Are Rhaenyra's Sons Illegitimate Strongs, Or Are They Actually Trueborn Velaryons?
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- Опубликовано: 2 май 2024
- The biological parentage of Jace, Luke, and Joffrey is one of the most vital elements of the conflict over Rhaenyra's attempt to take the Iron Throne. House of the Dragon has confirmed that the Strong boys are actually Strongs, but is there an argument to be made that they're not truly illegitimate? Are Rhaenyra's sons in fact trueborn Velaryons?
Content of This Video:
00:00 Intro
01:21 The Argument For The Strong Boys' Legitimacy
04:58 The Argument Against Legitimacy
09:07 Other Contributing Factors
11:40 The Author Ultimately Decides, And It's Been Decided
14:51 The Rules Need To Be Clearer
16:37 Conclusion 
Развлечения
Rhaenyra be like "I will not stand here listening to you all accusing me of something I obviously done"
And I am appalled you'd even consider such a thing. Off with their tongues!
Honestly I think it would have been more politically astute in the long run to just...own up and tell the truth - "Laenor and I tried, we really really tried, to have children, but could not. We ask together that, as King, you legitimise our children as his in the eyes of the law and the Gods".
Yes, in the short term it would have been a huge embarrassment to Laenor specifically in Westeros culture, but it would play into a long established precedent of the King's ability to legitimise an heir and a bit of careful reading through the genealogical records could give them all the ammunition they needed - go back far enough and every house has an ancestor, either directly or by marriage, with a legitimised bastard somewhere in the mix. And then it just becomes a case of slamming the scrolls down on the table, pointing and reminding everyone that if they don't recognise the right of a king to legitimise a child, then the entirety of Westerosi nobility have been bastards for generations.
If Rhaenerya wanted to ensure Lucerys claim towards Driftmark, she had to make sure he acted like a proper Velaryon or at least what's expected of one like making sure he can be confident, a good leader, and an even better sailor. In order to do this, I think she should've sent Lucerys to Driftmark to ward under Corlys Velaryon and squire to one of their knights. By doing that, Lucerys can build allies and relationships with other members of House Velaryon that he'll need when making a claim.
Yeah, and this is one of the many reasons why having kids with Harwin Strong seems so overtly self-sabotaging. Like, I presume a lot of Rhaenyra's willingness to isolate herself and her kids revolves around the fact that they so obviously look like Strongs, so understandably she would be scared to send the heir of Driftmark to Driftmark because she could get outed or Luke could get hurt or even killed because it would become clear that he's can't be a Velaryon.
@@HillsAliveYT I don't even mind Rhaenerya finding a sperm donor for her to have kids with. Her husband is gay and possibly infertile and if she can't prove herself with an heir then that makes Alicent and her children's claims stronger, so I can see why she needs somebody. However, Harwin was the worst choice possible in this case since he looks nothing like Laenor which would mean her kids will probably look nothing like Laenor. Honestly, she should've gotten some low-ranking member of House Velaryon who isn't too ambitious and can keep his mouth shut so that way there's plausible deniability and her children would still have Velaryon blood in them.
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 LOL yes agreed, I mean I can't believe I'm saying I'm Team Cersei here but at least she reproduced with someone who looked exactly like her ergo her children's paternity was much harder to question than Rhaenyra's.
If that would happen, I would wager that Vaemond Velaryon would have probably found a way to ensure Lucerys "disappears."
@@annieandelsieofarendelle3294 or she can just find some man with pale blonde hair and blue eyes it's not uncommon in westeros
One more thing Rhaenyra doesn't seem to have taken into account is Daemon. Are we really supposed to believe he would let Jace, a bastard, inherit the Iron Throne when he has a true-born son with Rhaenyra?
LOL yeah people are really out here giving Daemon all the benefit of the doubt and I'm like, the dude spent literal decades grooming his niece in the hopes of getting closer to the Iron Throne, zero chance he's letting her illegitimate kids take the throne before his legitimate sons.
The thing is as well, Rhaenyra seemed to completely forget that the only reason she was named heir-before she even had brothers to contest her, mind you-was because the council didn't trust Daemon to rule. There was already so much animosity towards the idea of her ruling and the fact of her heirs being bastards, and then she goes and marries the man who everyone wants as far from the throne possible, giving him so much power and the chance to commit the atrocities everyone was trying to stop? What was she thinking??
@@lilchaos9212 nothing. That’s her biggest flaw. She does what she wants and don’t think until the situation calls for it for her to take some kind of action of desperate measures and yes Daemon will not allowed no strong boys to take the throne from his legitimate targ sons at all.
@@laynasia2711 Absolutely. Like he'd stand them, thinking that he could convince Rhaenyra maybe to claim their children as heir, but once she wouldn't he'd try and get rid of the Strong boys. In a way, Aemond just beat him to it and handed Daemon the best situation; the Strong boys dying and Rhaenyra wanting to fight.
@@lilchaos9212 I agree wholeheartedly.
The Laenor survival is such a bad idea. Now Canonically Rhaenyra have NO lawfull kids that can inherit her titles/claims: as Laenor being alive makes both Aegon the Younger and Viserys the Younger bastards as well. Hell, all the following Targaryens in the dynastic history are thus illegittimate.
Can’t targerians marry two people? Like the two sisters and her uncle wanted to take her as a second wife.. do her second marriage is valid
@@sounsure9108 Westeros hated the valyrian poligamy even more than incest. Indeed in the deal between the early Targaryens and the Church, they had to sacrifice the right to marry two people in exchange of have a special permission to pratice incest. Aegon and his sisters were allowed as such only because they married before converting to the Faith of the Seven.
Honestly, that kind of slaps? It makes Daenarys and Viserys' obsession with their birthright even more absurd since they're technically from a bastard line. Even Jon Snow isn't technically legitimate. Rhaegar's attempted annullment for Elia is completely invalid; the marriage was obviously consummated, she gave him legitimate children, including a son and heir, there's no evidence she committed adultery or was previously married. He had no reason to put her aside, so his marriage to Lyanna was bigamous, and even if it wasn't, has no witnesses and therefore can't be validated. We just know he APPLIED for annullment, did they every actually say the application was accepted? It's super GRRMy to make all the claimants to the throne ultimately illegimate, since the overall message of the story is monarchy is dumb.
@@elephantshell3617 GRR has stated that in The Faith of the Seven it is possible to annul a marriage even after it has been legitimized, but doing so required a special writ from the High Septon himself. If everyone agrees the marriage was not consummated then an annulment could be granted by a local council of the Faith.
Under the customs of the Old Gods there is no way to annul a consummated marriage. An unconsummated marriage is automatically annulled if either spouse remarries, swearing vows to another before a wierwood hearttree (there do not have to be any human witnesses) before consummating the new union.
There is one other way to end marriages though. If a married man joins the Nightswatch, he is legally dead. His son would then inherit his lands and titles early and his 'widow' would be free to remarry even though her late husband is still technically alive.
Laenor is good as dead...., Like dead dead, the only logical way for him to be written back is him probably saving viserys 2nd the baby but it's still unlikely
It was literally Rhaenyra's faults that her sons were shunned as bastard children. She did absolutely nothing at all to help their reputations at all, violence isn't the answer to that considering that'll worsen things
Well, she didn't do a great job of preparing them for that reality either. Again, having kids with Harwin was a bad idea, but while I agree that in theory it shouldn't matter, the fact that she has clearly told them that it DOESN'T matter is bananas. I mean, it is such a vital issue that if any of her illegitimate kids survived long enough to inherit the Iron Throne, it was basically guaranteed that a civil war would break out because they were such obvious bastards, so to isolate them from almost everyone and tell them that what other people think about them is irrelevant is actually hugely dangerous.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree. I can just imagine every Velaryon or even someone like Aemond or Daeron chaffing at having to take orders from a bastard. That'd be an ever present reminder that your house was effectively usurped by an outsider metaphorically twisting you arm. And with lineages spanning thousands of years to be known in your own family chronicles as the generation that allowed a bastard to claim your inheritance and continue his line with your family's name, titles, incomes, and seat would be a blackmark/shame you'd never be able to rectify. Your legacy is essentially trashed from that point on.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree
I get that they're young,but they should at least be aware of what people think or even the general mindsets of people of the time
Instead of making them feel bad or told them that what others said are wrong. Rhaenyra should've make the fact of their actual paternity something that doesn't bother them so much, it's true they're basically illegitimate but it shouldn't affect their personalities or mindsets. That they should strive for their goals instead of letting the blood in their veins dictate their lives
But then thanks to Rhaenyra's advice,the title "bastards" affect all of their beings and lives. Resulting in their obvious tragic ends
@@HillsAliveYT Aemond get hit by her son for speaking the truth of their illegitimacy. Tragic honestly cuz that reaction is the one you should avoid the most
Poor Aemond though
Yes, I think that Rhaenyra is pretty aware of that as well. I mean if she sent Luke off to the Velaryons, it would be very easy for them to just kill him so they can't be usurped. They have a bigass family and it's hard to believe that at least one of them wouldn't just off him and make it look like an accident to save their family's inheritance.
I feel for the three Strong boys, they never asked to be in the situation they are in. They had to grow up with people whispering behind their backs.
I blame Rhaenyra, Laenor, Harwin for putting the three boys in this situation.
Rhaenyra and Laenor just come across as unfathomably selfish and cruel to the boys in this scenario, tbh. All three kids are permanently at risk bc she couldn’t drink moon tea and he couldn’t do his dynastic duty a couple of times.
Thank you for calling out Laenor. People act like dude is some innocent angel because of orientation.
Uh yeah I know that HotD was like trying to not kill their gays by secretly making Laenor survive but Jesus Christ, the kids that he raised just lost their biological father and now they believe that their "adoptive" father died and their mom and new stepdad may have plotted his murder, like y'all are not looking out for these kids' emotional health whatsoever.
@Hill's Alive Bruh I literally thought that same thing. Half the trauma those kids have endured is by Rhaenyra’s own hand. Not only that, but what about Corlys and Rhaenys? They just lost their daughter and now they think they have “lost” their son and heir, and it was orchestrated by their own family. But it’s ok because of the way Laenor was born? Because he didn’t want this life? Naw Fuck that. I say. Laenor was fuck boy who wanted and love all the perks of a noble born son but didn’t want to do his duty. The way fans give him a pass is nasty.
Yeah it's bizarre how much HotD avoided the horrendousness of Laenor just bouncing and faking his own death, it was clearly a plot twist of convenience but it made a lot of the characters' actions and reactions not make any sense. The notion that Laenor would be fine ditching his entire life, including his parents, his children, his massive power, and his freaking dragon just so he can live a life where he can essentially be slightly more openly gay than he already was in Westeros is completely nonsensical.
@Hill's Alive Correct, No one cared about Laenor’s sexuality because of his highborn status. So everyone acting like he was this poor suppressed individual is foolish. Laenor isn’t a victim, his just an unreasonable fool.
You know one scene that was peak gaslighting yet underrated in the show? When Rhaenyra was sending Luke off to Storm's End, she said something to the affect that House Baratheons has is allied with House Velaryon and that Borros is kin to Luke's "grandmother" Rhaenys so there should be no problems? That was just wild. Why would she tell him that when Luke knows and she know he knows he's a bastard?
@Crescent really shows her lack of political insight. Oh “one of their relatives that may be dead made a promise to us almost two decades that im the rightful heir to the iron throne” instead of “promise a marriage to one of their daughters to yourself and stated all the benefits of being married to the royal family”
Even Luke didn't believe her and chose not to bring that up with Borros
@@mariavi33 He was smart for not doing that. He was looking at her like I know that I’m not a velayron lol so I’m not going to mention any kind of familial connections
@@laynasia2711 of course there are practical considerations that many lords will follow, but oaths really are very important in this world. Their whole political system is built on oaths and promises between liege and vassal. It may have been naive of Rhaenyra, but it's unfair to call it stupid. Following his father's oath is the expected thing to do in this world.
Really, Viserys was foolish not to have the successors of dead lords swear the oath too though, especially lords paramount.
@@joeyeardley4002 I agree wholeheartedly. Viserys should have made sure that the original claims were “renewed” every year or so but it requires him to actually be a efficient leader.
The main problem I see with a lot of people that watch this show (and this goes for both people that defend the blacks or greens) is that they have an anachronistic view of history. In other words, they evaluate historical moments of society with ideas and values that are only available in a modern era. The argument for the legitimacy of the three strong boys because all relevant parties treat them as such is yet another demonstration of that. Whilst we do have legal precedents for children who are either born out of wedlock or adopted in regards to inheritance, this could never be a thing in a society where blood literally defined your social status for the rest of your life.
In short, people are bad at history and just cannot imagine a society that does not fit 21st century western liberal democracy framework.
COMPLETELY agree. Same goes for the people who say that “Viserys said Rhaenyra was gonna be queen and what the king says is law.” What the king says is law only if there’s a precedent and/or the feudal lords support him. The Targaryens are unique in that they have dragons backing them, not just military might. Unfortunately for Rhaenyra, the greens also have dragons backing them.
People tend to think medieval succession was something the king could bestow upon anyone he wanted. Just like how now, a a parent can choose not to give a dime to one of their kids, but even then, it can be taken to court. This isn’t how society worked back then because it literally wouldn’t have been able to function if it did. We have legal systems in place and technology that allows us certain privileges they didn’t. The law of primogeniture seems unfair to us and it is, but what other choice was there back then??
Except when it comes to defending men marrying child brides like Alicent and Sansa lol then suddenly they're history experts.
@@ohmyduck8101 in Anglo-Saxon England, a king could write a will bestowing the throne on absolutely anyone he wished...but that was merely a suggestion that the Witan was free to ignore when they met to vote on who the next king should really be. They could also ignore primogeniture and pick a younger son or a cousin whom they thought was better suited for the job.
They really are bad at history 😒.
I get really annoyed when they’re make statements like “OMG what a bad friend Alicent is to marry her best friend’s father, “she should’ve turned down the proposal”, “I don’t feel sorry for her at all, she got herself in this mess”.
Like these people really don’t get how little of choice medieval ladies have over their own life. Noble ladies did not get to choose their own husbands, their fathers did.
These people need to pick up a history book before ranting about a subject they barely know.
If legitimacy depends on the father's belief that the child is their's, then Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are legitimate and Ned Stark was a traitor for trying to remove Joffrey from the throne despite Robert's dying wish.
I wouldnt call it belief, more like knowledge. Laenor knows its not his children, he still claims them. Robert didnt know that they werent his.
@@thorthewolf8801 it doesn't really matter what Laenor claims, everyone can see that these aren't his kids.
Realistically, the issue of Rhaenyra's children's legitimacy was almost besides the point - the real cause of the Dance of Dragons was the personal weakness of Viserys, which allowed powerful, hostile factions to emerge at court. A king with the authority of Aegon I or Jaehaerys would not have been facing this same problem. The legitimacy issue was just a symptom because, in Viserys's court, who sat on the Iron Throne had more deadly implications than the political system could contain due to the antagonism between Daemon and Otto Hightower.
So, here's my take on it;
Yes, they're Bastards. The thing is, they COULD be legitimized, but if they're legitimized by Viserys, then that means 2 things;
One, that they're Strongs, and not Velaryons. Harwin and Rhaenyra's relationship would be proven, out in ink, for all in the realm to know. And that means bringing shame and dishonor upon House Targaryen, Velaryon, and Strong. And this means Viserys and Rhaenyra have to admit that the kids are bastards, which they Gaslight the ever-loving crap out of everyone by insisting that they're not.
Two, it means the boys aren't Velaryons at all, and so the whole alliance between the Iron Throne and the Throne of Driftmark would be nullified, as their blood (well, between Laena and Rhaenyra at least) isn't actually conjoined in their union.
The thing is, if say, Laenor had a bastard (I know, he wouldn't but, bare with me here), and the kid was legitimized, the kid would be Velaryon, since that's what his father is. But, that's because stuff happens through the male line, not the female. So if Rhaenyra legitimized her kids, they don't become Targaryen, they become whatever their father is/was.
Not only that, but there's also the fact that Laenor is still alive, and so, as far as we Viewers are concerned, none of Rhaenyra's children with Daemon are legitimate either. Of course, this is much harder to prove to the outside world, as even Laenor's own family believe he's dead, but as far as Legality goes, Laenor IS still alive so, his marriage to Rhaenyra hasn't actually been broken.
So, really, Rhaenyra broke every rule/tradition/act possible in regards to marriages. *Basically, NONE of Rhaenyra's children are legitimate, one way or another.*
"Her children... are BASTARDS!"
-Vaemond Velaryon
With Driftmark however, there is Laena’s and Daemond two daughters. They are of Velaryon blood so Driftmark wouldn’t necessarily leave Rhaenyra’s sphere of influence.
@@jjh2456
True. Though, since they're Targaryens by their father Daemon, the other Velaryons could still claim priority.
The thing you are overlooking is that (at leats in the show) there was a special treaty signed between Viserys and Coryls which stated that all of Rhaenyra's children would be considered Velaryons until ascending the Iron Throne as Targaryens. That could arguably override the normal rules and make Rhaenyra's first three sons Velaryons even if they were legitimized as Strongs, and might also mean that Daemon's sons with Rhaenyra should be Velaryons too.
@@magister343but that would make it so that legitimized Storngs are taking the place of Velaryons. A good argument could be made that they aren’t Velaryons and so the deal doesn’t apply.
Here’s the thing. Laenor would have to admit that they not his children. He never did. And by the laws of Westeros the legal children of a lord which is the grandchildren in this case would have to disinherit the boys if it is PROVEN. I. The boooks no, it is not proven. It is rumored. The show runners pulled a d@d move by putting things in the show that the author of the book put in on purpose. By saying the boys are in fact bastards, they are taking away the possibility that those boys are in fact legitimate. Black veleryons were a choice. Not a good one. But a choice.
HoTD DOES sometimes feels like it head Rhaenyra make literally the worst choices she could make every time. Have kids with the worst person she can-I mean she couldn't have at least found a lover that has dark skin? Not do anything to help her son's position-people have said it before, but WHY didn't she have Luke prepared to rule? Ensure Velaryon support? She made sure that the Velaryons wouldn't support her fully by making them think she killed their son.
And Laenor is no better, abandoning his wife and adopted sons like that. I really don't understand how people can think Rhaeynra would make a good queen.
Rhaenyra literally did nothing to make herself seem like a good heir after Viserys named her. She didn't involve herself with politics or befriend Lords and other houses to boost her allies and supports. She insulted them all when they all offered their sons to marry her, which would immediately turn them against her and scorn them. Then she had obvious bastards and killed/silenced anyone that brought it up. And she ran away to Dragonstone for years, isolating herself further, not getting involved with her father's court to get herself introduced to and used to politics/her people's lives/the daily goings-on of Westeros. She shot herself in the foot at every opportunity and showed how politically and socially inept she was, crying to Viserys to fix all her problems, didn't prepare her children or make it so they were raised to have an understanding of their future inheritance. Rhaenyra and her sons made no effort to get involved and show that they were capable and relied on a decades old oath that was made before she had brothers. At least the greens made the effort and kept the place running while Viserys rotted away, getting involved and doing things to make the people actually like them and want them as their rulers. Aegon was inept, but his support network weren't and knew how to handle things. All Rhaenyra and her family did was hide away, complain, and do nothing to show they could be good rulers.
@@lilchaos9212everything you said. Rhaenyra felt as though she was entitled and didn’t do the work. She wants the power and privilege of the iron throne but none of the responsibility. This is a common theme with the Targaryens. Some of them, Jahaerys I for instance, understood that they had to do the work. Most of them however didn’t and that is why they were ultimately deposed.
@@jjh2456 Yeah I think that she also shared that mindset with Daenarys which is quite interesting due to how different the times they lived in were. Targayens are raised from birth to have superiority complexes. It is also ironic that Rhaenyra called this out with her whole "people saw Targaryens are closer to the gods than to men, but that's only because of our dragons" conversation with Viserys, but then she proceed to forget that and act entitled to things due to her lineage.
I don't think she could've found any Mixed or Black men to date who weren't Velaryons. Noblewomen usually had affairs with noblemen, it's almost impossible for them to have relationships with non-nobles, unless they were peasants under their employ. And considering how few Black people there were, she likely doesn't have any Black or Mixed men under her employ.
@@jasonhaven7170 Velaryons were not black people in the books, they looked exactly like Targaryens. Don't tell me books sources doesn't matter, it does. So she could have found any Targaryen man for her children, or even Velaryons, her problem wasn't that tough at all, hell, even daemon and corlys could help lol
I realized that if anything in the books it's even more obvious that the boys are Harwin's sons and not Laenor's for two reasons. The first one is that while Rhaenyra, in the books, tries to use the argument that the boys inherited Rhaenys' looks it's a futile argument because Rhaenys has BLACK HAIR and PURPLE EYES. The Strong boys have BROWN HAIR, BROWN EYES, and most of all PUG NOSES. Do you know who else has that? Harwin. There is a major difference between black and brown hair and purple and brown eyes. Rhaenys inherited both of her parents' looks (her mother's black Baratheon hair and her father's purple Valyrian eyes and aquiline nose) and married a man of Valyrian descent and had 2 children with the typical trademark looks of a Valyrian. The boys don't even look like Rhaenyra. They look so much like Harwin which leads to my next point which is that Laenor wasn't even living with Rhaenyra at all!
In the show, they changed it to him living with her in Kings Landing and in Dragonstone. However, in the books, after they get married Laenor literally runs back to Driftmark and stays there until his death. He would only pop in at Kings Landing for "special events" and then would immediately go right back to Driftmark. Even when Rhaenyra left for Dragonstone he still stayed at Driftmark. He was a legit absentee husband/father. He was basically a stranger to those boys, but you know who was by her side 24/7? Harwin. Do you know who was at her bedside when she gave birth to her first 3 children? Harwin. Yeah, Laenor was there too but why did her sworn protector need to be there as well🤨? Do you know who was by her side when she left for Dragonstone? Harwin. These two were basically living as a married couple all in but name, and it's even worse when you find out that in the books Harwin was actually one of her suitors for her hand. It's like Rhaenyra had a choice to choose Harwin as her husband, when she was given the freedom to find herself a perfect match, but instead of choosing him she just continues to lollygag until her father has to force her to marry her gay cousin. What an idiot! This makes it even worse on top of the fact that Rhaenyra and Laenor didn't even try to conceive a legitimate child together like their show counterparts did (although I don't think they even tried that hard in the show either). They did not try at all, they just got married and went on to live separate lives.
It was never said Rhaenys has aquiline nose, nor that this is a specific Valyrian trait. It's only said Laenor specifically has that.
To be fair in the books Harwin is supposed to have broken a collar bone at the wedding tournament, at around the time Rhenyra conceived.
@@alexturlais8558 Nothing that would stop him from banging her.
Harwin is never described in the books. Nor are Rhaenyra or her parents. I'm not arguing that her kids are actually Laenor's, but there's certainly an argument to be made that the book is providing information very selectively to guide us in a certain direction. I believe that if Jace et al.'s looks were really so out there, we'd actually be told that Harwin looked the same, or be told of how Valyrian Rhaenyra and her parents looked, when in fact we're just never told what they look like. Also, all babies have pug noses.
@@joeyeardley4002 Rhaenyra's father is described by Martin, he has silver hair and purple eyes. Rhaenyra's mother was Aemma Arryn, Aemma's mother was Daella Targaryen who had silver hair and purple eyes. Arryns are the most andal House in Westeros and usually have blonde hair and blue eyes, the Andals are said to have fair hair and fair eyes.
Laenor had silver hair and purple eyes, so did Rhaenyra. She had 3 sons and all 3 had brown eyes and brown hair. They are bastards, there's no discussion.
Mainly talking about the shows.
I find the parallelisms between the blacks on HOTD and the Lanisters on GOT fascinating. It's weird to me how someone who was completely against Cersei kids sitting on the iron throne can still root for the blacks on HOTD.
I think by making the blacks a little more sympathetic and, arguably, more compassionate than their fire and blood counterparts, the producers of the show made a lot of fans stand on both sides of the "illegitimate" ruler narrative.
Again, talking about the shows only, both Robert and Viserys expressed their wishes for Joffrey and Rhaenyra to sit the iron throne after them.
Ned literally changed Robert's last will due to Joffrey's illegitimacy and it's taken as an honorable feat, on the other hand, the Hightower's fight seems to received as driven only by greed
The two situations are not comparable.
Cersei's bastards have no claim to the throne because they're not related to the ruling monarch (Robert Baratheon).
Whereas Rhaenyra's bastards can be legitimised as their mother is the Heir to the throne
Ned also didn't do it for personal gain - he wasn't trying to usurp power for himself or the Starks the way the Hightowers want. In fact, as Sansa was betrothed to Joffery, Ned's decision to expose his illegitimacy would mean his daughter would not be Queen. How many lords of Westeros would pass that up for honours sake?
And it's probably worth pointing out that Rhaenyra is fudging the facts about her own heir, and Jace is, as she points out, a Targaryen, legitimate or not. Whereas Cersei was trying to lie about ROBERT'S heir - her children are pure Lannister, not Baratheon.
@@laurendearnley9595 Targaryen or not they are still bastard born out of wedlock, they have no claims to the iron throne over Alicent's sons who are also Targaryens and born in wedlock. Unless Rhaenyra and Laenor admit they are bastard for Viserys to legitimize them, or everyone plays blind and pretend they can't see what these boys are
@dendenne4856 that's not my point.
The line of succession passes through Rhaenyra to her children. The problem is that they are not legitimate - but they are her blood. Her legitimate sons Viserys and Aegon therefore have a stronger claim than her illegitimate sons Luce, Jace and Joff but they do all have a claim as her children.
The line of succession in GOT however, passes through Robert. It does NOT pass through Cersei or Jamie. Joffery, Myrcella and Tommen have no claim to the throne because they are not Roberts blood, they are born of Cersei and Jamie.
Rhaenyra is trying to commit a smaller crime - an illegitimate Targaryen inheriting the Targaryen throne is very different to an illegitimate Lannister inheriting the Baratheon throne.
can you imagine if Ned was like "actually i loved the woman who i had Jon Snow with more than i love catelyn, therefore Robb is second in line and Jon snow is now Jon Stark and will be my heir. it doesnt matter because jon is clearly my son and my blood, not catelyn's, is what actually matters." It would be absolute chaos in the North and the riverlands immediately.
I have always found the argument that they can just choose their heirs and legitimize and delegitimize their children to not make any sense considering that Randyll Tarly literally threatened to kill his son if he didn't give up his claim by joining the Night’s Watch because he wanted to make his younger son heir. Granted, Randyll Tarly was quite extreme, but still.
I really wish that they use the character of Alys Rivers to go into depth on these issues. She could easily make the argument that if her bastard nephews and their mother can inherit the highest seats in the realm, then why can't she inherit Harrenhall?
Henry viii did delegitimize his daughters (Mary i and Elizabeth i), but although he placed them into the line of succession, he never re-legitimized them. He also never legitimized his illegitimate son (Henry Fitzroy) or put him in the line of succession.
Yeah that's a good point about Randyll actually, again it is very extreme but also goes to show how important the established line of succession is and seems to make it obvious that fussing with that line isn't as easy as some think it is.
And Henry VIII literally broke away from the Catholic Church and set up his own Church to do all this. Westeros still follows the Seven
To be fair the Tarlys were “only” lords of smaller land almost 200 years later, not the heirs/ king and queen of seven kingdoms. Also it’s mentioned a few times that the Targaryens fvkery is only tolerated coz they have dragons and are “closer to gods” than to people, similar to f.e. popes in medieval times (literally legitimating their own “ba$tards”, sometimes trying to make them counts/countesses, dukes/duchesses and princess/es of different countries when they weren’t supposed to have children in the first place)
Hmm on the other side Stannis offered to legitimize Jon as a Stark and heir of winterfell. I always understood it like only the king can legitimize / delegitimize children in GOT.
@@elisaberghaus328 Yeah thats what I figured as well. Kings gets perks that other lords don't get and whatever they say goes. Either that or maybe Randyll just wanted to kill Sam for selfish reasons to save face and didn't actually have to, as dying in battle would be more of an "honorable" look in his eyes than just admitting to everyone hes a failure by sending him to become a maester/nights watch etc
It sets an awful precedent that creates the circumstances for succession crises everywhere. If bastards can inherit under those circumstances, that alone gives any trueborn heir reason to revolt against her. More importantly, if Laenor was willing to fall on his sword, so to speak, it's possible this could have all been avoided.
He admits they are not his but she had his permission, VIserys legitimizes them as Targaryens, but Jace has to be wed to Laena or Baela immediately after and only _their_ children inherit Driftmark or it goes back to his brother. Corlys experiences some short-term embarassment, but only one whose reputation really suffers is Laenor. Seems a small price to avoid a war. Having to put out the fires of people constantly bringing up the boys' i illegitimacy seems far more taxing that.
open legitimized bastards sitting on a westerosi throne instead of true born first born sons. even the starks and arrayns would fold at this point the kings power cant be that absolute.
@@animejerk05 yeah. There’s no way such a thing would stand.
I doubt Corlys would openly marry his grandchildren to bastards. Their claims can openly be challenged legitimized or not by all other members of House Velaryon, especially the male claimants.
Rhaenrya makes a lot of mistakes cause she does run on "I'm a Targaryen therefore I am right!"
If her and Laenor wanted to avoid this problem, they should have picked out a surrogate together or something.
Btw, in real medieval history, legitimate marriages, children, etc have been outright ended for little more than politics. Regardless of legitimately.
In some way, Rhaenyra is also usurping Aegon by putting bastards in line to the throne before him.She has no legitimate children ( Laenor is alive, which means Aegon and Viserys are bastards too), so her brother Aegon is HER heir
Rhaenyra and daemon
Incestous bigamists
Since Laenor's dragon got claimed in the war, its implied that he has died by then, so her children with Daemon are legitimate in every sense.
In this case, if no one at all knows that Laenor was alive (and that he's now dead), its supposed to parallel the fact that in the books he probably did die early on, so the narrative wants you to see Daemon and Rhaenyra's kids as legitimate (claimed by both parents, biologically from both parents, born inside a marriage everyone recognises, recognised by all lords, including the ones who are enemies to their claim).
@@Secretgirl97Seasmoke hasn’t been claimed yet. What are you talking about?
@@Secretgirl97 In the show no one has claimed Seasmoke yet, I'm curious how are they gonna manage that. And since he's still alive Rhaenyra new marriage is technically invalid in the eyes of westerosi law since polygamy isn't practiced anymore.
@@notyourproblem474 Considering that you never hear about the queenships of Elinor Constayne or Rhaena Targaryen being invalidated, I don't think the marriage of Daemon and Rhaenyra is invalid. The Targaryens don't practice polygamy because of the Faith.
I love how they honestly try to dance around the three strong boys. Marriage is a written and public document. Because those three kids are made outside the confinement of a written or publicly acknowledged document they are not legitimate, not legitimate strongs,velyarons or Targaryens
Edit: Think of a ghost civilian… if there’s no documents for you’re existence then no you definitely can’t inherit your mom or dads estate.
What about the case for adoption? I agree with you, but Laenor accepting the boys while knowing the truth is essentially him adopting them
@@lutilda yes and no. Seeing as Corlys ;”(and Rhaenys in their case) was head of the house they would be getting brunt end of the stick. They don’t have the freedom to really decline the BS. And adopted children don’t inherit land. Their usual GRANTED that. Say Harrenhall is left without an heir again. Then if Rob Stark wants he can gift it to Theon or the Frey boys.
@@lutilda nice side argument
@@lutilda If he's adopted them, show me the papers that say such a thing.
Also, the insistence that if they *were* to be adopted was the case, and it was made public, then other claimants (ie Vaemond) would much more easily press their claims.
@@lutilda there is no case for adoption because there's no such thing as adoption in Planetos
One thing I haven't heard anyone point out is that the boys were *never* Targaryens OR Strongs. As bastards with a noble parent they would be Waters (after Rhaenyra) or Rivers (after Harwin). Heck, even Storm if Criston was Jace's father!
If they were trueborn (Laenor+Rhaenyra) they would be automatically Velaryrons with an agreement that the eldest boy would be called Targaryen so that the Iron Throne stays in the hands of 'House Targaryen'.
Rhaeynra was fool in my many ways it’s a shame her children will suffer because of her actions
Everybody will suffer but the Hightowers will sufferthe most.
They wouldn't exist is she didn't do what she did.
Fr. She could've impregnated using Laenor's sperm
Difference between Henry VIII and Viserys I is that Viserys is claiming the Strong bastards were sired by a guy who's factually not their father.
Meanwhile Henry never denied Mary I was his daughter with Catherine, nor that Elizabeth wasn't his daughter with Anne Boleyn.
What Henry did was say "I happened to find out my marriages with Catherine and Anne were not valid due to these reasons therefore they are bastards!" And later he legitimized them.
Still England always saw them as true heirs, when their brother King Edward named his cousin Jane his heir, the Realm quickly joined Mary's claim and she took the throne easily.
I do generally agree that the rules of legitimacy should probably be a little clearer in-story, but your ending statement pretty much sums up not only how I feel, but a very common problem I see regarding fictional media these days. People constantly trying to project modern social norms into fictional cultures that clearly do not operate in the same way.
It is a fact that many fictional cultures like Westeros are unfair, biased, every kind of negative -ist in the book, and probably a shitty place to live. But those cultures and worlds are set up that way for reasons that are almost always crucial to the narrative in some way, shape, or form. And while some people do seem to get the message that this is often done purposefully and you're not supposed to like or be comfortable with it, a lot of other people try to use that as an opportunity to project modern beliefs and values into the world and act like that should go over well without any protest. Which, if you think about it, is total nonsense when you consider that things aren't even going smoothly in the real world and some countries are arguably taking steps backwards.
Now, would it be nice for the blended family dynamic that Rhaenyra has going on to be accepted and for the acceptance of her children to ensure their legitimacy? Sure. But she probably wouldn't even be married to Laenor in the first place under more ideal circumstances because she would likely be allowed to choose her own husband and Laenor would be allowed to be open with his homosexuality, so the problems mentioned here likely wouldn't even be problems in the first place if the country operated in such a way, which it clearly doesn't. It is genuinely nice that she's trying to respect his sexual preferences, but Westeros has always been a world where a person's preferences are about as valued as a rat's ass. Given the rigidity of the rules and culture of Westeros, the best thing they could've done was at least TRY to lie in a better way than just act like nothing was wrong when something clearly was, but they instead simply rely on Viserys's and Corlys's defense of them with no plans for how that might blow up in their face in the future once both of them are dead.
And most importantly of all is just how much all of this hurts the children. I don't know how old Jace was meant to be in episodes 6 and 7, but the fact that he outright asks his mother if he's a bastard while still in the (I think) single-digits of age is just heartbreaking because he's already thinking about the consequences of his parents' actions that he knows is going to fall into his lap one day. It feels like Jace, Luke, and Joffrey have started leaning heavily into their mother's narrative for the sole purpose of coping, because they're not stupid to the danger they're going to be in otherwise. It's a tragic situation because they're otherwise relatively decent young men, but they were doomed to never have a stable life as long as their parents continued to build up lies and dissent from those around them.
I honestly feel there's more that I could say, but the main point is that a lot of people's defense for subjects like these tends to stem from the idea that all societies in fiction somehow should operate by modern western cultural norms even when it's explicitly clear that isn't how the world works and no one is planning a revolution any time soon. And that's often written purposefully.
I mean Ned Stark had a blended family cause we know Jon wasn’t his but the son of his sister and Rhaegar Targaryen. Blended families aren’t bad, but everyone kinda knew to an extent what was what.
Yeah and I get why and actually think that analyzing fiction from a modern POV makes sense in a lot of circumstances. but ultimately the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the characters is self-evident because this is an imaginary situation and the person who imagined it has basically straight-up told us that that's what's up.
A brilliant and very well written post. I agree 10000%
In the show they're 100% bastards. Blood is thicker than water and that matters in this world and ours, as you can see from Vaemonds reaction its takes more than just acceptance to legitimize a child just coz the 'father' says so.
The Strong Boys aren't even Strong at this point, because Rhaenyra isn't married to Harwin, they are actually Waters. So Aemond was being quite generous by calling them lord Strong xDD
🧔🏾♂👉🏾🧒🏻 "THAT is not a Velaryon."
Technically he is
@@fazediamond5671 🧔🏾♂👉🏾🧒🏻 "THAT is not a Velaryon."
@@Shenanakins na technically he has velaryon blood on rhaenyra side
I see the main difference between Rhaenyra & Cersei's children is that Laenor was aware that they weren't his kids but Robert wasn't. Laenor knowingly accepted the boys as his own (adopted them so to say) while Robert wasn't given the chance to know (& would not have accepted them if he knew).
That's not to say I don't think the boys are bastards or that Rhaenyra & Laenor weren't complete idiots for their choices. Rhaenyra EASILY could have just drunk moontea to ensure she didn't have Harwin's kids. And Laenor "tried" but never succeeded to get Rhaenyra pregnant, but how hard did he really try? Plus, if they were desperate enough there were other options of men for Rhaenyra to have "fake but passable" kids with. Anyone with Valyrian or Valryon looks would do. Daemon, Corlys, hell even some random guy from Lys or Volantis would do.
Oh thanks! I was one of the people who gave "pushback". And im quite happy that you are tackling this topic!
You are one of my favorite RUclipsrs
And you're the only Supernatural character that matters, Sam Winchester
On an unrelated note, I wish that they'd had the band Primus dress up as troubadours, and serenade the Strongs with a bardcore rendition of "Here come the Bastards" everywhere they went.
LMFAO that is a super-specific fantasy.
@@HillsAliveYT If GoT could wrangle an Ed Sheeran cameo, HOTD should be able to get Primus
Trying to pass off bastards as legitimate. It ALWAYS...ends bad. Anyways, you know I done seen it, you know I done lived it so...let's re-live it.
The race-bending of House of Velaryon is an example of why race-swapping character isn’t always a good thing. Like you said, the fact that this white women is seriously trying to pass off these pure plain white children as legitimate heirs to a black House, and how it’s supported by not only by in universe characters but by the actual fandom. Is problematic and hilariously foul. As a black man I find is uncomfortable and a bit disturbing how many fans support the Blacks in this folly.
I think they could have made it a good thing had they actually engaged with it, but I'm shocked that they didn't foresee the potential issues that could arise with this particular switch or consider what should be done in order to mitigate it. I mean, the Velaryons are Valyrian, and Valyrian culture is extremely white supremacist-coded, so that alone made this alteration weird as hell to me. Book Laenor was a gay black man who was purportedly assassinated so his wife and her uncle could hook up, and in order to avoid killing him off and making it problematic af, they just came up with a nonsensical excuse to avoid it. And obviously with the Strong boys, Rhaenyra is trying to pass off white kids as biracial kids to steal the only prominent black family in the story's shit, but because Rhaenyra is the protagonist they essentially villainize the lone black character who speaks out against this. Again, if they dug into what this means I think it could have been an interesting storyline, but at present it's just another really great example of the fact that slotting black actors into roles that were white characters can really go sideways if you don't put any thought into what kind of racial dynamic you're creating by making that change.
YES. And the fact that they had Vaemond brutally murdered by Daemon, and then also made him Corly's brother so his grievances made even more sense! He and the rest of the house were being cheated out of their house's power/birthright by two white children that had no actual relation to them. Rhaenyra silencing them and Viserys threatening anyone that challenged his grandsons had some really uncomfortable subtext that people ignore.
@@HillsAliveYT Yes!! I fully agree!!! If the creators actually addressed and acknowledged it, it could make very interesting storyline and dynamic on the show. But as right now, it’s just a foul unbalanced story arc that has some real life racial subtext to it. This is why race-swapping isn’t always a good things, no matter how big or impactful the project might be. Everything that glitters isn’t gold.
@@lilchaos9212 People ignore it and champion it because Rhaenyra is a girlboss and Daemon is a badass. Yet they hate Alicent and Aemond. I’m not saying people can’t enjoy or like their characters, because I do. But if you don’t see or worse you do see but choose to willfully ignore their negative and toxic ways, is lowkey disturbing.
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Twitter will call anyone anything when they have an opinion they is different from the majority. If they actually address the real world issues with Strong legitimacy storyline, than this could be interesting. But I highly doubt they will, so we’re left with this unbalance storyline.
I am under the impression that the reason the word "treason" gets thrown around so much in regards to the boys' legitimacy is because if they are in fact illegitimate, Rhaenyra herself is guilty of high treason and would be killed or at least disowned as heir or ruler. She can under no circumstances reveal the true parentage of her sons and retain her status. They couldn't be "legitimized" after the fact because she is still guilty of treason.
However I'm trying to find evidence for this in the wikis and I'm getting nothing. There's really no mention of the possibility of women having bastards. I'm trying to remember why I think this and Im guessing maybe it's mentioned in relation to Cersei's bastards in ASOIAF or GoT, or else in relation to Rhaenyra herself in either Fire & Blood or HotD. It's also entirely possible I've reached this conclusion in error lol so if anyone knows for sure one way or another lmk!
yes noble women can have bastards. in ASOIAF a few of Robert's bastards were mothered by noble women. they can be recognised and treated the same as bastards from a noble lord.
Of course, the consequences on the lady's social standing will be worse, but there was no crime in it.
The crime is lying to your spouse about them (which Rhaenyra didn't do), or trying to pass them off as legitimate to inherit something (which Rhaenyra did do)
So Rhaenyra could technically legitimize her bastards without being accused of high treason. But that would obviously put her in a worse position with her claim of course, and lose her the support of Driftmark (because Baela wouldn't be Queen via Jace + Rhaena wouldn't be lady of Driftmark via Luke) which is a political blunder too.
They would probably only inherit the Iron Throne after her trueborn children with Daemon though unless the degree specifies otherwise, but that would cause more trouble down the line.
And they would have difficulty inheriting Driftmark still because they would need to inherit that via their father's side, so the other Velaryons could still dispute the claim.
Though Driftmark does end up going to a legitimised bastard as long as he was a bastard from the side that inherits the seat.
I think that what is defined as "treason" is wishy washy and rules are unclear because people in history bent rules all the time to suit them, so this confusion just reflects reality.
Yes, I can't recall perfectly so I could be wrong, but the really seriously treasonous aspect isn't having bastards, it's attempting to put them in the line of succession for the highest seat/power in the country. It would also be its own shitstorm if she acknowledged that she had illegitimate children while married to Laenor, but she almost certainly wouldn't be killed because of it, at best she would have lost her social standing and Viserys probably would have had to renege on making her the heir to the Iron Throne. There are noblewomen who have had illegitimate children with noblemen and while it didn't exactly help them, it didn't exactly ruin their lives either. I mean Daena the Defiant was a Targaryen who had an illegitimate son with another Targaryen, and that child/branch of the family is what became House Blackfyre. So Rhaenyra would have lost something by copping to it, but she loses something either way, and at least if the Strong boys were acknowledged bastards they wouldn't be in mortal danger constantly.
I’m not aware of any cases of married noblewomen having bastards. I’m sure it happened, but they probably kept it hush-hush if only for the sake of the houses political stability
@@Secretgirl97 maybe that is Damon plan to deal with the harwin kids
@@Secretgirl97 I think they would have no claim to Driftmark at all. They would be Targaryens+ Strongs, not Targaryens+ Velaryons. So Rhaenyra would also weaken Corlys' support of her.If Jace was naturalized as a Targaryen+Strong, then house Velaryon wouldn't have any influence through him ( future king) and wouldn't have a reason to support him.
I have to disagree about their parentage being ambiguous in the book, even then the conclusion is obvious. Sure, in the book Laenor is a white Targaryen looking man whose mom has black hair, but the boys don't have black hair, or the Baratheon blue eyes and straight nose for that matter, they "have brown curly hair, brown eyes and pug noses". Conveniently, their sworn shield, Harwin Strong, whose job is to follow them and their mother around fits that description exactly. Add to that that in the book Laenor spends 95% of his time away from them in Driftmark and only occasionally pops by, not actually going with them to Dragonstome, and it becomes fairly obvious who the dad is. Especially when Strong and Cole never have to fight in the book and so Harwin is the one to go to Dragonstone with them. He's only removed after the incident at Laena's funeral where the Strong accusation is brought to light (and then dies at Harrenhal). He's also described as having been at her bedside when Luke was born. There is no ambiguity there.
harwin is never described in detail in F&B, he's just mentioned to be very tall & big, that's it.
@@4rtsyval When the boys are described it says that the features I mentioned are why Harwin Strong is suspected in court to be the father. One assumes that means he has those features as well.
It fault falls 100% on Rhaenyra. She had to make sure those kids were Valaryons. Corlys or one of his close male relatives should've been the father of her kids. And her not having feelings for them doesn't matter. Firstly, she should place duty above that. Secondly, she didn't love Laenor either but tried with him. Doing this guaranteed the Valaryons always backed them and their appearance would not cause any questions to arise. She made everything worse by not embracing the Valaryon heritage. They were treated solely as Targaryens. Jace should have at least 1 voyage under his belt by time of the dance. Luc should have been sent to Driftmark by the time he was 5 years old. Rhaenys could teach him the Targaryen stuff he needed to know. She should have resigned her right as heir if she wants willing to do her duty.
I’d say I side with the idea that Rhaenyra’s children are illegitimate in every legal sense of Westeros, regardless of what Laenor, Corlys and Viserys say which is made all the more evident by their appearance in HOTD.
In Fire & Blood, I personally interpreted Rhaenyra’s sons has have being Laenor’s children, believing them to have managed the act with… ahem… some aid for Laenor. (This largely made sense for me regarding the later appearance of the Brothers of Hull and book Rhaenys having more Baratheon features in her hair color and in particular Corlys’ support of them)
But with the Velayrons being Black, which I am fine with, it is obvious as Vaemond points out that Rhaenyra’s children are illegitimate and should be regarded as such. In the point of view of a reader I was adamantly Team Black, but from watching the show and thinking if I was an actual Lord in Westeros, I’d have to support the Greens, despite me not particularly liking them, purely from a legal standpoint.
At best, I could see accepting Rhaenyra becoming queen because she is the Princess of Dragonstone, and was made heir and then perhaps Aegon the Younger and Viserys could be next in line, (as regardless of the truth of Laenor’s several, legally he is dead to everyone else in Westeros). But Jace? King?? No. Never.
Aegon the Elder’s claim simply makes more between him and Jace, despite him likely making for a poor king. But it’s not a matter of who is best suited for the task, but who has the superior claim.
And if I were a Westerosi lord, Aegon the Elder does simply have the superior claim.
I am glad that you mentioned the implications of the Velayron’s being Black in regards to Rhaenyra’s attempts to just still Driftmark from them. I think she slightly makes it better with the arranged marriage between Luke and Rhaela, but she only did that out of desperation. It seriously shocked me how cool Corlys was with putting all his legacy on to a child that isn’t even his grandson. Like: he literally looked at all his Black siblings, nephews, nieces, cousins and said, I’ll give everything that the Velayrons have built since before the Taragaryens, that I built with my own two hands to make it the wealthiest House in the seven kingdoms… and give it all to this sniveling white child.
Yeah… that… that doesn’t exactly come off well. It was Corlys’ unwavering support for Rhaenyra’s son that originally made me feel that they had to have been legitimate. After all, he wouldn’t do all that for kids who weren’t his grandsons right? … right?
I believe part of the issue for me is the reasonable doubt. Because it is so clear that they are illegitimate and there is no severe lack of legitimate offspring, there is no reconciling it.
I think Louis XIV is kind of a good example of this. Upon his death he sought to legitimize several of his sons in order to pad out the French line of succession, but it sort of… didn’t work because everyone ignored it the moment he was dead. They kind of reached a compromise of saying they where legitimate but not in the line of succession.
But then history is set with numerous cases of illegitimate sons becoming kings, but unlike Rhaenyra’s children, they are usually able to do so in extraordinary circumstances, particularly when there is no other option left, like John of Aviz.
Rhaenyra and Laenor’s children would be no more than 25% black. The average 25% black/75% white person rarely looks black so I don’t think the strong boys appearance in terms of race is too much of a give away. The hair is the biggest outlier, but in the book Rhaenys has brown hair so the legitimacy of her sons is more ambiguous.
The problem with using these vague and random arguments about whether someone is technically legitimate or not is that you can basically apply them everywhere. For instance, I can say that Aegon III and Viserys II are technically bastards in the show because Rhaenyra's real husband Laenor is still alive. Would the precedent of Targaryen polygamy cut it here to protect the legitimacy of those two? Certainly not to everyone.
In our own world, Richard III said Edward IV's children were illegitimate because he was already pre-contracted to marry (And was technically already married by god to) another woman when he married his wife. Henry VIII tried to make his daughters illegitimate by law but nobody else saw it that way. In both of these cases people didn't see the children as illegitimate because according to the standard and most basic definition of being a legitimate child (Being born in wedlock), they were legit, despite anything the King said.
In Henry VIII's alternate succession plan he degreed that after his children the descendants of his younger sister would come before the descendants of his older sister. This was effortlessly ignored by everyone. Similarly, his son Edward VI decreed that the throne would pass to a distant protestant cousin over his sisters and this was also basically ignored. In these cases, we can see that nobody actually cared what the king thought on the succession, especially when he was dead, and instead stuck to the official inheritance rules over the alternate succession. And remember, this was a period where the English monarch had more power than any other time in history because feudalism had ended and they controlled the church.
Monarchs under a feudal system definitely had much less power because they needed the support of the nobles meaning they had to be generally lawful. As time progressed in the middle ages the general logic became: "If the king doesn't follow the law, why should we see his reign as lawful." Richard II was unanimously overthrown by the senior nobility for completely undermining all laws to extend his tyranny. He tortured and flat out stole the lands of Royal Dukes, members of his own royal family, without any real cause. If they weren't safe from his tyranny then nobody was. Nobles rebelled. Nobody doubted he was the true heir to the throne, but it didn't matter. Being monarch means you are head of state and government, not a warlord. You can conquer with Fire and Blood but you shouldn't always rule with it. For an in ASOIAF universe example, Aerys II broke faith with House Stark when he murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his heir for, in the eyes of all, no good reason. This is why most of the great lord's rebelled against Aerys II. If even Ned Stark saw deposing Aerys as legal and right then it probably was in the universe as well. Deposing Aerys II's heirs was another matter entirely and Ned Stark knew it too but I digress.
The main point is that the laws as the people (Lord's and septons in this case) see them matter way more than what the King says, especially on matters of great significance such as succession. Monarchs can't get away with goofy justifications for major decisions they make. All eyes are on them including royal rivals. 🐲 🟩
The point about Henry VIII and Edward VI is actually a really interesting one because by the standards of the law, Edward VI and Lady Jane Grey's supporters were absolutely in the right - Mary was still legally a bastard and neither her father's will nor any act of parliament had altered that. Its just that when it came down to it, just about everyone respected the authority of Henry VIII far more than they respected his son. The basic problem here is, again, nobody really respects Viserys's authority for numerous reasons - he doesn't hold the single most important symbol of Targareyn kingship, a dragon, for example.
@@TheGreatUnwashedThing Yeah, interesting point. I would argue that people were over the idea that Mary and Elizabeth were illegitimate and saw them as legitimate despite the legal shenanigans, but more than anything they just wanted a Tudor on the throne. That's why protestant England still supported the Catholic Mary I for the throne. It did tie back to the symbolism of being a Tudor and a descendant of Henry VIII.
With Viserys, his own Kingship comes from being of the direct male line so if he doesn't maintain that with his successors his line loses that and there would be no reason left why the throne shouldn't go back to Rhaenys and her descendants as they are still the most senior heirs to house Targaryen.
Henry VIII delegitimized his daughters mostly out of anger than fact, this is why nobody else saw it that way. He tried to bribe and persuade Mary into taking his side while he was chasing away her mother. He was so bitter about her refusal that he declared her illegitimate and a bastard by law. Almost the same with Elizabeth, he was so spiteful about her mother ( that he killed) he delegitimized her as well. But in this last case, it can be argued that she is indeed born out of wedlock (many didn't see Anne as Henry's true wife at best, a harlot at worst).
This is just another case of Rhaenyra wanting the world to bend to her will. She clearly sees the law as malleable when it comes to her. In fire and blood she asks Mandryd mooton to kill a girl under his roof thus committing the most taboo crime in the entire history of the Riverlands. Any person who knows even a single piece of Riverland custom and history knows why this is not a good idea.
As long as Targaryens have existed there have been two main archetypes. The one who is interested in uniting the kingdom like Jaehaerys, Daeron II, Aegon I. These Targaryens know and respect all the cultures of westeros and follow those laws very closely (even in their personal lives). Then there are Targaryens like Maegor, Viserys, Rhanyra and Daemon who think as long as they have dragons everyone is compelled to do everything they say. You can see the look of pure confusion on their faces when people try to make them to live by the rules of Westeros. Some fans agree with the latter and it comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of Aegon’s dream for westeros. He wanted the Targaryens to serve the realm and unite it not rule over the people like sheep. Look at Valyria and their colonies, look what happened to them. Aegon wanted to work in collaboration with the lords, that's why he still let lord Lannister keep his lands after he tried and failed to oppose Aegon.
All based on the word of a maester, and that letter lost Rhaenyra two dragonriders, no way did she actually write that letter, someone else wrote it, or the maester forged it himself.
@@chrisrubin6445 yeah sure, everything bad that is said about Rhaenyra in the books is not true 🤦♀️
@@xoxo7207 sure, and Daenerys is a bloodthirsty tyrant who eats babies and bathes in blood to maintain her beauty, because after all, someone said it.
@@chrisrubin6445 it seems like you have nothing smart to say, because your agrument makes no sense. in the novel we can see what kind of person Daenerys is (actually i love her) and in the "Fire and Blood" in form of a chronicle we are shown what kind of person is Rhaenyra. The fact that it is chronicle doesn't mean it is untrue. it would make no sense to create that books in Martin's place if half of it was wrong...
@@xoxo7207 in "Fire and Blood" we absolutely are not shown what kind of person Rhaenyra is, we are told. For this time period the sources are a patriarchal maester, a patriarchal septon who hates Rhaenyra, and a lying jester who is called unreliable by everyone. Id imagine if the maesters wrote a chronicle about Daenerys 100 years after her death, and that was your only source on her life, youd hate her too.
I never understood why after Jace was born why she and Laenor couldn’t hop on their dragons and make a quick trip to see his sister in Pentos. Who was she married to at the time?
The point is there were ways to avoid this but for some reason nobody could think of any which is mind boggling to me. Rhaenyra very knowingly put herself and her sons in a horrible situation and insulting everyone else’s intelligence was never going to get them out of it. Also, Laenor being a homosexual is no excuse for his laziness in this whole mess either. I mean all 3 boys are bastards. One can be forgiven. But 3?!?! Nobody is that dumb and yet both Rhaenyra and Laenor are.
She is. I support Rhaenyra because she was named heir, but she's spoiled and extremely short-sighted. For some reason, she felt her father would take care of everything....forever.
It's evident when they return to King's Landing as she's crying to her dying father asking for help after Rhaenys rebuked her. I'm sitting here like....what the hell did you expect?
She's only going to get more annoying to me as time goes on, I feel that already.
You are literally trying to justify corrective r&pe by saying laenor should’ve done more. Istg heteros never understand this shit, y’all see a homosexual being forced into an unnatural relationship bc of the societal views forced upon him. But instead of blaming the culture, you blame the person who’s forced to live under the culture that despises his homosexuality. The irony
i compare it to robb marrying jeyne instead of the frey girl. i don't think robb is a bad person for it and i don't judge him on a moral level. we, in the modern world, know these things are not moral failings and sympathise with why the characters do the things they do. but it's foolish to act like they don't have political consequences and implications in-universe.
Rhaenyra fucking up by having bastards could've been circumvented at least by... a lot if she just pulled her head out of the sand and thought about the truth for a second. They are bastards but _now what_ ? Pretending and telling the kids it "doesn't matter" is an issue. If she prepared them well enough the problems would at least be less of a problem because their competence ensures at least some support.
I love how no one is complaining about the Velaryons skin color; it worked out so beautifully!!
Yeah...I care more about it in things like Lord Of The Rings cause LOTRs is based almost entirely on European culture and history and is built on the basis of the European spirit. Even the map of Middle Earth is incredibly similar to how Europe was when the Doggerland was not flooded. And Tolkien even said he wanted to write a new mythology for his people so in my opinion it would be disrespectful to make a modern, cosmopolitan version of his story. But in the ASOIAF franchise, it's just a fantasy show that takes inspiration from everywhere so it doesn't really matter that much. Least not as much as it does in Tolkien's world. I also thought the actor was ok... sometimes I liked his acting and sometimes I didn't. But overall he did good.
@@adamoneil5317no it isn’t people that think like you make me wonder why humans continue to breed.
@@dimitrescucrncevic9746 yes it is...this is fact you goofball. It's based entirely on European mythology and history. Tolkien wanted to write a new mythology for his people.
Great video! As always 💛 I do like the interesting angle on the legalism of the term bastardy, but honestly the show is much more interested in the emotional impact of being a bastard, how it impacts Luke, Vaemond, Rhae, Vis, etc. If the show was into legalism,. It'd be a very different show, lol. And probably a better one.
The whole situation is just so sad. Tbh, I don't blame Rhaenyra in the slightest for having a self destructive streak after having her mom murdered, her dad totally propping her, switching randomly between fond neglect and almost malicious pressure, and, uh, the groomer uncle? Yeah girl, I don't care how rich or privileged you are, I get it, self sabotage, love it for you babe.
But when you bring another person into the picture, when you bring children into that process? Hooo boy, that officially turns your weakness from human and understandable to despicable. I don't want to hear the Cersei line about how "I love my children". Not in any way that matters. She did what her father did - she created children but used them as a prop for her own hurt feelings. Rhaenyra was another classic abusive tv parent, using the word love and their grief to hide their selfish priorities.
Oh yeah, and the factually false 'save the world' prophecy dagger getting dumped on her as a grieving preteen? Great reason for a little self destructiveness, as a treat
Facts, while Rhaenyra is a fuckup I also don't blame her for a great deal of her mistakes, I mean she had an absent father who basically killed her mother because he wanted a son so bad, who then switched to a 100% indulgent father who spent the rest of his life trying to make up for the death of her mother. She was also groomed for years by her only other living relative, she was married off to a gay man, and she probably was still a teenager thus not fully realizing the potential consequences of her actions when she first had Jace. LOL and as you said, in addition to all of that, she was told that only she could save the world. I'm not surprised shit went sideways.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree wholeheartedly however she keeps on making the same mistakes over and over again to the point where girl something gotta give. Despite all her flaws, I do like her character even through I wouldn’t never let her rule a farm house much less a whole kingdom
Also heard some people say, that Cole may be the father of Jace...XD
Its not 2023' its old school westeros!!
Amazing take!!
I do think Jace looks a lot like Cole. Considering the hatred he's developed for Rhaenyra, and the challenge he made to strong for clearly beings the kids' father, it would be quite ironic if he was Jace's biological father. We have no idea if she drank the tea.
@@SiobhanMooney ohhhh right! forgot that we never saw her drink! yea he does look like them both, so makes sense!
But it doesn’t works time wise
Aemond is older than Jace and by the time of the green wedding Alicent should have already been really visibly pregnant for Rhaenyra to be pregnant
👏🏾 thanks for mentioning this aspect of the conflict, rhaenyra (a white woman) is infact trying to steal what belongs to legitimate members of a black house, and it's downright diabolical that i see people cheering her for it on socials. Vaemond, while stupid, was rightfully raising his voice for himself and his kin but got taken out by that same yt woman's psychotic husband. I hope there's pushback bc of this event, by other velaryons in the future when they defect to the green side.
The problem with this is idea of black and white in a fictional medieval royal world betrays some modern notion of race...these people are royals yes they see race but that’s not the problem the problem is the bastard trying to steal inheritance
Don't forget the 5 Velaryons who get their tongue cut up for protesting this... Yikes.
@@vivideblois The problem with this is idea of black and white in a fictional medieval royal world betrays some modern notion of race...these people are royals yes they see race but that’s not the problem the problem is the bastard trying to steal inheritance
Vaemond got executed for the same reason Ned did. Pointing out an uncomfortable truth about the illegitimacy of Royal children.
Yet the fandom love Ned while despising Vaemond.
I don’t think it’s entirely a race thing, but one’s indignation is seen in a much more sympathetic light than the other’s
Except they're not black in the book, and it plays out the same. Rhaenyra still marries Laenor (a white man), is strongly implied to have bastard sons by Harwin Strong, and will attempt to have those sons inherit or recieve military support from the Velaryon family that they, not being Velaryons, are not entitled to.
You can't take a conflict with white characters, race swap some of them, then claim racism is involved because now some of the victims of that conflict are black. If they decided not to race swap the Velaryons for the show, the shows plot points wouldn't change.
Could you cover Harwin Strong? Like just do some explaining on his character and motivations.
Yeah I can put that on my list!
@@HillsAliveYT and why his brother had no hesitation in killing him
The Blackfyre Rebellions were caused by Aegon IV trying to socially delegitimize his son Daeron, a foil to Grandma Rhaenyra trying to legitimize her Strong Boys.
Even if they (Daemon/Strong Boys) were accepted, there would be any dissidents who would fight against them and they have Daeron/Corlys’ nephews to be the center of their rebellions, which will only end when the opposite heir is killed. It’s sad, but it’s also the most practical way to handle it in the world that they live in.
Maybe if Rhaenyra respected her own vows a little more, the lords of the realm would have respected their vows to her more seriously.
Seriously though, if Rhaenyra never changed the line of succession away from the strong boys, the Green branch of the family would inevitably be encouraged to take back what is rightfully theirs several generations in the future
Aegon’s very existence is the ultimate challenge to Rhaenyra’s whole line. If only she just did what Robert did and accepted them as bastards, she may have been able to take the thrown.
It was the deceit and lies that truly annoy me the most about the blacks. Just own up to your mistakes!
Another great video! ❤
Rhaenyra did respect her vows. She did try it just didn’t take. But as you said it was the insult to everyone’s intelligence is what is making this so bad. If you want to rule the 7 kingdoms, you can’t gaslight them to get your way.
@@jjh2456 Unfortunately my friend, she did not respect he marriage vows, or even uphold her promises of telling the truth about it to people at court.
I can appreciate the sexist double standard against female bastards that exists, but that does not excuse the hypocrisy of Rhaenyra demanding people remember their "vows".
Similarly, I wouldn't mind at all if she just said "yeh, they are bastards, I make Aegon the Younger my heir". But, she never does this and I can never support her lies because of this.
Yes, this is the continuing problem of the Strong boys as well, and is what once again made the Dance somewhat inevitable. It's not just a matter of a lot of people seeing Aegon as the true heir over Rhaenyra, it's that even if Rhaenyra took the throne, the first three people in line behind her are illegitimate children, ergo Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, and any of their legitimate children would be in mortal danger because their claims would be seen as even stronger than the Strong boys. And, because the Strong boys are believed to be illegitimate, this would apply basically all the way down the line as both sides of the rivalry had children, it's legit a self-sustaining problem that is pretty much guaranteed to end in war at some point anyway.
@@JamesHatfield49like Aegon the younger is the perfect compromise. Then she can legitimize Jace and have him be the Lord of Harrenhal and the Trident. Baela would still marry him and she would be the Lady of Harranhal. Then Rhaena would get Driftmark and Luc can marry her. All the stuff she is doing right now is unnecessary.
Superb analysis as always, Hill's.
If the Targaryens have proved anything, it's that the rightful King is the one who ends up sitting on the throne, irrespective of bloodline or divine provenance. There's a reason the death of many Targaryen Kings was followed by a brief civil war between the heirs - once you've grabbed the throne, it's much harder to shift you off it.
Part of the Problem is that it seems to have worked for some Houses in Westeros. The Tale of Bale the Bard in the Wildling Version hints towards the fact that a Daughter of one Lord Stark had an illegitimate Child that followed his Grandfather as Lord of Winterfell and later killed his biological Father on the Battlefield. I know it is a Song/a Tale and even Jon says that would never have happened, but it hints towards the fact that there are precedents that Bastards inherited Lordships and Castles. And even Catelyn is scared about Jon and his status as a Bastard because under certain circumstances it seems Bastards can inherit their Father's Lands and Titles. If Bastards were totally out of the line of Succession this Fear would not exist.
So yes legally spoken that the 3 Boys are Bastards and everything that happens could have been avoided with a few simple things: First they don't pretend that the Strong-Boys are Laenors Kids and Viserys legitimizes them as Strongs, Second after that make Laenas and Daemons Daughters to Corlys Heirs so that one of the Strong Boys marries one of them that way the military advantage of the Velaryon Fleet is still in Control of House Targaryen through Rhaenyras Bastards. Small Note I know Corlys wanted his family's Blood on the IT but I only state how the Targaryens could have avoided a lot of this succession crisis and are still in possession of the Velaryon Fleet.
Rhaenyra ascends the Throne after Viserys, marries Daemon and has her legitimate Children with him. Furthermore, it would have been a great advantage if she had sent one of her Sons or two as Wards to Driftmark that way the People of the Island would have been more open about the possibility that a Bastard marries Corly's Granddaughter and inheriting the Seat of House Velaryon.
In the Case of the parallels between the Dance of Dragons and the War of the Five Kings, the most vital difference in WOFK is that there is more than ONE Bastard who is in Line of succession. For Example, some Lords state that Sweet-Robin has nothing of his Father in him and many say that Harry the Heir is like a young Jon Arryn, given what we know what Lysa tells Sansa before she dies, it is possible that Littlefinger truly is Sweet-Robins Father. Many people say that Cersei's Children are nothing like their Father and additionally a lot of Low born Kids ran around who look like him in their younger years. Even Catelyn is worried because her children are so unlike Ned, with exception of Arya, that she is worried about them. Furthermore, I am unsure if that was you or another RUclipsr but it seems plausible that Jon Arryn didn't intend to find out about Cerseis Children, he was worried about his own Fatherhood and finding out about Cersei and her three Kids was just a side-effect.
I mean when he only searched to find out about Cersei's Children, how could Littlefinger convince Lysa to kill Jon with Tears of Lys, if there was nothing to worry about? I mean being unfaithful is one thing and being a Murderer is another. And we see that she is paranoid when Catelyn meets her and even Sansa.
Another Part of the Problem is: It seems the inheritance-Rules are not written down anywhere and I think when Bran becomes King he has a lot of Bastards he must legitimize. Just let's hope he also writes the Rules of inheritance down because they are so vague it would help to avoid another Succession crisis if everything was without a doubt totally clear.
The problem with the Strong boys were their looks. Rhaenyra should've looked for a different sperm donor. Someone Valyrian or from House Velaryon. Then Viserys' word and Laenor's recognition would've worked if the children possessed some traits from either houses and any complaint from the greens could just be treated as baseless, treasonous allegations. But what can we do? Rhaenyra was just that stupid and entitled.
LOL and honestly like girl, bless you for trying to live your best life but once Jace came out looking EXACTLY like Harwin maybe you shouldn't have two more kids with him.
If they kept House Velaryon the race they were originally depicted, then it could have been more ambitious situation. Which it seems it was originally intended to be. But by race-swapping them, the creators have opened a can of vipers. And because they are virtual no other black characters in all of Westeros but the Velaryons, Rhaenyra simply can’t sleep with a random brother. So this is the situation we get. It’s interesting how people overlook Rhaenyra’s entitlement and lack of sense.
@@Okkotsu86275 - But ANY other Valyrian would have done the trick. It wasn't that Rhaenyra couldn't have chosen anyone else, race swap or not.
But she didn't and she didn't do it THREE times and still expected to get away with it. And yes, that says a lot about the book character AND even more about its stans 🤣...
@@saymyname2417 That’s sure, but that actually makes sense which is something Rhaenyra lacks.
It requires Rhaenyra to put some kind of effort to go out and find a sperm donor that at least looks her and leanor which she doesn’t do at all. Harwin was a strong(pun intended) and good looking man that in close quarters with her. Doesn’t require any effort at all.
I think that being a bastard just increase the chance that people will not accept you as a king but will not make it impossible (Daemon Blackfyre had plenty of supporters even before Aegon IV legitimized him). And I think Rhaenerya did not want to legitimize the Strong boys since it would be like an admission of guilt that could make her lose supporters
Even in the real world, the “that is my kid because he was born to my wife while we were in wedlock” version of legitimacy only holds up as long as everyone plays along, and the illusion holds up. If the husband firmly states that the kids are totes his, and there’s no blatant indication to the contrary (ie, sufficiently similar traits, no inconvenient lovers hanging about, etc.) then it works, and may very well be in everyone’s best interest to affirm that. However, if people DON’T play along…. There’s a quote from Caesar that says “Caesar’s wife must be above suspicion” which plays really well here- the ruler’s wife has to be, not a moral paragon, but she can’t be in a position where people can accuse her of adultery, to prevent any doubt being cast on the parentage of her children. If people hadn’t been able to look at Cersei and Rhaenyra and say “if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, and it’s mother slept with a duck, then it’s probably a duck” then they might very well have been able to pull it off. Unfortunately for both, they could. And people did not keep their mouths shut, leading to two civil wars.
I actually felt so much sympathy for Vaemond. The man was wronged in so many ways. I can't stand Rhaenyra.
no? like sure he died an awful death but he just wanted to usurp his brother.
he could've made a case for his trueborn nieces but didn't.
@@4rtsyval his trueborn nieces wouldn't of carried on the family name in this universe. So he felt that his brother was going to die that it's up to him to carry on the family name.
This is a really good video. Question, would you consider doing a video on how her marrying Daemon actually made things worse?
I generally like Rhaenyra and all. But not so smart. She knows it's a different set of rules for the ladies. Succession is tricky enough (see Britain). She already has passed over Rhaenys as an example. She should've anticipated problems once her father got himself a young wife who might produce heirs. She should've picked a Laenor-like if he couldn't be compelled.
5:50 it doesn't work like that. The marriage is the most important factor in all of this. The husband would have to prove that his wife was unfaithful (and if he had, she would be either excluded from society or even decapitated, depending on the laws of the country and strength of her side of the family). But until the husband doesn't contest the legitimacy of the children, then they are by default assumed to be the husbands. You cannot on the 'whim' decide your children are not yours and until you do not contest it they legally are. It works like that even TODAY in a lot of countries.
a very good point, Aegon 4 called his eldest son illegitimate all the time and in public, and the only people who cared were ambitious Blackfyre cronies.
As an expert on the legal History of marriage, I have to point out the legitimacy is a LEGAL, not biological concept, and that understandings of biological reproduction in both medieval history and historical fantasy were so murky as to be laughable. Thus, legally, the "Strongs" are Velaryons.
As a mixed-black woman with white mother and a white husband, and a ton of racial admixture in her family, I would also add that the birth of "white-looking/passing" (race is a social construct) children born to a white mother and a a black father is not unheard of, although the casting makes it clear what the producers/HOTD team were going for. But Viserys makes this point himself on the show.
Also while you linger on the example of Henry the eight, the example of Edward the fourth who was accused of being a bastard and whose children were also accused of being bastards after his death might have been more pertinent. (His children would be considered bastards because of a pre-contracted marriage, not because anyone denied that he was their father. See LEGAL CONCEPT).
Because accusations of being a cuckhold were terribly damaging historically, it actually wouldn't benefit a man to question his wife's offspring, particularly with money and power at stake. Such accusations were more likely to come after the man died, (or was assumed dead as is the case here). In that case Rhaenyra possibly shot herself in the foot by faking Laenor's death, as was easier to defend her son's legal legitimacy as issue of a legitimate and sanctioned union while he was alive. Accusations of Illegitimacy also only come to a head after Robert's death.
When your husband is black and you both have silver hair but the child comes out a ginger
I absolutely love how green this channel is
And level-headed about it, acknowledging their flaws too.
i also feel like making rhaenis blonde shoots a similar foot. as we found out from jon arryn the baratheon seed is strong, but in the show they don’t have the “well look at gran she’s brunette” (and don’t break out the punnets cos i think genes don’t work just like they do in our world (take tullys red hair being dominant in books))
There is a very important thing you have missed out - Pride and appearences and the consequence of that. It is mentioned in the show itself in the conversation between Rhaeyns and Corlys when she suggests settling Driftmark on their granddaughters. She talks about lineage through blood and Corlys states history remembers names. In terms of history that in many cases what men have as legacy - names.
True lineage can only be proven through a maternal line, but men hold physical power. The lose of face for a man in feudal power due to the public news that his wife willingly cuckholded him with someone of lower or equal status could lead to lose of face, but it gives the appearance he can't control his household and that would translate into the rest of his holdings - it would weaken him to the point of replacement would be a good idea. The lose of face that Laenor couldn't keep his wife in line would in turn hit Corlys better to say the boys are Velaryons and influence them in the long run to keep Driftmark stable after he is gone.
Giving Driftmark to his legitmate granddaughters means he can't control who sits on the throne as he can't influence the upbringing of their potential husbands or their family agendas and you can see that after the dance when his granddaughter runs away from a forced marriage and runs to marry her 'cousin' who has been given the driftmark throne. The only person at Driftmark who benefits from outing the Strong boys is Vaemond.
House Targaryen batting at nil with potentially good rulers😭
Rhaenyra? My sister did not think of the long term consequences of having children with a man as white as she while married to a biracial man and isolated numerous nobles because Viserys always bailed her out.
Daemon and Aemond? Yeah no.
Aegon? Sexual assaulter.
Nary a Targ that you can truly advocate for without doubt in their potential for a good reign no wonder it goes from bad to worse for this House
I didnt think that Rhaenyra was a very good mother. Those boys should have been fluent in valeryian at an early age, but they weren't. Luc should have been a ward of driftmark early so that he would fit in and learn to sail. But he wasn't. I figured Daemon never taught the boys to fight at an early age because they were a threat to him getting to the throne. Easily to be cut down. Those boys could have learned to fight from the best, but weren't. The scene where Daemon stops Jac from going for Aemond shows that. He knows Jac knows nothing about fighting and that Aemond would have wiped the floor with him. Why? Why were these boys not taught anything at an early age? It proves to seal their fates because of it. His choking a woman he loves shows that he still wants the throne. All her children are bastards. Leanor is technically still alive when she marries daemon and has children with him. So thats 6 bastards. You would think that she would be smart enough not to do this, but she does what she wants at the cost of several lives.
I asked about the implications of the race bending in a live chat on the night of the series premier and the room got real quiet. Nice to see someone engaging with that (from a good-faith stance, of course) 😊
You know, that is an interesting point that the father can declare a child illegitimate even if they are actually his kid. It DOES get brought up in the books, in Fire and Blood. Rhaenyra's grandson, Aegon the unworthy, by her youngest son with Daemon, becomes king. He's married to his sister, but she loves their brother (Aemon the Dragon Knight, a member of the King's Guard). Aegon spends all his time declaring the his son is illegitimate, favoring his actual badtards to the point that his death leads to the Blackfyre rebellions. The interesting thing is that it's really implied in Fire and Blood, The World of Ice and Fire, Dunk and Egg, and even the main series that no one actually believes his son is illegitimate. Just that Aegon didn't like him and was DECLARING him illegitimate.
But half the realm DIDN'T accept that. They fought for him and his throne in the civil war that followed. And even the people who fought for Blackfyre's were more interested in the fact that Daemon Blackfyre was given the sword Blackfyre and was the better warrior. Less focused on Aegon declaring his son illegitimate.
Anyway, that was a long winded way of saying that it looks like the Targaryens really try to go out there and declare their kids legitimate or not based on their feelings. But Westeros DOESN'T work like that. And it's NOT accepted.
I still think the issue of Driftmark being inherited by Luke really is resolved by his engagement to Baela (long story short from my previous comment on another video: girls DO inherit family seats, except the Iron Throne, and the girls get it through their mother before Vaemond would). However, it would really help if she actually legitimized them instead of pretending that they were legitimate (though, that would pose another web of complex political manuvering).
As for GRRM not doing a good job of actually casting doubt on parentage of kids that lead to the wars - I actually think he did a better job than the TV shows. Less people believe that Cersei's kids are bastards in the books. It's a convenient excuse to get a preferred king on the throne for some people. The law itself is less important than the USE of the law toward one's own desired outcomes.
The/a sad thing is, seems like in our world, there were a surprising number of monarchies throughout time where the rules of succession were not as iron clad clear as one would think. And just like in ASOIAF......well, we saw the problems all that created.
I've often thought about what I thought the mistakes of Viserys, Rhaenyra. and "The Old King", were. Now, I'm beginning to think on how Aenys 1 messed everything up. Imagine if, upon assuming the Iron Throne, he decided "lets outlaw Targaryen multiple marriages and sibling/siblings of parents marriages and create an ironclad succession system". Perhaps combine it with rules for succession to the iron throne that state "you can't take the heirship away from one kid and send it to the next one one the list on your deathbed/with a few witnesses". Like maybe the rules are "has to be in public in front of lots of people, heirship goes to next person in order, AND you can't disinherit multiple heirs at once. You can do one, but then have to wait 6 months before doing again". And saying, "you know what? lets change the ceremony that installs the heirship to just having a religious figure announce it right outside the room where the kid was born right after it happened".
To say nothing of clarifying rules that state "ok, if we take the heirship from one kid, but then want to restore them to the line, here is how they are reintegrated". Perhaps the rule is "if someone is restored to the line, they are at bottom". And figuring out where they are vs. legitimized bastards (and yes, everything about this shows one of the big problems with this kinda system. From a governing perspective, you can see why a monarch might think that if the third or fourth person in line for instance would be a better ruler, they should rule. But its also incredibly cruel to that person's spouse and children).
Sure he would had to have been smart about dealing with Meagor and Visenya. But there's hypothetically a scenario where, even if their rebellions, disease, etc. means we still end up with Viserys's uncle being heir and dying, it could have already been law that of course the heirship would go to our alternate Rhenys and the whole Dance could have been avoided!
Contrary to what some people think, homosexual men(i.e. men attracted exclusively their own gender) can in fact conceive children with a female partner. I don't understand why Laenor was never able to do so.
I don’t think that criticizing Rhaenyra for stealing the inheritance of a black family holds up at all. It applies a real world lens to a world that doesn’t have the same history or rules as us (ironically what this video criticizes).
In order for this to be true and racist, there would need to be a system discriminates against “black people” as a group. There is no evidence of this in the books and especially not in the show. The Velaryons are well respected, powerful nobility and nobody questions their Valyrian heritage, or considers them them less Valyrian due to their skin.
Furthermore, it doesn’t look like Westeros even considers black people as a group in the way that we do in our world. If they did, we would expect them to treat “black people” in a similar way as they do Valyrians, Andals, First Men or even Dornish. This is not the case, the Velaryons and Targaryens clearly see themselves as kin. And if you consider comments from the writers where they say that Valyria was a large contingent and it’s not inconceivable that some of the people who lived there had dark skin, it seems pretty established that “black people” aren’t a racial group in Westeros.
Don’t get me wrong, I do think that Rhaenyra’s actions were problematic, but calling them racist ignores the world that she lives in, and misunderstands what racism is in our world.
Well Rhaenyra isn't a real person and she doesn't "live" in any world, which is why I think that the racism criticism is valid. The show is created by mostly white people who live in a modern society with a lot of institutional racism, so to alter the storyline in order to present yet another fictional portrayal of institutional racism while presenting the white people who are attempting to usurp a black family as victims of members of that family who don't want to be usurped is a really relevant criticism in my humble film-criticism-degree-having opinion.
Hence why she called it metatextual
Having them out of wedlock put Rhaenyra at risk , danger and also her children
How much do you want to bet that future seasons will make this argument irrelevant by uhh "revealing" that "no no, Alicent just gaslit everyone and Jace, Luke, and Joff just happened to lose the genetic lottery." And then points to a family tree for the sole reason of "Everything the Greens do are pure EVIL."
'power resides where men believe it resides'
I think it's a testament to Martin's writing that we, as fans, get stuck in these arguments of legitimacy and bastardry. Meanwhile we ignore the larger question of how this is a terrible system to organise supreme executive power. The narrative geniusly constrains the question to remove the context. Arguing over whether Luke/Jake or Stannis/Tommen is legitimate is skilfully hiding the question of "Should the country be run on the basis of who nutted who?"
Martin does a great job of making us accept the Westerosi system as a given that we never question the legitimacy of the system itself. However if we can pull back enough we can see the similarities with our own systems. We get too tied in the argument of red vs. blue (or green vs. black) that we never question the fight itself. We don't look at the underlying principles but instead accept the narrative and choose a side.
Mathematically, Rhaenyra is 3/8ths Velaryon, so her children have Velaryon blood regardless of their sire. And the betrothal to Baela and Rhaena fully cemented the bloodline. (Not that I would generally encourage cousin marriage, as biologically, they are still first cousins once removed, through Rhaenyra and Daemon, not Laenor and Laena.)
I know mathematicaly is not what matters most with family loyalty, but it is still a technical relation.
1:24 - this comes from the fact that a lot of folks are simply not familiar with the medieval concept of bastardy and why it mattered to that society and are instead trying to apply a modern social stance towards it. Clearly yes to our world, the kids are perfectly valid considering Laenor as good as adopted them, so for our modern sense of it they are perfectly legitimate, however in such a blood-focused society like in ASOIAF, the paternity fraud is a massive issue. It is also helpful to keep in mind that marriage in the modern sense is not the same as marriage in ASOIAF, where marriage is not two consenting adults choosing to legally merge their households and finances officially under the approval of the state, but is a contract made between aristocratic houses that the heirs of the marriage will have blood ties to both houses. Rhaenyra’s marriage to Laenor also crucial because it merges the claim of her line to Rhaenys’s line, which doubles down on the legitimacy of her succession in a legal sense, so her kids not being Laenor’s is not only an abuse of that promise made to the Velaryons that Laenor’s blood claim is recognized, but also a breach of contract that the next monarch sitting the Iron Throne will have Velaryon blood, both of which are why even though they are Rhaenyra’s blood children and thus have a blood claim to her titles, their claim to her title is weaker than if they were Laenor’s blood kids. And of course, to House Velaryon, the idea that Driftmark might pass to a person without Velaryon blood is inexcusable so long as a legitimate claimant remains alive, which is why the adoption concept also doesn’t hold much water considering that adoption of a new heir was usually a distant cousin and not some rando unless there is literally no blood relation that can be reasonably found. An example of a valid heir adopting under most circumstances would be perhaps if Daemon and Laena had had a son, which would interestingly satisfy both blood relations in regards to the Iron Throne, although Laenor/Corlys would likely adopt a distant Velaryon cousin for Driftmark proper in such a scenario.
It’s interesting, if not unsurprising due to “protagonist-bias” that people do not treat Rhaenyra’s actions and her sons with Harwin with the same reaction that they do for Cersei and her children. In both cases they involve women understandably choosing the father of their children and passing off bastards as legitimate, but the difference in the fandom reaction is telling. As a reminder, Robert was fairly apathetic to Cersei’s kids at all and even if he disliked Joffrey, took no interest in choosing one of his own bastards over them. Now one could argue that if Robert had known they weren’t legitimate, he might have reacted differently, so it’s not a perfect analog of Laenor treating the boys as his own. (But again, in an ASOIAF perspective, Laenor does not strictly have the right to make that decision against the interests of his house, even as his father’s heir) And again, even though Rhaenyra’s kids have a far more reasonable claim to the Iron Throne than Cersei’s kids to the Iron Throne due to being Rhaenyra’s blood, compare Rhaenyra’s kids to Robert’s bastards instead, if he had tried to make one of his bastards the heir to the Iron Throne, it would be a breach of the marital contract (because that’s what marriage means in this society) he made with the Lannisters (particularly Tywin) that his heir would share blood with them.
If one agrees that Joffrey/Tommen are illegitimate heirs to the Iron Throne, then there is no standing you can have to say that Rhaenyra’s kids have any right to being called Velaryons, and due to a similar breach of marital contract as Robert and his bastards, they have no valid claim to inherit the Iron Throne over any trueborn claimants in the line of succession. Which of course the valid line of succession also depends on your perspective. If you recognize Viserys appointing Rhaenyra as heir, then her brother Aegon is her heir up until the birth of her sons with Daemon, at which point Rhaenyra’s heir becomes her son Aegon. Of course if you don’t recognize Viserys’s maintenance of Rhaenyra as heir over his son Aegon, then this is all a moot point anyway.
This could all be avoided if Viserys named them trueborn and legitimized them properly. But he could not do that without admitting to his daughter the heirs escapades. It would not have made for a stable succession. He really had his balls in a vice. I think by all intent he obviously favored them so It must have been agonizing. Wanting to accept them as they are and acknowledge them, but knowing that it would only seal their doom himself.
Fuedal politics are the real villain.
Text dump inc. Okay so, I'm team black ALL the way, but I don't believe those boys deserve the throne when Vissy T passes. I think she might, but the boys are a problem. I feel bad for them, I share Corlys' view of them, they're just good lads doing their best. Rhaenyra is oftentimes a fucking moron, so she birthed those poor boys into this situation. When it comes to the war, and the argument as to who the rightful heir is, it all comes back to Viserys again.
See, ultimate primogenature was established by Viserys numerous times as the current way of things. (it was allowed for him to make Rhaenyra the heir instead of Daemon for example) By ceding and swearing to Rhaenyra, all those lords accepted this as the law and lawfully bound themselves to Rhaenyra. There was no unlawfulness here, this cannot be disputed as the law because swearing oaths like the ones the Lords of Westeros did actually have legal weight and would usually include written agreement to this factor. So Rhaenyra in my eyes is the lawful Queen, but what about them boys? Here's the point of this little blurb. I would argue that though Viserys actually legally granted Driftmark's inheritance to Lucerys and Corlys agreed, he did not actually do this for Jace. Jace is in almost every way an illegitimate heir when Viserys dies all because grandpa couldn't write the goddamn law down and relied entirely on the rule of binding precedent, of which is only really persuasive at best to a lawmaker in the same tier of the court- which is what the Greens have taken control of. Lucerys, bastard or not, was granted Driftmark. Rhaenyra was granted Dragonstone and the Crownlands IE Iron Throne. Rhaenyra could have, once she was queen, massively influenced and likely swayed the deciding parties. In control of the law and the throne before Rhaenyra can take it legitimately, the Greens and all their vassals are legitimised and Rhaenyra is delegitimised by rule of the new decided inheritence law: basic primogenature.
This whole fucking war is a CK3 rebellion to change the succession laws but when they started out the rebels got the capital region and Rhaenyra's sick prestige bonuses plumeted, the disputed heritage debuff hit Jace and fucked his relations with the vassals and we all know that it's always family or very close vassals that end up leading the rebel faction past that power threshold and ruin your shit. It's an inevitability because Viserys probably missed a bunch of goddamn notifications about the succession because he was busy spamming the seduce scheme on Alicent and the befriend scheme on literally everyone. For fucks sake guys, Otto literally offered them a basic surrender outcome for the blacks when he offered Dragonstone, because they were bumping her down a couple ruler tiers. #GRRMplaysck3 #justkiddingthiswasnormal #penis
TLDR the war is literally unavoidable because Viserys half assed the job and half the country just wanted to not deal with that legal fuckfest so they decided to make a CK3 rebel faction that was super well coordinated and formidable to hopefully avoid the whole lot of it.
Now this is a great take. Viserys was hella incompetent in so many ways that all of his children and grandchildren would be warring with each other upon his death.
I am not questioning your virtue lady. I am just denying it's existence - Lord Tyrion Lannister
Likening Rhaenyra’s children to any of those examples ignores one (at least morally, but arguably also legal, and to an extend even practically) key difference:
In none of those cases do both legitimately married "parents" *knowingly* acknowledge the bastards as legitimate. The problem about Joffrey isn’t just that he’s the result of sex out of wedlock, or incest, it is that Robert does not know or suspect that he is, and if he did, most certainly would not be fine with it. Laenor knows full well the Strong boys are Harwin’s children, he’s literally there when Harwin comes to visit them and spend quality family time with them.
How obviously the Strong boys are illegitimate actually plays to Rhaenyra’s advantage here, because she can make the (implicit or, if it ever became such, even explicit) case that everyone relevant must have been perfectly aware of their status, yet accepted them regardless. Which is of course exactly what happened, so this is both a practical argument, and the literal truth (both of which are relevant, one way or another). Laenor and Corlys accepted the children as Velaryons, knowing full well that they were not genetically Velaryons, in fact having basically given their implicit consent to their conception even beforehand ("we both dine as we see fit", "you know his true nature"). Pretending that an illegitimate child is not illegitimate while knowing their true parentage is, after all, exactly what legitimization constitutes, so of course one could argue that legally, this does already represent legitimization.
As for why Rhaenyra doesn’t simply have them legitimized the way we see other bastards being legitimized, I think that’s actually literally untrue. Having them legitimized in that way is literally what she is doing; she is having the king say that they are legitimate, thereby making them legitimate. Where is the law that in order to legitimize a bastard, it first needs to be publicly announced that they were illegitimate to begin with?
That isn’t actually how legitimizations are handled in ASOIAF, and it’s misunderstanding the underlying post-factual, orwellian nature of legitimization itself. Legitimization is an affirmation that someone is legitimate by the highest available authority, in this case the king. Legitimization is pretending that the true parentage of a child isn’t their true parentage, has never been their true parentage to begin with, ans forcing everyone else (by royal decree) to do the same. So when seeking to legitimize someone, acknowledging and publicly proclaiming that they are illegitimate isn’t just unnecessary, it is actively counterproductive. When Ramysay Bolton was legitimized, the royal decree doesn’t read "you, illegitimate child of Roose Bolton and some whore he raped, shall from now on be considered legitimate, even though of course really, you are not", it simply states "from this day on, you are Ramsay Bolton, trueborn son of Roose Bolton", and that’s it. No public undermining of the point it is trying to make, simply (re)affirming that point to make it clear to any who might question it that that would be in violation of the king’s will.
So the reason she doesn’t do it the way suggested isn’t merely that "it’s obvious stating their true parentage represents a threat" as that this would run counter to the very notion of legitimization itself.
This isn’t the same as the modern concept of amnesty of immunity for a crime that often makes it a prerequisite that one confesses to the crime freely before it it prosecuted (for example some states will allow you to avoid punishment for tax evasion if you confess to it, because that creates an incentive to do so and pay your taxes, which is in the state’s interest, but only as long as the state hasn’t already found out about your tax evasion on its own). And even then oftentimes one would also justifiably seek and get some sort of official assurance of that amnesty BEFORE explicitly confessing to that crime, and not after (which in Rhaenyra’s case she doesn’t have, as even if she can assume Viserys knows of and is fine with her children’s parentage at least on some level, what she can not assume is that with his debilitated state and the Hightowers’ influence over him he would still end up officially reaffirming their legitimacy if she first weakened that position by publicly announcing them as bastards). It is not about evading punishment for crimes or incentivizing confessions that are useful to someone, it is simply about public perception of legitimizy. In this case, the public perception is that being aware of the children’s biological parentage, the four people in the realm who mattered most (Viserys, Corlys, Laenor and Rhaenyra) all decided to consider them legitimate anyway, thereby legitimizing them.
After taking the throne herself and elimitating all challenges to it, Rhaenyra could of course have "officially" legitimized them again, simply to be safe, if continuing to consider them her legal heirs after taking the throne doesn’t already constitute legitimization anyway. And perhaps she would have planned to, at some point when her own claim was secure and she wouldn’t have to worry about further undermining it by publicly confessing to sex out of wedlock. Either way, publicly acknowleding her children are bastards, only to then legitimize them, would have achieved nothing and only further weakened her own position, and potentially endangered all their lifes, by breaking the concept of legitimization by saying out loud what a legitimization is supposed to bury.
This whole debate and all the arguments in the video seem to be ignoring this rather simple point. They are legitimate, because both parents and all the living people they are inheriting from are aware of their biological parentage, and still recognize them as their child regardless.
Calling this theft and trying to push in some allegations of a racist narrative is truly absurd in this case, firstly the Velaryons’ race is never a subject in the series, underlining that the modern, real-world concept of race simply isn’t a thing in Westeros, and secondly because you can’t steal something that is being freely given to you. If I walk into a store, announce that I am going to take and eat an apple without paying, and the storeowner sees me do it, doesn’t do anything to attempt to stop it, and, most importantly, shows unambiguous, uncoerced and informed consent to that, then it is not theft, it is a mutual agreement that they are letting me have that apple. The same would go for the inheritance of Rhaenyra’s children, at least in a moral and legal sense (the practical sense, also unlike what is claimed here, is debatable). Now, if there was a clear, relevant law about the inheritance in Westerosi society, that would be one thing. But all the relevant legal precedents are really ambiguous, murky and/or simply not known to us, the reader- or viewership of this story, and, as if that hadn’t been enough, at the whim of an absolutist monarchy (currently the same one that has already acknowledged Rhaenyra’s children as legitimate, and also the same one that claims their own exceptionalism whenever it is convenient anyway, and generally tends to get away with it).
Whether they are still bastards or not is arguing about semantics. Is a legitimized bastard still a bastard? In a legal sense no, because legally they are a legitimate child, but in a factual sense, of course yes, because that legitimization does not change biological reality, merely make it irrelevant in most regards and as long as enough people believe that it does.
But the argument here isn’t about biology (as Corlys so aptly put it, "history doesn’t remember blood, it remembers names"), it is about politics and about morals, and about how stupid and/or immoral some people consider Rhaenyra to be for passing of her children with Harwin Strong as Laenor’s. For all the talk that we shouldn’t be transferring modern conceptions of morals onto the medieval-inspired world of asoif, this is ignoring that we also cannot transfer a strictly legalistic perspective based on real world history, or even (uncodified) westerosi law onto it and claim absolute truth.
As Littlefinger would say, "power believe where people believe it resides". If a king saying a bastard is now legitimate can make them legitimate just like that (practically it does when, and only when, enough other people agree with that sentiment even after that king and whoever those legitimized children are supposed to inherit from have died, and their claim to legitimacy has held up) then why is Rhaenyra supposedly so stupid for believing that herself (the future queen), her husband, the lord of Driftmark, and the king all unanimously considering the Strong boys legitimate children does not do exactly that, make them legally and morally legitimate children and heirs of herself and Laenor Velaryon? That the Hightowers and their supporters, seeking to push their own claim on the throne, would contest this is no argument, as they would contest it no matter what. Heck, they contest Rhaenyra’s own claim to begin with, despite being (almost unambiguously, for once) in the wrong on all accounts. They can’t claim moral superiority, even though they try to (while having illegitimate children might be considered immoral, the whole reason why does not apply here-it’s not cheating if all the parties involved consent to it, and even agree to consider resulting children their legal heirs), nor legal superiority (Rhaenyra is legal heir, which they are willing to contest for explicitly acknowledged, selfish reasons) nor can they claim any "right of conquest" (since they have not demonstrated military superiority, on the contrary, they end up losing the war eventually).
11:22 this is both the funniest and most logical statement I have ever heard
The other thing I think calls the whole "illegitimacy" into question is the wording of the marriage agreement between Rhaenyra and Laenor. Specifically that their children will be Targaryens.
So it would seem to me that their claim to the Iron Throne rests on them being Targaryens, not Velaryons, and at the very least I don't think anyone's denying that Rhaenyra birthed them.
In that case, while their claim to Driftmark might rest on it, I'd say their claim to the throne remains solid either way.
But in a wider context of Westeros culture it's been clearly established that a King can declare a bastard to be a trueborn child and Viserys didn't just declare it, he made declaring otherwise punishable by the loss of your tongue. So I do support the argument that, when literally everyone who has the right to disinherit them is insisting they be recognised and has done so consistently throughout their lives, it's time for everyone who have no horse in the race to shut up and go with the lie.
Laeonor says, publicly and privately, that he loves them as his own sons. Lord Corlys does the same recognising them as grandsons.
If there'd been contention from them, that would be one thing. But the fact is the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children is only an issue to the people who already have an issue with her, and while it wasn't smart of her to give them the ammunition given how numerous those people are, ultimately their legitimacy does little to nothing to change how the overarching story plays out if you rewrite it with Rhaenyra having sons that so clearly belong to Laenor that it looks like she cloned him twice.
I havent read the books but from watching the show there appears to be a disconnect between Rhaenyra's behavior and how she is characterized. She doesn't appear to be in love with Strong. What they had was not a romance. If her husband wasn't able to fulfill his duty she could have found someone that atleast resembled her husband. She didn't bother because she didn't think she had to. SHE seems to think that simply saying they are legitimate should be enough to get everyone in line. She seems to think she should be able to sleep with whomever she wants regardless of the consequence. She isn't like the other women she is a Targaryen. It doesn't matter who her children father is, it matters who thier mother is.
She even throws her husband away and marry her uncle as soon as it was convenient for her. Targaryens might be down with incest but the rest of westrso society clearly isn't.
Rhea comes off as a fairly sympathic character, especially by modern standards, but her actions seems to be driven primarily by selfishness and entitlement. Her short sightedness also doesn't lead me to believe she'd make a very good leader.
The world of Ice and Fire is more explicit about Harwin being their rumored father. People at court suspected it despite rhaenys having dark hair in the books. they intentionally point out that Jace, Luke and Joffrey look NOTHING like rhaenyra or laenor and they still suspected Harwin of being the father based on their looks. while they never list harwin's features, they do say that people looked at Harwin and compared his looks to the "velaryon" boys and formed their opinion based on that. Rhaenys' very distinct baratheon coal black hair was never a valid defense for the Strong Boys having brown hair.
The world of Ice and Fire quote:
"Rhaenyra was of the blood of the dragon, and Ser Laenor likewise had the aquiline nose, fine features, silver-white hair, and purple eyes that bespoke his own Valyrian heritage. Why, then, did Jacaerys have brown hair and eyes, and a pug nose? *Many looked at them, and then at the hulking Ser Harwin Strong-now chief of the blacks, and Rhaenyra’s constant companion-and wondered.* Rhaenyra bore two more sons-Lucerys (called Luke) and Joffrey- during her marriage to Ser Laenor Velaryon, and each one was born healthy and strapping, with the brown hair and pug nose that neither Rhaenyra nor Laenor possessed"
Is it possible that harwin is not the father? Sure. Maybe there's some random soldier who looks more like them than Harwin who simply did not spend enough time with rhaenyra publicly to be noticed as her potential secret lover. but that man sure as hell is not Laenor. Harwin's or not they definitely not laenor's and that's what matters.
I think in most societies, if a man claimed a child as legitimate he was treated as legitimate, it was also because the child he was not extremely obviously not his. I expect in Westeros history for there to be rumors about Ceresei's children, but I think everyone was willing to accept them as legit not just because Robert said so, but because they didn't really study genetics or think it odd that the children didn't have any of his features. They clearly just took after their mother. It was only due to Jon Arryn's research that anyone came to question them and they see that black hair should be dominant over blond hair. But Robert Baratheon was a white man married to a white woman. The kids are white and don't obviously look like some other man. They look like their mom. It all checks out by those standards. Cersei and her kids would be perfectly safe if not for Jon Arryn studying the matter for some reason that I've forgotten.
Rhaenyra with the race bending it does not check out at all. They should have brownish skin, and they don't. Both parents have white hair, but somehow these kids' hair is brown (which is probably why there were rumors in the books as white hair + white hair you would think would equal white hair). The way Rhaenyra did it, the kids are very obviously not her husband's. Men who try to claim children as theirs when it is that obvious that they're not tend to be insulted as being less of a man because they're being complete fools to not see that their wives are cheating on them. People didn't understand genetics well, but they did understand when you didn't look like either of your parents that something wasn't right.
As for Henry VIII, he was in a very specific time and place where people weren't even sure what he could do. He'd had religiously contentious marriages, so if they weren't valid, then the kids weren't valid despite being physically his. That's really how he changed legitimacy around: He changed whether the marriages he'd had were to be considered valid. Most kings after that point did not have religiously weird marriages followed by changing religion midlife.
I appreciate everyone not fawning over Rhaenyra in the comments. It got really old during the last season.. I'm honestly Team Green and her bastard kids need to go
My only dispute is that the Lannisters weren’t expecting Sansa being disinherited to hold up against the law, but Tywin, as I recall, states it outright. They just don’t expect the Northmen to care once Ned’s trueborn grandson pops up to overthrow the Bolton’s after a couple of decades.
There is a part that should be adressed : if by their looks only it is obvious that they're not Laenor's children, then people should realize that Laenor knows it too.
And yet he considers them as his.
Everyone is aware that he's gay.
I wonder what would've happened if he admitted they weren't biologically his children, but reaffirmed that they are legitimately his. They would have the same status as any legitimized bastard right ?
So we can guess that then, much more people would accept them.
If the father accepting the child as their own, then Joffrey was the one true king, and Ned did commit treason and he was justifiably killed. This fandoms acceptance of Targaryen exceptionalism is ridiculous.
16:00 - to be fair, the War of the Five Kings is not so much that *everyone* believed that Joffrey was illegitimate, that was really only important for Stannis’s claim (and to an extent, Renly’s), as without Joffrey tyrannically executing the Warden of the North despite promising the court he would be merciful, memories of the mad king were enough to see the realm bleed, as it is uncertain that Ned would have told Robb to support Stannis had he been allowed to go to the wall, as it’s possible that Ned would have wanted to avoid another massive war that bled the North dry, and without the unpopularity of Joffrey, Stannis would likely not have had any support to revolt or even have his claim of Joffrey’s bastardy be supported, considering that in-universe Stannis says he saw it in the flames of his red god or whatever (IIRC) and that isn’t much beloved by most of Westeros. Even with Joffrey’s tyranny, the Reach only really acted in their own interest with Renly trying to get Margery as Queen, comfortable in the fact that with the Westerlands draining their manpower against Robb, the Crown would be unlikely to be able to pursue harsh punishments against the Reach due to being the most powerful remaining kingdom by far, and of course they gambled correctly considering with Margery wed to Joffrey then Tommen in succession with Mace as Tommen’s hand, it is clear that the Reach doesn’t much care about the claims of bastardy. Considering that also once Joffrey is dead, and Stannis and Renly are more or less routed and the much more agreeable Tommen is on the throne, Tommen is considered fully legitimate by the realm, it is clear that the realm is very much amenable to accepting that Joffrey was just a bad apple, Stannis and Renly were overly ambitious uncles, and Tommen is a good Baratheon King, so as far as the narrative is concerned, the legitimacy of the kids of Cersei is not quite as central as the fandom thinks of it, as it’s more a combo of Joffrey pulling an Aerys II that gives Stannis and Renly the support for their claims, and that gives Robb reason to rebel, and of course the Iron Islands rebel at the drop of a hat, they likely don’t care much at all if Joffrey is Robert’s son or not.
The Lords of Westeros disinheriting children happened some of the time prior to Jaehaery’s the First reign on the behest of Queen Alysanne, where he made the Widow’s law to protect widow’s or Queen Alysanne Law’s to the same status as before the man died because the children or family of the lords who died would or cut her allowance,Clothing, Servants and leaving the Woman no better than an Improvised pesant, also a lord might favor the children of his second plus wives over the first plus wives and thus disinherit his other children like The Mad King threaten to do to Rhaegar in favor of Viserys, So the King made sure that the Oldest Son or Daughter(if No sons) would inherit first before any Childers from a second plus wife.
Oh yeah that's fair I guess I should have been clearer on that, I was thinking specifically of when the lord/husband was still alive they could theoretically just say one of their children was not legitimate just because they didn't like them or didn't want them to inherit for some reason. Where my mind was going with that was essentially that if the assumed father gets to decide a child's legitimacy, there are a lot of ways that power could be abused, which is something we don't really see in the story at large and seems to demonstrate that that's not how things work.
@@HillsAliveYT That makes sense, because Adoption isn’t a thing in Westeros, I was just speaking on how lords of the past did disinherit some of their acknowledge and legitimate children and also Kings can set aside a Marriage, which would presumably make the kids of said set aside marriage illegitimate, disinherit from the line of succession or come after only the new wife(s) children like when the house of Gardner King set aside his wives for a Hightower Bride to bring Oldtown into the Reach Kingdom, or how Sharra Arryn wanted to marry Aegon the Conqueror and make her son his heir, as she probably assumed Rhaeneys and Visenya Targaryen were infertile as they at this point were in their mid 20’s and he’d been married a while with no children from either woman, King Aegon IV hinted at rumors that his heir was father by his brother Prince Aemon the dragon knight which spurred the feud between him and Daemon Blackfyre, which he legitimatized and could have supplanted him as heir over His firstborn, but he like you suggested probably knew that would be against common law and practice in Westeros and would upset the balance and peace, although it would have been an interesting twist on the Blackfyre rebellion of Daemon was declared heir by the King or by a Council like the one for Rhaeneys and Viserys to determine who rules as a lot of the Westeros lords favored prince Daemon Blackfyre
btw another question you should look into is, whether rhaenyra's children from daemon are legitimate if lenor is still alive when they were born( as is the case in show ) ? shouldn't her marriage with daemon be invalid if lenor being alive came to light? i noted , in show, she was the one ( far more than her father and otto ) who was repeatedly reminding daemon he was married to his 1st wife, before she was killed by him. up that point, she mentions that in every conversation with daemon in show except during the night out ( and funeral of her mother ) .
10:47 I love that you keep it real
Technically a noble house can disown a heir, right? So the reverse of acknowledging a bastard already exists. If for example I am a noble man, and I have a firstborn son who is a fool, and I prefer my second son, I can just disown my firstborn, or send him to a monastery and hope he stays there. So the argument about "it must be the other way around too" is here, it already is a thing. Or did I misunderstand something about the discussion?
Also I love how you brought up that the race change of the Velaryons doesnt make much sense. It is too obvious, and it was obviously made for being "inclusive"... Again, making idiotic decisions for the "right" reason.
If I'm not mistaken, only ironborn choose heirs. In Dorne the firstborn is heir. But usually, the firstborn son is heir and it's kinda hard to disinherit him without a great reason, simply because even a fool would have supporters
I don't think that's true or Randall Tarly wouldn't have sent Sam to the wall.
no they cant not even Randyll Tarly forced Sam to Volantery join the NW
Well Joffrey and Tommen were also kinda obviously illegitimate. Many, MANY people knew and a civil war started because it was obvious and people knew and didn't accept illegitimate kids of Cersei on the iron throne.
Yet they were considered Baratheons and kids of Robert, they sat on the throne, both became kings ONLY AND ONLY because Robert accepted them as his kids. So if that was enough to get two bas*ard kids on throne... idk why would it be impossible for Rhaenyra. But ofc, it's a different situation entirely.
So I'd like to push back a little on this idea that there are hard and fast rules about the legitimacy of children in this world. As long as the people in power want someone to be legitimate, then they are. There might be consequences to that, but only if someone else with power cares enough to intervene. The fact that Twin could deny Tyrion Casterly Rock is proof enough of this
Will that is the truth which no one would accept: Rheanyra’s children aren’t true Velarion nor a Targaryen, even Daemon won’t allow them to sit on the throne. Also, Rheanyra’s decent criticized her actions and hated her for killing the dragons.
If it was a matter of the father just saying my child is legitimate or not then Sam would have been a flowers not a Tarly. His father would have declared him illegitimate in a heartbeat. If it was in the power of the king to just decide then Joffrey could have just declared all his enemies illegitimate. It's my understanding that in order for a king (or queen) to legitimize someone there has to be either a specific request from the family that they want to acknowledge the child and put them in the line of succession AND the monarch agrees to that, or there is no other possible heir so the monarch legitimizes a bastard in order to have someone to inherit a seat and avoid a war between neighbors or very very distant branches of a family who see a potential land grab.
Has anyone ever considered that GRRM repeated the same storyline simply because that was the only idea he ever had and both stories are simply studies of that idea?