The Greens Crowning Aegon II Was A Huge Mistake, But Not For The Reasons You Think
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- The end of the first season of House of the Dragon largely culminated with the crowning of Aegon II as the heir to Viserys Targaryen, going against the former king's wishes that his daughter Rhaenyra would succeed him on the throne. And, while the Greens may have made a mistake in putting Aegon on the Iron Throne, it was a bad political move for reasons that many may not have realized.
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Intro
01:00 The Greens Had Many Advantages They Didn't Use
04:25 Rhaenyra Was Doomed To Fail & The Greens Should've Let Her
08:32 The Greens Should've Let The Blacks Win The Race To The Bottom
10:41 Outro 
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Rhaenya always baffled me. She condemns her father for marrying Allicent out of selfishness and not political ease(rightfully so) but then repeats his mistake in the worst ways possible with her strong boys. Maybe that's intentional, self reflection doesn't seem like anyone's strong suit in this setting
It wasn’t because of that lol it was because Alicent was her best friend who helped her mourn her mom’s death. Now she’s her new mom.
It was purely personal.
@@Binks129
Rhaenya rebuffed her father's statement that she must always do what is politically best when marrying Allicent was politically stupid. Visarys clung to someone who made him feel wanted just as Rhaenya did. Only its 10 times worse (in the show) because Rhaenya's actions do more than snub a powerful house but weakens her claim and also condems her children to a lesser status.
To put it more crassly
Viserys drank a cup of dumbitch juice
Rhaenya condems him for doing that then later in life downs 3 gallons of dumbitch juice
Alicent condemns Rhaenyra for not keeping her virginity, but not managing to raise Aegon as a future king, the boy ended up being even worse tahn Rhaenyra at that age. The whole plot is about incompetent people trying get the power lol.
@@MrSam1804 the main diffrence is that many are quick to point out allicent's mistakes and flaws while ignoring Rhae's and acting like she is so rightouse and will make a great queen
@@kikima258 i get why people sympathize with rhaenyra more, but they're all just as bad lol.
It's not the Queen they fear, it's what the Prince Consort would do.
they was still trying to usurp her before she married daemon though
@@bob6228 That they didn't see as usurping, it was passing over a female heir for a male one, what caused them to seize the throne so openly and fast was fear of what Daemon would do if Rhaenyra was crowned. They wanted the throne, fear of Daemon made them move fast
@@bob6228 maybe they would have done as it was said in the video, but because of Daemon they hurried with the decision...
@@justicar5 she was the heir chosen by the previous monarch. It was usurping.
Jaehaerys didn't chose Rhaenys so those are two different cases
@@merykhan97 And Joffrey was also chosen by the previous monarch to be his successor.
Greens should've called for the 2nd Great Council. Jahaerys gave a clear precedent that when succesion of the throne is in question, lords of the realm have a right to speak their mind and have their voices heard. Even 200 years later Catelyn Stark thought it was good idea for Stannis, Renly & Robb to call for the great council that would decide the succesion (after they defeat Lannisters of course). Most lords of Westeros would vote for Aegon anyway, especially after Hightowers proved prudent enough to avoid civil war by calling the great council. Rhaenyra would have to either go to Harrenhal and plead heir case to the lords, or risk loosing backing of the less ardent of her supporters by decrying the council and therefore starting the civil war.
But what if they get aegon II to present his case and he just goes "I don't want to rule so give the throne to Rhaenyra" That would lose some points to his claim 😬
Yes! I thought thr same. They would have voted for Aegon.
@@Janary08 Hm, this is entirely possible. I'm not sure what plan Otto and Alicent would have to have in this case. I think it would 100% be very likely for Aegon to just straight up say "nah"
My thought exactly. They would have more advantages. But there? They showed themselves as usurpers.
@@Janary08 dont think so. Fo all his faults, when push comes to shove, aegon actually does whatbis expected of him to defend his own. Remember when aemond threw him under the bus? He could easily said that it was alicent but he said the truth about jace's bastardy, confirming and voicing everything
1:42 It was definitely a huge mistake on Rhaenyra's part to stay in Dragonstone. It was also a mistake on Viserys' part to not prepare her, and Rhaenyra should have seen that, and asked for more involvement. She should have travelled the realm with her father, meeting all the important Lords sworn to him and to her as heir.
It's sad because larys strong in ser perkin the flea kills Aegon ii Targaryen with poison R.I.P Aegon ii 😢
@@barronbarron6784 not before he kills Rhanerya tho
I feel like she tried when she asked to be apart of his council but since she was young he put her as the drink bearer
HotD is basically bad choices the show at this point.
Dance of the Dragons summery:
"Massive Black strategic blunder."
"Massive Green political blunder."
"Crippling black defeat, 6 dragons dead, 4 mutinied."
"The river lands explode and catch fire."
"Critical Black strategic blunder."
"Massive riots lead to peasants eating knights in the streets."
"300 Targaryen bastards declare themselves king and then die."
"Massive Green strategic blunder."
"Critical green strategic blunder, the river lands catch fire again."
The Riverlands really cannot catch a break, can they
@@mariavi33 No they really can't! Lol. Since they are the center region of Westeros with no natural barriers to protect them from war, they go through more hell than anyone else sadly.
You know, the way Rhaenyra moved in the show, I did say to myself that she was setting up herself for failure. Viserys made a point ONCE to tell her that perception is everything, but I don't think it clicked in her mind, as she continued to do as she pleased in a super conservative political environment. Boy, Daemon grooming her was so detrimental-it influenced her in all the wrong ways. She was already very snobby and low-key hostile to the high ladies (as shown in the hunt episode), and then her uncle comes and tell her that she can do whatever she wants cause she's a dragon😑Just bad politics all around. Her attitude towards her subjects was the very least to be desired.
I truly believe she would have eventually dug herself in a hole if she ever came to power, not because she was the worst candidate (i'd choose her over Aegon) but because she is so sloppy! FOR EVERYONE TO SEE🙄 And no way the Kingdom would have accepted Jace as the heir either. Bless those boys heart, they don't deserve it, but Rhaenyra should have kept her bastards at Dragonstone, and made Aegon III her heir. Its ruthless and fu*ck up for Jace, but that would have been a necessary concession unfortunately. She needed to save face some way. It seems as if Rhaenyra really didn't want to make ANY sacrifices at all...and I don't know how that would work out for someone who'd eventually wear the heavy crown. It's just not realistic for a female heir. She certainly wasn't groomed properly for the job as being the first Sovereign queen of Westeros.
Agreed. rhaena, the queen who never was, should've been the first ruling queen as she is the better role model of a queen regnant than Rhaenyra 😭
I love how flawed Rhaenyra is, but her decision of trying to push her bastards to the throne is just WRONG. Even Jace believed he should/will be king one day, that's how deep her brainwashing is towards her children.
Her sons are not legally bastards. She was married when she had them, and Viserys, Corlys, and Laenor all accepted them as legitimate - barring a DNA test what else do they need?
@@redredrumxo blond hair🙃...no seriously, legality is one thing, perception is another. The people were staring at the boys when they arrived at King's Landing to defend Luke's claim...I honestly don't think their inheritance would have ever gone unquestioned.😔 It would be a headache to continuously defend had they ever made it to the throne and Driftmark as their mother's/Laenor's successors respectfully. Poor things...
Yes, I think Daemon’s selfish ambition did untold damage to her, not only in her reputation but also in her fragile relationship with Alicent. Rhaenyra’s white lie cost Alicent her biggest ally and she was starting to realize that no matter what Rhaenyra did, Viserys would always defend or make excuses for her. She wasn’t even originally being brought up as the future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, because Viserys spent most of her childhood hoping for a son as heir. And it wasn’t any better for her either even after Aemma died, because Rhaenyra wasn’t even ‘allowed’ to participate in Small Council meetings since she was only a ‘woman’. Like seriously, a lot of Rhaenyra’s fumblings were Viserys’ fault due to his inability to confront problems head on. It’s like the dude willingly withdrew into himself after his wife died, preferring to build Lego sets of Old Valyria instead of making prudent decisions as a ruler and cementing Rhaenyra as his legitimate heir, ensuring she was prepared for the challenges she would face. Of course, it wasn’t only his fault, but Rhaenyra birthing bastards and passing them off as legitimate Velaryons (when a lot of people could tell they weren’t) also severely weakened her claim. I mean sure they were legitimized by Laenor himself but you’re definitely right in the fact that the lords were clearly not going to let the Iron Throne go to Jace. Driftmark may have been different, but the Iron Throne is a different beast.
The big advantage that Otto wanted when crowning Aegon was laid out on Dragonstone. All signs of political legitimacy were given to Aegon. The Conqueror's Crown and Blackfire are powerful symbols for those who were not as politically connected and is an easier pill to swallow. Also, while Otto is one of the more politically competent characters presented in GoT or HotD, I do not see him as having as much faith in having agents as Lyars or Littlefinger would. Otto is too much of a hands on kind of person to rely on schemes and subtle manipulations. He is much more overt in his plotting.
The greens should've stolen those symbols and store them somewhere safe. And then, when Rhaenyra's reign collapses, crown Aegon with them.
I like how this was contrasted with Rhaenyra having Viserys' crown.
The thing is that those heirlooms are in a way "tainted" to the Targs and the kingdom as a whole at the time because they were also the crown, sword, etc. Of Maegor the Cruel. That's why The Conciliator had a new one forged (the one he, Viserys and Rhaenera use) to put the brutality of Maegor in the past.
@@tytania3545 Aegon the Conqueror's legacy will always overcome Maegor's infamy. Temporarily those heirlooms might have been tainted, but in the end, they would always he seen as legitimate symbols of Targaryen rule.
To the point of where people joined the Blackfyres purely because Daemon was the king who bore the sword.
What I think is interesting tough is that a lot of lords didn't take these signs of legitimacy to heart and still wanted to honor their oaths (until being threatened or murder).
So while the common folk may have been impressed by that, the nobles who were important, were not and didn't see him as rightful.
Since the conflict between the Blacks and the Greens is inspired by the 12th Century conflict between Stephen & Matilda for the throne of England (the nobles had sworn to support Henry I's daughter over his nephew), it was a major coup for Stephen that he was able to crown himself before Matilda could act. Ultimately Matilda was not sufficiently politically astute to hold the throne when she (briefly) seized it, but it certainly didn't help that Stephen grabbed the Crown while Matilda was still in France. Possession is, as they say, 9 tenths of the law.
It's sad because larys strong in ser perkin the flea kills Aegon ii Targaryen with poison R.I.P Aegon ii 😢
@@barronbarron6784 he was a monster and a horrible king what are you on???
@@berilsevvalbekret772 So was his sister ended up making the populace begged Aegon II to come back after she been Queen for a day.
He is physically weak at this point, otto, corlys and even cregan wouldve steered the kingdom back to normalcy until aegon the 3rd or viserys time to rule
@@nicmagtaan1132What do you mean by a monster ? Aegon ii was a robert baratheon like individual who likes to drink,whore , fight around and leaves the ruling to his small council .Him watching his bastards murder each other is nothing more than a vile rumour by mushroom in fire and blood and not to mention how he was portrayed as a filthy rapist in the TV show instead of him having some redeemable traits and whereas rhaenyra's cruelty and callousness is downplayed to the extreme in TV show ,something which I have a great problem with .
I agree with everything you said however you overlooked a very important point : Daemon .
I seriously doubt he would’ve let Otto or Alicent’s children live once Rhaenyra was in power .
And I also think it was Otto’s greatest fear and why he wanted him as far from the throne as possible. Daemon love him or hate him is a cold blooded killer who would exterminate anyone that is in his path to power , women and children alike .
This right here!!! They fall in love with Matt smith’s charming portrayal of him and seem to forget that he’s Maegor the cruel just toned down a lil bit
Otto didn’t want Daemon on the throne because Daemon wouldn’t have kept Otto as Hand. Daemon wasn’t so easy to influence or manipulate. Like it or not, the throne of the Seven Kingdoms was created by the Targaryens and they were the true heirs. The Hightowers, Otto in particular, are usurpers. Otto only cares about his own power. The asshole literally watches Rhaenyra grow from childhood and he doesn’t care about her life. It was his idea to make her heir and put her life in harms way; harm created by him. Otto is a POS, worse than Daemon.
@@aileenpi73 hmm…. No ? Look you can say what you want about Otto but being hand of the king is not his main goal . You can see it when he actually isn’t hand anymore he confide in his daughter without witnesses that he just doesn’t want the realm to plunge into chaos and his grandchildren massacred .
And seriously saying Otto is worse than Daemon when the guy groomed his niece and was ready to take her on the spot if not for erectile problems ?
@@stormbringer2840 Otto is just manipulating his daughter. He can’t get her to be on his side just for power, he has to tell her the bullshit that her life and her children’s are in danger. If they are is due to people like him. It is a self created issue. They are judging others based on what they themselves are willing to do. Rhaenyra would have never just killed or harmed Alicent or the kids, even that asshole Otto. He is the horrible person. The one who didn’t care about putting Rhaenyra in harms way. Daemon would be a regular King, not horrible nor kind. What kind of King do you think Aegon is going to be? Otto and people like him, both in fantasy and in the real world are the scum of the earth. In regards of the grooming you speak off, Targaryens come from the tradition of marrying within their family. That is wrong for us in our reality, but in the world of Westeros they practiced it. They do that because they want to stay pure, in order to continue to insist in being basically closer to god and above all the other humans. While it is wrong, because it is done as tradition, Daemon is not being malicious. Otto, on the other hand, doesn’t cone from a culture who believes in incest; yet for this own interest he breaks away his integrity and marries his two grandchildren, which is worse. So even then, Otto is worse than Daemon.
@@aileenpi73
Excuse me but Rhaenyra literally proved him right later . Remembre the maiming of aemond ? What was Rhaenyra's reaction exactly ? Not even a sorry not even a slap on the wrist , no as was said she seemed " entitled" to aemond's eye .
From that point on it is very VERY clear that yeah she would most likely turn a blind eye to any harm on alicent children done in her ( or her children ) favor .
Daemon's idea of being a king was to put the targaryen back to their full glory by ruling throught tyrannical power and have multiple wives . You know who was the last king who did it that way ? Maegor the cruel .
Daemon by that point is cold blooded murderer and a loose canon while Otto proved he could rule the realm and bring peace for decades .
Excuse me but as a peon I take 10 Otto hightower over 1 Daemon any day.
Aegon would be an unwilling king who would very much listen to his mother and grandfather as demonstrated which was your idea of a regular king . Plus his descendance was already assured ( and very much HIS ) so no succession crisis here .
Whilst the patient approach makes sense. The trouble is the Blacks have demonstrated ruthlessness, short sightedness and an abandonment of conventional norms/behaviour.
There was a risk the Blacks would go full tyrant and kill off the Greens core members overnight at some point before they could ever fight back or rally support. Think of the Red Wedding where an entire family was one sidedly massacred at a holy event that would normally be treated with utmost respect.
A politically vulnerable Blacks means a more unpredictable Daemon. Better to take the first moves than to wait and leave things to chance.
Examples:
Ruthlessness = 1) Killing spouses, 2) Killing people pointing out the truth
Short sightedness = 1) Having an affair but then having to live with b*stard children for the long term
Abandonment of social norms= 1) Pushing obvious b*stards do be heirs and inherit titles.
Totes, and while I can sort of armchair quarterback the moves they made and point out that there were a lot of potential advantages to letting Rhaenyra fall on her face by herself, this really is the long and short of it. Otto is supposed to be pretty politically savvy too, so it wouldn't surprise me if he did this calculus and decided it wasn't worth the risk, which I can't really argue with given that the potential strategic exploitations don't mean jack squat if you're dead before you can actually exploit them.
Plus there is Daemon's and Otto's hatred of each other that has at this point spanned decades. It was no secret that the two were always at each other's throats whenever they happen to be in the same province, let alone the same city.
Alicent’s worst fear was that Rhaenyra would off her children, and we for sure know that she would if they end up being a threat to her and her sons’ claim to the throne. She wouldn’t think twice about sending someone to get them. Plus, even if she didn’t, Daemon would for sure. It was an emotionally motivated move to crown Aegon: Alicent fearing for her children, Otto fearing for his house. Otto wanted to off Rhaenyra and her children too, so they wouldn’t be capable to retaliate. It’s not the smartest move, but it’s the one motivated for love and power, very in-character for them. Ironically, it was Alicent’s mercy for Nyra that was the biggest mistake that ended up making her fears a reality anyways.
Yeah this is the one aspect where I just cannot help but see from the Greens POV, like you'd have to be fucking nuts to leave your life and the lives of everyone you love in Daemon Targaryen's hands, and the whole point of very publicly and violently killing Vaemond Velaryon was to demonstrate what would happen if anyone stepped out of line. Like, you can't brutally kill someone for speaking the truth about you and then get all salty when the other people who are near the top of your kill list are like yeah maybe I'll just take the throne and take my chances instead.
@@HillsAliveYT yes, exactly. Even then, the only thing that killing Vaemond did is confirming the greens’ fears and reiterating to the court what they all knew: Rhaenyra’s children are bastards. Like Tyrion said: “When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you're only telling the world that you fear what he might say.”
LMFAO totally, like okay so you chopped off the head of the legitimate claimant to Driftmark because he simply said that he was a legitimate claimant to Driftmark and your kid wasn't, you did this in front of a legitimate claimant to the Iron Throne and his family when you have already stated that your bastard son will inherit the Iron Throne, it's not hard for them to do the math here.
@@HillsAliveYT omg yes, I would have loved to have Criston convince Aegon to be king to protect his family, know what he thinks about the Vaemond incident or even know a bit more of his motivations: basically, not letting Daemon and Nyra kill him, his mother, siblings and children. They missed a big shot making him more interesting there.
@@Valentinianist I also would have loved to see Aegon's shift against the black. He actually liked the Strong boys and hung out around them until they took his brother's eye. You could see the shift after, especially when he said just look at them. Everyone knows. There was a shift behind his brother as he moves from rebellious carefree teenager to sullen miserable adult. I think he realised the favor his father had to his bastard nephews over him and his brother. He also realised that bullying his brother helped lead to Aemond losing his eye. The Strong boys did not fear attacking his brother at all because he created a dynamic where they all taunted him. His rage was shown when he slammed Lucerys to the table when he got up after Aemond's toast. But I would have liked to see how he processed it. It would have definitely made him more interesting. Black fans tend to blame Alicent for the children's divide, but Aegon actually befriended them and Aemond desperately wanted to be their friend. It was taking his eye that ensured a divide between the boys, and we don't really get to see his reaction to his little brother losing his eye. We just know that he took his brother's side after, even throwing a party after Lucerys dies.
I think the choice to pursue this strategic error can be explained by Otto being genuinely afraid of Daemon as King Consort.
I think he fully expects Daemon to rule through Rhaenyra in the same way a regent rules through a child King, and in believing that Daemon would ruthlessly root out potential rivals early into his reign, all the greens in the line of succession (his grandchildren) would be at risk of being eliminated early in Rhaenyra's reign, regardless of what crises she faces as it goes on.
Traditionally, people waiting to claim the Westerosi throne hide out in Essos in the meantime (Blackfyres, Viserys & Dany, (f)Aegon). The idea they could've just holed up in the Hightower for a few years and been safe there while everyone knows where they are seems… optimistic.
@@mollytaylor2122 Maegor?
If Daemon wasn't part of the equation I would agree with you, but I'm convinced that Daemon is ruthless, cunning and shameless enough to have moved to kill off all the potential challenges (including the Strong boys) as soon as they get into power. Obviously not in an overt way as Rhaenyra would not allow that, but within 4 or 5 years everyone would have met mysterious deaths ala Rhea Royce.
I feel like people who say this haven’t watched the show or know nothing about hotd. WHY would Daemon kill Rhaenyra’s children when he went to the depths of depravity just to avenge one of them? Y’all be pulling the most random bullshit out of thin air, istg
@@PerfectDark0 its A plus for them anyway, one male down.
@@PerfectDark0 i mean avenging them not out of love for the boys. But only on the whole idea of only revenge because they one uped his team so he'll even it back.
@@myrmyles But why would you avenge someone you were planning to kill.
@@yusufraage8554 planning?
I think we are forgetting the fact that Maegor existed just 2 kings prior. He would still be on everyones mind. And the fact that the lesson that was taught, especially if your right to the throne is gained through force or is in general improper, is that you need to kill anyone who could challenge it. Maegor had to kill Aegon the Uncrowned but left Jahaerys able to dispute him. And then when Jahaerys inevitably rebelled, Maegor was killed.
This was known to the players before and during the dance. If you are a threat due to questions of legitimacy, you need to be taken out. And your entire line with you. Or else that line will get to rise up. Fundamentally I think the greens realized that if they didnt do the coup, and say went to oldtown to be safe (nobody in their right mind would think they could stay in king's landing), they'd only be given an advantage to Rhaenyra and Daemon. In Oldtown they'd be a lot more isolated, without the strenght or the treasury of the capital and with no Allies willing to defend them. Daemon and Rhaenyra could simply either infiltrate them or order their execution, and when the rebellions starts, they could ammass all of their dragons on Oldtown and wipe the entirety of the greens and their descendants in one strike. That is if they want to do it the official route. They can just attack premptively without even giving a warning. Sure the realm might hate them, but with dragons the realm would be powerless.
I also dont think the Starks would ever change sides. The whole method of governing of the North is based through oaths, so if they broke them, their whole rule would be much more unstable. And the Starks really do not care about the Moral qualities of the Iron Throne. We tend to have a good impression of the starks due to the Boltons and Eddard, but historically, they were fare more negative in connotation. The Starks were one of the only houses who did not rise up against Maegor the Cruel. They still followed Aegon IV or Aerys without lament for the most part. Fundamentally, the starks would've served a tyrant who massacres orphans as much a saint. They only rebelled against Aerys because THEY were personally affected for once. I dont see the starks caring if Daemon massacres more innocent people.
but what if Helaena was betrothed to Cregan Stark? Do you think they would side with the greens?
@@yasmina3999 Nope, the north is all about oaths and the lord bended the knee to Rheanyra.
I dont know about this, unless Rhaeenyra is as cruel as Maegor as inept Aenys it would be really hard for the greens to get her off the throne once she established a foothold in Kingslanding. The biggest advantage the greens had is that Aegon was crowned first and was the sitting ruler
I mean in the book she is known as Maegor with t*ts.
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 Only because she hikes up taxes after the greens stole the crown treasury. Without the death of her sons Rhaenyra would not have gone all paranoid, alienating her supporters. I don't see Corlys or the Vale turning against her like the video states, Rhaenyra would have named Corlys her hand and Jeyne Arryn was one of her biggest supporters during the dance and her family.
With the crown treasury, kingslanding all the trapping of the legit ruler and more adult dragons to fight for her Rhaenyra would have been impossible to remove
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 Rhaenyra was not a good ruler but comparing her to Maegor is nuts.
@@housecodd7714 you're right, I think the author of the video fundamentally misunderstands the intended behind some of the character's actions
@@housecodd7714 rhaenyra stans significantly overestimate her the same way they overestimated dany
Daemon is a wildcard here, we don't know what he would do if he got the throne through Rhaenyra, many people in the comments already talked about how he could just decide to go after the Greens anyway. But there is also the question about, is he really going to let his bastard stepsons inherit the Iron Throne when he has two Targaryen looking sons just after them in the succession line? I mean, take a momment to look from his perspective
His two sons are also reminders that the Strong boys are not legitimate, they are as much of a risk to them as are the Greens. Daemon also is king only until Rhaenyra dies, if she dies from sickness, childbirth or some accident he is back to being just a relative of the king, and a relative that is not even that close to the new ruler.
Daemon will not be the regent if the king is a minor or hand if the king is already an adult, those positions would probably go to Corlys, and after Corlys is dead the king will already have a lot of friends as candidates and even more people around him warning him against Daemon. I also don't think that he gives a damn about his daughters lineage, I don't think he is indiferent to them to the point of not caring if they live or die, but their marriages certainly don't matter much to him in this context, and there is no guarantee that such marriages would in any way protect his two sons.
Even if his stepsons don't try anything against his sons, what would be left to his line? If they are lucky they will be married to some heiress, otherwise they are going to be at best landed knights, but there is an even bigger chance that they end up as Maesters, Septons or even at the Wall.
In this situation, to Daemon it would be much better if the Strong Boys just died and one of his much younger sons became the heir, that way even if Rhaenyra died he would rule for a long time in their name, and could continue ruling with them as an advisor after they reached the adulthood. So, there is a possibility that Daemon would be a destabilizing factor inside the Black faction, he would maybe try to kill his stepsons, or try to create his own faction inside the black faction.
THE Show did make a point of questioning if Daemon really wanted the Throne??? He does NOT seem to be the legacy type of person??? More of the "current moment" guy.
@@chasx7062 a lot of his actions contradict the theory that Daemon is not powerhungry for the Iron Throne though. He was grooming Rhaenyra with the showering of the gifts and the special attention. He also intentionally took her to a brothel to ruin her reputation so he can sneakily use that as a back door to get married to her.
I think Otto was unwilling to wait it out because of Daemon. I believe if Rhaenyra was not married to Daemon, they would have waited.
Daemon would have revived his gold army to kill anyone that threatened his power. He's king through Rhaenyra. He would not be king otherwise. Aegon would be. So, waiting would not have been practical to me. Waiting was a death sentence for Otto and for the boys. I wouldn't have risked it if I was Otto. Daemon would have targeted them then the Strong boys. The end would be the same with Daemon's kids inheriting. (But I'm actually beginning to doubt that ending).
Yeah, Daemon really is the wild card that throws a wrench into everything because he doesn't give a damn about doing anything the way it's "supposed" to be done, I mean in HotD he literally cut Vaemond's head off from behind so he didn't even see it coming, which seems like an incredibly overt metaphor that shows exactly why the Greens would have done what they did.
@@HillsAliveYT I do believe he did it openly as a warning to Otto. It wasn't a metaphor. The fact that he and Rhaenyra had to run to the Palace to secure her strong son's place was infuriating to him. He was flippant about it, but I think he did it to secure his place. Daemon is ruthless for the throne as well, he just manages to hide it behind a smile. It begs to question, what would he have done if Vicerys didn't drag his decaying body to his throne. I don't see him peacefully allowing them to jeopardise his throne by disinheriting the Strong son. I think he was getting a head at the end of the day, and I don't think Vaemond's fate would've changed. He would have cried treason and swung his sword around. He was happy because he could do it legally now that the King took a stance. Vaemond knew it too. That's why he said everything with his chest. I think he knew he lost everything at that moment. He knew he would die for it, maybe not immediately. But he knew it was over for him when the King showed up.
I agree i don't beleive for a second that deamon would allow Rhae's brothers and aegon's sons to live for a day after he becomes king consort and i guarantee you thoses strong boys would have all died in a series of unfortunate accidents shorly after
I have to doubt daemon would kill the strongs outright considering that they have a level of respect for him and they're married to his daughters. I don't see him having greater power with his sons on the throne than his daughters (especially in a world that normalizes a woman's inheritance)
@@maYTeus he wouldn't kill them outright, but he would kill them. People will know them as bastards. He would be the king regent that allowed a bastard to inherit the throne over his sons. The Greens aside, the end result would be the same. Whether they die in a dragon accident or drowning or falling off a horse like his wife did. They would be gone.
Only got into ASOIAF recently with the show, and this channel has just been such a vindicating presence as it has structured many of the same opinions I've had and then some. Love your work, it has been an awesome deep dive into the lore of ASOIAF.
On that note, I agree with what you're saying about the weakness of Rhaenyra's potential rule, and that the greens could have succeeded collapse on their own. I would argue though that for the greens usurping the crown was a matter of life and death. Or at least perceived as such. On multiple occasions, Rhaenyra has undermined the idea of peace within the family, especially from Alicent's perspective.
1. When she lied about her brothel trip. She swore on her mother over a lie, which not only undermined Alicent's ability to trust her but that she would do so upon something she supposedly held in high regard is just a major blow upon Rhaenyras trustworthiness. The fact that Otto lost his position, seemingly as a result (though there were other factors beyond Alicent's testimony in support of her to the king) of trusting Rhaenyra makes it even worse. A telling blow from both a family perspective and a political one that Alicent believes she caused because she trusted her.
2. Aemond's eye. The fact Rhaenyra wanted her brother, a child, tortured after losing his eye to hold up the legitimacy of her kids? The only thing stopping her from doing so was that she was yet to attain power, and she made it plain to Alicent what the consequences were for such talk. Sure the consequences of having the treason of having bastards were dire for Rhaenyra, but unfortunately talk of something so obvious was inevitable. She demonstrated she wouldn't show mercy over the inevitable. No one would step to her or Aemond's defence, she would have to step up or suffer whatever Rhaenyra intended. It was only her position that saved her, a position with the same expiry date as Viserys, the only thing stopping Rhaenyra.
3. The Velaryon succession. She claimed male primogeniture as the reason why Lucerys is the heir, yet not only is she believed to have been involved in the murder of the actual heir, her husband murdered the other legitimate potential candidate (following male primogeniture). Had she applied the same rules that she believed should apply to her with no gender preference it would've gone to Laena's daughters. She went with her own option making it look like she was performing a hostile takeover on a major house. She's going about as if the rules do not apply to her outside of her house, whos to say what she'd do when it is within her own house?
4. Daemon. People believed he was involved in the murder of potentially two wives. They believe he was involved in the murder of Laenor. The man is known as a loose cannon with a rivalry with the Hightowers in particular. Given the mere threat of their claimant position brings, who is to say what he'd do? Though Rhaenyra has done more than enough damage to her reputation already, her marrying Daemon was a deathblow to the idea of peaceful coexistence with the greens. Discussion about her legitimacy would inevitably arise about her being a woman and for that of her son and heir Jace, the greens would not believe that he, with power, would seek to remove all rivals to the throne he's lusted after all his life. They would believe he would act, with or without Rhaenyra's approval.
Sure, Rhaenyra could've collapsed of her own accord should she have risen to power, but I don't feel like the question should be as to when the Greens could take advantage of this, but rather whether they'd live to see it. The idea that the greens accept Rhaenyra's ascension I feel is the gamble of a lifetime. They would have to trust that Rhaenyra would not continue to act the way she has against something that has arisen before and will continue to inevitably do so. They would have to trust that, even if they do her no wrong, that she would not go against any law or precedence to help her sons. That any claims of peace she makes can even be trusted, when she has broken them before. This multiplied tenfold then needs to be applied to an empowered Daemon, who beyond his reputation, has a particular dislike for the greens.
It was absolutely a bad political move to put Aegon on the Iron Throne. I do not believe that it was ever a choice they could simply not make as the risks for war were, funnily enough, much easier to stomach than the situation Rhaenyra had placed before them. Viserys's final words changed little beyond giving Alicent a conviction beyond just survival. She would've done much the same without them.
It's sad because larys strong in ser perkin the flea kills Aegon ii Targaryen with poison R.I.P Aegon ii 😢
wait what, 2nd one I didn't get it at all, Rhaenyra was trying to say that her two children defends themselves because they were insult, and Rhaenyra didn't want her brother torture, once Viserys said that nobody ever call them bastard again or would lose their tongues, Rhaenyra was fine, she didn't seek Aemond to be torture, was Alicent that get mad and she literally hurt the heir of the throne that is Rhaenyra. Viserys is really really peaceful, becuase if I was him, I would have Alicent killed, she was literally going to kill Rhaenyra.
also you know that Male-preference primogeniture exist, this allows Women to succeed if there is any other male, in this case I think Rhaenyra didn't want to give to the girls the grown, because people would be seen as she is accepting that her children are not Leanor's.
@@rowanjoy419 actually she DID want her brother tortured. When Rhaeynra said that Aemond should be "questioned sharply" that is a well known euphemism in the world of Westeros for someone to be physically brutalized/tortured for information. She was literally threatening the life of her already bullied and maimed younger brother with more violence toward him. And the fact that Viserys did nothing but side with Rhaenyra spoke volumes for Alicent that her life was in danger. She was not going to kill Rhae but threaten her with the same knife used to cut out her son's eye. It is COMPLETELY understandable why Alicent reacted the way she did. In that moment she knew that no matter what, her children would always be in danger of the black faction.
I don't know if you've read Fire and Blood volume 1 yet but the show took the option of having Larys kill his brother Harwin and father Lyonel. When in the books it's also implied that Daemon had a hand in the Harrenhal fire as well.
Now the question is.
Will the writters be self-aware enough to slowly show how Rhaenyra is NOT suited for the Throne? The ones of Game of Thrones failed with Daenerys, always portraying her as a Heroine until they realised they only had three episodes left.
So far they are doing everything to show how Rhaenyra is the "rightful Queen". And downplaying her mistakes. I think the best way is a massive call out. Someone explicity telling her that she is a terrible ruler and telling her how she is a terrible ruler....she reacts by imprisoning that person..... for irony sake it has to be either Corlys or Daemon.
IMO, D&D didn’t realize they had three episodes left. More like they crammed a whole arc into Daenerys in three episodes so they can eff off and do Star Wars right after. Definitely a massive injustice to Daenerys. It’s a shame too. Apparently HBO and GRRM wanted more seasons of GoT so they can tie up character arcs properly, but D&D were in a big rush to leave.
And also, yes, I’m a bit worried they might not do it because they’ve whitewashed Rhaenyra so far. I’m hoping they don’t take the girlboss stuff too far and still make her a strong character with flaws. However, given the fact that now we’re going to have a huge wait until season 2 comes out, they might hopefully take some time to really understand the story and the characters.
@@thedarkestfateful They realised. They were offered 2 more seasons, and they refused.
@@kauswekazilimani3736 yep that’s what I said.
How is rhaenyra a terrible ruler?
@@Piotr12396 The show has run for like 20 in universe years. In all that time, what intelligent decision has Rhaenyra made?
The best/worst part of the dance of the dragons is that neither side is equipped, neither are sane, neither know how to rule, neither have been to war, but BOTH have dragons. Ultimately, extremely entertaining, and extremely bloody.
Exactly, the irony is that dragons have been to war TOGETHER. Especially Vhagar, Vermithor and Caraxes. Daemon saw and fought in war, yes but he's way too dangerous
Lies sir otto ran the country years peacefully
@@dellavonta187 Otto can't be counted because he's instantly kicked away by Aegon lol
Great video!
I like how you call out both the Greens and Blacks on their faults and mistakes, rather than just being completely biased to one side.
However, I don't see the Vale turning on Rhaenyra because she is the granddaughter of Rodrik Arryn, the Lord of the Vale, which is why she was so confident that they would support her in HoTD.
Thanks! And actually I think that would have been a really interesting crack in Rhaenyra's coalition that could be exploited too, because you're totes right that the Arryns would have supported her because her mother was an Arryn, but clearly the Royces would not have been chill about Daemon being on the throne with her. The Royces are basically the second most powerful house in the Vale, and if the Dance of the Dragons hadn't started as soon as Viserys was dead I imagine that this could have caused some issues with Rhaenyra and caused some fissures in the Vale since she clearly wouldn't have done anything to punish Daemon or even put him off his attempts to take Rhea's claim for himself. Clearly the Royces are not the Boltons or the Freys, but every kingdom seems to have its dominant house and the house that is just below them that kinda wants to be the top dog, and the Lannisters really showed how well those rivalries can be exploited under the right circumstances, so it would have been interesting to see how the Hightowers could have used this to their own advantage.
@@HillsAliveYT Oh that's true. The Greens kind of dropped the ball on this one.
And, with Rhea's murder at the hands of Daemon and him not being punished for it, I imagine that would have made it all the more likely for them to help the Greens overthrow Rhaenyra, even if they weren't looking to increase their power.
I just want to ask you, though: before the Greens crowning Aegon, how likely do you think that Daemon would actually kill Alicent and her children? Certainly, he is power-hungry and ambitious but it was also shown he wasn't willing to kill his own family to get that power, unlike many.
I feel like all he would have done was just hold Alicent and her children hostage at court.
@@AQ_456 I don't think he sees Alicent and her children to be a part of his family.
@@AQ_456 Daemon has never seen Alicent and the green kids as part of his family, he believes in Targaryen superiority and sees them more as Hightowers
we also know for a fact that jeyne arryn doesn't like daemon and banned him from the vale. she supported rhaenyra over their family ties and out of solidarity given the precarity of her own position as a lady in power.
I haven’t seen anyone talk about this before but a video on the children of Team Black would be interested. I thought they would have a realistic portrayal of the kids having resentment and being emotional after everything that happened but nothing. I feel like it would be a missed opportunity to have one of the kids ponder turning on Daemon. Someone made a video saying Rhaena would bond with Aemond over them both being ostracized as kids and he could share with her that he didn’t mean to kill Luke. If she’s still neglected, mourning alone, and sent off as a pawn for marriage I could see the potential. We’ve had atleast 3 characters look down on being a cupbearer but she’s made to smile and nod while serving? Her being so close to her mom, seeing her get emotionally abused, and disrespected at her funeral I think it’s weird there’s no reaction. The girls have their uncle lose their head in front of them and nothing. No talk with baela over her inheritance of Driftmark. None of the girls questioning marriage to bastards puts them and their children at risk. Same as Jace with Harwin, he should be having an identity crisis since there’s now silver haired boys living with him and Daemon doesn’t seem to fond of him. Leanor is rumored to be murdered and there’s no reaction from him. I think it’s a great arc for him to be upset and his mother and Daemon but continue fighting for his siblings. I don’t think they’ll make characters this complex though. Jace having anger issues a great addition but it’s always portrayed as justified anger with him pulling out a knife or punching Aemond instead of arguing back. They would have better characters if they dropped the Disney prince and princess behavior for them and let them have normal emotions. They seem like hostages with the smiling and nodding😂
Yes. It seems like they are equally being brainwashed by Rhaenyra that they deserve the throne and Driftmark. Luke have doubts about inheriting Driftmark is understandable since he knows he's not of Laenor's blood.
You raise very good points. Daemon's daughters really are non-entities. Even he doesn't seem to care about them
@@chanellover4491 Luke always disliked inheriting Driftmark, first because it meant his grandfather would die, and later on because he doesn’t think he has the capability to command the seas along with his lack of direct blood ties.
@Monie: Because what do you think Jace and Luke did at Laenas funeral? They consoled them we even had a scene where Luke and Rhaena hold hands. Later on those same boys came to their aid against Aemond as it escalated into a different fight. They don’t and never cared they were bastards as they were theee at a time when the girls needed it, which is why their response to someone bonding to Vhagar was to wake them up to help them instead of finding their stain of a father Daemon or even their grandmother. Luke respects Rhaena that he wouldn’t even suggest breaking off his marriage to her just for a convenient one to get Baratheons loyalty.
@@BlackfangDragon Daemons daughters don’t owe their lives to boys because they helped them once. The girls were left to grieve alone, Jace wasn’t allowed to grieve his father and he was forced to go “console” Baela and she grabbed his hand. Again, the marriage is only beneficial to the boys and puts the girls in harms way. If they marry someone legitimate they will never have to worry about them or their children being uprooted or attacked when someone presses a claim. Them genuinely getting along with the boys doesn’t change that it puts them in danger. They have been groomed and Daemon is doing what Otto did with his daughter. They’re being used as pawns and basically human shields on behalf of these 2 boys. There’s nothing wholesome or cute about that. Luke can’t choose who he marries it’s not up to him to break a promise made by his mom.
Your premise is based on the idea that after Rhaenyra took power, the trueborn sons of Viserys would be allowed to live and bide their time for Rhaenyra's regime to collapse from within.
This is by no means certain and those trueborn son of her father would _always be a threat_ even as a standard around which her enemies could unite.
Therefore it is highly likely that the first order of business of Rhaenyra's regime is to eliminate the trueborn sons of Viserys carried out by her pimp and enforcer Daemon.
In light of this Alicent and the Greens had no choice but to stake their claim early and let battle decide.
Our own history is filled with claimants to a throne being quietly murdered because they didn't have an army at their back for example the Princes in the Tower.
I don’t think so considering Rhaenyra wanted to marry her children off to keep the family together at first nor did she even mention in the show at least wanting to kill them off it was more so Alicent she probably would’ve moved them from the castle to some other lands out of sight out of mind but idk if she wanted to kill them
@@marcusmelancon3426 Rhaenyra at this point is a puppet of Daemon's and It would be Daemon who would orchestrate the murder of Viserys'sons whether Rhaenyra wants him to or not.
Even if Rhaenyra was naive enough to spare them Daemon will ensure they would be met with a series of unfortunate 'accidents'
At this point war was unavoidable.
When there's a regime change, the children are killed. And if you don't have the stomach to do it yourself, then your more ruthless allies do it for you and only tell you after it's already done (see Tywin killing Elia's children for Robert)
@@mollytaylor2122 You get it. I don't know why some people remain blind to the political realities.
Viserys sons will always be a threat even if they were the most placid docile and tame people.
Most of the realm would see them as legitimate and they will feature prominently in other people's plots against Rhaenyra even if they themselves remain loyal.
Poignantly put. I would also suggest that making her standpoints on inheritance publicly known might've also helped in opposing her.
-Choosing/ Designating an heir
-Male primogeniture
Or
-Primogeniture regardless of sex
-Should bastard be allowed to inherit
All would carry significant implications.
The greens had to act, Daemon is too dangerous to live under.
If he becomes king consort he would slowly but relentlessly destroy team green.
Honestly you are my favourite Game of Thrones/House of the Dragon commentator. You are really good at analysing the series while keeping in mind the context of the setting.
Tell-don't-show being a very familiar trope when it comes to female competence, I am slightly concerned how much the show realizes it's portrayed Rhanyra as pretty politically inept.
Don’t worry, she’s even worse in the books….
@@gurtegbedi1172 ah yes, the infamous Seeding and the bastard tax.
Why does this make so much sense?? So much destruction and death could have been stopped if only greens had been a bit more patient and let the blacks make mistakes. But would daemon stay quite if the lords slowly turn against rhaneyra and side with the greens and supporting aegon as their king?? I doubt it. Otto and alicient were afraid of what daemon would do, that's why Aegon's coronation happened so quickly. Daemon would have definitely harmed alicent's kids if he saw the tides turning against rhaneyra, essentially him. He would have done something unpredictable if he saw people turning against him and siding with the greens who he hates. If we remove the prophecy shit then the main reason why alicent was so scared for her childrens life was that the blacks would definitely come for her kids to solidify rhaneyra's claim. But this video made so many good points, now I just think what could had happened. Great video as always.
Thanks! And yeah I can see Otto's logic there too, especially given that he'd probably be the first on Daemon's hit list once he became king, but if the Greens could have avoided them (which again, it's a risk but your family leads OLDTOWN so it's like, you certainly have a very powerful and enormous place to hide or build up your own coalition if you need to) they had a ton of strategic moves they could have exploited. At the very least they should have made some bigger moves with the Velaryons prior to Viserys' death because ironically they're probably the only reason Rhaenyra even had a shot at becoming queen and after what happened with Vaemond and Laenor it almost certainly wouldn't have been hard to get them to flip on her if they had the chance.
@@HillsAliveYT true. So many things could have happened. The greens were too scared for their future and in that emotion, they hurried and showed their hand too quickly. There is an argument that why they didn't wait but there is definitely an argument that they could have waited. They could have planned this long term. That coronation wasn't a long term planning. Wished Otto and alicient had a plan to first secure the childrens future by making alliances and then let rhaneyra make a mistake or atleast highlight her bastard childrens to the realm. She can't kill everyone. If the other lords atleast thinks the sons are bastards then that would be huge blow to her reputation. By doing that the faith could have turned against her and so could the common folks and then they should have made an alliance with the velaryons. So much should have, could have and what if. They could have won clearly as the system was in their favor if only they planned through and not let their fear take over their thoughts.
If Rhaenyra wasn’t pushed to marry Daemon, which she does as we know because of those who are trying to make enemies of her, he likely would have remained in the listless and dissatisfied lifestyle in Essos he had been living. Only when he joined Rhaenyra in marriage did that passion and desire for the Throne finally bring that destructive desire back out of him. A big part of him being in Essos was to not indulge in that until Laenas death brought him back to Westeros.
@@BlackfangDragon she wasn't pushed to marry him. Also I don't think Daemon would have stayed away. His whole reason to groom and marry rhaneyra was to get power through her. Rhaneyra was made heir to keep daemon away from the line. He saw that and then used rhaneyra to try to become the prince consort. He saw that this was the only way he could again get back in the line to the throne, through her. He wouldn't have stayed away. But after that, I can't imagine what he would have done. He wouldn't side with the greens but I can't imagine what he will get from siding with rhaneyra if she married someone else. Still he would have come back, he wouldn't let the targaryen throne fall into the hightowers, the people he hates the most. He is a proper Targaryen supremacist.
I think their biggest mistake was not being proactive enough with forging alliances.
Marrying Aegon and Helaena together wasted two betrothals in one shot. If they had cancelled that, they could have made two additional alliances. In Aegon's case, had they exploited the rumours that Rhaenyra had Laenor killed, they could have made an early offer to Rhaenys for Aegon to marry Baela. With that they could have drawn the Rhaenyra's largest supporters to their side. Alicent's appeal to Rhaenys in episode 9 was almost perfect, I just wish she had done so years earlier and with a marriage offer in hand, rather than in the midst of their takeover.
Aemond and Daeron were also definitely old enough to have had betrothals arranged. And with Helaena free to marry, they could have made alliances with three great houses that were still on the fence, like the Baratheons, the Tullys or the Tyrells. And they should have done so before Viserys had died, rather than rushing to do so after they had crowned Aegon.
Helaena should have been betrothed to one of her brothers or Hightower cousin. Once a woman is married, she becomes a part of her husband's family. If Helaena was married to Lannister( foe example), he would ask dragon eggs for their children = Lannisters gain power.
And I think Viserys wouldn't allow it. In the book It looked like Viserys married Aegon and Helaena on purpose because they were too young (15 and 13, when Rhaenyra married Laenor at 18), so they wouldn't create alliances.
Agreed. I've always said that Rhaenyra, while admittedly at an unfair level as a woman, only made her situation more precarious with specifically chosing Laenor as her husband so that she could sleep with anyone she wanted, leading to obvious Bastards in the process.
Would've been interesting if Aemond grew without the tragedy of losing his eye and personal rivalry with the Strong Boys. If Aegon 2 said he wished to abdicate the Throne to his younger, more capable brother, I wonder how things would've changed.
Wait, wasn't it her father's demand that she married Laenor or lose her position as heir?
@@juliancain3872 Viserys gave her the opportunity to choose a husband (like Alicent suggested), but Rhaenyra kept stalling, and her reputation was almost ruined by Daemon
Man rhaenyra was so horrible politically, if she was just kinder, more pragmatic, and less like daemon she could have been queen
Well I actually have some sympathy for Rhaenyra in that like, mistakes that she made as a really spoiled child basically had a permanent effect on her ability to rule, and she was raised by someone who wasn't a very good politician either so she kind of had to bullshit her way through a lot of really sticky situations. However, when she was faced with a bad situation, she oftentimes made REALLY big and irreversible missteps that solidified that her claim would always be contested and she would always have an incredibly hard time holding on to the throne.
If she had people around her telling her where she is wrong and showing her the right way and actually helping her become a ruler and a good polifician and if she actually listened, then she could have been a good ruler. If she has something who she listened to and someone who had the realms intrest in mind.
She was queen tho … for a time
@@itrulydontcare and she didn't listen well to people around her, not like she had well intrested people around her. And the time she ruled, the environment was of civil war. It is said she grew paranoid and all.
@@Ruchi5297 you right. Too bad she had daemon instead teaching her
It’s literally Laenor’s fault that Rhaenyra had bastards. He refused to give her children so of course she had to look elsewhere
Well it’s not that he refused. They did try to conceive. I’m guessing Laenor couldn’t get it up or he couldn’t finish. I don’t know why anyone thinks that a gay man can fuck a woman on a whim. Duty or not, you cannot force attraction.
true I don’t see anyone mentioning this
Actually it stated that he did try but then they were never able to conceive
They said that they tried, but it didn't work. However, if Rhaenyra had picked someone who looked similar to Laenor and kept it as discreet as possible, no one would really have been able to prove that they weren't legitimate.
@@mariavi33 Honestly, who but Daemon would have been available and willing to keep their mouth shut?
Even monarchies cannot function without a basic framework of laws and not just by “it was duh kang’s word”. Otherwise, if a king as influential as Jaehaerys' word meant nothing soon as he died, then why should Viserys' word mean anything after his death? The Great Council was clearly a legal body, in style of the Zemsky Sobor that chose the Russian Tsar, meant to set precedent for all future successions. Here's why : the Small Council advises the king. It does not officially vote a ruling into existence. But Jaehaerys didn't say "the Great Council simply advised me and I chose the king", he deferred to the Great Council's vote entirely. The king wasn't chosen by the Great Council's "advise", it was chosen by the Council's "vote". Which means it was defacto a law making body. And more importantly, I believe Viserys cannot overturn a precedent that made him king in the first place, without illegitimating his own reign.
Just take a second to think how hypocritical that was for Viserys. Rhaenys WAS the rightful heir as Aemon's daughter, but the Great Council chose Viserys because he was a man. They exercised male primogeniture, therefore setting it as a precedent. Westeros is not male exclusive but with rare exceptions the inheritance has always passed to the male son first. A precedent which Rhaenyra Targaryen and her sons happily affirmed when she had multiple opportunities to press Baela's claim, or that of the elder daughters of Rosby, Stokeworth etc, and bypassed them for male heirs. Even when she was winning the war. Ask Viserys II how he felt about Daena's claim to the throne!! I guess the OG Viserys would've done well to remember what Jace said in the show, "a king should honor the traditions of his forebears".
This whole thing about the king's "wish". It is an illusion and completely dependent on what he can and cannot enforce. Power resides where men believe it resides. The kings who succeeded, like Jaehaerys or Daeron II, all understood the necessity of compromise along with force. Viserys had no ability to enforce his decision. Therefore the blame lies on him for going forward with it. Unless you consider Viserys a mythical god, then there was no reason for the Greens to abide by his pie in the sky delusions. If everyone else wanted Rhaenyra there would've been no civil war and the Hightowers would've been crushed. But instead the 3 richest kingdoms supported Aegon.
I always thought marrying Aegon and Helaena was one of the greens biggest mistake, they could have married each of them to different lords daughters and sons of the realm, if they did that, they would weaken Rhaenyra's support of the other lords and it would be easier to start a war after having more supporters on their side.
Maybe if aegon got bethroed to a Velaryon then they could steal the black's main ally 👀
@@Janary08 even I was thinking that. If aegon was to marry one of the velaryon girls, rhaenys and the other velrayons would have definitely sided with the greens just for her grandchild, one of their own to be the queen. Helaena could have been married to another big lord to create an alliance for the greens, so that they can use it later on. Marrying aegon and haelna really tied their hands although it was viserys who's decision it was to get them married.
you can't let the targ blood get out too much especially halaena who is a dragonrider. Imagine Lannisters or Tyrells with dragons.
@@redtech4798 i know that but just imagine what could have happened if the greens tried to make alliance through marriage. It's a less likely scenario but this could have helped them. Okay not marrying haelana out of the family but making an alliance through aegon was definitely a missed opportunity for them but it was viserys decision. Just imagine, Halena could have been married in the vales, arryns so that the greens would have their support later on. It would definitely create a confict as rhaneyra too is related to them. But yes a very less likely scenario which could have dangerous consequences.
@@Ruchi5297 They are not Velaryon girls, they are Targaryen. The greens wouldn't have been able to forge an alliance through Corlys' granddaughters because they are Daemon's children. Only Daemon gets a say in their marriage.
I swear your videos are always the best I’ve never heard anyone take this approach before or explain the situation from this view honestly your videos are so insightful
Yeah if I was Otto, when Viserys died, I would have taken Alicent and all her children and their dragons to Oldtown, and set up an unofficial king in the south type situation a la Dreamfyre Rhaena being queen in the west. With Rhaenyra and Daemons lack of diplomacy towards the high lords, and the problem of the strong boys, the Hightowers could have slowly built up trust and loyalty with many houses, while keeping their own hands clean and not explicitly trashing Rhaenyra and Daemon, just letting their actions speak for themselves. Even if Daemon did try to burn down Oldtown, they’d have four dragons, including Vhgar to stop him, and the realm would certainly turn against Rhaenyra and Daemon if they started kinslaying people who haven’t even publicly gone against them.
I think had Rhaenyra been raised to be more politically savvy she would actually be a great ruler as she has the will to power clearly, but she needed knowledge and couth to balance it out. But I also see the sticky situations on the Velaryons and Hightowers. Getting betrothed to Velaryon means she gets to keep the second most influential house in Westeros happy, but if she had married one of Alicent's brothers or cousins from her uncle (Otto's brother being the first-born son of his generation) that would've been enough to curb the Greens enthusiasm and garner her support. With Otto Hightower politicking to the benefit of his son/nephew, the Lords would have eventually been on board with Rhaenyra as queen. That being said, I still prefer Rhaenyra to Aegon. The situation is just fascinating because there's so much that could've been done to prevent it that didn't get done.
I think there’s a lot of things about the dynamics between the two, Rhaenyra by all accounts seems to have been coddled by Viserys in contrast there’s little to no mention of Aegon’s relationship with his father. They’re both glutinous; Aegon drinks and Rhaenyra eats. There’s a ton of hypocrisies on Rhaenyra’s sides as she denies the first born Daughters of Stokeworth and Rosby for the rights of the Male heirs (If you read closely Daemon sides with Rosby and Stokeworth because his Daughters rights to Driftmark would be challenged in favor of Corlys’ legitimized bastard) she steals Vaemond’s claim but asks the Lords of the Realm to honor hers, her treatment of Bastards etc. and Aegon seems to have an authority problem, he rarely listens to his council
I always encourage people to read the story for themselves and not listen to fans that may try to sway their opinions. To me it’s about two characters that don’t “deserve” the throne
I care more for character’s stories than I do “morals” so I find that I enjoy a much wider range of characters and stories but the sins of everyone involved I fear might be something that the show may miss with their thematic direction and need for a “hero”
Never stop making videos!! Love this take!!
The catch to this is that there is no way to let Rhaenyra take the throne and temporarily avoid a civil war without submitting to her publicly, which is in turn going to bolster her legitimacy and (probably most importantly for a large chunk of the Green faction) would give executive authority to Daemon. The Greens couldn't just run away to Oldtown without igniting a civil war, which would put them in the same position just without King's Landing and its wealth and political legitimacy.
And (spoilers for the book ahead), its noteable that despite Rhaenyra basically doing nothing to secure her own succession and frequently undermining it, she actually ends up with four of the seven great houses backing her and the Greens effectively only have one. (The Baratheons join the war very late and by the time they do, the Lannisters have effectively been knocked.) Not to mention that a good chunk of both the Reach and the Crownlands side with Rhaenyra. And while a good chunk of this was due to particular local concerns - Lady Arryn (in a point that the show rather bizzarely doesn't actually bring up) wants to protect her own rights as lady of the Vale, the Tullys and Starks seem to have a long standing antipathy towards the Lannisters and it wouldn't surprise me if the Starks similarly don't like the heavily Faith aligned Hightowers/Greens as well, Dalton Greyjoy is just nuts and wants to pillage and the Greens are closer, the various Reach houses dislike the Hightowers for getting ideas above their station etc... - a skilled political operator could turn this into a coalition with very few weak spots. Now there are obvious differences betweeen the book and the show - in the former for example its a lot more ambiguous whether Daemon had anything to do with either Rhea Royce or Laenor Velaryon's death - but the Green position isn't necessarily a solid one.
The wider implication of this is interesting because it implies that the Greens as a political faction are far more court-centric than it might appear. A good historical analogy might not be anything in the medieval period but how the 'bad' emperors of Ancient Rome (such as Nero, Caligula, and Domitian) were seen in Rome by the senatorial class versus their reception in the streets and the provinces. Its perfectly possible that everything that was ever said about Nero is true, for instance, but there were still people claiming to be Nero launching rebellions years afterward. Presumably because whatever Nero was doing in the capital, he was still presiding over a period of military success abroad and prosperity at home and you only have to be a short distance away from the action before kicking senators while they are down becomes a positive in many people's eyes at best and not really an issue at worst.
My point is that while it might have been objectively advantageous to let Rhaenyra crash and burn, it was definitely not a given she would and the Greens were far weaker than they appeared, which meant they either had to strike now and hope that would it would any doubters on side or knuckle under completely for the Blacks.
The strengths of the Greens were their institutional perks and advantages. If Rhaenyra is crowned and declared Queen - she can change the entire small council, and secure the treasury. Once that is done it is much harder to remove her as she can now secure the symbolism of being ruler. She simply needs a prime minister/ hand of the queen who can do the real work of administration. Anyone from a leading Lannister to Corlys Velaryon can step up for that role.
Despite Aegon’s obvious claims and rights, they make his crowning looks like an obvious usurpation.
Love this channel, great, individual videos. Very much enjoyed them
I just discovered your channel and I’m so freaking pumped to watch more of your videos
Your channel is the only one that brings some realy insightful and logical prespectives that takes into account the politics, laws and traditions of westeros instead of judging this story and characters based on our 21 century morals great job
What makes the Strong boys' situation so complicated, is that they are not openly bastards, as in officially. Officially, they are true-born heirs, and to some degree, I think that makes their life harder than most high-born bastards who are openly so.
*_Wouldn't it have been possible for Rhaenyra to openly admit to having bastards early on, when Jace & Luke were toddlers, explain why to her father with Laenor by her side, have them legitimized since Kings have that power?_*
Orys Baratheon was rumored to be a Aegon the Conequeror's bastard brother. He was legitimized and allowed to found his own house. Many high lords and high-born ladies, including Targaryens married into the Baratheon family, meaning they openly allowed themselves to marry into a family that was founded on bastardy.
Yeah If only Viserys didn't avoid that issue and letting it blow up later on for his daughter
You can not legitimize them as Targaryens, they are legitimized as nobility like Ramsay Snow - Ramsey Bolton. Daemon Waters -- Daemon of "House" Blackfyre, Jace Waters - Jace whatever house he starts.
@@redtech4798 I don't understand what you mean? If Ramsay was made a Bolton, why can't Jace, Luke, & Joffrey be made Targaryens? Daemon Blackfyre started his own house.
@@Mic-Mak once legitimized, would the strong boys have higher claim on the Iron Throne than Daemon's sons?
@@nunyabiznes33 Technically, yeah, I think so. But maybe it can be negotiated.
If the Greens had allowed Rhaenyra to take the throne, I doubt any of them would have lived to smugly witness her downfall. She had already proved she had no love or care for her half-siblings, and Daemon is an unstoppable killing machine. Best-case scenario, Otto would be the only family member to die, and Rhaenyra would take her niece and nephews hostage under the guise of betrothal/stewardship to force the rest of the Greens to behave. In fact, to add insult to injury, she’d probably betroth Jahaera to Joffrey rather than Aegon or Viserys.
Worst-case scenario, Alicent and her entire family including the toddlers are Caraxes’s chow.
Even though I like Rhaenyra as a person (sort of) I don’t think she’s a bad person, but she suffers from the same massive ego issues as the rest of her family. Alicent has proven herself to be a good ruler and empathetic towards others while Rhaenyra is selfish at her core and cares little for her subjects. Daemon and an overall lack of guidance has made her unequipped to handle the throne especially due to the lack of respect she commands as a woman. It’s not her fault that the lords and common people don’t respect women rulers, however she knows better than to attempt to rule over those that don’t respect her authority. She knew that deep down, she didn’t want the throne or wouldn’t be the best candidate for it and she would have given it up if it weren’t for Lucerys murder. They should just call this the “War of shitty fathers making bad choices”.
Excellent video, congratulations on 12k and keep up the good work
I really like the nuance you bring to hotd analysis
Hill's Alive: "The Greens should have let Rhaenyra ascend the throne...
Rhaenyra Stans: Yeaaah!
Hill's Alive: "... because her political stupidity would have made her a terrible leader who the nobles and commoners would love to overthrow."
Rhaenyra Stans: Wait, what?
Seriously though, brilliant strategy, although only Tywin Lannister would be patient and cunning enough to pull something like that off. Otto Hightower has political savvy, but his plans aren't very nuanced. Also, while waiting for Rhaenyra to screw up could be a perfect plan, it would also increase the chances of her or Daemon striking first at the Greens. After all, Doran Martell waited patiently to get his revenge on Tywin, in the books at least, and his plans fell apart because he was so subtle other schemers made and executed plans of their own. ASOIAF makes it very clear it is really, really hard to anticipate and control all factors when making a big, ambitious plan.
letting rhaenyra "fail on her own" will be a too great a risk for greens. even if she didn't want to, her supporters, deamon in particular, would try to kill them. and as with veamond, they would legitimize such tyrannical crimes through the queen. and other such crimes they would just ignore as with deamon's wife. and as long as there is no widespread and continuous depredation of many people and houses, there wont be any resistance due to isolated crimes with justifiable excuses or plausible deniability, even though nobody believes either. as machiavelli advises ( and this world has most in common with 15th century italy) prince can commit crimes as long as he stays away from people's money and women, and packages the crimes all together ( usually through of someone else) instead of spreading them out.
So your suggestion is that the Green's act...by doing nothing and letting Rhaenrya take the throne? Let her ruin herself and then seat Aegon as a better alternative? If Jace's legitimacy was actually in question after Rhaenrya's ascension to the throne, then succession could just as easily pass on to her trueborn sons with Daemon. Either way this is a lot of "what if's". What if Rhaenrya turned out to be a good queen? What if she actually gained political influence instead of losing it? What if Daemon used his power as King Consort to weaken the greens? Playing your hand too late can be just as detrimental to losing as playing it too soon. It's easy to make these strategies as a reader or viewer in this case, but these are characters who have ideas, fears and motivations of their own. They aren't looking to sit a decent or good person on the throne because that person would deserve it, they're looking towards their own interests and gains. The thought that they'd have to give up a little power with the possibility of gaining significant more in the future would be outrageous to them.
Another great video like always! It's so nice to see someone that considers both sides and understands that both are kinda bad. I would love to see a deep analysis of Viserys and your takes on him. He was the creator of this dance after all.
I never really get the argument of the blacks when they say the velaryon kids aren't bastards. It doesn't matter if the kids can ride dragons or if they are Rhaenyra's. All that matters is that they were born from the seed of a man who was not Rhaenyra's husband therefore they are bastards, end of the story.
Yes, and although I empathize with the fact that she was kind of caught between a rock and a hard place, as we see with a lot of high powered people like Ned or Robert Baratheon, having bastards in itself isn't a disqualifier for leadership, it just means that those children are not in the line of succession for big inheritances, especially in front of legitimate children. The fact that Rhaenyra is a woman with bastards obviously complicates things, but she made the worst decisions possible by really trying to pull a fast one and essentially legally usurp Driftmark and the Iron Throne itself for people who didn't have a legal claim to it, and literally KILLING people who spoke out against that took a bad decision and made it exponentially worse.
There is no DNA tests in Westeros, aslong as Leanor claims them it is impossible to prove that they are bastards
Well proof of their bastardy probably wouldn't matter that much though. Within the ASOIAF universe, how children look obviously has a huge influence over how they're perceived, and although Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen were "claimed" by Robert and their parentage wasn't even disputed until after he was dead, a literal civil war was started largely on the basis of the fact that all of Cersei's children looked like Lannisters instead of Baratheons, and also because a very high ranking lord was killed, seemingly to cover up the fact that Cersei's kids were bastards. So, given that the Strong boys don't look like Rhaenyra OR Laenor and essentially very strongly take after the Strongs, and given that Vaemond Velaryon was killed for publicly accusing them of being bastards, it is not hard to believe that the accusations and their appearances would have a huge impact on their claims.
@@HillsAliveYT plus the matter what we think of the Targaryens they inspire people so her conduct would inspire other women to do what she does and could potentially cause a pre blackfyre world war on the seven kingdoms and firstborn daughters eliminating their siblings based off being born first. Just because dorne does it does not mean all of the kingdoms can afford to
Thanks for your videos
Another great video, but I have to say I think people are taking the "Rhaenyra would be a bad ruler" idea too far. In the book we see her fumble with Kingslanding because of the taxes, which she only did because of Tyland hiding the gold. Besides that and her defense of her bastard sons, IMO there isn't a ton of evidence that Rhaenyra would have been a bad ruler. She would have inherited Viserys's peace (who he inherited from Jaehaerys) and probably could have continued it until the matter of her own succession came up. In the first time skip episode we do see that she is more reasonable and knowledgeable at ruling than Alicent. While it is completely possible that in a peaceful timeline she would screw up as Queen, I think the idea that she as unfit to rule as Aegon II does not have enough evidence to be a real argument for the greens.
this argument of the person in this video is full of assuming Rhaenyra’s rule. Which is why i don’t get team green stans at times. they talk about how both are terrible, but want the least capable person on the throne out of the two.
How she treated Lords that were asking for hand was a clear indication of what she thinks of lesser Lords.. She also did nothing to endear herself to said Lords and hid on dragonstone
-she raised taxes instead of asking Corlys/other lords to help her and still wanted to throw a huge party for Joffrey
( actually, she made a lot of mistakes, but she lost her son and it was a war, so let's just analyze the decisions she made before the war started )
-it was shown that she doesn't care about alliances ( she spent 6 years doing nothing)
-she was rude with lords and openly made fun of them when they asked her for her hand ( she was already 18, c'mon)
-she gave birth to 3(!) obvious basterds, without thinking that it could have led to conflict with the Velaryons
-she didn't even try to be a good older sister to her brothers.in fact, she offered to torture her 10 y.o brother
-the decision to "kill" Laenor and almost immediately marry Daemon was ruthless bc:
a) it was very clear that she and Daemon were responsible for his death
b) Viserys purposefully named Rhaenyra heir because he+small council didn't want Daemon to be the next king.
I always adore your videos. The greens made many tactical mistakes.
So everyone except Otto doesn't know how to rule, both Black or Green?
Good analysis as usual from Hill's Alive. My thing is that it was a no-win situation for the Greens. They had no choice but to crown Aegon cause as long as Daemon lived it was the only window they had. Once Daemon sat on that throne (I mean Rhaernya, but you know what I mean), it would've been impossible to dislodge him. He would've purged and stamped out all opposition with five times the ruthlessness of Otto.
The Green's were basically backed in a corner due to the political steps by the black faction for Rhaenyra married into house Valyreon first giving "3 sons" of the Valyreon name who could seat the iron throne two of which promised to the Valyreon in marriage. Yet biggest was the marriage to the rogue prince who was know to kill any political enemies. Who literally because he could ran off to the disputed islands and conquered it against the combine forces of the Triarchy and the Pirate Kings. Basically they knew once daemon seats that throne first order is to eliminate all rivals.
It's sad because larys strong in ser perkin the flea kills Aegon ii Targaryen with poison R.I.P Aegon ii 😢
The problem comes with the fact that both Otto and Alicent believed (rightfully so) that if Rhaenyra were to take the throne she would immediately begin to purge any threats to her power and that of the Strong Boys. A move not only motivated by her own political safety but also due to the massive influence that Daemon, an enemy of House Hightower would have as King Consort.
A swift coup, quickly capturing all simbols of legitimacy and the loyalty of the great houses was the safest bet at survival against the Blacks, especially if you consider that those are the only advantages of the Greens at the time, as Rhaenyra still has the upper hand military, with control of the Narrow Sea and more dragons.
I understand where you’re coming from and the reasons enlightened me to a different perspective. However I still think that putting Aegon on the throne was the better move for the greens because that gives them a leg up in the war as they were able to get other houses to side with them. And based on how different Rhaenyra became once the crown was put on her head as a character, I doubt she would’ve dig her own grave in the long run because the show started portraying her as a strategic and thoughtful leader in the final episode
Imagine if Aemond had been the firstborn son… my god the Dance would have been different.
LOL well I actually love that GRRM created this whole messy civil war and succession crisis for two leaders who are just complete fucking flops. Like y'all really tore the world apart for these two astoundingly mediocre goofs, peak Targaryen nonsense.
@@HillsAliveYT It's kind of a George think to make the second sons super competent
aemon's aroggance cost the greens so much he isn't any better.
@@Midnightsstan521 Only foot soldiers ride to battle.
Crowning Aegon as soon as they did was politically brilliant on the Greens' part. All signs of political legitimacy were vested in Aegon. He wore the conqueror's crown, bears the conqueror's name, wield's the conqueror's sword, and was anointed by a priest in front of the masses. This may not mean much to Rhanerya and the Blacks, but to the ignorant, gullible smallfolk this symbolism matters. In their eyes, Aegon is the true king, while Rhanerya is the usurper. It helps that a medieval society would be patriarchal and tend to favour the son over the daughter. If she doesn't command the respect and devolution of her subjects, how can Rhanerya realistically expect to rule.
Interesting discussion! Love these
I suspect that Otto isn't quite as smart as he thinks he is.
In fact, I suspect that he wanted to make sure he got to get all the glory in his lifetime, rather than waiting longer, so he jumped on the first opportunity.
I agree with the points in this video, but still disagree with the overall conclusion, for one simple reason: the blacks know all of this too! And so, killing the greens to eliminate any rival claimants those future opponents of Rhanyra's regime could rally around would likely be their course of action to ensure her reign would be secure, as Otto himself seemed to know decades prior.
The greens just could not afford to take the risk, not when their necks are on the line.
Nah I can't see it. In medieval times people were religious so coronation would've been the most important symbol of legitimately. Usurpations where lesser heirs raced to capital cities to be crowned have happened in history and they are hard to reverse, treasonous as they may be. No matter who is "the rightful king or queen" by right of lineage the actual king or queen is the one who is sitting on the country's throne. This is why there's Aegon II but no Rhaenyra I. He was crowned fist. Also, it's a huge advantage to control the levers of state and not be a traitorous challenger to the throne. Aegon's personally and lack of desire for the throne would also be a problem in a rebellion with him at the center. Like you said in the video, Rhaenyra's best chance was to build a powerbase for her future reign. The purpose of that is so Aegon being crowned king would become impossible because if that happened it would be game over. My scenario was going off of the premise that Aegon was a usurper but the fact that Westeros would probably see him as the true heir his coronation would be even worse for Rhaenyra. The most problematic issue for Rhaenyra however is not that she has bastards but rather that they are in line for the iron throne over her true born sons. Forget about the Greens if Jacerys and his descendants took the throne then Aegon III or his descendants would fight for it themselves. This is some Aegon IV level of decision making from Rhaenyra.
The Queen of Feet should have dialed it back a bit
Imagine if Aegon and Aemond's birth order was switched (the show versions at least, not the book ones). As Aemond points out, he studied and trained, and of the available options would've made an excellent candidate for king (who actually WANTED it), but because Aegon was born first....
Very interesting!
This is a really interesting idea, if either side had been more calculating and held off a for a while letting the other side implode. Aegon seemed like he was set up to be a terrible king and even he knew that. Letting his own child who he could have easily set up with a comfortable safe life fight as essentially a child slave in the fighting pits. He clearly seemed like an alcoholic who was on a self destructive path, didn’t want power and didn’t care for duty. Maybe the lords or westoros would have ended up seeing him as an incompetent king especially if he did nothing when Westeros had crises or lords had disputes they wanted resolved. However if he had ended up abdicating or was pushed into abdicating by family, Aemond would have probably been favored over Rhaenyra. The lords would have probably looked more fondly on this as abdication was something that had happened before in the royal line, but a queen was not. But who knows maybe Rhaenyra could have bided her time and made her case before lords and gained allies when unpopular unengaged Aegon was drinking himself to death and the realm was coming apart at the seams? Maybe they would have looked at Alicent’s whole side of the family as incompetent for not pushing Aegon into action even though he might not have cared to listen to any of them. Aegon kind of reminds me of Robert Baratheon not really caring about power beyond it providing him with the ability to drink and have sex with whoever was around and not caring for governing. But yeah the race to throw a crown on the head of someone and present them to the masses probably should have been more calculated. Maybe Otto ended up being desperate for his efforts of marrying Alicent to the king to finally pay off for his family line. especially after being disgraced and demoted and sent back to Oldtown all those years ago because that was what Rhaenyra wanted and agreed to marriage on that term? Really enjoying your content and theories! :)
It's sad because larys strong in ser perkin the flea kills Aegon ii Targaryen with poison R.I.P Aegon ii 😢
Any plans to do a video about Dunk and Egg? I’m finishing up Knights of the Seven Kingdoms this week and I always like to listen to others thoughts after as well as anything important I may have missed
*_Even if the Strong boys were not legitimized, but instead were openly bastards, couldn't Rhaenyra & Viserys have made it work by making Aegon the Younger her heir? And by doing that, couldn't they potentially have brought in Dorne as an ally, by proposing a marriage between Aegon the Younger, and one of their heirs?_* That way, Dorne joins the Seven Kingdoms, a century early, and they wouldn't look down on the Strong boys, since they are friendlier to both bastards, and acknowledge first borne female heirs.
If only they picked Aemond to be King over Aegon.
LOL clearly Aemond would have been better but then we would have missed out on all of the iconic "you want ME to be your king ARE Y'ALL OUT OF YOUR MINDS" scenes with Aegon.
The kings aren’t picked Aegon is just oldest and then his son is next in line after him
The whole point of them crowning Aegon is because it is according to the law of the land. If they tried to put a second born son on the throne over the king's declared heir and his first born son, it wouldn't have had precedent.
I guess they could have faked Aegon's death?
@@monie3558 Potential heirs can willingly drop out of the line of succession. That's what I mean by "picked". They'd have pressured Aegon to publicly declare "I don't want the throne, Instead I support my brother Aemond and his descendants as rightful heirs to the throne".
I believe Maestor Aemon did the exact same thing. We have some real life examples of this too, such as King Edward VIII of the UK.
*daeron* would have been the best of them all. too bad he was the youngest.
I think the only thing you missed would be the “accidental” deaths of the greens after Rhaenyra’s ascension. These are ,after all, two murderous tyrants who hate more than half of their family.
This does assume though that Rhaenyra does not execute Aegon and the Greens the moment she ascends the throne. It's quite possible that she wouldn't, and I happen to guess that she wouldn't, but that IS what Alicent feared she would do, at least. And it can't be ruled out. If she did that then there would be no Green faction left to do anything.
Rhaenys busting through the Dragon pit on the Red Queen was so dumb. I wanted to see Alicent drop to her knees after placing her own crown upon her daughters head
I don’t know if I would say Rhaenyra is an inept ruler. Yes having blatant bastard children was not a great call but if the alternative was not having children that also would not strengthen her position.
In Fire and Blood a lot of the bad calls she makes that get her in trouble with the common people are direct responses to the Greens actions. She allows dragon seeds to attempt to claim dragons so she has a stronger chance in battle. Something she was reluctant to do and probably would not have done if the Greens did not challenge her rule.
She also has to raise the taxes because in the short time that Aegon is on the throne he drains the treasury.
I think it’s fair to say she is not a very good general. Sending Rhaenys by herself, accusing Nettles and the Balaryon bastard of treason and the blood and cheese event were all terrible choices that severely hurt her ability to stay queen. But one of the major themes of this series is that good conqueres don’t necessarily make good rulers.
The play that the Greens should have made was to call a council of the Lords Paramount in order to try Rhaenyra for treason, not to decide who will get the crown.
The Greens should assume that Aegon is King, and let him or Otto as his hand preside, but state that they want the Lords to judge Rhaenyra's innocence or guilt since they are aware of the appearance of conflict of interest.
That would change the question from "who should inherit the crown" to "did Rhaenyra commit treason". Aegon, or Alicent or Otto acting in his stead, could offer Rhaenyra a deal to spare her life and her children's lives in exchange for her settling before before the case is tried and reading a statement that she never committed treason because she never seriously thought the she, as a woman, would or could inherit the crown or a lordship over the firstborn son. Rhaenyra would take the deal because the alternative would be arguing what the whole kingdom already knows WITHOUT Viserys there threatening to kill or maim anyone who would speak the truth.
Case closed. No blood shed. All the lords are happy.
Considering what Aegon is gonna phisically go through in his Next 12-18 months, hes gonna wish he took that ship to Esssos.
Just came across yet another analysis right here. Call it mistakes or blunders, we could as well say a lot of actual political events were also mostly mistakes that "people could have done better in", but they chose to be wrong anyway. I cannot assume political players to be either very dumb or very rational. This is just human. Humans make a lot of mistakes daily.
Some comments were already right pointing out Otto was scared by Daemon's murderous tendencies, for instance. FEAR is one major element in political conflicts. We can say whatever with our god perspective on the blacks vs greens universe. They could not. And we all know if it wasn't for absolute monarchy very likely not even Otto would have qualified to be on either team, if we assume both teams were vying for some presidential election.
House Valaryon is why I see why the Targeryens got into marrying siblings when they had dragons.
The Valaryons having Rhaenys as a matriarch allowed them to have three dragons at a point. Controlling Maleys, Seasmoke, and Vaghar along with the realms most powerful navy. Had they not make alliances with them, they could’ve easily claim to be more powerful than the crown
I don't think Daemon is actively trying to take his dead wife's inheritance. I think its just something he brought up to her cousin when he accused him so he'd shut up and drop the accusations.
The unspoken implication to me was "stop saying I killed my wife and I'll let you quietly inherit her seat instead of pressing my claim to it."
All of this assumes that Rhaenyra wouldn't have killed off her half brothers as soon as she became Queen. Otto was right to point out that striking quickly was their best chance. Any delay would have given Rhaenyra the pretext she needs to take them out first
Rhaeyna fails in everyway possible in the books plus Daemon was out there was going buck wild. If the greens stepped back and pulled their support from Kings landing. They would have had that throne within a year or two.
On the subject of Aegon being the Greens' candidate for the throne. I am fairly certain Aegon's inexperience in politics was a reason Otto wanted him as the king. An inexperienced king would likely turn to his hand and council on various matters. So i believe Otto was looking to be the true ruler of Westeros through his ineffective grandson.
Same way Tywin was the real power in King's Landing during his time as hand for Joffrey and Tommen.
One of the problems with the show is first season moves so fast. We don't really get to see if Rhynera learned from her early blunders.
To me, it would have been far riskier to let Rhynera(sp?) To take the thrown. Both Corlys and Daemon have shown how powerful their military might was ie. killing the crabfeeder. Add more dragons in the mix and you could see the greens at a martial disadvantage.
I don’t think show!Rhaenyra would off Alicent’s kids, book!Rhaenyra possibly, she was a little different. I understand the Greens’ POV, Daemon is violent, either way of choices being made: if Daemon was crowned an heir, or if Alicent didn’t show mercy, either way, it would have been bad results.
It all boils down to Viserys being a pushover, a lot could’ve been prevented if he didn’t marry Alicent. Otto is a scammer.
Can you make the same promise for Daemon? Her husband. He won't kill them all because she asks? Daemon would probably deal with Otto and Aemond personally.
Well, there are still Daemon+Rhaenyra's children: Aegon and Viserys who could be presented as rightful heirs. However, to put Aegon on the throne, Rhaenyra would have to admit she had a/several affair(s), which could already weaken her position. And worst, if the Greens find out that Laenor is still alive, it would be proof that Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage is illegitimate, making Rhaenyra's two last "legitimate" children bastards too.
My personal take is: monarchy sucks, succession laws suck, patriarchy sucks. But having only watch reviews from the show, I still don't get why Rhaenyra want the throne so much? She doesn't look interested in governing. Is it to honor her father's wish? She certainly doesn't respect his wish to get along with Alicent and co. Is it to protect her children? She's just exposing them to danger. If I was in her shoes , I would just refuse to marry (I've got a dragon after all), leave the throne to whoever is next in line and chill on dragonstone. Or maybe it's just entitlement and Daemon's influence. Sometimes it looks like it's more about Daemon vs Otto, the two pushing Rhaenerys and Allicent against each other.
Edit: Okay, I just remembered about the song of fire prophecy Vyseris told Rhaenyra. It seems like it was invented specially to give show Rhaenyra an altruistic motive to become queen of the 7 kingdoms. However it's funny how this prophecy is supposed to be kept secret. If I was a megalomaniac/Targaryen learning about a prophecy saying "keep my dynasty on the throne or no one will save you from the second Long Night", I'll make sure everyone hears about it.
5 years of absence and the marriage is annulled :P
I respectfully disagree.
I understand the reasoning of letting Rhaenyra fail on her own, but it is simply too big a risk for the Greens (and the realm). It would require sitting around waiting for people to care that her kids were bastards, or getting upset that a woman was on the throne, and then uprising. Basically hoping the people who didn't want her on the throne would do something to get her off the throne. But once she was on the throne WAR (in some way or another) was the only way to get her off.
But by crowning Aegon, the person their society, most comfortable with is on the throne, and people would rather keep the status quo, the added bonus that Otto and Allicent were already running the country, so basically Aegon represents (in the eyes of the average person) just a continuations of the people they've seen in power remain in power and most people would support stability.
Power resides where people believe it resides.
Rhaenyra as Queen would have had a tough time and may have failed, but if the Greens just let her take the Throne unchallenged that would be a silent admission that she was the rightful heir, and even if people hated the idea of her being Queen many would see Aegon not pushing a claim against her as support of her legitimacy and that means there would be those who would support her legitimacy because they believe the Greens do.
And although I am not a fan of the Greens what they did was masterful politics, they skipped that step of "whose claim is right?" And just acted as if theirs was, and presented it as such. And since they had been running the country for a decade, there would be those who just view it as natural and would welcome the stability.
Even if there were those who supported Rhaenyra, her sitting on the throne would cause instability on every level.
At the end of the day unless both sides decided to work together War was unavoidable. And given that Aegon taking the throne was the smart thing to do, it was their biggest advantage if anything they didn't do enough with it.
The problem with this take is you are not considering who Rhaenyra’s consort is at that point. Right now, if Rhaenyra had taken the throne Daemon would’ve moved swiftly to neutralize the threat that his nephews posed. That wasn’t even a question in anyone’s mind so yeah I can see why Aegon was crowned when he was. Otto was basically saying to Daemon at this point “knuck if you buck.” We all know Daemon will buck.
Even if the situation were to unfold as the video suggests & Rhaenyra was deposed & her bastards exempt from the throne, would Aegon II necessarily be next in line or would the throne just go to Rhaneyra's trueborn son Aegon III? In the latter case I don't think the Greens, especially Otto, would be content to wait things out.
All Rheanyra's kids ar bastards Polygamy and ser leanor is still alive is outlawed but the kept the incestuous relations.
I love this channel 💕 casting the Velaryons as black made it UNDENIABLE that those boys were Strong's.
There's also the fact that by usurping the chosen heir to the throne, Rhaenyra, it sets the precedent for having the lords of westeros to just ursurp whatever crowned heir they don't like; after all if the greens did it why not someone else in the future? Wich itself will lead to more possible civil wars between factions loyal to the original heir and the ones loyal to the one who was put in the throne through treachery.
This show just reinforced my belief that the targaryens suck and I'm glad the dragons died and they lost power. The hightowers are a necessary evil
I so agree with you. The show writers evidently had to develop a story from the narrative of J.R.R. Martin and they did not do a good job. Passible at most, and many scenes are very good, but the their story lacks depth and understanding of human nature. Thinking bak to Game of thrones (the first book) the author's understanding of humans is so much better and there is no artificial conflicts and no contrived events that simply move the plot in the desired direction.
In part I agree, but if Rhaneyra is placed as queen it will be much more difficult to get her out of there, maybe she will make good alliances and manage the kingdom fairly well, also with dragons she can become a tyrannical queen, and if she abdicates or is assassinated his eldest son will take his place. It is true that many nobles would conspire to assassinate or depose her, but it is not something that the greens have 100% assured. They would put their firstborn married to a daughter of daemons and the Velaryions would support the marriage taking the throne, the blacks won again and Daemond would be able to murder Alicent's children being king consort just like he did with his wife just like Rhaneyra with his (although in the series he did not murder him in the eyes of all Westeros if he did), they are a couple of assassins who kill all that nobleman who gets in their way, wouldn't they do the same with the children of alicent in Oldtown ? It is risking too much for the greens.