The OceanGate Scandal Is Worse Than You Think
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- Опубликовано: 13 сен 2024
- The OceanGate Scandal Is Worse Than You Realize! Will the "Death Waivers" hold up in court? Can the families sue? What does the US military think about the Titan Sub using an XBOX controller? Is visiting the Titanic wreck legally considered desecrating a mass grave? Get all your questions answered in this must-see video!
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#titansub #news #law #titanicsub #titanic #submersible #titan #stocktonrush #oceangate #usnews #submarine #worldnews #legal #lawyer #lawbymike
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Creative Director: Alec Mandell
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9 minutes ago
Mike, you should team up with Ryan George to do the pitch meeting for the documentary before the documentary is even made. The collaboration would be super easy, barely an inconvenience!
Will the waivers hold up? It shouldn’t if there’s evidence to prove that the paying passengers were misled.
@@dennisivan85 never is a strong word. We have a lot of technologies today that many people back then think it would never happen.
Who are you? Are you the US military decision maker on what goes and doesn’t go to critical military equipment.
It's a good video
My family likes to poke fun at me for always reading contracts thoroughly before I sign them. Cases like these are the extreme examples of why it matters
Better safe than sorry. Weird clauses are often sneaked in the fine print.
No point though Andy. Any high paid slimy lawyer wriggles around contracts anyway.
When I grow up, I want to be like you. 👍
@@DarrylHartlol no point? So you’re volunteering to become legal prey then from the get-go -___-
I do not think some of this person's snarky statements are appropriate - they are dead their families are alive. Fortunately, eventually, his toner changed. How would the families of the deceased react to his comments?
Bypassing unmanned pressure testing before going into the vessel yourself is absolutely insane.
They said they collaborated with Boeing (if it was made by Lockheed it wouldn’t have burst)
His surname was Rush. The irony universe have some times.
It had 3 successful expeditions tho.
@@Crazmussstill doesn’t cut the unmanned bypassing of testing, rush the retard.
@@ThomasConover no it would be ironic if he was named "Mr Slow" not Rush, that's just a coincidence.
I would state the fact that Rush went on record saying going down in Titan to see the Titanic was, quote "Safer than crossing a road" are more than adequate grounds for misrepresentation of the risk and make the waiver void.
I think he meant that it was only slightly safer than crossing a freeway with 8 lanes on each side while not being aware of your surroundings at all
I cross roads everyday 20 years and cou ting nothing has happend to me... that tin can is a underwater coffin
Depends on the "Road" .. Autobahn at rush hour while blindfolded and with your legs shackled is more accurate.
I almost got hit by a truck crossing the road after putting my son on his school bus, so crossing the road is pretty dangerous.
@@LouisianaGirly cross or road or go into a titan sub? What is more dangerous?
Stockton will definitely be remembered for the rules he broke; And the 4 lives he took along with his own because of it.
I can imagine "pulling a Stockton" becoming common vocab for ventures like this.
Lol those 4 signed up willingly.
@@mxwells216 Except for the kid who was in the sub because he wanted to please his father. And wasn't he too young, at 19, to legally sign that kind of death waiver anyway? Did his father sign his?
Generally speaking, I think adults have, and should have, the right to take even really stupid risks with their lives, and things like what that CEO and his Oceangate company did should also be allowed - sure it means that people will die, but on the other hand we can probably learn from them and where and how they fail too, and sometimes that kind of pretty extreme risk-taking can also result in breakthroughs. If experiments with flying machines had been regulated with governments trying to make sure nobody ever died we might not have airplanes now, or they might still be mostly only very expensive military vehicles.
But maybe that right to risk your life should be limited to legal adults.
And perhaps there should be some sort of rule that people who do something like buy that kind of sub trip would have to listen to one lecture by somebody who is not working for the company getting the money from them so that they will get some chance to comprehend the actual, real risks with what they are about to do, as the company representatives presumably will downplay those, with Oceangate certainly seem to have, and most of the people who went in that sub may not have even read through those waivers, or not taken them seriously if they did.
Anytime someone stuffs up call it doing the Stockton rush
@@mxwells216You're commenting on a video that details how they wouldn't have been fully aware of the risk. Let me use a more "everyday person" analogy. Airplanes sometimes crash. When buying an airplane ticket, you are probably aware that in an extremely rare, like 1 in a billion flights or whatever rate, there can be a life ending crash.
What you don't sign up for is flying with a suicidal person who doesn't have a pilot license but forced themselves into the cockpit because they want to end their life by crashing the plane. Together with dozens other lives.
Same with submersible expeditions. There is ALWAYS a chance something will fail. The thing is, OceanGate MAXIMIZED the risk by refusing to use materials and technologies that would withstand the pressure. They refused various types of tests and certifications that would prove their design would fail.
Sumbersibles can sometimes fail.
Airplanes can sometimes crash.
Would you get into an airplane where I am the only pilot? (my only license for any modes of transportation is for regular cars and I've never been in a pilot cockpit in my life, but I won't tell you that :)).
It is ironic that people were misinformed about the submersible’s capabilities and lost their lives while visiting a sunken ship where people lost their lives because they were misinformed about a ship being unsinkable.
😂😂😂
Heyo give credit to the guy who originally said that.
hes probably a bot, bots like this copy somebodies else comment and then other bots like it, and if derik is right then this is a bot
Original Titanic followed the regulations that existed at a time and even packed a few more safety measures, unless I am mistaken.
@@backstabba This is true, they followed maritime regulations, but they ignored ice warnings and the encouraging demands from J Bruce Ismay (rich guy) to push the new ship to arrive early in NY broke the chain of command onboard and contributed to the accident. Just my opinion.
The worst part about the controller wasn’t that it’s a video game controller, it’s the fact that it was WIRELESS. Meaning it had a much higher chance of disconnecting
The worst part is there wasn't a PlayStation on board
Yes a backup wired connection would have been prudent. However the shortfalls of the controller are irrelevant as from what we know so far, it had nothing to do with the accident.
It's sad that nobody wants to admit the truth
Does deep depth affect the controlling ? Because I know bluetooth connection deos gets interrupted
@@unusualvideos8269 The depth has no influence.
I remember Stockton responding to an email an expert sent him saying at one point “you’re going to get someone killed” and he responded with some sassy reply that he took “very personal offense to that”. He was an idiot who believed he was some pioneer of innovation. I wish he’d lived to see and deal with the fallout
I heard he came from a very successful family, originally wanted to do other things but he couldn't for some reason and moved to this field. Think he just wanted to live up to his name and kept failing. Sounded sad really, despite everything kinda made me feel bad for him.
@@Krisp138He wanted to be astronaut, but it wasn't possible, because of high physical standards.
Yes, now everybody make fun of him, but the real truth is that EVERY innovation, was generally rejected in the first time.
Also, many people lose their life's in those process.
In this case it is obvious that he is extremely self confident, but it is not so unexpected from innovators, to blindly believe in their's creation.
Unfortunately, it won't be one of revolutionary, but failor story
@@thea_rahel "EVERY innovation was generally rejected in the first time."
That is absolutely false. Most innovations are accepted even in their first time. That is why they catch on to the broader market. It is extremely rare that a new innovation would be generally rejected.
A few months ago, I was happy that his own hubris took him out. But as I think of this more and more, I really wish he would have lived to listen to everyone call him a dumb f@&k murderer.
@@thea_rahelwas he fat or lazy, or was he literally incapable of ever being physically fit to be an astronaut
A company cannot sign away negligence. Even if you get them to sign a waiver, the negligence is still there.
that is the problem with our society . waivers like this one should be upheld by the courts. it's plain as day to me.
@@ronblack7870 No they shouldn’t. Companies and individuals who are negligent shouldn’t be protected.
@@ronblack7870 this is the dumbest take ive ever heard. so if you sign a waver to fight me then i pulled out a knife and stabbed you I shouldn't be held accountable?
@@ronblack7870i believe the waiver will be voided once people realise how badly the company did
@@ronblack7870 It is not possible to live in our society without dealing with corporations. In almost all such affairs, the corporation is going to hold far more power than you. Corporations are by design soulless, psychopathic entities unconcerned with anything except maximizing short-term profit. So if a corporation can get away with cutting corners and getting you killed by having you sign a waiver, it will do so, because what are you going to do about it - refuse to buy food?
I know some people are driven by ideology rather than common sense, but don't you have basic survival instinct?
I’ve always believed that even with the waiver, they can sue because this was negligence. This was NOT an ACCIDENT. He KNEW and was told beforehand how dangerous his submersible was.
Yes the risks were unacceptable.
You realize he was the captain so to him the risks weren't that high.
He obviously didn’t think the risk was too high because he went on this sub many times. Why on earth would he do that if he knew it would implode?
@@suew4609 Maybe to him it was safe, but lawfully, it was not regulated, it was not adequate to the minimum standards or met the requirements for what it was built to do. So even if he believed it safe enough, his belief will not stand up in court because in paper, the submersible was not built to function safely for these expeditions.
@@mystichawk1612 He wasn’t just the captain, but the CEO, the designer and maker of this submersible and was warned many times it was not safe. That’s why it’s negligence. If he would’ve died alone, it would’ve been a risk everyone understood he took alone, but he took 4 others with him while not completely disclosing the facts that his submersible was not as safe as he sold it to them to be.
I will never understand massive corporations and insanely wealthy people's need to cut corners on something like this. That their ego is so massive that they think they're above safety protocols, yet not so massive that they can claim to have "the world's safest personal sub". Boggles the mind.
Screw the safety rules. I have no love of regulation. That being said when you have some thing that is tested to go 1300 m and you’re going 4000 m down you’d be brain dead to get that submarine.
You don't understand "cutting corners"? How do you think the corporations became so massive and the wealthy became so wealthy?
@@glitteringsunshine4306 They don't cut corners. They cut the whole sheet in half and sell both halves separately at full retail price.
@@GoodwillWright Yep, that just about explains it.
To begin with there's no reason for this type of vessel to be manned, since the window is so tiny, you don't see anything out of it, all you really see is through the cameras, and it's completely electronically controlled anyway.
With the same jank skillset and at a fraction of the size and cost, and at increased manoeuvrability, these same guys could have made an entirely adequate tethered drone with no functional disadvantage, and it could be considered disposable. But risking people's lives was apparently just better?
In Germany, you legally cannot acknowledge that your night die. If you offer a service that might kill people, letting them sign a waiver they might die doesn't get your out of trouble
Ah yes, the same Germany that refused to extradite Dieter Krombach to France for the r&pe and murder of a teenage girl, covered up the crime by removing and destroying some of Kalinka's organs, and would cover up additional r&pes by Dieter Krombach that occurred after the Kalinka case. Sounds like a great country.
@@SergeantExtremeBro shut the hell up. I'm not even german but you can't see all of the government as the same. Every country and person has skeletons in their closet. The U.S, (My country) has many horror stories just as bad. go back to your soundproofed room with your tinfoil hat you crazy mf.
@@SergeantExtremeyou mean the fact that they like to protect and harbor pedophiles?
that sucks, cause that makes shit like skydiving not really possible as a business for fear of being REALLY sued
I feel the teenager in the submersible to be a clear victim, he did not fully understand what he agreed to; he trusted his father! RIP to him for sure!
I bet he did fully understand. He wasn't 5 years old. Unless he had some sort of mental disability.
@@roadkillavenger1325 Still, He's still a Teenager, Not a Fully grown Adult that can actually make life changing decisions by themselves.
I am saying this as one myself, WE ARE STUPID, And we rely on our parents a lot. Don't expect us to be able to go into all the statistics like safety and stuff, And we aren't experts when it comes to Oceanology.
That's why I believe it's the Father's fault here, not the Teenager.
He allowed his child to literally go on, Despite knowing the risks. He voided his responsibility as a parent there.
He just wanted to be the first person on record who solved Rubic's cube beside the Titanic wreck......
I agree OP! How could him signing the waiver be legally binding he was under 18. Unless his dad signed for him. Tragic for sure.
I feel really bad for Suleman Dawood, out of everyone HE WAS THE ONLY ONE that didn't want to go on it and was terrified. He only got on it because his dad got tickets for a father's day gift. Then the possibility leaked texts show that they had alarms going off for ~20 minutes. I'm willing to bet he was freaking out
His mom gave him her ticket
@@DiegoBilliesFor real? I can’t even tell if that’s a blessing or a curse. This must of been so horrible for her.
This story is false. According to the mom he wanted to go with his dad. Please stop spreading false news.
fake news
It was widely disputed literally the next, if not the very same day, that he was 'scared'.
That and I usually double-check the validity of what I'm saying before I share any of that information with others.
Technically the sub was airtight, biggest problem is it was made from a material that s very strong under tension, not so strong under compression.
And the carbon fiber has much higher compression than the titanium used for the seal. At the pressure they were at that most likely resulted in damage to the carbonfiber part which then let water in that would decompress at over the speed of sound in air.
@@emperorsascharoni9577 I'm somewhat certain that the difference in compressibility is exactly how the pressure seal of the vessel worked!
So there are metal endcaps, and those attach to rings, and the rings are glued to the CF cylinder. But the rings have an inner lip. The rings are epoxied onto the CF but this is basically just a gap filler, as there's any number of ways it can shear clean off the metal surface and probably did. The surface preparation of the metal was for sure not good enough to rely on it as a bonding agent.
As the vessel submerges, the shrinkage of epoxy binder material in CF under pressure seals the CF tube onto the lip of the rings. In turn the pressure also acts on the endcaps, sealing them onto the rings, and the rings being pressed longitudinally into the CF tube. Had the CF tube not failed, it was a perfect dynamic seal. But of course CF tube would experience a crazy level of deformation and wouldn't last, that's the problem.
Dynamic sealing is also exactly how the cheap ($40) Vostok Soviet dive watch is sealed under pressure, it's famously a little leaky under atmospheric conditions. The plastic crystal (lens piece) and various plastic and thin sheet-metal pieces end up deforming to seal it once it's submerged. Of course for a cheap watch, that's top notch ingenuity; for a manned vessel, well you have to climb a really high bar of margin of safety for any sort of adventurous engineering to not be an outright crime.
Funny thing is, carbon fiber could be a legitimately good choice for a sub, thanks to how buoyancy works that deep. But it has to be done properly, unlike on the Titan...
To be exact, upon digging a bit deeper in the literature and talking to people in the field (ultra-deep submersibles), it turns out that a composite submarine actually makes a lot of sense. Deep diving composite subs have been explored and even tested successfully going back to the 1980s.
Submersibles fail typically due to buckling (not pure compressive failure) and composites can be quite stiff, which is what you want to resist buckling. On a specific mass basis, composites for stiffness are a win.
Normally for submersible objects, you don’t care much about mass. E.g., a composite SCUBA tank for sport divers makes no sense, as you’d need to add weights to make it neutrally buoyant.
But as you go ultra deep (> 2 km down), metal pressure vessels become negatively buoyant (i.e., they sink), so deep-diving subs need external buoyancy devices (typically floats made of syntactic foams on Alvin or-going back-tanks of gasoline on Trieste). If you want a sub that doesn’t have these external buoyancy devices, i.e., you want a sub that is light, slippery, and streamlined, then a composite cylinder with titanium endcaps starts to look very attractive.
The issue with the Titan was not the conceptual design, but rather it had not been proofed to the depths it was bringing crew and passengers. That was nuts.
The fact that they fired an engineer for telling them the vessel was unsafe and not saying anything is enough to sue
That sub is clearly made by an architect
Calling them mission specialists to avoid legal oversight was a cheap move.
The fact that they paid to be on the sub makes them passengers, regardless of what vanity name you give them. It won't make any difference if it does make it to court.
Having them pay quarter million dollars and them make work like his own staff. How gullible can you get?
@@Chrisamic they got what was coming for them hahah
Yeah, they're crew if you pay them instead of taking their money!
Very. Paid passengers on an experimental vessel sounds bad.
There is a VAST difference between acknowledging that an activity might result in death even when appropriate safety measures are observed and agreeing to waive liability for the neglect of safety measures for which they have not been apprised. Not only should they lose their law suits, but they also should be prosecuted for manslaughter.
From what I have been hearing, these waivers may hold up in the US but not in France or the UK.
Okay but the CEO believed it was reasonably safe as evidenced by his being on the thing himself. Clearly he wasn't suicidal and therefore he was operating in good faith. Sorry
@@AmorFati777X Operating in good faith is not enough. Believing you can do something safely and proving that you can do it safely are two different things.
@@AmorFati777X Blind faith doesnt invalidate or validate safety regulations.
If i play russian roulette with someone who's signed a death waiver but have faith that god will let both of us live and they die, do I avoid manslaughter or murder charges? No. At best I'm getting off with an insanity plea.
As is standard with submersibles, the materials used for the project is tested against extreme pressures, observed, scanned and retested until it fails.
They then take however many times it fails and designate a number below that as the ''safe hours of operation.
So if you can ride your bike for 100miles before it breaks down, it'd have a rating of 80 miles, or lower.
The material wasnt scanned for faults, the material was entirely experimental, and their observational tests were incomplete because they couldnt see the structural integrity of the carbon fiber or seals, so they didnt know if it'd brake on the 1st run, the 3rd or the 300th and at any stage know where the faults might appear to repair or address them.
I'd imagine that they did a live test and it didnt implode. Yet.
So Stockton just assumed that'd it'd be fine to continue which is why he was so comfortable boarding it.
To quote Darkest Dungeon: "Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer."
The good faith argument goes out the moment that he didnt properly test his materials to see when or if they'd break at depth.
If you were operating in good faith you'd have made the necessary checks to know when things would start to go wrong and when to discontinue the sub.
Or, use readily available, known materials that are known to operate at those depths to ensure safety.
Once again if your argument is the waivers are invalid because Stockton Rush was dishonest, I asked you once more how you establish he was not acting in good faith. The basis of the argument for throwing out the signed waivers, you know holding the adults responsible for their own stupid decisions because personal accountability is somehow lost in this generation, it the basis for argument is he mislead or lied, when he was simultaneously ARROGANT about how his sub was safe and evidenced his erroneous belief in that he was on board himself, you cannot convince a reasonable, intellectually honest person that he is guilty of any deception independent of his own deception. He was WRONG but not blatantly lying to anybody.
The US Navy does not report to civilians what they hear with top-secret sonar. They did however report it immediately to that support boat.
the people on the support boat heard the implosion.
Of course, because why would US Navy expose their sonar equipments secretly lurking around.
After reading the the book and see the movie Hunt for Red October, I learned of SOSUS Nets... devices made to listen for enemy sub activity.
SOSUS
Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS) was the original name for a submarine detection system based on passive sonar developed by the United States Navy to track Soviet submarines. The system's true nature was classified with the name and acronym SOSUS classified as well.
Sure they do. How are you talking about it now? They reported it to the incident commander (the USCG) via unclassified channels (because it’s not classified) and when the USCG confirmed the wreck was imploded they released that “the US Navy heard a sound consistent with an implosion”. That information was released to civilians, we all heard it, we are sitting here talking about it.
The general capabilities of IUSS are well known. They’re not releasing raw detection data of some super spooky spy submarine no one knows about. They said “we heard a boom” 🤷♀️. Telling USCG is no different than police not releasing names of victims until contacting families.
The controller used for the submarine is different from the millitary used ones. You can see in the pictures that all military controllers have a cable connection, while the oceangate does not have one. That makes it unsafer because of the risk of disconnecting
Yeah it’s a Logitech Controller That you cqn find on amazon smh 🤦♀️😑😑😑
They signed the waiver, but afterward when some expressed their anxiety, the CEO both verbally and via texts abated them by making fake claims about how safe it is, after they signed the waiver. That seems like a legal issue, maybe?
Rush was a commercial pilot for 18 year and was an expert in aviation where carbon fiber is great material there. When comes to diving you should be humble enough to step away or at least listen to other expert opinions. He was in a total different environment
RUSH WAS A WANNABE ....
@@LeeLee-ud2cp That's exactly what he was. He thought he could just call himself an innovator and that would be good enough, but he didn't actually innovate anything.
reading what you said, he fit's the m.o perfectly. Experimental aircraft have the highest accident & fatalities when purchased & operated by wealthy / ATP/Commercial rated pilots. I have seen so many of these types throw a fit when they do not get what they want. Every single one has wrecked or been killed.
As a commercial pilot surely he was aware of the history of aviation safety and the necessity of doing thorough research on your vessel?
I worked in IT for many years and understand the mindset of people like Rush. He didn't just want to build a submersible. He wanted to build one of a type that had never been built before. That was his downfall. With any project you need to define your goal first and then work backwards. Rush became too focused on using exotic materials. Simple as that.
It was scary how the guy seemed to be actually _proud_ of the fact he constructed his sub out of materials everybody agreed was unfit for that depth, and how he used a cheap video game controller to steer it.
I picked up on that arrogance from Rush too. But still, imagine paying that much to do something so risky and without researching and making smart decisions based on the construction deficits. Goes to show that the ultra-rich are not smarter.
Narcissism. They truly believe their wants and desires can overwrite physics.
I really don't get why people are so fixated on the controller. That's a perfectly reasonable way to set up the controls. There's no difference between it and a button panel with joysticks, ones just more comfortable to use.
The game controller overall was actually not a terrible idea and had nothing to do with the failure of the ship. Pretty much everything else was the problem. The game controller is actually a pretty good idea overall. Regular controls take 100 times more space and weigh 500 times as much as that game controller, and frankly are not much more capable. It's amazing what the right hands can do with dual analog joypads.
Carbon fiber is a cool material but it does not duty cycle well. Steel if it stays within spec has "infinite duty cycle".
It was safe maybe 1 time. It gets squeezed, deforms, and returns to original shape. Like bending a paperclip back and fourth it will let go.
Fun fact: The game controllers they used in the sub is known for being bad with connection and it is known for disconnecting a lot.
Kinda a bummer that a person that's most responsible for this tragedy aint there to be prosecuted
I think it can be agreed that what he got was worse than anything we could have given him.
@@LexTime89 i mean, he died quicker than he could feel it
If he was jailed and fined it could at least make for an example
@@alternativewalls4988 I wonder, if given the option, which one he would have rather happened?
He's very lucky he doesn't have to deal the consequences of his deadly actions.
@@tonyducks1121nah bruh
At one point, stockton had said the missions are "extremely safe"....at another point he said, "safety just is...pure waste". Rush didn't only not listen to others, he didn't even listen to himself!
i just cant comprehend how someone who had such a good understanding of the dangers of the ocean chose to completely disregard safety rules
Plot twist. Certification entities going bankrupt because the world discovered that while crew inside submersibes is alive, it has not imploded.😂
He could have had split personality disorder, 🤔
"Never trust everyone, INCLUDING yourself" sounds to be true
He was under the impression that classification was a waste of time because anytime he’s ever seen a disaster it was due to operator error, not mechanical error. What he didn’t realize is the mechanical errors were already accounted for due to the classification.
The ocean is an unforgiving place that should be treated with respect with a hint of fear. Countless trials and experiments are run before even considering placing living beings inside a submersible vessel, let alone humans. The deliberate negligence and "breaking of rules" by Rush is just baffling.
I concur. I have been boating for 20+ years, including a few passages and you have to respect the sea. I once was stuck in a thunderstorm between Cuba and the Yucatan coast on my sailboat (long time ago) and shit, although the boat was a 41-footer I felt like a powerless pea in the middle of nowhere.
I don't know why he used carbon fibre its not built to handle extreme pressure
Every one knows it was a coffin
But innovation and 35 years since the last major disaster means anything is possible /s
@@TheNinthGeneration1 anything is possible.... within realm of reason
As a scuba diver, I’ve signed plenty of waivers and yes, there are clauses in these about death. The difference is that scuba diving involves a few decades of continuous research, regulations put in place by the various dive certification agencies and also addressing safety incidents as and when they happen. Similarly my equipment has had similar oversight and overview, including being substantially tested by the manufacturers and outside companies.
And that when the bends goes wrong in an industrial setting, in blows people to pieces rather than smashing them. Ahhh, the atmosphere. Still scary after all these years.
Props Mike for being the ONLY person weighing in on this debacle to recognise the nature of the circus surrounding this tragedy.
@SuperNostalgia.bro stfu no one asked you to preach.
this man is now my favorite yter 🗿
Lots of people have
...and contributing to said circus.
Lol the entire internet is making these videos what are you saying.
Thanks for putting out a long format on the legal side Mike. And for keeping it so respectful at the end.
There are plenty of videos on the bad engineering decisions but your summation appears to my non engineer knowledge to be on point.
I absolutely love how Rush himself said that "all these regulations are useless, there haven't been any accidents in a very long time"
YES, I WONDER WHY THAT IS
Is there a name for this type of error in reasoning? It seems like a fallacy of cause and effect.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a cognitive bias[2] whereby people with low ability, expertise, or experience regarding a type of task or area of knowledge tend to overestimate their ability or knowledge.
@@woodsplitter3274Dunning Kruger effect
It looks like a survirvorship bias for me, rather than Dunning-kruger effect.
@@woodsplitter3274people are mentioning dunning-kruger but I think it's def survivorship bias. Rush himself mentioned at one point that they (or he) wasn't worried about the technical aspects of the vessel because most sub accidents are caused by crew error, but that's probably because the engineering aspects of a vessel are (usually) highly regulated and therefore mistakes/problems/etc are caught and prevented.
A very classic and famouse example of this is from WWII, when trying to make aircraft safer to fly for bombers. According to an article by the BBC: "At the time, the American military asked mathematician Abraham Wald to study how best to protect airplanes from being shot down. The military knew armour would help, but couldn’t protect the whole plane or would be too heavy to fly well. Initially, their plan had been to examine the planes returning from combat, see where they were hit the worst - the wings, around the tail gunner and down the centre of the body - and then reinforce those areas.
But Wald realised they had fallen prey to survivorship bias, because their analysis was missing a valuable part of the picture: the planes that were hit but that hadn’t made it back. As a result, the military were planning to armour precisely the wrong parts of the planes. The bullet holes they were looking at actually indicated the areas a plane could be hit and keep flying - exactly the areas that didn't need reinforcing".
There is a line in James Cameron’s 1997 Titanic movie that, with the hindsight of the Titan submersible implosion, is pretty chilling. Early on, during one of the scenes showing the research submersibles diving to the Titanic wreck, one of the crew members on board remarks, while referring to the windows on board, “These windows are 9 inches thick and if they go, it's sayonara in two microseconds.” 😨
I legit wonder what James Cameron thinks of that line now given all that has happened.
It looks like in a few years Cameron will have more material for a movie called Titan
Yeah, I did came back and watched the first few minutes of the film for this!
When I was a young teen, I had learned about the danger of deep water pressure from watching James Cameron's Abyss.
It's happened before. Quite a few times, actually.
That was an overestimate. Between 0.2 and 1 ms is closer.
A small detail often not mentioned. Not only was the viewport only rated for 1300 meters, but in any responsible operation, the rated depth is considered the absolute limit and never actually deployed at such distance beyond emergency. Simply put if it was rated for 1300 meters, professionals would avoid taking it beyond 700, let alone exceeding it multiple times over.
...i.e.: there's the recommended safety rating vs. the absolute safety limit (like the listed carrying capacity for an elevator car vs. how much more weight the elevator car really could withstand before breaking down) -- the point of which is to establish a "safety margin" for regular, everyday operation.
When will these anti-regulation idiots get it into their heads? Safety regulations & best practices exist for a reason!
Waivers never stopped lawyers before. But as a practical matter, how much money does OceanGate even have? They probably won't have any customers anymore.
Maybe it will go on their insurance company
They deserve to lose everything they have and even be in debt if they don’t have enough
@@SoulDelSol I would be shocked if anyone would have insured Oceangate for liability.
OceanGate has no money, certainly nothing that families of billionaires would be interested in. That’s why OceanGate corners, not hubris as much as it is they had no significant multimillionaire investors like James Cameron to fund them to design and test a real vehicle.
It’s been said in a few locations that OceanGate wasn’t making any money. They charged high prices because sailing to the middle of the ocean to dive in a custom submersible is tremendously expensive. They were trying to grow the business so they could eventually scale up.
@@caughtinthecrossfire8871Particularly since their submersible was not just unclassified but actually refused classification by DNV.
When a film director knows more about submarines than a company developing one, you know the company is not trustworthy.
Normally yes, but Cameron is highly respected in that field.
James Cameron is, surprisingly, one of the most qualified people to talk about deep sea diving. He has set numerous records in the field, and is highly knowledgeable on the topic (he's even gone and seen the Titanic several times, and his first voyage down is what inspired him to make the Titanic movie)
James cameron is one of the people who have more hands on experience on deep sea exploration in the world, it fact it looks like making movies is the side hustle in this case, it is even calculated that he has spent more time in the titanic than the captain of the titanic
James Cameron is far more than a film director. He's a person who is knowledgeable about the environment in which he chooses to be in - a quality everyone should have.
People need to stop being lazy.
Everyone aboard, perhaps save the 19 year old (maybe) knew the risks, and chose to proceed.
James Cameron was not just a "director" he built his own submersible and traveled to the marinan trench which is 3 times the depth of the titanic. He was way more knowledgeable than Stockton Rush and more experienced 🤷
Those waivers cannot protect them when they were told and knew of the problems and faults of the submersible and ignored every warning
As I see in ur name the 3 letters....
Jesus loves and will forgive you but do not abuse that
"If you confess with ur mouth that Jesus is Lord and belive God raised him from dead you shall be saved"
@@edward-mihaineagu3607dude youtube added numbers to our names its a coincidence.
@@edward-mihaineagu3607 dude what, its a handle, plus its "6660" not "666" get a grip
That business should not be legal, if they have not pass any registration. I had to sign a paper for my cats surgery, if that person was not an actual registered vet or did something dangerous then it is still their fault.
They could just say they were blasting Megadeth when the engineers were speaking and can say they didn’t pick up on everything that was being said.
Lawsuits are never off the table. The company is going to have a tough time finding new customers so likely it will go out of business anyway and maybe file for bankruptcy.
The titanic has claimed more lives I guess
EDIT: wow thanks for the likes!
😁 I just ate a 4lb cheese block shaped like the titanic,my action has absolutely no value nor purpose,just thought it was neat the cheese was in such a shape😊.
Now to drink 32oz of ExLax, gonna see who wins the 4lbs of dairy products I consumed or the laxatives 🌝
💀I just ate a 4lb cheese block shaped like the titanic, my action has absolutely no value, nor purpose, just thought it was neat the cheese was in such a shape.😭
Now to drink 32oz of ExLax, gonna see who wins the 4lb of dairy products I consumed or the laxatives... 😳
Rich people as well lol
And Stockton's wife will probably be like. I didnt know any of this
Still gaining xp to this day
2:48 the fact that one man has visited the titanic 33 times without issue is enough evidence to show that they neglected the submarine.
Nargeolet had made 35 dives and he still got on the submersible.
@@andysmith1996 yeah he's the most baffling of them all. He's a Titanic expert, and well aware of the extreme danger of deep sea diving even with fully certified equipment
Quite why he willingly went on this thing eludes me
@@Yetaxa Yeah, I don't think it's as simple as saying he swallowed the Kool Aid or he wanted the money. We may never know why he thought it was a good idea.
The controller itself has had a ton of issues over the years with it. The particular Logitech controller is used only over Bluetooth and that in and of itself has issues but mostly that model in particular can randomly disconnect and if you rely on wireless technology then you need to have a wired backup controller ready
I wish it connected via Bluetooth... My receiver broke.
Within 2-3 meters it is pretty good, after that it'll work if there isn't too much metal between it and the receiver.
I had that exact controller and as soon as I saw it I recoiled in pure disgust. I have had that damn thing DC on me so many times. Even the other Logitech wired controller I had was bad. The buttons would just randomly stop working.
Game Over
Yeah that’s quite common
The switch pro controller in particular has this issue with botw for some reason
That controller should have been wired and using a more modern variation to ensure proper reliability
That's what I was thinking. Trusting bluetooth for reliability is a questionable choice
David Lockridge losing his job after blowing the whistle and trying to keep the Titan disaster from happening reminds me of John Leotine and the crash of Alaska Air 261. Leotine went to the NTSB about unsafe maintenance practices at the airline and lost his job for it. He even went into his own personal records after the crash and found that his order to replace the jackscrew assembly on the plane used for flight 261 had been overwritten.
Thinking about it, the two incidents are eerily similar in terms of disregarding safety.
Question for you Mike. If someone who did a crime attempts to bribe a judge, can the judge take the bribe money then add "bribing a judge" to their charges?
They get charged with attempting to bribe the judge.
That would still make them complicit and compromise their ethics to the extent of possible disbarment.
@@kaitlanparks8061So, something like this?
Criminal: What happened to the old judge?
New Judge: He accepted a bribe from you and was found out. His trials next.
Criminal: (Realizing he's even more screwed) Crap.
@@kaitlanparks8061😮m9😊😮mgh😊😊mm the 😮5n😢😮m 🎉444hy😅6😅😅i😅8m😢🎉
There was an incident on an earlier dive where they got to the bottom and discovered one of the thrusters was installed backwards, but they continued the dive anyway. If recordings are recovered and they contain evidence of ignoring problems to continue the dive, I'd imagine that would shift the legal balance as well.
The only recordings they would have is by camera or phone. The sub didn't have any radio communication on board. They communicated through a texting computer.
Communications between the submersible and its mother ship will also likely be scrutinized. The ship could communicate with the submersible by text messages, and it’s required to communicate every 15 minutes, according to the archived website of
Thank you. When I first heard of the sub missing, the first thing I asked out loud was “isn’t it a protected monument. I thought the guy who first discovered the wreck went through the necessary steps to get the step protected and off limits to anyone without a research permit.” I mean the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald is so heavy protected that you can’t even sail within a certain radius of the wreck site on top of the water, let alone dive down to it. I sincerely hope that this incident will get government bodies together to discuss further protective measures. I think we’ve gleaned all the necessary information that we can from the wreck. There’s really no need to go down their anymore, except to study the natural environment.
Go away you ducking nazi
Agreed
Agreed!
The Fitz is is Canadian waters and thus can be restricted by law. The Titanic is not in Canadian waters therefore the same laws do not apply. Generally the law of the sea prohibits diving war graves such as sunken warships, but they are just suggestions. If it's in international waters there really is nothing stopping anyone from doing it. Who are you going to call? The shipwreck cops? Even China has been caught salvaging sunken British warships because they decided to and there really isn't anything that can be done legally. A sunken cargo or passenger ship? Ultimately only stupidity and death can stop you.
They cant really ban you from diving in international waters. Protected monument means you cant touch or take from the wreck. Im a Michigan citizen. You can boat over the edmund all you want. You can legally dive it even. We dont do this simply because the families asked that they be left in peace... and any decent person will respect that.
I want to know how victims can get financial reprieve if Stockton is dead and likely uninsured.
About the game controller, the sub wouldn't have worked at all without bluetooth/wifi. All of the moving parts were on the outside of the sub, not directly connected to anything inside the sub. It seems the sub would have failed immediately if they had drilled holes in it to pass wires through. That's one way it was unlike any other submersible (and more dangerous). The entire operation of the sub apparently relied on constant radio signal connections. That leads to the question of how signals got out of a carbon fiber titanium capsule (both of those things block radio signals). Were the control signals going through the plexiglass porthole? Everything about the sub is "are you crazy?".
I have no idea how the sub was built, but having worked with some hi pressure hydraulic systems i can tell you that its not that hard to build and interface that will allow wired signals to safely transmit through a pressure vessel.
Stockton Rush managed to band the rules of deep-sea dive during his first few dives with the submersible "Titan", but willingly or unwillingly "forgot the affect of wear and tear", which probably was the actual cause of implosion!
I think the game controller is still pretty relevant criticism though. The Military uses modified X-box controllers which you showed, Stockton wasn't even using that. He was using a modified Logitech controller which if you actually use those controllers you know is a cheaper knock off version. It works but it's not quite as robust or well designed. While I don't think the controller played any role in what happened to them I do think it serves as a good illustration that OceanGate cheeped out on even the cheapest of components. James Cameron on his own submersible had in depth conversations about which kind of metal would be better to use on the nuts and washers because each and every detail was super important to him. What this choice shows is that Stockton didn't carefully evaluate each component to see what would be better, but instead the largest determining factor was price. What's really sad is that this choice only saved them about 20 bucks, but it does bring into question what other kind of choices were made while engineering the sub.
Very good summary. I think the few dives that OceanGate did manage to conduct prior reinforced the idea that the sub would actually work yet each dive took it closer to its last.
Seagate makes hard drives
@@nether_bat Fair point. Mental autocorrect turned on. XD
OceanGate. The Russian roulette of submersibles.
"How many dives before it implodes? Nobody knows for sure. But you can find out for yourself if you deposit $250K into our company account. See you in the next dive, mission specialist." 😄😆😅
Is that what they call confirmation bias?
@@pbxn-3rdx-85percent Schrodinger's diving bell :D
It's very unfortunate that those people passed, but there was another person on board the mothership that I follow on RUclips. His channel name is dallmyd. He didn't know which dive he would be on that day, but thankfully he wasn't on the first. He was actually the last person to dive on Titan, but they only went to 13,000 ft. You could legit say that he was the last survivor on that sub. He also did a video about it. Talk about dodging a bullet, whoo
i thought he said he was in the titan weeks before the incident
@@CommanderFox2020 Thats right beb38138 has there facts up there arse.
You forgot to mention that the titan sub was not allowed by law to carry passengers because it was an experimental vessel, so they tried to go around that little inconvenience by calling the passengers " mission specialists" 😅
They even gear them up with safety helmets and jump suits with ocean gate logo on them for the pictures 😂
I don't think that's accurate...
@@CheeryRhymes it is
@@nineteenfortyeight6762 what national law says you can't carry paying passengers in international waters on an experimental vessel?
I've also heard it was because of restrictions around the Titanic wreck because they don't want it be a tourist site.
I also heard it was for liability reasons to limit what somebody could claim in court.
I also heard it was for PR reasons especially in regard to other businesses in the industry.
Etc etc
that isnt even the begiining look up the ociangate 3
what law, and from what nation is this law? There are uncertified submersibles taking passengers regularly. NatGeo dives on uncertified submersibles. Ace Videos just released an hour long trip on one here on yt. Certification is a money scam by governments. If the operator pushes boundaries, tragedy is likely in any sub.
Man, I can’t even imagine the fear while in that sub knowing you’re going to die any minute now and everyone is believing everything will be fine when you’re thousands of miles deep sea and it’s pitch black outside. :S
Astonishingly the titanic is 2.5 miles underwater. It’s thousand six feet for sure
How do you figure they were thousands of miles deep? They were going down to about 12,600 feet. There are 5,280 feet to a mile. So that’s about 2.4 miles, not thousands!
They died instantaneously. Implosion is arguably the fastest death they could have asked for.
@@suew4609 *PLay StuPud Games, WIN StuPud Prizes!!!*
*In My Life, Every small ERRor that I have Ever Made,*
*No One Ever Cried any Tears over me!!!*
@@rexanator100 Yeah, but up to a minute they knew....falling vertically down, falling on each other with gunshot blast cracking sounds coming from the aft ( they messaged those sounds back to the Mother Ship) .....the terror they must of felt knowing it was almost over for them must of been horrible. It's not the actual moment of Death but the moments leading up to it that are mentally , emotionally a Nightmare sometimes. We don't yet know for sure what those banging sounds that were coming out every 30 minutes like clockwork. It could of been more than a minute before it was mercifully over......I was told once I had 2 days left to live. Those 2 days starting from the second I was told it ....were horrible. Submarines that have sunk with Sailors have had reported "Banging Sounds" coming from the Sub where they were still alive....so who knows yet all that happened.
One correction: PH Nargeolet didn’t pay to be on there, he was working with oceangate to be their tour guide.
I dont think any of them did, he did 3 or 4 "test runs" that where supposed to be the real deal. a youtuber on here dodge the bullet and said he got invited out to go on it for free, all he had to do was make a video on it.
Yes, PH Nargeolet didn't pay indeed. Unfortunately, he was used as "bait" to get the billionaires on board. Nargeolet was regarded as the world's expert on the Titanic. Stockton probably pitched the deal to potential clients as a once in a lifetime opportunity cause Nargeolet might have had an exclusive contract with OceanGate as a tour guide. Furthermore, being accompanied by Nargeolet and Stockton would have given the clients a false sense of security.
@@szk4023 totally agree. Rush was a very calculating narcissist who saw tourists as dollar signs.
Them: pays 250,000 dollars
The submarine cost: 50 dollars
They just released supposed communications from the sub to the ship. It appears the sub descended way too fast, the crew also reported hearing noises in the back of the sub.
"IF" that was the official communications. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't believe they have claimed it to be it's official communications? Because there are a lot of faked audio/media for it right now. Although it seems plausible, it could be
Its not confirmed.
Apparently they would have heard the sounds of the beginning of delamination… in other words the hull beginning to deteriorate under the pressure!
The saddest part is they couldn't do anything about it, because the motors stopped working due to loss of power caused by the delamination process at the back where all of the stuff (batteries, other gear) were stored.
@@vinceee_r they didn’t say it was. “supposed communications” maybe learn how to read and comprehend?
A death waiver is unlikely to stand as under US law there was 'gross negligence' which this was and that would mean the waiver could be void
This is interesting.
So, it essentially says: "We have built a piece of junk out of materials nobody uses, which was not approved by anyone, and which will probably kill you," and all those people wholeheartedly agreed.
They are approved. Just not for human transporting, only RC`s.
Experimental vehicle, and they trusted the guy who made it, that it was safe enough to ride in.
@@VenturiLifeTo be fair, he bet his own life on it being safe.
It just turned out he was a terrible gambler...
I mean, if the guy who built it was so confident it worked that he was coming with us, that would be pretty reassuring. It's a shame it turned out he had a reckless disregard for his own life as well.
Yeah but here is the thing, and this is why this element is an important omission in the death risk agreement. If you were told that you were going to ride some experimental submarine made with uncommon materials you would probably say "No why the heck!" But if you were told that this experimental vessel was developed with collaboration from NASA, Boeing, and a renowned University, it suddenly makes it sound much more trustworthy and reliable
as a lawyer in UK a lawsuit will (in my opinion) will definitely happen and not just once.
Not only someone will be sued, they will also be prosecuted and jailed. The powers-that-be will either find a way or legislate a way. and get around ex post facto prohibitions OceanGate will be bankrupted, shut down and someone who knew or should have known and either did nothing or didn't do enough will go to prison. Same for someone who could have and/or should have tried to stop them or reported them to someone who could stop them.
Oceangate has no assets.
@chrismc410 Nobody is going to jail over this. The CEO/“inventor” is dead.
@@Sniperboy5551 they will find a way to have someone's head over that, even if the CEO/Founder is dead
Problem with the controller is that it was Bluetooth which means if it disconnects then you are done but that doesn’t happen in the military because they only use wired
And the operator of the controllers life isn't in its hands....just a periscope or a drone..
The only thing that makes Bluetooth unreliable is all the radio noise it has to contend with up here on the surface. Salt water is basically opaque to GHz range radio waves making the radio environment even just 10-20 meters down effectively silent. So a Bluetooth device operating on a sub underwater is operating under the most ideal conditions possible and is just as reliable as a wired connection in that kind of environment.
Keep in mind that controllers used are often used with wires, or have a wired option. They used a wireless (Bluetooth I believe) controller. And a third party one at that. Third party controllers don’t exactly have the best reputation in terms of reliability.
It saddens me when i read comments saying that "they deserved to die." (On Facebook.) You are so right, Mike. These were real people and it is sad.
Amazing anyone would say that.
Were they ill advised? Absolutely. Did they "deserve" to die? Of course not. People tend to speak without really thinking.
It’s 14yo try hards that think saying outlandish disgusting things is something akin to doing a wheelie on their dirt bike daddy bought. It’ll definitely impress all the cool kids!
That and radical anti-capitalist leftist ideologues who think anyone rich is a horrible person profiting off the untimely deaths of 100% of their employees and corporate boot lickers.
Completely ignoring the fact that there’s plenty of people who are wealthy as a result of life saving inventions/pharmaceuticals/safety innovations and that list goes on and on and on.
So basically long story short; people who have zero healthy mental capacities and mostly just revolting troglodytes most likely not contributing a single thing to the world and are almost assuredly jobless and have been for their entire lives.
That money could have been used to do so much good, like charity or cancer research, actually good responsible billionaires. They used it as a cruise to visit the gravesite of another tragedy. I feel no sympathy for them as many others don't
They'd probably never say it in person, especially not to the very real families affected by this. people get too confident sitting nameless behind a screen.
I am gonna be honest I have no sympathy for that bell end Rush. The rest rip though.
As soon as I heard “experimental” I knew that it should be tested for 9+ years before being approved or even used
I see what you did there ;)
@@slamdunktiger what did I say I just said they should have kept testing I am not a scientist or a engineer I just said what should have been said
Now, why do you think 2 multi millionaires missed that very SIMPLE part when INVESTING their lives into this trip, because they never invested a lot of money like that to get that rich.
1:04 in the navy's defense, they went looking for the evidence of implosion pretty much as soon as soon as the S&R efforts started. Combing through the deep sonar readings is difficult and inexact, it relies on likelihoods and guesswork. It took them about that long to find a sound that was *probably* an implosion that was in *roughly* the right area.
Your scenario is unlikely as I guarantee the Navy knew before everyone else did as they actively monitor and listen to everything as it's necessary for watching out for submarine activity from other countries then there is the fact the hydrophones have been good enough since about the 80s to know where the sound came from and have a good idea of its size and materials involved. Point is they had it figured out in a few hours at most.
You got a source for that? Cuz my understanding is basically the opposite. We know exactly what an implosion sounds like, and there are automated alert systems that listen for the distinct waveform an implosion makes (along with many other types of sounds) and will trigger an alert.
I do not agree. Recording ANY sound on these is incredibly rare. Anything like an explosion/implosion would set off countless alarms immediately. The Navy knew with a 95% likely hood that the sub imploded before any rescue was ever launched.(5% being someone throwing weighted dynamite into ocean in the tiny area sub was in.) They chose to remain silent.
Negligence on the company's end makes any "waiver" null and void.
The fact there's potentially proof that they fired an engineer who called out how it was unsafe, would open the company to wrongful death lawsuits, and a prison time for anybody involved in the cover up.
Nah but imagine risking your life with a 50 dollar controller and no backup like it's some solve a game
Yeah exactly
Yes - Also, you'll notice that the picture of the military use of the controller has it hard-wired, not wireless.
The UK-US treaty might apply to Canada, either partially or fully. When the Titanic sank, Newfoundland (the usual base for Titanic expeditions) was part of British North America. Even the parts of Canada that were de facto independent fell under British foreign policy until after WW-I, and it wasn't until 1926/1931 that they became mostly de jure independent.
Full independence eventually happened in 1982, when control of their constitution finally transferred.
I have to question why Ireland akso isn’t in this treaty
The ship was made in Belfast that at the time was in Ireland (while under the zuK) sure currently it’s in Northern Ireland but you would think they would want that stuff protected too
yeah but since canada gained independence, these laws don't apply anymore
@@theoneandonlyhooda Independence didn't just erase all existing treaties and laws in an instant, it's much more complex than that. The process of Canadian independence took over 100 years, involving many acts of Parliament on both sides of the Atlantic.
@@Murph9000 Does Canada still recognize that treaty?
@@theoneandonlyhooda I don't know if Canada recognises it. My comment was to raise the complexity of the international jurisdictions involved in the time between the sinking and today.
at least they died quick instead of slowly dying from the lack of oxygen
The Navy system had never herd a small Submersible imploded before. It did take time to review the data and determine if that sound in all of that back round noise was the Submersible. To determine if that sound could be the small Submersible imploding takes a lot of time to sort out the "one" sound from all of the back round noise that is in the ocean.
A side question:
How much time has to pass before for taking things from the Titanic to shift from Grave Robbing to Archaeology?
I don’t know how true it is, but apparently the carbon fiber that was used was past it’s shelf life and he bought it from Boeing at a discount price, that’s how he could claim Boeing “worked” on his sub. That being said I don’t know how true it is, but at this point it wouldn’t surprise me. Loved the video Mike can’t wait to see the updates.
As far as mass grave, most passengers were on the deck when the Titanic sank. Bodies in salt water float, which means that most of them were dispersed over the surface of the ocean. They decomposed mostly over miles of ocean on the surface, or consumed by marine life. That said diving to view the Titanic even if free should land those people in a mental institution. The Titanic can be viewed safely, comfortably with modern tech from your home.
That’s kind of flawed logic, my friend. You could say that about many exotic places around the world, and simply say (I could view those places through my phone) OK yeah so what’s your point that we don’t travel that we don’t explore that we don’t adventure? Seeing something through the screen and experiencing it in person is way way different. Now yes I will admit. This was definitely a devastating travesty that was completely avoidable. If the submersible would have just gone through normal protocol and been checked for safety reasons this would have been prevented. But yes, I do agree with you. It is a very sad story.
Brother I've seen worse people on the planet
A lot of the passengers were trapped below the deck especially 2nd and 3rd class passengers. Only 10 people from 2nd class survived because some of them claimed to be 1st class. So your logic doesn’t make sense most of them were not on the deck when it sank.
sure, I'll go on vacation to Maldives....through my iPad...
Additionally the ship they launched from was registered in Canada and in that country you can't sign away your rights, so the death warrant wouldn't even show up in court.
Just by reading that waiver was definitely a reason to pause. Referring to death so many times. These men were educated and couldn't see through this contract. Wow! Scary. Money did not save their life. But sense of adventure sure did.
12:10 "US military uses modified xbox controllers to pilot drones"
Drones. Not a vehicle full of people. That is a huge difference.
@Steve-td3ig Very important detail(s) not mentioned in generic AI videos.
I highly appreciate the fact that at 12:18 they are actually playing Halo 3
Great video! Jam-packed with information, moved along at a good pace, and was entertaining to watch. Loved it!
Glad you enjoyed it!
It would seem that the defining factor in giving an individual confidence in regards to safety is the fact that the owner of the vessel was willing to participate in the venture alongside his fellow passengers.
My thoughts exactly.
Just means the owner was self-deluding, and not just gaslighting others.
It would be no consolation to me if I'd lost a loved one to know that the fool responsible for the debacle had paid the price of his folly along with my loved one.
@@smartalek180 No, me neither. What exactly is your point?
My issue with the controller is not that it was used, but it was another area where cost was shaved. There were reports in several dives there were connection issues witht the control.
They had a bunch of billionaires and chose one of the cheapest controllers possible
my issue with it is that they used the wireless version of the controller rather than the wired. you cannot risk the controller disconnecting or dying
@@ShatteredSquare2 For a sub that explores the titanic, I expected a complex system to control the sub. THE SUB IN IRON LUNG IS MORE COMPLEX THAN THE TITAN
Complexity is a double edge sword
One one hand it gives you more control when mastered but in another it’s a bitch in a panic due to its conceluted systems
It’s always a balance of practicality and effectiveness
When you come up with your own custom controller, you end up with a more expensive and less reliable product. The mass market is by far and away the best (and free) testing program you could ask for. Plus, you can afford to purchase multiple controllers and receivers to bring aboard for 1/1,000,000th the cost of creating your own with even lower reliability.
The controller wasn’t “the least concerning part” of the design like the video suggests, the controller was a good design. We do this all the time in engineering - it is way way safer than doing something yourself, badly.
Further, the controller isn’t even required to recover the submersible. So if you burnt through your primary, secondary, and emergency then you can still surface.
The pressure vessel was the stupid design. People jumping on the controller just have no idea what they’re talking about.
If Lochridge's engineering report had been stapled to the liability waiver no one would have signed it.
I can see James Cameron being called as an expert witness if it goes to court.
The ceo of ocean gate is the best witness he himself said he broke rules to make this submarine all they have to do it show the video of him saying he broke the rules like they did in this video, that's pretty much case closed as far as a lawsuit against ocean gate, but I'm sure they will have expert witnesses as well testify just to further bring the point home on how dangerous it was to be in that submarine.
Oh, he absolutely will be called to testify.
I'm amazed that sub survived ANY deep dives, to be honest.
Thank you for that comment at the end. A lot of the people making jokes about them dying seem to forget that while they were dumb accepting it, it's still people that died and we should give them respect. Social media as been desensitizing us and we sometimes forget how bad a situation really is.
The issue is it happened to a bunch of rich people so why should we care is why people are making jokes which I can't blame people to an extent
@@kobra6660 you are a idiot, maybe one your family members will die and no one cares. Idiot
@@butterflycandy_ Exactly, they can't blame people for being rich, that's stupid. And there was a "kid" in there.
People that make uniformed decisions while engaging in extremely life threatening whimsies are to be pitied, but in no way respected.
@@maxbrazil3712 Like the video stated, they could have been lied to but whatever. Everyone deserves respect, you seem to dislike them just because they're rich. If it was someone you knew your point would be completely different.
4:30 one thing I know about waivers is insane negligence especially when the company appears as flippant as they did often toss those things into the teash
only gross misrepresentation destroys these. This fool actually believed in the sub. Hubris is not actionable negligence. Unless you can prove he knew he was going to his death....
Right off the bat "Air tight like the sub" 💀
9:49 It was indeed a good plug. Good enough that I finally subscribed after all those years to pay respects.
I wanna say, a youtuber canceled his trip because of how the submarine was functioning
Thank you for reminding everyone that these were real people who lost their lives. Families go on who mourn and grieve for them who do not understand this tragedy.
These "people" are billionaires, they did not make their money in a moral way. Given one is a billionaire from the middle east, it's highly likely he owns slaves and mistreats them. These "people" don't deserve empathy, since clearly they had none otherwise they wouldn't be a billionaire
Legit, I understand if people want to 'meme'-ing the tragedy, but when they do, they always forgot that this people have family that care about them
i think we should eat the rich
I personally can't feel sympathy for them. These are billionaires who decided to spend 250k on a trip to a grave because it's "cool" instead of actually being productive with it. That's like buying a thousand Rolex watches in front of starving children, so much good could be done with that money but they decided to do this shit.
@@koresaliva God bless you & give you peace. ❤️
To try and defend the US Navy a little bit about the noises they heard, those hydrophone devices that are scattered around the ocean aren't monitored 24/7 by someone sitting at a computer screen, it was something they had to aquire then comb through the data to find the abnormalities or sounds that can be related to a implosion event. Plus the ocean is a massive place so it'd be like trying to hear coin hit the floor at the NBA finals with a packed arena. I'm glad that Navy vet brought that up in his video because I was pretty curious about why the Navy waited so long to tell anyone they heard something.
SOSUS
Sound Surveillance System (SOSUS) was the original name for a submarine detection system based on passive sonar developed by the United States Navy to track Soviet submarines. The system's true nature was classified with the name and acronym SOSUS classified as well.
IUSS is manned 24/7. It’s very hard to comb through the data, except for the fact that underwater explosions are very obvious. Imagine listening for people whispering and a grenade goes off - yeah, obvious. Explosions will be audible thousands of miles.
The US Navy did not wait to tell anyone - they informed the incident commander (USCG) almost immediately and when the USCG confirmed the sub was in fact wrecked, they stated what I just said themselves.
Yeah but the fact that oceangate crew heard the implosion or saw it happening on the sound sensors and still didn't tell is a waste of resources and just shows what a joke the whole company was
The US Navy didn’t know what they heard. They had never recorded a submersible implosion at 4km - because it had never happened before.
Submarines at 400m, dozens of those but never anything so small and so deep.
When they were told WHEN it went missing then they could go looking.
The main problem with the controller was that it was bluetooth and not wired.
Why did they (and you) say that they lost contact right after departure? They were in contact with the sub until it got 90% of the way to Titanic, then the sub said they were getting alarms and decided to make their way back. The sub made it about 5% of the way back to the surface before contact was lost
The thing about all this that still gets me is how the Navy seemed to know what happened but didn't tell anyone for 4 days.
I think rather than “know”, they had strong evidence (sonar results) to suggest what happened. When humans are involved, we tend to hope there is some chance until proven otherwise.
they call it the "silent service" for a reason
They probably did tell someone. But obviously not anyone who would then go and blab to the media.
I think they just didn't want to draw attention to the hydrophones they have all over the ocean until they knew they had to. If the sub was somehow miraculously recovered they wouldn't have said anything.
@derekwarr8567 a) They couldn't be 100% sure. b) The search and rescue mission is the responsibility of the Coast Guard, and this mission doesn't stop until all hope is lost. See Navy explanation here, from 7:40 on:
ruclips.net/video/UHrjg_mOg5A/видео.html
See also explanation by Ex-Commandant of the U.S. Coast Guard here:
www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/21/titanic-sub-coast-guard-search/
“The Coast Guard’s default is we will always launch for safety of life at sea - and always holding out hope that they do rise to the surface, we launch a rescue swimmer, and they’re all recovered and live to see the next day.”
One thing that really made me sick was seeing people joke and make memes about it. I'm not too fond of billionaire prices just as much as the next guy but I agree with you. These where real people who lost their lives and had their family's lives changed forever. Made me see truly how sick man kind has become
Agree on this. The celebration by hand out seeking trash is disgusting.
metapahorically eat the rich.
Learn human history dum-dum.
They fucked around and found out, no sympathy
Dear God they made the decision..I'm just amazed how you can become a billionaire and be so dumb at the same time
I love how they kept saying on news reports, “the world is watching” “the rescue of the century” “everyone is praying” but in reality, literally no one gave a shit about a bunch of rich cats stuck at the bottom of the sea, good riddance honestly
For those who are unaware as well, Oceangate approached Mr.Beast to offer them a tour of the titanic as Mr.Beast stated on Twitter. He turned down the offer and then after the event, realized how lucky he was for declining the offer.
Had he accepted, we would have lost a good man doing good things with their money.
Mr Beast is a millionaire with a brain, of course he wouldn't go on it
Same thing was offered to James Cameron. Apparently Oceangate was trying to get famous clients on their Titanic expeditions as some sort of promotion vehicle.
0:08 it wasn't an Xbox controller. It was a shitty Logitech controller that is only recognized as an Xbox controller on a PC. Had one of those for quite a while actually, it's shit btw.
Some modern submarines do however, actually use proper Xbox controllers to navigate, which still sounds absurd to me but also does make sense in a stupid manner.
But yeah, basically they even tried to save a penny or two on such an important thing as the FUCKING NAVIGATION SYSTEM
honestly wouldn’t have any issue with them using a PS2/3/4/5 or Xbox controller AS LONG AS ITS WIRED!
The company and all executives should be sued into submission. It was 14+ years of negligence and lies
Funny thing is, carbon fiber could be a legitimately good choice for a sub, thanks to how buoyancy works that deep. But it has to be done properly, unlike on the Titan...
To be exact, upon digging a bit deeper in the literature and talking to people in the field (ultra-deep submersibles), it turns out that a composite submarine actually makes a lot of sense. Deep diving composite subs have been explored and even tested successfully going back to the 1980s.
Submersibles fail typically due to buckling (not pure compressive failure) and composites can be quite stiff, which is what you want to resist buckling. On a specific mass basis, composites for stiffness are a win.
Normally for submersible objects, you don’t care much about mass. E.g., a composite SCUBA tank for sport divers makes no sense, as you’d need to add weights to make it neutrally buoyant.
But as you go ultra deep (> 2 km down), metal pressure vessels become negatively buoyant (i.e., they sink), so deep-diving subs need external buoyancy devices (typically floats made of syntactic foams on Alvin or-going back-tanks of gasoline on Trieste). If you want a sub that doesn’t have these external buoyancy devices, i.e., you want a sub that is light, slippery, and streamlined, then a composite cylinder with titanium endcaps starts to look very attractive.
The issue with the Titan was not the conceptual design, but rather it had not been proofed to the depths it was bringing crew and passengers. That was nuts.
The controller concept came from the military. It’s actually a great idea when it works as it should.
The battery is risk for fire with enclosed container mixed with oxygen.
zero evidence the controller was at fault. The fixation on it comes from know nothing trash media and know nothings repeating their words. The hull was obviously at fault, not a meaningless controller. They didnt lose control, they were trying to go 3x deeper than when implosion happened. The experimental hull collapsed under pressure do to fatigue. Real subs are made of incredibly strong steel.
@@jakewilson7112 the U.S. military uses controllers like these on their attack subs. You are correct on everything. The batteries from the controller did nothing. Every person in their probably had a phone on them with similar batteries.
@@JerryDSMdon't they normally use cable controller, not Bluetooth ones?
@@schwingedeshaehers i believe you are correct on that, from the videos that I have seen.
Another point to why the army didn't point it out was because when Ocean Gate first lost contact they delayed the report by like 8 hours or so if they were to announce when they first lost contact like they were supposed too it might of not been overlooked for so long
wouldnt have mattered. Surface ship lost contact because everyone imploded. Navy willfully allowed millions to be wasted.
10:52 Well then the 9/11 Memorial and OKC Bombing memorials shouldn’t be tourist sites then.
Guess what they are.
I have a question. What if they put in the waiver, "it's adding more and more damage each time and it's only a matter of time before it blows. Submersible roulette " would that legally keep their waiver legitimate?
No it won't!