How Tywin's Narcissism & Ego Destroyed House Lannister
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- Опубликовано: 7 июн 2024
- Tywin Lannister is typically viewed as one of the smartest, most badass characters in A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones. However, Tywin actually let his ego and narcissism get in the way of his every goal, and the belief in his abilities as a politician and commander actually seem to be in direct contrast to who he truly was.
Content Of This Video:
00:00 Intro
01:41 Young Tywin's Overreach
02:52 Tywin's Deranged Behavior With The Reynes & Tarbecks
07:48 How Tywin Managed To Make Aerys Look Rational
10:30 Tywin's Endless Self-Sabotage
13:44 His Red Wedding Fails
16:01 Tyrion & Sansa's Waste Of A Marriage
18:11 Conclusion 
Развлечения
Tiniest of inconvinience: exist
Tywin: "So you choose death."
What a briliant tactician.
Cersei had to get it from somewhere
Not only her.
Not at all actually. The Reynes and Tarbeks were leaders of a sizeable alliance no other members of this alliance got the Rains of Castamere treatment, the Tyrells actively took up arms against his family and he married his grandkids to them. Same with the Freys and they betrayed him despite being kin by marriage. Yet he still gives them an unbelievable sweetheart deal and uses them to bring a whole front of the war to an end. If Tywin was the reflexive brute this comment made him out to be none of this would be true.
@@adamantiiispencespence4012 The Reynes and Tarbecks were outnumbered 3:1, no sizeable alliance. Comparison to the Tyrells is even worse. They are another great House with the most swords and food while Tywin was losing a civil war and KL was starving. Wholesale slaughter of the Tyrells was not possible. The Freys escaped short-term accountability by doing Tywin’s dirty work, mitigating his battlefield losses at the RW, yet I doubt it will be a sweetheart deal in the end for them.
@@huscarl00 the Reynes and Tarbeks had their own vassals and allies the only reason Tywin outnumbered them so severely was he had started drawing his levies from houses that had answered his calls for repayment of debts or hostages before they revolted as he knew they would when summoned to "answer for their crimes". He baited them and then blitzed them when they took the bait. Otherwise the Westerlands probably would've wound up in an outright civil war. I also don't mean to draw any comparison with houses Reyne and Tarbek with house Tyrell as my main point is that Tywin very calculated and not unthinkingly and inflexibly retributionary.
I think partly why people view Tywin somewhat favorably is because of Charles Dance’s performance of him, which I thought he did really great as and added a lot of depth to his character that made him more likeable (still was a terrible person though). But reading the books to me Tywin is pretty unequivocally a horrible, brutal person full of very deep insecurities, it is no small wonder that his children often exhibit some of his worst tendencies, most notably Tyrion and Cersei, which ultimately leads to their house’s downfall. The one thing Tywin didn’t want was to repeat the mistakes of his father and let his house fall in prestige and yet ironically this obsession is what eventually leads his house to ruin again, it’s poetic that in his efforts to avoid what his father did he ended up doing the same thing.
It’s similar to the perception of snape in the Harry Potter movies, he’s an awful guy in the books and a bit in the movies but people loved Alan Rickman and can only see Snape as Alan.
@@lucyluu02 yea that's a really great example I didn't even think about that but you're right
Charles Dance had so much charisma that people forgot Tywin was a baddie. A similar thing is happening in the House of the Dragon with Daemon.
@@lucyluu02 The difference with Snape is that GRRM never tried to redeem Tywin Lannister. JK Rowling tried to redeem Snape and that attempt was shit.
She litterally made him an incel who turned fascist because his childhood crush ended up dating his bully, wich makes him even more pathetic.
And that's the problem: JK Rowling is good at writing kid's books. She sucks at anything more nuanced and mature than that, so the way she tried to redeem Snape was shit, but got a pass to the eyes of the audience because of Alan Rickman's performance.
hard to deny Charles Dance makes you want to like the character, is sorta an issue with all the villains now cause the actors are all loveable
Honestly I feel like Roose Bolton fits the "Intelligent villain" role far better than Tywin. He's not as easily quotable, but he simultaneously retains a perception of general politeness and mild mannered discourse while also commanding the fear of every other individual in the room through subtext alone. While there are horrible rumors about him he never gives them a grand acceptance the way that Tywin does with "Rains of Castamere" and in fact he makes an extreme effort to hide his more villainous aspects, something that has played well in his favor. Because no lord can come up with a genuine reason to oppose him they essentially can't despite the fact that he is one of the more abhorrent and terrifying characters in the books.
--
Roose: "People fear you."
Ramsay: "Good."
Roose: "You are mistaken. It is not good. No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours."
--
I think this is what makes him so interesting, he recognizes the innate privilege of his situation but never seems to overplay his hand. In fact, that tends to be the main point of contention between him and Ramsay. Interestingly despite the fact that other characters recognize how cruel and villainous Ramsay is, and the fact that Ramsay flaunts it openly, they all seem to recognize that Roose is the real danger in any given moment.
"This is no man to jape with. You had only to look at Bolton to know that he had more cruelty in his pinky toe than all the Freys combined." -Theon Greyjoy. I find this quote particularly interesting because Theon is actively being tortured by Ramsay, and he still mentions that "The son is just the shadow of the father." Implying to me at least that Roose could and would do far worse.
When I saw ASOIAF picture of Roose, I thought: it's a human Dark Eldar (from Warhammer 40000, purely evil space elves).
Agreed, I mean the manner Ramsey was conceived alone speaks volumes
I think this plays into the idea that Ramsay might also be the downfall of House Bolton in the books
@@TheGoodLuc If the Bolt-On theory turns out to be true, maybe.
I was so disappointed when Ramsay just got rid of him so easily in the show, I hope the books do him justice.
Losing Jaime in the battle of the whispering wood threw him off more than he would've liked to admit. It scared him so bad
Because despite the laws of the realm basically saying Jamie can't be heir anymore, in Tywin's mind it was a matter of time until he found a loophole, or he would just outright say FUck yall and do as he pleases, as he often does. lol
It's very interesting when contrasting the legacy of Tywin Lannister vs Eddard Stark because, for all of Tywin's belief that fear is better than love, it is the people who love Ned that are fighting for his family long after his death vs Tywin's legacy falling about as soon as he died.
Tywin's legacy fell worse than House Reyne. His own daughter even would be nothing but a second copy of Ellyn Reyne, who's death he cherished so much.
You forgot to talk about the Sack of King's Landing. It is the moment where the Martells start to despise the Lannisters due to Elia's brutal murder. While deplorable, it is understandable why Rhaenys and Aegon had to die to ensure no wars of succession. But Elia didn't need to die as without her children she was politically useless. Yet Tywin purposefully seems to turn a blind eye when the Mountain rapes and brutally murders Elia. There was no need but to satisfy his own vindictive tendencies. Aerys had Rhaegar marry Elia while he turned down Cersei in a very insulting manner. That must have made Tywin furious and he may have had Elia killed just for that. This did nothing except enrage the Martells to the point where they kind of unofficially seceded from the Seven Kingdoms and every member of that family wanted to kill the Lannisters.
In the books, he lamented The Mountain doing it in such an over-the-top way. He said his approach would have been to smother them with pillows. But of course he should have known by then he can't rely on The Mountain for anything strategic.
Honestly Aegon and Rhaenys could have been given to the Faith, keeping them alive but removed from politics. It was a choice to kill them.
@@9xprincess yeaaa but that's not really a good idea if you're trying to declare yourself king, in Robert's case, for him to reasonably make such a claim he has to eliminate everyone else that has a better claim than him so yea if he didn't want people schemeing to rebel against him to put a Targaryen back on the throne then the solution is to kill them. Of course Robert didn't NEED to become king at all he made that choice so the kids still didn't need to die ultimately had he just not decided to become king himself
@@brianm7287 That was what's his name aaauuhh starts with an a and an s? Manticore. Jeez hang on. AMORY LORCH. That guy. He murdered Rhaenys, the Mountain did Aegon and Elia.
Tywin never told Gregor to kill Elia, he sent the Mountain and Amory Lorch to kill Aegon and Rhaenys, and said Gregor killing Elia was entirely unnecessary. But yeah what did you expect.
As for Robert needing the twins dead, yes to keep him as King this would be a good idea, but he didn't need to be king. He could have named Aegon King and ruled as his father and regent, or been his hand and made Jon regent, or whatever, making Aegon loyal to him. Unlikely, at least for Robert, but this would have justified his killing of Rhaegar as something he felt he had to do but wasn't needlessly brutal.
Aegon may have been loyal to Robert as his father, and being raised by the other houses gives them more power.
Or, they could have kept Rhaenys alive at the least and wed her to Robert's eldest son, legitimizing his rule. Rhaenys was only three at the time, it takes only a year to make a baby, with Joffrey could have been bethrothed to her, to have them wed when he was fourteen and she was eighteen, or around that.
Joffrey is such a shit it would never have worked but it would have been a good idea.
Tywin truly thinks that absolute ruthlessness IS being smart. He doesn't comprehend the difference between the two. That's his fatal flaw. I love him as a villain. He's fantastically evil. Scorched-earth ruthless, hubristic(is that a word?) and astonishingly obtuse. I enjoyed when his character was on the page. I love a good villain, but one of their common flaws, across all genres and mediums, is their absolute love of their own perceived brilliance and excellence - which are never as great nor as dazzling as they think.
LOL yes, hubristic is a word, and I agree.
Tywin is a perfect hate sink! Reminds me of Sol Regem (From the Dragon Prince)!
Twyins Lannister is no Thel 'Vadam nor Tobirami Senju!
lol tywin is not that brutalist.he says "Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king at all. Aerys never understood that, but you will. When I've won your war for you, we will restore the king's peace and the king's justice". if you notice, he understands the importance of peaceful approach but he also understands a healthy dose of fear is alos important to keeep people in line
GRRM: "So this guy murdered an entire family that he had effectively already defeated including the children for no other reason than to satisfy a really questionable notion of reputation..."
Fandom: "Hehehehe brilliant move what a badass."
Sane person: "Uuh... are you guys ok?"
😂
@@HillsAliveYT omg Elia and her daughter are another example of this
He did it in order to make his house feared after his father made them a laughing stock. In one of the DVD extras, Jaime said that it had a favorable practical impact. Instead of sending armies, they only had to send a singer.
In his defense there are plenty examples of where such mercies have caused the life of the merciful, i bet if he let their family live they wouldve come back to exact revenge sooner or later the way the Greyjoys did with the Starks
But it removes tie problem for ever… when thinking of feudal lord your have to remember that to some extent this peopme work on like gangster levels of morality and what not . Like It’s important to make people fear you: and remove traitors in the long run … as in this people work on a very basic revange form of justice in their mentality
Besides gender which definitely contributes, I think a key difference in people's impression of the Lannisters is that Cersei is viewed as being dumb in-story. We are primed to find Cersei's flaws and to believe in the myth of Tywin. Cersei's failures also don't have the luxury of happening off-page before the story or being potentially attributable to some other source. Information about Tywin's past is tinted by his reputation, being tricked at the Green Fork can be seen as Robb being brilliant, the Red Wedding can be considered as him being forced into desperate measures, and Sansa's marriage is derailed so we never see the full failure of that plan.
Yes agreed, we're definitely primed to see Tywin and Cersei in the way that we see them as well, despite the fact that they have more in common than a lot of fans would believe.
Yeah the Main source about Tywins life was Pycelle if I remember correctly in World of Ice and Fire
A man who def likes Tywin
I think gender also plays a role in the ways that they go about it. Olenna's cunning is respected because she uses things which are more considered "women's means" - diplomacy, court politicking. Things that Cersei doesn't have the patience, temperament or the skills for.
Cersei's go-to tends to be brute force, or the threat of it (see her response to Maegery trying to "befriend" her being to immediately bring up the Castemeres), or to otherwise reference the wealth of the Lannisters. Both these moves would be considered "acceptable" if done by Tywin, Jaime or Tyrion, but when Cersei's doing it it doesn't come across as her "playing the game", but something she resorts to because she *can't*.
(Outside of the gender stuff, I think there's also an argument to made that she's arrogant enough to assume that as Queen and as arguably the only option for Tywin's heir, the game is "beneath her" in some ways.)
It's also because Tywin has a winning record while Cersei doing the exact same things but cutting corners because she thinks she's just as smart as her dad lead to everything backfiring on her. If Tywin had the same record in his formative years he would be a laughing stock also.
I can agree with you. Tywin's actions were completely deplorable and in time it would eventually will bite him in his butt. Plus his "dynasty" was destined to fail at the exact moment he died.
@Frozen ay which came from Tywin mistreating him all of his life
@Frozen ay "he didn't expect" is not a good excuse. In fact, he would never expect. He was blind to his own flaws.
@Frozen ay It's mentioned, I believe in WoIAF, that Egg brought in a lot of policies which benefited the small folk, and Tywin repealed these policies as hand. So no, he didn't bring peace and prosperity to the realm, he rolled back all of Aegon's reforms to the benefit of the aristocracy and his policies were likely hated.
Tywin would have served as the strong, unwavering backbone of the realm behind the scenes if that ill-made, spiteful little imp hadn't ventured through that chamber door. I hope the next westerosi winter is so wicked that it causes Tyrion's eyes and dick to freeze then shatter
Yeah but I’d like to meet the people who actually this dude was an honorable nice “good” leader. That was established in the first book 😂
Love this! Tywin's my favorite ASOIAF character but he's much more nuanced and flawed than his legion of stans believe. He *WANTS* you to think he's a pragmatic Hard Man Making Hard Choices, but the reality is he's as insecure and riddled with Daddy Issues as his own children; he's simply much better at hiding it. He's also excessively brutal even by Westeros's grim standards. Now, to give the devil his due, there's ample evidence in the source material and from GRRM that Tywin is a brilliant administrator and image politician. The fact that the reign of the Mad King was largely a prosperous and peaceful one until Tywin left office is testament to his skills as a manager. But ultimately, his own insecurities, excesses, and overreactions will doom his House. Great character!
Yes exactly! He's a very talented PR guy and can get what he wants done done, but oftentimes what he wants is completely unhinged and largely based on his feelings despite the fact that he likes to act as if everything he does is logical and thought through (and even though anyone who actually thought it through would recognize that it will have disastrous long-term consequences at some point).
@@HillsAliveYT tywin feels like a parable of the Western chauvanists and liberal imperialists of the vietnam war era. and in retrospect a lot of those guys use liberalism to rationalize brutal, unhinged fascism and enforcing global neoliberalism through inhumane death squad driven fascism
As Tyrion says "I'm you writ small"
@@HillsAliveYT I think it is ironic that Tywin relies on such low cunning tactics which shows that his extreme lack of empathy and understanding of other people's psychology ultimately doesn't make him the great political manipulator that he believes himself to be. There is a lot of discussion of Tywin being a Machiavellian figure or following Machiavellian methods but there are others that point out that Tywin is a caricature or strawman of Machiavelli's philosophy that warned that the worst thing for a political leader is to make themselves despised.
The thing about Tywin is that he's both the image he projects AND his darker aspects. He's both brutally effective and cunning, and cruel and narcissistic. The things people laud about him, his skill as an administrator, his force of presence, and his crushing victories as a commander, all of those things are still true, and are just as much a part of his makeup as the darker and more vicious aspects. One thing you left out is his original motivation, that Tytos was utterly ineffectual as a lord and made House Lannister into a laughingstock, something Tywin became very familiar with during the war of the Ninepenny Kings, and his (Tywin's) primary goal for the remainder of his life was to undo that and make the Lannisters command respect from others. And at least while he was alive, it worked, mostly. Another thing you left out was that Tytos had repeatedly asked the Reynes and Tarbecks to repay their loans, and they just laughed it off and refused. So Tywin's solution was (initially) the "I am no longer asking" step, if they refused a request, maybe they'll answer a demand. When they don't do that, and push back in a way that further undermines the Lannisters, Tywin's conclusion is that the only way to stop others from doing that is to strike fear into them of what would happen to them if they did. Tywin's style is unquestionably brutal and even cruel, but it worked. That's a major complexity, that Tywin lives up to his reputation in all ways, both in his moral abhorrence and in his skill at what he does. Indeed he two are linked, his brutality is a very deliberate choice that furthers the goal he pushes for. He cares little for whether people like him, so long as they stay in line. I would argue his greatest fault is instead the way his personality reflects onto his children, as it's the true grand irony that his own persona is what turns his children into the laughingstock he tried so hard to escape, and that all three of them meet their greatest failures when they try to be like him, especially Tyrion. What ultimately ends Tywin and brings everything he built crashing down is his own incessant cruelty to his own children, and his complete inability to actually be a parent to them. So his cruelty to Tyrion gets him killed, and the image he projected to Cersei leads her to bring his entire legacy crashing down as her impulsiveness and narcissism leads her to completely mishandle everyone and everything she's confronted with.
If that’s the case then why didn’t Tywin try using methods that were forceful but not cruel or excessive when dealing with the Lords who refused to pay back their loans? Also fear only works to a point, it can also leave you with a lot more enemies than allies. He should’ve tried earning the respect of others instead of instilling fear. His other big mistake was letting what people said about his father and his family get to him, he should’ve learned to ignore them and not develop a superiority-inferiority complex. If he really wanted to regain respect for his family then there must have been other far less cruel ways he could’ve gone about it right? In the end he destroyed everything he touched especially his own family and the family legacy.
@@jmwilliamsartBoth of them rose in rebellion when he demanded they stand trial for their myriad of crimes, and at that point their death warrants were effectively sealed. The way he dealt with the Tarbecks was actually fairly standard for Westeros, the only unusual part of it was the sheer speed with which he was able to amass an army and build the necessary siege engines to bring down their castle. The Reynes put themselves in a situation that made them almost impossible to storm through conventional means, and tried to use that to get concessions from Tywin as part of a peace negotiation. Well, that wouldn't do, in his mind that'd make him look weak, so instead he went around the whole thing by just blocking their exits and drowning them all, which I think sends a very clear message. "You do not get to make demands of me, and those of you who try will never be safe no matter what you do." As show Jaime put it, "When disciplining unruly vassals, most lords send armies. My father, Tywin, only had to send a singer. Nothing will quell a lordling's ambition like hearing The Rains of Castamere."
I do agree though that his complex over being laughed at is one of his biggest weaknesses, his pride is very easily wounded and his sensitivity to being laughed at ultimately led to a ton of his biggest problems, including his death if you consider his hatred of Tyrion an extension of that
I saw wedding Sansa to Tyrion as a move to just out-wit the Tyrells. He wasn't thinking beyond and had to move FAST. He knew with Sansa married to Willis and Tommen's questionable parentage but married to Margaery, the Tyrells would be the most powerful HOUSE from then on. Cersei would be banished to the Rock, Jamie is nothing, so the Tyrells might have gone as far as having the Lannisters banished from court period and IF the Myrtells crown Myrcella....wow I want that game to play.
"It is safer for a prince to be feared than to be loved". Many people tend to forget however, that this chapter from Machiavelli's "The Prince" continues and says: "A prince should avoid being hated". (I'm not saying it word for word because I read it french wich is my mother tongue).
Tywin, and Cersei after him, are that kind of people who forget that second part. And Cersei is depicted as being even more irrational than him. Jaime thinks, about her that "Father was like ice, and she was like fire." (Once again paraphrasing, I don't have the book under the hand). So basically, Tywin was an unlovable asshole who was just good at PR and accounting, but sucked at HR, military strategy/tactics and political intrigued and compensated all of this by brute force.
I think the main reason the fans see him as a pragmatic badass is because of the immense charisma of Charles Dance in the role in GoT.
You hit the nail on the head with your last sentence.
Tywin was def a decent politician and military strategist too.
It should also be noted that The Prince was written as a back handed guide to the Medici family, Machiavelli actually hated monarchies and wanted a republic.
And even more the complete sentence is " Is better to be feared Than love IF YOU CAN'T BE BOTH !" But people Always seems to forget the second part
( PS : salut jeune compatriote ! )
@@yoishikakatshihe6402
And as someone else noted in the comments, Machiavelli was in favor of republics, not principalities.
Pour répondre à ton PS, bonjour, mais me faire appeler "jeune compatriote" ça fait un peu bizarre.
Déjà, je suis un homme adulte dont la vingtaine est terminée, et ensuite, je suis du Québec et j'assume, avec ta façon de me répondre, que tu viens de France?
En tout cas, sans rancune, fallait simplement que je communique ma réaction à comment tu m'as appelé. Bonne journée/soirée.
Didn’t realize how much Joffrey was like him. And they way people say that Tyrion is his son… makes me think he’s going to act very badly and stupidly when he comes back to Westeros….
LMFAO facts, I definitely expect Tyrion to tap into his least appealing self when he comes back to Westeros, I don't think he'll a misguided but optimistic wannabe hero who is fighting alongside Dany to make a better world.
Hahahahha ha - only in the show :)
Tyrion's just out for revenge in the books... And Tysha
@@HillsAliveYT Absolutely not. Tyrion's pissed and there is a certain Dragon Queen he needs to manipulate to get what he wants.
But Tywin isn't a coward like Joff
@Frozen ay ok, but specifically what qualities do Tywin and Joffrey not share? The only difference I can see is that Tywin can at least see the consequences of his actions, and reins in his behaviour to be less overtly evil. He doesn't have the shield of being able to do anything thanks to being King. If he did, and had a little less foresight, he would be exactly like Joffrey. (Personally I think it's the amazing portrayal by both actors that make people think otherwise, if you boil them down to their base actions they're incredibly similar.)
Everyone rushes to aid Ned Stark's kids and die for them. And everyone can't stand Tywin's children, they are hated and feared, the Lannisters are running on borrowed time while the Starks are going to outlive them, even though they scattered and broken.
It’s interesting how your analysis made me consider how Tywin would behave if he had dragons (not that he could ever really). How long would he have lasted before burning entire keeps and cities to the ground?
Which is why the idea that Tyrion is making his way to Daenerys in the books is so worrisome. He will impart the worst philosophy on war strategy, trademarked by Tywin, to a woman with actual dragons.
And here’s where I think your analysis is so clever, especially when taken to an extreme end. Tywin won’t have only failed to create a lasting legacy, the teachings he bestowed on the child most like him will actively result in the bonfire that burns his legacy away.
Oh my god he would have been like 9 years old burning people alive for sure. And I completely agree that he's going to make Dany's plans for Westeros far worse, LOL although GoT completely whitewashed Tyrion as a character, the fact that Tyrion was team Dany at all is one of the bigger reasons I was easily convinced that Dany was ultimately going to be a villain as well.
@@HillsAliveYT you mean, like Little Lord Robin and his moon door?
I've typed the same short essay alot now so I'll throw in some tiny tedious variations. Tywin is not reflexively brutal to this degree. The Reynes headed up a strong alliance and were actively undermining Lannister rule. Their actions in kidnapping Lannisters out of Lannisport were literally treason. The Tyrells took up arms against his family. The Freys betrayed him despite marriage ties. The Rains of Castamere incident takes place but does Tywin do anything to their known supporters who almost certainly would've taken up with them if the conflict had dragged on? No. It's back to businesses as usual for everyone else except now the Westerlands are united under House Lannister's newly consolidated power. He marries the Tyrells to his family and offers The Freys a sweetheart deal to return to the fold and bring an entire front of the war to a close. So I think that's evidence enough that he's more than capable of being pragmatic rather than rabidly vengeful.
@@HillsAliveYT maybe the Hightower’s feared men like Tywin getting dragon power and me like Damon who had it so they sought to destroy it not out of hatred of the targs but fear of what those who could exploit it would do
I think Tywin would be just as bad Dany if not worse!
The whole Tysha situation created by him seemed stupid to me. Still, I love how Charles Dance played Tywin and his techniques of commanding respect. A really good villain tho.
Tywin reminds me a lot of Logan from Succession. They're both considered highly intelligent and cunning, whereas they're actually incredibly narcissistic and always choose the path of aggression which only works because of their already high positions of power and because they're ready to be ruthless, not because they're uniquely gifted or extraordinary. You really don't have to be very smart to be intimidating.
I kinda hate how fandom portrays Tywin as a ruthless machiavellian with cold rationality whereas he's totally a cruel, narcissistic and absolutely malicious piece of sh!t (no pun intended). I think it's because Charles Dance's incredible acting and some changes in the show. I admit, Tywin in the show kinda looked like a cold machiavellian. But in the books, he's a vindictive, brutal jerk who was seeing slights everywhere (clearly, Cersei inherited her father's worst qualities)
I have to agree. Show Tywin's badassery largely comes from just how God Damn GOOD Charles Dance was but in reality, it's like Grand Moff Tarkin.
Both Tywin and Tarkin had actors that absolutely sold them as power houses.
In truth, both figures are utterly petty asshats that, if they never had the political/military influence they inherited, would be dead in the water.
@@randomcenturion7264 I admire Charles Dance, which is why I couldn't hate Tywin in the show. Same with Cersei, I love Cersei in the show due to Lena Headey's incredible portrayal
He planned Red Wedding. He killed Elia, her children, the Tarbecks and Reynes of Castamere but the worst thing he did (for me) was how he treated Tysha and Tyrion who always looked up to him.
He wouldn’t have died in shit if he didn’t treat his son like shit.
@@nont18411 Totally agreed!
d&d really missed a great opportunity for a complex character just so they can deliver yet another "cunning and smart" yt man that the world so desperately needed
LOL yes, and then largely play it off as if all of Tywin's children just coincidentally crashed and burned in life.
It's because of Dave Benioff/Freedman's own Daddy issues and how Tywin reminds him of his own father. The dragon demands did a good video on it.
After HOT D episode 1, I started thinking about Tyrion's birth. Maybe Tywin had to make the same decision about Joanna. He did say "you who killed your mother to come into the world", Tywin couldn't live with the decision of choosing his unborn child before his wife so he projected his guilt onto Tyrion. Cersei also said that her mother bled to death because Tyrion "ripped her open". Maybe Joanna told him to save Tyrion knowing she wouldn't survive, it could be another "promise me" situation and that's why Tywin never got rid of Tyrion but still blames him
Everything said about Tyrion’s birth suggest Joanna was more like Lyanna than Aemma
The fucked thing about it, is situations like that, the mother is gonna die either way. The Maesters are basically asking how they want their wives to die.
I had never though of the irony of Twyin’s alliance with the Freys, or the obvious precedent for him usurping a ruler’s authority. Great points.
Technically Frey's should've worked with Tywin because of Genna
Tywin needed for the blame even if the starks keep on fighting they would've lost
I think this is yet another character where George lays a trap that most people walk into. I actually see him as a pathetic man who others use for their own reasons, and then attach the credit/blame for their actions to Tywin.
Castamere was a total catastrophe for exactly the reasons that you laid out, especially when you contrast it to way that Kevan deals with the other rebellious house. It struck me that later in the series when Jamie is bringing the Riverlands back under control he acts much more Kevan would have. He uses implied threats, but ultimately finds peaceful solutions by finding out what the parties want and giving them just enough so that they can swallow their pride. What Castamere did was to give Tywin the reputation for ruthlessness that others would use.
Tywin is the one generally considered responsible for the sinking of the Windproud, which in it's own way was as ugly as Castamere. There were rumors that Aerys was going to replace him as Hand with Steffon Baratheon when the latter returned. I suspect the real reason for the sinking was to prevent the Baratheons from returning after a possibly successful hunt for a Valyrian bride for Rhaegar. I think it was actually Pycelle's doing, but that Tywin took the credit to advance his reputation.
Likewise with the Sack of KL. Reading the passage where Tywin is talking with Tyrion about the sack, Tywin sees what a disaster that was, and that he did not even want to take his army into KL. But again, it adds to his reputation to take the credit.
Same thing with the Red Wedding. I think that was Roose's plot with Walder as a willing tool. And again, they had someone willing to take the credit.
As far as a reputation for being a great commander, this is more PR than reality. In fact, he gets his ass handed to him by Edmure Tully, who had never commanded an army in the field.
And I think he is actually a coward. Something that I noticed after several rereads is how much the Starks hate the Lannisters even before the events of GOT, with no obvious reason. I believe that Rickard and Lyarra had a child before Brandon, one old enough that they were being fostered with the Reynes, or at least was with them for some reason. In the passage with Tywin and Tyrion, Tywin says that he had no choice but to take him army into the city because Ned's vanguard was fast approaching and he feared what would happen. I think this is the reason he never took part in the Rebellion or in putting down the Greyjoy Rebellion despite the fact that as Warden of the West it was his responsibility to do so. Basically he knows what will happen if a Stark army ever catches him in the open.
On the subject of Robert's Rebellion, Tywin was under no obligation to intercede during it. There have been, at least, two Rebellions where one of the wardens sat out the war. House Tyrell in the Dance of the Dragons and House Stark in the first Blackfyre Rebllion, not tiny conflicts when one considers the ramifications. He was simply doing what they did.
Wow! I never looked at it from this angle but u are absolutely right!.
I think in GoT it’s reasonable to think that the Sack of KL is the reason Ned and the Starks as a whole hate the Lannisters. His father ordering the death of Elia and the kids, and Jaime ‘dishonorably’ backstabbing Aerys is more than enough cause to consider their Lannisters to be very dishonorable
@@kahare9565 The hatred predates the sack. Here is the line where Tywin is talking to Tyrion.
Ned Stark's van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us.
There are actually clues in the Crannogman's tale as well, but they require abandoning a certain theory to see them.
I agree with you here, right up until you said there might've been another Stark that was in Castamere, that's crazy the Stark's wouldn't have sent any heir to foster in the south, Ned was only a second son. And if there was another Stark in the Castamere then it would've been immediate war been House Stark and Lannister they would've killed the heir to the North and Winterfell, Rickard would've blood for his son.
The greatest mistake of Tywin was to not plan for his death. Skills in administration and intimidation can get you going for some time, but making himself the only pillar of his house has guarantee it would fall with him.
Tyrion once said something that describes his father perfectly, he said: "Seven Kingdoms united in fear of Tywin Lannister"
Westeros doesn't respect Tywin, Westeros doesn't like him, Westeros *fears* him. Fear is Tywin's main weapon, not his armies, not his gold, not his queen-daughter, fear. Remember how when one smaller house wanted to rebel against the Lannisters and how did the Old Lion deal with it? Sent a bard to play Rains of Castamere to the rebel lord and that was enough.
This is exactly why I believed Tywin was never that smart. His lack of foresight is destroying the house. It won’t survive this war. Castamere was a disaster, what went down during the sack of kings landing was a disaster because he has Dorne and the ppl of kings landing hating him for it, the red wedding for obvious reasons, the way he treated his children. Tywin died but the damage has been done.
The way ppl characterize Tywin as some kind of genius military and political strategist is always kind of baffling, esp when considering how the books basically spell out why his scorched earth policies are bullshit.
It’s honestly exemplified by Cersei repeating his philosophy to Sansa during Stannis’ attack, only for Sansa to directly rebuke it.
“When I am queen, I will make them love me.”
I sometimes think things would have been so much better had Tytos quietly removed Tywin as his heir. Sent him to the wall, or something. I don’t know how able an administrator Tytos was, but not fully reining Tywin in before the man slaughtered two families, servants and all, was his biggest failing, in my eyes.
Completely agreed, it's actually ironic that Tywin criticized his dad for being too weak when his weakness is undoubtedly what allowed Tywin to turn into what he became.
@@HillsAliveYT I always wonder if Tytos actually WAS weak, or if he was just a flawed, but ultimately decent high lord.
I was thinking about this when I listened to a podcast on Robin Hood and how the legends may have stemmed from local unofficial “toll men” in the Middle Ages who held up travellers as part of a joking way to get money for road maintenance.
Like, Kevan claims that Tywin brought order to the Westerlands, but how much of it actually is order vs fear? How much of his father’s weaknesses were actually kindness?
Ppl seem to love citing “the trains ran on time” to joke about a certain mid-20th century regime. But not only did they not run on time, that would still not be worth the cost to human lives and suffering. I think Tywin’s order probably isn’t very orderly, and the human cost is too high.
@@misskate3815 Actually I think this is a very interesting angle I hadn't entirely considered. When I was actually writing the script for this I kept on thinking how "history is written by the victor," and it's actually possible if not probable that Tytos' weakness has largely been defined and accepted as a result of Tywin's beliefs about him. And when considering what Tywin sees as "weak," it seems likely that Tytos' weakness is at least partially overblown.
Tywin as won every battle he has been apart how the hell is he not a military genius? I mean 2 wars he won secured his family on the iron throne how many people can say that?
@@johnnygodxxx9005 lol, k, bro.
You never hear the Starks bragging about extinguishing house Greystark (their own blood) and putting their entrails in trees. For me what the Lannisters did with "The Rains of Castamere" was showing that they were more bark that bite.
Very good video.
Thank you! And I'll have to check out that breakdown.
@@HillsAliveYT it's good
Besides the fact that he effectively made a tragic, heroic martyr out of Robb, he killed at least one beloved member of almost every northern house at the red wedding. This all but assured the Lannisters would be hated and resisted by the North forever. I've also seen someone point out that giving Winterfell to the Boltons was a terrible decision. They were easily the most reviled and mistrusted house in the north. Even without Jon and Sansa's intervention, it's unlikely they would have been able to hold it for all that long without a coup anyways.
He then made an eternal enemy of Dorne by sending his two most vicious, brutal men after Elia and her children and then refusing to punish them for their unnecessary cruelty to the children and the assault + murder of Elia. If I recall correctly, Elia's attack and murder was not needed and not what he ordered them to do. Even if he never explicitly said to brutalize them the way they did, what else did he expect when sending the Mountain?
He was cruel to the smallfolk in times of war regularly, especially with the utterly horrific sack of king's landing (funny how the same Tywin fans who adore him still hate show Daenerys for the same thing). This earned him no love from the people he was trying to rule.
Overall, his actions made him countless powerful enemies and left him with no true love from either the nobility or smallfolk. He dies before this comes back around, but his house will be paying for it for a longggg time.
Great analysis of Tywin!He's such a despicable character that it's such a karmic justice that he got murdered by the son he abused his entire life.For me one of the erliest signs of D&D not udnerstanding the material(as well as their idolization of Tywin)is removing the Tysha reveal.It's such an important moment for both Tyrion AND Tywin. It reveals how deranged he actually is and how he believed he was superior to a commong irl like Tysha and that Tyrion wouldn't actually kill him over her.
SO IMPORTANT, and I'm baffled that they included the story earlier on only to not actually include the payoff down the line. I mean Tywin is a fascinating character, but he had a completely innocent person gang raped and essentially raped his own son by proxy to teach him a lesson, it's utterly horrific.
@@HillsAliveYT Even amoral mercenary Bronn agreed, just like Charles Dance.
I don't think there is a gender bias in the fandom, Olenna Tyrell is widely considered to be Tywin's equal in intelligence and cunning. The reason Cersei is regarded so much lower is simply because Cersei thinks herself to be Tywin's equal but is actually really stupid and short-sighted and gets played by everyone around her. That has nothing to do with her gender, or as Tywin says in the show: "I don't distrust you because you're a woman, I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are." And I think Tywin is 100% right there.
I mean, there is a gender bias in the entire world at large, so if the ASOIAF fandom were exempt to that it'd be kind of weird. But that's also the thing, I actually don't think Cersei is far dumber than Tywin, nor do I think her moves are something he wouldn't do himself, which is why the difference in their perceptions sticks out to me.
@@HillsAliveYT Gender bias exists in the world, that doesn't mean everything we see has to be somehow the result of it. In the case of Tywin vs. Cersei, Tywin would never have made most decisions Cersei made, that has nothing to do with gender, that's just how the characters are. He wouldn't have trusted Taena and Aurane or have them play him like a fiddle. He wouldn't have tried to directly destroy his foremost allies, the Tyrells. He wouldn't have tried to sabotage the marriage between Tommen and Margaery, he arranged that marriage. He wouldn't have filled the small council with useless people who just kissed his ass and did nothing otherwise. He wouldn't have openly and arrogantly antagonized the Iron Bank. He might have tried to use the Sparrows, but would never allow them to openly re-arm themselves and or arrest members of the royal family.
Virtually everything Cersei does in book 4 is in service of fighting the Tyrells, which is a very foolish goal in the first place mostly born out of Cersei's emotional dislike of Margaery, Tywin wouldn't have pursued that goal to begin with. For that reason alone Tywin wouldn't have done any of the things Cersei did.
@@frankvandorp2059 Well we can agree to disagree, but I think there is an obvious gender bias, I mean I think there is a very clear parallel between the way Cersei acts with the Tyrells and the way Tywin acts with the Reynes and Tarbecks, they both sense that these houses want to be top dogs and are willing to drag themselves down in order to take their enemies down with them. Cersei acts out emotionally because she dislikes Margaery, Tywin acts out emotionally because he can't stand being disrespected.
There are obvious connective threads between their choices and behavior, so the fact that so many people characterize Cersei as stupid and Tywin as smart for doing very similar things is hard to explain without taking sexism into account. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I think a very fair argument can be made that Tywin and Cersei are extremely strategically similar. You don't have to agree with me, but that's how I see things, and ultimately the intense hyper-focus on a literal 40-second commentary about gender bias in a 20-minute video is a little weird to me, like yes I think that's a factor but that is obviously not what the video is even about.
@@HillsAliveYT But those things aren't comparable at all. The Lannisters needed the Tyrells when Cersei undermined them to strengthen their own position as top dogs in the realm. But when Tywin fought the Reynes and Tarbecks the Lannisters didn't need them in any way, in fact, their power was openly undermined by them due to the way the Reynes and Tarbecks openly defied them while being bannermen.
And that's why there weren't any negative consequences at all for house Lannister when Tywin destroyed the Reynes and Tarbecks, while Cersei's attacks on House Tyrell has cost her her own power, and likely will cause house Lannister to lose control of the throne in the near future.
This difference in results, which were easily predictable in both cases, is why Cersei's attack on the Tyrells was foolish and stupid and Tywin's destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks was not.
Tywin executed a plan based on a mostly accurate assessment of the strengths and weaknesses and motivations of the various factions involved in the Lannister/Reyne struggle, and had a, clear objective in mind: to make House Lannister the unquestionable power in the Westerlands.
Cersei, on the other hand, completely misjudged all factions and players who were involved in Kings Landing when she decided to undermine Margaery, both of her allies and enemies. And to top it off, she didn't have any clear, thought out goal in mind, other than "Margaery no longer queen", no plan what to do next in the event that she succeeded.
@@frankvandorp2059 Well, everyone has different interpretations, and ours obviously differs and that's fine.
“Barely older than Hannah Montana” 😂
To be fair, he was a good tactician (both politically and militarily), just not a very good strategist - and here I would argue it's more about his shortcomings as a person to his children, not exactly the way he treated the other houses. We need to remember that it is medieval times, not 2020 where people expect to have rights. Lords and kings were expected to treat their subjects / enemies much like dictators do today. While today, it's clearly a detriment to your cause to be a dictator, in the past it was different (think Vlad Tepes Dracula - he was over the top, even for the times).
I think what he built crumbled because he failed to see who was best suited for what in his family (Tyrion was always his son, not Jamie - Tywing writ small -, Jamie was his golden boy, however he put too much of his expectations on him and denied the Lannisters the possibility they could work together as he and his brother, Kevan did for so long, and Cercei - oh boy ... that is a lot to unpack, and to be honest, aside lacking some of the genius Tywin / Tyrion have - she might have had it were she schooled accordingly and offered the same opportunities -, she is acting exactly like Tywin, however she is a woman in a society that doesn't see women as equal to men - it's not fair, and I know full well women can be worst than men sometimes, but the Westerosi never took Cercei serious, even if she would have been as smart as Tywin, and she was never offered the same opportunities as other men).
PS: he should have fathered more children to better his chances at having a decent heir.
I've always wondered why Tywin is considered some kind of military wizard when he repeatedly gets his ass handed to him by Robb Stark. I've always felt that, although Robb made several unforced errors, his biggest mistake was not being able to field the huge army that the westerlands and the Tyrells can.
Probably his banner men sent the bare minimum
@@poenpotzu2865 also Tywin is far wealthier then Robb and had more swords so he lost in spite of having superior number and capital
In the Book, Ned's plan was to if it came to fight Tywin in a war, which suggests Ned thought he could out general Tywin and to be honest I could see that. Robb was able to cause Tywin major headaches, Robb likely got such talent from Ned and so if the too worked together I could see the Lannister's losing even harder.
Thanks for the video! I think the points that Tywin completely failed to capitalize on his time as Aerys’ Hand of the King undermines his image as a brilliant political strategist. If he had acted more like Littlefinger and rained in his arrogance he could of continued to run the country, get his daughter to be Queen, and retained Jamie as the Westerlands heir apparent
It makes me think of the line when you play the game of thrones you either win or you die. And Tywin died. I’ve never thought this deeply into his character before but on a more surface level it’s interesting how when he dies his decaying body smells so bad. He was literally full of shit. It’s like George is trying to tell everyone what you’ve pointed out in your video just in a more crass way!
It’s really something that he accuses Tyrion of “low cunning” (projecting what he considers a low quality to his considered low son) when in fact Tyrion more closely resembles the strategist Tywin likes to believe himself to be. Even Tyrion’s style of intelligence and getting what he wants is usually a form of effective weaponized empathy. He comes to understand what people want and why it works for him. He’s the antithesis to everything that makes Tywin and most like Tywin truly wants to be.
People think him wise because the consequences of his actions isn't as apparent or as fast. We see Ned's flaws being reacted to by the end of the first book and season. But his crushing of the Reynes and Tarbacks didn't really show too much backlash. There's that time when Aerys gets kidnapped and Tywin plays the The Rains of Castamere to threaten them only to be laughed at because they don't live in easily floodable mines so an actual badass (Barristan Selmy) had to save them but that's a bit too subtle, and as for the consequence of the Red Wedding that's more of something the Boltons since they have to gain the loyalty of people that have no respect nor fear of them.
I guess the biggest consequence was his death at the hands of Tyrion since he too was a victim of Tywin's random cruelty, but even then people interpret that as "only person that can kill a smart guy is another smart guy"
The fact that Tywin isn't the first or last person with such a philosophy or methods that the internet idolizes does give a pattern
I can't believe I live in a world where Tywin is considered a tactical genius and Sansa is the most hated character who apparently didn't deserve to be Queen
That is because Sansa is a cowardly selfish asshole who would plot to let her brother who is fighting for her even though she doesn't deserve it and her other innocent little brother die so she could have some power. not because she cares about the North or its people but because she is scared of being powerless again and not in control. From that moment I prayed she would die horribly like the pathetic coward she is. anyone who makes decisions based purely on their selfishness, fear and their delusion that what is best for them is what is best for the lands they rule and its people are pathetic idiots and should be hated. that is who Sansa was,the girl hiding in the basement while jon & Dany fight for her life and lands, then has the nerve to speak badly about them during that exact moment while battle is going on. Why on earth does anyone not realize she is a whiny spoiled brat who has never accomplished anything and until she was raped had never experienced true suffering not like jon,Arya or Dany. Yet she acts like she has endured more suffering than anyone else. I wished that they had made Dany burn her alive. What did u people watch that made u even once think Sansa deserved to be quién.
To be fair the TV show ruined their depictions with the writing.
Show Sansa doesn't deserve to be queen, but that has nothing to do with Tywin.
An astute observation, we can see very clearly how the Tywin leaves grudges all over Westeros with the Martell's as well. But if we're going to call Tywin an idiot then I don't know what hopes the rest of the people of Westeros have. I haven't finished the books yet but from what I've seen most times a character dies you can see how it's their own fault in someway or another.
He had solid ruthless pragmatism for the short term, but honestly, the biggest reason he was as effective as he was is because he had everyone else scared out of their minds over what he might do if they crossed him. That's great for the here and now, but not a very sustainable long-term strategy for success. The biggest problem is that you can only intimidate and repress people so much and for so long before you make too many enemies who will eventually look for ways to gang up on you or betray you from within. I think Tywin absolutely had the makings of a true political genius, and I think you sometimes see flashes of this, but that potential was largely squandered by his out-of-control ego, his complete lack of tact, his pitiless brutality, and his inability to make committed longterm friends and allies. Last but certainly not least, there's his terrible parenting as well. I think it's fair to claim he was intelligent. He's no idiot. His problem is that he was completely lacking in wisdom and humility. The fact that his own actions lead to his patricide by Tyrion and the reasons for why it happened shows that Tywin had no consideration for the longterm consequences of his actions. He's basically the embodiment of the biblical proverb, "Pride comes before destruction, and an arrogant spirit before a fall." A truly great leader wouldn't have directly caused the downfall of his own family or built such a shaky foundation for his family's legacy and reputation. Plenty of brilliant people have been undone by arrogance and unbridled ego. Pride comes before a fall because pride impairs your better judgment, and true wisdom comes only through humility.
Sending hostages is a time honoured tradition of making sure that debts are paid and rules of peace are observed.
Instead of starting a war you can just execute a hostage. And to be fair it was usually a pretty good deal too!
You learned people from other noble houses, made friends, and if your father kept the peace you would return home after a decade or so with tons of stories and genuinely increased chance of peace since you know those guys.
I wonder if the Reynes and Tarbecks really were the menace the songs present them to be. If it's true the gold mines have run out, I wonder if Tytos was essentially bribing them to keep that a secret, which is what made them to rich and so confident, and why he was so nice to them. It would explain why Tywin was so ready to flood them.
In the books the gold mines are still full of gold so this theory could only apply to the show
@Miguel Sánchez del Villar as far as we know. It seems like a strange thing to include from the showrunners, who preferred less complexity, not more. I suspect it might be a GRRM nugget that he gave then.
@@Sinewmire we are talking about D&D, they werent the brightest duo, with how bad is the situation for House Lannister in the books i doubt that they wouldnt say in private something like "and on top of all the mines of Casterly Rock are empty", Tyrion would say something about that since his House is his enemy and he is working for Daenerys and company, if the mines were empty in the books there would be clues about that
@@MiguelSanchezDelVillar hmm, good point
To be fair, the reason people "like" villains is that from the moment we meet them, we know they're evil. They start on rock bottom from an audience perspective, and from there, the only place to go is up. We actually don't like villains, it's just everything they do right raises them from the lowest perspective. Also, the audience loves learning what NOT to do in life, and villains teach us that with every decision they make.
In the end , Lord Tywin Lannister did not shit gold.
Excellent analysis as usual!
When I was watching your video, I thought that Tywin kind of reminded me of Maegor the Cruel as they were both incredibly brutal in addition to resorting to violent and fear tactics to solve problems almost immediately. Hell, they were in somewhat similar situations; both faced rebellions from multiple lords. The main difference is Tywin doesn't strike me as someone who is particularly sadistic and in my opinion, Tywin is smarter than Maegor.
Anyway, congrats on you reaching over a thousand suscribers. I hope your channel continues to grow because your videos are extremely insightful and you are very articulate in your analysis. I hope you have a great day! :)
Thank you! And I think that's a pretty apt assessment and comparison.
There's some truth to what you say, but I'm not sure I completely agree with you on the topic of Tywin overreaching with his father about the Frey betrothal, or his handling of the dents. He was the heir and his word should carry some weight. He wasn't wrong on those fronts. Emmon Frey brought no real advantages to House Lannister...something that time has proven he was right about...and letting debts go unpaid is a good way to look like too much of a soft touch.
He could've handled them a lot better than he did, but he wasn't wrong for his dissent.
Yeah I pretty much agree with you, I don't think Tywin was actually incorrect in his assessment, it's just that he was a child publicly speaking out against his father's decision, and I feel like that is a great example from very early on that Tywin sort of sees himself as excused from social rules.
@@HillsAliveYT child?
@@sonofthebearking3335
He was a kid when his sister was betrothed/ married
Ultimately, Tywin tried to act as a dragonlord when he had neither dragons nor the vast riches and power House Lannister once had. Their gold had run dry, they had to borrow just to keep the appearances up that they were still a wealthy, mighty house. This ploy could only work as long as he lived, it was only his reputation as a ruthless, brutal lord which kept the Lannisters at the top. Once he was gone, the jig was up.
Kevan Lannister would've been a great ruler, I think.
*Tywin:* Unleash Ser Gregor and send him before us with his reavers. Send forth Vargo Hoat and his freeriders as well, and Ser Amory Lorch. Each is to have three hundred horse. Tell them I want to see the riverlands afire from the Gods Eye to the Red Fork.
*Kevan:* They will burn, my lord. I shall give the commands.
I could never compliment you enough on the excellence of the analyses you've uploaded in such a short time over the past couple of weeks! Your mind!!! Keeping going off!!!
Thank you so much!
I think the problem with the evaluation of Tywin or Tyrion or many of these characters is we are judging them with our own perspectives and ignoring the intentionality and characterization they are meant to have. Tywin is seen as a “good administrator” or “ good politician” in the context of the story because GRRM says he is. That doesn’t mean he couldn’t have done things differently. But saying he’s unintelligent I think is unfair to the character. It’s his own intelligence that’s part of his flaws as a character. He has a “lion’s pride.” The blinders are part of the characterization. It’s pride. Red Wedding as an example, he clearly understands how it will be perceived, as his conversation with Tyrion after clearly indicates (why he is keen to make the Freys the scapegoats). Just like when Oberyn is killed defending Tyrion, he clearly understood the political implications. His views of his children are similarly part of his almost psychosis where he can’t see the forest for the trees. Like Ned’s obsession with honor as a concept was his downfall, Tywin’s obsession with legacy was his downfall. Doesn’t make him an idiot because his immediate decisions eventually turned out to be wrong later, that’s like evaluating historical events in hindsight. And the fact that ultimately Tyrion is just him “writ small” is clearly intended (though that part of the characterization is clearly lost in the later seasons of GOT) and is used as a final wound to his pride before he dies unceremoniously. The poetry of his pride and desire to not see his House ruined like his father leading to its eventual ruin when he died is all part of the characterization.
"Tywin is not a genius"
*Lites a pipe*
Continue
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Tywin is the embodiment of EVERYTHING wrong with the elitist culture of Westeros, and that's what in my eyes makes him the best villain of the entire series
I am convinced that a lot of the love for Tywin in the fan community is derived from Charles Dance’s stellar performance
I've loved binging your content! I appreciate that you take the time to consider things outside of the general fandom beliefs and reanalyze characters that we've deemed "cool" or "annoying". Your essays are so well thought out and well-spoken.
For me Tywin was a sort of fable on the Justinians, Alexander the Greats, Catherine the Greats and Bismarcks of the world. While perhaps brilliant or not he was efficient in his time, but his system of having to play constant wack-a-mole might've been alright for him, but not suitable for the position he occupied. So once he dies his Jenga tower comes tumbling down.
I think a good thing to remember about Tywin is that he might be a good politician, general and administrator, but he is a useless diplomat.
I agree with the overall analysis but I question one part:
"The Red Wedding was a Hail Mary"
Not really, it was Tywin being impatient and draconian. By this point the Westerlands, Crownlands and the Reach, as well as the Iron Islands were at war with Robb, who had executed one of his own lords and betrayed a vital ally. Unless Robb abandoned the Tullys and hid behind Moat Cailin, a conventional Lannister victory over the Starks (again, up to Moat Cailin at least) was at this point certain. The war was lost. Robb himself describes how near hopeless it is, even WITH Frey support:
“We must win back the Freys. With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope.”
Of course, this in a way again reflects poorly on Tywins long term planning, since he picked the easy and quick route that ruined the Lannisters reputation.
Yeah I'd say that's fair, perhaps I should have framed it more as Tywin not wanting to be seen as having a difficult time defeating a young boy, or that the embarrassment of even having Robb make it to the Westerlands was enough to piss him off and lead him to a bad decision that would satisfy his need for people to fear him. Honestly I couldn't say his exact motivations, but the fact that he made such a horrible call when the war was winnable for him actually makes it lowkey worse.
@@HillsAliveYT That's kinda the point, though. He made the worst call even when he didn't have to, because that's the kind of person he is. That's what it's trying to show the audience. He's the kind of person who will jump to the worst extremes.
Tywin is one of my favorite characters because he makes such a great antagonist, but that doesn't mean he isn't deeply flawed as a human being. His father's perceived weakness really left a psychological scar on him. His ego and narcissism demands he project a certain image, but it is all illusion with little substance. I think back to the Battle of the Green Fork, where Tywin literally did nothing but sit on a horse looking pretty. It was a nominal victory, but not because of anything Tywin did. His tactics failed, the army was never encircled and destroyed. And of course it kept him tied up long enough for Jaime's army to be routed and Jaime captured. That is worse than a Pyrrhic victory, and yet everybody acts like he did something amazing. It is honestly a little baffling why fewer people realize the flaws in Tywin's personality and his actions in the story.
I'm so glad youtube popped one of your videos on autoplay. Love your direct clear and pointed insights. Going to binging all your videos now.
Regarding the Reyne, per AWOIAF, they did killed his maternal grandfather, or cousin of his grandfather, Denys Marbrand (who was sent by Tytos to make them come to the Rock to talk about their lack of loyalty, the Reyne claimed they thought it was bandits) a few years prior, threatened Tytos with Kevan’s life (as Kevan was a squire of Lord Reyne) to get away with it, when beaten by Tywin’s forces, refused to surrender unless they would gain hostages, and openly refused to pay their massive debts, and let’s not forget what happened with Joanna’s brother who was kidnapped.
Like, Tywin is ruthless, but I understand his loathing of them,and as a young man, he was far less of a asshole too.
Yeah, although Denys' status seems to have been fudged with, you're not wrong that Tywin had reason to hate them. But that also paints his behavior in a more interesting and violent and a less skilled light, because he both knew that pushing them to react in the way he wanted to would take very little effort, but their prior terrible behavior also meant he could have come up with a solution to punish and disempower them that didn't make him look as aggressive but would also make him look like he was entirely in the right.
@@HillsAliveYT true.
But we also have to remember, Tywin just finished the war of the stepstones, which is also how he was able to assemble so many forces.
He was sick of his father’s weakness and the lack of respect of the Reyne.
Young Tywin was a skilled leader of men, and the forces he used in the campaign against the Reyne were forces who fought alongside him, veterans of a brutal campaign where all of Westeros was united, and he was friend with Steffon Baratheon and Aerys Targaryen, meanwhile his father was a weak man, who insulted his mother’s memory by allowing some harlot to wear her jewelry and dresses, a man who had to call in back-up from the Targaryen 3 times to deal with the problems caused by his weaknesses, this problem being bandits, and who’s only good action for his family was placing Tywin as cupbearer and ward of Aegon V, something which was possible because the Lannister and Targaryen were friends, with Gerold Lannister, Tytos’ father, having been the greatest support of Aegon becoming king, one of Tytos’ older brother having been Egg’s squire, and the other knighted by him just before his death.
He, however, wasn’t a political genius.
Young Tywin was a stern and ruthless but trustworthy man, and a able administrator, also one who clearly was able to be likable if he had as best friends Steffon and Aerys.
But due to his best friend’s betrayal of trust, the loss of his wife and his family’s name being the only thing he still had as positive, he became obsessed with not being mocked.
The Targaryen and the Lannister had been allies for three generations, and Aerys spat on that, without his friends, without his wife, and being in a job he didn’t wanted to be (before Tyrion’s birth, Tywin wanted to quit due to a salacious remark about Joanna) what was a admirable if dangerous part of him, his love for his family’s honor, made of Tywin the vile piece of shit he became later on, and then Aerys made it worse by mocking Tywin for Tyrion’s birth.
Like, I wonder if Tywin would have been as bad if his best friend hadn’t actively betrayed his trust.
Also, regarding Tywin taking proeminence on the ruling, why shouldn’t he ? Aerys hated dealing with the “boring” administrative stuff.
Aerys and Tywin in the early years were like Robert and Eddard when the later became Hand, furthermore, Aerys came up with ideas but never cared on how to achieve that.
Aerys was jealous because he didn’t realized he could be seen as better if he tried, which is why he forced Tywin to stay when Tywin wanted to quit after the salacious remark on Joanna.
I would love to see you talk of this relationship between Targaryen and Lannister, which I believe started in part thanks to lady Rohanne Webber, wife of Gerold.
Seriously, Gerold supported Aegon V, bribing lords and using his best arguments to convince them that the “half peasant” prince should take the crown, one of his twin sons was squire of Aegon, Tytos had Aegon’s back up many times and was able to make of his son Aegon’s ward, and his niece Joanna became Rhaella’s handmaiden.
The fact than Aegon’s reign had created a power block of Baratheon, Lannister and Targaryen alongside good relationships with the Martell (as the ruling princess was Rhaella and Joanna’s friend) show that despite the shits done by all of his children’s fuck-up (except Rhaelle) show how he did the most good to the Dynasty since Jaehaerys the overrated prick.
@@HillsAliveYT what do you think ?
@@HillsAliveYT would you be interested in doing a video about this interesting lannister targaryen relationship
@@fandemusique4693 Yeah definitely!
It’s very telling that Tywin lost most of his battles against Robb and that his children hate his guts.
You know what I love the most in your videos? they start exactly at the first second, something hard to find in other videos today in youtube
"getting outmatched and out foxxed by a niave and inexperienced boy that was barely older than Hanah Montana" seriously I love how you write your essays
Tyrion probably didn’t mean that way when he said “i’am you write small” he was right. Because he’s everything he accused Tyrion to be.
So refreshing to see someone see Tywin for what he is! A very weak and fearful man.
Thumbnail: "Tywin Lannister is the Dwight Schrute of Westeros."
Me: *settles in for this read* 😄
Lol. it is so hilarious.
Wow, I'm just in awe of your critical analysis skills. I don't think people are ready for this😂 Now, I didn't analyze Tywin like that when watching the series, but I did find it fascinating that Robb was outwitting him in the war. It made me look at Robb favorably, and I never really focused on Tywin as a complete character until afterwards. But I KNOW people loved him. I didn't hate him, though. I just never got fully immersed. His interactions with Arya in the show were nice. It was fun when he intimidated Joffrey sometimes lol. But even then, as I think about it, Joffrey wanting to make sure Dany wasn't a threat while Tywin brushed it off (and then started being hostile towards him) does seem to point to the arrogance you are talking about...🤔 I need to re-watch to see all his bad decisions.
Thank you! And I don't hate him either, I actually find him to be a fascinating character with a lot of interesting layers, it's just interesting to me that so many people view him as the ultimate brilliant badass when he's really an over-sensitive crybaby.
I just finished watching a few of your videos and I'm already hooked. I love hearing your analysis of these things. You've definitely got a new subscriber in me!
Tywin is the ruler that read The Prince and didn’t realize it was satire.
I've see a lot of such got analysis but this is really original!
Its amazing how much the show changes our perception. In the books we almost exclusively see Tywin from Tyrions point of view and his flaws are truly visible from there but seeing him from the Arya, Cersei, Jeoffry and Jaimes perspective they are just not equipped nor in a postion to understand his machinations and motivations they are all very selfish characters who also dont see others as human in the same way they see themselves and heavily project onto him what fits their world view.
Really enjoying your content
His actions of killing Elia Martell and her children was a big mistake as well and that's one of the things that has caused the Martells to hate the Lannisters and rightfully so. He has proven to be untrustworthy. His other downfall is how he treats Tyrion and what he did to Tyrions wife Tysha was so unforgivable.
When he died shitting himself in the books, I laughed. I was disappointed that they didn't do that in the show because he was so obsessed with his reputation and died humiliated and a hypocrite. The funeral was so stinky that the guests were getting sick and fainting for being too near.
I think people liked Tywin because he was played by Charles Dance but forgot the character he played was evil.
Love your channel :)
I think one of the major themes of the series so far is that brutality is effective for a while. But it's also a road that is difficult to get off of. Ruthless violence is a tempting solution, but after using it once it becomes harder and harder and harder to solve problems any other way.
Yeah this is all valid because Rob was definitely humbling the great Tywin throughout those first 3 books.
One thing worth noting is, in the books, the Rains of Castamere incident happened just after Tywin had returned from fighting in the war of ninepenny kings (this was where he was knighted I think). Interestingly Tywin's Uncle, who lead the Westermen army, died in the fighting and was replaced for the remainder of the war by Lord Roger Reyne, who Tywin would kill about a year later.
tywin's kids all got a little something from him . cerci got his petty and spitefulness. jamie got his arrogance ,cockyness and recklessness and tyrion got his lustfullness
You have a sub. Excellent analysis.
This is an interesting, and persuasive take on Tywin that I didn't think of beforehand.
Very Putin-esque. I do think that he must have learned something over the years, as Cersei and Joffrey basically apply his tactics with a lowee success rate.
You're not a master tactician if your son kills you on the toilet.
Tbh he underestimated Tyrion
“Tywin Is the Dwight Schrute of Westeros? False, The Faceless Man is the Dwight Schrute of Westeros; he has a wig (face) of every person in the office, you never know when you’ll need to bear a passing resemblance to someone.” - que montage of Dwight Schrute wearing wigs of Ned stark, Cersei, Jon snow, Melisandre, a white walker, a dragon…
Funny how Tywin hated Tytos for his "weakness" yet it was that very weakness in his eyes that saved Tywin from being called for treason by his own father for the wild disobedience he showed.
Tywin banks on the fact that the Lannisters have access to the most resources to browbeat everyone else into submission. He's an insecure narcissist at heart, constantly paranoid over taking everything as as personal insult. He baits people into "disrespecting" him when he pushes them too far, as a show of dominance if they don't retaliate. When they inevitably do, he couldn't be more delighted to finally flex his financial and military superiority just to reiterate how much better than everyone else he (and his house as an extension of himself) is.
I actually think this is the most extreme version of Dany's self-aggrandizing savior complex, they're on the same spectrum here. She's still concerned with being perceived as the good guy, but he's way off the deep end having already taken for granted that he is and was and will always be in the right. What they both have in common is their total reliance on aggressive punishment as a show of their power, and their either lack of experience and delicacy or outright dismissal of the value of soft power.
What you're saying about Dany is simply not true. She spends the entire dance with dragons books trying to use more gentle methods after causing such chaos in storm of swords. She stops murdering the slavers, she doesn't kill her hostages, she doesn't rescue the stupid king of Astapor, she ignores the army besieging her city, she marries a local guy to make her rule seem more legitimate and she even accepts to reopen the fighting arenas.
Tywin is literally the mad King Aerys, just successful. He does all the same things Aerys does, makes unreasonable demands, kills innocent people who disagree with him, and ignores the wishes of his children and intentionally makes them miserable in an attempt to exert control over them. But Tywin didn’t lose the war, and history is written by the winners.
And this is without even covering the atrocity of Elia’s+children’s murder. I think they could’ve exchanged Jamie’s release from the kingsguard by having Tywin take the black, like Aegon’s V had Bloodraven do before.
Ye ye boi, its time for Tea and Tywin!
I'm surprised there isn't a chapter dedicated to Tyrion who is easily the most competent agent within Tywin Lannister's orbit. Tywin cannot accept his son who is a "Dwarf," cannot reward develop or empower that son despite his obvious merits, actively tries to kill that son and ensures that the only one in the family who would be able to hold Lannister rule together after he's gone will not be around. Obviously that very same son shot Lord Tywin to death while he shat in the shitter ensuring him the legacy he deserved.
The dichotomy between Tywin and Ned really shows you how short sighted the machiavellian game of thrones is. Sure, Ned died before Tywin, but (at least in the books) his honor and righteousness continues to inspire the northern lords to fight for his children. Tywin ruled through fear and hatred, but once he croaked, all his subjects and enemies started plotting to destroy his house. Also Ned’s children are far better suited to continue his legacy than Tywin’s. Cersei is completely self destructive and delusional. Jaime is slowly but surely realizing how shitty his family is and is growing closer with Brienne. Finally Tyrion is actively plotting on the destruction of his family in revenge for the abuse he’s endured and what happened to his wife Tysha.
Tywin’s parenting was a complete failure, and his history of ruthless ambition has set up his family’s destruction.
What an insightful retrospective on an undeserving fan-favorite 😂! Taking in everything you’ve brought up, I’m only now understanding just how poetic his death was 🫢.
He could only clinch his political victories through brutal and callous violation of societal boundaries, like overstepping his legal authority or shivving someone at their own wedding. Plus, was he so narcissistic that he’d sooner curtail, humiliate, and all-together shit on his own children - his legacy - than empower them with the tools they’d need to carry on the family’s name after he’s gone.
Getting merc-ed while he’s at his most vulnerable by the very son that he neglected and maligned for decades? It’s literally a move straight out of his playbook and exactly what he deserved…
I actually like Tywin and understand his scorched earth approach with the Reigns. His father was weak and he needed to show strength to let people know that he would not be treated poorly. It's reminiscent of the main protagonist of the book "Things Fall Apart".
He and Cersei did all this because it made them feel good
I was so hype for this video! Tywin is *so* sensitive to the opinions of others while pretending he doesn’t care. Also in a totally not weird way I’ve really enjoyed your voice in these, you have a very soothing voice but also easy to listen to and understand.
I think Charles Dance absolutely killed it in the show, though!
Thanks! And honestly it takes a lot of getting used to in order to edit your own voice, so it's interesting to hear an outside perspective. Absolutely agreed that Charles was perfection, and I actually think he did a good job of portraying Tywin's arrogance and oversensitivity, but he comes across as a genuinely very intelligent person so it makes it harder to see Tywin's flaws.
I’ve done a bit of YT before so I know the pain of editing your own voice. It makes your videos very listenable. You’re right that he does come off intelligent I think there’s the scene with Tommen over Jeoffry’s body that sort of has him using the Socratic method; it’s hard to sound dumb when you’re doing that! (Even though it can also just be being a contrary shit)
@@kahare9565 OMG yes, that scene was so fucking grim but well played to me, like Joffrey just died and Tywin immediately keeps it moving and is solely focused on the power of the throne.
Whats terrifying, is looking at Tywins youth, its like he was a more competent Joffery.
And even Joffery, though arrogant to a fault and cowardly, he wasn't exactly stupid. Tywin is in a sense what the petulant kings may have one day became.
It's all so neatly symbolized with his battle attire, the gaudy lion armor and comically oversized cape draped over the horses butt, it's all right there in the book.
Winning without strength of arms is the truest form of being a master of war.
Olena Tyrell is essentially the female version of Tywin Lannister and the fans love her for it. Cersei is categorically more stupid and venal than Tywin and I don't think that perception of her represents a double standard.