she is less and less interested in projecting her feminine exterior (which she realizes can be weaponized AGAINST her), while still embodying classically female personality traits, like compassion and passivity (I don't mean that in a bad sense, her passivity makes a lot of people underestimate her, allows her to be more perceptive, and helps her learn how to pick her battles).
Sansa spends a great deal of time in classically female-oriented spaces (and embraces them, unlike Cersei or Daenerys). These spaces are very under-appreciated and under-represented as venues of compelling narratives, as they often create "down-beats" in the rhythm of the story. I think this is also why a lot of people don't like Sansa, as they see her segments as "boring." In my opinion, I think it's refreshing to see a character who isn't constantly interested in "out-thinking" everyone else in the room. Sansa is no fool, and I think her slow pace is going to pay off in the long run.
You got me doing the "DiCaprio pointing at his tv" when you compared Sansa to Brienne's situation
Sansa has always been my favorite. Her experience is harrowing and its inspiring to see her push on despite her lack of physical strength and freedom in the story
She survived being under control of two of the most sadistic vile characters. A lot of people dealt with Joffrey or Ramsey but she had to survive both of them. And she did.
I think sansa is character that suffers the most from mysagony of this world
Sansa blaming herself for her father's death is really sad, it's not like Cersei was unaware of what Ned was doing
I think people must have completely ignored the fact that there was a literal scene showing how several people had spy networks?
Cersei *, Varys (obviously), Littlefinger^ - & Tyrion, as Acting Hand - they all had, or developed spy networks in Kingslanding.
It's also pretty obvious that Tywin* has one- he was well aware of Cersei's & Joffrey's actions, before he sent Tyrion to the city (& the Grand Maester was his creature, not Cersei's- I would suspect that of the people in her pay, very few of them are not also reporting to Tywin)
Roose Bolton & Walder Frey (how else would they have done what they did, & communicated the plot of the Red Wedding? I wish the Honeypot Theory had been a real part of the show, rather than just a hope for cleverer writing than was capable of being delivered).
The books showcase this fact even more... - Roose also reveals to Theon/ Reek, that the people 'serving' Ramsay, are his & report on what he does (which makes me extremely skeptical about Ramsay getting the upper hand against him).
It's pretty obvious that the Tyrells have established a network of them- but while she gets told about one, Cersei fails to see the most devastating spies of all, in Taena (whose loyalty is up in the air)- & the Kettleblack brothers^.
Prince Doran is sending Tyene to act as a spy at the heart of the High Sparrow's circle, to get a feel for the situation in Kingslanding.
If Ned hadn't been more focused on honour & his personal feelings, over being an effective Hand (& potential Regent)- he could have prevented what occurred, which would have saved his family, his people, & the realm immeasurable grief...
Edit: word
Another banger as usual. Couldn't agree more with everything! I always thought the tragedy of Sansa resembled Duncan Targaryen's lover Jenny Oldstones from Podrick's song the most. It's fitting, as Cat and Littlefinger used to play as Jenny and Duncan as kids. Her POVs have always been some of my favorite POVs because it was reflective of the human element the most : a story of shattered illusions, vulnerability, torment and resilience. Always had a soft spot for her.
One thing I really dislike about the conversation surrounding Sansa is that most people seem to think that she and Arya are like polar opposites: Sansa, the traditionally female girl who romantasizes being a lady and princess vs Arya the girlboss sword tomboy who has an absolutely realistic and sound understanding of the world. But Arya also romantasizes the world, only with her it’s knights and sword fighting and battle, she thinks that‘s so great. They both have to find out the hard way that neither of their perceptions of the world was right, and the things they wanted so desperately are actually much worse than they thought.
One example I really liked was in the beginning of Clash of Kings when Sansa thinks about how she wishes for an honorable and good knight to save her from Kings Landing. And then in like the next chapter or so Arya hears that Yoren is taking them to the lady that holds Harrenhall because she is a friend of the watch. Arya thinks that there would also be knights, and since knights are always honorable and good that means she could expose herself and they would bring her safely back to Winterfell.
Only people don‘t want to think about Sansa and Arya being alike because that would take away from Arya being a girlboss and would mean that Sansa is not as horrible as they would like to believe.
I love Sansa so much, because shes so relatable. I grew up incredibly sheltered and was raised to be the perfect girly girl waiting for a prince. When I finally started dating I was completely unprepaired and immediately fucked over by an older guy. I was told it was my fault because I was stupid and naive. The same people who trained me to be a people pleaser were now making fun of me for being taken advantage off. A story as old as time.
I think it's because her storyline is just things happening to her and they didn't give her any screen time to show the emotional depth and pain she was really going through.
Even the beginning of this video states that we are told she is very beautiful. There's no close ups of her beautiful hair, scenes of a glowing silhouette or anything particularly impactful in how they capture her. She often just looks disappointed, afflicted, even when she is trying to impress Joffrey in the beginning, her face doesn't absolutely light up with joy. And it doesn't get better throughout any of the series. And maybe it's because she is raised to Be a royal stark, but it's hard to notice that contrasted to literally any other female that we are supposed to care about in the show.
The character assassination begins and ends with Benioff and Weiss.
It's not just Sansa... EVERY single character that GREW or MATURED became hated!
Everyone loved Tyrion when he was a drunk prick who enjoyed putting people down, not so much when he fervently wanted to believe in something for a change.
Everyone loved Arya when she was the adorable tomboy full of spunk, not so much when the toll of seeking vengeance became readily apparent, and certainly not, when she abandoned vengeance altogether.
Everyone loved Jon when he was kicking ass and taking names, not so much when his character shifted from the battlefield to having to navigate the world of politics...
Everyone loved Cersei when she was a hateful b*tch, not so much when she was a ruler desperately trying to keep the realm together against an overpowering invader and prove her father wrong.
And, of course, everyone loved Jaime when he was on his path of 'redemption,' not so much when he realized 'redemption' didn't mean abandoning/killing the person he loved all his life, but forgiving her, showing her true empathy and being there for her till the very end.
Now, of all the major characters, which character FAILED to grow and FAILED to mature... keeping the same sense of entitlement as in the very first season? Why, of course, Daenerys! No wonder people were hostile to her downfall.
I feel Sansa was one of the characters that suffered most from the adaption process. In the early seasons of game of thrones, she comes across as a bit air headed, giggly and above all else, childish. This is especially frustrating as it is completely sensible for book Sansa, WHO IS TWELVE. I'm not sure why they thought it was a great idea to age her up to her late teens and leave her character completely unchanged. Its just weird seeing a grown woman act like a preteen and I think it explains a lot of the early dislike she got.
Later on of course... well, I really don't think I could make the point better than you did. Though the writing was pretty terrible in general for ALL the characters by that point.
She’s literally thirteen when the show starts and eleven during the first book. She’s basically at the end of her preteen years.
And Sophie Turner was fifteen when she started filming. She was only a couple of years older than the character, making them basically the same age in Hollywood years. It was a way better casting choice than Natalie dormer as margaery or whoever played jon snow.
Sansa starts the show at 13, which is not late teens, she’s literally a sheltered kid, and I’m sorry but she acts how a 13 year old acts, I think people forget, even kids who are in their late teens are and can be incredibly naive, I know, I currently live with one who’s 16 and is still innocent and naive and childish about many things, because that’s how kids are even at the teen age.
Sophie Turner was basically her character’s age, not a grown woman until much later in the show. So her being a grown woman acting like a child being the reason folks don’t like her doesn’t seem to make sense.
The only problem I have with Sansa is with the show, and it's the knight's of the vale battle of the bastard's fight. Like dude thousands died, your little brother died, and possibly Jon as well in that battle. She couldn't give a heads up that she had thousands more soldiers to fight with?
That's the part that pisses me off, SO many people died fighting in a MOUNTAIN of corpses for your home and you couldn't say ANYTHING beforehand?
The book version is just great tho, she's a sympathetic character and still a child learning to survive. She's a compassionate person despite what's been done to her and is growing strong as a result.
LOL yeah I said it in a reply to someone else, but the whole Knights of the Vale thing was obviously about having a climactic shocking twist, if they were writing according to what would make sense obviously that would have never happened.
@@HillsAliveYT seasons 5 through 8 don’t exist
Sansa is one of the best characters in the series and I'll die on this hill. Her development and character arc were incredible to see unfold.
I blame everything on Dan and Dave. They messed this up so badly. Just like Daenerys, they ruined the character virtually overnight.
This is exactly why I liked Sansa so much, because I know that if I was in her situation I woudnt be an awesome cool fighter or something. Sansa is way more realistic than that, which makes her super relatable to me. Like I can actually imagine myself in her situation. And the thing is, she still comes out on top so she's still super empowering
I think it is because most people are very visual, and our culture does not encourage people to look deeper than what they see on the surface. In most stories, the good people are always saints, and the evil people are always monsters. Most stories are flat, because their primary goal is to tell about the stories and the moral. GOT is very different, because it is actually just as much about the characters, as the things that are going on. No-one is all good or all evil in this story; there is a depth to the characters that I have yet to see in other books/series.
But if you notice, the characters that are liked, are the 'shiny' and seemingly 'obvious' ones. The ones who aggressively and overtly 'fights' and 'stands up', even when it is not always the smartest course of action. Even if it is very brave. But true power play is almost always covert. And considering her situation, Sansa actually play it very well. She grey rocks a lot, and seems so uninteresting and 'stupid', that she is underestimated by her captors. And that is what allows her to get the upper hand eventually. By making them think she is too stupid or too afraid to do anything, or that she is on their side. Of course she is basically forced to play it, if she wants to survive.
If Sansa has no defenders, it means I'm dead
I wholeheartedly agree. Sansa has always been one of my personal favorites. She was really relatable and I never understood the hate around her. I did find her annoying in season 1 because Joffrey was so obviously evil but she grew on me very quickly.
There's a saying, if you want to know what someone's truly like, you should see how they treat people beneath them. So, Sansa being the hostage, the traitor's daughter, the unwilling wife, ultimately puts her below many people in terms of power; sansa hasn't made anyone show their worst qualities to her, everyone just saw someone who couldn't fight back and decided that it was not worth hiding that part of themselves from her
Thank you. Sansa has always been my favorite. As an oldest daughter who has always wanted to do the right thing and just got abused and caged over and over again... I want to see her step out of her cage and still be the kindest person she can be.
George wrote a real life girl and a traditionally feminine one who doubts her gut instincts and likes pretty things and the entire world hates her for it. The writers of the show didn’t know what to do with her so just made her do the same arch over. Basically, Sansa is imo the embodiment of “just because people are nice doesn’t mean you have to reward them for their basic human decency”