Do you feel these cuts are similar or related to Jaime Merelo’s at all? Having read the treatise and seen your video on the Merelo cuts they do seem similar.
@@exohead1 yes, they are. these are the tajo mayor and reves mayor. Merelo uses these after his parries of 8th and 9th. The other cuts in his system are more wrist based and he doesn't have a section where the student is just doing circular cuts repeatedly as the Italian systems do. I think it was Jaime who said the saber should not be taught figuratively but with rather with a partner.
the italian school got criticised in its time for a lot of things. for using elbow moulinets all the time for seemingly no reason and opening the their arms up to quick snipes or telegraphing their attack; for leaning and extending forward in their lunges (dont do this, even in sport sabre i wouldnt want to risk getting thwacked on the back of the head); for not allowing thrusts and pointwork; for (sometimes) having weird, unnatural cutting mechanics... the british and the french really didnt like them lmao. oh, by the way, the explanation you get for how a lunge works in fencing is actually for fencing that uses sharp swords, like smallsword, sabre, rapier, spadroon... so you keep your back foot planted, which allows you to recover from the lunge, and therefore protect yourself from an after-blow or in the occasion that you miss. and just straightening your rear leg allows for a conservative lunge from which you can recover. sport fencing lunges are sort of different in that way. moulinets! yes! theyre the backbone of any sabre system. because you need rotation in real cuts, in sport sabre youre just trying to touch them. which isnt bad in my opinion, its fun, its just not reall cutting in that sense. on elbow moulinets though, if youre going to actually go out of your way to practice a realistic form of sabre/one handed cutting sword, heres a quick tip on when to use which type of moulinet (because the italian school kind of sucks in that regard): wrist moulinet for the opening strike, when being safe, when sniping at the opponent... elbow moulinet when you catch the opportunity for a powerful blow, and shoulder moulinet when youre absolutely 100% sure that you will hit your opponent and will NOT be hit in return, this rotation is very powerful, its the one that chops off limbs, but its the slowest, and easiest to see coming. make sure your default cuts are wrist moulinets, and the others are situational. because its not get hit first, and then hit the opponent. self-preservation is the most important thing. quick note: direct cuts with sharp swords are valid when done from a retracted position, and at more fragile targets like limbs and the head, a direct cut to the torso wont do a whole lot. probably just a flesh wound. its just too much material for a lighter cut to achieve a lot.
A lot of what you said is nonsense. With all lunges, recovery and parrying a possible afterblow is absolutely necessary. The forward leaning is mostly done on the upper body, with the hips and torso as the axis. That will ensure that your weight is still supported well in your front foot (your knee won't pass your toes). If this done well, it's extremly unlikely that you'll get hit in the back of the head unless your are letting your head and shoulders fall forward, with absolute disregard for proper distance management as well, which is not the proper form. You could argue that too forward of a leaning harms your recovery speed, but that's a whole different thing. You aren't required to always lunge like that. Often you only need to do a demi lunge, which requires no step. A big reason for the exageration of the lunge and the body leaning, both forward and backwards, is because it was used in the context for cavalry use. After Del Fratte's second book, the lean back was removed from the moulinelli exercises. Even though the cuts are done from the elbow, doesn't mean that in a bout situation you need to do the full range of motion, exposing your forearm. This is a mistake and is stressed out by all Radaellian authors. If you see modern students doing that in sparring, they are doing it wrong, unless it was a conscious move to void an attack and time the opponent on their recovery. The full range of motion is usually reserved for drill exercises. Arlow even mentions that a cut from the elbow with emphasis on speed and efficiency, even to the trained eye will seem indistinguishable from a wrist cut, but with the added benefits to power and control an elbow pivot with minimized wrist movement allows. Also comes very natural out of a chambered riposte. A lot of the criticisms of the italian school can be attributed to a lot of things, some valid and reasonable, others just false and driven by misguided ideas or nationalism. In the end, even the british and the austro-hungarian ended up adopting the radaellian method as their official system, after being schooled in their demonstrations. That's how much the italian school "kinda sucked". Which it really didn't.
It’s amazing to me how much power it sounds like you’re delivering
It's not that much. the soccer ball makes a lot of noise when hit
Do you feel these cuts are similar or related to Jaime Merelo’s at all? Having read the treatise and seen your video on the Merelo cuts they do seem similar.
@@exohead1 yes, they are. these are the tajo mayor and reves mayor. Merelo uses these after his parries of 8th and 9th. The other cuts in his system are more wrist based and he doesn't have a section where the student is just doing circular cuts repeatedly as the Italian systems do. I think it was Jaime who said the saber should not be taught figuratively but with rather with a partner.
esgrima xativa I appreciate your insight!
best footage ive ever seen on how these moulinet cuts are done, id love to see more, maybe horizontal and rising cuts as well?
Thanks! ok. I'll see what I can do.
the italian school got criticised in its time for a lot of things. for using elbow moulinets all the time for seemingly no reason and opening the their arms up to quick snipes or telegraphing their attack; for leaning and extending forward in their lunges (dont do this, even in sport sabre i wouldnt want to risk getting thwacked on the back of the head); for not allowing thrusts and pointwork; for (sometimes) having weird, unnatural cutting mechanics... the british and the french really didnt like them lmao.
oh, by the way, the explanation you get for how a lunge works in fencing is actually for fencing that uses sharp swords, like smallsword, sabre, rapier, spadroon... so you keep your back foot planted, which allows you to recover from the lunge, and therefore protect yourself from an after-blow or in the occasion that you miss. and just straightening your rear leg allows for a conservative lunge from which you can recover. sport fencing lunges are sort of different in that way.
moulinets! yes! theyre the backbone of any sabre system. because you need rotation in real cuts, in sport sabre youre just trying to touch them. which isnt bad in my opinion, its fun, its just not reall cutting in that sense.
on elbow moulinets though, if youre going to actually go out of your way to practice a realistic form of sabre/one handed cutting sword, heres a quick tip on when to use which type of moulinet (because the italian school kind of sucks in that regard): wrist moulinet for the opening strike, when being safe, when sniping at the opponent... elbow moulinet when you catch the opportunity for a powerful blow, and shoulder moulinet when youre absolutely 100% sure that you will hit your opponent and will NOT be hit in return, this rotation is very powerful, its the one that chops off limbs, but its the slowest, and easiest to see coming. make sure your default cuts are wrist moulinets, and the others are situational. because its not get hit first, and then hit the opponent. self-preservation is the most important thing.
quick note: direct cuts with sharp swords are valid when done from a retracted position, and at more fragile targets like limbs and the head, a direct cut to the torso wont do a whole lot. probably just a flesh wound. its just too much material for a lighter cut to achieve a lot.
A lot of what you said is nonsense. With all lunges, recovery and parrying a possible afterblow is absolutely necessary. The forward leaning is mostly done on the upper body, with the hips and torso as the axis. That will ensure that your weight is still supported well in your front foot (your knee won't pass your toes). If this done well, it's extremly unlikely that you'll get hit in the back of the head unless your are letting your head and shoulders fall forward, with absolute disregard for proper distance management as well, which is not the proper form. You could argue that too forward of a leaning harms your recovery speed, but that's a whole different thing. You aren't required to always lunge like that. Often you only need to do a demi lunge, which requires no step. A big reason for the exageration of the lunge and the body leaning, both forward and backwards, is because it was used in the context for cavalry use. After Del Fratte's second book, the lean back was removed from the moulinelli exercises.
Even though the cuts are done from the elbow, doesn't mean that in a bout situation you need to do the full range of motion, exposing your forearm. This is a mistake and is stressed out by all Radaellian authors. If you see modern students doing that in sparring, they are doing it wrong, unless it was a conscious move to void an attack and time the opponent on their recovery. The full range of motion is usually reserved for drill exercises. Arlow even mentions that a cut from the elbow with emphasis on speed and efficiency, even to the trained eye will seem indistinguishable from a wrist cut, but with the added benefits to power and control an elbow pivot with minimized wrist movement allows. Also comes very natural out of a chambered riposte.
A lot of the criticisms of the italian school can be attributed to a lot of things, some valid and reasonable, others just false and driven by misguided ideas or nationalism. In the end, even the british and the austro-hungarian ended up adopting the radaellian method as their official system, after being schooled in their demonstrations. That's how much the italian school "kinda sucked". Which it really didn't.