The TV show seemed to revel in the violence (including Arya’s) for its value in titillating the audience. But in the books, most acts of violence cause the reader to see the perpetrators as damaged or traumatized in their own way. For the Hound and Arya violence is a hollow pursuit that brings no satisfaction, but they are compelled to continue nonetheless. Lady Stoneheart’s reunification with Arya will be as a dark mirror showing the emptiness of revenge. I agree that Arya mercy-killing the remnant of her mother is a proper way to pivot her character away from budding psychopath towards a redemptive defender.
Yeah completely agreed, I feel like they entirely missed the fact that even if the books are incredibly violent, over the top violence is universally a bad sign for the person engaging in it. GoT basically never acknowledged that in Arya's case, or in the case of hardly any of the other characters. Frankly, I'm quite sure if they had even implied the fact that killing people with exceptional brutality (even if the characters think that the people deserve it) wasn't super badass and was instead actually pretty fucked up, the reaction to the show's ending wouldn't have been nearly as shocked or outraged as it was.
Totally agree. I started to sour on the show when I realized that nudity and violence were both filmed with an identical, almost pornographic gaze. Fight scenes regularly ground to a halt so that the camera could get a good long close-up of some gory spectacle before resuming the fight, the same way it titillated with boobs and sex. Violence and sex (and their intermingling) were merely moments for the showrunners to say "bro isn't this awesome! See how cool and edgy we are?" rather than opportunities to explore themes or give insight into our characters and their journeys. After that I kind of knew that the showrunners did not and never would have the maturity or subtlety to adapt this story the way it deserves.
Yeah, someone pointed out that the Hound and Brienne fight only happened in the show. It's more likely that the nameless Gravedigger is the Hound, finally able to put his history of violence behind and live a peaceful life through others' deaths. It means we won't get Clegane-Bowl, but it would be a better resolution for Sandor Clegane and him finding a path away from his trauma.
What make you think Arya is getting a redemption archive. Thematically it's not happening. The good characters become bad guys, and the bad characters become good guys. Areas a sociopath. Dany burns kings landing. John snow is the night king. Jamie's a good guy and he dies in his next chapter
Arya will be blind and nameless in the books. You think George R.R. will abandon such a philosophically deep and emotionally challenging storyline as the faceless men, the same way the show did? Nope. Having her regain her eye-sight, identity, go home to kill every Frey, and then stab the Night King, single handedly destroying the biggest threat in the entire story, is pure, unadulterated, shitty GoT showrunner fan-service. It won't go down even close to like this in the books.
But then it would have been more than one scene to devote to a major plot development, and they couldnt be bothered with that in their mad dash to end the show
Wyman Manderly is widely believed to have baked a bunch of Freys in pies and eaten them, yet readers still see him as ultimately a good guy in the story.
There was one of those after show interviews with Dan and David where they outright say Arya always makes the "coolest" choice. It was said in comparison to Sansa. And I was like, "oh my god they don't understand these characters at all." Arya is also responsible for Stoneheart. She asked Beric to reunite her with her mother and he gave his word "on his honor as a knight". Which I always assumed, since Beric is one of the few that his word means something, is why he gave his life for Catelyn. The fact that the show kept Beric was also odd. I was also told by someone who works at GRRM's publishing house that the show leaving out Stoneheart was why he stopped writing episodes. And that he wasn't on speaking terms with D&D in the final seasons.
Is stoneheart that integral to the story that when it was clear she wasn't in the show, george dropped out eventually? there's definitely something more there
@@ig1441 I talked with him in Spain a few years back and he was in bad terms with D&D by season 6 I think it was. He doesn't really like the derive of the show after the red wedding. He told me that everything they did in pre production was focused on that twist and after that it started to get rushed and weird. He doesn't talked in deep about it, but there's something more clearly.
@@jamie_d0g978 damn thats such a shame. season 4 is one of the highlights of the show for me i can’t imagine what the turnout might’ve been if they kept her character in
There's also their refusal to make Tyrion's psyche to deteriorate after Jaime's reveal about Tyrion 's first wife not being a prostitute. Is like they know Tyrion is a fan favorite and therefore cannot stand portraying him in a negative light.
@@ig1441 according to the story we already have, Stoneheart is at least going to heavily affect Jaime and Brienne's stories with Jaime essentially riding to his death at Stoneheart's hands. It's also believed she will play a big role in Arya and Sansa's stories, especially with whatever happens next with the Freys and may also be involved with some of the Northern politics later down the line although I doubt it. Rn Stoneheart to me and the story is only there to finish Jaime's character arc.
You are right. Arya's unchecked PTSD and the damage to the mind of an impressionable pre-teen / teen being translated into bad-assery is in poor taste.. Your videos are very good.
Right now Arya's sense of justice is so warped that she killed that boy who was deserting the watch in Bravos - I forget his name right now. That murder is significant. It's not someone who has harmed her, it's not someone who has harmed ANYONE she knows of. She thinks of it as justice, as something Ned would have done, because it's a deserter from the Night's Watch, but for her it represents a slip past killing people on her list, who she might have some justification for killing, versus taking on this responsibility which wouldn't even be hers. It's the clearest demonstration that GRRM doesn't think what she is doing is "Badassery"
I think it's likely that Arya knows that Jon is Lord Commander (though I can't remember if this is confirmed or implied in the books) and that Dareon is betraying Jon, not just doing the deed her father would have done if he caught Dareon.
This was in the books and not the show, correct? The only person of significance I remember her killing on the show in Braavos (besides The Waif) was Meryn Trant.
@@piercehubbard4086 Season 5 onward diverges so far from the books it's crazy. It was only after I read the books during the covid lockdown that I realised how much had been cut. The Night's Watch deserter Arya killed in Braavos was named Dareon. He wasn't included in the show. And in the books Ser Meryn Trant and Mace tyrell never sets foot in Braavos to negotiate with the Iron Bank. In the books it's Ser Harys Swyft and Raff the Sweetling (he is on Arya's list for killing Lommy Greenhands) who go instead
@@piercehubbard4086 I don't remember if Samwell traveled with anyone besides Aemon and Gilly in the show. In the books, Jon sends Dareon with them to recruit and also switches Gilly's baby with Mance's baby (to protect Mance's baby from Melisandre). Arya has her sight taken in Braavos (for the same reasons as in the show), but she is able to see because she can warg into a cat. All the Stark kids can warg in the books, and Rickon was probably the first to figure it out.
@@ashtton_tapiwa - You know I’ve heard that after that GRRM just stopped writing the next ASOIAF book because he was really upset with what D&D were doing to it. I don’t know how someone could prove that unless he or his publisher confirmed it on the record. Anyways, seems totally logical to me! I really would like to see him finish the series how he wanted, not that rushed season 8 crap. I’m sure his ending would be much more imaginative, and interesting. Leaving you actually somewhat satisfied. Right now we have a void in our hearts left by the “ending” of the show.
I want Lady Stoneheart to meet Sansa. especially since Sansa is now Alayne and posing as Littlefinger's bastard daughter. I am so hoping they see each other.
I honestly don't think THAT much had changed in Catlyn to Lady Stoneheart. I think we are seeing an exceptionally pissed off and unforgiving Catlyn. We know how Catlyn can hold an irrational grudge against someone, especially someone who has not directly or purposely hurt her. I think Lady Stonehert is a Catlyn who, believing her family is dead, just doesn't care and is blood thirsty and acting on her baser instincts.
I wonder even if she found out the truth about Jon, would that change her view of him. R would she find a way to blame him for their current misfortunes?
I was always really frustrated with people that said Danaerys was crazy and violent but didn't see it with Arya because she was framed as justified and cool.
Same. Arya recreating the Red Wedding killed any sympathy I had for her. Worse than the Red Wedding, she got them to commit cannibalism, something described in the World of Ice and Fire as abhorrent
@@MegaKnight2012 arya did in not looking to become powerful but simply as a revenge of the crimes the Frey, dany does it for power + she killed 200k innocent civilians lol
@@sansonefabio8177 So why they did it was what made it bad, not what they did? Dany was bad because she did it for revenge and power but because Arya only did for revenge, that's okay?
Totally agree. The entirety of Arya’s storyline is obviously very disturbing. I think her time in the house of black and white is meant to teach her a different view of the idea of death and killing. Where she has seen it up until that point to be bad or vengeful, her time becoming a faceless assassin will teach her that death can be a mercy (tying in the idea of the mother-depicted as merciful.) Also showing the most cut and dry meaning of the idea that all men must die.
I think Lady Stoneheart will play more of a role with Arya than helping her understand the distinction between justice and vengeance. Stoneheart will be a sorrowful example to Arya how being resurrected by R’hllor can pervert the people she loves for certain ends. Daenerys may not be the only Targaryen she kills when King’s Landing burns.
It's also so interesting that earlier in the books, Arya had some moments of guilt, like after she killed the stable boy, and she thought of her mother, worried how she might think of her now. I hope their plot lines intersect in the remaining books!
i remember michelle fairley used to get asked about lady stoneheart and she'd just look sadly :/ she would've killed it, she's one of the best actresses from the show
Lady stoneheart's ommision is not as serious as the ommision of young griff. Young griff changes the whole story from who sits on the iron throne to the on going bickering of tyrells and lannisters
Yeah completely agreed, I have an admitted personal favoritism towards Young Griff's story anyway, but I think that the entire ending of the series literally did not make sense because of Young Griff's absence.
There is also the butchering of Euron who they turned into a simple Lanninster henchman, when his character is all about pushing the fantasy element of the story further.
@@jamie_d0g978 To be fair, they also really made the story explode again, after it seemed like it well be more streamlined and narrow closer to a conclusion after Storm of Swords, when the War of the Five Kings began to conclude. I feel like it kinda bit George in the ass, considering how many plotlines he opened up with Feast and Dance.
I also think the Arya and Lady Stoneheart connection could have another aspect for Arya. Beyond becoming an assassin, a good chunk of Arya's early development is her connection with the smallfolk, she plays with commoners on her journey South, and sees a child killed for the crime of basically being around during a conflict between Lords. She leaves with smallfolk as well to try and get back to Winterfell and sees war from their perspective in that travel. I think in addition to learning between justice and vengeance with Lady Stoneheart, Arya will also see the BWB being corrupted in that struggle by Stoneheart by hurting the innocent and the smallfolk. I think its likely that the endgame for a fully realized mature Arya is to basically take the BWB and make them back into a force to protect the smallfolk from the game of thrones, provided she doesn't die trying to stop a targaryen dragon rider, white walkers, or eldritch iron born from hurting the common people even more.
I think Stoneheart is going to be important in Arya's chatacter arc, but that's not the only way in which she is important. Actions always have consequences in ASOIAF and Lady Stoneheart is the direct consequence of the Red Wedding. As you say, GRRM doesn't use large-scale massacres as if they're solutions to anything, they will always bite the perpetrators back in the end. One of my major annoyances with the TV show is how the Red Wedding simply ended the Robb/Catelyn storyline and it's as if the Riverlands don't exist anymore. It's much better in the books where the Red Wedding shakes up everything in the North and the Riverlands and is as much a beginning of new stories as the end of Robb's story. We get reminded of the story of the Rat Cook to drive home the point that killing people under the protection of guest right will curse you, and everything we see happen after that to both the Boltons and Freys is meant to reflect that. For the Boltons, their betrayal of the Starks in the Red Wedding will cause the annihilation of their house mostly at the hands of the other Northern lords (which the TV show also screwed up royally by turning Ramsay into a VIllain Sue and effectively removing the Northern conspiracy from existence, all for some cheap drama involving the Jon/Sansa v Ramsay struggle). But for the Freys, it is Lady Stoneheart who is the very personification of the crimes of the Freys, and the main actor in delivering payback towards their house. It is because of Lady Stoneheart that the Freys aren't reaping the rewards of the Red Wedding for a moment, as they are constantly attacked from all sides and get murdered left and right. By taking out Lady Stoneheart, the showrunners effectively let the Freys get away with all of their crimes with zero repercussions, even though Lord Frey was supposedly "cursed", until they bring them back for a cheap feel-good moment when Arya gets to kill them and we can all shout "Yaaas slay queen!" at our screens. And while I'm typing this, I realize there is a third major reason why Stoneheart is going to be important and that is Jaime's arc. Although I don't know how yet, but it's not going to be a coincidence that Jaime is going to Stoneheart right after the moment he rejects Cersei's plea for help. I think it's possible Stoneheart will try to get him to swear an oath to kill Cersei, an oath to take a life as a dark echo of his previous oath to her to preserve two lives. This may actually be the end of Cersei in the next book, as I can't see how she can have any future anyway as a major player in the story.
Wow, that would be the wildest way to fulfill the volanqar prophecy and one that I honestly don't know if I've ever seen considered. Everyone thinks Tyrion (including Cersei,) Daenerys (though she's also the more likely younger more beautiful queen,) and Arya (which the theory of her realizing vengeance is not the answer in the Riverlands would probably make very unlikely.) I really like it and I think in some ways that would be an appropriate completion of Jaime's own arc. I also think the omission of the Great Northern Conspiracy was incredibly stupid, especially in light of the result of Northern independence they still included. The North Remembers, Winter is Coming, the theories about the magic running through the Stark bloodline, The Wall, their connection to the Old Gods and therefore to tCofF, the complex history filled with pacts and oaths and mystery, the North is so rich politically and spiritually and it's a vital aspect not just of Westerosi politics, which many characters do recognize, but to the fulfillment of prophecies from around the ASOIAF world. It's so ironic to me that in universe, the people from the rest of Westeros think the people of the North are strange, backwards, superstitious, unrefined, they have this clear religious separation, they're very othered and besides that it's recognized the North is too big and othered to be kept to heel by an outsider, it's not really given a second look. And B&W did basically the same thing, it's just plot device and background without really exploring the richness it has in the text.
You’ve completely changed the way I think about the story of ASoIaF. I’ve been binging your channel the past few days and you’ve got a lifetime sub. Thank you for doing what you do (and with the respect towards hard subjects that you do it with)!
Although I am a massive fan of the theory that says that lady stoneheart will be brienne's "mad kind aerys" - meaning she was the person she swore to serve but will eventually have to kill to protect the innocent - and thus parallel brienne's journey with jaime's although with very different result, you have made me a fan of this theory as well. I always thought lady stoneheart's theme of justice vs vengeance is a theme that perfectly alligns with arya's. My main issue with it is that arya is in bravos and stoneheart in the riverlands. Arya going back to westeros and somehow meeting her in the short timeframe we have (remember that brienne is on the way to lure Jaim'e to stoneheart's and the bwb trap) seems unlikely. I truly like this theory, but idk how it would work in the story
I think you can have both - I love Brienne having her own “mad king” but Aerys was ‘allowed’ to get to that point first. Stoneheart can reunite with Arya and get killed by Brienne later, you’d still have a satisfying conclusion/lesson for both characters. The timing could be a little tight, but I’d say it’s pretty obvious Arya isn’t going to be in Braavos forever, and probably not for much longer.
Winds is supposed to have more Horror…The Frey Lannister Wedding is coming….Walder would have kept Robb and his wolfs bodies as trophies. Cats been getting intel before she hangs Freys... She said she wanted her son alive or every Frey dead. But she might be planning to do both. She could be planning her own wedding massacre and in the middle she’ll sew her sons head back on and resurect him as an undead Night King to kill Walder Frey and massacre the remaining Freys and Lannisters; Stoneheart might not even have to die to do it… Arya is finally reunited with family in a way that is more horrible than she can imagine. They have all become monsters. She must end them or escape them, and struggle back to her humanity as they gruesomely massacre the Westerlands in vengeance as Robb makes his way back to his Bride…
Arya and Lady Stoneheart meeting would be an insane payoff to two lines from all the way back to ACOK and AGOT. In A Clash of Kings, when at a sept after meeting Renly, Catelyn looked to the faces and for a moment saw them flickering between her loved ones, and for one brief moment it was Arya, foreshadowing her Faceless Man journey, but also their reunion with Arya likely wearing another's face. In A Game of Thrones, Syrio Forel tells Arya of his test to be the First Sword of the Sealord of Braavos; describe a cat. Firstly, it's just a classic the Emperor Has No Clothes metaphor, that people-pleasers and all that paint it as greater than it is, saying it's a special and ferocious lion or something, but Syrion had common sense and saw through it. Secondly, it is more likely about him being able to see through glamours and all that, a magically disguised cat that everyone truly does see as a lion, but Syrio has a sharp eye which can see through such glamours, and thus he saw it as a cat, which was a test to see if he could spot Faceless Men and their magical facial glamours, which is very important for an important figure who may be assassinated (also more foreshadowing of the Facless Men in Arya's storyline). But lastly, it foreshadows Arya's reconnection to her mother, because while everyone else sees the horrible and cruel and tortured and evil Lady Stoneheart... Arya will see through it, through the facade and the reputation and the pain, and she will see her mother, she will see Cat.
In my eyes cutting out Stoneheart was like cutting a giant hole in a blanket. You can try to use it still, or sew it up but it is gonna be messed up. Which explains most of the issues in the series
Completely agreed and it was a huge disappointment, especially since their reasoning was that apparently they didn't want everyone to expect Jon to come back from the dead when he was killed... and literally everyone expected him to come back anyway.
LOL thanks! And it's not the most creative take but honestly it's the only way I can make heads or tails of why GRRM was so salty about GoT cutting her out.
@@HillsAliveYT I like your take! I agree Lady Stoneheart and Arya have a strong connection. It seems very fitting for them to meet up, and poor Arya mercy kills her after a while. It's very sad but I like it a lot.
Thanks! And honestly in retrospect, given how meaningless Jon's resurrection wound up being anyway, it's incredibly disappointing that they ditched Lady Stoneheart too.
@@HillsAliveYT I cannot believe they have Sandor of all people try to play this role for Arya in the show. Also, yes I thought Arya’s assassin training arc was leading to her taking out Daenerys. That she would, in the end, fight to preserve life instead of revenge.
Yes that was VERY WEIRD, honestly the Hound's whole conclusions with both Stark girls OUTRAGEOUSLY missed the mark for me, both the absurdity of Arya going through all this nutty shit and then him just saying one thing to her that changes her mind, and every time I think about the "broken in rough" scene with Sansa basically implying that being violently raped improved her I imagine my head exploding like that guy in Scanners.
Please do more videos like this, especially about characters and plots that were either drastically changed or not included at all, and the effect their absence had on the overall story.
I think you're right, effectively in the show Arya was just a cold hearted killer, not exactly this kind of characters that GRR likes to write with complexity and non binary minds
i remember talking this points with show fans at the time of air. I also argued that Jon Snow was undeserving of being named King in the north, being that it was his choices that almost killed them all, and was Sansa (and LF) who actually saved them. Jon takes a lot of terrible bad decisions all along the show, and yet, i was always showered with insults when i mentioned it. The only good thing of having such a bad last season, is that now it is very obvious that the creators of the show had dropped the ball and stopped giving a fuck in the last years, and is impossible to justify, even from the head place of the undying fans.
This is the best explanation for why Lady Stoneheart matters that I've come across so far. I still don't blame the writers for choosing to omit her from the television series, since it really does seem like the sort of thing that would work better in a book than on screen (personally I think that books can be a lot more forgiving), and without Lady Stoneheart's full story being available for adaptation, they might not have known what to do with her. But I really hope that we get to see what Martin's been planning for her all this time.
In the Books, Arya didn't include the Freys in her Killing-List, because she doesn't know who exactly is responsible for it. So in Case Arya killing the Freys in the Books she needs to meet with Lady Stoneheart so that she will actually kill the Freys, and she will only want to kill Walder and those who killed Robb and his Wife, but Lady Stoneheart will want to kill them all. That's what I realized after rewatching this Video a dozen Times, and only after looking up the difference between the Killing List in the Books vs. the Killing-List in the Show I realized what that could mean. I wanted to share it with you.
What do you think will happen when Brienne takes Jaime to Stoneheart? Surely, Stoneheart will force Jaime to use his influence to help with the massacre of the Freys, perhaps holding Brienne as hostage. Alternately, many believe Brienne and Jaime must fight in a trial by combat. Some think this trial by combat will end by them both teaming up to kill Stoneheart. Alternately, Stoneheart may have heard that Arya is alive- perhaps through Aryas psychic signature within Nymeria, which Catelyn , now connected to the world of spirit, recognizes- and she sends Jaime and Brienne to find Arya and bring her to Stone heart. Maybe that’s how Arya leaves the House of BW. She goes with Jaime, who says her mother is alive. Arya dosent believe him because she saw Catelyns dead body. But she goes anyway as she thinks it’s a way to get close to Cersei who is on her list. Perhaps also, the house of BE send Arya on a mission to Westeros to kill the Mountain as the house of BW are against the undead. So when Jaime arrives, Arya goes with him for many reasons.
I'm not sure what will happen with Jaime but I definitely don't see Stoneheart dying before meeting up with Arya again, I think there is a lot of unresolved tension there and I think that Arya will be the one to mercy kill Stoneheart.
@@HillsAliveYT I wonder if Arya might save Jaime by mercy killing Stoneheart, like maybe not even wittingly but maybe she sees her mother kill a person without any trial and when she tries to do the same thing to jaime, Arya realizes that her family wouldn't want to be avenged in some brutal murder but in a proper manner of justice.
I feel like they’re justification of well we didn’t want to tip our hand on Jon for later is kinda weak. IIRC Lady Stonehearts appearance and Jon’s death happen around the same time so you can just wait to reveal her identity till after Jons back. We’ve already seen Beric be brought back to life at this point in the show
I haven't read it anywhere but I think, jon's resurrection by melissandra didn't make much sense, to add value to it, they make melissandre doubt her faith and it doesn't feel right. I think Lady Stoneheart solves this in the upcoming books. Catelyn Stark archetype is a mother. A mother who couldn't love a motherless child, nor asked her husband to finally give him the house name. She thinks that's why her house is going through all of this, cause she didn't keep her word to the gods. Lady stoneheart is given life through Beric Dondarrion from the botherhood without banners. She'll go north and will find once again Jon Snow losing his life. Even with the heart of stone her motherness will shine through and she will give him the life and die, as it happened to Beris. (this is why the lord of light has resurrected Beris so many times, due to the importance of Jon in the war to come) That's how she closes her arch as a mother. She will finally accept him as one of her children. Jon Snow will be reborn, as Jon Stark. The resurrection will make sense, and will be an act of mother love, and not a random thing melissandre did. That's why I think Martin wanted her to be in the story.
It’s such a huge theme in ASOIAF that vengeance destroys people, as is that when the highborns go to war, it’s not them who suffer. It’s the small folk. I think Arya more than any character embodies this. I like the idea that Lady Stoneheart will massacre the Freys, and that Arya will realise that Lady Stoneheart is what she’ll end up like if she keeps going down this path. Like mother, like daughter. I always felt really miffed with how they ruined Arya on the show, like all the trauma she went through on her journey just turned her into this stupid girlboss character who kills anyone who wronged her. There’s no acknowledgment that Arya was just an innocent girl who went down a dark path from all the trauma she went through, just like the Hound, which is why she removes him from her list because she sees he’s just the same as her, subconsciously.
You make a great point: It does feel right for Arya to give Mother Merciless (my favorite name for her) the gift. One of her identities spoiled in Braavos is Mercy! Her story is about giving people who need it the gift of death. Arya is also partly responsible for creating the Revenge Monster that is Stoneheart by pulling her body out of the river as Nymeria so she could be resurrected. There needs to be an eventual conflict between Mercy and Mother Merciless, mother and daughter. But I do disagree that she will join Stoneheart’s band. Her being trained as a faceless assassin for the Facless Men is as big a Checkov’s gun as there is in the story: Arya has to spend much of the rest of her story as a faceless assassin serving the faceless men! I get that David and Dan didn’t want to do her Le Femme Nakita storyline bc that meant having other actresses besides Maisie Williams play her for extended periods! That’s a practical problem for an adaptation. George Martin, on the other hand, is going to absolutely love writing Arya chapters where she plays someone else the entire time. This is exactly the kind of playful writing challenge he loves. His Mercy chapter is incredible. There is zero change that Arya isn’t being sent back to Westeros with assignments: That’s why Jaqen recruited her. That’s why the Faceless Men are training her and keep promoting her even when she keeps messing up. Because no one else in their organization can do Westerosi accents like her! Not to mention no one else knows Kings Landing or Winterfell like her. They want an agent in King’s Landing in the Red Keep whoever is king-and news flash it’s about to be Young Griff, put their by Illyrio Mopatis. Illyrio Mopatis is a slaver! Braavos, the Iron Bank, the Sealord of Braavos, the Faceless Men, they are all opposed to slavery. There top priority is to get an agent into Young Griff’s court to spy, to check Illyrio’s power, and to kill young Griff if necessary. So it has to be Arya’s task to go there and steal Elia Sand’s face as Arianne Martel’s companion. Arianne looks set to marry Young Griff. Then eventually Arya has to steal Arianne’s face and become the Queen herself, fulfilling her Nymeria destiny and Ned’s prediction to her (which she discounted at the time) that she would “marry a prince.” It has to happen, there is too much foreshadowing for it not to. Just as leaving our Lady Stoneheart wreaked havoc to many storylines-especially Jaime and Brienne, Dondarrion’s, and the Brotherhood’s-leaving out Young Griff wreaked havoc. Leaving out Young Griff wrecked Arya’s storyline in King’s Landing more than any other. But it also messed up Cersei’s, Euron’s, Dany’s, and others as well. -Jeff H’ghar, admin of ‘Theory of Ice & Fire’ on quora
agree with most of these points, but I don't agree that Arya will kill Daenerys, Jon just has so much more narrative and story impact. However, I'm sure that Arya will have some other large part to play. Perhaps Euron
Good points made here, but two questions remain: 1: How does linking up with Arya affect Stoneheart? How does a howling revenant of brutal cold-blooded revenge respond when one of the things it thought it lost is restored to it? It's a genuinely creepy thought. 2: Martin always likes showing the unglamourous details of his character's lives (vid. Tywin dead on the toilet; Daenerys puking in the Dothraki Sea). So what does Stoneheart look like to Arya? How does watching the thing-that-was-once-her-mum hobbling about the camp feel like to her? Arya gets some of Martin's most effective prose, and this could be a make-or-break moment for the story just in terms of how good the writing is. No wonder winter is so late.
I agree with you that Arya will meet Stoneheart via Nymeria. I think seeing her mother as this monster will feed her hatred of both the Freys and Lannisters rather than tame it. As a faceless man she will also be afronted at this cheating of death. Martin likes to write the human heart in conflict with itself. Not a single character has had an AHA or EUREKA moment. Neither will Arya. I think she will be forced to kill her mother for good Likely in defense of Jon as I think Stoneheart will hate him more now than ever and will not let him have Robb's crown. And this will drive a wedge between Arya and Jon. I don't think Arya will interact with Dany. I think book will follow show and Sansa will be at odds with Dany.
I must confess, I don't know much about George RR Martin's personal life. It's rare to find someone his age to be as 'switched on' to the concepts of mental health and inter-generational trauma in the way that you describe in your video. Thought provoking video, thank you.
Let’s also not forget that Brienne is likely leading Jaime to Lady Stoneheart and that it will be a critical point for him. Jaime’s outcome rests entirely on Lady Stoneheart
Lady Stoneheart is such a key part of the heart (heh heh) of the story, and I think you're absolutely right that omitting her from the show is a big red flag that the showrunners really did not get it. Personally, I don't like the idea of Arya mercy-killing Lady Stoneheart, mainly because I think it would just be heaping additional trauma on top of Arya's already immense trauma to, essentially, have to kill her own mother. I don't have a good alternate theory to how Lady Stoneheart's story will end, but I do agree that she will be a huge part of Arya's remaining storyline and their encounter will be a turning-point for Arya. Perhaps instead Lady Stoneheart will die because she chooses to pass on her fire the same way it was passed to her by Beric--something that will give Arya more healing and closure. At least that is my hope.
The show scene where she kills all the male Freys is a bit contrived. It won't be this way in the books. It will be much more complicated, and either Arya OR Lady Stoneheart will stop at the idea of killing Edmund's wife Roslyn, this will cause the rethink. But first Arya will hunt a lot of Freys with that giant wolfpack - she just has to!
Good video, but you forgot to mention the "Bread and salt" unwritten law because that is the reason Arya didn't suffer external consequence. She is the "external consequence"!
Yeah I tend to agree, I think a lot of them will die and their House will mostly be disempowered by the end, but there's just too many of them to get rid of completely.
I think Stoneheart will reunite with Arya through Nymeria, as the Brotherhood have been searching for a Wolf of her description and Cat was the first to clock on to the importance of the Direwolves.
1:40 Yeah, I think Young Griff exclusion would be a more impressive plot and thematic change than Lady Stoneheart's, so curious to see where it's going to go.
I hope you are correct in much of this... but I also admire your belief that the book series will EVER be finished. Heck, right now most of us wouldn't put good odds on the next BOOK ever coming out. :(
My bet is that the scene with the 3 phrase is Aria and then the former lady start is the one behind the mass killing. I would also suspect that turns Aria against her own mother and causes her to end the revinant.
Is this really what the showrunners said about the exclusion? "We don't want to spoil Jon's resurrection"? Uhm, you guys included Beric who was literally resurrected on screen l o l
D&D aren't completely wrong that the Lady Stoneheart plot would have likely spoiled Jon's resurrection, buuuuut 1) most viewers never believed he was actually dead anyway so it didn't really matter in the end and 2) it would have made Jon's transformation a lot more dramatic and interesting to have Catelyn as a foil. Not just for their differences (Jon does not come back as a wrathful wraith) but also their similarities. Jon post resurrection is not the same person, he is sort of a shell of his former self and he seems even more burdened with life and his sense of duty than before. But this doesn't translate well on the show, for many reasons.
the night that arya kills that guard was also what really set the diff and made me hate the show more. that guard in harrenhal was offered a coin, she drops it, and slit his throat, and watches him die and attempt to scream through his bloodfilled throat. everything about that description implies deep down arya is fully observing and aware of the violence she just inflicted, and is on the verge of being horrified, but not quite, bc she's seen this all too often. so instead she's numb to the horror she inflicted. its a part of her life now. its her new normal. and the description screams about how terrifying that is, especially for a child. violence from trauma. you captured it perfectly here, n def relayed what a lot of people felt watching her house of black and white arc get butchered
I freaking adore Lady Stoneheart I just hope it doesn’t turn into a Truman Capote situation where he dies before the series near the end Example Truman Capote & Unanswered Prayers
Arya killing Daenerys, “the ‘Prince’ that was promised”, with the Valyrian dagger that was passed down along with the Prince that was promised prophecy would be quite the irony.
I think Catelyn stays away from her children because she doesn’t want them to see the monster she has become. She’d rather their memories of her remain unscathed.
On the Arya and Daenerys point I just re-read ACOK and their inverse-mirror is clear in there. Arya is in the conflict seeing how horrible it is and living the actual situation of Westeros while Daenerys sits in Quarth fantasizing about the wrath she’ll bring to it oblivious to how people there live. Arya will be converted to an agent of justice by her on the ground experiences while Daenerys will sit and order the deaths of thousands thinking she is a just one. I can see Arya killing Daenerys as a feasible possibility with this in mind.
B&W just clearly didn't understand the characters, their arcs, or even the ASOIAF universe itself. They were show runners, making an HBO show with carte blanche for the levels of sex and violence they could include, and used it not to expose something about the characters or some moral lesson like ASOIAF does, but to draw an audience and generate publicity. I like this theory. On some level, I did and do think that within the truncated arcs of the show, Arya training to be one of the most deadly assassins- not a fighter, knight, or warrior but an assassin specifically- makes sense for her final big act to be to kill the NK. And also for her to go exploring west of Westeros, since she idolized the legendary Queen Nymeria so much (though- why couldn't they have just had Gendry go with her? Would have been a cute nod/Easter egg to the Baratheons that got lost at sea.) But in the books with a fully realized arc, Arya has to come to the conclusion that her list and crossing it off is not going to bring her family back. It's not going to bring her satisfaction or pride or whatever else she's been telling herself it will to make it through her brutal training. And I think her reunion and temporary collaboration with Lady Stoneheart will be a visceral lesson in that reunification with what she has lost would only bring perverse pain and keep her locked into her past, constantly retraumatizing herself. She is a child soldier, as they exist in ASOIAF. Though as a Daenerys fan I don't want her to become a Big Bad, if she does, Arya killing her in an act of justice for the living, rather than vengeance for the dead would be a good way for her to complete her circle, so to speak, and then hopefully move on- maybe even by becoming some version of a lady, like she always thought she didn't want. Maybe she and Gendry will go sailing after all.
personally Arya destroying the Frey is my favorite and most satisfying moment of the show.We cannot put our modern morals into a fantasy show based on a time of our history where vengeance was the norm and was expected.but i agry that lady stoneheart not being in the show was a big mistake and probably changed Arya story line a lot.
While that is true it does also set the bar of morality low for everyone, for example you can't exactly call Dany/Theon/Ellaria/ect a bad person because of their actions while also glorifying Arya a for her actions. Readers expect consistancy and when one character is held to a diffrent level of morality than another it just undermines a lot of the characters and their stories.
Only Arya can release the spirit of the mother who wanted her to be a girly girl. and she will realize she loved her mother and did not know it. It's going to be heartbreaking.
Fantastically done. Not to overstep bounds or step on toes, but I'm working on a bit of a Littlelfinger youtube project atm myself, if you'd be inclined to grace me with a discussion I would be most grateful. I'm very curious to hear your thoughts and analysis on Littlefinger both as to where the character is going but also as to what his narrative place is in the tale. No hard feelings either way but if you feel like a palavering about the ol' Baelish drop me a line or message or greendream or what have you. As always I am in admiration of your great videos!
My day is made! I can't figure out if youtube has a messaging system (confused on that...) But I have a discord account RandomInternetGuy#4571, so feel free to message me there. Or let me know the best way to get at you and I'll make it work!
Lady Stoneheart is the body manifest of the Old God's as associated with the rules of hearth. This is to contrast the power of The New God. Please note, Lady was even punishing anyone who helped the Lanister's, even the ones she had oath bound. Arya will be leaving Lady alone. I believe Lady will eventually make her way to Winterfell crypts and pass her power to another or be the Mother of the First Children rebirth. Just my 2 cents.
Arya killing the Freys' one of the many things I don't like about the show, it misses Arya's morality, she doesn't just kill out hatred, there's a duty about it that she feels (much like all the Starks) you are not allowed to desert the Wall for instance. Or you'll die, I believe it's why she was chosen and also why she'll be released (under supervision) because the faceless man know all that happens in Westeros and as of the fifth book I believe they know what's going to happen in the north
I think your pretty spot on till you get to Dany. I don’t see Arya being the one. My hope is that Dany does it kind of herself after realizing the innocence she’s done damage to
It's actually amazing how much they made me hate Arya by the end, I used to love the character but they took a conflicted anti-hero character and turned her into a smug murder machine.
A big problem with the show later on is how shrunken the main cast of characters became, they both cut and unnecessarily killed so many. I can’t think of a single important character introduced after season 5, and I can’t remember a single well written important character being introduced DURING season 5 either. Not to mention the dozen or so characters that dropped off the face of the earth after season 4. They spent half the show widdeling down the cast until the pieces of the puzzle necessary to finish the picture didn’t exist. I truly think D and D deluded themselves into thinking that the success of the show was because of themselves, and not despite themselves. So they thought they knew what storylines to cut as opposed to listening to George.
I do wonder how much will Arya absorb of the ideology/faith of the faceless men. Should she become convinced by them (likely as a pre-teen/teen mind is quite easy to brainwash), how will she react to her mother losing the gift of death?
Around the time Lady Stoneheart should've entered the story but didn't is when I lost interest in the show and eventually dropped it. I'm not a huge GOT fan, I haven't even read all the books, but I knew just enough to see that their choice to cut her was a big mistake. Combined with the other strange adaptional choices they were making at the time I wasn't surprised when everything went to shit in the following seasons.
I stopped liking Arya after she became an assassin. They turned her into a total Mary Sue and she had no more character development. She became every cringy, feminist, fan fic writer's wet dream.
The TV show seemed to revel in the violence (including Arya’s) for its value in titillating the audience. But in the books, most acts of violence cause the reader to see the perpetrators as damaged or traumatized in their own way. For the Hound and Arya violence is a hollow pursuit that brings no satisfaction, but they are compelled to continue nonetheless. Lady Stoneheart’s reunification with Arya will be as a dark mirror showing the emptiness of revenge. I agree that Arya mercy-killing the remnant of her mother is a proper way to pivot her character away from budding psychopath towards a redemptive defender.
Yeah completely agreed, I feel like they entirely missed the fact that even if the books are incredibly violent, over the top violence is universally a bad sign for the person engaging in it. GoT basically never acknowledged that in Arya's case, or in the case of hardly any of the other characters. Frankly, I'm quite sure if they had even implied the fact that killing people with exceptional brutality (even if the characters think that the people deserve it) wasn't super badass and was instead actually pretty fucked up, the reaction to the show's ending wouldn't have been nearly as shocked or outraged as it was.
Totally agree. I started to sour on the show when I realized that nudity and violence were both filmed with an identical, almost pornographic gaze. Fight scenes regularly ground to a halt so that the camera could get a good long close-up of some gory spectacle before resuming the fight, the same way it titillated with boobs and sex. Violence and sex (and their intermingling) were merely moments for the showrunners to say "bro isn't this awesome! See how cool and edgy we are?" rather than opportunities to explore themes or give insight into our characters and their journeys.
After that I kind of knew that the showrunners did not and never would have the maturity or subtlety to adapt this story the way it deserves.
Yeah, someone pointed out that the Hound and Brienne fight only happened in the show. It's more likely that the nameless Gravedigger is the Hound, finally able to put his history of violence behind and live a peaceful life through others' deaths. It means we won't get Clegane-Bowl, but it would be a better resolution for Sandor Clegane and him finding a path away from his trauma.
What make you think Arya is getting a redemption archive.
Thematically it's not happening. The good characters become bad guys, and the bad characters become good guys.
Areas a sociopath.
Dany burns kings landing.
John snow is the night king.
Jamie's a good guy and he dies in his next chapter
Arya will be blind and nameless in the books. You think George R.R. will abandon such a philosophically deep and emotionally challenging storyline as the faceless men, the same way the show did? Nope. Having her regain her eye-sight, identity, go home to kill every Frey, and then stab the Night King, single handedly destroying the biggest threat in the entire story, is pure, unadulterated, shitty GoT showrunner fan-service. It won't go down even close to like this in the books.
A scene with Aria cutting, gutting, skinning, and cooking the bodies might have made the audience question their loyalty to her.
But then it would have been more than one scene to devote to a major plot development, and they couldnt be bothered with that in their mad dash to end the show
And what about the servants she would have had to kill to have the kitchen all to herself to make Hannibal Lecter's dream feast?
Wyman Manderly is widely believed to have baked a bunch of Freys in pies and eaten them, yet readers still see him as ultimately a good guy in the story.
@@renaigh I think it's a bit more split with him. Also we still didn't see it.
@@renaigh while that may not be "good guy" behavior the freys actually deserves that
There was one of those after show interviews with Dan and David where they outright say Arya always makes the "coolest" choice. It was said in comparison to Sansa. And I was like, "oh my god they don't understand these characters at all."
Arya is also responsible for Stoneheart. She asked Beric to reunite her with her mother and he gave his word "on his honor as a knight". Which I always assumed, since Beric is one of the few that his word means something, is why he gave his life for Catelyn. The fact that the show kept Beric was also odd.
I was also told by someone who works at GRRM's publishing house that the show leaving out Stoneheart was why he stopped writing episodes. And that he wasn't on speaking terms with D&D in the final seasons.
Is stoneheart that integral to the story that when it was clear she wasn't in the show, george dropped out eventually? there's definitely something more there
@@ig1441 I talked with him in Spain a few years back and he was in bad terms with D&D by season 6 I think it was. He doesn't really like the derive of the show after the red wedding. He told me that everything they did in pre production was focused on that twist and after that it started to get rushed and weird. He doesn't talked in deep about it, but there's something more clearly.
@@jamie_d0g978 damn thats such a shame. season 4 is one of the highlights of the show for me i can’t imagine what the turnout might’ve been if they kept her character in
There's also their refusal to make Tyrion's psyche to deteriorate after Jaime's reveal about Tyrion 's first wife not being a prostitute.
Is like they know Tyrion is a fan favorite and therefore cannot stand portraying him in a negative light.
@@ig1441 according to the story we already have, Stoneheart is at least going to heavily affect Jaime and Brienne's stories with Jaime essentially riding to his death at Stoneheart's hands. It's also believed she will play a big role in Arya and Sansa's stories, especially with whatever happens next with the Freys and may also be involved with some of the Northern politics later down the line although I doubt it. Rn Stoneheart to me and the story is only there to finish Jaime's character arc.
You are right. Arya's unchecked PTSD and the damage to the mind of an impressionable pre-teen / teen being translated into bad-assery is in poor taste.. Your videos are very good.
💜 Thanks! And it's very poor taste, I think it did quite a disservice to the complexity of her character.
Right now Arya's sense of justice is so warped that she killed that boy who was deserting the watch in Bravos - I forget his name right now. That murder is significant. It's not someone who has harmed her, it's not someone who has harmed ANYONE she knows of. She thinks of it as justice, as something Ned would have done, because it's a deserter from the Night's Watch, but for her it represents a slip past killing people on her list, who she might have some justification for killing, versus taking on this responsibility which wouldn't even be hers. It's the clearest demonstration that GRRM doesn't think what she is doing is "Badassery"
I think it's likely that Arya knows that Jon is Lord Commander (though I can't remember if this is confirmed or implied in the books) and that Dareon is betraying Jon, not just doing the deed her father would have done if he caught Dareon.
This was in the books and not the show, correct? The only person of significance I remember her killing on the show in Braavos (besides The Waif) was Meryn Trant.
@@piercehubbard4086 Season 5 onward diverges so far from the books it's crazy. It was only after I read the books during the covid lockdown that I realised how much had been cut. The Night's Watch deserter Arya killed in Braavos was named Dareon. He wasn't included in the show. And in the books Ser Meryn Trant and Mace tyrell never sets foot in Braavos to negotiate with the Iron Bank. In the books it's Ser Harys Swyft and Raff the Sweetling (he is on Arya's list for killing Lommy Greenhands) who go instead
@@piercehubbard4086 I don't remember if Samwell traveled with anyone besides Aemon and Gilly in the show. In the books, Jon sends Dareon with them to recruit and also switches Gilly's baby with Mance's baby (to protect Mance's baby from Melisandre).
Arya has her sight taken in Braavos (for the same reasons as in the show), but she is able to see because she can warg into a cat. All the Stark kids can warg in the books, and Rickon was probably the first to figure it out.
@@ashtton_tapiwa - You know I’ve heard that after that GRRM just stopped writing the next ASOIAF book because he was really upset with what D&D were doing to it. I don’t know how someone could prove that unless he or his publisher confirmed it on the record. Anyways, seems totally logical to me! I really would like to see him finish the series how he wanted, not that rushed season 8 crap. I’m sure his ending would be much more imaginative, and interesting. Leaving you actually somewhat satisfied. Right now we have a void in our hearts left by the “ending” of the show.
I'm really interested in how much of catlyn is still in lady stoneheart. Especially when she reunites with one of her children
Yeah same, I hope that she'll reunite with Arya and Brynden, I think it's likely and they both know her very well in different ways.
I want Lady Stoneheart to meet Sansa. especially since Sansa is now Alayne and posing as Littlefinger's bastard daughter. I am so hoping they see each other.
I honestly don't think THAT much had changed in Catlyn to Lady Stoneheart. I think we are seeing an exceptionally pissed off and unforgiving Catlyn. We know how Catlyn can hold an irrational grudge against someone, especially someone who has not directly or purposely hurt her. I think Lady Stonehert is a Catlyn who, believing her family is dead, just doesn't care and is blood thirsty and acting on her baser instincts.
@@murph8837 the grudge is not irrational lmao
I wonder even if she found out the truth about Jon, would that change her view of him. R would she find a way to blame him for their current misfortunes?
I was always really frustrated with people that said Danaerys was crazy and violent but didn't see it with Arya because she was framed as justified and cool.
Same. Arya recreating the Red Wedding killed any sympathy I had for her. Worse than the Red Wedding, she got them to commit cannibalism, something described in the World of Ice and Fire as abhorrent
Lmao. Wtf that's how they frame dany now Arya she kills a bunch of innocent people in the books too
@@MegaKnight2012 arya did in not looking to become powerful but simply as a revenge of the crimes the Frey, dany does it for power + she killed 200k innocent civilians lol
@@MegaKnight2012 this is an extremely weird take. Lmao.
@@sansonefabio8177 So why they did it was what made it bad, not what they did? Dany was bad because she did it for revenge and power but because Arya only did for revenge, that's okay?
Totally agree. The entirety of Arya’s storyline is obviously very disturbing. I think her time in the house of black and white is meant to teach her a different view of the idea of death and killing. Where she has seen it up until that point to be bad or vengeful, her time becoming a faceless assassin will teach her that death can be a mercy (tying in the idea of the mother-depicted as merciful.) Also showing the most cut and dry meaning of the idea that all men must die.
I think Lady Stoneheart will play more of a role with Arya than helping her understand the distinction between justice and vengeance. Stoneheart will be a sorrowful example to Arya how being resurrected by R’hllor can pervert the people she loves for certain ends.
Daenerys may not be the only Targaryen she kills when King’s Landing burns.
Damn, that's a dark take but I'm here for it!
Ayo
TWIST
It's also so interesting that earlier in the books, Arya had some moments of guilt, like after she killed the stable boy, and she thought of her mother, worried how she might think of her now. I hope their plot lines intersect in the remaining books!
i remember michelle fairley used to get asked about lady stoneheart and she'd just look sadly :/ she would've killed it, she's one of the best actresses from the show
Absolutely!
Lady stoneheart's ommision is not as serious as the ommision of young griff. Young griff changes the whole story from who sits on the iron throne to the on going bickering of tyrells and lannisters
Yeah completely agreed, I have an admitted personal favoritism towards Young Griff's story anyway, but I think that the entire ending of the series literally did not make sense because of Young Griff's absence.
@@HillsAliveYT And we even didn't get started about the Blackfyre theory which might even be true!
There is also the butchering of Euron who they turned into a simple Lanninster henchman, when his character is all about pushing the fantasy element of the story further.
Euron and Griff are world changers in the history. Omitting them from the show was a fatal blow. I don't even think Cersei survives WoW tbh
@@jamie_d0g978 To be fair, they also really made the story explode again, after it seemed like it well be more streamlined and narrow closer to a conclusion after Storm of Swords, when the War of the Five Kings began to conclude. I feel like it kinda bit George in the ass, considering how many plotlines he opened up with Feast and Dance.
I also think the Arya and Lady Stoneheart connection could have another aspect for Arya. Beyond becoming an assassin, a good chunk of Arya's early development is her connection with the smallfolk, she plays with commoners on her journey South, and sees a child killed for the crime of basically being around during a conflict between Lords. She leaves with smallfolk as well to try and get back to Winterfell and sees war from their perspective in that travel. I think in addition to learning between justice and vengeance with Lady Stoneheart, Arya will also see the BWB being corrupted in that struggle by Stoneheart by hurting the innocent and the smallfolk. I think its likely that the endgame for a fully realized mature Arya is to basically take the BWB and make them back into a force to protect the smallfolk from the game of thrones, provided she doesn't die trying to stop a targaryen dragon rider, white walkers, or eldritch iron born from hurting the common people even more.
I think Stoneheart is going to be important in Arya's chatacter arc, but that's not the only way in which she is important. Actions always have consequences in ASOIAF and Lady Stoneheart is the direct consequence of the Red Wedding. As you say, GRRM doesn't use large-scale massacres as if they're solutions to anything, they will always bite the perpetrators back in the end.
One of my major annoyances with the TV show is how the Red Wedding simply ended the Robb/Catelyn storyline and it's as if the Riverlands don't exist anymore. It's much better in the books where the Red Wedding shakes up everything in the North and the Riverlands and is as much a beginning of new stories as the end of Robb's story. We get reminded of the story of the Rat Cook to drive home the point that killing people under the protection of guest right will curse you, and everything we see happen after that to both the Boltons and Freys is meant to reflect that. For the Boltons, their betrayal of the Starks in the Red Wedding will cause the annihilation of their house mostly at the hands of the other Northern lords (which the TV show also screwed up royally by turning Ramsay into a VIllain Sue and effectively removing the Northern conspiracy from existence, all for some cheap drama involving the Jon/Sansa v Ramsay struggle).
But for the Freys, it is Lady Stoneheart who is the very personification of the crimes of the Freys, and the main actor in delivering payback towards their house. It is because of Lady Stoneheart that the Freys aren't reaping the rewards of the Red Wedding for a moment, as they are constantly attacked from all sides and get murdered left and right.
By taking out Lady Stoneheart, the showrunners effectively let the Freys get away with all of their crimes with zero repercussions, even though Lord Frey was supposedly "cursed", until they bring them back for a cheap feel-good moment when Arya gets to kill them and we can all shout "Yaaas slay queen!" at our screens.
And while I'm typing this, I realize there is a third major reason why Stoneheart is going to be important and that is Jaime's arc. Although I don't know how yet, but it's not going to be a coincidence that Jaime is going to Stoneheart right after the moment he rejects Cersei's plea for help. I think it's possible Stoneheart will try to get him to swear an oath to kill Cersei, an oath to take a life as a dark echo of his previous oath to her to preserve two lives. This may actually be the end of Cersei in the next book, as I can't see how she can have any future anyway as a major player in the story.
Wow, that would be the wildest way to fulfill the volanqar prophecy and one that I honestly don't know if I've ever seen considered. Everyone thinks Tyrion (including Cersei,) Daenerys (though she's also the more likely younger more beautiful queen,) and Arya (which the theory of her realizing vengeance is not the answer in the Riverlands would probably make very unlikely.) I really like it and I think in some ways that would be an appropriate completion of Jaime's own arc.
I also think the omission of the Great Northern Conspiracy was incredibly stupid, especially in light of the result of Northern independence they still included. The North Remembers, Winter is Coming, the theories about the magic running through the Stark bloodline, The Wall, their connection to the Old Gods and therefore to tCofF, the complex history filled with pacts and oaths and mystery, the North is so rich politically and spiritually and it's a vital aspect not just of Westerosi politics, which many characters do recognize, but to the fulfillment of prophecies from around the ASOIAF world. It's so ironic to me that in universe, the people from the rest of Westeros think the people of the North are strange, backwards, superstitious, unrefined, they have this clear religious separation, they're very othered and besides that it's recognized the North is too big and othered to be kept to heel by an outsider, it's not really given a second look. And B&W did basically the same thing, it's just plot device and background without really exploring the richness it has in the text.
Stannis is gonna have freys and Bolton under his boot .
What's the betting Maggy the Frog will meet with Lady Stoneheart? That could help Stoneheart demand an oath of vengeance from Jaime
You’ve completely changed the way I think about the story of ASoIaF. I’ve been binging your channel the past few days and you’ve got a lifetime sub. Thank you for doing what you do (and with the respect towards hard subjects that you do it with)!
Although I am a massive fan of the theory that says that lady stoneheart will be brienne's "mad kind aerys" - meaning she was the person she swore to serve but will eventually have to kill to protect the innocent - and thus parallel brienne's journey with jaime's although with very different result, you have made me a fan of this theory as well. I always thought lady stoneheart's theme of justice vs vengeance is a theme that perfectly alligns with arya's. My main issue with it is that arya is in bravos and stoneheart in the riverlands. Arya going back to westeros and somehow meeting her in the short timeframe we have (remember that brienne is on the way to lure Jaim'e to stoneheart's and the bwb trap) seems unlikely. I truly like this theory, but idk how it would work in the story
I think you can have both - I love Brienne having her own “mad king” but Aerys was ‘allowed’ to get to that point first. Stoneheart can reunite with Arya and get killed by Brienne later, you’d still have a satisfying conclusion/lesson for both characters. The timing could be a little tight, but I’d say it’s pretty obvious Arya isn’t going to be in Braavos forever, and probably not for much longer.
Winds is supposed to have more Horror…The Frey Lannister Wedding is coming….Walder would have kept Robb and his wolfs bodies as trophies. Cats been getting intel before she hangs Freys... She said she wanted her son alive or every Frey dead. But she might be planning to do both. She could be planning her own wedding massacre and in the middle she’ll sew her sons head back on and resurect him as an undead Night King to kill Walder Frey and massacre the remaining Freys and Lannisters; Stoneheart might not even have to die to do it… Arya is finally reunited with family in a way that is more horrible than she can imagine. They have all become monsters. She must end them or escape them, and struggle back to her humanity as they gruesomely massacre the Westerlands in vengeance as Robb makes his way back to his Bride…
Sick theory 🔥
@@Aspiringtrader2024 yes I'm loving it too
Can I just say " aaaaaaahhhhhh!" ?
gurl... can you write a whole book about this.
Arya and Lady Stoneheart meeting would be an insane payoff to two lines from all the way back to ACOK and AGOT.
In A Clash of Kings, when at a sept after meeting Renly, Catelyn looked to the faces and for a moment saw them flickering between her loved ones, and for one brief moment it was Arya, foreshadowing her Faceless Man journey, but also their reunion with Arya likely wearing another's face.
In A Game of Thrones, Syrio Forel tells Arya of his test to be the First Sword of the Sealord of Braavos; describe a cat. Firstly, it's just a classic the Emperor Has No Clothes metaphor, that people-pleasers and all that paint it as greater than it is, saying it's a special and ferocious lion or something, but Syrion had common sense and saw through it. Secondly, it is more likely about him being able to see through glamours and all that, a magically disguised cat that everyone truly does see as a lion, but Syrio has a sharp eye which can see through such glamours, and thus he saw it as a cat, which was a test to see if he could spot Faceless Men and their magical facial glamours, which is very important for an important figure who may be assassinated (also more foreshadowing of the Facless Men in Arya's storyline). But lastly, it foreshadows Arya's reconnection to her mother, because while everyone else sees the horrible and cruel and tortured and evil Lady Stoneheart... Arya will see through it, through the facade and the reputation and the pain, and she will see her mother, she will see Cat.
In my eyes cutting out Stoneheart was like cutting a giant hole in a blanket. You can try to use it still, or sew it up but it is gonna be messed up. Which explains most of the issues in the series
It was a huge mistake to cut Lady Stoneheart.
Completely agreed and it was a huge disappointment, especially since their reasoning was that apparently they didn't want everyone to expect Jon to come back from the dead when he was killed... and literally everyone expected him to come back anyway.
Even Martin himself complained about this!
@@PedroLucas-mg5je I know!
They told Michelle tho her acting abilities where pretty much not good enough
Oh dam yes! Sorry, I'm commenting before watching, but I'm just so excited for your take on Lady Stoneheart and the lack thereof in the show.
LOL thanks! And it's not the most creative take but honestly it's the only way I can make heads or tails of why GRRM was so salty about GoT cutting her out.
@@HillsAliveYT I like your take! I agree Lady Stoneheart and Arya have a strong connection. It seems very fitting for them to meet up, and poor Arya mercy kills her after a while. It's very sad but I like it a lot.
Yes! Another great video talking about an important arc and message of the story.
Thanks! And honestly in retrospect, given how meaningless Jon's resurrection wound up being anyway, it's incredibly disappointing that they ditched Lady Stoneheart too.
@@HillsAliveYT I cannot believe they have Sandor of all people try to play this role for Arya in the show. Also, yes I thought Arya’s assassin training arc was leading to her taking out Daenerys. That she would, in the end, fight to preserve life instead of revenge.
Yes that was VERY WEIRD, honestly the Hound's whole conclusions with both Stark girls OUTRAGEOUSLY missed the mark for me, both the absurdity of Arya going through all this nutty shit and then him just saying one thing to her that changes her mind, and every time I think about the "broken in rough" scene with Sansa basically implying that being violently raped improved her I imagine my head exploding like that guy in Scanners.
The best revenge is not to be like your enemies
I like that quote 👍
@@lola-gs8cd it’s from Marcus Aurelius, I believe
That’s definitely not a Ghengis Khan quote
Please do more videos like this, especially about characters and plots that were either drastically changed or not included at all, and the effect their absence had on the overall story.
Why are your videos so good and why am i only just discovering this channel?
You are my favorite asoiaf commentary channel. You give me so much to think about in every video.
I think you're right, effectively in the show Arya was just a cold hearted killer, not exactly this kind of characters that GRR likes to write with complexity and non binary minds
Her going by the persona “mercy” would be some juicy foreshadowing if she ends up putting down lady stoneheart
Again FABULOUS
This, the Jayne Poole video! Sansa, Dany, Meiria (spelling?)
All Great.
i remember talking this points with show fans at the time of air. I also argued that Jon Snow was undeserving of being named King in the north, being that it was his choices that almost killed them all, and was Sansa (and LF) who actually saved them. Jon takes a lot of terrible bad decisions all along the show, and yet, i was always showered with insults when i mentioned it. The only good thing of having such a bad last season, is that now it is very obvious that the creators of the show had dropped the ball and stopped giving a fuck in the last years, and is impossible to justify, even from the head place of the undying fans.
This is the best explanation for why Lady Stoneheart matters that I've come across so far. I still don't blame the writers for choosing to omit her from the television series, since it really does seem like the sort of thing that would work better in a book than on screen (personally I think that books can be a lot more forgiving), and without Lady Stoneheart's full story being available for adaptation, they might not have known what to do with her. But I really hope that we get to see what Martin's been planning for her all this time.
Great, thought-provoking video
Great video. You deserve a sub 😁
Thank you for this video, it’s nice to get excited again about a storyline in Winds of Winter!
In the Books, Arya didn't include the Freys in her Killing-List, because she doesn't know who exactly is responsible for it. So in Case Arya killing the Freys in the Books she needs to meet with Lady Stoneheart so that she will actually kill the Freys, and she will only want to kill Walder and those who killed Robb and his Wife, but Lady Stoneheart will want to kill them all. That's what I realized after rewatching this Video a dozen Times, and only after looking up the difference between the Killing List in the Books vs. the Killing-List in the Show I realized what that could mean. I wanted to share it with you.
Which is exactly why anyone demonizing Daeny but living the Starks makes absolutely no sense
What do you think will happen when Brienne takes Jaime to Stoneheart? Surely, Stoneheart will force Jaime to use his influence to help with the massacre of the Freys, perhaps holding Brienne as hostage. Alternately, many believe Brienne and Jaime must fight in a trial by combat. Some think this trial by combat will end by them both teaming up to kill Stoneheart. Alternately, Stoneheart may have heard that Arya is alive- perhaps through Aryas psychic signature within Nymeria, which Catelyn , now connected to the world of spirit, recognizes- and she sends Jaime and Brienne to find Arya and bring her to Stone heart. Maybe that’s how Arya leaves the House of BW. She goes with Jaime, who says her mother is alive. Arya dosent believe him because she saw Catelyns dead body. But she goes anyway as she thinks it’s a way to get close to Cersei who is on her list. Perhaps also, the house of BE send Arya on a mission to Westeros to kill the Mountain as the house of BW are against the undead. So when Jaime arrives, Arya goes with him for many reasons.
I'm not sure what will happen with Jaime but I definitely don't see Stoneheart dying before meeting up with Arya again, I think there is a lot of unresolved tension there and I think that Arya will be the one to mercy kill Stoneheart.
@@HillsAliveYT or perhaps Lady Stoneheart would sacrifice herself for dead Jon as Beric sacrifice himself to save a her?
@@HillsAliveYT I wonder if Arya might save Jaime by mercy killing Stoneheart, like maybe not even wittingly but maybe she sees her mother kill a person without any trial and when she tries to do the same thing to jaime, Arya realizes that her family wouldn't want to be avenged in some brutal murder but in a proper manner of justice.
I feel like they’re justification of well we didn’t want to tip our hand on Jon for later is kinda weak. IIRC Lady Stonehearts appearance and Jon’s death happen around the same time so you can just wait to reveal her identity till after Jons back. We’ve already seen Beric be brought back to life at this point in the show
They did Michelle dirty saying her acting was not up to parr like wtf u legit cast her as catelyn praised her yet did not think she could play lsh
I like how this video never mentions brienne or Jamie not even once despite how pivotal lady stone heart is to these two characters.
I haven't read it anywhere but I think, jon's resurrection by melissandra didn't make much sense, to add value to it, they make melissandre doubt her faith and it doesn't feel right.
I think Lady Stoneheart solves this in the upcoming books.
Catelyn Stark archetype is a mother. A mother who couldn't love a motherless child, nor asked her husband to finally give him the house name.
She thinks that's why her house is going through all of this, cause she didn't keep her word to the gods.
Lady stoneheart is given life through Beric Dondarrion from the botherhood without banners. She'll go north and will find once again Jon Snow losing his life. Even with the heart of stone her motherness will shine through and she will give him the life and die, as it happened to Beris. (this is why the lord of light has resurrected Beris so many times, due to the importance of Jon in the war to come)
That's how she closes her arch as a mother.
She will finally accept him as one of her children. Jon Snow will be reborn, as Jon Stark. The resurrection will make sense, and will be an act of mother love, and not a random thing melissandre did.
That's why I think Martin wanted her to be in the story.
You do know that speech she gave in the show about promising to love Jon if survived is show only.
It is Nymeria, Arya's wolf, that pulls Lady Catlin's body from the water. The connection to Arya was right there at that moment.
great vid
It’s such a huge theme in ASOIAF that vengeance destroys people, as is that when the highborns go to war, it’s not them who suffer. It’s the small folk. I think Arya more than any character embodies this. I like the idea that Lady Stoneheart will massacre the Freys, and that Arya will realise that Lady Stoneheart is what she’ll end up like if she keeps going down this path. Like mother, like daughter.
I always felt really miffed with how they ruined Arya on the show, like all the trauma she went through on her journey just turned her into this stupid girlboss character who kills anyone who wronged her. There’s no acknowledgment that Arya was just an innocent girl who went down a dark path from all the trauma she went through, just like the Hound, which is why she removes him from her list because she sees he’s just the same as her, subconsciously.
You make a great point: It does feel right for Arya to give Mother Merciless (my favorite name for her) the gift. One of her identities spoiled in Braavos is Mercy! Her story is about giving people who need it the gift of death. Arya is also partly responsible for creating the Revenge Monster that is Stoneheart by pulling her body out of the river as Nymeria so she could be resurrected. There needs to be an eventual conflict between Mercy and Mother Merciless, mother and daughter.
But I do disagree that she will join Stoneheart’s band. Her being trained as a faceless assassin for the Facless Men is as big a Checkov’s gun as there is in the story: Arya has to spend much of the rest of her story as a faceless assassin serving the faceless men!
I get that David and Dan didn’t want to do her Le Femme Nakita storyline bc that meant having other actresses besides Maisie Williams play her for extended periods! That’s a practical problem for an adaptation. George Martin, on the other hand, is going to absolutely love writing Arya chapters where she plays someone else the entire time. This is exactly the kind of playful writing challenge he loves. His Mercy chapter is incredible.
There is zero change that Arya isn’t being sent back to Westeros with assignments: That’s why Jaqen recruited her. That’s why the Faceless Men are training her and keep promoting her even when she keeps messing up. Because no one else in their organization can do Westerosi accents like her! Not to mention no one else knows Kings Landing or Winterfell like her. They want an agent in King’s Landing in the Red Keep whoever is king-and news flash it’s about to be Young Griff, put their by Illyrio Mopatis.
Illyrio Mopatis is a slaver! Braavos, the Iron Bank, the Sealord of Braavos, the Faceless Men, they are all opposed to slavery. There top priority is to get an agent into Young Griff’s court to spy, to check Illyrio’s power, and to kill young Griff if necessary.
So it has to be Arya’s task to go there and steal Elia Sand’s face as Arianne Martel’s companion. Arianne looks set to marry Young Griff. Then eventually Arya has to steal Arianne’s face and become the Queen herself, fulfilling her Nymeria destiny and Ned’s prediction to her (which she discounted at the time) that she would “marry a prince.” It has to happen, there is too much foreshadowing for it not to.
Just as leaving our Lady Stoneheart wreaked havoc to many storylines-especially Jaime and Brienne, Dondarrion’s, and the Brotherhood’s-leaving out Young Griff wreaked havoc. Leaving out Young Griff wrecked Arya’s storyline in King’s Landing more than any other. But it also messed up Cersei’s, Euron’s, Dany’s, and others as well.
-Jeff H’ghar, admin of ‘Theory of Ice & Fire’ on quora
agree with most of these points, but I don't agree that Arya will kill Daenerys, Jon just has so much more narrative and story impact. However, I'm sure that Arya will have some other large part to play. Perhaps Euron
Bro just give us an animated TV series remake 😢
Good points made here, but two questions remain:
1: How does linking up with Arya affect Stoneheart? How does a howling revenant of brutal cold-blooded revenge respond when one of the things it thought it lost is restored to it? It's a genuinely creepy thought.
2: Martin always likes showing the unglamourous details of his character's lives (vid. Tywin dead on the toilet; Daenerys puking in the Dothraki Sea). So what does Stoneheart look like to Arya? How does watching the thing-that-was-once-her-mum hobbling about the camp feel like to her? Arya gets some of Martin's most effective prose, and this could be a make-or-break moment for the story just in terms of how good the writing is. No wonder winter is so late.
I agree with you that Arya will meet Stoneheart via Nymeria. I think seeing her mother as this monster will feed her hatred of both the Freys and Lannisters rather than tame it. As a faceless man she will also be afronted at this cheating of death. Martin likes to write the human heart in conflict with itself. Not a single character has had an AHA or EUREKA moment. Neither will Arya. I think she will be forced to kill her mother for good Likely in defense of Jon as I think Stoneheart will hate him more now than ever and will not let him have Robb's crown. And this will drive a wedge between Arya and Jon. I don't think Arya will interact with Dany. I think book will follow show and Sansa will be at odds with Dany.
Unfortunately none of the Starks had any emotions or heart by the end of the show. The absurdly incompetent writers thought robot= badas s
It honestly feels like the first season and the last season were written by completly diffrent people.
I must confess, I don't know much about George RR Martin's personal life. It's rare to find someone his age to be as 'switched on' to the concepts of mental health and inter-generational trauma in the way that you describe in your video. Thought provoking video, thank you.
Let’s also not forget that Brienne is likely leading Jaime to Lady Stoneheart and that it will be a critical point for him. Jaime’s outcome rests entirely on Lady Stoneheart
Great video! I have nothing to add to the conversation. Just showing appreciation :)
Lady Stoneheart is such a key part of the heart (heh heh) of the story, and I think you're absolutely right that omitting her from the show is a big red flag that the showrunners really did not get it. Personally, I don't like the idea of Arya mercy-killing Lady Stoneheart, mainly because I think it would just be heaping additional trauma on top of Arya's already immense trauma to, essentially, have to kill her own mother. I don't have a good alternate theory to how Lady Stoneheart's story will end, but I do agree that she will be a huge part of Arya's remaining storyline and their encounter will be a turning-point for Arya. Perhaps instead Lady Stoneheart will die because she chooses to pass on her fire the same way it was passed to her by Beric--something that will give Arya more healing and closure. At least that is my hope.
I just found your channel! Your great!
Like Dunk said to the red widow “it’s just some pissing game!”
Arya didn’t kill all the frey’s, she left the women to tell the story.
And presumably the kids not old enough to drink or travel all the way to the twins
The show scene where she kills all the male Freys is a bit contrived. It won't be this way in the books. It will be much more complicated, and either Arya OR Lady Stoneheart will stop at the idea of killing Edmund's wife Roslyn, this will cause the rethink.
But first Arya will hunt a lot of Freys with that giant wolfpack - she just has to!
Good video, but you forgot to mention the "Bread and salt" unwritten law because that is the reason Arya didn't suffer external consequence. She is the "external consequence"!
I think Arya is going to massacre the Frey’s, but I doubt they’ll be eliminated. There are just too many of them and all over the place.
Yeah I tend to agree, I think a lot of them will die and their House will mostly be disempowered by the end, but there's just too many of them to get rid of completely.
I think Stoneheart will reunite with Arya through Nymeria, as the Brotherhood have been searching for a Wolf of her description and Cat was the first to clock on to the importance of the Direwolves.
Also, does the book give any insight as to why Beric sacrifices him own life for her? Is it love or Rhllor said to?
the discovery of lady stoneheart alone made me want to read the books.
I’d never considered this- but Aryia/Stoneheart is an awesome idea
1:40 Yeah, I think Young Griff exclusion would be a more impressive plot and thematic change than Lady Stoneheart's, so curious to see where it's going to go.
I hope you are correct in much of this... but I also admire your belief that the book series will EVER be finished. Heck, right now most of us wouldn't put good odds on the next BOOK ever coming out. :(
My bet is that the scene with the 3 phrase is Aria and then the former lady start is the one behind the mass killing. I would also suspect that turns Aria against her own mother and causes her to end the revinant.
Oh I hope you are right
I also thing lady stone heart might be an example of how Jon snow can go pure revenge seeking when he is brought back
What do you mean Lady Stoneheart is _sometimes_ with the Brotherhood Without Banners? I thought LSH was now leading the Brotherhood in place of Beric.
Is this really what the showrunners said about the exclusion? "We don't want to spoil Jon's resurrection"? Uhm, you guys included Beric who was literally resurrected on screen l o l
D&D aren't completely wrong that the Lady Stoneheart plot would have likely spoiled Jon's resurrection, buuuuut 1) most viewers never believed he was actually dead anyway so it didn't really matter in the end and 2) it would have made Jon's transformation a lot more dramatic and interesting to have Catelyn as a foil. Not just for their differences (Jon does not come back as a wrathful wraith) but also their similarities. Jon post resurrection is not the same person, he is sort of a shell of his former self and he seems even more burdened with life and his sense of duty than before. But this doesn't translate well on the show, for many reasons.
the night that arya kills that guard was also what really set the diff and made me hate the show more. that guard in harrenhal was offered a coin, she drops it, and slit his throat, and watches him die and attempt to scream through his bloodfilled throat. everything about that description implies deep down arya is fully observing and aware of the violence she just inflicted, and is on the verge of being horrified, but not quite, bc she's seen this all too often. so instead she's numb to the horror she inflicted. its a part of her life now. its her new normal. and the description screams about how terrifying that is, especially for a child. violence from trauma. you captured it perfectly here, n def relayed what a lot of people felt watching her house of black and white arc get butchered
I freaking adore Lady Stoneheart
I just hope it doesn’t turn into a Truman Capote situation where he dies before the series near the end
Example
Truman Capote & Unanswered Prayers
Arya killing Daenerys, “the ‘Prince’ that was promised”, with the Valyrian dagger that was passed down along with the Prince that was promised prophecy would be quite the irony.
I think Catelyn stays away from her children because she doesn’t want them to see the monster she has become. She’d rather their memories of her remain unscathed.
On the Arya and Daenerys point I just re-read ACOK and their inverse-mirror is clear in there. Arya is in the conflict seeing how horrible it is and living the actual situation of Westeros while Daenerys sits in Quarth fantasizing about the wrath she’ll bring to it oblivious to how people there live. Arya will be converted to an agent of justice by her on the ground experiences while Daenerys will sit and order the deaths of thousands thinking she is a just one. I can see Arya killing Daenerys as a feasible possibility with this in mind.
B&W just clearly didn't understand the characters, their arcs, or even the ASOIAF universe itself. They were show runners, making an HBO show with carte blanche for the levels of sex and violence they could include, and used it not to expose something about the characters or some moral lesson like ASOIAF does, but to draw an audience and generate publicity. I like this theory. On some level, I did and do think that within the truncated arcs of the show, Arya training to be one of the most deadly assassins- not a fighter, knight, or warrior but an assassin specifically- makes sense for her final big act to be to kill the NK. And also for her to go exploring west of Westeros, since she idolized the legendary Queen Nymeria so much (though- why couldn't they have just had Gendry go with her? Would have been a cute nod/Easter egg to the Baratheons that got lost at sea.) But in the books with a fully realized arc, Arya has to come to the conclusion that her list and crossing it off is not going to bring her family back. It's not going to bring her satisfaction or pride or whatever else she's been telling herself it will to make it through her brutal training. And I think her reunion and temporary collaboration with Lady Stoneheart will be a visceral lesson in that reunification with what she has lost would only bring perverse pain and keep her locked into her past, constantly retraumatizing herself. She is a child soldier, as they exist in ASOIAF. Though as a Daenerys fan I don't want her to become a Big Bad, if she does, Arya killing her in an act of justice for the living, rather than vengeance for the dead would be a good way for her to complete her circle, so to speak, and then hopefully move on- maybe even by becoming some version of a lady, like she always thought she didn't want. Maybe she and Gendry will go sailing after all.
lady stoneheart vs a ressurrected jon snow idealistic Jon will also change a lot
Time to remake got and bring lady stone heart
Arya will learn the truth about "Littlefinger's bastard daughter".
Arya will make sure that Stoneheart knows.
personally Arya destroying the Frey is my favorite and most satisfying moment of the show.We cannot put our modern morals into a fantasy show based on a time of our history where vengeance was the norm and was expected.but i agry that lady stoneheart not being in the show was a big mistake and probably changed Arya story line a lot.
While that is true it does also set the bar of morality low for everyone, for example you can't exactly call Dany/Theon/Ellaria/ect a bad person because of their actions while also glorifying Arya a for her actions. Readers expect consistancy and when one character is held to a diffrent level of morality than another it just undermines a lot of the characters and their stories.
It’s a shame that we will probably never find out
Only Arya can release the spirit of the mother who wanted her to be a girly girl. and she will realize she loved her mother and did not know it. It's going to be heartbreaking.
Of course they all have PTSD. As much as we try to do better bc we know better nobody is a perfect parent or child.
The Hound is now a repentant monk.
Fantastically done.
Not to overstep bounds or step on toes, but I'm working on a bit of a Littlelfinger youtube project atm myself, if you'd be inclined to grace me with a discussion I would be most grateful. I'm very curious to hear your thoughts and analysis on Littlefinger both as to where the character is going but also as to what his narrative place is in the tale.
No hard feelings either way but if you feel like a palavering about the ol' Baelish drop me a line or message or greendream or what have you.
As always I am in admiration of your great videos!
I just watched your first two videos about him and I'm totes down!
My day is made!
I can't figure out if youtube has a messaging system (confused on that...)
But I have a discord account RandomInternetGuy#4571, so feel free to message me there. Or let me know the best way to get at you and I'll make it work!
@@randominternetguyoffical Rad, I just sent you a friend request.
Lady Stoneheart is the body manifest of the Old God's as associated with the rules of hearth. This is to contrast the power of The New God. Please note, Lady was even punishing anyone who helped the Lanister's, even the ones she had oath bound. Arya will be leaving Lady alone. I believe Lady will eventually make her way to Winterfell crypts and pass her power to another or be the Mother of the First Children rebirth. Just my 2 cents.
Arya killing the Freys' one of the many things I don't like about the show, it misses Arya's morality, she doesn't just kill out hatred, there's a duty about it that she feels (much like all the Starks) you are not allowed to desert the Wall for instance. Or you'll die, I believe it's why she was chosen and also why she'll be released (under supervision) because the faceless man know all that happens in Westeros and as of the fifth book I believe they know what's going to happen in the north
I think your pretty spot on till you get to Dany. I don’t see Arya being the one. My hope is that Dany does it kind of herself after realizing the innocence she’s done damage to
this also makes sense about why catelyn was resurrected at first place.
Yes 👍
It's actually amazing how much they made me hate Arya by the end, I used to love the character but they took a conflicted anti-hero character and turned her into a smug murder machine.
As much as we all love the storylines they will remain unfinished.
Perfect
A big problem with the show later on is how shrunken the main cast of characters became, they both cut and unnecessarily killed so many. I can’t think of a single important character introduced after season 5, and I can’t remember a single well written important character being introduced DURING season 5 either. Not to mention the dozen or so characters that dropped off the face of the earth after season 4.
They spent half the show widdeling down the cast until the pieces of the puzzle necessary to finish the picture didn’t exist. I truly think D and D deluded themselves into thinking that the success of the show was because of themselves, and not despite themselves. So they thought they knew what storylines to cut as opposed to listening to George.
I do wonder how much will Arya absorb of the ideology/faith of the faceless men. Should she become convinced by them (likely as a pre-teen/teen mind is quite easy to brainwash), how will she react to her mother losing the gift of death?
Around the time Lady Stoneheart should've entered the story but didn't is when I lost interest in the show and eventually dropped it. I'm not a huge GOT fan, I haven't even read all the books, but I knew just enough to see that their choice to cut her was a big mistake. Combined with the other strange adaptional choices they were making at the time I wasn't surprised when everything went to shit in the following seasons.
I stopped liking Arya after she became an assassin. They turned her into a total Mary Sue and she had no more character development. She became every cringy, feminist, fan fic writer's wet dream.
They fell for the old Violent Female Character=Strong Female Character trap.
These theories are spot fucking on
All of these people have PTSD.