Jeyne isn’t a commoner. She got a last name. Something commoners don’t have in Westeros. She’s nobility. Minor noble but a noble non the less. Something she got in common with Petyr.
Very true. Many people forget that evert steward of a castle is usually a noble as well just more minor nobility than who they serve usually. House Poole has it's own page on A Song of Ice and Fire wiki but we only really know about Jeyne and her father.
Yes, although she’s only the daughter of a steward if I’m not mistaken. Definitely better than just a commoner to be sure, but the house effectively lost all relevance politically after winterfell was burned.
I agree. Remember the Tyrels were the Stewarts of High Garden when their Lords House Gardener died on the Field of Fire. Now House Tyrel rules Highgarden. So the Pooles are important minor nobility
I think you can have a family name and therefore a 'house' but if you don't have at least an honorary title I'm pretty sure you're still common? I think the Cassels are the same way? I could be totally wrong though
I once read an argument that Sansa actually doesn't consider Jeyne a close friend because of their minor differences in status and that she doesn''t mention her "often", which is ridiculous because they are so important to each other! Yeah, GOT completely screwed Jeyne over, but something I think about often is one of the only times we see her on screen, wiping Sansa's face after Arya throws food at her. It's just a single shot, but THAT'S Jeyne and Sansa, especially in the books. Two traditionally feminine girls treated like pawns by the people around them, they deserve a soft ending (Jeyne lady-in-waiting to Queen Sansa? I can only dream!)
That is so odd, I mean I know people tend to not view Sansa kindly but she literally calls Jeyne her truest friend or something like that, clearly she cares. And honestly I lowkey dream for Sansa to eliminate the Boltons and make Jeyne the Lady of the Dreadfort.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah honestly I think it stems from the general Sansa hate (especially in combination with the opinion that Arya is better than she is), which is so unfortunate because the story of Sansa and Jeyne is so touching, so sweet, and has such potential. You touched on Sansa's negative view in the fandom in another video (excellently, if I may add!), and it remains so important to continue to acknowledge it and how it affects other characters as well (to their detriment). Also where's the petition to sign to take everything away from the Boltons and give it to Jeyne? That's perfect!
@@ladylady LOL well I mean technically... if all the Boltons die and Jeyne survives, she legally inherits their estate anyway, right? She is literally "Lady Bolton" now.
I don’t think people understand how Sansa mentally deals with her trauma by compartmentalizing a lot of the awful things that happen to her and rewriting her own memory of certain events.
@@HillsAliveYT You are right. It would be like Barbrey Ryswell and how she ruled Barrowton as Lady Dustin and Willem Dustin's widow even though she has no claim by blood. So Jeyne ending up as the Lady of the Dreadfort and ruler of all those lands is plausible.
I really like when people understand that Jeyne is important, bc I feel like one of the major themes in the novels is “everyone is important”, which is easily overlooked considering where they usually focus (it’s on the main characters). I was just having this argument, mostly with myself, about how that’s the main point of the Giver, too, not that the main character succeeds or fails, just that he finds value in other human beings. And I feel like Jeyne and Sansa’s relationship will embody that theme, too, that everyone has value, everyone is important. I think they’ll be a strong friendship for years to come, because they know that everyone is important.
Yeah I definitely agree, I mean Jeyne obviously has value beyond taking Littlefinger, but I love that GRRM set them up to seemingly be two sides of the same coin in that they both represent the best and worst of what can happen when powerful people forget that even the “nobodies” have power.
@@HillsAliveYT I feel like Jeyne being a little girl(to me, lol, bc I am very old) is also a major factor here. Baelish seems to have made a lot of his fortune exploiting people like her. So that makes her taking him down even better.
“everyone is important” is the obvious and necessary counterpoint to "everyone is expendable". Stories consist of actions and actions need actors and if you cannot rely on a "main actor" staying alive through the story, relevant actions need to possibly have actors that are not "main".
I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that Theon thought Jeyne was worth rescuing for humanitarian reasons. My recollection was that Theon pitied Jeyne ... but was just as worried that someone would find that she wasnt the real Arya. When Mance and the spearwives come to save Arya, Theon is almost forced to go along with it. Theon goes along with it because it promises his escape, as much as he cares for Jeyne .His care for Jeyne is not a motivating factor here, perhaps a teeny bit, as he pities a fellow victim of Ramsay.
Pretty much. The spearwives find him in the godswood and take him to Mance. When Stannis arrives and Bolton sends out the Freys, the spearwives make their attempt and Theon is dragged along as their key to Arya. He knows it's suicide, but he also knows the spearwives will kill him and find another way if it really comes down to it.
I interpreted it a little differently. I genuinely felt he took responsibility for her well being. He desperately didn't want her to end up like him and was willing to die with her before she ended up in Ramsay's custody again. Theon's pov kept repeating themes about the dogs that were named after the hunts, the wedding night stuff. When she was reluctant to leave during the escape he said in his mind "I'm Theon" and to her "I know you, I know who you are." as like a code between the two of them. Maybe I am reading deeply into it but those are loaded words coming from "Reek" to "Arya Stark". Basically he knew who Jeyne was, he knew himself and he wasn't going to let her be Ramsay's toy if there was a shot. Yeah Theon was threatened to do it but he and Jeyne have been severely abused. When even remembering your name is an act of bravery, rescuing and escaping is as worthy of a song as any deed from the Age of Heroes. Good thing there was a singer nearby.
The way he keeps repeating "I saved her, I saved her" later when he's Stannis' prisoner makes me think the act of saving Jeyne was about saving himself too, he regained a sense of self or self respect and started on redeeming himself by being brave and doing somethig good that isn't purely self serving like he used to be. He's taking a huge step away from Ramsey instead of accepting his fate and remaining broken.
This was the breaking point in the show for me. I managed to rationalize the omission of Lady Stoneheart and even the Tysha Confession from Jaime to Tyrion, but this storyline is where the show just lost me completely. Interchanging Jeyne with Sansa, as if it made ANY sense (not even getting into the whole ‘their kinda similar women so they can just be interchanged’ thing) completely derailed the story for me. I love a good villain in the story, and I forgave the removal of Tyrion as a villainous character, but Littlefinger? Man I was so looking forward to seeing just how he would fall prey to the very thing that rose him to power in the first place, the overlooking and disregard that people in this society have for those they deem irrelevant. It’s rather poetic, really. But instead we got Sansa shoehorned into Jeynes plot for the sole purpose of shock value and, I suspect, because the show runners had no faith that the audience would care about anyone who isn’t a main character. Which is ironic and disturbing on many different levels considering the themes of Littlefingers story of power and perception. Fantastic video! I’m glad you addressed all of this as this was the departure point for me in the show, the final straw in my eyes.
Yeah, I obviously watched the show to the end, but the intense reaction to the flop ending has always thrown me off because for me too this was kind of the "breaking point," not in the sense that I quit the series because of it but because I recognized what kind of storytelling I should be expecting going forward so two bad final seasons were not remotely off-brand for GoT to me.
@@HillsAliveYT Same here, I forgave smaller changes in the adaptation in the earlier seasons, but they just got to the point where I lost all faith in their ability to tell this story properly. Especially what happened with Dorne in addition to what you’ve addressed, probably the most interesting kingdom as a whole in my opinion because of its history and differences to the other kingdoms social structures. I really enjoy your videos since I myself cannot relate to the “season 8 ruined everything” sentiment as the signs were there much earlier and you address them perfectly. Keep on making these videos please! It’s my “see? I’m not crazy” outlet for myself.
OH MY GOD YES don't even get me started on the bizarrely racist presentation of Dorne that like, isn't much of a discussion point with anyone? That's definitely a topic I'm going to dive deeper into but the fact that they made their only non-white-coded Westerosi people hyper-sexual and hyper-violent (which reads very spicy/sexy Latin stereotypes to me) when that is not book canon AT ALL drives me bonkers.
@@HillsAliveYT That really disturbed me. Dorne is not only interesting as a society, but also has some SERIOUS character superstars and plot-related intrigue. All the many schemes of Doran, the Sarella and Arianne and Quentyn storylines, the pivotal role that this kingdom and these people have in the story at large is some of the most interesting dynamics that this series has in my opinion. And all those interesting plots and stories and characters were swapped for some cheap stereotypes??? What? It just makes no sense. This is the kingdom that resisted Aegon, that forced the Targaryens to come to the table on their terms, that have probably the most forward-thinking ideals in all of Westeros… and we get backward stereotypes instead just to toss them out when they’re done serving the story. The irony is too great, it’s truly something else. If they had kept the Dorne storyline similar to the books I could’ve forgiven nearly anything else. They could change Euron, screw up Daenerys’s downfalll, had Jaime do whatever. But Dorne’s storyline and everything relating to it is just too good to throw away like this. Some of the best material to be able to translate to the small screen! So many good characters to follow and plot threads to get lost in and intrigues to weave with.
THANK YOU for highlighting Jeyne Poole. I kinda thought she'd end the series as 'Lady Arya' (the real Arya won't likely retake her place as a highborn lady), and rule the north with Sansa as sisters and BFFs. I also thought she'd be the catalyst to turn Sansa against LF, and the pair would defeat him together, kinda like how the death of LF was a Stark family affair in the show, but with just Jeyne and Sansa against LF, and with actually competent storytelling.
I always thought Arya’s entire story was about her reclaiming her identity and her name after going so long having to deny it. I can’t see Arya ending her story as anyone else but Arya Stark.
@@sugarpearl9781 I have no idea how Arya's story will end, tbh, especially since the show handled her arc so poorly. She's becoming so much of a villain that it'll be hard for her to claw her way out. But whether she ends the series as Arya Stark or not, im pretty certain she won't live as a highborn, socially conforming lady. She may return to Winterfell, reconnect with her surviving family, but in the eyes of the other lords and especially the histories, im pretty sure Jeyne Poole will be Arya Stark.
This is quite an interesting theory seeing as Arya does go to Braavos and has the opportunity for someone to take over as her and she be able to do what ever she wants. Sounds much more plausible than: kill the Freys, sleep with Gendry, kill the Knight King, what's west of Westeros? (Wow, Game of Thrones became Game of Whiplash, am I right?) A Song of Ice and Fire had the set up for a reason. George has a reason for doing this. Anyway, great theory! I had never heard this one and hadn't thought of it myself! I watch so many theory videos it genuinely surprises me when I haven't heard a theory before. lol
She really is another fine example of how D&D either didn't understand the story that GRRM is telling, or just didn't care. I sometimes wonder if they ever even bothered to read the books, or just had an assistant do it and give them a synopsis of the exciting bits. Personal theory about Baelish. I can't help wonder if, like Tywin, he is more show than substance, and is really just a small-time grifter who takes advantage of opportunities when they arise, rather than having any sort of plan. This would account for Varys having no idea what Littlefinger's plan is.
Personally im convinced they read the first book, unconvinced they read any of the others. I think your assistants reading and summarizing is basically what occurred. The Sansa story arc was imo, is just a barely veiled writrer rape-fanfic... Littlefinger I feel is a master plotter in many ways, maybe the most masterful. I think his improv is sub-par compared to say Varys tho. For example once he goes off plan and kills Lysa he almost immediately is surrounded by enemy agents like the Mad Mouse.. So I think we're watching him stumble blindly currently to a degree, while trying to bring things back to base (grain schemes and such)
@@randominternetguyoffical yooo, first, I love ur vids, also ppl are very harsh on d&d on stuff that makes sense with context. They were making a show, not a book series. In the show jeyne had never been mentioned bc there was no need to. It would feel a bit contrived if all of a sudden they said “oh btw, we have Sansa’s best friend that you’ve never heard of, she’s now part of the plot” I love the books but d&d were left with 3 chapters after season 4. It was a bad decision but one I don’t blame them personally for
@@aripeters2412 Thank you! Really glad you enjoy my inane ramblings. Im very critical of dnd where that scene is concerned because its so unneeded and forced in there. I completely understand the swapping out of characters if its a writing issue, however the rape did nothing for the characters, plot, theme or anything. It just exists taking up film time and leaving viewers with horrible hot takes. (there's a whole rant in here about how swaths of the fandom are comfortable with titanic retconning of things to include rapes but not cool to allow a Black dude to play a minor character in a spinoff... but that's a rant for another time, that slso includes a writers obligation to the evolution of fandom segment and such) I take issue with the way it was hamfisted in rather than the idea that Sansa and Jayne's characters would have to share some overlap in a tv adaption. All that said the book was intentionally written in a tv script style by GRRM who was a pro tv writer for several years so I'm rather unreceptive to any argument that changes from book to show were required at all. damn, this tea is strong, you got a full coffee rant outta me lol
@@aripeters2412 I certainly agree, but they coulda cut the whole concept in favor or something different entirely. I think they had a lot of options and went with the worst one for personal and shock value reasons. Which sucks and to me degrades the end product a great deal. I have a lot of complaints about what I've seen in the show and like 90% of the have to do with writing choices so at least for me that's the weak link in the whole thing.
In defense of the show-runners... Dance wasn't released when they were doing season 1, and even if grrm told then that Jeyne would be an important character in Dance, they probably hadn't read the novel and couldn't have known how well a Sansa replacement wouldn't work. Then again, why didn't they add her back in season 2? One quick scene about "this is Jeyne, she was one of Lord Eddard's servants" and she's handed over to LF. Then she spends the next few seasons as a side character in the Ros storyline. It might've worked really well to have the juxtaposition of LF being nice to Sansa, then ordering Jeyne whipped for disobedience in the next scene. Maybe have Ros be a protective/motherly figure for Jeyne, so when she's killed off, Jeyne would leap at the opportunity to be Arya and leave the brothel... and then the audience, knowing Ramsay, is fed a gut punch of dramatic irony. Why didn't the show do this???
Honestly, given that Sansa's marriage to Ramsay was one of the only things GRRM ever openly and firmly disagreed with regarding the show, I have a very hard time believing that he didn't say anything about it to D&D before publicly saying that in his world that whole storyline would never happen.
@@HillsAliveYT The only other reason I can think of that the showrunners would've made Jeyne-Sansa substitution is that they didn't want to adapt the Alayne Feast storyline. To be fair, they don't have too much material as Alayne is definitely a minor character for the moment, and the story is pretty boring if you're not interested in the subtle scheming of the Vale nobility, which the showrunners clearly weren't. Book-Sansa starts out significantly more naive than show-Sansa - maybe they thought they could forego this this whole subplot and streamline things to put Sansa back in Winterfell and do fewer seasons? (BIG miscalculation)... i would say it all comes down to a lack of care for Sansa specifically as a character, but they were doing some similar things (albeit mostly less egregiously) to most other plotlines around the same time (where's Taena, Aurane, Stoneheart, the Green Grace, the Blackwoods and the Brackens, Illyrio, Rodrik the Reader, Arianne, Quentyn, Victarion?)
@@HillsAliveYT I understand GRRM disagreeing with it but D&D had good reason to combine Sansa and Jeyne. It gives Sophie something to do as an actress, and it gives the audience someone to care about rather than a character who we never build up.
Agreed with this video so much! Little finger giving Sansa to Ramsay made no sense in the show, especially considering he wants her for himself as he sees her as an extension of her mother. I honestly thought they were setting up Ros (I wish they called her Kyra tbh) to be a fake Sansa instead and I really think it would have worked with Jeyne's absence. Whilst they both have red hair, Ros' two important relationships in the show is with Theon and Littlefinger, both of which were set up in Series 1. Theon and Ros only use each other for their own sexual gratification and he sees her as a plaything while she sees him as a immature little boy. Imagine seeing that relationship actually develop and have them bond over Ramsay's horrendous treatment of them, pushing Show Theon to become a better man like Jeyne did for Book Theon. As for Littlefinger, Ros was very high up in his brothel, so it would be no small feat to assume she would have information that Sansa could use to destroy Littlefinger, which is what Varys recruited her for. Plus Littlefinger discovering her betrayal was a perfect reason to give her to Ramsay, not just because of her being Northern, living near Winterfell and having a resemblance to Sansa, but it would have been the perfect punishment. Honestly imo, the setup was there and near perfect and I'm very surprised D&D didn't take it. I think them cutting out Jeyne and killing Ros in Series 3 was an early warning sign that they didn't really know what they were doing.
I love the idea, though it might be a bit ridiculous idk, of Brienne finally finding Sansa and Sansa asking for Oathkeeper to behead Littlefinger. If she passes the sentence she must swing the sword as her father said and it'd be a nice callback to her mother asking for Briennes sword too
And what I like is that they are actually empathetic. We have multiple examples of characters like Sansa and Jon not realizing how privileged they are, but when they are confronted with it they actually change their behavior, which is rare in their world.
not too sure i agree with your assessment of the Starks. Granted, they're not complete jerks like Cersei and Tywin...but they still wage a war that gets their own people killed in droves. Not their intention, but an inevitable consequence of their actions, and at some point the results gotta speak for themselves. I can think of no smallfolk who've had it worse (excluding the people of Astapor) than those whose lords swore to King Robb. For pro-smallfolk lords, look no further than Doran Martell. He avoids joining the war because of the toll it will have on the smallfolk. Rhoynish law seems to include a basic social safety net. And because his true plans and goals are so obscured, he's a fun character to riddle about. that's why he's my favorite.
I like your theory, and it brings poetic justice to Littlefinger, something GRRM loves. I have had for a long time a theory that Sansa would have a some sort of Stockholm Syndrome for Petyr Baelish. I like this theory since her knowing what happened to Jeyne Poole can trigger an action from her part.
Interesting! I hadn’t thought of Jeyne as Littlefinger’s foil but you made a compelling case. Same as Petyr manages to tilt people in the brink of ethical decisions towards evil, Jeyne has tilted Theon towards good.
It may be depressing that a highborn needs to like or love you for you to rise in power (as in Pride and Prejudice). BUT, it is one way that the lower classes can distinguish themselves. Sansa loves Jeyne because she was a Good friend. Darcy loves Elizabeth Bennet because she has a unique sharp mind and drive toward integrity. This was the social mobility of the feudal world. Prove your worth to a lord or lady, just by being your virtuous self, and a lord or lady who is not mired in corruption may see and value that integrity. Good and talented People Can Always Have HOPE that their virtues and abilities will be noticed. So long as there are decent nobles to see it. When hypocrisy and vice reigns, then there is no hope for the good. But wherever virtue and talent are valued, social mobility is possible. Now we dn't need nobles to notice and value us. We can show our virtues to the world without their patronage, though it is never easy.
At least for now I think Jeyne is to damaged to take down LF or even Ramsay; But if Sansa does meet up with her in the north I can see Sansa taking her in and the girls rebond and then maybe get to that point. Right now my odds on Jeyne surviving is 40 Yes- 60 No.
Masterfully done! Great ending line as well (among many!) Jayne is the true key to the North and to Littlefingers demise. Im on my second listen rn while I brew up the morning tea 🍵
Yes it was indeed disgusting that the show had Sansa being thrown to the Boltons. Also shows how lame the show runners are for expecting us to believe that she wouldn't tell Jon to castrate him after that, and let him creep around Winterfell. GTFO 🙄
Should there be some comeuppance for Jaime and Brienne here? Doesn't Jaime tell Brienne not to rescue the Bolton's "Arya Stark" because she's a fake? Well shame on them - she was just in desperate need of rescue as she would have been had she been the real Arya Stark.
I think Justin Massey will get to Castle Black, find things there to be untenable and unsafe for "Lady Arya" and just take her with him to Bravos. No question he'd have eyes on being nice to her, making sure she is fed and clothed well, her wounds and anxiety treated as far as Westerosi care can go - with an eye to perhaps marrying her should Stannis win and the Boltons be wiped out. He has openly been looking for such an opportunity, and Stannis did suggest a Lordship might be something he'd favor if Massey was successful. He is charming and handsome and after years of torture and slavery, Jayne might find solace in a gentle spoken nobleman who doesn't treat her like shit. So they arrive in Bravos and Arya, engaged in her continued training, will hear of a ship from Westeros arriving (somehow, waves magical "and things work out" hands), and that the last surviving known Stark - herself!! is supposedly with them. And she will recognize Jayne of course. And that will be the trigger for her to seek a break from the Faceless Men to go back to Winterfell and claim it as the real Arya. This will free Jayne to regain her own name and possibly some agency as well. As pointed out here, she is a vital key to getting Baelish, telling the entire story of what happened in the Red Keep. In addition to that, Arya "the women are important too" would be horrified and infuriated upon hearing of Jayne's treatment and want to protect or save or defend her for her own sake, as Jayne.
I loved the video. And as a fan of a Song of Ice and Fire I know by now that George RR Martin never makes, or creates a characther or a situation, by accident. Every single character, event or minimun detail is there for a reason. And it was presumption of the series writters to have made such change in the story.
I think you're on to something. This is exactly the sort of thing GRRM would do and it would be poetic justice. The parallel between Littlefinger and Jeyne holds because both of them were the victims of sexual abuse although I know some people will say that men cannot be abused or some such nonsense.
I assumed that Jane poole would make her way over to Bravas as she is currently travelling with the Bravosi banker and won’t find Jon alive at the wall. I think that she’s more likely to be part of the Arya story.
Doesn't Sansa secretly hate Littlefinger already, even before knowing about Jeyne's fate? It seems to me she is currently enjoying his protection because she has nowhere to go, but at some point she will turn on him, whether she meets Jeyne again or not.
I'm hoping that Jeyne is going to be like Janine in the Handmaid's Tale. Slowly galvanized against her abusers until she is in the position to take them down without mercy
The biggest difficulty I see with this theory is how Jeyne and Sansa would end up together again. Jeyne is presumably going to head for the wall. Assuming Jon comes back as expected and cares enough to keep her safe (doubtful based on how much of a person is lost when they come back, and also, imo its iffy that he'd care that much anyway), he has no idea where Sansa is, so he can't reunite them. Iirc, last we heard, Littlefinger is planning to keep Sansa in the Eyrie to marry Robert Arryn's heir and there's no indication Sansa has a reason to head north. So unless Jon comes back, writes to Robert and says "hey sort-of-cousin, I want the nights watch to go to war with the Boltons to get back at them for torturing a girl they pretended was my half sister. Can you come help?" And for some reason Sansa completely breaks tradition and goes along for the war, there's no reason to expect they'll meet up any time soon.
Well done. 👏 👏 👏! I’m convinced. I think they definitely missed an opportunity with Jane Poole. Not to minimize Sansa’s suffering but Jane’s would’ve been the more powerful story imo.
Is just a random thought, but what if Arya does manages to get back to Westeros, but instead of revealing her real identity she decides to change Jeyne Poole´s face to make her look like herself? In that way she could still working on her revenge arc while Jeyne gets a chance to a "better life" since once the entire conflict is over, even if they pardon her for faking her identity, she doesn´t have anything else in the world. No family, no home, you could say the Starks could help her to some degree, but they cannot do much for a girl from a mysoginist society where rape victims are seeing as less than dirt, specially from those of low status. At least with the title as a fake Stark she gets some degree of protection once she is out of Ramsay Bolton´s hands. Another alternative would be becoming a silent sister, so she could get away with mistreatment from men after the horrible experiences she had while making it easier to keep the secret of her real identity.
Really good video. I had always thought that Euron would be the one to undo Littlefinger. Littlefinger creates all this chaos in order to raise his station and presumably become king. In doing so he creates the environment necessary for a creature like Euron to rise. And Euron is probably the only character in the series who can look at Littlefinger's machinations and say something like "Your ambitions are too petty, why be a King when you can be God?"
Jeyne Pool, I didn't forget her, mostly because I thought it was very against Women and their representation in the Entertainment-Industry that she was replaced with Sansa in the Show. Because switching one female Character for another isn't the right thing to do, even for financial Purposes. Especially when we could have had a Friendship between two Female Characters on the small screen. But knowing d&d, they would not be the 2 Minds to show that. Honestly, when I heard that Sansa would get the Jeyne Pool Plot, I wondered if they would have done that when one of their wives or Daughters had played that role. Given the fact that their Wives were too old and the Daughters to young, the comparison is lacking, but the question stands if the Role would have been played by a Person they care deeply for, they most likely would not switch Jeyne and Sansa. As for Jeyne's Role, I think she will survive and she will get her own Castle and Lands from Sansa and/or Jon. Most likely the Castle and Lands of the Boltons. If the Story proceeds as I think, the Battle for Winterfell will take place during Sansa's escape to the Wall. We are talking about at least between 2-3 Armies who are marching in very high Snow. So we can't expect the Battle to be over in one Chapter. During the Preview Chapters, we received so far it seems Stannis did send Jeyne to the Wall because he thinks she is Arya Stark. So with the current weather Conditions and the Chapters we know so far, I think Jeyne arrives first at the Wall, shortly after her it is Davos with Rikkon (mostly because the Weather and the tricky Waters around Skaggos) and at last Sansa (mostly because she has the longest Journey) Jon's Ressurection will take place before Davos arrives because otherwise Shireen wouldn't be sacrificed and we know for a fact that Shireen will be sacrificed to the Lord of Light because it was one of the Plot points GRRM told d&d. I am unsure but I think Jeyne will arrive shortly after Jons's resurrection and he will know that she isn't Arya, although I don't think he knows who she is. Jeyne will continue her Masquerade until Sansa arrives because she knows who she is. There the 2 girls will exchange what happened to them and will plot to bring down Littlefinger. In Order to get Sansa back, Littlefinger will most likely march against the Boltons with the Knights of the Vale. And in the End these 2 Girls will bring him down.
Jeyne Poole is easily the most tragic character whose has suffered the most in all of A Song of Ice and Fire. What Ramsay does to her literally disturbed me on a spiritual level. It made my stomach churn and still scars me to this day. Bravo GRRM for such masterful writing. Hope to God Winds of Winter comes out soon! I need to know what happens to Jeyne Poole! She is one of my most favorite characters!
I’m a big believer in the idea that the Ashford Meadow Tourney theory and Sansa’s foil dynamics with Cersei and Daenerys can be fulfilled by Sansa marrying Young Griff. Young Griff will be squaring off with both Cersei and Daenerys. Him and Sansa being married is really the best way to move the story forward. Sansa and Young Griff are paralleled to one another and have a lot in common, and the two of them meeting opens up an epic Littlefinger-Varys confrontation. It’s also clearly a very powerful marriage for Young Griff to seek out- he can be betrothed to Arianne and then set her aside for Sansa, a more powerful alliance (characterizing him even more as dutiful)- and it would be a sad repeat of Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna. And because JonCon’s days are numbered and Martin definitely has other plans for Arianne (her story is more tied to her father and Dorne), it would give us a long term connection to Young Griff, as he’d be very close to a major POV character. Above all, it would be beautifully ironic and sad for Sansa to finally marry a man who she would have once dreamed of after all of her suffering and trauma, only for Dany to come in and ruin it. It makes sense because Petyr may WANT it to happen. Stannis taking the North and Rickon being (temporarily) planted will take away the opportunity for Sansa to claim it (if that’s even what Petyr wants). When he hears that Aegon is invading, but that Quentyn is in Meereen, he may feel that Sansa marring Aegon can get him right in the middle of the oncoming Targaryen conflict. Or maybe he will have Sansa marry Aegon just to ensure the Targaryen conflict happens. Furthermore, it is still a means for Sansa to have Littlefinger killed, as what major action could Young Griff take that possibly earns him more momentum as the good guy- in the eyes of the reader and the people of Westeros- than executing the man who has caused so much chaos.
Agree with most of your conclusions but I do not see how Jeyne and Sansa reunite and Jeyne will help bring down the Boltons not LF. Jeyne is on her way to the wall. Jon will most likely be resurrected . He will know she is not Arya and call out the Boltons as frauds. The Lords of the North will care more about how they were defrauded than what happened to the poor girl even a minor noble. It will give the Lords a valid pretext to rise against the Boltons. Meanwhile Sansa will bring down LF through the Harry the Heir fiasco.
Yes, Littlefinger is the one who had Jeyne in the interim between when Sansa last saw her and she was given to Ramsay, and he appears to have abused her pretty badly.
Also Jayne Poole was whipped across her back, sometime in Littlefingers care. Reek/ Theon notes this when he is forced to strip her for Ramsay on their wedding night.
I don't find using what you have ;beauty , intellect , sexual allure etc. And manipulate and take revenge on those who used you , hurt you or worse. It is AFTER what you do with the power you now possess is what matters.
I would think that Arya's life was one of the most important in the entire story, given that she kills the Night King, in the show, at least. I don't know if that will be true in the book, however.
One big mistake: Sansa ALREADY knows that Littlefinger took Jeyne away after the massacre. It happened in one of her POV chapters in AGOT after all. For some reason however, she never reminisces about Jeyne in AFFC.... Worst case scenario: George 'kinda forgot'....
Sansa barely reminisces about anything at all , except for her horrible days in the King's Landing, Ned's death . She is dissociating HARD , making up scenes in her head like she believes that she kissed the Hound etc . But she does think about Jeyne sometimes... When Myranda appears, her memory of Jeyne kinda comes to play and she thinks how long has it been since she was engaging in silly gossips with Jeyne etc.. But none of it probably matters , given that the books won't be finished.
This video is almost entirely word salad. Not a single thing of substance was said here beyond some platitudes about how Jeyne Poole might be important, somehow. Theon helps Jeyne because Mance promises to get Theon out of Winterfell and away from Ramsay. How the hell does this translate into Theon recognizing that Jeyne is worth helping, despite her low stature in the feudal hierarchy?
"Jeyne will not become Petyr..." How do you know? The books barely reflect upon her character beyond her torment experience. And the fact that she used to be Sansa's BFF as well as Arya's childhood bully.
Good points about Jeyne. She’s one of those children characters like Mycah killed because Robert didn’t want to argue with his wife, or the dozens of underage age girls Robert slept with, that people just forget about they like Robert or are only interested in kids whose last name is Stark. At least some people feel bad for Jeyne bc Littlefinger and Ramsay are hated, but it seems like no one except Dany fans care about Mycah or all of Robert’s underage sexual victims. Or for that matter that Jon Arryn and Robert brought Littlefinger to King’s Landing and let him expand underaged prostitution and build his empire there, and rewarded him for it by making him Master of Coin. It’s Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn and Lisa Tully who are all to blame to for what happens to Jeyne. The treasury was overflowing when the Targaryen’s were in power, expenses were controlled, and the King relied on taxes from the wealthy nobles who overthrew them. Then Robert and Jon Arryn wrecked the finances of the realm with lavish overspending to entertain the nobility, and stopped taxing the wealthy nobles. This required an entirely new system of expanding underage prostitution and financing the government off that, as well as squeezing common merchants, while also borrowing from Braavos and the Lannisters and stopping funding for the Night’s Watch before Winter. Those and blocking Rhaegar’s planned social reforms to protect common folk and killing a lot of people and sacking King’s Landing, killing babies, and raping a lot of women in the capital were the big achievements of Robert’s Rebellion.
As soon as Sansa gets to King's Landing and forgets about Jayne and never asks about her. And when she was packed off North, what was poor Jayne thinking?
Petyr will be dead at the tournament or shortly after, Jeyne won’t be able to effect him just from travel times. Also why is Sansa being mistreated disgusting writing , but Jeyne’s good? Not a fan of small folk?
one is treated for shock value (and having the complete irl gross factor that the second that sansa's actress turned 18 they started pulling that shit with her) and the other has actual thematic relevance to the story. try again, troll, but thanks for getting more eyeballs on this vid.
@@BadgerPride89 what in your mind is the difference between how Jeyne is treated and how Sansa is treated? If there is no difference, why then is it thematically different?
LOL yep that's exactly it, I love it when smallfolk are violently raped. But seriously, obviously in an ideal world no one in Westeros would be raped, but the fact that GoT went out of its way to have one of its leading characters violently raped for absolutely no logical narrative or character development reason and actually had to do a lot of things that made absolutely no sense in order for Sansa to be raped and abused is very frustrating. Also, I said Sansa's treatment was disgusting, not that Jeyne's treatment was good, unless I somehow wrote something I absolutely don't believe into my script and completely forgot about it.
@@HillsAliveYT my point isn’t that it wasn’t disgusting, but that the same treatment should have the same narrative meaning right? The fact Hardyng will mirror this treatment to Sansa in the future makes the criticism of the show even weirder. It’s part of her story arc of marriage (or needing a man) not being the thing to save her but her needing to find her own power; also the criticism of forced marrige and why it’s bad theme.
@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 No not at all, obviously the same thing happening to two different characters would yield different developments and results.
Jeyne isn’t a commoner. She got a last name. Something commoners don’t have in Westeros. She’s nobility. Minor noble but a noble non the less. Something she got in common with Petyr.
Very true. Many people forget that evert steward of a castle is usually a noble as well just more minor nobility than who they serve usually. House Poole has it's own page on A Song of Ice and Fire wiki but we only really know about Jeyne and her father.
Yes, although she’s only the daughter of a steward if I’m not mistaken. Definitely better than just a commoner to be sure, but the house effectively lost all relevance politically after winterfell was burned.
She's the daughter of a Steward. Not a commonor, but very very minor nobility
I agree. Remember the Tyrels were the Stewarts of High Garden when their Lords House Gardener died on the Field of Fire. Now House Tyrel rules Highgarden. So the Pooles are important minor nobility
I think you can have a family name and therefore a 'house' but if you don't have at least an honorary title I'm pretty sure you're still common? I think the Cassels are the same way? I could be totally wrong though
I once read an argument that Sansa actually doesn't consider Jeyne a close friend because of their minor differences in status and that she doesn''t mention her "often", which is ridiculous because they are so important to each other!
Yeah, GOT completely screwed Jeyne over, but something I think about often is one of the only times we see her on screen, wiping Sansa's face after Arya throws food at her. It's just a single shot, but THAT'S Jeyne and Sansa, especially in the books.
Two traditionally feminine girls treated like pawns by the people around them, they deserve a soft ending (Jeyne lady-in-waiting to Queen Sansa? I can only dream!)
That is so odd, I mean I know people tend to not view Sansa kindly but she literally calls Jeyne her truest friend or something like that, clearly she cares. And honestly I lowkey dream for Sansa to eliminate the Boltons and make Jeyne the Lady of the Dreadfort.
@@HillsAliveYT Yeah honestly I think it stems from the general Sansa hate (especially in combination with the opinion that Arya is better than she is), which is so unfortunate because the story of Sansa and Jeyne is so touching, so sweet, and has such potential. You touched on Sansa's negative view in the fandom in another video (excellently, if I may add!), and it remains so important to continue to acknowledge it and how it affects other characters as well (to their detriment).
Also where's the petition to sign to take everything away from the Boltons and give it to Jeyne? That's perfect!
@@ladylady LOL well I mean technically... if all the Boltons die and Jeyne survives, she legally inherits their estate anyway, right? She is literally "Lady Bolton" now.
I don’t think people understand how Sansa mentally deals with her trauma by compartmentalizing a lot of the awful things that happen to her and rewriting her own memory of certain events.
@@HillsAliveYT You are right. It would be like Barbrey Ryswell and how she ruled Barrowton as Lady Dustin and Willem Dustin's widow even though she has no claim by blood. So Jeyne ending up as the Lady of the Dreadfort and ruler of all those lands is plausible.
I really like when people understand that Jeyne is important, bc I feel like one of the major themes in the novels is “everyone is important”, which is easily overlooked considering where they usually focus (it’s on the main characters).
I was just having this argument, mostly with myself, about how that’s the main point of the Giver, too, not that the main character succeeds or fails, just that he finds value in other human beings.
And I feel like Jeyne and Sansa’s relationship will embody that theme, too, that everyone has value, everyone is important. I think they’ll be a strong friendship for years to come, because they know that everyone is important.
Yeah I definitely agree, I mean Jeyne obviously has value beyond taking Littlefinger, but I love that GRRM set them up to seemingly be two sides of the same coin in that they both represent the best and worst of what can happen when powerful people forget that even the “nobodies” have power.
@@HillsAliveYT I feel like Jeyne being a little girl(to me, lol, bc I am very old) is also a major factor here. Baelish seems to have made a lot of his fortune exploiting people like her. So that makes her taking him down even better.
“everyone is important” is the obvious and necessary counterpoint to "everyone is expendable". Stories consist of actions and actions need actors and if you cannot rely on a "main actor" staying alive through the story, relevant actions need to possibly have actors that are not "main".
I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that Theon thought Jeyne was worth rescuing for humanitarian reasons. My recollection was that Theon pitied Jeyne ... but was just as worried that someone would find that she wasnt the real Arya. When Mance and the spearwives come to save Arya, Theon is almost forced to go along with it. Theon goes along with it because it promises his escape, as much as he cares for Jeyne .His care for Jeyne is not a motivating factor here, perhaps a teeny bit, as he pities a fellow victim of Ramsay.
Pretty much. The spearwives find him in the godswood and take him to Mance. When Stannis arrives and Bolton sends out the Freys, the spearwives make their attempt and Theon is dragged along as their key to Arya. He knows it's suicide, but he also knows the spearwives will kill him and find another way if it really comes down to it.
I interpreted it a little differently. I genuinely felt he took responsibility for her well being. He desperately didn't want her to end up like him and was willing to die with her before she ended up in Ramsay's custody again. Theon's pov kept repeating themes about the dogs that were named after the hunts, the wedding night stuff. When she was reluctant to leave during the escape he said in his mind "I'm Theon" and to her "I know you, I know who you are." as like a code between the two of them. Maybe I am reading deeply into it but those are loaded words coming from "Reek" to "Arya Stark".
Basically he knew who Jeyne was, he knew himself and he wasn't going to let her be Ramsay's toy if there was a shot. Yeah Theon was threatened to do it but he and Jeyne have been severely abused. When even remembering your name is an act of bravery, rescuing and escaping is as worthy of a song as any deed from the Age of Heroes. Good thing there was a singer nearby.
The way he keeps repeating "I saved her, I saved her" later when he's Stannis' prisoner makes me think the act of saving Jeyne was about saving himself too, he regained a sense of self or self respect and started on redeeming himself by being brave and doing somethig good that isn't purely self serving like he used to be. He's taking a huge step away from Ramsey instead of accepting his fate and remaining broken.
This was the breaking point in the show for me. I managed to rationalize the omission of Lady Stoneheart and even the Tysha Confession from Jaime to Tyrion, but this storyline is where the show just lost me completely. Interchanging Jeyne with Sansa, as if it made ANY sense (not even getting into the whole ‘their kinda similar women so they can just be interchanged’ thing) completely derailed the story for me. I love a good villain in the story, and I forgave the removal of Tyrion as a villainous character, but Littlefinger? Man I was so looking forward to seeing just how he would fall prey to the very thing that rose him to power in the first place, the overlooking and disregard that people in this society have for those they deem irrelevant. It’s rather poetic, really. But instead we got Sansa shoehorned into Jeynes plot for the sole purpose of shock value and, I suspect, because the show runners had no faith that the audience would care about anyone who isn’t a main character. Which is ironic and disturbing on many different levels considering the themes of Littlefingers story of power and perception. Fantastic video! I’m glad you addressed all of this as this was the departure point for me in the show, the final straw in my eyes.
Yeah, I obviously watched the show to the end, but the intense reaction to the flop ending has always thrown me off because for me too this was kind of the "breaking point," not in the sense that I quit the series because of it but because I recognized what kind of storytelling I should be expecting going forward so two bad final seasons were not remotely off-brand for GoT to me.
@@HillsAliveYT Same here, I forgave smaller changes in the adaptation in the earlier seasons, but they just got to the point where I lost all faith in their ability to tell this story properly. Especially what happened with Dorne in addition to what you’ve addressed, probably the most interesting kingdom as a whole in my opinion because of its history and differences to the other kingdoms social structures. I really enjoy your videos since I myself cannot relate to the “season 8 ruined everything” sentiment as the signs were there much earlier and you address them perfectly. Keep on making these videos please! It’s my “see? I’m not crazy” outlet for myself.
OH MY GOD YES don't even get me started on the bizarrely racist presentation of Dorne that like, isn't much of a discussion point with anyone? That's definitely a topic I'm going to dive deeper into but the fact that they made their only non-white-coded Westerosi people hyper-sexual and hyper-violent (which reads very spicy/sexy Latin stereotypes to me) when that is not book canon AT ALL drives me bonkers.
@@HillsAliveYT That really disturbed me. Dorne is not only interesting as a society, but also has some SERIOUS character superstars and plot-related intrigue. All the many schemes of Doran, the Sarella and Arianne and Quentyn storylines, the pivotal role that this kingdom and these people have in the story at large is some of the most interesting dynamics that this series has in my opinion. And all those interesting plots and stories and characters were swapped for some cheap stereotypes??? What? It just makes no sense. This is the kingdom that resisted Aegon, that forced the Targaryens to come to the table on their terms, that have probably the most forward-thinking ideals in all of Westeros… and we get backward stereotypes instead just to toss them out when they’re done serving the story. The irony is too great, it’s truly something else. If they had kept the Dorne storyline similar to the books I could’ve forgiven nearly anything else. They could change Euron, screw up Daenerys’s downfalll, had Jaime do whatever. But Dorne’s storyline and everything relating to it is just too good to throw away like this. Some of the best material to be able to translate to the small screen! So many good characters to follow and plot threads to get lost in and intrigues to weave with.
What about when they brought in Ed Sheehan 🤪?
THANK YOU for highlighting Jeyne Poole. I kinda thought she'd end the series as 'Lady Arya' (the real Arya won't likely retake her place as a highborn lady), and rule the north with Sansa as sisters and BFFs. I also thought she'd be the catalyst to turn Sansa against LF, and the pair would defeat him together, kinda like how the death of LF was a Stark family affair in the show, but with just Jeyne and Sansa against LF, and with actually competent storytelling.
I always thought Arya’s entire story was about her reclaiming her identity and her name after going so long having to deny it. I can’t see Arya ending her story as anyone else but Arya Stark.
@@sugarpearl9781 I have no idea how Arya's story will end, tbh, especially since the show handled her arc so poorly. She's becoming so much of a villain that it'll be hard for her to claw her way out. But whether she ends the series as Arya Stark or not, im pretty certain she won't live as a highborn, socially conforming lady. She may return to Winterfell, reconnect with her surviving family, but in the eyes of the other lords and especially the histories, im pretty sure Jeyne Poole will be Arya Stark.
This is quite an interesting theory seeing as Arya does go to Braavos and has the opportunity for someone to take over as her and she be able to do what ever she wants. Sounds much more plausible than: kill the Freys, sleep with Gendry, kill the Knight King, what's west of Westeros? (Wow, Game of Thrones became Game of Whiplash, am I right?) A Song of Ice and Fire had the set up for a reason. George has a reason for doing this.
Anyway, great theory! I had never heard this one and hadn't thought of it myself! I watch so many theory videos it genuinely surprises me when I haven't heard a theory before. lol
I especially love this theory given how another Jeyne, Jeyne Arryn, ruled the Vale alongside another woman for several years. 😊
It would be amazing if this happens! I hope you're right.
She really is another fine example of how D&D either didn't understand the story that GRRM is telling, or just didn't care. I sometimes wonder if they ever even bothered to read the books, or just had an assistant do it and give them a synopsis of the exciting bits.
Personal theory about Baelish. I can't help wonder if, like Tywin, he is more show than substance, and is really just a small-time grifter who takes advantage of opportunities when they arise, rather than having any sort of plan. This would account for Varys having no idea what Littlefinger's plan is.
Personally im convinced they read the first book, unconvinced they read any of the others. I think your assistants reading and summarizing is basically what occurred.
The Sansa story arc was imo, is just a barely veiled writrer rape-fanfic...
Littlefinger I feel is a master plotter in many ways, maybe the most masterful. I think his improv is sub-par compared to say Varys tho. For example once he goes off plan and kills Lysa he almost immediately is surrounded by enemy agents like the Mad Mouse..
So I think we're watching him stumble blindly currently to a degree, while trying to bring things back to base (grain schemes and such)
@@randominternetguyoffical yooo, first, I love ur vids, also ppl are very harsh on d&d on stuff that makes sense with context. They were making a show, not a book series. In the show jeyne had never been mentioned bc there was no need to. It would feel a bit contrived if all of a sudden they said “oh btw, we have Sansa’s best friend that you’ve never heard of, she’s now part of the plot” I love the books but d&d were left with 3 chapters after season 4. It was a bad decision but one I don’t blame them personally for
@@aripeters2412 Thank you! Really glad you enjoy my inane ramblings.
Im very critical of dnd where that scene is concerned because its so unneeded and forced in there. I completely understand the swapping out of characters if its a writing issue, however the rape did nothing for the characters, plot, theme or anything. It just exists taking up film time and leaving viewers with horrible hot takes. (there's a whole rant in here about how swaths of the fandom are comfortable with titanic retconning of things to include rapes but not cool to allow a Black dude to play a minor character in a spinoff... but that's a rant for another time, that slso includes a writers obligation to the evolution of fandom segment and such)
I take issue with the way it was hamfisted in rather than the idea that Sansa and Jayne's characters would have to share some overlap in a tv adaption.
All that said the book was intentionally written in a tv script style by GRRM who was a pro tv writer for several years so I'm rather unreceptive to any argument that changes from book to show were required at all.
damn, this tea is strong, you got a full coffee rant outta me lol
@@randominternetguyoffical well there had to be changes in order for ppl to care to read TWOW
@@aripeters2412 I certainly agree, but they coulda cut the whole concept in favor or something different entirely. I think they had a lot of options and went with the worst one for personal and shock value reasons. Which sucks and to me degrades the end product a great deal.
I have a lot of complaints about what I've seen in the show and like 90% of the have to do with writing choices so at least for me that's the weak link in the whole thing.
I really want Jeyne to have a happy ending, some peace she deserves after being used and abused by those around her
In defense of the show-runners... Dance wasn't released when they were doing season 1, and even if grrm told then that Jeyne would be an important character in Dance, they probably hadn't read the novel and couldn't have known how well a Sansa replacement wouldn't work.
Then again, why didn't they add her back in season 2? One quick scene about "this is Jeyne, she was one of Lord Eddard's servants" and she's handed over to LF. Then she spends the next few seasons as a side character in the Ros storyline. It might've worked really well to have the juxtaposition of LF being nice to Sansa, then ordering Jeyne whipped for disobedience in the next scene. Maybe have Ros be a protective/motherly figure for Jeyne, so when she's killed off, Jeyne would leap at the opportunity to be Arya and leave the brothel... and then the audience, knowing Ramsay, is fed a gut punch of dramatic irony.
Why didn't the show do this???
Honestly, given that Sansa's marriage to Ramsay was one of the only things GRRM ever openly and firmly disagreed with regarding the show, I have a very hard time believing that he didn't say anything about it to D&D before publicly saying that in his world that whole storyline would never happen.
@@HillsAliveYT The only other reason I can think of that the showrunners would've made Jeyne-Sansa substitution is that they didn't want to adapt the Alayne Feast storyline. To be fair, they don't have too much material as Alayne is definitely a minor character for the moment, and the story is pretty boring if you're not interested in the subtle scheming of the Vale nobility, which the showrunners clearly weren't. Book-Sansa starts out significantly more naive than show-Sansa - maybe they thought they could forego this this whole subplot and streamline things to put Sansa back in Winterfell and do fewer seasons? (BIG miscalculation)... i would say it all comes down to a lack of care for Sansa specifically as a character, but they were doing some similar things (albeit mostly less egregiously) to most other plotlines around the same time (where's Taena, Aurane, Stoneheart, the Green Grace, the Blackwoods and the Brackens, Illyrio, Rodrik the Reader, Arianne, Quentyn, Victarion?)
@@HillsAliveYT I understand GRRM disagreeing with it but D&D had good reason to combine Sansa and Jeyne. It gives Sophie something to do as an actress, and it gives the audience someone to care about rather than a character who we never build up.
Agreed with this video so much! Little finger giving Sansa to Ramsay made no sense in the show, especially considering he wants her for himself as he sees her as an extension of her mother. I honestly thought they were setting up Ros (I wish they called her Kyra tbh) to be a fake Sansa instead and I really think it would have worked with Jeyne's absence. Whilst they both have red hair, Ros' two important relationships in the show is with Theon and Littlefinger, both of which were set up in Series 1. Theon and Ros only use each other for their own sexual gratification and he sees her as a plaything while she sees him as a immature little boy. Imagine seeing that relationship actually develop and have them bond over Ramsay's horrendous treatment of them, pushing Show Theon to become a better man like Jeyne did for Book Theon. As for Littlefinger, Ros was very high up in his brothel, so it would be no small feat to assume she would have information that Sansa could use to destroy Littlefinger, which is what Varys recruited her for. Plus Littlefinger discovering her betrayal was a perfect reason to give her to Ramsay, not just because of her being Northern, living near Winterfell and having a resemblance to Sansa, but it would have been the perfect punishment. Honestly imo, the setup was there and near perfect and I'm very surprised D&D didn't take it. I think them cutting out Jeyne and killing Ros in Series 3 was an early warning sign that they didn't really know what they were doing.
I love the idea, though it might be a bit ridiculous idk, of Brienne finally finding Sansa and Sansa asking for Oathkeeper to behead Littlefinger. If she passes the sentence she must swing the sword as her father said and it'd be a nice callback to her mother asking for Briennes sword too
Most fans and houses don’t care about the lowborn. That’s why the Starks are my favorite. They mind their business and take care of their people.
And what I like is that they are actually empathetic. We have multiple examples of characters like Sansa and Jon not realizing how privileged they are, but when they are confronted with it they actually change their behavior, which is rare in their world.
@@HillsAliveYT I think Tyrion is like the only one from book one that sees how privileged that he is.
@@simmingsammi def not lol
@@TheGoodMan211 what do you mean?
not too sure i agree with your assessment of the Starks. Granted, they're not complete jerks like Cersei and Tywin...but they still wage a war that gets their own people killed in droves. Not their intention, but an inevitable consequence of their actions, and at some point the results gotta speak for themselves. I can think of no smallfolk who've had it worse (excluding the people of Astapor) than those whose lords swore to King Robb.
For pro-smallfolk lords, look no further than Doran Martell. He avoids joining the war because of the toll it will have on the smallfolk. Rhoynish law seems to include a basic social safety net. And because his true plans and goals are so obscured, he's a fun character to riddle about. that's why he's my favorite.
I like your theory, and it brings poetic justice to Littlefinger, something GRRM loves.
I have had for a long time a theory that Sansa would have a some sort of Stockholm Syndrome for Petyr Baelish. I like this theory since her knowing what happened to Jeyne Poole can trigger an action from her part.
Interesting! I hadn’t thought of Jeyne as Littlefinger’s foil but you made a compelling case. Same as Petyr manages to tilt people in the brink of ethical decisions towards evil, Jeyne has tilted Theon towards good.
It may be depressing that a highborn needs to like or love you for you to rise in power (as in Pride and Prejudice). BUT, it is one way that the lower classes can distinguish themselves. Sansa loves Jeyne because she was a Good friend. Darcy loves Elizabeth Bennet because she has a unique sharp mind and drive toward integrity. This was the social mobility of the feudal world. Prove your worth to a lord or lady, just by being your virtuous self, and a lord or lady who is not mired in corruption may see and value that integrity. Good and talented People Can Always Have HOPE that their virtues and abilities will be noticed. So long as there are decent nobles to see it. When hypocrisy and vice reigns, then there is no hope for the good. But wherever virtue and talent are valued, social mobility is possible. Now we dn't need nobles to notice and value us. We can show our virtues to the world without their patronage, though it is never easy.
At least for now I think Jeyne is to damaged to take down LF or even Ramsay; But if Sansa does meet up with her in the north I can see Sansa taking her in and the girls rebond and then maybe get to that point.
Right now my odds on Jeyne surviving is 40 Yes- 60 No.
Masterfully done! Great ending line as well (among many!) Jayne is the true key to the North and to Littlefingers demise.
Im on my second listen rn while I brew up the morning tea 🍵
Justice for Jeyne!
Yes it was indeed disgusting that the show had Sansa being thrown to the Boltons. Also shows how lame the show runners are for expecting us to believe that she wouldn't tell Jon to castrate him after that, and let him creep around Winterfell. GTFO 🙄
Always a great day when Hill's Alive, Preston Jacobs and Alt Shift X uploads at the same time. 🙂
Tis a good day
@@randominternetguyoffical Love you too BTW.
@@YggdrasilAudio Awww, Thank you! My heart is filled with joy 💖
Should there be some comeuppance for Jaime and Brienne here? Doesn't Jaime tell Brienne not to rescue the Bolton's "Arya Stark" because she's a fake? Well shame on them - she was just in desperate need of rescue as she would have been had she been the real Arya Stark.
I think Justin Massey will get to Castle Black, find things there to be untenable and unsafe for "Lady Arya" and just take her with him to Bravos. No question he'd have eyes on being nice to her, making sure she is fed and clothed well, her wounds and anxiety treated as far as Westerosi care can go - with an eye to perhaps marrying her should Stannis win and the Boltons be wiped out. He has openly been looking for such an opportunity, and Stannis did suggest a Lordship might be something he'd favor if Massey was successful. He is charming and handsome and after years of torture and slavery, Jayne might find solace in a gentle spoken nobleman who doesn't treat her like shit.
So they arrive in Bravos and Arya, engaged in her continued training, will hear of a ship from Westeros arriving (somehow, waves magical "and things work out" hands), and that the last surviving known Stark - herself!! is supposedly with them. And she will recognize Jayne of course. And that will be the trigger for her to seek a break from the Faceless Men to go back to Winterfell and claim it as the real Arya. This will free Jayne to regain her own name and possibly some agency as well. As pointed out here, she is a vital key to getting Baelish, telling the entire story of what happened in the Red Keep. In addition to that, Arya "the women are important too" would be horrified and infuriated upon hearing of Jayne's treatment and want to protect or save or defend her for her own sake, as Jayne.
This is fantastic 🙌 love your analysis and 100% agree. Can’t wait for Jeyne to get her day! Excited to watch more of your videos ❤️
I loved the video. And as a fan of a Song of Ice and Fire I know by now that George RR Martin never makes, or creates a characther or a situation, by accident. Every single character, event or minimun detail is there for a reason. And it was presumption of the series writters to have made such change in the story.
Jeyne jeyne it rhymes with pain
I was looking for this comment
Your arguments show also how misogynic is the show runners view.
I think you're on to something.
This is exactly the sort of thing GRRM would do and it would be poetic justice.
The parallel between Littlefinger and Jeyne holds because both of them were the victims of sexual abuse although I know some people will say that men cannot be abused or some such nonsense.
WOW. FABULOUS video!!!! This goes really deep and I was VERY moved. I'll share for sure!!!!
"One of the most interesting "A song of ice and fire" .."
Ah yes. A new Hill's Alive video
I assumed that Jane poole would make her way over to Bravas as she is currently travelling with the Bravosi banker and won’t find Jon alive at the wall. I think that she’s more likely to be part of the Arya story.
Doesn't Sansa secretly hate Littlefinger already, even before knowing about Jeyne's fate? It seems to me she is currently enjoying his protection because she has nowhere to go, but at some point she will turn on him, whether she meets Jeyne again or not.
Jeyne Poole another frustrating reminder of why the books are better than the show.
Great observation - and her character deserves this consideration
Hi. It was a great video and very insightful. I hope you'll do a video about Euron I'm curious what you think about him.
Lol I love when they call him "the ned"
I'm hoping that Jeyne is going to be like Janine in the Handmaid's Tale. Slowly galvanized against her abusers until she is in the position to take them down without mercy
The biggest difficulty I see with this theory is how Jeyne and Sansa would end up together again. Jeyne is presumably going to head for the wall. Assuming Jon comes back as expected and cares enough to keep her safe (doubtful based on how much of a person is lost when they come back, and also, imo its iffy that he'd care that much anyway), he has no idea where Sansa is, so he can't reunite them. Iirc, last we heard, Littlefinger is planning to keep Sansa in the Eyrie to marry Robert Arryn's heir and there's no indication Sansa has a reason to head north. So unless Jon comes back, writes to Robert and says "hey sort-of-cousin, I want the nights watch to go to war with the Boltons to get back at them for torturing a girl they pretended was my half sister. Can you come help?" And for some reason Sansa completely breaks tradition and goes along for the war, there's no reason to expect they'll meet up any time soon.
Things might not go according to plan.
Yes, and i have a hard time believing that Petyr wouldn't see Jeyne as a potential liability.
This is the first prediction I have heard that Jeyne Poole will be Balish's downfall.
The books seem much deeper then the show... Sad that this story is left out.
Well done. 👏 👏 👏! I’m convinced. I think they definitely missed an opportunity with Jane Poole. Not to minimize Sansa’s suffering but Jane’s would’ve been the more powerful story imo.
Is just a random thought, but what if Arya does manages to get back to Westeros, but instead of revealing her real identity she decides to change Jeyne Poole´s face to make her look like herself? In that way she could still working on her revenge arc while Jeyne gets a chance to a "better life" since once the entire conflict is over, even if they pardon her for faking her identity, she doesn´t have anything else in the world. No family, no home, you could say the Starks could help her to some degree, but they cannot do much for a girl from a mysoginist society where rape victims are seeing as less than dirt, specially from those of low status. At least with the title as a fake Stark she gets some degree of protection once she is out of Ramsay Bolton´s hands. Another alternative would be becoming a silent sister, so she could get away with mistreatment from men after the horrible experiences she had while making it easier to keep the secret of her real identity.
For me, Your contents feels like justice and redemption for whole franchise. Your take on Jayne is just wonderful.
Really good video. I had always thought that Euron would be the one to undo Littlefinger. Littlefinger creates all this chaos in order to raise his station and presumably become king. In doing so he creates the environment necessary for a creature like Euron to rise. And Euron is probably the only character in the series who can look at Littlefinger's machinations and say something like "Your ambitions are too petty, why be a King when you can be God?"
Nice segment 👌👏
Jeyne Pool, I didn't forget her, mostly because I thought it was very against Women and their representation in the Entertainment-Industry that she was replaced with Sansa in the Show. Because switching one female Character for another isn't the right thing to do, even for financial Purposes. Especially when we could have had a Friendship between two Female Characters on the small screen. But knowing d&d, they would not be the 2 Minds to show that. Honestly, when I heard that Sansa would get the Jeyne Pool Plot, I wondered if they would have done that when one of their wives or Daughters had played that role. Given the fact that their Wives were too old and the Daughters to young, the comparison is lacking, but the question stands if the Role would have been played by a Person they care deeply for, they most likely would not switch Jeyne and Sansa.
As for Jeyne's Role, I think she will survive and she will get her own Castle and Lands from Sansa and/or Jon. Most likely the Castle and Lands of the Boltons. If the Story proceeds as I think, the Battle for Winterfell will take place during Sansa's escape to the Wall. We are talking about at least between 2-3 Armies who are marching in very high Snow. So we can't expect the Battle to be over in one Chapter. During the Preview Chapters, we received so far it seems Stannis did send Jeyne to the Wall because he thinks she is Arya Stark. So with the current weather Conditions and the Chapters we know so far, I think Jeyne arrives first at the Wall, shortly after her it is Davos with Rikkon (mostly because the Weather and the tricky Waters around Skaggos) and at last Sansa (mostly because she has the longest Journey) Jon's Ressurection will take place before Davos arrives because otherwise Shireen wouldn't be sacrificed and we know for a fact that Shireen will be sacrificed to the Lord of Light because it was one of the Plot points GRRM told d&d. I am unsure but I think Jeyne will arrive shortly after Jons's resurrection and he will know that she isn't Arya, although I don't think he knows who she is. Jeyne will continue her Masquerade until Sansa arrives because she knows who she is. There the 2 girls will exchange what happened to them and will plot to bring down Littlefinger.
In Order to get Sansa back, Littlefinger will most likely march against the Boltons with the Knights of the Vale. And in the End these 2 Girls will bring him down.
Jeyne Poole is easily the most tragic character whose has suffered the most in all of A Song of Ice and Fire. What Ramsay does to her literally disturbed me on a spiritual level. It made my stomach churn and still scars me to this day. Bravo GRRM for such masterful writing. Hope to God Winds of Winter comes out soon! I need to know what happens to Jeyne Poole! She is one of my most favorite characters!
I’m a big believer in the idea that the Ashford Meadow Tourney theory and Sansa’s foil dynamics with Cersei and Daenerys can be fulfilled by Sansa marrying Young Griff. Young Griff will be squaring off with both Cersei and Daenerys. Him and Sansa being married is really the best way to move the story forward. Sansa and Young Griff are paralleled to one another and have a lot in common, and the two of them meeting opens up an epic Littlefinger-Varys confrontation. It’s also clearly a very powerful marriage for Young Griff to seek out- he can be betrothed to Arianne and then set her aside for Sansa, a more powerful alliance (characterizing him even more as dutiful)- and it would be a sad repeat of Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna. And because JonCon’s days are numbered and Martin definitely has other plans for Arianne (her story is more tied to her father and Dorne), it would give us a long term connection to Young Griff, as he’d be very close to a major POV character. Above all, it would be beautifully ironic and sad for Sansa to finally marry a man who she would have once dreamed of after all of her suffering and trauma, only for Dany to come in and ruin it.
It makes sense because Petyr may WANT it to happen. Stannis taking the North and Rickon being (temporarily) planted will take away the opportunity for Sansa to claim it (if that’s even what Petyr wants). When he hears that Aegon is invading, but that Quentyn is in Meereen, he may feel that Sansa marring Aegon can get him right in the middle of the oncoming Targaryen conflict. Or maybe he will have Sansa marry Aegon just to ensure the Targaryen conflict happens.
Furthermore, it is still a means for Sansa to have Littlefinger killed, as what major action could Young Griff take that possibly earns him more momentum as the good guy- in the eyes of the reader and the people of Westeros- than executing the man who has caused so much chaos.
Agree with most of your conclusions but I do not see how Jeyne and Sansa reunite and Jeyne will help bring down the Boltons not LF. Jeyne is on her way to the wall. Jon will most likely be resurrected . He will know she is not Arya and call out the Boltons as frauds. The Lords of the North will care more about how they were defrauded than what happened to the poor girl even a minor noble. It will give the Lords a valid pretext to rise against the Boltons. Meanwhile Sansa will bring down LF through the Harry the Heir fiasco.
Didn’t the lannisters give Jayne to Ramsay?
Did LF have anything to do with it?
Yes, Littlefinger is the one who had Jeyne in the interim between when Sansa last saw her and she was given to Ramsay, and he appears to have abused her pretty badly.
Your video essays are excellent. ❤
Well struck
I mean she's not "going through it right now" it's a fictional book series set in a different time and universe. I get what you mean, also no
Also Jayne Poole was whipped across her back, sometime in Littlefingers care. Reek/ Theon notes this when he is forced to strip her for Ramsay on their wedding night.
I don't find using what you have ;beauty , intellect , sexual allure etc. And manipulate and take revenge on those who used you , hurt you or worse. It is AFTER what you do with the power you now possess is what matters.
I would think that Arya's life was one of the most important in the entire story, given that she kills the Night King, in the show, at least. I don't know if that will be true in the book, however.
Miranda is trying to worm information out of Sansa, Jeyne was the last real GF Sansa had.
This is really good stuff. Subscribed.🙂
This entire story arc is BS and I do not consider it canonical to George RR Martin A Song Of Ice And Fire series
i think stoneheart is goin to kill him with jaimie brienne sansa and the hound sort of converging together
One big mistake: Sansa ALREADY knows that Littlefinger took Jeyne away after the massacre.
It happened in one of her POV chapters in AGOT after all.
For some reason however, she never reminisces about Jeyne in AFFC....
Worst case scenario: George 'kinda forgot'....
Sansa barely reminisces about anything at all , except for her horrible days in the King's Landing, Ned's death . She is dissociating HARD , making up scenes in her head like she believes that she kissed the Hound etc . But she does think about Jeyne sometimes... When Myranda appears, her memory of Jeyne kinda comes to play and she thinks how long has it been since she was engaging in silly gossips with Jeyne etc..
But none of it probably matters , given that the books won't be finished.
Fight for the Ned's daughters 😊
The more important, the lower on the totem pole. Native Americans have had it bad enough, try to at least know what you are saying.
totem poles feature animals or mythical creatures, neither are "more important"
Lol gene pool
Really interesting!!
I don't see how Jeyne and Sansa will meet again anytime soon.
The weather is awful, Sansa is behind walls, Jeyne is going the other way.
I already forgot Jeyne Poole a long time ago.
This video is almost entirely word salad. Not a single thing of substance was said here beyond some platitudes about how Jeyne Poole might be important, somehow. Theon helps Jeyne because Mance promises to get Theon out of Winterfell and away from Ramsay. How the hell does this translate into Theon recognizing that Jeyne is worth helping, despite her low stature in the feudal hierarchy?
"Jeyne will not become Petyr..."
How do you know? The books barely reflect upon her character beyond her torment experience. And the fact that she used to be Sansa's BFF as well as Arya's childhood bully.
Good points about Jeyne. She’s one of those children characters like Mycah killed because Robert didn’t want to argue with his wife, or the dozens of underage age girls Robert slept with, that people just forget about they like Robert or are only interested in kids whose last name is Stark. At least some people feel bad for Jeyne bc Littlefinger and Ramsay are hated, but it seems like no one except Dany fans care about Mycah or all of Robert’s underage sexual victims. Or for that matter that Jon Arryn and Robert brought Littlefinger to King’s Landing and let him expand underaged prostitution and build his empire there, and rewarded him for it by making him Master of Coin. It’s Robert Baratheon and Jon Arryn and Lisa Tully who are all to blame to for what happens to Jeyne.
The treasury was overflowing when the Targaryen’s were in power, expenses were controlled, and the King relied on taxes from the wealthy nobles who overthrew them. Then Robert and Jon Arryn wrecked the finances of the realm with lavish overspending to entertain the nobility, and stopped taxing the wealthy nobles. This required an entirely new system of expanding underage prostitution and financing the government off that, as well as squeezing common merchants, while also borrowing from Braavos and the Lannisters and stopping funding for the Night’s Watch before Winter. Those and blocking Rhaegar’s planned social reforms to protect common folk and killing a lot of people and sacking King’s Landing, killing babies, and raping a lot of women in the capital were the big achievements of Robert’s Rebellion.
As soon as Sansa gets to King's Landing and forgets about Jayne and never asks about her. And when she was packed off North, what was poor Jayne thinking?
Petyr will be dead at the tournament or shortly after, Jeyne won’t be able to effect him just from travel times.
Also why is Sansa being mistreated disgusting writing , but Jeyne’s good? Not a fan of small folk?
one is treated for shock value (and having the complete irl gross factor that the second that sansa's actress turned 18 they started pulling that shit with her) and the other has actual thematic relevance to the story. try again, troll, but thanks for getting more eyeballs on this vid.
@@BadgerPride89 what in your mind is the difference between how Jeyne is treated and how Sansa is treated? If there is no difference, why then is it thematically different?
LOL yep that's exactly it, I love it when smallfolk are violently raped. But seriously, obviously in an ideal world no one in Westeros would be raped, but the fact that GoT went out of its way to have one of its leading characters violently raped for absolutely no logical narrative or character development reason and actually had to do a lot of things that made absolutely no sense in order for Sansa to be raped and abused is very frustrating. Also, I said Sansa's treatment was disgusting, not that Jeyne's treatment was good, unless I somehow wrote something I absolutely don't believe into my script and completely forgot about it.
@@HillsAliveYT my point isn’t that it wasn’t disgusting, but that the same treatment should have the same narrative meaning right? The fact Hardyng will mirror this treatment to Sansa in the future makes the criticism of the show even weirder. It’s part of her story arc of marriage (or needing a man) not being the thing to save her but her needing to find her own power; also the criticism of forced marrige and why it’s bad theme.
@@mistermaestersirthomas9164 No not at all, obviously the same thing happening to two different characters would yield different developments and results.
GRRM probably told D&D that Arya will kill LF. He just didn't specify which one :^)