Sorry lithium battery are not Recycle at the end of their life maybe they could be used as storage battery’s. Lithium batteries are the greatest environmental disaster do you happen in the future. Newer design batteries with out lithium Should be recyclable
@@davidwright1752 older EV batteries are being used as stationary storage already. Battery recycling is also already being done by companies like Redwood. Why do you think batteries aren't being recycled? I would really love to know the source of your disinformation.
Actually, recycling burnt fuel is really easy, just put it back into the oil refineries. The problem comes with scraping that burnt fuel out of the atmosphere to achieve it.
Yes, shame that wasn't longer. Love to hear so much more from Dr Megan again and other recycling, upcycling, doughnut economical ventures like this. Be good to hear from Redwood Materials again. Keep up the imperatively important reporting Mr Bobby and Fully Charged! You'll be celebrated in the near future as one of the key institutions that shaped the most important rescue & forced evolution of human civilisation in all of history.
About cobalt catalyst for sulfur removal in oil refining HDS catalyst): most of these are on a gamma-alumina carrier and contain 3-6% cobalt and 8-15% molybdenum. Catalyst gets fouled during operation with carbon and heavy oil. Reactors are emptied every 6-20 months and the fouled catalyst can be regenerated off-site (in Europe these services are provided by for example Eurecat in France). The (hydro)carbon is carefully removed by heating to 300±50 °C on belt or slowly rotating furnaces. Typical loss of 10-15% during transport and regeneration (fines are discarded) would allow for 7 times regeneration. The actual number of regeneration cycles is however only 2-3 times, because of a change in crystal structure of the alumina carrier (change from gamma to alpha structure, losing >95% of is specific surface). I doubt that Nth cycle technology is able to extract all cobalt from waste desulphurisation catalyst. Waste catalyst is calcined to remove (hydro)carbon and reduce the risk of self combustion and this calcining process immobilizes the cobalt in an alumina-cobalt spinel. Even with chemical extraction the cobalt cannot be removed from these spinels. Only dissolving the entire spinel crystal in concentrated sulphuric acid can bring the cobalt into a dissolved state, but this will dissolve all aluminum as well. Several companies worldwide have tried to recover cobalt and molybdenum from waste HDS catalyst, but at best partial recovery has been achieved. One example is Gulf C&M in Freeport (TX), going bankrupt in 2016 and leaving huge ponds with hundreds of thousands tons of blue and green coloured HDS catalyst recycling residue. Question to Dr. O'Connor: have you ever tried to recover cobalt from waste HDS catalyst?
Sounds like a very exciting solution to the metal recycling problem and it sounds like they have it actually functioning. I know this was not an investor oriented show but I would have liked to get some idea on where Nth Cycle is on the spectrum from lab size proof of concept to commercial deployment of some functioning units. Thanks for the very interesting conversation.
@Doug Olson - You might want to listen to her appearance in Ep. 59 of the "Watt It Takes" podcast, hosted by Emily Kirsch. They go over more information of that type there since Kirsch is founder and CEO of Powerhouse, and managing partner of Powerhouse Ventures, which invests in cleantech, so naturally has an interest in and understanding of those areas beyond Robert's. It's not an investor focused podcast - it's more about the entrepreneurs who are making those businesses viable - but it has to look at what makes those companies viable, so there's a decent amount of business relevant information there too.
You definitely need to do a tour when they get their pilot project running. This is really interesting technology and I love the decentralized concept. The only question I have that I didnt hear (maybe I missed it) is what kind of power drawls are we talking here? Im guessing its a pretty high load for an extended period of time. Will these require their own Megapacks just to power them?
Fascinating The process sounds like it’s based on some fairly basic science, almost a dialysis of waste metals to result in refined waste’ ready for reuse
GREAT TOPIC Would love to see a video episode on this at some point going into how the technology works. At the moment the general impression we get is that "well some magic happens and..."
it sounds basically like they're electroplating a series of filter matrixes from a mixed input stream, each matrix being plated with a different metal.
Umm, I agree; when something sounds almost too good to be true..? I really want to believe that it is as good as it sounds, but I will need a lot more detail.
Hasn't fully charged done a visit of a german recycle plant close to Wolfsburg. In the EU the battery will go back to the recycling industry as it is already established from the tiniest watch battery to over AA to car batteries.
It is miles better but I think the problem with the circular economy idea is that capitalism will demand that the circle constantly Grows or goes faster...You still have the unsustainability of a system that demands infinite growth in order to 'work'.
Absolutely, heavy interests will moan that their revenues aren’t growing year on year… so I wouldn’t be surprised that the quality of EV parts and their batteries might decrease over time to maintain some financial gains…
Honestly, this is a decent criticism of EVs. I absolutely buy the arguments of those against EVs if they're just anti car in general Nothing we do industrially as a species, is good for the environment. What we change to is merely "better" for the environment. The good news is that the Earth can at least handle *some* destruction and have biodiversity, including allowing the the survival of the human species but not to the level we've mistreated it. The Earth would absolutely recover without us, but maybe not necessarily with us continuing to hurt the planet.
Start your list of questions: Can Nth Cycle set up shop at a Coal Powerplant tailing disposal site and extract all sorts of nasties? Preferably before a 1,000 year flood distributes all that poison down hundreds of miles of waterway.
It would be novel and good to extract the plating finishes but that may be impossible; to 'un plate' say nickel, chromium, zinc etc from iron based products like steel. Probably too hard ! Straight un-mixed metals are straightforward to reclaim, but plated products are tricky, aren't they?
Well Rosies excellent youtube channel (the episode on storage - pump it up when you don't need it) covers just how much storage will be needed for 100% renewables. Since the sun doesn't shine at night and on cloudy days, and wind doesn't always blow, the estimate for storage needed is anywhere from 1000terrawatt hours (1 petawatt) up to 10k terrawatt hours (10 petawatts). Currently the world has some 10 terrawatt hours (mostly pumped hydro) grid battery storage is 34gw so something like 500x the current amount of storage is needed. It is a long way to go. (given the total energy use - not just electricity generation, but heating, cooling, transport and industrial (steel, concrete), ammonia and other chemical - wind is some 2.2% and solar 1.1% the main part of renewables is hydro. and the rest some 80% is fossil I am intrigued by the fact that Rosie believes off river pumped hydro is the best solution. ruclips.net/video/SuZ3nqzC6a0/видео.html
This is a very interesting episode. Thank you. Can this approach be used to reduce the water contamination problems associated with copper nickel sulfide mining? Or is the acid based extraction of metals from ore still required? What waste water treatment is required for the water used in these oyster modules? Can the water be cycled through the oysters multiple times?
Cut your bangs shorter so we can see your eyes and you will be prefect. Smart, focused, well spoken and great smile and laugh. It just drives my nervous system nuts when bangs move with each eye blink. Not sure how you can stand it. Great work...
Really valuable episode that one. I hope this company can roll out their systems at scale. I would have liked Robert to ask what the typical waste products (completely metal free?) following a typical EV battery recycling process are, with a bit of context against existing processes. It would be wonderful to be armed with that information for the next online argument.
Not trying to be negative, I really hope this tech becomes available at scale. But what about the water use? What is the use of fresh water compared to the other types of recycling already in use. Just a talking point I would have liked to have heard. Good job continuing to bring us new innovations!
First question is do we need it? What will it do for us? Is there an alternative? Too easy to make "impulse" decisions to buy a new shiny object that we think will make us happy whilst the loss of Natural Resources to make that object are never thought about!
there is another area that has been largely overlooked, that is re-using the lithium batteries by changing the liquid that is used in them. There are a couple of papers that showed the sei layer could be broken down by injecting some components of the soluton used in lithium batteries. Then a new sei layer formed and the battery capacity back to new. I've never heard anyone discuss it. The graphite layer has been the 'weakest link '( it can delmaninate over time), but with improvements in that area it might be very worthwhile to have cells designed such that that can be easily injected with suitable solution to break down and remove the old sei layer.
Without recycling electric cars will be an environmental disaster. The cost of recycling should be part of the purchase cost. That would have been the responsible approach but as usual we are just hoping it will sort itself out.
My biggest question on this is: What is the waste product after the extraction has taken place? Is the water that is used able to be reused again? How many times can the the "Filters" be used and can they be 'cleaned' for re-use? Is there any 'waste' that IS "WASTE" and how can it be disposed of? With any "Industrial" process these will be some form of waste material. With the fertiliser industry it is CO2 that is needed in food processing and the supply chain for that. With Bio-digestion plants producing gas, the waste product is effectively Compost. I hope whatever is left after this process is also useable. Certainly it will be less in volume than what is currently the case, but also it will be found in places perhaps less able to handle it. I really want to see this take off, but also wonder what effects it would have, long term.
Well, they are placing themselves at a step where normally, as Robert said, the scrap metal would be shipped abroad using fossile fuel burning boats to “supposedly” be recycled, but as we know tend to just be dumped… So their collection of metals at this particular stage can only be better than the current situation.
@@Nikoo033 Absolutely right. I just wish nature did not have this habit of throwing up 'unexpected, unforeseen, consequenses' In my youth I was a great fan of Nuclear Power: Clean, long lasting Etc. Etc. Even went on a tour of Sizewell A, with a detour on the bus back to the visitor centre, of the foundations of Sizewell B. (Now they are on to "C." and those previous years have passed in a flash). We now know the downside of all that lovely clean power: Where to store the waste? With Chernobil we have seen the consequences of Human Nature (Shortcuts in the building of the reactor), and Human Error in running one. With Fukushima we have been taught what Nature can do with all the safeguards that we have put in place. Life has taught me that nature usually finds the things that we thought we had covered. Then teaches us a lesson! This process is far better than what is used at present. But it will throw up some unexpected results, of that I am sure.
Seriously, is it possible to use your system to extract metals from human sewerage? My understanding is that human waste is rich in many precious metals, and it's already collected and readily available for "recycling".
@@alanhat5252 Thanks. The balance to the concentration component would be that it's such low-hanging fruit; just another step in the treatment process.
Hydrogen when “burnt” becomes water whilst releasing heat. ( watts/ kilowatts/ MW) . 1kg of. H = 27kwh. Waste product is 9kg h20. Getting that 60 kWh to produce 1kg h is the bug bear to economists but the spin offs from that very inefficient process is carbon removal, food production, rare earth material production. Lots of different useful products all from carbon negative source i.e. profitable. The companies are out there right now to deliver this.
Hydrogen is by and large generated from methane steam reforming and the methane typically comes from oil wells or franking rigs that leak metric tons of methane into the atmosphere... which is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. The steam reforming process burns even more methane to produce the steam. Its a ponzy scheme to sell more methane and its absolutely 100% NOT carbon neutral or eco or green.
Hydrogen when burnt produces more than water. If burnt in pure oxygen yes. But if burnt in air there is nearly 20% Nitrogen ... so there are nasty nitrogen oxides to remove just like with a diesel engine.
Yeah, and they are made in the same factories in China as the modern Craftsman and Dewalt tools, and whatever it is Home Depot calls their house brand tools. Source: seriously just look at them all next to each other some time. Same tools, different color plastic/rubber.
True. There are some pictures on their website and they are asking for prospective clients to send them samples of their waste so that they can show what they can do. It's certainly at early stages but they've secured funding, including from US government so fingers crossed.
Her over reliance on scientific and business jargon makes her language a head ache to follow even when we understand it. Robert struggled at times to get her to speak in normal English. It’s not capex opex. It’s capital expenses. Operating expenses. It’s not ferrous. It’s Iron. Jargon for the sake of jargon.
Another great informative video! Thanks for putting this information out there! Maybe the tailings ponds in Fort McMurry would be a prime location! They are such a massive toxic eyesore! An eyesore with tonnes of heavy metals! Keep smiling folks!
thats great tech, i hope it will find its way to all scrapyards... i had some talks to my colleagues in the last few days, it is aounding how little they know about: recycling, battery tech, energy usage, economy, etc... i also don't know the details, but i try to keep up to date. at least i have heard of these things. They just repeat the headlines from some newspapers... over&over again
There is enough money in EWaste that there is a cottage industry of home hobby smelters who take PCB's and recycle them for the high value non-ferrus materials.
Just an observation - but Robert drinking from a plastic water bottle when hosting a recycling podcast was quite ironic.. Not sure if that was planned to fuel the comments.. if so.. well done.. :)
Plastic isn't as big a problem as single-use plastics. If you have a durable plastic item that you use for decades that's much less problematic than plastic you use once and throw away.
@@blahdelablah 😂😂😂😂😂 I deduce the term "etiquette" as is mistifying to you as is the term "free speech". I presume, until you look it up that is, that the term "sycophant" is yet another puzzle.
@@t1n4444 Ooh look you like to use big words too, how nice. We're facing a series of massive life changing catastrophes and your contribution is to suggest using a glass tumbler instead of a plastic bottle, I'm glad you're here to keep us focused on what is important.
Capital Expenditure and Operational Expenditure essentially the cost of the hardware and facilities and the cost of running day to day. Less Americanisms and more Business Speak.
It's much more efficient to repair and repurpose electronic devices rather than grind the PCB boards, then extract the precious metals and fiberglass to recycle them.
The point is surely that in order for your statement to be true in a financially meaningful way, you'd have to find a source of thousands of the same old device with the same old circuitry that was almost working but needed the same kind of repair. Then you'd need to find a way to get those devices all sent to one place to be fixed and/or repurposed. And you'd need a target product that people want, i.e. has the latest tech. I guess there might be some specialised industries where all those circuit boards end up in one place, like a cable company that keeps all the customer returned hardware when they upgrade their set top boxes. But that's quite a niche example, and the technology would have moved on so much after 10-15 years of owning a set top box that I can't imagine there'd be much use for those old boards, let alone the capacitors and transistors that might be due to fail soon. Practically speaking, the best idea is probably to automate the desoldering (easy enough, just add heat) and part removal (not so easy with screws etc.) then put each part in separate bins for recycling or reuse. Ultimately, whet it comes to recycling, grinding up stuff is probably a lot more efficient because it can be applied to so many varied products without needing a whole understanding of how to cleanly disassemble stuff. Maybe when Wall-E type robots are ubiquitous, much more bespoke repurposing might be achievable?
So how much electric power required? Would think that in Canada Quebec and British Columbia both have a lot of hydro power. Quebec also has lithium mines now coming on line. Both those places also have abundant water... maybe ask China how important that particular commodity is turning out to be.
You should investigate the quantity of grid (electrical) energy required to refine sufficient fuel to move a fleet of 10000 ICE vehicles 10,000 miles. Then look at the distance that same energy would move an equivalent EV fleet. It's about the same..... But no fuel burnt in the vehicle. . As for China, when your (and my) country has repatriated all industry "farmed out" to China, bringing the energy requirement "home" with it, then "we" in can criticise China (no doubt *their* pollution would be greatly reduced?) . Have you checked the "pollution per head capita" figures? I haven't recently but I know that a couple of years ago, even with that imported industry, China was running at about the same level per head as the Ukt and better that half the CO2 per head of the US and Canada. . Real data.
@@rogerstarkey5390 RS, if I could make so bold your comment was slightly out of context ref the material in the episode. Try not to go off at tangent. That said I do detect the glimmerings of sentience in your recent posts. I consider my tutoring and mentoring a success. Well done me.
I’m not entirely clear how this works for a mixed source of scrap. Can it extract say lithium and cobalt at the same time or does it do one pass for the lithium and than later on re route the remaining waste back through, after maker some adjustments, to then extract the cobalt?
Yeah I think it takes multiple passes.... just like all other methods of metals extraction. So thats not really a drawlback, as its the industry standard. But it does mean that the system can be tailored for a specific metal. A scrap yard that gets tons of wiring may choose to use this to get just the copper for instance.
At 11:08 she says that they can have several different filters in series, each with an electrical potential tailored to a different nonferrous metal. Sounds like it might be one pass for many different metals.
I noticed that Dr Megan O'Connor said at 15:36, that people pay "per pound". Just wondering, assuming that she'd ever see this comment: "As a scientist, do you normally think in metric or traditional US units?" BTW: This is all truly amazing & I'm copying it on all my social media.
mainly commenting to get notified of answers but from what I've seen Americans use SI units in the laboratory & pounds outside, just as UK scientists did in the 1970s
@@alanhat5252 But kg are acceptable US measurements too, so why not use those? Also, the video is international, why should the rest of the world have to be dragged backwards to accommodate archaic US units?
So what happens to the light metals like lithium that react with water? Was that the bit of the video with technical difficulties. I've heard of a university powdering ewaste and batteries, then using static electricity to separate the metals in a dry environment. I wonder how efficient that is compared to using a current in water?
Exciting technology. It would have been great if she could have touched on whether their process is sensitive to being poisoned by contaminants that may be in the recycling stream. One thing that is simpler about mining is that the composition of the ore is well understood, whereas a junk yard could contain most elements in the periodic table. Also, quality control of the end product would be a concern. A battery manufacturer requires their source materials to be within a very tight specification. If the material is coming from many small companies, how would one be assured that the purity is within spec. Any contamination would be hugely detrimental downstream.
@@rogerstarkey5390 I thought that too, but can't understand how different metals could be separated. This is my point we are just guessing. I wish he'd asked the good Dr. how it worked.
Hmm, perhaps you have yet to recognise the term "patent"? For all we know the good Doctor is not permitted to go beyond descriptions of basic science when dealing with the Press?
Rather a good episode, and interesting to note the recycling of "old" EV batteries into static home back up systems is no longer considered as "sensible" as once portrayed. With reference to sources of metals there was no mention of "mining" decades old landfill sites. Must be a lot of old domestic products lurking under the soil full of copper and silver and gold ready for recycling. And the thousands of miles/tons of copper conductors lying in cable ducts, against waiting for recycling too. Now, is it just me but this recycling thing involving water and electricity and instant recycling has been with us for some time. I refer you to the hydrogen fuel cell. Hydrogen is converted back to water by the introduction of oxygen in the air. Now that R&D has introduced catalysts other than platinum (granted not so efficient, as yet ...) then hydrogen gas fuel cells will become cheaper as research evolves.
Depends what is the aim for hydrogen. I’ll simply copy and paste something I have posted previously about hydrogen: Hydrogen has certainly its place to power heavy duty machineries for which the energy density of current batteries could be insufficient. But when people talk about hydrogen as a great solution to store energy for example, I feel that they tend to omit the energy cost of such a thing in itself. You need 44 kWh of electricity (let’s say from renewables) to produce 1 kg of hydrogen from water and air. For perspective, that’s about 5 days of electricity usage by a UK household on average… Then, you need 4 kWh of electricity per kg of H2 to compress it for storage, or at least 10 kWh per kg of H2 to liquefy it. Basically, since H2 has an energy density of 34 kWh/kg, its production from renewable electricity leads to a 23% loss in conversion. And converting 1 kg of H2 into a state compatible with its storage would use the equivalent of 10%-30% of the energy contained in that very same kg of H2. Not even mentioning the electricity used to maintain it in that storage-compatible state and transport it… So from production to storage of 1 kg of H2, you are already exhausting the equivalent of 30%-40% of the renewable energy that you used to make it…
@@Nikoo033 😂😂😂😂😂😂 You are missing the point entirely. You, and far, far too many others keep on and on about this cost and efficiency thing. All of us have read similar ref the costings etc. Allow me to repeat yet again ... the idea is to clean up the atmosphere as in to vastly reduce the greenhouse gases leading to the build up of heat in our atmosphere. This heat will, in time, melt all the global ice, allow sea levels to rise, inundate the coastal regions and force people to move to higher ground and compete with space required to feed the population. It's that or build floating habitations and learning to like fish and seaweeds. So, if you consider electricity would be expensive today then the cost of rehousing the population and grow crops to feed "us" will be a lot more "tomorrow". We might decide meat products require more space than can be provided. Try to think outside the box instead of regurgitating stuff you picked up at uni or similar. You shouldn't forget "context" either.
@@t1n4444 just for information, burning H2 to produce energy releases water in gas form. This might come to a surprise to you, but water vapour is… a green house gas 😅
"Can't recycle fuel you've burned, but you can recycle spent batteries" is something I have to repeat more often than I should have to.
I'm often surprised that people still don't get all this, but I guess I have a huge bias towards this kind of content 😊
Sorry lithium battery are not Recycle at the end of their life maybe they could be used as storage battery’s. Lithium batteries are the greatest environmental disaster do you happen in the future. Newer design batteries with out lithium Should be recyclable
@@davidwright1752 older EV batteries are being used as stationary storage already. Battery recycling is also already being done by companies like Redwood. Why do you think batteries aren't being recycled? I would really love to know the source of your disinformation.
Actually, recycling burnt fuel is really easy, just put it back into the oil refineries.
The problem comes with scraping that burnt fuel out of the atmosphere to achieve it.
Love this and never thought about it in that context
Wow I hope you can take us on a tour of a Nth Cycle facility, would love to learn more about their process.
I loved junk yard wars!! As a kid it fueled my engineering desires. Never made the connection you were a host of it.
Yes, shame that wasn't longer. Love to hear so much more from Dr Megan again and other recycling, upcycling, doughnut economical ventures like this. Be good to hear from Redwood Materials again.
Keep up the imperatively important reporting Mr Bobby and Fully Charged!
You'll be celebrated in the near future as one of the key institutions that shaped the most important rescue & forced evolution of human civilisation in all of history.
Brilliant! And so encouraging to hear about these advances! High five to Megan! 🖐
Love this description of filtering out metal like a water filter Brilliant
About cobalt catalyst for sulfur removal in oil refining HDS catalyst): most of these are on a gamma-alumina carrier and contain 3-6% cobalt and 8-15% molybdenum. Catalyst gets fouled during operation with carbon and heavy oil. Reactors are emptied every 6-20 months and the fouled catalyst can be regenerated off-site (in Europe these services are provided by for example Eurecat in France). The (hydro)carbon is carefully removed by heating to 300±50 °C on belt or slowly rotating furnaces. Typical loss of 10-15% during transport and regeneration (fines are discarded) would allow for 7 times regeneration. The actual number of regeneration cycles is however only 2-3 times, because of a change in crystal structure of the alumina carrier (change from gamma to alpha structure, losing >95% of is specific surface).
I doubt that Nth cycle technology is able to extract all cobalt from waste desulphurisation catalyst. Waste catalyst is calcined to remove (hydro)carbon and reduce the risk of self combustion and this calcining process immobilizes the cobalt in an alumina-cobalt spinel. Even with chemical extraction the cobalt cannot be removed from these spinels. Only dissolving the entire spinel crystal in concentrated sulphuric acid can bring the cobalt into a dissolved state, but this will dissolve all aluminum as well. Several companies worldwide have tried to recover cobalt and molybdenum from waste HDS catalyst, but at best partial recovery has been achieved. One example is Gulf C&M in Freeport (TX), going bankrupt in 2016 and leaving huge ponds with hundreds of thousands tons of blue and green coloured HDS catalyst recycling residue.
Question to Dr. O'Connor: have you ever tried to recover cobalt from waste HDS catalyst?
I like the new calm Robert Llewelyn over angry short tempered version. Stay Zen Robert. 😅😅😊
Great episode - if you succeed in getting Dr Megan onto one of your North American Live shows, please put a recording of her on your RUclips channel.
Sounds like a very exciting solution to the metal recycling problem and it sounds like they have it actually functioning. I know this was not an investor oriented show but I would have liked to get some idea on where Nth Cycle is on the spectrum from lab size proof of concept to commercial deployment of some functioning units. Thanks for the very interesting conversation.
@Doug Olson - You might want to listen to her appearance in Ep. 59 of the "Watt It Takes" podcast, hosted by Emily Kirsch. They go over more information of that type there since Kirsch is founder and CEO of Powerhouse, and managing partner of Powerhouse Ventures, which invests in cleantech, so naturally has an interest in and understanding of those areas beyond Robert's. It's not an investor focused podcast - it's more about the entrepreneurs who are making those businesses viable - but it has to look at what makes those companies viable, so there's a decent amount of business relevant information there too.
You definitely need to do a tour when they get their pilot project running. This is really interesting technology and I love the decentralized concept. The only question I have that I didnt hear (maybe I missed it) is what kind of power drawls are we talking here? Im guessing its a pretty high load for an extended period of time. Will these require their own Megapacks just to power them?
Fascinating
The process sounds like it’s based on some fairly basic science, almost a dialysis of waste metals to result in refined waste’ ready for reuse
GREAT TOPIC
Would love to see a video episode on this at some point going into how the technology works. At the moment the general impression we get is that "well some magic happens and..."
it sounds basically like they're electroplating a series of filter matrixes from a mixed input stream, each matrix being plated with a different metal.
Umm, I agree; when something sounds almost too good to be true..? I really want to believe that it is as good as it sounds, but I will need a lot more detail.
Hasn't fully charged done a visit of a german recycle plant close to Wolfsburg.
In the EU the battery will go back to the recycling industry as it is already established from the tiniest watch battery to over AA to car batteries.
It is miles better but I think the problem with the circular economy idea is that capitalism will demand that the circle constantly Grows or goes faster...You still have the unsustainability of a system that demands infinite growth in order to 'work'.
Absolutely, heavy interests will moan that their revenues aren’t growing year on year… so I wouldn’t be surprised that the quality of EV parts and their batteries might decrease over time to maintain some financial gains…
Honestly, this is a decent criticism of EVs. I absolutely buy the arguments of those against EVs if they're just anti car in general
Nothing we do industrially as a species, is good for the environment. What we change to is merely "better" for the environment.
The good news is that the Earth can at least handle *some* destruction and have biodiversity, including allowing the the survival of the human species but not to the level we've mistreated it.
The Earth would absolutely recover without us, but maybe not necessarily with us continuing to hurt the planet.
Imagine someone like O'Connor running a federal agency... under an administration like FDR/Wallace... 😉
I’m very impressed with this young lady. She has the bulls by the horns on this project. Great interview!!
It's a similar philosophy as Tesla planning to build the battery factory next to the material mine.
This would be a useful addition to the system.
Start your list of questions:
Can Nth Cycle set up shop at a Coal Powerplant tailing disposal site and extract all sorts of nasties?
Preferably before a 1,000 year flood distributes all that poison down hundreds of miles of waterway.
Great interview and very informative
You are looking very well Robert! 🏆👊
That's what sunlight derived vitamin D, that you can't get much of in the UK, does for you!
Spent his UK winter in the Australian summer ... knowing he will come back home and have another summer! That's the life!
Great interview. Sounds like a wonderful company doing great work. Wanna invest, NGL
New mining tech....agro-mining is 85% more efficient, And provides a much purer form.
Would you consider investing in a healthcare e-commerce platform or a specific healthcare product?
Dr O'Connor is my hero... l'd buttle for her for free! Great show - so very interesting and positive. Thanks
It would be novel and good to extract the plating finishes but that may be impossible; to 'un plate' say nickel, chromium, zinc etc from iron based products like steel. Probably too hard ! Straight un-mixed metals are straightforward to reclaim, but plated products are tricky, aren't they?
Well Rosies excellent youtube channel (the episode on storage - pump it up when you don't need it) covers just how much storage will be needed for 100% renewables.
Since the sun doesn't shine at night and on cloudy days, and wind doesn't always blow, the estimate for storage needed is anywhere from 1000terrawatt hours (1 petawatt) up to 10k terrawatt hours (10 petawatts). Currently the world has some 10 terrawatt hours (mostly pumped hydro) grid battery storage is 34gw so something like 500x the current amount of storage is needed.
It is a long way to go.
(given the total energy use - not just electricity generation, but heating, cooling, transport and industrial (steel, concrete), ammonia and other chemical - wind is some 2.2% and solar 1.1% the main part of renewables is hydro. and the rest some 80% is fossil
I am intrigued by the fact that Rosie believes off river pumped hydro is the best solution. ruclips.net/video/SuZ3nqzC6a0/видео.html
This is a very interesting episode. Thank you.
Can this approach be used to reduce the water contamination problems associated with copper nickel sulfide mining? Or is the acid based extraction of metals from ore still required?
What waste water treatment is required for the water used in these oyster modules? Can the water be cycled through the oysters multiple times?
Cut your bangs shorter so we can see your eyes and you will be prefect.
Smart, focused, well spoken and great smile and laugh.
It just drives my nervous system nuts when bangs move with each eye blink.
Not sure how you can stand it.
Great work...
Really valuable episode that one. I hope this company can roll out their systems at scale. I would have liked Robert to ask what the typical waste products (completely metal free?) following a typical EV battery recycling process are, with a bit of context against existing processes. It would be wonderful to be armed with that information for the next online argument.
Very interesting interview except Dr Megan focus was somewhere on the wall and brought bit of distraction while watching.
Not trying to be negative, I really hope this tech becomes available at scale. But what about the water use? What is the use of fresh water compared to the other types of recycling already in use. Just a talking point I would have liked to have heard. Good job continuing to bring us new innovations!
First question is do we need it? What will it do for us? Is there an alternative? Too easy to make "impulse" decisions to buy a new shiny object that we think will make us happy whilst the loss of Natural Resources to make that object are never thought about!
there is another area that has been largely overlooked, that is re-using the lithium batteries by changing the liquid that is used in them.
There are a couple of papers that showed the sei layer could be broken down by injecting some components of the soluton used in lithium batteries.
Then a new sei layer formed and the battery capacity back to new.
I've never heard anyone discuss it.
The graphite layer has been the 'weakest link '( it can delmaninate over time), but with improvements in that area it might be very worthwhile to have cells designed such that that can be easily injected with suitable solution to break down and remove the old sei layer.
Without recycling electric cars will be an environmental disaster. The cost of recycling should be part of the purchase cost. That would have been the responsible approach but as usual we are just hoping it will sort itself out.
Can confirm. The first time I saw you, it was a veritable scrapyard war!
I keep having to explain to ( Geoff Buys Cars )
Wondering if uranium ore could be reclaimed from nuclear waste???
Deglobalisation = less bunker fuel. Hooray!
I hope you ask her. When can she scale her technology To make it widely.
Is it me or does Robert look increasingly like Walter White? 😆
My biggest question on this is: What is the waste product after the extraction has taken place?
Is the water that is used able to be reused again?
How many times can the the "Filters" be used and can they be 'cleaned' for re-use?
Is there any 'waste' that IS "WASTE" and how can it be disposed of?
With any "Industrial" process these will be some form of waste material. With the fertiliser industry it is CO2 that is needed in food processing and the supply chain for that. With Bio-digestion plants producing gas, the waste product is effectively Compost. I hope whatever is left after this process is also useable. Certainly it will be less in volume than what is currently the case, but also it will be found in places perhaps less able to handle it.
I really want to see this take off, but also wonder what effects it would have, long term.
Well, they are placing themselves at a step where normally, as Robert said, the scrap metal would be shipped abroad using fossile fuel burning boats to “supposedly” be recycled, but as we know tend to just be dumped… So their collection of metals at this particular stage can only be better than the current situation.
@@Nikoo033 Absolutely right. I just wish nature did not have this habit of throwing up 'unexpected, unforeseen, consequenses'
In my youth I was a great fan of Nuclear Power: Clean, long lasting Etc. Etc. Even went on a tour of Sizewell A, with a detour on the bus back to the visitor centre, of the foundations of Sizewell B. (Now they are on to "C." and those previous years have passed in a flash).
We now know the downside of all that lovely clean power: Where to store the waste?
With Chernobil we have seen the consequences of Human Nature (Shortcuts in the building of the reactor), and Human Error in running one.
With Fukushima we have been taught what Nature can do with all the safeguards that we have put in place.
Life has taught me that nature usually finds the things that we thought we had covered. Then teaches us a lesson!
This process is far better than what is used at present. But it will throw up some unexpected results, of that I am sure.
@@coniow you’re absolutely right. 👍🏻
I have been enjoyed, so thank you for delivering.
Seriously, is it possible to use your system to extract metals from human sewerage? My understanding is that human waste is rich in many precious metals, and it's already collected and readily available for "recycling".
Concentration makes a big difference to feasibility, it would be interesting to see your question answered.
@@alanhat5252 Thanks. The balance to the concentration component would be that it's such low-hanging fruit; just another step in the treatment process.
Urban Mining, this is the way
Hydrogen when “burnt” becomes water whilst releasing heat. ( watts/ kilowatts/ MW) . 1kg of. H = 27kwh. Waste product is 9kg h20. Getting that 60 kWh to produce 1kg h is the bug bear to economists but the spin offs from that very inefficient process is carbon removal, food production, rare earth material production. Lots of different useful products all from carbon negative source i.e. profitable. The companies are out there right now to deliver this.
Hydrogen is by and large generated from methane steam reforming and the methane typically comes from oil wells or franking rigs that leak metric tons of methane into the atmosphere... which is a much more powerful greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide. The steam reforming process burns even more methane to produce the steam. Its a ponzy scheme to sell more methane and its absolutely 100% NOT carbon neutral or eco or green.
Hydrogen when burnt produces more than water. If burnt in pure oxygen yes. But if burnt in air there is nearly 20% Nitrogen ... so there are nasty nitrogen oxides to remove just like with a diesel engine.
@@MrAdopado adblue- urea/clears the nox
@@terryputson5542 Yes ... but not all of it.
Lowes has a line of tools named Kobalt. Cobalt in batteries wasn't the first evil in the chain of mining.
Yeah, and they are made in the same factories in China as the modern Craftsman and Dewalt tools, and whatever it is Home Depot calls their house brand tools. Source: seriously just look at them all next to each other some time. Same tools, different color plastic/rubber.
Fantastic content. BUT...Something more serious is that you said MATH, not MATHS.. You may struggle to be allowed back in the UK.. 🤣🤣
When do they plan on having an operational system installed and functioning. Lots of vaporware out there :-)
True. There are some pictures on their website and they are asking for prospective clients to send them samples of their waste so that they can show what they can do. It's certainly at early stages but they've secured funding, including from US government so fingers crossed.
I would love to see a tour of such a system!
Her over reliance on scientific and business jargon makes her language a head ache to follow even when we understand it. Robert struggled at times to get her to speak in normal English. It’s not capex opex. It’s capital expenses. Operating expenses. It’s not ferrous. It’s Iron. Jargon for the sake of jargon.
Design waste out!! Doughnut economics ànd circular economy and solar punk🥰🥰🥰
Another great informative video!
Thanks for putting this information out there!
Maybe the tailings ponds in Fort McMurry
would be a prime location!
They are such a massive toxic eyesore!
An eyesore with tonnes of heavy metals!
Keep smiling folks!
I had the impression that Megan was a closet "Scrap Heap" (Junkyard") fan?
thats great tech, i hope it will find its way to all scrapyards...
i had some talks to my colleagues in the last few days, it is aounding how little they know about: recycling, battery tech, energy usage, economy, etc... i also don't know the details, but i try to keep up to date. at least i have heard of these things. They just repeat the headlines from some newspapers... over&over again
I get so encouraged when I listen to projects like this up and coming. Thank you Robert for bringing this.
There is enough money in EWaste that there is a cottage industry of home hobby smelters who take PCB's and recycle them for the high value non-ferrus materials.
elon needs to hire this woman now...
Just an observation - but Robert drinking from a plastic water bottle when hosting a recycling podcast was quite ironic.. Not sure if that was planned to fuel the comments.. if so.. well done.. :)
Plastic isn't as big a problem as single-use plastics. If you have a durable plastic item that you use for decades that's much less problematic than plastic you use once and throw away.
Could have used a glass or tumbler.
Slightly more "elegant" than swigging from a bottle "on-air".
@@t1n4444 You need to grow up.
@@blahdelablah
😂😂😂😂😂
I deduce the term "etiquette" as is mistifying to you as is the term "free speech".
I presume, until you look it up that is, that the term "sycophant" is yet another puzzle.
@@t1n4444 Ooh look you like to use big words too, how nice. We're facing a series of massive life changing catastrophes and your contribution is to suggest using a glass tumbler instead of a plastic bottle, I'm glad you're here to keep us focused on what is important.
Great guest. Host please talk less…
How can I buy a module?
Are toxic tailing dams on the radar for this process?
Hopefully consuming them rather than creating them!
Doc Megan used a couple of phrases I've never heard of - CapEx and OpEx. What are they, over and above Americanisms?
"Annoyingly clever" is a great complement! It is the equivalent of saying to Hawkins, Einstein, Durac or Tesla etc "I wish I'd thought of that".
Capital Expenditure and Operational Expenditure essentially the cost of the hardware and facilities and the cost of running day to day. Less Americanisms and more Business Speak.
@@0WaxMan0 Many thanks!
Very informative, phrases well worth knowing.
Thank you
I watched scrapheap challenge and Junkyard wars years ago.
What is the recovery speed? How fast can the materials be recovered?
It's much more efficient to repair and repurpose electronic devices rather than grind the PCB boards, then extract the precious metals and fiberglass to recycle them.
The point is surely that in order for your statement to be true in a financially meaningful way, you'd have to find a source of thousands of the same old device with the same old circuitry that was almost working but needed the same kind of repair. Then you'd need to find a way to get those devices all sent to one place to be fixed and/or repurposed. And you'd need a target product that people want, i.e. has the latest tech.
I guess there might be some specialised industries where all those circuit boards end up in one place, like a cable company that keeps all the customer returned hardware when they upgrade their set top boxes. But that's quite a niche example, and the technology would have moved on so much after 10-15 years of owning a set top box that I can't imagine there'd be much use for those old boards, let alone the capacitors and transistors that might be due to fail soon.
Practically speaking, the best idea is probably to automate the desoldering (easy enough, just add heat) and part removal (not so easy with screws etc.) then put each part in separate bins for recycling or reuse.
Ultimately, whet it comes to recycling, grinding up stuff is probably a lot more efficient because it can be applied to so many varied products without needing a whole understanding of how to cleanly disassemble stuff.
Maybe when Wall-E type robots are ubiquitous, much more bespoke repurposing might be achievable?
Love it!! Every second of it!! Super informatife
Very inspiring. But Robert could you show what this facility looks like and how it works ?
I dont think they have a plant running yet, they seem to be seeking investment. Also, hes currently in Australia and they are in Boston. 🤣
Marvelously brilliant 👍👍
Really interesting tech, would love to see more.
So how much electric power required? Would think that in Canada Quebec and British Columbia both have a lot of hydro power. Quebec also has lithium mines now coming on line. Both those places also have abundant water... maybe ask China how important that particular commodity is turning out to be.
You should investigate the quantity of grid (electrical) energy required to refine sufficient fuel to move a fleet of 10000 ICE vehicles 10,000 miles.
Then look at the distance that same energy would move an equivalent EV fleet.
It's about the same..... But no fuel burnt in the vehicle.
.
As for China, when your (and my) country has repatriated all industry "farmed out" to China, bringing the energy requirement "home" with it, then "we" in can criticise China (no doubt *their* pollution would be greatly reduced?)
.
Have you checked the "pollution per head capita" figures?
I haven't recently but I know that a couple of years ago, even with that imported industry, China was running at about the same level per head as the Ukt and better that half the CO2 per head of the US and Canada.
.
Real data.
@@rogerstarkey5390
RS, if I could make so bold your comment was slightly out of context ref the material in the episode.
Try not to go off at tangent.
That said I do detect the glimmerings of sentience in your recent posts.
I consider my tutoring and mentoring a success.
Well done me.
Is that where the term nefarious comes?😂
#ElectrifyEverything and Recycle Battery's
I’m not entirely clear how this works for a mixed source of scrap. Can it extract say lithium and cobalt at the same time or does it do one pass for the lithium and than later on re route the remaining waste back through, after maker some adjustments, to then extract the cobalt?
Yeah I think it takes multiple passes.... just like all other methods of metals extraction. So thats not really a drawlback, as its the industry standard. But it does mean that the system can be tailored for a specific metal. A scrap yard that gets tons of wiring may choose to use this to get just the copper for instance.
At 11:08 she says that they can have several different filters in series, each with an electrical potential tailored to a different nonferrous metal. Sounds like it might be one pass for many different metals.
Great podcast and nice to have some eye candy included , Megan is sweet too .🤣😅
If there's ever an IPO, I'm in.
I noticed that Dr Megan O'Connor said at 15:36, that people pay "per pound". Just wondering, assuming that she'd ever see this comment: "As a scientist, do you normally think in metric or traditional US units?" BTW: This is all truly amazing & I'm copying it on all my social media.
mainly commenting to get notified of answers but from what I've seen Americans use SI units in the laboratory & pounds outside, just as UK scientists did in the 1970s
Per pound is how scrap and metals are priced in the US. This is applied science, not theory. ;)
She's just saying they pay by weight. It doesn't matter which units you choose to use.
@@alanhat5252 But kg are acceptable US measurements too, so why not use those? Also, the video is international, why should the rest of the world have to be dragged backwards to accommodate archaic US units?
WOW!
13:18 Did I hear right? Did she say "It's all smelty"
I wish! Pretty sure she said "it's all smelting"
❤
Great interview
So what happens to the light metals like lithium that react with water? Was that the bit of the video with technical difficulties.
I've heard of a university powdering ewaste and batteries, then using static electricity to separate the metals in a dry environment. I wonder how efficient that is compared to using a current in water?
Lithium is mainly in ion form in batteries. Not in solid metal form.
They are extracting hydroxides not actual metal ... see website.
Exciting technology. It would have been great if she could have touched on whether their process is sensitive to being poisoned by contaminants that may be in the recycling stream. One thing that is simpler about mining is that the composition of the ore is well understood, whereas a junk yard could contain most elements in the periodic table.
Also, quality control of the end product would be a concern. A battery manufacturer requires their source materials to be within a very tight specification. If the material is coming from many small companies, how would one be assured that the purity is within spec. Any contamination would be hugely detrimental downstream.
Why didn't you ask her how it works?
She gave a summary of how it works. Electrified filters that can target specific metals.
@@blahdelablah Yes, that's the best I got, some form of electro-plating maybe. So you see the confusion. Nobody knows.
@@MegaWilderness
Less electroplating, more "electrostatic" transfer
(Related to the way a laser printer works)
@@rogerstarkey5390 I thought that too, but can't understand how different metals could be separated. This is my point we are just guessing. I wish he'd asked the good Dr. how it worked.
Hmm, perhaps you have yet to recognise the term "patent"?
For all we know the good Doctor is not permitted to go beyond descriptions of basic science when dealing with the Press?
Rather a good episode, and interesting to note the recycling of "old" EV batteries into static home back up systems is no longer considered as "sensible" as once portrayed.
With reference to sources of metals there was no mention of "mining" decades old landfill sites.
Must be a lot of old domestic products lurking under the soil full of copper and silver and gold ready for recycling.
And the thousands of miles/tons of copper conductors lying in cable ducts, against waiting for recycling too.
Now, is it just me but this recycling thing involving water and electricity and instant recycling has been with us for some time.
I refer you to the hydrogen fuel cell.
Hydrogen is converted back to water by the introduction of oxygen in the air.
Now that R&D has introduced catalysts other than platinum (granted not so efficient, as yet ...) then hydrogen gas fuel cells will become cheaper as research evolves.
Depends what is the aim for hydrogen. I’ll simply copy and paste something I have posted previously about hydrogen: Hydrogen has certainly its place to power heavy duty machineries for which the energy density of current batteries could be insufficient. But when people talk about hydrogen as a great solution to store energy for example, I feel that they tend to omit the energy cost of such a thing in itself. You need 44 kWh of electricity (let’s say from renewables) to produce 1 kg of hydrogen from water and air. For perspective, that’s about 5 days of electricity usage by a UK household on average… Then, you need 4 kWh of electricity per kg of H2 to compress it for storage, or at least 10 kWh per kg of H2 to liquefy it.
Basically, since H2 has an energy density of 34 kWh/kg, its production from renewable electricity leads to a 23% loss in conversion. And converting 1 kg of H2 into a state compatible with its storage would use the equivalent of 10%-30% of the energy contained in that very same kg of H2. Not even mentioning the electricity used to maintain it in that storage-compatible state and transport it… So from production to storage of 1 kg of H2, you are already exhausting the equivalent of 30%-40% of the renewable energy that you used to make it…
@@Nikoo033
😂😂😂😂😂😂
You are missing the point entirely.
You, and far, far too many others keep on and on about this cost and efficiency thing.
All of us have read similar ref the costings etc.
Allow me to repeat yet again ... the idea is to clean up the atmosphere as in to vastly reduce the greenhouse gases leading to the build up of heat in our atmosphere.
This heat will, in time, melt all the global ice, allow sea levels to rise, inundate the coastal regions and force people to move to higher ground and compete with space required to feed the population.
It's that or build floating habitations and learning to like fish and seaweeds.
So, if you consider electricity would be expensive today then the cost of rehousing the population and grow crops to feed "us" will be a lot more "tomorrow". We might decide meat products require more space than can be provided.
Try to think outside the box instead of regurgitating stuff you picked up at uni or similar.
You shouldn't forget "context" either.
@@t1n4444 just for information, burning H2 to produce energy releases water in gas form. This might come to a surprise to you, but water vapour is… a green house gas 😅
St Gdptgrs Eco Mining episode please ❤❤❤❤❤
I’ve got a great idea ! Could you contact me please
Roy
The questions seem to be twice as long as the answers. 🥸
But necessary.
Have you considered that sometimes asking a longer, more specific question will result in a "yes/no" answer?
Robert certainly needs to cut back on the incidental waffle😊