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Magic in 2003 Was Truly Something Else | Goblin Bidding vs Madness

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  • Опубликовано: 22 янв 2024
  • Frank Karsten brings us back to see 2003's Goblin Bidding deck face off against Madness! And you could play these decks too! We are giving away both of the decks played in this video if you follow the instructions in this link: bit.ly/3U2jruS
    _______________________________
    !Opinions expressed in this video are those of the author/video creator and not necessarily Cardmarket.
    ➥ Buy and Sell your cards: 🛒
    www.cmkt.co/v
    You can find us on:
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Комментарии • 344

  • @CardmarketMagic
    @CardmarketMagic  6 месяцев назад +22

    Follow the link here to find the decklists and potentially win these decks: bit.ly/3U2jruS

    • @epicthief
      @epicthief 6 месяцев назад

      I first bought Magic back in the early 90s when I was elementary school. The art got me in trouble with my parents. I started playing in middle school when I worked at a summer camp where my boss was a former judge from a world/pro tour. He showed us EDH which he called the judge's format and shared his cube which had everything from alpha and up to everything that year. What a time, we all poured on out when Hasbro took over. I love this content and everything your channel does, even the yugi stuff lol

    • @idanbhk3875
      @idanbhk3875 6 месяцев назад +2

      Is the contest only for Europeans, or will you be able to ship outside Europe?

    • @JoeDF
      @JoeDF 6 месяцев назад +2

      Hello from Canada! Love this channel, but sad that cardmarket doesn't seem to do outside of Europe :(

    • @fernandob2275
      @fernandob2275 6 месяцев назад +2

      That is correct, cardmarket doesn’t ship outside of Europe. It’s a shame too. Many years I’ve wanted to buy from card market but cannot

  • @michaelsinnreich6626
    @michaelsinnreich6626 6 месяцев назад +317

    Everybody is a badass until Frank starts counting. Great play!

    • @epicthief
      @epicthief 6 месяцев назад +5

      I used to play elf ball, when I started counting, you could see the joy drain from their face

    • @Botanick13
      @Botanick13 6 месяцев назад +5

      Math should be banned from MTG

    • @suntzu6122
      @suntzu6122 6 месяцев назад +3

      @@Botanick13 FRANK DID YOU RUN THE NUMBERS AGAIN. GET THIS KID OUTTA HERE! JUDGE!!

  • @alexkuzela9266
    @alexkuzela9266 6 месяцев назад +115

    Frank again showing why he is one of the best brains in Magic. Some of the lines that he's seen in the games hes played are amazing.

    • @pinobluevogel6458
      @pinobluevogel6458 6 месяцев назад +3

      His reputation for being both a great math player and math explainer is justified :)

  • @DackKija
    @DackKija 6 месяцев назад +221

    Let's go! More Frank! ❤

    • @SickOfItAll1988
      @SickOfItAll1988 6 месяцев назад +2

      Damn I wanted to comment the exact same thing lmao

    • @impp18
      @impp18 6 месяцев назад +2

      Hmmm. Maybe I should have checked the comments before posting my own... Your honor, my client pleads oopsie daisy

    • @cantfeelmyfacehelp7375
      @cantfeelmyfacehelp7375 6 месяцев назад

      Disagree, need more Jamin, he is superior 🔥

  • @omnivision616
    @omnivision616 6 месяцев назад +145

    I loved this era of MtG. It's why I love Premodern now.

    • @Reuben.Aotearoa
      @Reuben.Aotearoa 6 месяцев назад +8

      Someone had to name drop the format in these comments! Goblins is a tier 1 deck as it adds stuff like Lackey, Matron and Ringleader to this shell. UG Madness isn’t quite as good, although Survival of the Fittest does bump it a bit, but you could build a deck very similar to the one played here very cheaply (especially if you weren’t fussy about printings or condition) and it’s a great way to get into the format.

  • @Nagy1989
    @Nagy1989 6 месяцев назад +72

    An additional complication with the math around the Goblin deck's damage was that damage used the stack at this time in Magic. So you could block/be blocked, assign the damage, then sac that creature for damage and still have it deal the assigned combat damage. Onslaught was the first set that came out after I started to play Magic. My friend had a Goblin deck; I had a Cleric deck. We'd sometimes have games that went until decking!

    • @Rivetlicker
      @Rivetlicker 6 месяцев назад +11

      I was about to say this; damage on the stack! Siege gang was even better back then...

    • @lars_rosenberg
      @lars_rosenberg 6 месяцев назад +7

      @@Rivetlicker and Mogg Fanatic was a staple!

  • @Ahayzo
    @Ahayzo 6 месяцев назад +40

    I was really confused how Frank was planning to play the payoff turn in game 1, until he played Bidding and I realized it returns things to play, not hand!

  • @zendicarreborn8896
    @zendicarreborn8896 6 месяцев назад +180

    I think i'm becoming a Carl fan. Each time I see that a video includes Carl I go "Carl! :D"

    • @cantfeelmyfacehelp7375
      @cantfeelmyfacehelp7375 6 месяцев назад +8

      Dats not the way, join Jamin enjoyers

    • @franslair2199
      @franslair2199 6 месяцев назад +12

      More like Carlmarket

    • @lordmatz3435
      @lordmatz3435 6 месяцев назад

      if jamin fans are this exclusive im staying in the karl camp ;)

    • @cantfeelmyfacehelp7375
      @cantfeelmyfacehelp7375 6 месяцев назад

      @@lordmatz3435 as vice president of Jamin enjoyers club I can say for sure, that we are open to everyone who is ready to enjoy Jamin and most importantly his jokes. We need YOU!

    • @pinobluevogel6458
      @pinobluevogel6458 6 месяцев назад +1

      Carl is great for sure, this channel is made by the fun personalities on the videos, which for me includes everyone. Adding Frank or Andrea to the mix only makes it better. Since I started playing magic in my teens, I've met so many fun and great people, the guys on this channel remind me of that in every video.

  • @racoonnewsnetwork8147
    @racoonnewsnetwork8147 6 месяцев назад +32

    Frank and Mengu have to be my favourite guests. Thanks for getting him back on :)

  • @davidhansen5067
    @davidhansen5067 6 месяцев назад +5

    Frank Karsten and old Magic, I'm having a great evening now! Keep bringing him back!

  • @LiquidSoulfly
    @LiquidSoulfly 6 месяцев назад +16

    I remember playing gobobidding back in the day. Pulling lethal out of nowhere is VERY common with that deck. Super fun and hilarious.

  • @MrZestubo
    @MrZestubo 6 месяцев назад +8

    I really like these throwback videos, and Frank's always a delight to have around. Legend

  • @Mightypi
    @Mightypi 6 месяцев назад +9

    Every Frank video is crazy. There's always something that makes you go "that lad should be in the hall of fame"

    • @CardmarketMagic
      @CardmarketMagic  6 месяцев назад +9

      Hall of famers play like hall of famers should :)

  • @thygamerguy
    @thygamerguy 6 месяцев назад +7

    i love this series, its a real peek into magics past, its impossible to see anything like this anywhere else

  • @emanuelqfernandes
    @emanuelqfernandes 6 месяцев назад +3

    YAY! A new Frank Karsten video and a new World Championship deck game! Love vintage, brings so many good memories to me.

  • @kattennan1299
    @kattennan1299 6 месяцев назад +2

    UG madness was the first proper "semi-competitive" deck I ever built, back when I first started playing magic. Basking Rootwalla is still one of my favourite cards because of that deck.

  • @lastnamefirstname8655
    @lastnamefirstname8655 6 месяцев назад +3

    more fun mtg history from the past! thanks frank and cardmarket!

  • @mrmagongus
    @mrmagongus 2 месяца назад

    Oh my god, this series is nostalgic enough as it is, but hearing Frank talking about the Aquamoeba pinging trick just sent my brain back in time 20 years

  • @QuesoDipp
    @QuesoDipp 6 месяцев назад +3

    This was my favorite era of Standard/Extended, really glad to see you guys playing these decks.

  • @ylktr
    @ylktr 6 месяцев назад +4

    So much nostalgia in this one! Blue/Green madness was the only one of those pro tour decks I ever owned. My first magic deck ever was a 7th edition goblins precon, so goblins have always had a special place in my heart. I ended up using a lot of the cards in Frank's deck.

  • @jeanvalero1597
    @jeanvalero1597 6 месяцев назад +5

    I want you guys to know you guys produce the best and most creative magic the gathering non-lore content out there

  • @pinobluevogel6458
    @pinobluevogel6458 6 месяцев назад

    Love these throwback Worlds decks and I also love having Frank Karsten on the show!
    Excellent explanations on how the cards interact and a very well produced video, thanks for that and all the nostalgia.

  • @caydenhankins1350
    @caydenhankins1350 6 месяцев назад

    I’ve been waiting for this!!!!! Do more or these please! I appreciate the old school content so much even though I was only 2 when this deck was being used 😅. It’s so cool to see the history and frank karsten is the man, the myth, and the legend!

  • @stikkontakt4
    @stikkontakt4 6 месяцев назад +2

    These vids with Frank are some of your best

  • @MartinJohns
    @MartinJohns 6 месяцев назад

    Awesome as always. Probably my favourite of the various series you guys are doing.

  • @t0xo
    @t0xo 6 месяцев назад +1

    Love both decks. Now i play madness in premodern.
    So much nostalgia!

  • @ryanbrougham5098
    @ryanbrougham5098 6 месяцев назад +1

    Man, I collect the gold border cards. I buy them locally whenever I see them.
    I have a silver/gold border commander deck and dreams to make a gold border only cube.
    Thanks for showing this stuff off. Wonderful collection!

  • @Umbry_Rose
    @Umbry_Rose 6 месяцев назад +4

    I started playing in high school, with Odyssey. In 2003, I got to attend type 1 Worlds at GenCon Indy. Afterwards, I sold my Alpha Lotus... $900 was a lot back then! My favorite memory from that time period, besides my time at GenCon Indy, was release night for 8th Edition. I pulled a foil Wrath of God during the draft! It was my biggest pull I had ever had to that point. It was a gorgeous card.
    (I can't do the contest, so just figured I'd share here, since I'm on the other side of the ocean.)

    • @pinobluevogel6458
      @pinobluevogel6458 6 месяцев назад +2

      So fun to read all the stories. Everybody has their great first pulls from a booster that stick with you forever. Mine was Shivan Dragon, which I later replaced with a beta version of the card and kept it on my wall for 10 years. The card isn't even that good, but it's iconic, just like that really cool 8th edition Wrath of God. (the art is a perfect mirror of Damnation)

  • @yoshimitsu5537
    @yoshimitsu5537 6 месяцев назад +1

    This is the one I've been waiting for! I started playing in 2003 and Seige Gang Commander was one of the first rares i pulled from a pack. I still have my old goblin deck and I still love it.
    Would totally enter the contest if I lived in Europe.
    Thanks for the awesome video! I look forward to more of the series.

  • @alexiswigginton452
    @alexiswigginton452 6 месяцев назад +2

    I agree, madness ignoring timing was such a learning spike for me, makes you realise that the rules of the game can and will be broken , and that theres more to the game than just playing out as many creatures you can

  • @matteorebeschi6824
    @matteorebeschi6824 6 месяцев назад +1

    This is when I started playing Magic. The Odissey block. Wild Mongrel, Arrogant Wurm, Psychatog... those were the days!

  • @donhooplah
    @donhooplah 6 месяцев назад +1

    Always great to see Frank.
    I came across his awesome statistical analysis on the number of required lands. Is worth finding for any wannabe deck builders.

  • @thealanwrencher
    @thealanwrencher 6 месяцев назад +1

    Let’s go!! Frank is back! I love this series!

  • @dan77825
    @dan77825 2 месяца назад

    This series was just awesome, hope to see more videos with Frank.

  • @NeoGoldenBoy
    @NeoGoldenBoy 6 месяцев назад +1

    On 2003 I started playing Magic, my friends introduced me to the game and at that time I dug in hard, buying boxes, fat packs with the novels (miss those). I left the game shortly after and returned just in 2019 and harder than before.

  • @bbasics
    @bbasics 6 месяцев назад

    These historic videos with frank are all really great.

  • @kherubim1
    @kherubim1 6 месяцев назад

    Another splendid video! UG Madness was the deck that brought me back to playing Magic. I'm glad to have kept the cards and get to play with the deck again in the Premodern format.

  • @gabegerszewski3755
    @gabegerszewski3755 6 месяцев назад +1

    Another fine video.
    What I loved about the Madness list is that it was so good, but also so cheap; almost the whole deck was commons and uncommons.

  • @Rain-King
    @Rain-King 6 месяцев назад +2

    Wonderful video! I know the World Championship Decks product line was discontinued after 2004, but I would personally love to see this series continue with decks from Worlds in other years.

  • @alexn188
    @alexn188 6 месяцев назад

    Odyssey is when I started playing Magic and the Scourge Goblin Pre-constructed deck was my favorite to play. Wild Mongrel is one of my favorite card, and I even went and bought a foil one too!

  • @ElektechN9ne
    @ElektechN9ne 6 месяцев назад +1

    Always love it when the guest is Frank!

  • @robotetanus
    @robotetanus 6 месяцев назад

    Thank you for doing more content from this era of MTG!

  • @nicolasmartin224
    @nicolasmartin224 6 месяцев назад

    great video, great comments and good plays! we want more years!

  • @malcom91
    @malcom91 6 месяцев назад

    Love Frank, Carls, this series... Heck, I just love all the content this channel uploads!! Cheers from Madrid

  • @puppybytes
    @puppybytes 6 месяцев назад

    Frank's frankly awesome, love to see him around

  • @MetalGamely
    @MetalGamely 6 месяцев назад

    Let's go, always look forward to another Cardmarket video

  • @lucarampazzo1
    @lucarampazzo1 6 месяцев назад +11

    Green/blue madness was my first competitive deck... nostalgia intensifies!

    • @simbelanger1
      @simbelanger1 6 месяцев назад +2

      Same! my decklist was nearly the same. Very nostalgic. Thanks for the video!

    • @kherubim1
      @kherubim1 6 месяцев назад

      I'm glad to have kept my old UG Madness deck intact and get to play with it in Premodern.

  • @travisrose2277
    @travisrose2277 6 месяцев назад +1

    Im not surprised that you didn't cover it in this video, but something that was different about the rules at the time these decks were played, was that damage used the stack. This actually made the Goblin Bidding deck much stronger at the time as it could block then put damage on the stack, amd THEN start sacrificing goblins to ping opponent's face or creatures for damage. #valuetown

  • @skylarm2068
    @skylarm2068 5 месяцев назад

    Goblin Bidding plays eerily similar to my Wort, Boggart Auntie commander deck. I'd feel right at home with this deck.

  • @Ragnarok2kx
    @Ragnarok2kx 6 месяцев назад +1

    The UG madness deck was also surprisingly affordable, it had almost no rares outside the manabase.
    And Goblin Bidding being still in Standard when Skullclamp was printed allowed it to go even more bonkers, even if clamp was more famous for the elfball and affinity decks it enabled.

  • @federicoscudeler2882
    @federicoscudeler2882 6 месяцев назад +1

    I own the "Nicolas Labarre's combo deck, called Chimera, from pro tour Brussels 2000. Bought back when I was a kid.
    The deck is so complicated and romantic that I would absolutely love to see you guys playing it ❤

  • @peggle09
    @peggle09 6 месяцев назад

    I remember crushing goblin bidding the monowhite all protection from red and black deck with color hosers. Even had a guy table flip when he could not stop it.

  • @valt3rnative
    @valt3rnative 6 месяцев назад

    Always happy to see some goblin content ❤ I felt very nostalgic while I was watching this

  • @Mefusio
    @Mefusio 6 месяцев назад

    Great Video ! Down memory lane is Always fine !

  • @Dalmathus
    @Dalmathus 6 месяцев назад

    Wooo, these are the vids I subbed for!!

  • @narius4241
    @narius4241 6 месяцев назад +1

    Goblin bidding, i've been waiting for this, I have that deck in storage, i played it so much in high school. That first game was crazy, Frank just casually won from 17 life out of nowhere.

  • @guillaumegladieux9839
    @guillaumegladieux9839 6 месяцев назад +1

    What took you so long to have Frank on the channel again ? What on earth could possibly be more important than Carl vs. Frank in "Magic was truly something else" !?
    And more seriously, amazing job, as always. Thank you !
    I love madness. I still have my "Masticore Madness" deck.

  • @TerminallyNerdy
    @TerminallyNerdy 6 месяцев назад

    Love it every time Frank is on here. Dude just clearly loves the game.

  • @TheCuzzolator
    @TheCuzzolator 6 месяцев назад +5

    Finally! I missed you guys, i personally like more video like this and less pauper/commander but still, all of your contents are amazing and you're by fare the best mtg channel on youtube

  • @shadovvsmurf
    @shadovvsmurf 6 месяцев назад +1

    This is the era when I started playing Magic and I still think it was the best era Magic ever had.

  • @TaisxD
    @TaisxD 6 месяцев назад +1

    I think these Karsten videos are my favorite mtg content. Carl is a treat to watch but having Frank's infectious love for old magic is just something else. The gameplay in this one wasn't the best of these but the banter and everything else around it more than made up for that.

    • @CardmarketMagic
      @CardmarketMagic  6 месяцев назад +1

      Yeah unfortunately, not every game is a banger, but having Frank over is always a treat :)

  • @manuelraith4843
    @manuelraith4843 6 месяцев назад

    Wow, Goblin-Bidding brings back a lot of fond childhood memories. Thanks for the Flashbacks! :D

  • @Sientir
    @Sientir 6 месяцев назад +5

    When I started playing Magic in 2007, I remember a friend had the UG Madness deck. I've had a soft spot in my heart for it ever since!
    Also, shout out to Reckless Wurm, the red version of Arrogant Wurm from Time Spiral.
    I love madness aggro decks. :D

  • @Meddling_Mage
    @Meddling_Mage 6 месяцев назад

    These 2000s videos rock! Would be awesome to see the 2 decks from the 2000 world championship, the bob maher and brian davis match.

  • @bblivid
    @bblivid 6 месяцев назад

    yaaas. This is when I started playing. So many memories

  • @epicthief
    @epicthief 6 месяцев назад +2

    I finally was hitting my strides as a young teen in MTG, finally learning more high level playing like mixing blue into my mono green. My brother was mixing black into is mono red. Simple times, just goblins and elfs

  • @rolfholmstedt6856
    @rolfholmstedt6856 6 месяцев назад

    These are always awesome, more Frank

  • @ATH420
    @ATH420 6 месяцев назад

    Videos with frank are always awesome

  • @Speedemon559
    @Speedemon559 6 месяцев назад

    These videos are always a banger!!!

  • @daedalusdreamjournal5925
    @daedalusdreamjournal5925 6 месяцев назад

    I was waiting for this for some time now !!!
    Let's see what 2003 has in store for us :)

  • @joshuaadams5295
    @joshuaadams5295 6 месяцев назад

    Amazing video. That's very close to the time I started magic. I started maybe 2 to 4 years before that. I was young so it's hard to remember the exact date. I remember playing my brother and fnm with those decks though.

  • @aiwaiwou3556
    @aiwaiwou3556 6 месяцев назад

    I loved this. Couple of years ago, my brother built me madness deck out of nostalgia 😊

  • @XTimTheEnchanterX
    @XTimTheEnchanterX 6 месяцев назад

    Hype for the return of this series!

  • @sebbbi2
    @sebbbi2 6 месяцев назад

    Won couple of local tournaments with both of these decks back in the day. Fond memories.

  • @rtkamb389
    @rtkamb389 6 месяцев назад +1

    I love these video's. Keep on making great videos
    One word of advice for the madness deck. Always change the color to black as it's the best way to avoid removal. Changing it to anything else (at least back then) didn't really do much.

  • @brunobaw657
    @brunobaw657 6 месяцев назад

    So many memories, I played both decks a lot back in type 2

  • @PyroSparton117
    @PyroSparton117 6 месяцев назад

    Fantastic video and super cool decks!
    Sad I can’t win the decks but I hope they go to someone awesome! Much love from Texas!

  • @stefanpedias4511
    @stefanpedias4511 6 месяцев назад

    These are my favourite videos you guys do

  • @bulgi7440
    @bulgi7440 6 месяцев назад

    I’ve got that goblin deck from when I was a kid, I remember the anger of may friend when we were kids and I keep winning against ravnica precon 😂

  • @LotusPaintball
    @LotusPaintball 6 месяцев назад

    I was playing in a JSS (Junior Super Series IIRC) tournament back in this era, and was playing mono black clerics. I had used dark supplicant to grab a Scion of Darkness and steal my opponents Goblin Sharpshooter, then proceeded to use Cabal Archon as a sac outlet to untap the sharpshooter, but in reality just using sharpshooter to kill his 1/1 Goblins was already pretty much game. I did end up using his own Sharpshooter against him for a quick lethal.

  • @Norgorber
    @Norgorber 6 месяцев назад +3

    Even though they didn't make pre-built decks for 2005's world championship, I hope you do something for it (after all, that's the one Frank Karsten actually got to the finals of!)

    • @kherubim1
      @kherubim1 6 месяцев назад +1

      That's a brilliant idea, I hope they build those decks and relive the moment!

  • @80081355318008
    @80081355318008 6 месяцев назад

    Goblin bidding is probably my favorite standard deck ever. Love this

  • @petermoglia
    @petermoglia 6 месяцев назад

    I'm just chuckling to myself at the chiptune version of Swan Lake playing between game 1 and 2.

  • @BrootalMetalBanjo
    @BrootalMetalBanjo 6 месяцев назад +1

    I played that UG madness deck. It was all about my Rootwallas and Roar of the Wurm

  • @michaschulz5182
    @michaschulz5182 6 месяцев назад +1

    I was 14 this was my First Standart/T2 and Madness my First Tournament Deck this is pure nostalgia

  • @chenhennig7673
    @chenhennig7673 6 месяцев назад

    I like this series. Brings back some memories.

  • @ralr
    @ralr 6 месяцев назад

    I still have my UG madness deck (regular cards, not worlds) from that era! ❤ this episode!

  • @bigshrimp6914
    @bigshrimp6914 6 месяцев назад

    What a cool insight into the history of mtg

  • @SimpleWillyy
    @SimpleWillyy 6 месяцев назад

    i fricking love this Guy Frank Krasten

  • @AENock
    @AENock 6 месяцев назад

    I remember having a BW Clerics deck around this time. Oversold Cemetary and Wrath of God were super thematic as well, and played well into the grindy Cleric gameplan. I really enjoyed this era of magic.

  • @timw9745
    @timw9745 6 месяцев назад

    Love these decks, still have a lot of Kai Budde, red aggro and the black artifact championship decks. This was when nobody used sleeves so they got a lot of wear. Still got them all tho :)

  • @Divinevert
    @Divinevert 6 месяцев назад

    I was watching the "Lightning Helix OMG" live when it happened.

  • @ryanpinkus1338
    @ryanpinkus1338 6 месяцев назад

    Back in the day, my twin and I went to a card shop to buy some cards and there was a tournament going on. I saw the Madness deck and I watched the game and I wanted that deck so bad, it looked so fun. So I've built it and it is my pet deck.. Then Blazing rootwalla was released. So I adapted that one single card into the deck(in the old border, obviously)
    It's still my favorite pet deck.

  • @manasplained
    @manasplained 6 месяцев назад

    Love this series

  • @heavyonthemustardplz
    @heavyonthemustardplz 6 месяцев назад

    Love these videos

  • @rgw0n344
    @rgw0n344 6 месяцев назад

    Please more videos with the old decks from world champions! And more power to your channel! 🎉

  • @eosakizo
    @eosakizo 5 месяцев назад

    I just played against a pauper version of that madness deck. It amazed me how good Wild Mongrel is

  • @v-niftytrickster4166
    @v-niftytrickster4166 6 месяцев назад

    Bro every Frank Karsten video is such a banger! I'm still recovering from the double 5-0 fact or fiction splits smh

  • @travisrose2277
    @travisrose2277 6 месяцев назад

    I own a copy of that Wolfgang Eder Goblin Bidding deck and having casually played it extensively for years, I can say Frank's assessment while sideboarding concerning the number of black mana sources is absolutely spot on. Even with Bloodstained More and Shadowblood Ridge, the deck struggles to balance being a primarily red deck while needing to have 2 black mana by the time it can make 5 total mana. Modern day mana bases capable of pairing duals with fetches have us spoiled. 😂

    • @travisrose2277
      @travisrose2277 6 месяцев назад

      That being said I loved goblins before I ever picked that up, and I love the deck it's still amazingly fun. I personally have played plenty of games that go off like the goblins did in game one of this match.

  • @Peter-wj2hz
    @Peter-wj2hz 6 месяцев назад

    Krosan Beast saw some play in some UG Threshold decks and was generally the biggest creature on the battlefield at this time, being a 4 mana 8/8 if you had Threshold. However, it often competed for a slot with Roar of the Wurm and Phantom Centaur.