The Myth Of Jon Snow's Wicked Stepmother, Catelyn Stark: A Song Of Ice & Fire Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 8 июн 2024
- Jon Snow and Catelyn Stark's relationship got hardly any development in A Song of Ice and Fire or Game of Thrones, but most fans see their dynamic as the classic fairytale hero who is rejected and mistreated by his wicked stepmother. However, the actual text of the novel series doesn't really back up that notion.
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Intro
02:01 The AGOT Excerpt That Explains It All
07:02 Reading Between The Lines With Cat And Jon
11:06 The Political Implications Of Ned Stark's Illegitimate Child
16:14 It Was Always Ned's Mistake
18:29 Catelyn's Fears Have Already Been Proven Right
19:32 Cat Could Have Been Better, But Most Would Have Been Worse
20:35 Jon & Cat Were Ned's Emotional Collateral Damage
22:07 The Fandom Double Standard Against Catelyn
23:05 Conclusion 
Развлечения
Lyanna: "I won´t marry Roberth he won´t be faithfull"
Also Lyanna: *Proceeds to have an affair with a married man*
😂 gave me a good chuckle lol
ruclips.net/video/Zgz5v_iAO9g/видео.html maybe thats the reason why Lyanna is like that.
True but the details of what happened are shadey at best. If Danny's visions on the show are to be believed (not sure if they happen in the books ive never read them) them Ellia was aware of Rhaegars desire for a 3rd kid that she couldn't provide. Nothing suggests she was unhappy about it, the Martels have a completely different approach to relationships than the rest of westeros and open relationships aren't uncommon. So saying Leanna had a affair with a married man is unfair. Its more likely that Rhaegar planned to take her as his second wife like Aegon the conqueror had 2 wives and its just as likely that he did it with Ellias blessing.
Without more context of their relationship we will never know what happened. The situation is entirely different. This quickly becomes a circular argument. I'm not saying what she did was right, just that we don't know enough to make that determination. Personally, I think it more likely that they tried to get word to Riverrun, where the Starks would be attending Brandon and Cat's wedding, and Hoster Tully told Brandon that Rhaegar had her, but not the how or the where. How else would he have known? So many questions, and jumping to a conclusion without evidence or ignoring evidence is foolish.
To be clear, I don't think very highly of Catelyn, but that has more to do with her actions outside of her relationship with Jon.
Good laugh but Rhaegar got an annulment
I think the "wicked stepmother" trope is reinforced by the show when Catelyn blames the misfortune of her family as the Gods punishing her for her failure to love Jon. This is a show-only scene, I think, and doesn't reflect book-Catelyn's feelings.
But that is such a great scene. It’s a shame the show didn’t revive her to become Stoneheart. Would love to see her reunion with Jon. Two zombies interacting with each other.
It is from the books. I don't see what's so unbelievable about her feeling bad about her treatment of Jon. She's not Cersei.
@@waltonsmith7210 She never has that inner dialogue.
She feels bad but she never thinks her treatment is wrong.
Jon is a bastard, if he is legitimized he can become a rival to her true born son, Robb.
@@DefaultName-du3kr Yeah, I know she felt guilty for her treatment twords Jon and there was a passage in the book where Catelyn was thinking that if she ever saw Jon again she would apologize. I don't think she was an evil stepmother just very cold towards him
@@sydneynorsworthy1431 Jon was legit scared of her to the point where he almost doesn't say goodbye to Bran. Robb asks how Cat treats him the final time they talk. This is not how you react to someone who is simply "cold" toward you, and even Cat's kids know she's a cunt to him.
I think if Ned had been honest with Cat about where Jon came from, she would have kept her mouth shut and actually loved him. Cat's ENTIRE being focuses on family and duty. she sees Ned as her family and he is her duty. I truly don't think she would have said anything about who Jon's real parents are to anyone. she would have taken that to the grave unless Ned said so.
Ned was an idiot for not trusting his wife. if anyone is to blame for Cat rejecting and being distant with Jon, it's Ned.
I think it's quite silly to think that Catelyn "released Jaime Lannister to save her daughters" Stark would have stayed quiet on Jon's parentage, since she already doesnt like Jon since he is a threat to her children. Finding out that he is a) still actually Stark and still potentially more favorable claim wise than her daughters and b) his parentage would make Robert very angry, would be inclined to protect Jon at all. She's not evil for that but Ned was probably right to keep it quiet.
@@user_.b 100% this. Doesn't make Cat a bad person but Jon's true parentage would make him potentially an even bigger threat to her children, and Ned keeping it a secret to everyone was his best possible option.
Anyone who abuses a child is bad. Idc abt what lead up to the circumstances
Cat is an idiot. She thinks she's so much smarter than everyone else, and she let's fear and emotions guide her actions. After leaving king's landing, Ned gave her very specific instructions, because Ned saw war on the horizon, and neededto prepare, he even told her as much, and instead of following those instructions. She took Tyrion captive, in her internal monolog, she even admitted that it might not be the best idea, but did it anyways, starting the war, and her daughter's imprisonment, the other daughter's vagabond lifestyle, and her husband's death.
Telling Cat would have been a horrible idea, I'm certain she would have arranged some kind of accident, or tried to use Jon in some idiotic attempt to play southron politicking that she is horrible at.
No I don't think she would have loved him had she been told the truth, and it's too big of a secret to let anyone know more than the ones who already knew or must know. Also it would've revealed to Catelyn that Jon is actually a legitimate claimant to the North and potentially a threat (in her mind) to her children's claims, whereas when he was a bastard there was no hope of him ever claiming Winterfell. I think ideally Ned should've told her at some point but I don't exactly blame him for being afraid of letting such an enormous secret out when all it would've done is make Catelyn trust him a little more and MAYBE MAYBE treat Jon a little better, but also greatly increase the chance of the secret getting out and putting his entire bloodline at risk of Robert's wrath. I mean can you imagine what Robert would do if he ever learned or suspected that Ned of all people had the son of Rhaegar and fucking Lyanna hiding in his court? I wouldn't put it path him to slaughter the Starks if he knew that, why would Ned ever risk that just for a minor improvement between the relationship between Catelyn and Jon, which is doubtful in all honesty even if she knew. By the time he would have told her, if he was going to, she would have had long already treated Jon poorly thinking he was a bastard she wouldn't just change her tune once she knew, the damage had already been done to any positive relationship they might've had. After all it's not like Ned would've told her the secret after returning to Winterfell with Jon, since he barely even knew her at the time and it would be many years before they fell in some sort of love.
I've always been aware of these dynamics and never hated Catelyn in the books, but it struck me that not everyone is as obsessed with medieval history as I am and might literally just transcribe modern day social dynamics to Westoros.
Yeah a lot of people judge characters based on modern values(mostly western modern values) even if it takes place in medieval times or in a different society with different values which is utterly stupid.
@@gregoryschweitzer1735 its because modern western morality is extremely unforgiving and unremorseful of ones circumstances. western morality is a one strike and youre forever a bad person with no chance of repentance system.
honestly we must look at ancient non religious but spiritual philosophy like stoicism if we have any chance of overcoming the insane moral decline of western culture.
the romans already faced this issue and solved it, they had a religion with no moral teachings similar to how the west has no religion now, so their solution was moral philosophy. in todays day and age where most people including myself are simply mentally incapable of accepting religion I don't see any other way out except through moral philosophy and teachings of self discipline and freedom through responsibility. but instead we live in world where a person sexual identiy or skin color is considered their most important traits not who they are as a person, mlk is rolling in his CIA provided grave.
@Gaming* If he had done that then it would've caused a serious breach with the Crown once it became known he was fostering a Targaryen child. Ned would probably call his banners rather than give the child up to Robert. it would be a whole mess.
Did u even Warch the show? It was pretty obvious! U do know this was a TV show? Why are u trying to put so much mystery in a small part of the overall plot line? Ned told her this is my Bastard son, I fucked around got some bar wench pregnant? So raise him as my child? She Hated him for being a symbol of Ned U faithfulness! The fact that Ned had the nerve to admit it and bring him home! Ned shud have told her it wasn't his son ut cudnt tell her who the hills parents really were?
@@gregoryschweitzer1735 it is not. We can gauge what was appropriate and ok in their society via context clues, but saying judging the characters by our own society's standard is stupid is infact what's truly ridiculous!
I think the problem with Catlyn's treatment of Jon is the trickle down effect. I think the reason why people think Catlyn was 'abusive' to Jon is because he wants to join the nights watch despite how well he is treated as a bastard.
Catlyn was only cold towards Jon, but everyone knew it and picked up on it and in their own subtle ways treated Jon accordingly. I think that's why Arya and Jon have a close bond, she's the only who treats him like a brother indiscriminately and the only two who look like Starks.
While Catlyn's feelings are valid, I think people's frustration is that her anger is expressed towards an innocent child rather than her cheating husband... She doesn't owe Jon being a mother, but(a lot people would say) she doesn't owe Ned a loving wife, but she gives Ned a loving wife.
Catlyn isn't perfect and for a bunch of reasons is just another complex character, she lost her betrothed then was forced to marry his brother, then he cheated on her and for all she knew, loved this child's mother so much he would probably legitimize Jon. Knowing she wasn't Ned's first choice of being a wife she probably didn't want that for Rob. I get it.
I think people also project onto Catlyn the failings and hurtful 'throwaway' actions that their own parents have done and how important their parents lack of love will make you feel, worthless, a burden, leading to anxiety and depression.
It's not solely Catlyn's actions, but her influence of others and how that effect drove Jon from his home. Her actions were small but her impact was large
How exactly does Cat's attitude towards Jon influence anyone around her other than perhaps Sansa?? Yes, Arya feels a special kinship with Jon. But this relationship is more symbolic than evidence that everyone else is cold towards Jon. Arya looks like Lyana. The fact that Arya feels a special kinship with Jon is meant to be foreshadowing. Bran who also serves as a Stark POV is fond of Jon. There is not a single POV that shows Robb treating Jon as anything but his brother. Jon certainly envies Robb, which is in some way understandable, but Robb even considers making Jon his heir after the alleged deaths of Bran and Rickon. That would have been a huge mistake as the video points out because Sansa would have been in peril. Even the Stark household treats Jon with warmth. In fact, Jon learns at the Wall that despite his baggage about being a bastard that he was incredibly privileged in winterfell compared to other recruits like Grenn or Pyp. Jon had a lordling's education despite being a bastard. And there's nothing on the text from any POV that Cat interfered in that aspect. She did her duty as Ned expected of her but that doesn't mean she has to like it. Even in our world, how many people, men or women, would willingly accept the product of their spouse's infidelity into their homes?? Not many. And if you say otherwise, you're lying.
Notice how Jon swears he'll never have a bastard? He's treated fairly well at home, but the greater society gives him hell about it.
Seriously. This and Glidus’s video on Cat are the only two I’ve seen that choose to look at her as she is (a complex, but ultimately flawed person who cherishes her family who is realistic about the world she lives in) instead of a mean bad person who is EVIL. People praise Tywin, Roose, and Baelish for their nuances and how they make them more interesting and complex characters, but few afford that reading to Cat.
Because to a lot of fans, the worst crime a character could ever commit is be mean to Jon. Lol I even saw some people that Cat is even worse than Cersei just because she was mean to Jon when Cersei threatened Robert to kill Mya Stone and ordered the murder of his bastards. But of course, they ate not Jon so it doesn't matter.
True. I actually like her.
@@yamatonadeshiko567 not to mention, Cersei is also cold towards her actual child, Tommen and insults him for not being like Joffrey.
Realistic of the world she lives in? Yeah, no.
Sexism… women are always hated for the doing the same thing a man is praised for.
Robb wanted to legitimize Jon and make him his heir should anything happen to him and Catelyn spoke out firmly against it with a lot of abusive language, comparing Jon to Theon, saying he isn't loyal to the family and would turn on them. Don't defend this woman's treatment of Jon, she is a good character and I think otherwise a good person, but her treatment of Jon is indefensible.
All her decisions have been selfish and absolute shit. She treated him poorly when they were alone.
@@aquasol333 how is she selfish she clearly loves her family deeply, just because she makes alot of mistakes does not make her selfish
@@gabrielethier2046 Capturing Tyrion, letting Jaime go, the Red Wedding. There are soooo many examples.
@@aquasol333 those were bad decisions but that doesnt make her selfish
@@gabrielethier2046 She made those selfish decisions because she is emotionally reactive and put her emotional needs over the well-being of her own family's good and her son's army.
I've never outright hated Catelyn, my feelings on her were always very complex. A lot of the issues the fandom has with Catelyn is the assumption that all the characters know and understand everything that is going on at the same time. All Catelyn knows about Jon Snow is that he's a product of Ned's infidelity. That's all. She doesn't know Lyanna and Rhaegar, nor does she know (nor care) about the Azor Ahai prophecy ect... In their society and religion, Ned acted insultingly to her. Catelyn didn't beat Jobn nor did she actively try to turn her children against him (something even modern-day stepparents do), so I would say, Catelyn is not that wicked at all. Just distant. Given how awful bastards are treated in this universe, I would say, even Jon knows that he has it good. Obviously her comment about Jon when Bran falls is so ugly and not at all defendable, even if Ned should've done better for both of them.
There IS a scene where Robb and Jon are playing swords and they call out who they are and at one point Jon calls himself lord of Winterfell and Robb says he's a bastard and his mom told him he can never inherit so i think briefly she definitely tried to put a wedge between the two of them
Cat turned Sansa against Jon as well, through Sansa's desire to be a dutiful daughter. I agree that Cat had no obligation to love Jon, you will never see me say that, but failing to recognize that you are denying your children a connection to a relative who did nothing wrong... She's better than Cersei, but that's the most I can give her. Her later actions are the reason I judge her anyway. Ned gave her a detailed list of things that needed to be done, and she proceeded to kidnap Tyrion on Baelish's say-so. I never understood why Cat still trusted him, she had to know about Lysa's child, they lived in the same castle at the time, and they were very close. Cat is nearly as willfully stupid as Ned.
@@hez859 I think Robb probably learned that from society before his mother, as Jon being a bastard was something he was consistently being reminded of from an early age and always being mocked for. Catelyn is not innocent of this, as she always called Jon "bastard" and rarely ever his actual name, which is just nasty.
She literally tells Jon (a fourteen-year-old child) that it should have been him who got mutilated as her final words to him before he was shipped off to the nights watch forever. To downplay her treatment toward him as "just distant" and/or actually-not-that-bad in the context of the universe is psychotic, she was without a shadow of a doubt an emotionally/verbally abusive step-parent to John and the same would still be true even if he WAS a product of Ned's infidelity.
Edit: Also she does quite literally also attempt to turn Sansa and Robb against Jon via bad mouthing him.
@@ayanna6327 Idk, the fact Catelyn tells Robb "he can never inherit winterfell" makes me think she tried to. When Robb tells Catelyn he intends to make Jon King in the north upon his death, she suggests getting a Royce instead lol
Cersei threatened to murder Mya when Robert suggested bringing her to court and said Catelyn was a mouse for not smothering Jon in his crib. Catelyn wasn’t a wicked stepmother. Thank you!🔥🔥🔥
Just because she didn’t kill him doesn’t mean she wasn’t a bitch
Oh but she was.. imagine a 14 ye old guy ready to give up Everything just so he could move away from his house .. tell me how would have his life been there.. seeing that Ned chose to stay quiet about it as did Rob, Sansa was just like her mother.. and seeing how Sansa brought it up the moment she got alone time with Jon says how bad it would’ve been for Jon to live there .
Also, you know it’s a lost cause when Cersi is the benchmark for comparison
@@hadikhan5197 Would you say that Ned abused Theon?
@@hadikhan5197 ... Correct! Fact is that Catelyn was a piece of garbage even with her own kids. There's a YT channel named; Order of the Green Hand, that made a 5 videos tilted; Why Catelyn Sucks, and once you see them, you'll realize that all those defending that evil woman are laughable as they have no discernment lol. They point out everything that many ppl totally overlooked. Try to watch those vids if you get a chance 👍
Well, not all stepmothers are like Ellaria Sand or Wanda Bolton. Although, Jon has almost same body count as the Sand Snakes and Ramsay
Honestly, if Ned told Catlyn about Jon's ancestry, then she would have sold Jon down the river as soon as it became convenient for her own family. We see her defying Ned and Robb constantly, only worsening situations, because she thinks it will help her children. Jon would have just been a get out of jail free card for her.
Either that or she'd kill him herself for the threat he represented. It wouldn't be usurpation, but Robert and friends eliminating House Stark. Cat wouldn't let that happen.
Or he could have made a more belivable lie by saying Jon is Brandon's son. Which is actually belivable given Brandon's wild nature.
Im not sure she would have. House Tully's words are family duty honor. She would understand that Ned is protecting his nephew and doing his duty to his sister. Honor comes last in their words for a reason. Ned is the one person who can get away with anything as long as Robert is alive. Assuming Jon Arryn still dies then book one proceds as normal. Cat remebers a time when she prayed to the seven and said she would treat Jon as her own. Ned could tell her at this time and then come Joffery beheading Ned she won't turn Jon over assuming he didn't join the nights watch anyway. Ned has five other children so Jon might do it.
@@spiritofarkham1235 Brandon was dead a full year before Jon's birth.
@@AssasiCraftYogUscus So say Jon was born early.
I get that a lot of people feel bad that Jon didn't have a mother figure in his life but that is also on Ned (and GRRM). As a high-born woman, Cat probably wasn't spending time affirming her kid's feelings and making crafts with them. Her job was to bear as many heirs as she could and manage her husband's estate. The feeding and raising of the children would have been done by nurses and nannies. In real life there are many examples of aristocratic people having close relationships with former nannies to the point they prefer them over their own mothers! We only see Old Nan and Septa Mordane and hear about Wylla but really Jon should have had a wet nurse that was like a mother to him and filled that role for him.
and by the looks of it, she was actually motherly to her children anyways, saying that Cat is a bad mother for being mean to Jon is hilarious
I think for Ned, being good to his sister's son, the child that she died giving birth to and begged him to take care of, is the only way that he has left to show his love for Lyanna. I can understand that. That doesn't change what the effect of his actions on people like Catelyn, who didn't ask to be in that situation. Let's remember that *Jon* didn't ask to be in that situation, either.
There was no good answer to the situation. I can't blame Ned for not being honest with Catelyn on this point; he didn't know her well at first and by the time he did, he knew her well enough to know that if it ever came down to it she might very well sell Jon's secret out for her children's sake. Whether that would be justified or not would depend on the situation and it's not a risk Ned wanted to take. By then, he was locked into his lie. He wasn't a good liar to begin with and that, too, made a bad situation.
Catelyn did not owe motherhood to a child not of her body. But she did owe him basic decency, as much as one person ever owes another and even more because she was in a position of power over him. I don't think she was the "wicked stepmother" but I do think she channeled her anger and resentment into her treatment of Jon, and into her refusal to keep Jon close. The argument that Jon's grandchildren could have been a risk to her children is *possible* but highly unlikely unless he married surprisingly well. She could have raised up to be loyal and seen him married to a lowborn girl whose sons could never threaten sons of the trueborn Stark line. She could have taken other steps that were kinder; she chose not to. I don't think that makes her evil, or a "wicked stepmother" by any means. But I do think it's valid to criticize her choice to handle her concerns the way she did, and to handle her feelings that way as well.
Finally, what she said to Jon over Bran's sickbed was horrific. Moreover, she tried to keep him from saying his goodbyes to his brother. Let's be clear; they both had every reason to believe that would be the last time that Jon saw Bran alive. He was NOT expected to survive his fall and coma. Catelyn's grief was overpowering, and I can understand that. But her desire to keep Jon from saying goodbye was cruelty. Just that; cruelty. She chose that cruelty, and that goes beyond words that might be, if not excusable, understandable.
What it comes down to for me is simple. Catelyn is complicated; she's not a wicked stepmother but she's not proof from criticism for her actions, either. And she *shouldn't* be. It's better all the way around for the situation to be more nuanced than that.
Exactly that most characters in asoiaf (except really vile ones like the mountain ramsay etc) are multi dimentional and complicated Catelyn was n't a bad person but she still treated Jon poorly as about Ned I don't really think he did bad for not saying to her about Jon's parentage we see in asoiaf most of Catelyn's actions are very impulsive and she also trusts her sister too much and Lysa is a wild card, I think if Ned told her about Jon's parents littlefinger would know it as fast a crow flies from wintefell to the vale and then kings landing.
Jon snow children ARE a treath to her line tho, if jon is legitimize they directly compete with her line, remember the backfire rebellion? legitimized bastards and highborn against one another?
Classifying Ned as having put his entire family in mortal danger as a justification for Catelyn’s cruelty to Jon as he left for the watch is a bit excessive I think. Yes he did open the door to Jon being considered as a potential rival claimant to Winterfell, however it does not seem in Jon’s nature to usurp the Stark children he believes to be his half siblings. All characters are nuanced. I think people are too hard on Cat for her choices but her tendency to take out her frustration on Jon isn’t right either. Ned absolutely should have come up with a better cover story regarding Jon, but since he’s a terrible liar the more simple the story the better. I agree that him telling Cat the truth about Jon would have endangered Jon’s life and broken the promise he made to protect him. It’s a shame that Cat’s nature is such that Ned couldn’t trust her with the truth, as I think she would’ve have been open to being a mother to Ned’s orphan nephew.
I dont know why he couldn't just tell her
@@gabrielethier2046 Cause she would tell Lisa and then in a matter of time it would be known in the whole Westeros that he hides a Targaryen or she would non stop ask him in an even more pressing way to get rid of Jon cause it's dangerous to hide a Targaryen and then ask Lisa's advice and then same thing. I wouldn't tell her either the way she caught Tyrion in the inn abandoning her previous plan and disguise just to catch him without even thinking or caring about the consequenses and what was the Lannister plan at that point, shows how impulsive she is no way I'd tell her either sorry.
I've just discovered this channel, and I must say, you do have a refreshing and special perspective on certain sacred cows of the ASOIAF fandom, which I appreciate. Well done.
While as you state, Catelyn's dislike of Jon is well reasoned, she did end up poisoning the well, as it were.
In Storm of Swords, in conversation with Tormund, we see that Jon has this major insecurity about fathering bastards, when it comes to sleeping with Ygritte, to the detriment of his complex duty to the Night's Watch, and infiltration of Mance Rayder's camp. All the result of Catelyn's disapproval.
Of course, Jon, being less likely to father children isn't a problem for Cat. Mission Accomplished. This attitude of 'No Bastards Allowed', this sense of shame, did end up (Indirectly) poisoning another son at Winterfell....
Robb, her Heir.
This may, to a great extent, still be laid at Ned's feet (Bringing Jon in the first place, creating the anxiety in Cat, and instilling an ironclad sense of honour in Robb), throw the extra constraint of 'No Bastards' into the mix resulted in the foolish marriage to Jeyne Westerling, due to a one night stand. The combination of Ned's rigid honour and Cat's noxious disapproval, led to the breaking the betrothal to the Frey's. Had Cat (In this case, Cat needed to be the one to pull this particular thorn from the direwolf's paw), done as Cersei did with Joffrey in early GoT Season 1, and given him a Bird's and the Bees talk, letting him know, that whilst not moral, it is not the end of the world to sully a virgin, and father a bastard, this singularly bad decision could have been avoided. Even honourable parents would make allowances for their children, that they would never for themselves. Acknowledge the child, as Robert did with Edric, provide for his needs, keep him away. But don't compromise your family's security out of shame.
Combined with her own stressed, grieving, family minded instinct to take the opportunity to release Jaime Lannister for the faint hope of saving her daughters, not only cost them the Karstark forces, it removed the one incentive Tywin Lannister had to not assassinate Robb and Co. Creating the perfect storm, which was to become The Red Wedding. Which lead ultimately to the death of Robb, herself, as well as the death or capture of the greater part of the family powerbase....
Leaving the task of rebuilding House Stark to outsiders, like Wyman Manderly, Stannis and Littlefinger. And it would be a poetic twist, if Jon ends up being the loyal architect of her children's restoration, or worse, King of the North. (Though I doubt ASOIAF will play out as GoT does).
In any event, very insightful video. Thank you.
Very good point about Rob and Jeyne!
In a lot of discussions of Jon and Cat and the Starks's reaction to bastards is that Jon is the only bastard that they know, which probably isn't true.
I know Cat doesn't treat Jon like her own, but also knowing that Jon is the best treated bastard that they know has also got to influence a lot of the decisions, the Starks make. Robb's decision to marry Jeyne was dumb, and honestly all his own stupidity.
Robb should have kept his word with the Freys(like Ned did to the Tullys), to keep his honor and because *they were in the middle of a war* ... I also feel like he should have had faith in that Jeyne would have treated her child as well as Cat treated her children. If he was worried about the 'evil stepmother' he should leave the child with the mother(Not like Ned). Even if he does end up marrying Jeyne, wait until the end of the war, there really shouldn't have been a rush.
I do agree that Cat made a mistake with Jaime though, and I wish she would have been harder on Robb about keeping the betrothal and keeping him focused on the war, at least tried to delay the wedding by sending Jeyne home or something.
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 Keep in mind, Robb, was at this point a 15 year old boy, who recently lost his father, his sisters, to the best of his knowledge are imprisoned, likely to be killed, after they produce Lannister heirs. He is saddled with the responsibility of Kingship, is fighting a War in which he is heavily outnumber, is recovering from an injury taken in battle, and is distraught over news his brothers and heirs have been killed by his former best friend.
Was it a bad decision, of course. However, even by Westerosi standard Robb is still in his minority. And in any circumstance the behaviour of a child is the responsibility of the parents and their upbringing. No matter the privilege of his birth (And even exacerbated by that sheltered upbringing, delaying maturity which a child of poverty would be forced into). As King his decisions and all those of his subjects are his responsibility (See. Rickard Karstark killing the Lannister children). Teenagers in real history have made exceedingly competent war leaders, but civil, social and diplomatic matters are nearly always best served by maturity. Robb was clever enough to put Catelyn on the backfoot by publicly forgiving her release of Jaime, so he isn't ignorant of his decision.
But it was a lapse of judgement, under crushing stress, and much of ASOIAF centres on children, being thrust into a world which eats capable adults alive. These situations will twist many (See Daenerys) into doing things ordinary children wouldn't have. You have the freedom to place blame on the children, if you so choose. However, their parents choices, and moral judgements are something impressionable minors absorb, far more than material provisioning.
I've been binging your videos this weekend and honestly they're giving me so much joy!! Having someone analyse GOT through a female and more nuanced stance is so refreshing. I feel like a lot of the game of thrones fandom, both from the show and the books, are very quick to villainise characters like Cat and Sansa without trying to put themselves in their shoes or taking into account their perspectives as women, so your videos are a breath of fresh air!!
Exactly the same here... I like David Lightbringer, too. Totally differend POV though.
I didn't think that i would enjoy ASOIAF that much again after the last season without the next book comes out.. (and i don't have too much hope that George will publish it).
@@riderNo5 idc who you are or your political stance is....wishing death on a 14 year old simply for being alive is wrong, no matter what the time frame is 🤷🏾♂️
I het the time frame and the culture of it all but even Catelyn said the Starks and northeners on general had a different opinion on bastards
@@hez859 she said that when she was mad with grief and stress about her son, she was basically out of her mind and hadn't slept for god knows how long. GRRM himself said so.
@@tam6753She also says Ned would have "done the boy no favors leaving him with her" when everyone went to King's landing. Insinuating without Ned to protect him, she would have tried to make his life worse. She isn't "indifferent" as people love to keep saying on this thread, she was still angry and bitter about the situation and was going to project that on him. The channel is correct, she is no Cersei Lannister, but it still really doesn't excuse her behavior towards him
@@hez859 you're going against what the writer himself has said about the character lol.
Your points explain the nuances of catelyns character, and I do like her and think a lot of the hate the fandom gives her can be chalked up to sexism, but I also dont think any of this disproves the "wicked stepmother" myth. Firstly, Jon describes in his chapters when Catelyn made him cry as child and deliberately excluded him. The cruelty of the "it should have been you" line may have been unusual for even her due to her stress and mental state, but its clear in the same chapter that Jon was already anticipating her to be cruel to him. You say that refusing to give affection to a child that isnt yours isnt abuse, but when that child lives in your household, is brother to your children, and is one you see nearly everyday from the time he is a child, I would argue that it is. There are real world examples of how this unacknowledgment affects children and based on how Jon reflects on his childhood in the books, it affected him too.
This video brings to light cats side of the story and shows that it is not just pure jealousy that motivates catelyn and for that I like it, but I don't think that undermining Jons responses to cats behaviour of him, or comparing Jons privilege to other bastards in the universe and cats relative "kindness" when compared to ladies like cersei disproves that she is a wicked stepmother to Jon.
In my opinion, letting Cat be the evil stepmother makes her more interesting. Catelyn is a nuanced character. She is overall "good" but has flaws. These flaws stem from complex and varied sources. This is what makes her real and enjoyable to read about. I dont think choosing to justify a huge part of her negative characteristics improves the story.
Reminds me of a horrific psych experiment where they had several newborns but ONLY gave them necessary care, as in food and cleaning. Everyone one of them died from neglect.
yes, i was wondering the same. i reread the first book very recently, and the fact that jon was used and anticipated catelyn's cruelty was clear sign to me that she indeed was a "wicked stepmother". when she tells him "we don't want you here", he even thinks, "i am used to this. i expected this. i won't back down this time for brans sake". it is not sexist to call out a horrible treatment jon suffered at the hands of cat. she is kinder than others, but she is a complex human being, so of course she has her flaws. it is fine to note them.
You bring up an interesting point. I think many of us have long wished Ned told Cat the truth before the show began. And I think he should have. No question. BUT the danger would still have been there. I mean, I suppose they could have offered to give him a piece of the north and his own legitimized family name. But like Cat feared, that could have ended up a problem generations down the line. Heck, forget the Karstarks. The GREYSTARKS tried to do that in the past.
I think keeping quiet about it was more about avoiding going to war with Robert over him finding out. Tell everyone who Jon is and you split the kingdom. I think the south loses that war but no one wins it.
The only person that knew the secret lived on a floating island in the middle of nowhere that no one had seen since. That’s how Ned wanted to keep it. But if he made better decisions, you wouldn’t have these great books.
The Karstarks try it in the present story line, with trying to force Alys the real heir into marrying the great uncle, who is second or third in line so as to legitimate their theft - she knows they'll kill her!
There's another minor detail that I feel like was overlooked. Jon and his wet nurse were at Winterfell BEFORE the rightful lady of the manor was. That's such an insult to Catelyn, who not only married but also provided an heir to Ned, all while being on her own and without the markings of her status. To be deemed less important than a bastard is not a good feeling for any woman in her position to have. Ned basically declared to the entire world that his mistake took precedence over honoring his wife and hier.
Child abuse is never justified.
Women exist to serve men. If Ned can go out and die for Cat then he can have other children. If he dies and Cat has a girl in her that is the end of the name of Ned. It is the duty of women to give their husbands a peaceful home that includes his other children because it is his duty to risk being taken out of the sexual market early while she gets taken by someone else to give give the new guys children. Even in that culture a woman must please her husband. If Ned did not want Jon treated like that then she should not have treated him like that.
@@majeedmamah7457 good thing she never abused him then
@@peyotebritta neglect is abuse.
@@majeedmamah7457 am I neglecting my neighbours child? No, because I have no obligation to care for my neighbours child. People like to act like Catelyn was John’s evil stepmother. This isn’t the case because she’s not his stepmother (or evil). He’s her husbands bastard child and would have certainly had a worse life if he was born into almost any other family in Westeros. This could have been different if she knew the truth. You must also think poorly or Ned, by this logic, by allowing Johns ‘abuse’ (which there is no textual evidence for)
I am curious how they could've said that Benjen had a bastard born in the south when Benjen was at Winterfell during the entire year-long war. Brandon would've dead nearly as long, so Ned was the only viable option.
Well they really could have said anyone, Benjen or Brandon were just the first that occurred to me because it would explain his Stark-like looks. But honestly, I don't think Ned's cover story made any sense either.
@@HillsAliveYT I suppose it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense to us, but that it does in world. Remember, the smallfolk and even the high lords like to believe the worst in people, so to see that the honorable Ned Stark wasn't so above it all that they were to cast aside any idea of who they're talking about and simply enjoy the scandal.
@@sertorrhenclegane Well actually I'm curious to see if this becomes a plot point in the books, because while I agree with your perspective for the most part, I feel like at least a few people must question this narrative, and it's extremely easy to put together that Ned Stark would never besmirch his honor and he came home with a baby after finding his mysteriously dead and notoriously raped sister. Like, aside from creating a dangerous situation for the Starks in general, it seems outrageously easy to figure out what may have happened if a remotely savvy person thought about it for more than a few seconds, which has also made me wonder who knows who Jon really is already just by powers of deduction.
@@HillsAliveYT It is entirely possible, though I think many of the people who might've known are dead by now. Outside of Howland Reed, I think Roose Bolton might know, Barbary Dustin and possibly the Greatjon's uncles, who are not unintelligent men.
@@sertorrhenclegane True, and I suspect Baelish and Varys would figure it out if they thought about it for a few minutes, and to be honest I find it more than a little suss that Catelyn never even questioned it, she's pretty sharp and she's had a lot of time to think about it.
This is the Catelyn video I’ve always wanted to find! I’ve felt for years she’s always gotten an unearned bad rep in the fandom and that it’s intrinsically tied to how critically we view mothers/women who fail to live up to those expectations. New sub.
You make a great point. Our society holds mothers to high standards of behavior and is super critical if women don't meet them, where fathers are often given a pass. I remember a few years back when a small child got into a gorilla enclosure at a zoo, and the gorilla was shot and killed when it seemed to pose a threat to the child. The outpouring of vitriol against the mother for not having prevented the child from getting in there was enormous. The father, who was also there, was not blamed.
This video needed to be made. Catelyn isn't the sharpest sword in the armory, but she was not abusive to Jon. Jon wanted a mother, but Catelyn couldn't be that without putting herself and her own kids at risk, so Jon went without. That is why I think many are willing to turn on Catelyn. Jon's one of our heroes, so Catelyn, who denied him the mothering he so craved, must be a villain.
However, there's an additional angle to Catelyn's precarious situation that you missed, namely that until Bran came along, Robb was Catelyn's only SON. Every time she went to the birthing bed, Catelyn risked her life, yet after Robb she got Sansa and Arya, worthless girls. If she'd died, or Robb died, or Robb turned out to be sterile as an adult, Jon's sons really could lay claim to Winterfell and Catelyn's entire life would have amounted to nothing. Sansa and Arya could have ten strong sons each, but Jon would be Ned's son, providing an unbroken male line. By the time Bran and Rickon come along, Catelyn's relationship to Jon is set. Had Sansa and Arya been boys, perhaps Catelyn could have had a warmer relationship with Jon, but until her line was solidified with at least an heir and a spare, Jon had to be kept at arms length. Unfortunately Jon suffered for that through no fault of Catelyn's.
Well I only half agree with what you've said about the angle I missed though. I think that calling the girls worthless is a bit of a stretch, there's a reason why Tyrion married Sansa and Ramsay pretended to be married to Arya, and why Sansa is still such a hot commodity, because the girls do have very legitimate claims to Winterfell. And obviously if they all found themselves in the exact situation that wound up coming to pass, it would be a mess. It's much easier to sell the idea of making Jon the Lord when the girls are married to enemies of their families against their will, but having those claims could be the only thing keeping them alive when they're in enemy hands so it's entirely understandable that Catelyn would be concerned that they could be so easily cast aside.
The fact that Catelyn's other sons were so much younger than Jon definitely added an extra complication to the situation too. And I don't think Catelyn's life would have amounted to nothing, or rather I don't think that was her concern, I think the bigger issue is that Jon makes the line of succession sketchier and therefore her children could actually be in danger as a result of it, which is totally valid. Having a solid line of inheritance generally helps all of her kids, whereas having someone who could potentially rival their claims obviously harms them because anyone who is looking to support their rivals would be much better off if they were dead.
And I agree, I think that Jon being an obvious hero is largely why everyone villainizes Catelyn specifically, because he's so obviously coded as good then she must be evil for not loving him. But there are plenty of illegitimate characters in the story and no one is wondering why random people aren't putting their lives at risk to parent them. Plus of course GoT didn't help with their whole "all I wished for was for Jon Snow to die and I am the worst person who ever lived for not loving him" thing.
Lmao that's really weird. Jon as a bastard in no way has a better claim than any legitimate heir. Unless you think he would try to forcibly marry his sisters.
Cat is in fact the sharpest sword of the bunch. Only Sansa and maybe Jon come close to being as brilliant as she is in situations.
@@BenJover I mean when it comes between a Daughter and a Bastard child raised with all the noble privileges I feel the bastard child gets the leg up.
@@Argos-xb8ek What textual evidence supports that?
Actually on one thing I have to disagree with you one one small Details, 19:00
Sansa would not have been valueless, she had value to them when she was only like 3rd in line to Winterfell and to the people who follow the Lannisters Stannis laws and edicts have no meaning as he was not the true King so Sansa would in the eyes of the Iron Throne still be rob Stark's heir
I have no ideas why your videos are blowing up on my recommendations but I ain’t complaining.
I think it’s more telling that Ned never mentioned who Jon’s mother was. Whether it be Ashara Dayne or Lyanna Stark, Ned couldn’t trust her with his biggest secret. If the boy was Ashara no problem they had met before thier marriage to each other. Lyanna’s case is even more interesting, Cat would have probably understand why Ned would take his Nephew as his son to protect him. The Tully words are “Family. Duty. Honor” Family comes first to the Tullys before Duty and Honor, so why did Ned never told her unless he saw something that he didn’t like.
Cat was always trying to get her children to be more like southern lords. Sansa was given the idea that she would marry a prince after all. Ned would have refused Robert for handship but Cat wanted him to go even before the Lannister Plot. Maybe Ned saw Cat as ambitious and would use Jon to her benifit to her children
Ned didn't trust her. And with reason, she was a loose cannon. She let Jaime go before discussing it with Robb who was the then King in the North, didn't she?
I disagree, Cat would have been worse. Because at the end of the day Jon would still be a bastard and assumed a child of rape. And the descendent of a man who killed a number of her in-laws by burning one alive and strangling the other. He also is a liability because of Robert were to somehow find out, the whole family would be put into jeopardy from Robert's wrath. Jon may be family, but he's not HER family.
@@pixiewings21_9 to be fair, she did it to protect her children, but that's the whole point. A stark/Targaryen with a claim to the throne. There is not much benefit for her or her own children, more of a threat because if Robert would have found out that Ned had that child kept secret, who knows what he would've done. So letting Jamie go/giving her nephew up to protect her own children could he a possibility.
A secret is only a secret as long as no one else knows.
@@valerieickstadt4044 Cat didn't know Jon was a Targaryen. So why would she be worried about a threat to the throne???
I fully understand her motives in letting Jaime go. I even understand why she didn't love Jon. But I cannot excuse her lack of *kindness* towards a motherless infant. She was an adult, Jon a mere child. It was monstrously unfair of her to inflict her anger or frustration on someone who could not defend himself.
@@pixiewings21_9 because if Ned had told her, then she would have known🤷🏻♀️
She is a human with flaws, George writes real people. Was she politically motivated in her treatment of Jon, yes! Should politics affect how you treat a child, no. Did she have good reason to be upset and politically motivated, yes. Does this forgive everything, no. She wasn't a bad person who abused Jon but she was a hurt insecure person that did not treat a child as well as she should have. Ned put her in a tough position but ultimately you are in control of your own actions. I see Catelyn as a flawed but good person. She isn't a role model or a standard to aspire to, but she is also not a villain or abuser. She is a flawed and insecure mother trying to do what is best for her child, and I can respect that. Even if I disagree with some of her decisions and actions.
To be fair, Catelyn's interaction with Jon when he tries to see Bran is implied to be one of only many similar interactions with Jon, to paraphrase him, remarking that remarks like that previously would have sent him running or reduced him to tears but that as a future man of the Night's Watch, he would be facing things more terrifying than Catelyn Tully in the future and so pressed on. After his interaction with Cat, he meets with Robb who instantly notes that something is wrong with Jon and questions if it was interacting with his mother that brought upon Jon's negative disposition, once again implying this Catelyn's remarks towards Jon weren't out of the ordinary but were something common enough that even Robb was well aware of them and their impact on Jon. Jon lies to Robb that Catelyn was kind to him seemingly to not spoil his last interaction with his brother.
And while Catelyn is ineed justiifed in her fear that Jon could produce children to later usurp the position of Lord Paramount of the North from her legitimate sons, I don't think that indicates she wasn't so much distrustful of Jon as she was of his potential children. Jon, after all, had solemnly vowed that he would never father a bastard which he told his Uncle Benjen in their interaction at the party at Winterfell. It was Ben's suggestion that by taking up the Black, Jon would never be able to father children which prompted this comment which left Jon deeply angered and emotionally comprised which indicates how important his promise to never bring another bastard into the world meant to him. It's also worth noting that Catelyn was vigorously opposed to Robb legitimizing and naming Jon his heir in his will as a result of Bran and Rickon seemingly being dead and the girls being thought Lannister hostages. This further points to innate distrust she had of Jon, personally, given Robb's actions were completely understandable given the military and political situation at the time.
Catelyn, however, never interacted with Jon enough to have been made privy to this fact or to have heard it from her children or Ned, who Jon is undoubtedly must closer to. I can understand the humiliation of being asked to raise her husband's bastard and completely sympathize with her position as I certainly wouldn't have been able to stomach such a situation even if I'm approaching this form the perspective of a man rather than a woman. Even still, her interactions with Jon clearly horribly impacted Jon's sense of self worth and while she didn't poison her children against him, that might just have made them alert Ned to her comments or end up colored against Catelyn as a result of her attempt to demean Jon. As we see from Jon lying to Robb about Catelyn treating him kindly just after the interaction at Bran's bedside , it's very likely that Jon never ran to Robb or Ned to anyway complain about Cat. Furthermore, I feel Cat was more happy with Jon being out of sight and out of mind rather than aggressively pursuing him for the sole purpose of harassing him. Ignoring his existence probably made her feel much better than hurting his feels ever did.
Have you ever been the bastard child in a similar situation where your actual parent and your step parent treat you differently than the other 'true born' children? I have, and I feel much worse for Jon. I know I am biased, but Jon was a child and Catelyn was the adult. You're right, though, that most of this was Ned's fault.
Catelyn doesn’t have a choice. Most modern women in this situation can divorce and never see the child, and most wouldn’t expect them too, because they have no obligation to the child. Cat can’t divorce Ned, and she had no say in him living with her. People don’t take kindly to having a child forced on them.
People often defend without condoning Tywin cruelty for the period and position he lived in, mainly because do to his competency and how he functions; even though the point of his death was to show the flaws of cruelty.
I think the reason people don’t analyze or try to understand Cat the same way (even through her situation is obvious) is because of her failings. She made big moves that had major consequences on others, so she is viewed as incompetent and dumb. People shrug her problem with Jon as character trait and her being too dumb or not intrapersonal enough to know that he’s cruel; instead of looking at it as a situational/mental problem. Tywin was smart effective and got his way, so he sparked more intrigue and thought through this character because of his impact to the story with his ability to drive the plot on his own terms. I never got the impression that Cat wanted to hate Jon or that she was stupid (though short on hindsight). The biggest roles she had on the plot was her not being competent which make the people think less of her mentality.
Good point
The perception of Tywin is another aspect of the ASOIAF fandom that really interests me as well, because I find it fascinating that people seem to separate his competency from his cruelty rather than seeing his cruelty as an example of his incompetency. Tywin was good at getting his way in the short-term, but it seems obvious that his unnecessary brutality is going to lead to the complete collapse of his house (at least the mainline Lannisters), and frankly if your default method for getting your way is to slaughter everyone who disagrees with you, then calling that "competent" seems like a bit of a stretch.
And Cat definitely made mistakes, but she also had to play a reactive role rather than an active one, and the people that she had to take her cues from, Ned and Robb, had a habit of making bad decisions. Ultimately, everyone in the story winds up making terrible decisions at one point or another, but it's very interesting to see the biases of the readers or viewers who can look at someone like Tywin as competent and badass, Ned as someone honorable and just, and Cat as someone stupid and cruel.
I wonder if Jon’s general treatment was better due to them fostering Theon. It wouldn’t be odd that all the Maester lessons, combat lessons, riding and hunting lessons, and social events would’ve been adjusted to include Theon as another noble not of legit Stark blood. Adding Jon to that instead of having him be the sole odd reason for the accommodations made would’ve eased some tension.
Exactly! I love Jon and Cat and it’s obvious they are both powerless in this situation. Thank s for another great video.
Agreed, they are both people who are victims of an entirely unjust system, and because of the natural injustice built into Westerosi society there is no "right" way to handle the situation that they both find themselves in unwillingly.
Nope. SHe is not powerless at all. She chose to hate Jon. To hate an innocent child without a single reason. Her only justified hate should have been towards Ned and the woman, not against the baby. And only because you fear the (very, very unlikely) possibility that a bastard can maybe some time in the future contest 5 trueborn children in feudal system (even though he never showed any hint of such desire) is no justification for hating him.
@@petrmaly9087 exactly. She prayed that he would die
@@HillsAliveYT it is beyond unreasonable to hold the child to the standard of the grown woman. She made Jon's life worse of her own volition. He was a *child*
@@HillsAliveYT never forget the only time Catelyn EVER said his name was to tell him it should have been him that got hurt instead of Bran. 14 years old and the first time she says his name is to wish his death. Lol she wasn't as bad as some highborn women but she sure as hell wasn't kind
Speaking of Benjen, if he didn’t take the black and married some heiress instead , Jon could live with him in his castle, much like how Edric Storm lived with Renly at storm’s end.
Love to see this analysis of Cat by someone who has truly immersed themselves in the personal and political dynamics that have to be acknowledged to assess her fairly. Such a great *character* in a political fantasy series.
Thanks! And obviously I agree, like yes Catelyn could have done things differently with Jon and perhaps better, but to ignore the massive political implications of what's happening when Jon is being raised alongside all of Ned's trueborn children and what the implications would have been had Catelyn decided to become a mother to Jon does a real disservice to Cat as a character and to all of the ridiculously detailed world-building GRRM put into writing the story.
Ned did not fail to plan ahead for John. It says he planned to name him lord of a holdfast somewhere in the North, similar to what happened with the Karstarks I suppose. He just lost his head before any of this could happen
When did Ned say that?
I still think Ned should have tried to pass Jon off as Brandon's bastard son. His older brother Brandon was about as promiscuous as Robert, so he almost certainly has a few bastards out there, some likely conceived on his way south to confront the Mad King.
I never understood why Ned didn’t tell Catelyn. I think she would have understood how serious the secret was and been just as protective of Jon. I understand that there would still be the risk still of being lord of winterfell if the people rejected Rob tho
He was scared for his nephew's life. He simply didn't trust anybody with this knowledge. Jonh was basically the heir to the throne. You gotta keep shit like that under wraps. He knew that even a single mention of this to his friend king Robert would mean the death of John. That's why he was so against Robert wanting Dani dead. In my eyes he was thinking about what Robert would do to jonh if he ever found out. Ned should have kept quiet and not tell cersie that he knew about her children. He kept the biggest secret in all of Westeros but couldn't keep quiet on that. Dude should have played the long game.
No way….even Catelyn couldn’t be trusted. She was subservient to a degree, but when push came to shove she made her own decisions.
Kidnapping a Lannister, for example.
If it came down to her kids and Jon, she’d let the world know he was a Targaryen in a millisecond.
I get why he didnt told her straight away, but he could have told her later when its pretty clear she is nothing but a loving mother and that she wont do anything against jon , and their relationship is that strong.
I get not telling her straight away, but it a failur he never told her.
Besides pretty sure sh would realize jon wants nothing to do with that and go to the wall, why wouls she worry.
She showed every sign that she wasn't to be trusted when it came to Jon. Also, Ned didn't really known her when they got married.
@@daysofapril2667 That would be incredibly stupid as it would be AT BEST damning her to and Robb to ruin and disgrace and most likely signing her death warrant, Robb's death warrant, and very possibly the death warrants for her father, brother, and sister and Jon Arryn. Remember Hoster and Jon Arryn already conspired to depose one monarch, now their respective son-in-law and brother-in-law Ned was found harboring a Targaryen and lying his supposed best friend the king? They're all dead. And that's before you add in that Tywin would have JUMPED at the chance get 3 rival houses out of the way and put 3 separate great houses in allied hands so he could have 5 of the 7 kingdoms under his control
THANK YOU for this! 90% of Cat takes drive me up the wall, so this was more than welcome!
LOL same, for some absolutely baffling reason most ASOIAF/GoT fans can excuse the most abhorrent, batshit crazy things on account of this just being a fantasy world where it's considered normal (even though in my view a lot of those things GRRM goes out of his way to paint as very NOT normal), and yet when it comes to Catelyn and Jon, all of the context for the world that they live in goes out the window and she is personally responsible for everything that has ever gone wrong in Jon's life. Obviously she doesn't do or say everything perfectly, but everything she actually does do wrong seems to be outrageously overblown.
@@HillsAliveYT As much as I dislike it I think a lot of fans of the books genuinely dislike characters who are, and enjoy being, feminine. Sansa gets a lot of hate for the same reason despite being, well, a preteen girl. Catelyn is the most prominent truly feminine woman in the series who gets a lot of screen time as it were.
@@neodigremo I honestly think there a lot of between the line moments that are not really covered in this video that supports the idea Catelyn was indeed cruel to Jon. I like Cat a lot as a character but there are some nuances not really talked about that kind of feel conveniently left out
@@hez859 I am not a fan of reading between the lines when every character has an......well I assume every POV chapter is how the character sees things and not how things "are". By which I mean there is no word in GOT that is presented by an omniscient narrator.
Or in other words, unless it is in the lines I do not feel compelled to accept it.
21:21 "Cat did not have to be a mother to Jon."
No, she didn't. He's not her son, she's not his mother, and she didn't have to be.
She also didn't have to emotionally abuse a child to the point that he was terrified of her. He was afraid to be in the same room with her way before the "It should have been you" line. He talked about how he would run from her crying. That was not the one instance of her lashing out at him.
I saw in another comment you said you remembered Jon's perspective, you just don't think it's valid because he's young...That feels like a dangerous perspective to take with this topic.
Well we can agree to disagree, but I don't think Jon's opinion is invalid because he's young, I just think that considering that we have zero context for what actually happened then there isn't a ton of information that can be gleaned from it. And again, the hurdle that I can't really get over is that Ned basically scared Cat into obedience when she asked about Ashara Dayne once, and when Ned told her to never mention Ashara again, she didn't. Ergo, if Catelyn spent Jon's entire life abusing him like many people assume, that would mean that for no apparent reason, Ned never told her not to. Similarly, the vast majority of context clues to not indicate that Cat abused him, like literally no one else in Winterfell treats Jon differently, so if he was Cat's constant scapegoat you'd think there would be at least a few ways in which that was evident in the way that Jon was treated by other people. If we had more specific information about their relationship I might change my mind, but with the almost nonexistent information we have, I think the presumption that Cat was Jon's lifelong abuser is a really big leap.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree that we don't get a lot of direct information. Ned told her not to talk about Ashara, one specific thing, and she listened (and from Ned's perspective, he was so fierce about that because that information is life threatening.)
But in regards to Ned allowing abuse... Abuse isn't always direct. It isn't always blatant and obvious. It isn't always right in front of your face. It isn't always as easily dealt with as simply saying don't do it (speaking from experience here). Constant seemingly little things that you can't really call people out on because it doesn't look like much on the outside are still abusive to a child. Cat has never even called Jon by his name. Others in Winterfell don't treat Jon differently because he is their Lord's son, they don't have a reason to resent him. Cat resent him and takes it out on him passively. A child is not terrified of someone for no reason. Again to be clear, she does not have to be his mother. But she also does not have to mistreat him.
@@breezy3392 Well like I said, we can agree to disagree, and obviously my interpretation of the information we do get is different.
I agree with you, ignoring a child that lives with you could be considered abuse
@@Melissa-hd3jr I agree but we have to remember the context. Grooming a 12 year old girl into a marriage is also abuse , really, but that’s part of the setting so it dosent really make sense to say Ned and Cat were abusive for arranging a marriage for Sansa.
Cat definitely projects her frustrations with Ned onto Jon, because her duty to her husband was too strong for the love she shared between her and Ned.
THANK YOU! i always see people hating on catelyn, and i've never understood it. she could've been kinder to jon, but jon's very existence and presence in winterfell is dishonoring catelyn. she doesn't even mind the fact that ned was unfaithful to her - she's mainly worried that jon might pose a threat to her children or grandchildren's claims, which is an understandable fear to have for someone like catelyn who puts family first.
and i don't know why people hate on her so much for freeing jaime after finding out that bran and rickon were dead. she just found out that two of her children were murdered for god's sake. if i were in her position, i would want the rest of my children back as much as possible. it did allow tywin to start planning the red wedding, but catelyn never could've predicted that such brutality would happen since the culture of guest right is so sacred.
Yes exactly! Cat did things that were wrong but people act like she couldn't have been worse than she was, and the situation was far more complex than Cat just disliking her "stepson". Ultimately she is put in a situation that no one in her society is even put into, so it's so weird to me that the fandom projects the expectation that she should have parented him rather than acknowledging that in this scenario, the Lady of Winterfell treating an unrelated illegitimate child as her own would be seen as even more outrageously abnormal than the way Ned treated Jon in the first place. It's not something that would have been seen as expected of or even appropriate for her
Agreed on Jaime as well, I somewhat get the criticism of Cat but like... it drives me absolutely BONKERS that Cat is actually a pretty intelligent person who is forced to follow the lead of a bunch of people who are making terrible choices on their own, and then when things get awful to the point where Cat feels like she must do something to act everyone is like "she's so stupid/selfish/abusive/useless" when 99% of the fucking up was already done by other people and she just used that last 1% for a hail Mary in the hopes of getting out of these messes. LOL ultimately most of my defense of Catelyn can be boiled down to that as well, like nearly everything that fans hate her for is just her reacting to someone else's colossal fuckup, and the person who made the mess in the first place is rarely actually criticized for creating it.
ruclips.net/video/VgaNXPOD9wY/видео.html This and its sequels explain Why people hate Catelyn.
@@George-Hawthorne Is it Order of the Green Hand? If so don't even bother as they are obviously biased.
Imagine making an entire series to bash a fictional woman whose motivations are understandable.
I don't see anyone making video series to bash Cersei who, if she was Jon's stepmother, would have strangled him in the cradle and murder Ned to boot.
I think that is because many of these undercover psychopaths admire Cersei because she seems strong.
Spoiler: she's not.
@@gerardjagroo If you even watched the series then you'll know that they tackle other things beside her role as a stepmother.
Why would we need a series on why Cersei is a bitch that like having a series on why water is wet. Cersei is not a strong woman anymore that Catelyn is the paragon of virtue.
@@gerardjagroo Is it really bias if their argument is factually accurate?
I hadn't considered the effect of the tales of her uncle's exploit in the WOTNPK on forming her outlook before. I never hated her as a character after reading the books, but this has informed my perspective of her a bit along with other things you mentioned. Good video.
Thanks! And yeah, given that Jaime was desperate to hear Blackfish's war stories I'm guessing Cat heard them legit a million times, and I can't imagine them not having an effect on her paranoia RE Jon.
Also don’t forget that the river lands are notorious for two of the worst bastards in history. Aegor Rivers ‘Bittersteel’ and Brynden Rivers ‘Bloodraven’
@@HillsAliveYT Don't you think when she muses "Ned would do the boy no favors leaving Jon with her" while Ned was away not a tad bit insidious? She is pretty much admitting she would actively make his life worse without Ned there. Come onnnnn lol.
@@hez859That’s not what she’s admitting tho? If Ned ordered her to keep Jon at Winterfell (which he has the power to do) she’d probably go on ignoring him, at worst treating him coldly. So he’d be in Winterfell with no parental figure.
Catelyn made it clear what she wanted: to send Jon away to be fostered somewhere else. That’s a still a pretty cushy spot for a bastard to be in.
I agree with your assertion that Catelyn's position is horrifying, and that makes her (mis)treatment of Jon more nuanced, but your claim that there's no evidence of her being abusive to Jon, beyond the 'It should have been you.' comment doesn't really hold up, when you take into account the context provided by the rest of that same chapter.
1)Before even going into the room, Jon is scared of being alone in a room with Catelyn, and the narration explicitly states that not immediately leaving, when she tells him to, is the first time he's ever had the nerve not to flee her presence.
2)Jon is amazed, when she calls him, by his name, because in all his 14 years of life, she's only ever called him 'Bastard', before.
3)After he leaves, when he's saying goodbye to Rob, Rob realises that Jon was just alone in a room with his mother, and immediately checks to make sure she didn't do anything.
Since this is the only example we ever get of these two characters directly interacting with each other, we have to take this as the case study of what that usually looks like. Catelyn is, as you rightly pointed out, in a very bad place mentally, and lashing out at everyone, but Jon never regards any of her conduct towards him in this chapter unusual, except the fact that she briefly opens up to him, and that she calls him by his name, instead of an insult. *That* he takes notice of, the abusive language, and virulent rage in his presence just seems par for the course.
The two things that you cite as evidence that Catelyn wasn't abusive, are that a)Ned felt safer, leaving him in Winterfell, than in King's Landing, and b)she didn't poison the well with her other children, but I honestly think that that ignores the context of the passage you provided, where Catelyn says she could forgive Ned his bastards, as long as they were out of sight. The most obvious interpretation here, would be that she leaves Jon alone when she can, but if she has to be in the same room as him, no matter what context causes that to be the case, then 'it should have been you' is par for the course, for the type of shit she says to him. It's possible for someone to be abusive in their conduct, with someone, whenever they interact, because they simply can't help themselves, but also rationally accept the rest of the time, that it would do no good, to do them any harm, when you can think clearly. It's also worth noting that if Catelyn did ramp up mistreatment of Jon during Ned's absence, Jon had a massive support network in Winterfell he could've relied on, when he had no such support in King's Landing
I agree with you, that there's a difference between abusing a child, and simply refusing to take a maternal role with him, but all available evidence shows that Jon wasn't detached from Catelyn, he was fucking terrified of her.
Also, upon meeting Mya Stone, Catelyn "suddenly could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once.", which would suggest she either feels guilty about getting Jon sent to the wall, (which wouldn't make sense, if she was only doing that to protect her family, as you suggest), or about some other past mistreatment of him.
yea I agree with you
My one disagreement is that not taking on a maternal role for the child isn't abuse. Its straight up neglect, if you're a step mother, you're a mother, do your duty, it isnt the kid's fault. We constantly ask men to pay child support even if they were raped. Such a sick double standard.
I also believe that in the same chapter it is stated that Jon would have usually cried after such a conversation with catlyn
You're wrong. GRRM even says Cat was never abusive and that was a one time thing.
agree with much of what you have said. I do believe Cat was emotionally abusive of an innocent child. Many people in this comment section (even the author of the video) seem to think/imply that so long as there are no broken bones or evidence of physical injury, then no abuse took place. So, so wrong.
I’d argue the fact that cat and Jon spend an awful lot of time thinking about each other. I don’t think they hate each other it’s kinda a crap situation for all of them. Ned having to lie. Cat feeling betrayed and in danger, and Jon feeling like there’s no place for him. They were all stuck if anything blame Lyanna or rhygar. Saddest part we’ll probably never get a conclusion to any of this. Also I must point out that Jon was just a little boy who wanted a mother’s affection and to worry about what his kids may or may not do is on cat.
she wasn't always cruel to him either. i remember a passage from the books where she remembers a time when Jon got really sick as a child and she prayed to the Seven for him to get better
That was Show only
The only reason she even prayed for him to get better is because she had wished him dead, a literal baby and then when he did fall ill and was at risk of dying she thought it was because she wished it and felt kinda bad or was concerned about the karma it would bring upon her if he did die. She didn’t pray for him to get better out of real love and concern for him.
@@SacrificingNothing I think her feeling bad for the very human and realistic thoughts she had should be worth half damn at least though, even if it was only due to a coincidence.
Because she felt guilty for wishing him dead right before he got sick, and then she said she'd love him and have Ned give him a true born name if the gods would spare him. But he got better and she couldn't live a motherless child...
Catelyn: He will kill my children and usurp Winterfell!
Also Catelyn: Makes stupidest strategic and political decisions in the name of "protecting her children." Get said children killed, captured or on the run which gives Winterfell to Jon on a platter without him lifting a finger.
casually starting a civil war by kidnapping queen's brother with no plan or intimation to her allies is probably why that mess started although there were issues before that
You’re literally blaming Catelyn for everything lmao.
It was Robb’s idea to send Theon to the greyjoys. It was Ned’s idea to confront Cersei before talking to Robert. It was Robb’s hookup with Jeyne that caused the red wedding.
Lmfao
a line from the books you didn't mention is part of Jon's inner narration that when she stops him to tell him "it should have been you." she calls him "jon" for the first time. which means EITHER she only ever called him Snow, she called him Bastard (which i want to point out i do NOT believe that for a second. I don't believe that of her. OR that the rest of the family would put up with that, without comment. especially Ned.) Or she just tried to never address him at all. but that's impractical considering they were in the same house Jon's entire life up until then.
honestly i think it's most likely she went with Snow. A kid who's only crime was to be born into the same fucked up system that's screwing everyone but the Crown over, and he grew up constantly being addressed by the reminder he's different, he's not as loved, he's not as truly part of the family.
Like when you think about how much Ned loved him, and his siblings loved him, and how all the people in WInterfell were decent folks. the ONLY logical explanation for every bit of insecurity and self loathing Jon ever feels for being a bastard has to come from how Catelyn treated him.
And he did NOTHING to deserve it other then surviving childbirth.
she didn't have to treat him as a son. just treat him with enough decency that a scared 14 year old boy about to leave his home and family forever, IN LARGE PART BECAUSE SHE ARGUED AND DEMANDED HE BE KICKED OUT FOREVER, looking at his little brother who might die any moment for what Jon probably thought to be the last time, felt a rush of joy at being called Jon for once...... and be kicked while he's down for daring to hope she'd treat him well.
Well everyone's opinion is different, but this largely falls under the umbrella of what I was talking about in the video, which is that people take random guesses about Catelyn and extrapolate the worst possible version of her character based on something that doesn't really have evidence to back it up. And bastards are treated as less than throughout the entirety of Westerosi culture, literally everything in Jon's life would have been a constant reminder that he was a bastard, I cannot fathom how Catelyn could be the singular influence making him feel insecure or unloved when Westerosi society at large is prejudiced against bastards and even within the text that we see, many people outside of Catelyn treat Jon differently on account of his birth status.
Jon showed a lot of maturity when he when into Bran's sick room to say goodbye. And Cat, pained as she was, definitely showed very little.
@@HillsAliveYT "people take random guesses about Catelyn and extrapolate the worst possible version of her character based on something that doesn't really have evidence to back it up"
well, I don't know about anyone else, but I took the evidence from the book. It's true there is always a bit of wiggle room in how people interpret things, but I for one, wasn't plucking my view of Cat out of thin air - I didn't extrapolate the worst possible version of her just for $hits and giggles - to me it was all there on the page.
She calls him bastard in that very chapter, what are you talking about lol when Jon tries to comfort her saying it wasn't her fault she literally says "i don't need your absolution, bastard"
@@pixiewings21_9 exactly. She was awful to him end of story, its literally in the text. She only calls him by his name one time in his entire life lol
I absolutely love your channel! I just discovered it and I’m binging everything!
These are amazing points. The best defense of Cat I've seen so far were mostly "she's a normal woman" etc. which is true, but most didn't put as much work into understanding her perspective this much. Especially the destabilisation that Jon's existence poses (like, he even does that for the Targaryens later on) is important. Guess he couldn't escape that fate of growing up as an innocent little destabilisator baby after all.
My favorite point though is that yes, if Ned found Cat to be abusive he would have stopped her. She is a good person and just because she doesn't like a danger to her family and the whole land, doesn't change that. I guess the inner dialogue does change the perception of some readers because she probably acts less negative most of the time, than the inner dialogue works. And of course the fact that we feel sorry for Jon because of his motherless childhood. But it's not her fault for sure, and we shouldn't _have_ to blame someone, just because we feel sorry for someone else. There doesn't always need to be a tangible scapegoat.
And Ned is really a flawed character. It's cool how we start out seeing him as a kind of idolized person, but we slowly realize that he's not only seriously dumb at times, but also inconsiderate of people because he only cares about his code of honor and his relative moral purity.
(Sorry if this comment is sort of messy)
Yes totes, and it's actually incredibly ironic that Jon would have destabilized the hell out of the Targaryen dynasty if they actually hadn't been deposed, and then Ned in his infinite wisdom managed to come up with a cover story that actually made Jon destabilize the North instead.
And completely agreed about Ned. I like him as a character and think that he genuinely tries to be a good person, but he's a massive fuckup in a lot of ways and his family pays a terrible price for it. He has a very hard time seeing beyond himself and frankly his weird sort of benevolent misogyny is a factor in Lyanna, Catelyn, Sansa, and Arya going through some truly horrific shit, often in the name of Ned trying to "protect" them. However, I also think he's a far more interesting character when acknowledging these flaws rather than treating him like the infallible hero who sets the standard for all that is good and just in the world of ice and fire.
Neglect is abuse.
@@HillsAliveYT Finally someone else calls out Ned for his bullshit. (though to be fair, if Sansa and Cat had listened to him many things would have gone differently)
There is even an argument to be made that Ned did not love Jon. Ned did pretty much the bare minimum he could for Jon out of a sense of duty. He never helped Jon overcome his stunted social development, despite knowing how Cat treated him. We know for a fact that Jon lived in terror of Cat for most of his life by reading Jon's PoV's, and it affected him greatly.
It's also pretty safe to say that Ned was never going to tell Jon the truth if he didn't take the black on his own, which is MASSIVELY messed up, and sort of negates the purpose of keeping him alive. If he really did see Jon as the last part of his sister left alive, he would have told Jon once Jon was old enough to understand the danger. This was about Ned protecting Robert, Ned's whole life has been about him protecting Robert, especially Robert's feelings. (especially at the end of Robert's life. Ned knew the truth of Cersei's children, but chose to let his friend die in peace. The realm bled for this.)
I sort of get the impetus for the lie. From Catelyn's POV, they didn't really know each other when Jon was brought back, so I'm not sure Ned knew at the time that he could trust Cat. Benjen also wouldn't be an easy false parent, because he was in Winterfell for the duration of the war. I still think your assertion that Catelyn is not a wicked stepmother is soooo spot on though! To be honest, I think that Cat and Jon were just essentially strangers - it's clear she never really kept her own kids away from him even if she had misgivings.
actually she did. Jon and Sansa were close until Sansa learned what a bastard was. That's Cat and the Septa.
I think Jon thinking of her as a wicked stepmother is the only valid perspective to do so. A child in want of a mother figure being rejected by the only one available is definitely a sucky position to be in, but like you said, not her fault.
If Ned was a better liar, he probably wouldn't be the Ned Stark we're familiar with.
Eyo this is really random but I’ve binge watched a couple of your analyses in the background while I worked, and I gotta say I think you’re quite the narrator, your voice just has a good clarity and timbre structure to it and I could see you doing audio books or something.
Plus gotta appreciate another person enjoying the depth of this series
Just something to consider, this channel deserves more subs too, 1+ more now
He was without his brother when he got Jon. It would have been suspicious to Say the baby was from his brother without his brother there to confirm. To people would be unrealistic to se a lord so eager to bring back a baby just because a girl said is his brothers son.
Well what I think is interesting is, the story Ned gives is already incredibly suspicious. Like, people constantly note how out of character it is for Ned to have a bastard, which makes me wonder how many people have figured out who Jon really is, as it is not at all hard to run the math on a man who would never dishonor himself whose sister was abducted, raped, and mysteriously died just around the time that Jon showed up. Frankly, trying to pass off Jon as his own is about as suss as it is to pass him off as someone else's, and saying that he's someone else's at least avoids the succession problem.
@@HillsAliveYT Sure but I think most people will just go with Ned's story, it's believable enough especially with how much Jon looks like Ned (he has no Targaryen features at all too), as Catelyn herself states, even more so than his actual children with Catelyn. So it's easy enough for most people to just take his story at face value especially since lots of people wouldn't know all the details you mentioned, and most importantly had Ned tried to pass the kid off on someone else, no clue who since Brandon(dead for more than a year) and Benjen(14 and was at Winterfell for the entire war) would both be less believable than Ned as the father, Robert would've immediately questioned it way more than he likely did and that is not something Ned wants to risk.
You have a lot of great points. There's a few things to note. First, is that if Jon's possible children are a danger, so are Bran's and Rickon's and possible children could have as well, not to mention Bran and Rickon themselves. Yes, Cat didn't need to embrace Jon as a Mother, but to point out that part of the reason she is justified for that is that he was a danger to the succession of the North Leadership ignores that just as many full siblings or their blood line have killed kin in the name of power. If there was only Robb, Sansa, Arya and Jon, yeah it's a problem in the eyes of the South. In the end, having two additional male children takes the wind out of that fact, and it probably would have been better to raise Jon as a full siblind.
The another thing missing is that Cat's perception of Bastards is of the Andals, while because they are from the First Men's Culture, the Starks have raised their Bastards along their half siblings for many generations. Frankly, the only valid reason why Cat is reasonable in having a cold shoulder to Jon, and is not a wicked stepmother, is that he is not her child. All other points are easy to counter when view from the First Men's culture, which the North is.
Why would Catelyn believe that? Culturally in asoiaf bastards are looked down on and believed to be morally less than trueborn children. So would Catelyn suspect her youngest trueborn sons of usurping their beloved older brother or her husband’s bastard who was raised as a trueborn Stark, looks more like a Stark than any of her sons and is obviously adored by his father of jealousy coveting his half brother’s inheritance?
A lot of it is prejudice but their is historical context for her fear.
@@sugarpearl9781 The Greystarks are an example of what I am saying, that it does not matter how a Branch Family is connected to the Ruling Family. Not to mention that there are plenty of examples of full siblings killing eachother for power in and outside the setting, so it is a point against the justification that 'Jon's' progeny would be a threat, hence the reason to keep *Jon* at arms length. Basically, yeah there's a stigma batards in the South, but the North knows full well that a pack is better united that having elements that are flimsily connected.
Thank you for this fantastic defense of Catelyn's character. I always liked her despite her flaws, and don't understand the minority of fans who paint her as an incompetent villain. I literally had just started watching a video titled *_Why Catelyn Sucks_* and after less than 2 min, I immediately clicked on your video which RUclips was also suggested to me. I just don't have the emotional bandwidth to watch a 30-min video I know I'll strongly disagree with. Not at this late hour in my time zone, anyway. Although your essay focuses on Catelyn's relationship with Jon, it makes a compelling case for why the Catelyn haters are wrong.
While I agree with the political reasons you mentioned that made it impossible for Cat to treat Jon like a son, the least she could have done is not refer to him as 'bastard' every time she talked to him. The prose even mentions that when Jon was leaving for the wall was the first time ever she addresses him by his name (which was right before telling him that he should be dead, very charming).
Still her treatment of Jon alone is not what gets a bunch of fans to question if she is a good person or not. There are MULTIPLE reasons for this. Here are just two of them:
1) She manipulates Ned to go south when Ned had made up his mind to not accept the Hand of the King job. In fact, that argument that they have after getting Lyssa's letter (which she burns before even showing it to Ned) is a sample of a mini game of thrones being played between husband and wife and Ned loses by agreeing to go south (which is a great foreshadowing for Ned losing the GoT in the south as well).
REASON: she wanted Sansa to be queen and Jon to get out of the way without even considering Joffrey's character which Ned does consider
2) She leaves Bran as soon as she feels a sense of accomplishment for stopping the catspaw but this is the worst possible time to leave Winterfell. She goes and forces Ned once again to do something. This time, its to trust Littlefinger and to work with him which Ned had no intention of doing. She discusses family issues with Ned IN FRONT OF LITTLEFINGER AND VARYS and then taunts him in front of them by saying "you did not wed a fool, Eddard Stark" right after telling Ned that he can trust Littlefinger with his life because Littlefinger thinks of Cat as his sister; hilarious. Then she goes off and captures Tyrion without any proof then later on tells Karstarks that vengeance is not the key to happiness or something.
REASON: She is probably tired of the sexist traditions that expect her to just sit by and let her husband do all the work AND she let her biased emotions rule her judgement.
There are many other instances that point to her narcissism like her being completely oblivious to Lyssa's depression AND thinking that Jon and Lyssa had a happy marriage (she is your sister that you grew up with for god's sake, and you have no clue about how messed up she is or her love for Littlefinger). What we have here is one of the best, most subtly written characters ever. Plus the story needed her to be this way in order to speed things up and in order for us to not figure out Lyssa's involvement in her husband's death. She HAD to be a narcissist for the story to be good.
I really hated the way she treated Jon, even if he was a bastard, he didn't choose his parents. It's the complete opposite of how she is portrayed by littlefinger, as the caring girl who took someone in who was noone and had nothing (i don't recall his exact words). She could at least shown some basic human decency toward Jon and respect the fact that he is the half brother of her children.
everyone talks about jon as a bastard, is not only cat, all of his half brothers calls him a bastard. Tyrion calls him a bastard, Jon snow IS a bastard, is part of his character.
Everytime someone brings the "she abandoned her children" argument I laugh, like dude there is hundreds of people to attend them better than her that are like family to them, lewyn, hodor, etc winterfell is not more safe with her there, she literally thinks the wolfs were send by the gods to protect them, she chooses to go tell Ned herself because that's how urgent it is for her, and she also chooses to support his 14 year old son that is at war (don't know if you forgot that), and if that son looses basically all starks will be put to death anyway (don't know if you forgot thatx2).
Ned also thinks Robert is like a brother to him even tho they haven't seen each other in year, but its only hilarious when cat does it, mmmm.
A character being ignorant doesn't mean is a narcissist, every character has flaws but Cat flaws make her more of a villain on the eyes of the fans than literal murderers, psychopaths and like Cersei for some reason, she doesn't had to be a narcissits YOU want her to be a narciccist so you can hate her and not think too much into it, just admit that you didn't like that she insulted, i assume is your favorite character, jon snow and you are still bitter about it.
Catelyn is the more neutral character morally in the story, and every decision she makes makes perfect sense to her
@@valerieickstadt4044 if someone hates cat they are prob a jon fan, there is no reason for her to like jon, she also didn't choose to marry Ned, Jon didn't choose his parents, she didn't choose her husband.
she married because its her duty, it isn't her duty to respect her husband's bastard, its literally part of werterosi society to look down on bastards, shes not especifically meaner to him than anybody else.
@@bilis2866 it's not someone's job to help someone else in need. Doesn't mean you're a bad person if you don't do it, but it doesn't make you a good person either. And again, Jon is not responsible for the situation she is in. I didn't really mind until the scene with bran, after he "fell" off the tower and he wanted to say goodbye. I don't care what her situation is, Jon was a Kid/Teen, Bran was is brother and he just wanted to say goodbye. That's straight up evil. brought back some of my childhood trauma. My stepmom isn't particularly nice either and it's not nice to be reminded everyday that you're not really a part of the family......
By the way, Jon was Part of her family, he was Neds son, he was the children's half brother, so he in fact was a part of the family. Only cat is taking herself out of that equation. And for what? Selfish reasons, because Jon could be a threat to her children's/grandchildren's claim. What was that? Family. Honor. Duty. Seems like Family doesn't come first for her. because like explained, Jon was part of her Family. He was her childrens half-brother, her husband's son. Saying he's not part of her family is like saying ned's brother benjen is not part of her family because they are not blood related.
@@valerieickstadt4044 where did i say shes a good person bro, I acknowledge her flaws, doesn't make her evil tho, people can do bad things, and she was not in her best state of mind at that moment but you and the fandom don't take that into account, for a series were characters do horrible things that was very tame.
Shes not Jons mother, Jon is not her family, Family duty honor is for tullys and starks, Bejen is eddards brother, Jon is his bastard you guys love to forget that bastard is a taboo subject in westeros, it literally damages Neds status, the fact that Jon lives in the castle, has education and training is unique to him and he should be grateful, Cat didnt had any say on it.
Cat is a victim of her own conventional expectations, it is why she keeps guessing wrong about people and what they are up to. She assumes, for instance, that Jon is envious of his "brother"s status, when he really envies his talent and maybe the affection he (Robb) gets, or the fact that Robb has a living mother.
I don’t know how I found out about your channel but you’re awesome. Stop making me feel things when I felt another way !! Just kidding, good thoughts, never thought about it this way.
I thought this video was gonna defend the “it should have been you” moment and was ready to get upset. So the intro was a refreshing surprise. Anyway you’re right. I’ve barely heard of people saying that Catelyn was particularly awful to Jon but that seemed unlikely. I always figured Cat simply tried to remain distant from Jon and was probably rude to him whenever they had to interact. Which honestly isn’t that bad considering the norms of the time and the fact that Cat shouldn’t be obligated to live and care for him. And like you said, he was allowed to have be on good terms with his siblings.
I do understand why fans still dislike her, at least in the books since she shows more guilt over hating Jon in the show, since that was the only interaction we see of them. Between that and kidnapping Tyrion, another likeable character for a crime he didn’t commit, I honestly really disliked her in the beginning of the first book (although I got over that pretty quickly afterwards). But there’s a difference between hating a character and believing they’re more evil than they really are.
In the book, it was pretty clear that young Jon lived in constant fear of Catelyn, to the point where he almost didn't try to say to goodbye to Bran. That takes more than just acting coldly toward him.
Benjen was too young to pass as the father. At the very last he could‘ve told her he was Brandons but even that was dangerous to Catelyn, if not even more
hi i just wanna say thank u so much for making these videos. one of my main issues with being obsessed w game of thrones is how 90% of fans actively hate on female characters. you’re like the only youtuber i’ve seen that’s actually cared to understand these women instead of attacking them constantly
Excellent video, I'd never considered many of the points you put forth
I feel slightly differently when it comes to your assessment about contemporary thoughts and Catline's views on John. I find her thoughts are very appropriate to our time. Since we do not accept and form of cheating after marriage the norm (even thought it does happen all the time). Especially when it produces a child, but expected in her era to accept this about a man. I do see your point when it undermines her and her "Legitimate" childrens position with Edard treating John so well, and the danger it puts the family in. But her actions are petty and vindictive towards him in a way that is very indicative of our times.
Not to mention that Robb's will may have legitimized Jon and made Catelyn's fears a reality. It's why Catelyn was so against Robb's idea to legitimize Jon. We still don't know who Robb declared his heir in the will.
On AO3 itself，there are hundreds and hundreds of fanfictions that explored the stepson-stepmother dynamics between Jon and Catelyn。Some are venomously bashing Catelyn，some are much more forgiving，some are greyish & complicated，with sometimes another characters usually involved like Ned，Robb，Sansa，and Arya。
Brilliant analysis!
About bringing Jon to court if the R + L = J theory is true inthe books, bringing Ned would also be putting himself at risk with Robert (if somehow he managed to find out.)
Exactly as much as everyone me included sympathize with Jon's hardships and treatment he easily could be used as a pawn like he did in the show. Or better yet a Daeron II and Daemon Blackfyre situation could easily arise. Catelyn is cruel but the reason holds merit.
Ned thinks he is doing his duty, too. He thinks he has to protect the secret he has, or the secret Lyanna had - perhaps she made him swear he'd never admit she had a baby.
Can you imagine what Cat’s reaction to Jon’s real parentage would be lol it’s ok cat that’s a dragon not a wolf.
Jon was legitimized in A Storm of Swords by Robb, and alot of Lords saw it. I hope it comes back up
lol
This is such a great take, and true too.
As someone who has a father who always preferred son, being assigned female at birth myself, and a step-mother who felt threatened by my existence *especially* after she had born my father his longed for heir...
And as a parent now...
I get both sides. Yes, Jon would have benefitted from someone, even a chamberlain or a cook, or some other person considered low-class who would occaisonally spoil him! Could Ned have arranged for it without angering Cat? Without endagering Jon, or his family, more? Potentially yes, I think so. It would have raised new suspicions on who the mother was, so finding a young 12 y/o with a lot of younger siblings who was accounted for at the court when Ned supposedly fathered Jon, who then had the job of just taking care of a Baby... not nice to the girl, yes, but a solution. Not one a man who just became a father to his nephew, and to his own son, would have thought of. Cat would have thought of it maybe, if she knew, which she couldn't, because Ned had to keep the secret at this point. He didn't know how trustworthy his wife would be.
I understand, as a parent, how much you're willing to give to keep your kids safe. I saw myself do things I wouldn't have deemed possible before I became responsible for them. Being that protective, loving, caring as a mother, I believe Cat was subconsciously aware how hard Jon's life was. She did like children after all! She was fine with him being out of sight, out of mind. Never tried to harm him, never engaged in rumours, never made her own kids stay away from him. She didn't punish him for his existence, she just tried to not be hurt by seeing the proof of her husband's broken oath every day!
Yet, she could have tried to find someone, as stated above, who would provide some warmth to him. Maybe even showing some hidden sympathy. Never finding it in her to love him as the half-brother of her own children is understandable, but still nothing I can justify. I have my own half-brother to love, after all. My own mother, in all her faults, never treated him less than a full brother. He was always welcome with us - not that HIS mother would have allowed it. She hated me for my very existence. There was no cheating involved, I am a decade older. She just wasn't that big of a person. She did ask for forgiveness, however, for her own petty jealousy of the bond my father and I shared when I was younger. She didn't understand for some reason. Maybe she needed twenty years of my father picking my brother over me at any given chance, just because he is male, to understand how I drew the short stick in the end and felt pity?
I don't hate my brother, by the way. He is a very kind, polite young man. He never did anything to warrant a negative treatment! And it's not his fault to be treated differently. I remember how embarrassed he was as a teenager when our dad was praising him again for the smallest feats, while I did far better in my studies and gotten not a nice word. He was aware, yet he never managed to fight our dad for equality.
So in a sense, I get all standpoints in this story bead. GRRM has a very realistic writing style. He gave the view of a family: Messy, loud, sometimes at odds. And then there is the deep love and connection Jon and Arya share. Or how Jon and Rob trained together as younger boys. Jon caring for Bran's life. There's a lot of love between the siblings, they're just too young to verbalize it.
I guess I’ll start with a full disclosure, I don’t like Catlyn stark as a person and I may or may not get into those reasons later but just to clear the air after that particular statement I am not saying that no one isn’t allowed to like her just because I don’t, I do think her actions and reasoning invoke a certain amount of sympathy and while I think that opinion is valid I don’t agree with it under the assumptions that GRRM writes complex characters with very human emotions and just as human mental reinforcements to justify their own actions.
Damn this is gonna be a long post.
To shorten it I’ll just tackle some popsicles arguments.
-Cersei is a bad base to judge morality, her saying Catlyn is a mouse for not killing a child is not portrayed as the “normal” or healthy reaction even in Westeros.
-cat’s fears about Jon are founded on nothing but stereotypes and a bad reading of history, the starks are not the targaryans, there are not many of them left so not only wouldn’t Jon betray Robb or kill his children nor do they have the luxury of being picky with only two starks left that can inherit and one to the enemy, they could give it to the valemen but no one’s gonna follow the valemen happily while on the other hand you have Jon who has all the symbols of a stark and a Val steel sword.
- this one kinda makes me angry actually, Catlyn was abusive. Not physically, she never hit him but mentally. Idk if you know this but Jon is a MAN in a patriarchAl society and he run in FEAR of her. Martin can say whatever he wants but the text is text and that to me implies abuse of some kind and just hand waving it away is Honestly cause she never HIT him is kinda infuriating.
- inside you there are two wolves one leads to forgiveness and getting over it the other one alienate a known friend to your children who has never ever, literally never done anything to harm them. Ned did what he had to do you the audience know that stop staning for your queen so hard you excuse the worse of her personality. Just a reminder it’s been HAMMERED home that cat would murder a harmless fool if she thought it’d save her children so I do not buy for a moment that “oh if he just told her she’d love him like a son” no. No she wouldn’t, she’d see him as a threat to her own progeny and would either give him up herself cause she’d fear Roberts wrath or do her best to make Ned give him up which is most def against what he promised his sister.
-a fun argument is that people who don’t like cat are sexist. Some are, I’m sure a few think I am. But this isn’t about cat. It’s about you. Yes you reading this. The one making up excuses for terrible behavior, justifying it at every turn and very adamant that all of this is out of poor Catlyn starks control. It’s not, she didn’t need to, and yes she was wrong at every assumption, resolute In her conviction that she was wrong about the black blooded bastard.
By the by I’m not talking about the show the show broke it’s back trying to make Catlyn more sympathetic
She's a Tully. Tully Women are all crazy. Lady Stoneheart was always there, just below the surface, watching, hating, judging. Oh, she loved Robb. She tolerated Bran because he was a boy. She barely even spoke to the girls, and I think she completely forgot poor Rickon. She was stubborn, reckless, vindictive, a really bad judge of character, and she hated the North. As soon as she got thee chance, she left, leaving Bran in a coma and the other one, well, that's anyone's guess.
completely disagree with this assessment. i will never forgive cat for her treatment of jon, but she *adored* bran and sansa. she called bran her "special boy", she ate and slept next to his bed while he was unconscious. jon even noted that she barely slept at all, just spending her days praying and crying next to his bed. she didn't even go to the toilet, having the bedchamber pots brought in just so she won't have to leave bran alone.
she always praised and loved sansa. her relationship with arya was a bit more complicated - i think because she looked more like a stark, and cat had a bit of a hard time with accepting all the "wild" and "unlady-like" traits of arya, not realising how similar she was to her in character. but ultimately, she loved her dearly.
cat did many mistakes as a mother (and as a stepmother especially), but you can never accuse her of not loving *her* children.
I always feel like a lot of people take what Cat said and was feeling in an extreme moment of emotional turmoil and somehow extrapolate that as her entire being, which is so weird because I can guarantee everyone in their lives has had bad thoughts or said something bad when they’re extremely upset no one would say that should define their whole being?
Also I find that alot of people use modern lenses to look at Cat and always being like “well I would never do that to an innocent kid” yet if they had been brought up in her life and been in her position, many of them likely wouldn’t have done any better and would still be called “abusive” by their modern judging standards.
Yes exactly, like there are plenty of people I've known for a very long time and I'm quite sure if you picked out the worst thing I ever said to them in the 15 years I knew them, it would probably be nearly as bad as this, in some instances probably shittier, but I certainly wouldn't say that's an accurate summation of me as a person or how I feel about somebody.
And that's my exact problem with it as well, people look at her from a modern POV instead of recognizing that it is a radically different situation, and one that their society doesn't really even account for. Yes, men have bastards, but they're never put in the same position as Jon, ergo there is no "societally appropriate" way for Cat to handle what's going on, and that's obviously putting aside the fact that, at least prior to like two weeks ago, contemporary women have the choice as to whether or not they want to be put in a parental position over a child. Cat didn't choose who she married, and she didn't get any options when it came to Jon either. If she were a modern stepmom who chose to marry someone with kids and had the choice to leave if she wanted, then her behavior would be shitty, but ultimately you can't force someone into a situation they don't want and have no choice in and then say they're a monster for not reacting the way you think they should.
I’d say that Ned isn’t wrong in not telling Kat the truth. It only helps his story. If she goes around giving dirty looks at Jon. Than everyone is constantly reminded of Ned’s transgressions. It was made clear that Ned’s word was solid. He wouldn’t tell anyone of Jons true name or parents or it would be a war. Ned knew that killing kids was on the table as an option. Also, besides the honor behind keeping his word about Jon. Telling kat or anyone for that matter. Risked Jon and the lives of all his kids. From the king and from opportunist like the Boltons. Keeping to the story made it so people like Jamie could mockingly say things like “honorable Ned” making fun of him making a bastard. This kept eyes off of Jon and on Ned. That was the plan the whole time. Yes Ned wasn’t good at lieing and playing the “games” of court. But no one ever said he wasn’t wise to the goings on of the world or how hard it could be. He wouldn’t demand Kat treat him better. That would only hurt his story.
Kat is a great character. She shows that she is “street smart” in her own ways. She also shows that the north rubbed off on her in others and helped start a war.
One other thing to remember is that Ned is built up to be a morally superior character for the readers and audience’s sake. So it can hurt that much more to show that no one is safe in the game of thrones. It’s not that Ned is stupid. The same reason that he does everything to help Jon is what gets him killed. He made decisions to try and save the lives of the Lannister kids. Knowing what Rob would have done to his nephew. Knowing what he would have done to the kids Rob had raised as his own. I think some give Kat a bad rap, just aren’t reading deep enough. But the same goes for Ned. You can’t just say he made mistakes. What Ned does and won’t do is what sets the tone for EVERYTHING in the first half of the books.
I like your video. I may not agree with all of it. But it’s thousands of pages of crazy story. We can’t agree on everything.
Ned didn’t tell Cat because he couldn’t trust her to keep the secret if her children were threatened. He knew that telling anyone was good as killing his sister’s child. A secret told is a secret growed.
Though I have sympathy for Cat… the fact is she mistreated a child. A child… for years. Ah nope. Direct your anger and frustration at to your husband
Excellent video! I’m kind of surprised that people think of Cat as a wicked stepmother since the books and the show always depicted her as being more complex than that. But given how early into the story she makes her remark to Jon, I guess I can see it leaving a bad first impression of their overall relationship.
As for Ned’s cover story, I don’t know if I can think of a better one. Claiming Jon to be Benjin’s son could be harmful to Benjin since he’s a member of the Night’s Watch and is forbidden from having children. Maybe Ned could have pretended to take Jon in as an unrelated ward like he did with Theon?
17:50 - passing him off as Benjen's son would be nearly impossible tho, as Benjen was at Winterfell for the whole war. If Ned brought home a boy from campaign, he would be hard pressed to explain how he ended up with Benjen's son when Benjen had been safe in Winterfell the whole time unless he convinced the entire court in Winterfell that "yes this babe has been here the whole time, no it didn't just arrive with me". Especially since when Ned came back up from Dorne with Lyanna's bones, he probably stopped off at Court in King's Landing to tell Robert of her death, and likely would have had Jon with him at that point already, meaning that there's no way he could've claimed Jon as Benjen's son.
I do of course agree that this was the smartest option, and would even allow for Jon to potentially not have to go to the Watch, as so long as Benjen lived, any unruly lord would have a hard time pressing for Jon's claim while Benjen lived, but of course Jon going to the Wall would still have likely been the best option for the stability of Robb's succession and rule; the issue of course is the fact that it's not workable.
Seeing a recurring theme in the AGOT fandom blaming the woman having feelings about the situation rather than the man causing the situation. Funny, that!
Insightful analysis. Well done. 🙂
Thanks!
Eh I would disagree sure as you said Cat did something unforgivable with lashing out at Jon. But considering how Ned and Jon both react to Cat it’s very obvious that Cat never was kind to Jon. It’s one thing to not acknowledge a child and show them love, but since Sansa thinks so lowly of Jon and avoids him (something she likely learned from her mother) and Jon is scared to enter Bran’s room knowing Catelyn is in there I feel like everything in the text implies that Catelyn was probably very verbally abusive to Jon throughout his life.
Okay but this also requires that Ned would watch Catelyn abuse Jon and not tell her to stop, which is weird. And unless I'm forgetting, Sansa doesn't seem to avoid Jon or think lowly of him, that's also a fan interpretation that doesn't have much actual evidence in canon.
@@HillsAliveYT Sansa in winterfell always addresses Jon as half brother. It isn’t until she’s continuously abused at Kings Landing that she starts thinking of him as her brother like her other siblings. So clearly she didn’t think as high of him back then. We also know Catelyn did treat Jon badly because not only did Ned already know Catelyn wouldn’t allow Jon to stay there while Ned was away, but Jon is literally terrified to say goodbye to Bran because Catelyn is in the room with him. Why would Jon be scared if Catelyn hadn’t verbally abused him in the past? Also why would Jon hate being a bastard so much if it wasn’t for Catelyn. Most of the winterfell children treated Jon no different than their other siblings. Robb and Jon were very close. So were Jon and Arya, and Jon and Bran. It’s even said that Ned treated Jon very well despite him being a bastard. Jon’s resentment for bastardry has to come from somewhere and as far as we know Catelyn is the only person there who treated Jon poorly. She’s even the one that requests for him to sit away from the royal family when Robert arrives to Winterfell. Even the Blackfish is aware of how much Catelyn hates Jon Snow. I feel like to ignore all the evidence of Catelyn’s hatred for Jon is being disingenuous towards the character. I think liking Catelyn is fine, but like almost every character in the series she has human flaws.
@@Jaylenhawk Right but I mean... Jon is her half-brother. And all of the other kids also acknowledge that he's a bastard, so maybe Jon and Sansa just don't have a lot in common and thus didn't have as strong of a relationship? Like, Arya and Robb both acknowledge and at times directly state that Jon is a bastard, and obviously they adore him so I think people read a great deal into Sansa in particular saying he's her half brother. As for instances like when Robert and Cersei came to visit and Jon was seated somewhere else, Ned literally says in her conversation with Cat that if he takes Jon to King's Landing people would ostracize him and he'd have no place, which seems to indicate Cat was following social protocol rules, not just excluding Jon to be an asshole. And the notion that Catelyn is entirely responsible for Jon being upset about his bastard status when the entire world treats bastards poorly is a bit of a jump. But we can agree to disagree!
@@HillsAliveYT The Martels doesn't treat their bastards like shit nor did the Tyrell to their broken son or gay son.
It was choice for tywin to treat Tyrion like shit, it's also Catelyn choice to treat Jon like shit.
@@toliniewilliams6562 I feel like you are disingenuously ignoring that the Martells do not ascribe to traditional Westerosi customs and the Tyrells are also quite different from traditional behavior. You’ve named exceptions to try to prove against the common rule. It doesn’t make sense. Westerosi society is against bastards in general, if anything Tywin keeping Tyrion and Cat enduring Jon’s presence are actually odd when placed against the backdrop of how most Westerosi families treat situations like this.
It's not exactly sensible to use the stark siblings love for Jon as proof that catlyn didn't attempt to foster hatred between them. We see in the story several children that deviate from what their parents want for them. Also I find it odd that you believe people shouldn't look at this from a modern lends when you yourself do so at different points
9:54 Ned says he doesn’t take Jon to KL because he’ld be shunned but that is not the true reason. He fears that someone somehow will see Jon’s true line in him.
Jon Snow's mother was the one woman Ned Stark was willing to appear dishonorable for.
Love your channel!! Well done.
Thanks so much! 💙
The real option Ned should have done was to tell Cat that Jon wasn't really his son but his sister's and that he's protecting him. Maybe wait a few years so it doesn't look odd how cold to Jon she is but let her know so that she knew she wasn't actually in a dangerous position she's the shield for Jon keeping everyone none the wiser. Also everyone knew where Jon came from as in the south he told Robert before he headed up to winterfell with the boy and his sister and that benjen was in Winterfell the entire time would make that a difficult proposition to pull off, but Cat definitely wasn't in the wrong about how she viewed Jon she just never had the facts and that's on Ned
Love your analysis 👌 new sub
She was still the wicked stepmother we just have a more complex wicked stepmother where we see her motivations and the predicament she was in. She treated Jon poorly no matter how you slice it. We just get to see her reasoning now. I just dont think it fully justified the situation. I don't think she should be expected to play a maternal role to a child she thinks is a result of cheating but her treatment wasn't ok.
She was neither wicked nor his stepmother. She had literally no relationship to him. She ignored Jon at worst, which is miles above how every single bastard but Edric Storm is treated. When did she prevent Jon from receiving food, the best education in the country, warm relationships with her kids? That Jon himself never once thinks her treatment is unusual and vicious says volumes, and that Ned doesn't is even more so. Logically, why would he tolerate "abuse" of Jon if that's what it was?
You're judging a womanly harshly for not gleefully embracing the product of her husband's affair and I somehow doubt you would do the same of this happened to you. Or would ever treat a man displeased with his wife's cheating that way. I certainly don't see you blaming Ned for causing this pain on both parties.
Women do not owe mothering to fans' male faves. Women do not owe meek submission to blatant disrespect they receive from men. Let's leave that kind of misogyny in the past where it belongs.
@@jostockton. Im talking about the wicked stepmother as an archetype not a literal role. She didn't owe him mothering. I never said she owed him mothering. The basic kindness you'd treat any stranger with would do just fine. Also, as established in the video she didn't really have a say in the quality of treatment and care he got. She couldn't stop him and im sure given an educated and well taken care of Jon is a threat to her kids claims, she would have. She also didn't owe him "it should have been you". The responsibility for all of this is largely with Ned. That doesn't mean her actions were OK. Also emotional abuse is abuse even if it's less overtly abuse than what other people get.
Yeah, totally agree with you. I never saw Catelyn as a bad stepmother to Jon in the books or as vindictive or hateful as they portrayed her in the tv show. Sure, she wasn't happy and peaches with Jon, but she never was hateful. And in the only book scene where she was not nice towards Jon, it is totally understandable despite not being an okay thing to do to Jon, but there's more context and a reason why she did it unlike in the tv show, where they straight up made her just hateful towards him because yes.
And in the books, the next time Jon is mentioned and she speaks of him in a not nice light, is when Rob wanted to legitimize Jon as the new heir of Winterfell because that meant that Sansa, the one thought to be the only other Stark alive, would be kicked out of her rightful inheritance in the eyes of Cat. So, it's totally understandable why she rejects Jon and hates the idea, but Robb is in favor of it. Besides that, Cat actually recognizes Jon as a person and never wishes him any ill. She just hates more the situation that she was put on by Ned. And that's it. Exactly what you said, which is due to Ned's poor decisions. That's why I always liked Catelyn because she was more savvy than Ned in many things (even though I like Ned a lot too). Especially politically. Heck, I would even say that she's one of the most political savvy people in the books, despite her flaws that lead her to make not the best choices at times despite being understandable.
Totes, and I think a lot of people overlook the fact that Sansa's inheritance is why the Lannisters value her, and these are the people who hand-waved the violent rape and murder of Elia Martell and her children, ergo Cat is very rightfully concerned that the alteration of inheritance will lead to Sansa being further abused and potentially killed if it makes the Lannisters believe that she's no longer of use to them.
@@HillsAliveYT Maybe, however, that has nothing to do with her behaviour towards an innocent child. And frankly there is no justification for that. Not for any mother. Being a parent and an adult, you know how children feel, you know that they desperately need and seek love. It’s absolutely irrelevant if it’s your own or not. And there is a lot of cruelty in withholding that from any child, especially when it grows up in your own household.
I have to disagree with the Sansa part. If it was really about Sansa’s right why recommend some distant vale lording .
IMO that part was just bias against Jon
I'm going to disagree with you. Cat thinks highly of herself, and doesn't see any of her treatment of Jon as wrong, but we know from Jon's PoV that he lives in absolute terror of Cat. Even Robb knows that Cat treats Jon like shit, but Jon lies before he leaves so that Robb won't think less of his mother.
@alberto velasco happy and peaches? She has never called him by his real name ever. Meaning she probably just called him "bastard" ...she says his name once and it was to wish he fell from the window lol. she also says Ned would do Jon no favors leaving her with him. This is before the journey to King's landing. She was already knowing in her mind with Ned not around he wouldn't be there to protect him.
The biggest mistake Ned makes is going South, where his secrets are never going to be safe the way they are in the country.
I don't believe Jon could have been passed off as Benjen's. Benjen would have been only 12 or 13 at the time of Jon's birth, and thousands of miles away in Winterfell. Otherwise pretty solid reasoning.
I never even thought of this. Ned is actually very ignorant and too accustomed to power... and cat,though cruel, is not entirely wrong.... Jon is the one that suffers the most though.
And interestingly, a lot of Ned's ignorance is willful. Much like Sansa, he is actually pretty perceptive about the realities of situations but if it's something he doesn't want to confront he essentially lies to himself about it, which is ultimately a huge contributing factor to his death.
Oh noooooo. No. Nope. Just…no. While I appreciate the perspective of this channel and it’s commentary, we can’t blame Catelyn’s cruelty on the patriarchy, I’m sorry. It’s not a woman’s job to raise children that aren’t hers, true, but Cat went out of her way to be cruel to a child that did nothing to her. Let’s not brush aside her horrid comment to him as something to “get out of the way.” Telling a 14 year old that you wish he was dying is hatred, simple and plain. And it wasn’t some outburst in reaction to Maester Luwin or the wolves. Jon was trying, as respectfully as possible, to say goodbye to his comatose brother. He wasn’t even there to engage with Cat. He was *leaving the room* and she *called him back just to tell him she wished it was him.* That is the kind of thing that fucks someone up for life. That is the kind of thing that leads to some people taking their life. That’s abuse. Imagine living 14 years with someone openly despising you for literally just existing. Catelyn has many layers but there’s no apologetics allowed on this one.
Ned couldn't have claimed Benjen as Jon's father because in the time it would have took an incredible leap of logic. Claiming Brandon as Jon's father would have hurt Cat but is well within Brandon's character and if she forgave Ned for being Jon's "father" then she would have accepted that Ned is just raising his nephew. Her house words are family duty honor. In that order. She might have been angry with Brandon but if she forgave Ned for father a bastard, then I doubt that Brandon wouldn't have recived the same. He's dead so no point holding a grudge.
“Is not abuse for a woman to not parents a child that isn’t hers” is true what is abuse is isolating, blaming and descriminating a poor child for something he is not to blame for he wasn’t ask to be brought to winterfell you some valid points but forget the most important one
You make some good points, but I think you’re overlooking some other evidence from the books. When Jon leaves Bran’s room in Book 1, he is approached by Robb and Robb notices Jon was upset. He assumed Jon was upset because of his mother (Cat). He probably wouldn’t have assumed that unless it was common for Cat to be abusive to Jon. Also, when Jaime meets the Blackfish in Book 4, Blackfish said that Cat would commonly tell him that Jon shouldn’t be trusted (ruining a child’s reputation is abuse). There is a lot more suggesting that Cat was cruel to Jon and hated him.
When Jon killed ollie in the show everyone cheered his death, but when it comes to Jon yall become child protective services lol is insane.
Jon snow is the most privileged bastard in all Westeros, his childhood was the best a bastard could dream of, Catelyn didn't treat him any more badly than anyone else treats a bastard, bastards don't get to live in the castle bro, no education or training either lmao. and shes not the mother, cant imagine a lady allowing a bastard running around the caslte but Catelyn did.
there is this believe in Westerosi society that bastards are born out of lust, so they are untrustwordy, sexually wild, wicked and stuff like that, of course she doesn't trust him, shes very superstitious (important part of her character btw) and for how Ned treast him (a lord doesn't treat his bastards like that) she prob fears he would legitimize him and she has no say in it, a direct threat to her purpose in that society and her bloodline.
Cat has every right to be angry but you can't put the blame on Ned too. If Ned cracks and spilled the truth about Jon to Cat, the info could spread slowly and eventually reach King Robert's ear which will lead to another war. Winterfell will fall and the other lords will question the legitimacy of Robert's war which will lead to more chaos.
there are succession crises even between two trueborn sons, there is no reason to think that a son born and raised as a bastard would create any greater crisis than what already would naturally exist when it comes to succession.
Catelyn Stark's actions towards Jon were unpleasant. She was not kind to him. She treated him differently to her own children. She was however not abusive in any way I truly understand. She was basically not a mother to a child who was not her son, and who, sadly in the considerably disgusting world of Westeros, is a real and tangible threat to her children whether Jon wants them to be or not. Jon being a good person, but his children being ambitious brats, is not an unusual event in this world.
The only times we really see her being actively cruel to Jon is when she is massively grief stricken after Bran's accident.
I would say she probably, morally, should have been kinder to Jon in a moral sense. But then again I also think the whole obsession the highborn have with getting their descendants onto the throne is .... well incomprehensible to me to the point where I have no idea WHY people want them to.
This is interesting, because i found it understandable that Catelyn didnt love Jon and saw him as a legitimate threat to her own children, which is valid given that she's a feudal lady. But at the same time i was always quick to apply a more modern understanding of a step-mother/step-son relationship and would have therefore considered her relationship with Jon as abusive, considering the neglectful attitude she has toward him. I do think that neglect is inherent abusive to a child, especially since Jon already has no mother and has questioning his place at as a Stark despite it being so secure thanks to Ned. Therefore i still see Catelyn's behavior as abusive despite how understandable it is. Idk. Its really messy because of of how abusive feudal society needs people to be in order to function. Blah blah blah. We live in a society and it sucks
Except it's literally impossible to neglect a child that isn't yours. If Jon is "neglected" (and I'm baffled how a child that received regular food, clothes, an excellent education, and friendships is neglected?), that was 100% Ned's choice to neglect him.
@@jostockton. neglect can also be emotional, and whether Catelyn likes it or not, she's an adult in Jon's life and beyond that, his stepmother. If any real world adult treated a child in their life with the lack of care Catelyn showed Jon, we'd call it neglect or abuse right away, considering the standard we hold today's adults to in regards to dealing with children. Emotional absense or bitterness from an adult to kid is inherently a form of neglect or downright abuse in some scenarios, and Catelyn clearly states how she feels about Jon in that POV chapter mentioned in the video. The only reason im sympathetic to Catelyn still is the situation she's in. Though i typically dont care much about the plight of the rich and powerful, the family situation at Winterfell is kinda fucked up. Also.... you can totally neglect/abuse a child that isnt yours. And its never another person's fault that you ended up neglecting or abusing a kid. Its just a "dont be a dick" type of thing.
There are feudal examples of spouses and even mistresses getting along and working together. Some of them have even treated their spouses bastards well.