The Defiance of Duskendale seems to occur shortly after Tywin was refused by Aerys II in his quest to wed Rhaegar and Cersei. According to what we have heard, Aerys did this by calling Tywin his servant, and that seems like the sort of slight Tywin would not care to stand.
@@QuinnTheGM I'd have to go back and check the primaries, but I'm pretty sure that it's around Cersei's 10th birthday when she gets the valonqar prophecy. It's still well before Rhaegar was betrothed to Elia, as well. I think it helps give a lot of justification as to why Tywin would move so decisively, as in your theory.
@VeritasKnight iirc it was during a tourney at Lannisport that Tywin was hosting to celebrate the birth of Prince Viserys; her aunt Genna told her Tywin's plan, which led her to visit Maggy the Frog. Then, well, yeah...
@@X525Crossfire Yeah, off the top of my head I'm not sure if that's when Tywin was also rejected by Aerys, but I *think* it is, as it all comes from Cersei's recollection of the prophecy and the events around it. It was Genna who told her about Aerys's rejection, too, so for that to happen I expect Aerys did it publicly. I can't see Tywin taking kindly to that.
2:50 I think Darklyn was pissed about the decline of Duskendale as a trading hub. It had been the primary port in the Blackwater Bay for merchants coming from Essos for centuries, until King's Landing was built. But since the Targaryens built their capital, most of the trade by the time of Aerys's reign had diverted to King's Landing rather than Duskendale, so Lord Darklyn was only getting a tiny fraction of the incomes that his ancestors used to get.
Prison as a plot device in the books is huge, a lot of characters get imprisoned and it changes them a lot, besides davos tbh who takes being imprisoned like a champ I swear
It makes sense though, these high lords who've had everything handed to them from birth don't handle imprisonment well and sometimes come out better (Jaime) or worse (Aerys)
Cause that’s how it is in real life poor people have all these boundaries and limits and learn early that you can f around and find out. If you’re used to having servants you probably imagine that being the help would be awful just being forced to be bored and captive for an extend time losing your personal agency or most of it would be much harder on you than somebody who’s been there and is willing to go back if it means their family surviving
Never thought about that but true. He knows what it is to be without power so he was able to just chill. Also the prisonment wastn that rough. He wasnt tortured and when prisoned he was alone so just his king far away to worry about.
Not to mention he’s probably been under the thrall of the drowned god after drowning during the battle of the blackwater. He seeks much more violent ends especially towards the red woman a zealot of the fire god. Which could be attributed to losing his sons. Or could be the residual impact of a vengeful god giving him a second chance.
it would be tragic if Barristan's coup really does go poorly (though I agree it's likely). he's got such a pathological need to constantly be following someone's orders and now for the 2nd time in his life he finally does something of his own decision and just like last time it backfires miserably
Tywin and Aerys didn't meet during the war of ninepenny kings, they literally grew up together because Tytos had Tywin sent to King's Landing as a page afte Tywins defiance for the Frey betrothal. So they would've met during Egg's reign.
@@milessullivan-b3y the video stated that they MET during the war. The didn't. They practically grew up together which was why Aerys wanted Tywin to knight him.
1:43 Correction: Tywin, Aerys and Steffon Baratheon (Robert and Stannis's dad) all met as children when Tywin was a cupbearer at King's Landing. They were childhood friends. Tywin (then a knight) then knighted Aerys during the War of the Ninepenny Kings.
I don't think Tywin and Lord Darklyn were working together. Lord Darklyn was an idiot, but even he couldn't have thought that Tywin would have tossed a royal pardon into a burning city. If Lord Darklyn had been working with Tywin, the captivity wouldn't have lasted half a year; Aerys would have died shortly into his visit and it would have been blamed on an accident or a third-party assassin. That would have been a much more pardonable situation. Lord Darklyn's only hope was Aerys agreeing to his terms quickly and giving the pardon himself, or denying there was ever a kidnapping, to save face.
Can we take a second to think about the plot armor around Aerys the second? Seriously, there were at least three separate times where the world could’ve been rid of him and yet none of them were enough. A fire destroys Summerhall and kills like 80% of house Targaryen? Don’t worry, Aerys came out of it alive. A new petty lord revelion after the last one cost king Maekar’s life? Don’t worry, Aerys will come out of it alive, if only a bit more crazy. A suspicious tourney sponsored by a relatively poor house that might or might not be used to stage a coup? Hey! would you look at that? Varys has decided he wants to ruin everyone’s fun and tell the king to go show himself. Even with the king’s guard he was lucky. Assembling a decent guard was always a problem and yet Aerys had the luck of living at the same time as folks like Arthur Dayne or Barristan Selmy and having them all with nothing better to do than protecting the king.
The part about Varys wasn't so much plot armor as just Varys wanting to make sure that Aerys stays in power bc he is destabilizing the realm. Varys didn't just decide to ruin everyone's fun; he saw the plot and thwarted it. Having Varys as an ally who legitimately wants to keep you alive until his plans come to fruition is extremely valuable.
@@j-rey- Fair enough. Now that you point Varys out, you made me wonder if he himself couldn’t be considered an statistic’s miracle. I’m sorry if this is not what you meant, but I assume you are going along the theory that says Varys is either a Blackfyre supporter or a Blacfyre himself. Those weren’t exactly common after the nine penny king’s war, so him existing is already kinda unprovable. Then he had to be good at something Aerys needed. Let’s remember he is a foreigner, so he not only needed to be good, he needed to be better than every person in both Westeros and Essos at his business for Aerys to bring him in. And then, for all this to play in Aeryses favor at the end, Varys had to go “what will bring more havoc? A coup that probably will bring a civil war or this single mad idiot? Let’s go with the mad idiot”. And yes, I know akording to this theory this was all part of Varyses and Ilyrio’s plan, but come on, not even Tywin’s or Littlefinger’s schemes work so perfectly.
@pauloapaezjorgeemilio1772 Oh for sure, Varys could never exist in real life 😆, he is way too skilled. And what I meant doesn't really matter if Varys is a Blackfyre; it seems his plan is to have Young Griff take over the realm, regardless of Young Griff's true heritage, and having a Mad King at the helm (of the realm 😆) is perfect. The civil war would have been 15 years too early, as Varys's replacement king was just a wee babe. By the time Young Griff was fighting age, Rhaegar would probably be king, and he would inspure much more loyalty. Also, I doubt it would be a civil war. I think most lords would be only board with deposing Aerys diplomatically and replacing him. Then Aerys pursued Varys specifically bc he heard of his skill as a spymaster, bc Varys was so notorious and Aerys was so paranoid, so Varys being a foreigner wasn't too big of a deal. Wh9mever was the best spymaster would be Aerys's choice. It just so happened to be Varys. He was just so good that the Westerosi king requested his services. Aerys was really lucky, but he also had privileges as King
@@jimjohnson6944 Legendary warriors from China's Three Kingdom period. Guan Yu was deified as a war god after his death for all kinds of single handed badassery. Zhao Yun among many other feats. Is famous for singlehandedly fighting his way through an enemy army twice to save his lord's infant son.
3:39 There is nothing really strange about the Lord of Duskendale capturing King Aerys II. instead of killing him. Having the king as your prisoner/hostage is an enormously dangerous but potentially lucrative gamble which you could use for a rich ransom, hugh concessions (like Duskendale being exempted from paying taxes for some decades) or - if one wants to take the Simon de Montfort route - even ruling as the regent with the king as your puppet (tho im pretty sure that wasen't the intention in the defiance of Duskendale). Killing him on the other hand would be regicide and that would've caused probally the whole of Westeros to take up arms against Duskendale, even (then King) Rheagar who didnt even like his owk father, just in order to save face. So yeah, not killing Aerys was the far more sensible thing in this situation.
If there is a Harpy I think it's the Green Grace but Hizdahr is certainly involved somehow with the Sons of the Harpy. The Shavepate may not be completely right with his suspicions but he is not completely wrong either.
@@QuinnTheGM I just don't see how that would help his plans. He seems genuinely honest about crushing the institution of slavery. Sure he has a grudge against the Great Masters of Meereen but I think he is an idealist too.
@@status_quo_postOpportunist is what I figured, like yeah he's helping but I would never trust him 100%. Just being aware he has his own agenda for himself. My money was always on the Green Grace, her cousin Grazdan, or Reznak.
@@QuinnTheGMI think the irony of the Shavepat is that he’s distrusted by everyone when he’s been completely honest and upfront with his loyalty to Dany and opposition to slavery to contrast Hizdah who’s completely lying about being antislavery despite trying to reopen the fighting pits and sleeping with a slave woman when Dany leaves Mereen
@@QuinnTheGMThe Green Grace is the Harpy imo She said that the killings would stop if Dany married a Meereenese noble, and sure enough, the very day that Dany agreed to marry Hizdhar the killings stopped.
Someone in the comments pointed out that Tywin’s biggest mistake was mistreating Tyrion, and now I see several parallels that both Tyrion and Cersei mistreat people and gain lots of enemies
Yeah, Jaime's host camps there the first night out of King's Landing in AFFC. Rosby & Stokeworth are both also closer to the city than Duskendale, along with a few other unnamed seats Visenya & Rhaenys secure the submission of at the start of the Conquest. The Dun Fort of Duskendale is rather the nearest *major* castle to KL, being that it controls the port town.
Excellent video. I’ve always believed that caused his downfall was he caused Tyrion to Hate him rather then Fear. Fear can keep people in line but when you make them Hate you, they can and will rise above that Fear. Since Tywin’s death, no one was able to back up the threats the Lannisters made.
darklyn may have exchange rash words to king and king became angry then for his safety he kept the king as his prisoner. It was not prplanned. But Tywin use that opportunity for his interests . if Tywin was preplanned in this coup he may inform Darklyn by secret that Barrysten Selmy was coming to Duskendale at night. They can captureor killed Selmy.
I wonder how if Aerys had died would Tywin and Rhaegar had gotten along even though the initial marriage pact was declined. Maybe it would’ve been changed but idk if he was married yet by this point.
Duskendale took place in 277, Rhaegar was only betrothed to Elia in 279. If Aerys had died at Duskendale then Tywin as Hand would undoubtedly have renewed his push to marry Cersei to Rhaegar.
@@anthroposmetron4475 could’ve been interesting to see if he would’ve said yes. I wonder if the prophecy for Cersei still would’ve been in effect because Rhaegar would’ve been king. Also I wonder if Cersei may let slip to rhaegar about the 3 kids and his whole “the dragon must have three heads” and if that could’ve swayed him.
@@t_hetty1758 That's a good point. We do know that Cersei was absolutely infatuated with Rhaegar, so she would have needed absolutely no convincing to marry him.
Tywin's legacy is one of immense and constant failure. Another comment said this, but Tywin's actions and attitude were short-term. Tywin's biggest flaw (besides his lust for war crimes) was this inability to think more than a few months into the future. Joanna dies and Tywin just accepts his 3 kids are enough. He was in his 30s and could have easily had another kid or at least married into a bigger alliance. He abused and/or neglected all 3 of his kids. He was especially brutal to his son and heir. He wanted Cercei marry into Royalty, but never taught her about court or how to actually govern. He just instilled his misogynistic views into her. Look at almost every single decision Tywin makes throughout the series and you see a man so consumed with grand standing and image and fear that anything beyond his own ego
9:02 is Hizdahr zo Loraq the harpy in the show and not in the books I had it backwards in my head. In my opinion he is the Harpy in the books and not in the show. Is there a detail that I missed?
I'll never understand why people (irl) respect or admire Tywin. Definitely show people have no idea what his real character is like, but book people who admire him scare me. Dude is one of the most despicable people in ASOIAF, and that says a lot.
It’s a mix of “ends justify the means” and “it was different back then” and “at least he loved Joanna” and other excuses. Seriously, I once found someone trying to argue that what Tywin did to Tyrion and Tysha was justified.
Charles Dance’s portrayal was awesome as Tywin. I think most agree he was a bad dude but there were moments where you couldn’t completely disagree with his reasoning
This is kind of disingenuous. There is no evidence this is a plot by Tywin and to present it as such you omit the part where Barristan asks Tywin for permission to do this and Tywin gives him 24 hours.
FWIW, Tywin could've just very reasonably assumed that Barristan would fail & die in the attempt. So agreed, as it cost him nothing, & would even free up a space on the Kingsguard that could be filled with one of his own men. Regardless, you're right that there's no real evidence for this theory, that has largely just come about to try to ascribe even the smallest degree of rationality to Darklyn's actions.
Simple answer to this problem: Barristan did this in open court. Tywin can't politically afford to say no. The whole point of the Kingsguard is them being willing to give their lives for the King's if you go back in fire and blood, there are multiple times of the Hand giving the KG one order and the king or representative of the king giving another and every time historically, the KG basically told the Hand he had no authority over them, so even if Tywin says no, Barristan could just say, "Well, I don't answer to you anyway, Lord Tywin, so go fuck yourself" and go try and save Aerys anyway and be in the right by precedent. Tywin saying he had 24 hours was the closest he could reasonably come to saying no without adding another crack to his, at this point, already crumbling authority as Hand
@@joshb444No Barristan did not do this in court. He did it in Tywin's siege camp outside Duskendale, in front of Tywin's men, and where Tywin was by far the highest ranking official and in command. If he wanted to tell Barristan no, he very easily could have. His authority was far from crumbling. Even back then many thought him to be the real king of sorts, just lacking a crown. This is why Ilyn Payne lost his tongue.
I can imagine Tywin watching Barristan and Aerys riding back to safety, his eye twitching at the incredulity of this random Kingsguard who he had given one night to do the impossible actually pull it off. I can imagine him riding off somewhere private as soon as he could make an excuse and just screaming in rage. What really irked him I’m sure, is that he couldn’t even take any revenge on Barristan….he had begged for Tywins permission and Tywin had granted it.
While I agree it's more than likely that Tywin wanted Aerys to die at Duskendale, it strikes me as more opportunistic than Machiavellian. First of all, the reasons for Lord Darklyn's defiance are well known. He was trying to win a charter of autonomy for Duskendale, in order to revive their sea trade. Which had been on a steady decline since the rise of Kingslanding. If Lord Darklyn were conspiring with Tywin to kill Aerys, why would he have taken Aerys hostage rather than killing him immediately? And if Taiwan had planned Aerys death, why would he have granted Sir Barristan's request to attempt a rescue? He could have easily refused on the grounds that the plan had no chance of success and was more likely to get Aerys killed.
I would argue his greatest failure was flooding the 2nd largest gold mine in the westerlands...instead of giving it to his bro kev and having 2 obscenely rich lannisters
Aerys was doing exactly the opposite of what Tywin told him to do and he used it to his advantage just like Cersei tried the same thing with Robert and the melee.
I don’t think Tywin plotted this but I don’t think Tywin cared if the king died I mean his response to this is very much how Tywin handles these types of situations listen to the reigns of castomere for evidence and sacking of kings landing and letting the mountain loose on the river lands and his actions during the war of the 5 kings
Hizdahr is DEFINITELY not the harpy in the show, unless his plan was to get brutally murdered. Pretty clear that the harpy was the masters of yunkai and astapor.
I just had a thought of going with that consipiracy: In addition to elevating Rhaegar, he was going to have Rhaegar marry Cersei. Edit: Oh I see another commenter had same thought.
He refused to pay his taxes because he wanted to be able to offer reduced tariffs and tax duties on his port of Duskendale because all the ships were going to kings landing to offload cargo... Again something from the Histories and Lore DVD extras! Have you seriously not watched those?
I wouldn't take the show as proof of anything other than the things that we know George told them, e.g. the Shireen burning, Hodor reveal, and Bran as King. Everything else was Dumb and Dumber doing whatever they could to wrap the show up.
Tywin as depicted by the show was a man of limited imagination and culture. He was not even a competent Machiavellian. The Prince and the Discourses took instituting a new polity as their objects. That was not Tywin's project. His project was to build a monument (legacy) to his own ego. His method: Cold calculation and a monstrous cruelty. He also was a poor father, as narcissists often are. He sired a Mad Queen, a son besotted with his sister and a son he despised because he considered that son to be a narcissistic wound. He tormented and betrayed that second son, so much so that that son murdered him. House Lannister almost disintegrated after his death. Tyrion, the despised son, the murderer, went on to assist Dany Targaryan in restoring her house to the Iron Throne. When she burnt King's Landing, when she made a Holocaust out of the city, she did more than put an end to the Lannister domination of Westros. She betrayed her better nature and pledged herself, her armies and Westros to a condition of perpetual war or permanent revolution. Her actions and words suggest that she considered herself an enlightened despot. But the despised son of Tywin recognized her for what she had become: A monster. The despised son then convinced Jon Snow to murder Dany, the woman he loved, thus putting an end to House Targaryan. This murder was a just act. It was a necessary act if Westros were to break the wheel. Once Greyworm's mindless need for 'justice' was resolved, the despised son then took advantage of the situation at hand to create a new monarchy, a weakly democratic monarchy (the monarch being elected by the high lords) with a new form of legitimacy (a democratic legitimacy based on a confederal system). Gone at an instance were right by conquest (might makes right), hereditary succession (right by birth) and monarchical absolutism. Neither Tyrion (Hand of the King) nor Bran (king) would be warrior rulers. That was contrary to their nature and capacity. Their rule would be marked by reason, insight and a commitment to the common wellbeing. They would need to rebuild what remained of the realm, a task Dany would not attend to if she she set out to liberate countries by fire and sword. The new Westros would foster communication and nation-building. Nation-building in the aftermath of three catastrophic wars needed to be a common goal for the remaining great houses. Fire, the Unsullied and the Dothraki would have no part to play in this. As Varys once put it: A small man can cast a long shadow." I believe Tywin and Cersi will be all but lost to history, standing as they will be in Tyrion's shadow -- if, of course, Westros does not falter because of the mistakes made during, before and immediately after Tywin's time. Tyrion was the true Machiavellian hero of the story. He founded a new monarchy, one that was nearly a republic. It might last if Westros is lucky -- if fortuna favors it. That's the best the peoples of Westros could hope for. My interpretation is based on the show.
He gets nerfed by the plot. If he had normal children instead of 3 walking liabilities and was not living during the era of returning magic, he would simply just win.
I think tywin probably was a insecure kid he said his father was laughed at he probably was laughed at or belittled or thought lesser of because of his father. Probably why grows to resent him. Reason of his Bane. The Bully becomes the bully. And with how the Jaime Cersei situation turned out. Tyrion became another reason to be laughed at. Tyrion is the most like Tywin. tywin also was probably the reason the Greyjoys rebelled and attacked the north. Balon lost a lot in the first and other than suicide theres no way balon truly believes they can still win independence. Have to have some backing. And Tywin stays plotting all that man did. Point is he likes having other people do shit for him and then get all fickle and say peace out. Also making this comment 4 minutes in so this might just be me blabbering
Something he _reportedly_ replied when those worrying for Aerys' fate if they attacked Duskendale, but not something he is outright confirmed to have said. And why would he have said it? Such a brazen statement would have been treason.
@@DominionSorcerer You have to consider the perspective from a fictional Maester, who wasn't there. He can't really write "he definitely said it, without any doubt.", can he? No important character had a real interest in Aerys surviving this, so who would tell Aerys? And even if someone did, would he believe it? Mayhaps, even probably. But what could he do? Lord Tywin was in a very different position than Rickard Stark when he was executed five years later.
@@vonHartstein considering it from the perspective of Maester Yandel who wrote it is exactly why I doubt Tywin ever actually said something like that. Yandel was five years old when the Defiance took place and the in-universe book where he quotes Tywin as saying such wasn't written until long into Robert's reign, with several editions being re-written since - the latter of whom are very carefully edited to show Tywin and the Lannisters in as positive a light as possible, including downplaying the roles of both Stannis and Ned in Robert's Rebellion. A man so fearful of being accused of treason that he practically removes the role both of those played in the rebellion hardly seems like the man to say "Yeah. Tywin supposedly said Rhaegar would be a better king of Aerys died in the attempt to free him" in a book dedicated to first Tywin's son in law and later on his grandchildren.
To be fair, the Dornish had gotten away with (effectively) imprisoning a king centuries prior. It looks like Darklyn was a bit obsessed by "Well the Dornish got away with it..."
The crux of the issue is that the Dornish could effectively resist an occupation even when the Iron Throne had dragons. A petty lord right on the doorstep of the King's seat of power doing so was really dumb.
I think Tywin's biggest mistake was mistreating Tyrion. Had he accepted him, most of his problems would have been solved, including his legacy. He could have divorced Tyrion from Tysha without graping her. His Duskendale plot may have failed but he got away with it, and, seriously, who TF would have bet that Barriston would have been such a bad a$$? They should really make a show about Barriston's life.
@@DMES-wp2fj That's a good theory, but I like to think it's the other way around. That Tywin hates Tyrion for killing his mom, and Jaime is Aerys' son. Has an even sadder quality to it. Tywin did raise Jaime, so he is a father figure to him, as well as his cousin; but Aerts' dumb a$$ forced his son to run him thru.
Yeah no. Tyrion was spoiled to the core read the book. He is whining for things that never belonged to him. He hates his family and their friends and then wonders why they don't like him. Doesn't he understand people can see right through him.
Absolutely. Tyrion wouldn't have killed him if it wasn't for the Tysha situation. Which Tywin had no reason to do besides pettyness. A close second was allowing Tyrion to be judged despite knowing he was innocent. A third Keeping Varys around
One of the main flaws in Tywin's plan for Lannister domination was how much he wanted to be nothing like his father. He obviously had a different personality to start with, but not being laughed at or disrespected was almost as important as building his legacy. In this, he made fear, brutality, stick, and vinegar his building blocks. Somehow not realising, in all his wisdom, that those things are single use only - for him - and will not prop up his cause once he himself is gone. He completely mishandled his children, all three of them. Ignoring their weaknesses and not playing to their strengths. It is a little delusional in thinking that the world and people with morph as he wants them to or needs them to be. A smarter man would've remarried in the 15 years his heir refused to leave Kingsguard and Tyrion not growing another inch (and thus not reshaping himself to be the desired heir). That was actually really strange decision for a calculating lord not prone to flights of fancy. Even if he had loved Joanna, 20 plus years seems like an appropriate mourning period? He also lacked subtlety which didn't make him any friend who genuinely wanted to help his cause "just because" but left plenty of enemies ready to pounce when the wind was right. I wonder what Rhaegar thought about him. Considering that Tywin removed himself after Harrenhall and there's no indication he was angling for another coup with the prince. Which leaves me wondering what he was planning for the whole year before the Rebellion and then through all the months until the sack. There are ways in which he could've won the game, replae Aerys with Rhaegar, and even replace Elia with Cersei to get all he wanted. But he didn't. He waited until it was time to start from scratch with a new regime. And then he mishandled that completely, lol. I wonder if the whole Duskendele incident lasted 6 months because Tywin was testing Rhaegar as Prince Regent? He was 18 and unmarried. Was it a test run before letting go off Aerys and installing Rhaegar in his place with a bride ready to be (Cersei was 11 though...). And was this happening the same year the Tourney at Lannisport took place where Aerys refused Tywin a betrothal and called him a servant, etc. I can see Tywin being miffied after such a rebuke.
I think Tywin is one of the most overrated characters in the entire universe. He is a good administrator, yes, but other than that, what is his best accomplishment? Destroying two vassal houses that rebelled against him. He completely mishandled Robert's Rebellion. Sacking King's Landing gained him nothing but enmity against his house. He could act very differently in many ways that would still make the Lannisters powerful and not that hated. Then, as you said, he completely mishandled all of his children and also refused to make new ones. He was blind to Jaime and Cersei's situation all those years, leading to the War of the Five Kings. There, he was continuously humiliated by a 15-year-old Robb Stark's manoeuvres. How did Robb lose the war? The Greyjoys attacked, Cat released Jaime, Robb married Jeyne Westering etc. None had anything to do with Tywin's "genius". Finally, his "crowning achievement", the Red Wedding. Honestly, the Northern cause was mostly lost at that point. Well, Robb could forsake the Riverlands and stayed in the North to only defend it, but that would create massive issues for him, too. Butchering the Starks and the Northern army at a wedding only made everyone despise the Lannisters even more and made sure the North would never again willingly have peace with the Lannisters. His saving of King's Landing was nice, but he was once again extremely lucky that Renly was killed by a damn shadow. He messed up his political moves, as well. For instance, he should've married Sansa to Tommen and not Tyrion and I'm kinda lazy rn but there is a whole bunch of things he could do differently and get better results in that front, too. Charles Dance was so brilliant that I often found Tywin competent while watching the show and he was my favourite villain and among favourite characters. But when you think about it, he was repeatedly bested by others and not accomplished a whole lot solely through his skills.
Imagine if Tywin had actually properly utilized his children? He chose to treat them likes pawns to further his families' legacy. Had he treated them like human beings and acknowledged each of their strengths, the Lannisters probably have full control of the Seven Kingdoms and are in a much better spot even after Tywin dies. His 3 children are all masters of a different craft. He has/had one of the greatest living warriors in Jaime, one of the greatest political schemers in Cersei, and one of the most brilliant minds in Tyrion...and he had them all at his disposal. But instead, he ignored them all and only paid attention to them if he needed them for something or if one of them acted out. His own pride and obsession with being perceived as strong and always in control worked while he was alive, but immediately crumbled the moment he died. In my opinion, that is his biggest failure.
@@barissaaydinnEven with the Battle of the Blackwater, if Robb had communicated effectively with Edmure Tully, Tywin's host would have marched into his trap and been completely routed.
Tywin is definitely more likeable in the show. You kind of don't mind that he's a villain because he's so cool. In the books it's so much more obvious how much of a monster he is and how much he traumatized all of his kids.
Yeah, his scenes with Arya really endeared him to a lot of people. I liked those scenes at first, but as time went on, I found them really odd. He knew she was a northern highborn girl, but didn't think that she might be a valuable hostage and it would be a good idea to find out who she is? He suddenly is friendly and can empathize with this girl, while also being capable of such cruelty as having Tyrion's low born wife gang graped? I know people can compartmentalize things like that and be capable of incredible generosity and incredible cruelty in different circumstances, but I feel like they tried to jam together Charles Dance's charm with Tywin's cruelty, without taking into account that they were changing Tywin's character by adding those Arya scenes. I.e. they wanted both the charming Tywin and the unredeemable monster Tywin at the same time.
So basically, Tywin took a part in creating the Mad King. King Aerys II had potential, even if a bit naive, but in the end.... well, we all know what happens. Same with the likes of Viserys III; some Targaryens aren't born mad or cruel, they're made.
9:11 I don’t think so when Barriston recounts this memory it’s after Yunkhai tries to convince Hizdah to kill the dragons…… The point of Barriston’s arc in Mereen was to highlight the failures of the Kingsgaurd oaths…. He served a king who ultimately didn’t deserve his service and the situation is repeated in Mereen with Hizdah (a rapist and a slaver who profits of people fighting for sport) had Barriston not deposed Hizdah the dragons would’ve been killed and the freedmen would’ve been re-enslaved Hizdah may not be the Harpy but he’s definitely involved in the conspiracy to depose Dany…. Yunkhai had essentially won the war slavery had returned to slavers bay the fighting pits were reopened and the dragons were caged why not kill Dany?! Barriston did the right thing ending the fake peace in Mereen as Yunkhai was only waiting for Volantis to join the war.. Barriston’s arc is similar with Jamie’s arc both seeing the flaws of blindly following kings how both respond to this revelation is pretty interesting Jaime wants to leave it all behind and live a peaceful life with his son and Barriston decides to follow a person worthy of service Daenerys
In the show, Tywin IS my favorite character. I'd have loved for Stannis to keep that spot, but they assassinated his character the second he even considered burning his own daughter at the stake, which was the most un-Stannis thing anyone could have ever done.
Well, it's inconsistent with his TV portrayal where they play up his affection for Shireen - in the books it's Selyse who's soft on their daughter and Stannis who's more distant. I find it a bit easier to imagine the book version being persuaded that it's a "necessary sacrifice" to "do what needs to be done" regardless of personal feelings. Davos already had to smuggle his nephew Edric away to stop Stannis sacrificing him, and he's gone significantly further down the Rhllor cult initiation since then. Don't get me wrong, it'd be his final betrayal of his own humanity and would seal his doom, but I can see it happening.
"when winds of winter is released," I think you mean "if." It is a pretty big if now, considering Martin's reluctance, his revealed feelings, and his age.
It wouldn’t surprise me if there was a conspiracy but I think it’s simply Gurm taking inspiration from the prelude to the wars of the Roses when Edward VI was taken prisoner after St Albans. Essentially the king’s authority was not respected. It’s probably crazier in Westeros but I guess Aerys was really that despised.
We don't get to 'see' Tywin's logic/thinking behind his actions. We don't know what is going through his mind, but we get to see inside Cersei's reasoning. I would bet it wasn't much different for Tywin. He kills 300+ peeps for owing his dad money and talking smack. WtF-that is INSANE. Tywin wasn't even lord when he pulls that stunt-we get to see the results of what happens when Tywin loses his shit and with Cersei it is likely that we can understand his reasoning now. Tywin is effed up. Like how Roose is worse than his son, Ramsey, but he is better at hiding it from people who are looking.
Tywin/Dance is one of the best performances in the show because he didn't have to appear in the 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th seasons. They would have ruined him.
I wouldn't say that Tywin was behind the King's imprisonment. Chances are lord darklyn's wife who was from myr wanted aerys for some nefarious purpose, like birthing a king. This explains why she had her feminine parts torn out and was burned at stake after the sack. Also lord darklyn did not want arebellion, he wanted to lower taxes for ships making port for duskendale. We read this in a brienne chapter set in duskendale.
Tywin did not plan the Defiance of Duskendale and he did not want Aerys dead. If Tywin wanted Aerys dead, he could have had Pycelle poison him whenever he wanted.
The Defiance of Duskendale seems to occur shortly after Tywin was refused by Aerys II in his quest to wed Rhaegar and Cersei. According to what we have heard, Aerys did this by calling Tywin his servant, and that seems like the sort of slight Tywin would not care to stand.
That’s an excellent point that I wish I’d mentioned!
@@QuinnTheGM I'd have to go back and check the primaries, but I'm pretty sure that it's around Cersei's 10th birthday when she gets the valonqar prophecy. It's still well before Rhaegar was betrothed to Elia, as well. I think it helps give a lot of justification as to why Tywin would move so decisively, as in your theory.
@VeritasKnight iirc it was during a tourney at Lannisport that Tywin was hosting to celebrate the birth of Prince Viserys; her aunt Genna told her Tywin's plan, which led her to visit Maggy the Frog. Then, well, yeah...
@@X525Crossfire Yeah, off the top of my head I'm not sure if that's when Tywin was also rejected by Aerys, but I *think* it is, as it all comes from Cersei's recollection of the prophecy and the events around it. It was Genna who told her about Aerys's rejection, too, so for that to happen I expect Aerys did it publicly. I can't see Tywin taking kindly to that.
Coincidence. No family is stupid enough to voluntarily kidnap A KING. Tywin just seized on the opportunity. Don't think about it too much.
2:50 I think Darklyn was pissed about the decline of Duskendale as a trading hub. It had been the primary port in the Blackwater Bay for merchants coming from Essos for centuries, until King's Landing was built. But since the Targaryens built their capital, most of the trade by the time of Aerys's reign had diverted to King's Landing rather than Duskendale, so Lord Darklyn was only getting a tiny fraction of the incomes that his ancestors used to get.
Prison as a plot device in the books is huge, a lot of characters get imprisoned and it changes them a lot, besides davos tbh who takes being imprisoned like a champ I swear
He's like Steve McQueen as the cooler king in The Great Escape, he's been in there before he knows the drill.
It makes sense though, these high lords who've had everything handed to them from birth don't handle imprisonment well and sometimes come out better (Jaime) or worse (Aerys)
Cause that’s how it is in real life poor people have all these boundaries and limits and learn early that you can f around and find out. If you’re used to having servants you probably imagine that being the help would be awful just being forced to be bored and captive for an extend time losing your personal agency or most of it would be much harder on you than somebody who’s been there and is willing to go back if it means their family surviving
Never thought about that but true. He knows what it is to be without power so he was able to just chill. Also the prisonment wastn that rough. He wasnt tortured and when prisoned he was alone so just his king far away to worry about.
Not to mention he’s probably been under the thrall of the drowned god after drowning during the battle of the blackwater. He seeks much more violent ends especially towards the red woman a zealot of the fire god. Which could be attributed to losing his sons. Or could be the residual impact of a vengeful god giving him a second chance.
it would be tragic if Barristan's coup really does go poorly (though I agree it's likely). he's got such a pathological need to constantly be following someone's orders and now for the 2nd time in his life he finally does something of his own decision and just like last time it backfires miserably
Tywin and Aerys didn't meet during the war of ninepenny kings, they literally grew up together because Tytos had Tywin sent to King's Landing as a page afte Tywins defiance for the Frey betrothal. So they would've met during Egg's reign.
??? Tywin literally knights Aerys during the War of the Ninepenny Kings
@@milessullivan-b3y the video stated that they MET during the war. The didn't. They practically grew up together which was why Aerys wanted Tywin to knight him.
Charles Dance dominated the screen in every scene as Tywin Lannister. He should've won an emmy
1:43 Correction: Tywin, Aerys and Steffon Baratheon (Robert and Stannis's dad) all met as children when Tywin was a cupbearer at King's Landing. They were childhood friends. Tywin (then a knight) then knighted Aerys during the War of the Ninepenny Kings.
I don't think Tywin and Lord Darklyn were working together. Lord Darklyn was an idiot, but even he couldn't have thought that Tywin would have tossed a royal pardon into a burning city. If Lord Darklyn had been working with Tywin, the captivity wouldn't have lasted half a year; Aerys would have died shortly into his visit and it would have been blamed on an accident or a third-party assassin. That would have been a much more pardonable situation. Lord Darklyn's only hope was Aerys agreeing to his terms quickly and giving the pardon himself, or denying there was ever a kidnapping, to save face.
I always thought it was weird how long Tywin let the King sit in Duskendale...
Everyone needs a break from him
Can we take a second to think about the plot armor around Aerys the second? Seriously, there were at least three separate times where the world could’ve been rid of him and yet none of them were enough.
A fire destroys Summerhall and kills like 80% of house Targaryen? Don’t worry, Aerys came out of it alive. A new petty lord revelion after the last one cost king Maekar’s life? Don’t worry, Aerys will come out of it alive, if only a bit more crazy. A suspicious tourney sponsored by a relatively poor house that might or might not be used to stage a coup? Hey! would you look at that? Varys has decided he wants to ruin everyone’s fun and tell the king to go show himself.
Even with the king’s guard he was lucky. Assembling a decent guard was always a problem and yet Aerys had the luck of living at the same time as folks like Arthur Dayne or Barristan Selmy and having them all with nothing better to do than protecting the king.
The part about Varys wasn't so much plot armor as just Varys wanting to make sure that Aerys stays in power bc he is destabilizing the realm. Varys didn't just decide to ruin everyone's fun; he saw the plot and thwarted it. Having Varys as an ally who legitimately wants to keep you alive until his plans come to fruition is extremely valuable.
@@j-rey- Fair enough.
Now that you point Varys out, you made me wonder if he himself couldn’t be considered an statistic’s miracle.
I’m sorry if this is not what you meant, but I assume you are going along the theory that says Varys is either a Blackfyre supporter or a Blacfyre himself. Those weren’t exactly common after the nine penny king’s war, so him existing is already kinda unprovable. Then he had to be good at something Aerys needed. Let’s remember he is a foreigner, so he not only needed to be good, he needed to be better than every person in both Westeros and Essos at his business for Aerys to bring him in. And then, for all this to play in Aeryses favor at the end, Varys had to go “what will bring more havoc? A coup that probably will bring a civil war or this single mad idiot? Let’s go with the mad idiot”.
And yes, I know akording to this theory this was all part of Varyses and Ilyrio’s plan, but come on, not even Tywin’s or Littlefinger’s schemes work so perfectly.
@pauloapaezjorgeemilio1772 Oh for sure, Varys could never exist in real life 😆, he is way too skilled. And what I meant doesn't really matter if Varys is a Blackfyre; it seems his plan is to have Young Griff take over the realm, regardless of Young Griff's true heritage, and having a Mad King at the helm (of the realm 😆) is perfect. The civil war would have been 15 years too early, as Varys's replacement king was just a wee babe. By the time Young Griff was fighting age, Rhaegar would probably be king, and he would inspure much more loyalty. Also, I doubt it would be a civil war. I think most lords would be only board with deposing Aerys diplomatically and replacing him. Then Aerys pursued Varys specifically bc he heard of his skill as a spymaster, bc Varys was so notorious and Aerys was so paranoid, so Varys being a foreigner wasn't too big of a deal. Wh9mever was the best spymaster would be Aerys's choice. It just so happened to be Varys. He was just so good that the Westerosi king requested his services. Aerys was really lucky, but he also had privileges as King
Reminds me of Hitler, dozens of attempts to assassinate him and non worked.
I love the idea of Barristan beaing some kind of Westorosii Guan Yu. Or maybe Zhao Yun.
barry is guan yu Arthur dayne is zhao yun with a special blue blade and all
Whoever those guys are
@@jimjohnson6944 Legendary warriors from China's Three Kingdom period. Guan Yu was deified as a war god after his death for all kinds of single handed badassery. Zhao Yun among many other feats. Is famous for singlehandedly fighting his way through an enemy army twice to save his lord's infant son.
@@ReiMari12 that's dope. I will look into that, thanks bro
Definitely Guan Yu. Tywin is Cao Cao or in senkogu jidai he is Nobunaga
During the wars of the roses the earl of Warwick tried exactly this, although for somewhat different reasons.
3:39 There is nothing really strange about the Lord of Duskendale capturing King Aerys II. instead of killing him. Having the king as your prisoner/hostage is an enormously dangerous but potentially lucrative gamble which you could use for a rich ransom, hugh concessions (like Duskendale being exempted from paying taxes for some decades) or - if one wants to take the Simon de Montfort route - even ruling as the regent with the king as your puppet (tho im pretty sure that wasen't the intention in the defiance of Duskendale).
Killing him on the other hand would be regicide and that would've caused probally the whole of Westeros to take up arms against Duskendale, even (then King) Rheagar who didnt even like his owk father, just in order to save face.
So yeah, not killing Aerys was the far more sensible thing in this situation.
Darkstar was obviously behind the Defiance of Duskendale.
Big if true
He is of the dusk...
Darkstar is the ancestor of all Darklyns.
If there is a Harpy I think it's the Green Grace but Hizdahr is certainly involved somehow with the Sons of the Harpy. The Shavepate may not be completely right with his suspicions but he is not completely wrong either.
Personally I’ve always thought the Shavepate was the harpy
@@QuinnTheGM I just don't see how that would help his plans. He seems genuinely honest about crushing the institution of slavery. Sure he has a grudge against the Great Masters of Meereen but I think he is an idealist too.
@@status_quo_postOpportunist is what I figured, like yeah he's helping but I would never trust him 100%. Just being aware he has his own agenda for himself.
My money was always on the Green Grace, her cousin Grazdan, or Reznak.
@@QuinnTheGMI think the irony of the Shavepat is that he’s distrusted by everyone when he’s been completely honest and upfront with his loyalty to Dany and opposition to slavery to contrast Hizdah who’s completely lying about being antislavery despite trying to reopen the fighting pits and sleeping with a slave woman when Dany leaves Mereen
@@QuinnTheGMThe Green Grace is the Harpy imo
She said that the killings would stop if Dany married a Meereenese noble, and sure enough, the very day that Dany agreed to marry Hizdhar the killings stopped.
Baristan is a cryptid or a Kaiju of some sort cuz WTF that’s some Zorro shit
Can we the asoiaf fandom start referring to Barristan Selmy as Barristan the Badass? He deserves the modern nomenclature.
Someone in the comments pointed out that Tywin’s biggest mistake was mistreating Tyrion, and now I see several parallels that both Tyrion and Cersei mistreat people and gain lots of enemies
Who do you think they learned it from? Their dad.
Hayford Castle is the closest to King's Landing.
Yeah, Jaime's host camps there the first night out of King's Landing in AFFC. Rosby & Stokeworth are both also closer to the city than Duskendale, along with a few other unnamed seats Visenya & Rhaenys secure the submission of at the start of the Conquest. The Dun Fort of Duskendale is rather the nearest *major* castle to KL, being that it controls the port town.
Excellent video. I’ve always believed that caused his downfall was he caused Tyrion to Hate him rather then Fear. Fear can keep people in line but when you make them Hate you, they can and will rise above that Fear. Since Tywin’s death, no one was able to back up the threats the Lannisters made.
darklyn may have exchange rash words to king and king became angry then for his safety he kept the king as his prisoner. It was not prplanned. But Tywin use that opportunity for his interests . if Tywin was preplanned in this coup he may inform Darklyn by secret that Barrysten Selmy was coming to Duskendale at night. They can captureor killed Selmy.
I wonder how if Aerys had died would Tywin and Rhaegar had gotten along even though the initial marriage pact was declined. Maybe it would’ve been changed but idk if he was married yet by this point.
Duskendale took place in 277, Rhaegar was only betrothed to Elia in 279. If Aerys had died at Duskendale then Tywin as Hand would undoubtedly have renewed his push to marry Cersei to Rhaegar.
@@anthroposmetron4475 could’ve been interesting to see if he would’ve said yes. I wonder if the prophecy for Cersei still would’ve been in effect because Rhaegar would’ve been king. Also I wonder if Cersei may let slip to rhaegar about the 3 kids and his whole “the dragon must have three heads” and if that could’ve swayed him.
@@t_hetty1758 That's a good point. We do know that Cersei was absolutely infatuated with Rhaegar, so she would have needed absolutely no convincing to marry him.
If there was a conspiracy i dont think Darklyn would have waited 6 months
Tywin's legacy is one of immense and constant failure. Another comment said this, but Tywin's actions and attitude were short-term. Tywin's biggest flaw (besides his lust for war crimes) was this inability to think more than a few months into the future.
Joanna dies and Tywin just accepts his 3 kids are enough. He was in his 30s and could have easily had another kid or at least married into a bigger alliance.
He abused and/or neglected all 3 of his kids. He was especially brutal to his son and heir.
He wanted Cercei marry into Royalty, but never taught her about court or how to actually govern. He just instilled his misogynistic views into her.
Look at almost every single decision Tywin makes throughout the series and you see a man so consumed with grand standing and image and fear that anything beyond his own ego
Hizdahr isn’t the harpy. The green grace is. And he’s in league with her. He’s not the puppet master but he is absolutely involved.
Huh, that is pretty cool! Fun theory, I dig it. I would love to see your theories on Mereen and the harpy
Sure we are waiting for the video about Meereen!
Valyrian steel video!
I would really be interested in a video about the Harpey and Meereen
9:02 is Hizdahr zo Loraq the harpy in the show and not in the books I had it backwards in my head. In my opinion he is the Harpy in the books and not in the show. Is there a detail that I missed?
Lets goooo
I'll never understand why people (irl) respect or admire Tywin. Definitely show people have no idea what his real character is like, but book people who admire him scare me. Dude is one of the most despicable people in ASOIAF, and that says a lot.
It’s a mix of “ends justify the means” and “it was different back then” and “at least he loved Joanna” and other excuses.
Seriously, I once found someone trying to argue that what Tywin did to Tyrion and Tysha was justified.
Charles Dance’s portrayal was awesome as Tywin. I think most agree he was a bad dude but there were moments where you couldn’t completely disagree with his reasoning
I have always assumed that the Defiance was a creation of Varys in order to gain control of Aerys.
I wanna see this in live action at some point.
I want to see Martin explanation for how old man barristan did all those acrobatics and carried the king out of there
Barristan wasn’t an old man at that point, which helps
This is kind of disingenuous. There is no evidence this is a plot by Tywin and to present it as such you omit the part where Barristan asks Tywin for permission to do this and Tywin gives him 24 hours.
FWIW, Tywin could've just very reasonably assumed that Barristan would fail & die in the attempt. So agreed, as it cost him nothing, & would even free up a space on the Kingsguard that could be filled with one of his own men. Regardless, you're right that there's no real evidence for this theory, that has largely just come about to try to ascribe even the smallest degree of rationality to Darklyn's actions.
Simple answer to this problem: Barristan did this in open court. Tywin can't politically afford to say no. The whole point of the Kingsguard is them being willing to give their lives for the King's
if you go back in fire and blood, there are multiple times of the Hand giving the KG one order and the king or representative of the king giving another and every time historically, the KG basically told the Hand he had no authority over them, so even if Tywin says no, Barristan could just say, "Well, I don't answer to you anyway, Lord Tywin, so go fuck yourself" and go try and save Aerys anyway and be in the right by precedent. Tywin saying he had 24 hours was the closest he could reasonably come to saying no without adding another crack to his, at this point, already crumbling authority as Hand
@@joshb444No Barristan did not do this in court. He did it in Tywin's siege camp outside Duskendale, in front of Tywin's men, and where Tywin was by far the highest ranking official and in command. If he wanted to tell Barristan no, he very easily could have. His authority was far from crumbling. Even back then many thought him to be the real king of sorts, just lacking a crown. This is why Ilyn Payne lost his tongue.
I can imagine Tywin watching Barristan and Aerys riding back to safety, his eye twitching at the incredulity of this random Kingsguard who he had given one night to do the impossible actually pull it off. I can imagine him riding off somewhere private as soon as he could make an excuse and just screaming in rage. What really irked him I’m sure, is that he couldn’t even take any revenge on Barristan….he had begged for Tywins permission and Tywin had granted it.
You do know he respected barristan he thought joffrey letting him go was stupid
Daenerys in Meereen is great, the more the better
Keep up the great work
I never though that Hizdahr wouldn't be the Harpy and now i need a video to be convinced otherwise
While I agree it's more than likely that Tywin wanted Aerys to die at Duskendale, it strikes me as more opportunistic than Machiavellian.
First of all, the reasons for Lord Darklyn's defiance are well known. He was trying to win a charter of autonomy for Duskendale, in order to revive their sea trade. Which had been on a steady decline since the rise of Kingslanding. If Lord Darklyn were conspiring with Tywin to kill Aerys, why would he have taken Aerys hostage rather than killing him immediately? And if Taiwan had planned Aerys death, why would he have granted Sir Barristan's request to attempt a rescue? He could have easily refused on the grounds that the plan had no chance of success and was more likely to get Aerys killed.
You forgot about Hayford!
Tywin was behind the Defiance, for sure. He just underestimated Ser Grandpa. Greatest knight in the land. A costly mistake by Tywin.
Tell us who the Harpy is
Should rheanyra be considered as important as visenya and Deanerys?
The taxation of trade routes to outlying kingdoms is in dispute.
I would argue his greatest failure was flooding the 2nd largest gold mine in the westerlands...instead of giving it to his bro kev and having 2 obscenely rich lannisters
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Aerys was doing exactly the opposite of what Tywin told him to do and he used it to his advantage just like Cersei tried the same thing with Robert and the melee.
I don’t think Tywin plotted this but I don’t think Tywin cared if the king died I mean his response to this is very much how Tywin handles these types of situations listen to the reigns of castomere for evidence and sacking of kings landing and letting the mountain loose on the river lands and his actions during the war of the 5 kings
Hizdahr is DEFINITELY not the harpy in the show, unless his plan was to get brutally murdered. Pretty clear that the harpy was the masters of yunkai and astapor.
I don’t think Tywin planned it but he dragged his feet trying save the king
Honestly Tywin in the books is not as smart as his stans wish he was
I want a Harpy video!
Why would Tywin need to lay a six-month long siege to Duskendale, not to mention an ultimatum, if they both agreed to F up the mad king, genius?
I just had a thought of going with that consipiracy: In addition to elevating Rhaegar, he was going to have Rhaegar marry Cersei.
Edit: Oh I see another commenter had same thought.
A harpy video would be cool
Hizdar was not the Harpy or even a member in the show, because the Harpies kill him
He refused to pay his taxes because he wanted to be able to offer reduced tariffs and tax duties on his port of Duskendale because all the ships were going to kings landing to offload cargo... Again something from the Histories and Lore DVD extras! Have you seriously not watched those?
more darklyn knights served in the kingsguard than any other house
Hisdar died in the show in the harpy attack . Unless he was a very incompetent leader, he was either not the leader or not even working with them.
I wouldn't take the show as proof of anything other than the things that we know George told them, e.g. the Shireen burning, Hodor reveal, and Bran as King. Everything else was Dumb and Dumber doing whatever they could to wrap the show up.
@@j-rey- Oh, yes, I fully agree, I understood that you said "in the show" it was probably Hisdar. For the books there are so many options.
Isn't Barristan forced to kill him when he tries to arrest Hazdar? (in the last book).
@@michaelbayer5094 As far as I remember he's alive and well in a cell.
Tywin as depicted by the show was a man of limited imagination and culture. He was not even a competent Machiavellian. The Prince and the Discourses took instituting a new polity as their objects. That was not Tywin's project. His project was to build a monument (legacy) to his own ego. His method: Cold calculation and a monstrous cruelty. He also was a poor father, as narcissists often are. He sired a Mad Queen, a son besotted with his sister and a son he despised because he considered that son to be a narcissistic wound. He tormented and betrayed that second son, so much so that that son murdered him. House Lannister almost disintegrated after his death. Tyrion, the despised son, the murderer, went on to assist Dany Targaryan in restoring her house to the Iron Throne. When she burnt King's Landing, when she made a Holocaust out of the city, she did more than put an end to the Lannister domination of Westros. She betrayed her better nature and pledged herself, her armies and Westros to a condition of perpetual war or permanent revolution. Her actions and words suggest that she considered herself an enlightened despot. But the despised son of Tywin recognized her for what she had become: A monster. The despised son then convinced Jon Snow to murder Dany, the woman he loved, thus putting an end to House Targaryan. This murder was a just act. It was a necessary act if Westros were to break the wheel. Once Greyworm's mindless need for 'justice' was resolved, the despised son then took advantage of the situation at hand to create a new monarchy, a weakly democratic monarchy (the monarch being elected by the high lords) with a new form of legitimacy (a democratic legitimacy based on a confederal system). Gone at an instance were right by conquest (might makes right), hereditary succession (right by birth) and monarchical absolutism. Neither Tyrion (Hand of the King) nor Bran (king) would be warrior rulers. That was contrary to their nature and capacity. Their rule would be marked by reason, insight and a commitment to the common wellbeing. They would need to rebuild what remained of the realm, a task Dany would not attend to if she she set out to liberate countries by fire and sword. The new Westros would foster communication and nation-building. Nation-building in the aftermath of three catastrophic wars needed to be a common goal for the remaining great houses. Fire, the Unsullied and the Dothraki would have no part to play in this.
As Varys once put it: A small man can cast a long shadow." I believe Tywin and Cersi will be all but lost to history, standing as they will be in Tyrion's shadow -- if, of course, Westros does not falter because of the mistakes made during, before and immediately after Tywin's time. Tyrion was the true Machiavellian hero of the story. He founded a new monarchy, one that was nearly a republic. It might last if Westros is lucky -- if fortuna favors it. That's the best the peoples of Westros could hope for.
My interpretation is based on the show.
The guy who played tywin was ace
He gets nerfed by the plot. If he had normal children instead of 3 walking liabilities and was not living during the era of returning magic, he would simply just win.
Wish your videos were a bit longer.
Me too, but law school
The Harpy is The Green Grace. FACT!
I would love to see more videos about Dany's ADWD plotline
meeren vieo pls
I think tywin probably was a insecure kid he said his father was laughed at he probably was laughed at or belittled or thought lesser of because of his father. Probably why grows to resent him. Reason of his Bane. The Bully becomes the bully. And with how the Jaime Cersei situation turned out. Tyrion became another reason to be laughed at. Tyrion is the most like Tywin. tywin also was probably the reason the Greyjoys rebelled and attacked the north. Balon lost a lot in the first and other than suicide theres no way balon truly believes they can still win independence. Have to have some backing. And Tywin stays plotting all that man did. Point is he likes having other people do shit for him and then get all fickle and say peace out. Also making this comment 4 minutes in so this might just be me blabbering
I can only imagine the mental storm of curse words Tywin was thinking when Selmy actually managed to rescue the crazy old bastard.
Tywin if he was a quiet kid: You aren't a shame to the Lannister name. Don't come to Duskendale tomorrow.
Thats funny but also a very harmful and hurtful stereotype.
@@4984christianthanks for sticking up for the quiet kids, don’t come to school tomorrow man.
@@Lillie-y7sYou're hilarious
"We have a better king right here."
Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar.
Something he _reportedly_ replied when those worrying for Aerys' fate if they attacked Duskendale, but not something he is outright confirmed to have said. And why would he have said it? Such a brazen statement would have been treason.
@@DominionSorcerer
He was clearly thinking it, but yeah there’s no way Tywin would actually say that out loud
@@DominionSorcerer
You have to consider the perspective from a fictional Maester, who wasn't there. He can't really write "he definitely said it, without any doubt.", can he? No important character had a real interest in Aerys surviving this, so who would tell Aerys? And even if someone did, would he believe it? Mayhaps, even probably. But what could he do? Lord Tywin was in a very different position than Rickard Stark when he was executed five years later.
@@vonHartstein considering it from the perspective of Maester Yandel who wrote it is exactly why I doubt Tywin ever actually said something like that. Yandel was five years old when the Defiance took place and the in-universe book where he quotes Tywin as saying such wasn't written until long into Robert's reign, with several editions being re-written since - the latter of whom are very carefully edited to show Tywin and the Lannisters in as positive a light as possible, including downplaying the roles of both Stannis and Ned in Robert's Rebellion.
A man so fearful of being accused of treason that he practically removes the role both of those played in the rebellion hardly seems like the man to say "Yeah. Tywin supposedly said Rhaegar would be a better king of Aerys died in the attempt to free him" in a book dedicated to first Tywin's son in law and later on his grandchildren.
How Tywin didn’t lose his tongue after saying that is crazy
To be fair, the Dornish had gotten away with (effectively) imprisoning a king centuries prior.
It looks like Darklyn was a bit obsessed by "Well the Dornish got away with it..."
The crux of the issue is that the Dornish could effectively resist an occupation even when the Iron Throne had dragons. A petty lord right on the doorstep of the King's seat of power doing so was really dumb.
@@dawn4383 Oh, yes. But i think that was lost on the lord in question.
Comparing an independent kingdom to a single castle that’s right beside the crowns might is quite a difference don’t you think?
@@jbatts834 Oh, it was a terrible idea. But I reason that Darklyn didn't appreciate the difference.
@@michaelrupp8837 very true.
I think Tywin's biggest mistake was mistreating Tyrion. Had he accepted him, most of his problems would have been solved, including his legacy. He could have divorced Tyrion from Tysha without graping her. His Duskendale plot may have failed but he got away with it, and, seriously, who TF would have bet that Barriston would have been such a bad a$$? They should really make a show about Barriston's life.
He hated Tyrion because he thought, and he probably was Aerys' bastard from Joana.
@@DMES-wp2fj That's a good theory, but I like to think it's the other way around. That Tywin hates Tyrion for killing his mom, and Jaime is Aerys' son. Has an even sadder quality to it. Tywin did raise Jaime, so he is a father figure to him, as well as his cousin; but Aerts' dumb a$$ forced his son to run him thru.
Yeah no. Tyrion was spoiled to the core read the book. He is whining for things that never belonged to him. He hates his family and their friends and then wonders why they don't like him. Doesn't he understand people can see right through him.
@@jai-kk5uu dude Tywin hired men to Mass rape the woman Tyrion Loved just to prove to him he was impossible to be loved
Absolutely. Tyrion wouldn't have killed him if it wasn't for the Tysha situation. Which Tywin had no reason to do besides pettyness. A close second was allowing Tyrion to be judged despite knowing he was innocent. A third Keeping Varys around
One of the main flaws in Tywin's plan for Lannister domination was how much he wanted to be nothing like his father. He obviously had a different personality to start with, but not being laughed at or disrespected was almost as important as building his legacy. In this, he made fear, brutality, stick, and vinegar his building blocks. Somehow not realising, in all his wisdom, that those things are single use only - for him - and will not prop up his cause once he himself is gone. He completely mishandled his children, all three of them. Ignoring their weaknesses and not playing to their strengths. It is a little delusional in thinking that the world and people with morph as he wants them to or needs them to be. A smarter man would've remarried in the 15 years his heir refused to leave Kingsguard and Tyrion not growing another inch (and thus not reshaping himself to be the desired heir). That was actually really strange decision for a calculating lord not prone to flights of fancy. Even if he had loved Joanna, 20 plus years seems like an appropriate mourning period? He also lacked subtlety which didn't make him any friend who genuinely wanted to help his cause "just because" but left plenty of enemies ready to pounce when the wind was right. I wonder what Rhaegar thought about him. Considering that Tywin removed himself after Harrenhall and there's no indication he was angling for another coup with the prince. Which leaves me wondering what he was planning for the whole year before the Rebellion and then through all the months until the sack. There are ways in which he could've won the game, replae Aerys with Rhaegar, and even replace Elia with Cersei to get all he wanted. But he didn't. He waited until it was time to start from scratch with a new regime. And then he mishandled that completely, lol.
I wonder if the whole Duskendele incident lasted 6 months because Tywin was testing Rhaegar as Prince Regent? He was 18 and unmarried. Was it a test run before letting go off Aerys and installing Rhaegar in his place with a bride ready to be (Cersei was 11 though...). And was this happening the same year the Tourney at Lannisport took place where Aerys refused Tywin a betrothal and called him a servant, etc. I can see Tywin being miffied after such a rebuke.
I think Tywin is one of the most overrated characters in the entire universe. He is a good administrator, yes, but other than that, what is his best accomplishment? Destroying two vassal houses that rebelled against him. He completely mishandled Robert's Rebellion. Sacking King's Landing gained him nothing but enmity against his house. He could act very differently in many ways that would still make the Lannisters powerful and not that hated. Then, as you said, he completely mishandled all of his children and also refused to make new ones. He was blind to Jaime and Cersei's situation all those years, leading to the War of the Five Kings. There, he was continuously humiliated by a 15-year-old Robb Stark's manoeuvres. How did Robb lose the war? The Greyjoys attacked, Cat released Jaime, Robb married Jeyne Westering etc. None had anything to do with Tywin's "genius". Finally, his "crowning achievement", the Red Wedding. Honestly, the Northern cause was mostly lost at that point. Well, Robb could forsake the Riverlands and stayed in the North to only defend it, but that would create massive issues for him, too. Butchering the Starks and the Northern army at a wedding only made everyone despise the Lannisters even more and made sure the North would never again willingly have peace with the Lannisters. His saving of King's Landing was nice, but he was once again extremely lucky that Renly was killed by a damn shadow. He messed up his political moves, as well. For instance, he should've married Sansa to Tommen and not Tyrion and I'm kinda lazy rn but there is a whole bunch of things he could do differently and get better results in that front, too. Charles Dance was so brilliant that I often found Tywin competent while watching the show and he was my favourite villain and among favourite characters. But when you think about it, he was repeatedly bested by others and not accomplished a whole lot solely through his skills.
Imagine if Tywin had actually properly utilized his children? He chose to treat them likes pawns to further his families' legacy. Had he treated them like human beings and acknowledged each of their strengths, the Lannisters probably have full control of the Seven Kingdoms and are in a much better spot even after Tywin dies. His 3 children are all masters of a different craft. He has/had one of the greatest living warriors in Jaime, one of the greatest political schemers in Cersei, and one of the most brilliant minds in Tyrion...and he had them all at his disposal. But instead, he ignored them all and only paid attention to them if he needed them for something or if one of them acted out. His own pride and obsession with being perceived as strong and always in control worked while he was alive, but immediately crumbled the moment he died. In my opinion, that is his biggest failure.
@@barissaaydinnsacking kings landing got him and his family in bed with the next Baratheon who quickly brought them in after he did the dirty work.
@@barissaaydinnEven with the Battle of the Blackwater, if Robb had communicated effectively with Edmure Tully, Tywin's host would have marched into his trap and been completely routed.
@@thecockerel86 Exactly. Another instance where it wasn't Tywin's genius what won him the day but his luck.
Tywin is definitely more likeable in the show. You kind of don't mind that he's a villain because he's so cool. In the books it's so much more obvious how much of a monster he is and how much he traumatized all of his kids.
Yeah, his scenes with Arya really endeared him to a lot of people. I liked those scenes at first, but as time went on, I found them really odd. He knew she was a northern highborn girl, but didn't think that she might be a valuable hostage and it would be a good idea to find out who she is? He suddenly is friendly and can empathize with this girl, while also being capable of such cruelty as having Tyrion's low born wife gang graped? I know people can compartmentalize things like that and be capable of incredible generosity and incredible cruelty in different circumstances, but I feel like they tried to jam together Charles Dance's charm with Tywin's cruelty, without taking into account that they were changing Tywin's character by adding those Arya scenes. I.e. they wanted both the charming Tywin and the unredeemable monster Tywin at the same time.
So basically, Tywin took a part in creating the Mad King. King Aerys II had potential, even if a bit naive, but in the end.... well, we all know what happens.
Same with the likes of Viserys III; some Targaryens aren't born mad or cruel, they're made.
Charles Dance killed it. Easily the best acting in the show.
9:11 I don’t think so when Barriston recounts this memory it’s after Yunkhai tries to convince Hizdah to kill the dragons……
The point of Barriston’s arc in Mereen was to highlight the failures of the Kingsgaurd oaths…. He served a king who ultimately didn’t deserve his service and the situation is repeated in Mereen with Hizdah (a rapist and a slaver who profits of people fighting for sport) had Barriston not deposed Hizdah the dragons would’ve been killed and the freedmen would’ve been re-enslaved
Hizdah may not be the Harpy but he’s definitely involved in the conspiracy to depose Dany…. Yunkhai had essentially won the war slavery had returned to slavers bay the fighting pits were reopened and the dragons were caged why not kill Dany?! Barriston did the right thing ending the fake peace in Mereen as Yunkhai was only waiting for Volantis to join the war.. Barriston’s arc is similar with Jamie’s arc both seeing the flaws of blindly following kings how both respond to this revelation is pretty interesting Jaime wants to leave it all behind and live a peaceful life with his son and Barriston decides to follow a person worthy of service Daenerys
In the show, Tywin IS my favorite character. I'd have loved for Stannis to keep that spot, but they assassinated his character the second he even considered burning his own daughter at the stake, which was the most un-Stannis thing anyone could have ever done.
Well, it's inconsistent with his TV portrayal where they play up his affection for Shireen - in the books it's Selyse who's soft on their daughter and Stannis who's more distant. I find it a bit easier to imagine the book version being persuaded that it's a "necessary sacrifice" to "do what needs to be done" regardless of personal feelings. Davos already had to smuggle his nephew Edric away to stop Stannis sacrificing him, and he's gone significantly further down the Rhllor cult initiation since then.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be his final betrayal of his own humanity and would seal his doom, but I can see it happening.
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a video on mereen would be a welcome change of pace to be honest
"when winds of winter is released," I think you mean "if." It is a pretty big if now, considering Martin's reluctance, his revealed feelings, and his age.
It wouldn’t surprise me if there was a conspiracy but I think it’s simply Gurm taking inspiration from the prelude to the wars of the Roses when Edward VI was taken prisoner after St Albans.
Essentially the king’s authority was not respected. It’s probably crazier in Westeros but I guess Aerys was really that despised.
*Sons of the Harpy shish-kebob Hizdahr*
Quinn: So yeah I'm pretty sure that guy was the Harpy
The GOT series on HBO was awful and anyone who thinks differently either did not read the books or is stupid.
I would love a video on Meereen
Please make a video about the Harpy!
Darklyns got butchered in HOTD
I would love another video on what’s going to happen to barriston
Already have one! Check out my video entitled “Predicting the first death of the winds of winter”
I wouldn’t put it pass Tywin to make Duskendale defiant if it suited his plan to crown Rhaegar as King.
We don't get to 'see' Tywin's logic/thinking behind his actions. We don't know what is going through his mind, but we get to see inside Cersei's reasoning. I would bet it wasn't much different for Tywin. He kills 300+ peeps for owing his dad money and talking smack. WtF-that is INSANE. Tywin wasn't even lord when he pulls that stunt-we get to see the results of what happens when Tywin loses his shit and with Cersei it is likely that we can understand his reasoning now. Tywin is effed up. Like how Roose is worse than his son, Ramsey, but he is better at hiding it from people who are looking.
Tywin/Dance is one of the best performances in the show because he didn't have to appear in the 5th, 6th, 7th or 8th seasons. They would have ruined him.
I wouldn't say that Tywin was behind the King's imprisonment. Chances are lord darklyn's wife who was from myr wanted aerys for some nefarious purpose, like birthing a king. This explains why she had her feminine parts torn out and was burned at stake after the sack. Also lord darklyn did not want arebellion, he wanted to lower taxes for ships making port for duskendale. We read this in a brienne chapter set in duskendale.
Perhaps if Tywin did a fit of reverse psychology, maybe Aerys would have listened. But I have been wrong before.
I LOVE Mereen and would love a video.
I think he’s not as smart as I originally thought from the show or at least not a powerful
Would love for you to make a "Who is the Harpy?" video!
Tywin did not plan the Defiance of Duskendale and he did not want Aerys dead. If Tywin wanted Aerys dead, he could have had Pycelle poison him whenever he wanted.
Please talk about the Mereen plot