Alaska Airlines 737 MAX Loses Door Plug - Airline Pilots Breakdown the Event and ATC Comms
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
- Airline pilots Gonky, Mover, and Wombat (and special guest Wags) breakdown the recent Alaska Airlines 737 MAX mishap in which a door plug departed the aircraft resulting in a depressurization event. Join the channel to watch LIVE every Monday at 8PM ET or to see full episodes of The Mover and Gonky Show. You can also join in on LIVE Q&As with the Mover Mailbag: / @cwlemoine
Every Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between. Send your topic ideas to cwlemoine at cwlemoine.com! Featuring Wombat (E-2, F/A-18, A320, Mustang Driver, and Bestselling Author) and Wags (Senior Producer, Eagle Dynamics)
www.cwlemoine.com
www.trmatson.com
The appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD) visual information does not imply or constitute DoD endorsement.
Views presented are my own and do not represent the views of DoD or its Components.
Links:
www.cbsnews.co...
VAS Aviation ATC Comms:
• FUSELAGE BLOWN OUT MID...
737 driver here..... the other day after departing a sea level airport when climbing through 16,000 ft, our pressurization system indicated a differental of 6.0 psi and cabin alt of about 1500 ft...... thats alot higher differential than i expected at that altitude.... at 30,000ft plus, the differential is usually around 8.0 psi..... in other words, it makes sense why it went "boom" even at 16,000.....
And adding my two cents, this crew did an amazing job..... the shock factor and of this happening so suddenly had to have been startling...... we arm chair quarterback these incidents and nit pick saying "why did they do that, I would do this" etc.... but like you guys said, anyone in the hot seat will show they are a human.... stress and other human factors will come out and play a roll... no one is perfect in a stressful emergency situation. ...... in the end they did what needed to be done and got on the ground safely with noone injured...... its a perfect outcome... great job.....
I think the pilot on the radio did fantastic. There was that moment of holy crap What happened and are we gonna crash? And then she calmed down pretty quick As she realized, the plane was still flying.. I'd fly with her any day.
The boss-level coolness and CRM on that flight can't be over-emphasized. Kudos!
I want to hear more about Gonky and Wombat hitting the coyote on an Oklahoma back road and screaming like little girls 9:30. When is their spin-off show coming?
I was the captain of a 747 that suffered a 3 square metre hull breach, at FL290, in 2008. Re Gonky's comment about the aircraft coming apart. I don't think that was huge risk in this case, as the failure was all contained within a door frame. The risk rises dramatically if the breach is outside of the framed area. I know that a 747 is much larger than a 737, but in our case the aircraft depressurised entirely in 13 seconds. The cockpit door stayed closed. There was no general misting within the aircraft, although cabin crew near the breach could see a 'tornado' at the hole. Declaration of an 'emergency' would mean little to nothing in many parts of the world. In particular, in areas for which English is not the native language, going off the ICAO script will confuse things. And the masks may be uncomfortable in the sim, but from FL290 on the way down we were far too busy to notice any issues with them.
Quantas Airlines flight 30 London to Melbourne with stopover at Hong Kong. I remember seeing this on an episode of Mayday on discovery.
Well done to you and your crew for bringing your damaged aircraft safely down with no injuries!
@@katanamaki9015 I'm not sure that there ever was a TV episode about it, and to be honest, I rather hope not. The medias' accuracy was pretty appalling. Overall it was a interesting day in the office, but I think that any half decent airline crew would have managed the same outcome. I was mostly pleased that we didn't screw up. By the way, Qantas is a ACRONYM, so there's no "U" in its spelling.
Ahhh! I should have done my own spell check before posting. Another auto correct issue.
It was a while ago but I thought I saw something about your incident on Discovery Canada. Or it might have been discussed by Mentour pilot on RUclips.
As a non pilot I do understand the importance of emergency flight training and I'm sure it could be said that your incident was simply a test of your skills of an in flight emergency.
Boeing confirmed the cockpit door opening after a depress event is deliberate. It seems they might not have communicated that to anyone.
Yeah, I flew 737s and never heard that.
I had a patient who was on the design team for Boeing cockpit doors. I tried to get some deep intel on what made them so strong against entry. He wouldn't even give me a hint. Good man.
If true, I expect it's to make sure that they descend.
The air needs to escape the fight deck otherwise it will most likely destroy the flight deck bulkhead in an explosive decompression event. This is a common design in commercial aircraft. If the air does not equalize between compartments it's more dangerous.
I vaguely remember that in 737 training and definitely in Airbus.
Great commentary and opinion. The crew was fantastic. Boeing has some very serious problems. They have to get their sh-t together - fast.
ruclips.net/video/IU8joCEPnWE/видео.html At 29 minutes former Boeing employees are shown...
Wombat makes a good point. In military aviation, the airfield you're launching from is almost always very familiar, and your plan is almost always to recover at that same field. So even if an emergency forces you to land immediately after takeoff, you've still briefed and planned to recover at that airfield. That's not the case in commercial aviation.
Alaska Airline and Boeing have an interesting open door policy.
Ba dum BANG
If I was to go flying tomorrow, and I hear that voice saying "this is your captain", I'd be very happy.
I don't think results of the missing door would have killed everyone at altitude, keep in mind Aloha Airlines Flight 243 lost a large section of the fuselage at 24K and was able to land the aircraft and there was only one fatality...a flight attendant that was standing when the fuselage tore apart.
This reminds me more of Helios 522 rather than Aloha. The plane was at altitude full of corpses before the fuel ran out and it went down.
Awesome contributions Wombat. I'm retired NWA/DAL. I love that the meta has/is(?) changing to F/O flies & talks while CA sorts through the enormous amount of crap. I remember having a check airman criticizing that I let the F/O land a medium serious emergency in the sim. Like I explained to him, we had flown together a lot on 3 different aircraft. He was an excellent former A-10 driver. He did accept my decision as reasonable. Also this crew did a great job.
British Airways SOP is for the _Effo_ to fly the plane while the more experienced pilot, the Captain, to run the troubleshooting. That was the procedure for BA-038 that had their fuel _filter_ mesh wax up and resulted in fuel starvation just when they needed thrust during the last 30 seconds of the landing phase.
I remember that event but didn't know many details. Yeah, even very experienced pilots can screw the pooch under the right circumstances. For that reason it's important to have more than one set of hands, eyes, and brains doing then checking their own work. Humans have a nasty habit of seeing exactly what we want to see regardless of reality. Sometimes the situation prevents or inhibits the effectiveness of self- and double checking. Time pressure is the big one. In days past the F/O was an autopilot and radio operator by ops policy and practice. The S/O and captain worked abnormals together. When 2 pilot cockpits became the norm the division of labor changed to the F/O working the abnormal while the captain flew and worked the radios. That extra pilot was sorely missed because the workload didn't change. There was one less person to do the work. A captain went from being the big brain overseeing how the jet was being flown and how the abnormal was being worked, to having to fly and still do the previous job. I don't like seeing the division of duties being mandated. (To be honest SOPA didn't dictate who did what.) Each abnormal is different. The captain is the one who should decide who does what. SOPA, the QRM/checklists, and training told us the how of working together. Common practice, old habits, and a lack of flexibility/creativity in individual pilots often had us doing things that weren't optimal for a particular situation. My point was that I'm pleased to see that an organization that I found to be a bit stiff when it came to different ways of doing business, was accepting of less traditional divisions of duties as directed by the captain. @@josephking6515
I’ve lost pressure at 47,000 feet in a Lear. Luckily the cabin held at 15,000 feet because the outflow valves closed but we lost 8,000 feet of cabin altitude in a few seconds. It was extremely unsettling and when declaring an emergency ATC actually told us to level off at 25,000 feet and we of course disregarded. I’ve heard people give this FO crap about sounding un unprofessional. That’s unbelievable. You’ve gotta get the airplane set up for an approach and landing while you’re disoriented, can barely hear, and your adrenaline is higher than you can imagine. This crew did a fantastic job. Well done! I’d fly Alaska any day! Boeing needs to find the inspector who missed this and figured out if he or she was criminally negligent.
The time of consciousness in the 40’s definitely scares me lol
Let me bring you up to speed. Everyone was surprised to learn that the cockpit door is DESIGNED to open in the event of a rapid decompression. The reasoning is they want to minimize the pressure differential between the cockpit and the cabin. For some reason, Boeing elected not to inform ANYONE of this feature. (Love the Gus Grissom/The Right Stuff reference from Gonky, "the hatch just blew!")
It's strange though. Because the door apparently also has flaps that should open to do that without the whole door slamming open. Wondering if they cheaped out on that too. And it's yet another fun undocumented feature they added to the aircraft
The cabin pressure dropped 2.5 PSI when it depressurized. I don't want to get put on a watch list by trying to search cockpit door dimensions, but maybe 1400 square inches? So in theory that's 3500 pounds pushing on that door. Whether or not the door is supposed to open, and the apparent lack of documentation around it are entirely different discussions. But still it's surprising how much pressurization force adds up quickly.
Yes, but why not have depressurisation blow out panels in the door?
Weak point that hijackers can exploit? 🤷♂️
@@Trash_Can81 Don't know. Good question. I thought they did.
I would love to know if ANY cockpit door (or bulkhead, for that matter) could hold the pressure differential at 16,000 feet, never mind 36,000 feet. Hopefully people will start looking thew Airbus manuals to see if they ever mention this...
@@alandaters8547 The door doesn’t have to hold that sort of pressure. They contain depressurisation panels that are supposed to blow out to relieve any pressure. I’ve actually checked with a friend who flies the Max, and its door has those panels. Why they didn’t work is another issue, but the door blowing open is not acceptable.
Blancolirio mentioned that Boeing has designed the flightdeck door to open in a cabin de-pressurization.
He sounded very frustrated as this seems to be news and unknown to pilots.
I'm guessing this is not in the POH.
I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on this
This was a new airplane so most likely fairly clean. Pilots I have talked to that have an actual depressurization said they got a lot of dirt in the face from what came up from the floor around their feet. Also not a Plug door that is bigger than the opening, but a door plug that is installed from the outside of the aircraft.
What surprised me was they were 15,000 feet and the flight deck door was blown open. Isn't it a real solid door that's supposed to stop hijackers from being able to breach it?
It didn't blow inward as a highjacker would enter , it blew outward like a stuck crew might need to get out in emergency..
My friend was the FO in an emergency landing and she had the coms and did the hand flying while the Captain handled all the alerts. It turned out to be a hydraulics break and this was out of JFK. She said the manual lowering of the landing gear makes a big noise. It's insane how crew can handle such amazing situations! The one where the cockpit window blew out was the most insane rapid decompression I know. It's crazy how the Captain survived being outside of the plane at 16,000!
Nice to know Wombat flies for my hometown airline. Write another novel if you have time.
1) Props to the crew- they (IMO) were spot on with the comms. 2) To WOMBATs point- I know in marine HF comms- that is the standard as well (Mayday/Pan). You're sending it out to all parties since who you hope can hear you (in my experience, COMSTA Kodiak) may not be able to.
26:46, discussing if that door had hit something. it reminds me of of watching the air crash investigation of united 811 (747), and that door and other assorted bits came off and went through engine 3 and 4, damaged the leading edge, and the horizontal and vertical stabs, making everything much more difficult.
Can only imagine in this case if it had clobbered the horizontal stab on its way off the aircraft, we could be talking about a whole different kind of event.
The cockpit door is designed to open in the event of rapid depressurization. This was confirmed by Boeing.
And Boeing told no one.
Yeah that’s news to everyone. I thought they had panels are meant to blow out? Especially since 911
I believe only the bottom portion of the door is designed to blow out leaving a doggie door size opening.
@@72bable apparently that’s changed with the Max.
Apparently, the iPhone was better engineered than the Max.
15 min air is in the passenger cabin Not 30min air
Great stuff y'all, I really like these incident breakdowns. Very good insights.
Great work on the flight crew and ATC.
Great insight as usual. Always nice to hear from the real experts, rather than the armchair ones on reddit. Are you guys going to cover the Japan Air Lines one with the Coast Guard plane soon? Would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
Those complaining about the radio procedure have zero idea what they are talking about.
Mayday is a convenient word that can be used to alert all on the channel to the emergency and get ATC concentrating and listening with the minimum explanation, but it isn't always required. Telling somebody you are declaring an emergency is equally acceptable.
When I was a radiotelephony instructor, I used to call the PTT button the idiot button because of the frequency with which people would press the button and completely forget what they meant to say.
As you rightly point out, the order of priorities is always "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate". If communication is understood, it is successful.
Those who think she did a bad job, need to stow their opinions until after they've faced a sudden serious emergency.
She did a brilliant job from what I can see.
BLM
blm pilot wth 0 experience
PTT? the Release to Listen button you mean
Thank you ALL for Sharing your thoughtful conversations and consideration for Aviation. NOTHING but RESPECT.➕ BE SAFE ALWAYS➕🙏❤️➕💜♾️
You have to remember that the pressurization light was an intermittent problem. They may have got no indications of a pressure issue on the ground. It may have not even leaked until the airframe was under the strain and stress of flight. They probably either thought they had fixed it or ran tests and didn’t find any sign of the problem so may have done something like replace the controller even though it passed tests just because they couldn’t find a problem on the ground. Alaska took it off ETOPS not because it had a current problem, but because it had recurrent issues in a short time period. They would not have put it back on ETOPS even if they found the problem with the door and fixed that. It was just protocol in case an plane presented another problem in a short timeframe as it already had multiple problems in a short timeframe. Again, they may have even thought the issues were fixed before this flight but it was still off ETOPS because of the rate at witch minor issues were occurring. How do you fix a plane if you already think you fixed it and can’t find anymore problems? The plane didn’t have any hard landings reported and you’re not looking for loose bolts because something like that causing pressure issues has never happened before. Those types of things are supposed to be triple checked and a nonfactor when a mechanic is checking a plane where no one has loosened any airframe bolts during maintenance.
I don’t think that Alaska flying passengers on the plane even though it was off of ETOPS was a problem in any way. If they thought there was a chance of severe life threatening problems they wouldn’t fly it at all. They just didn’t want to have a small bug in the middle of nowhere with none of their own engineers around to look at it to confirm it’s a small problem, like a pressure sensor on the fritz, that they can OK on the ground for the pilots to take it somewhere with one of the redundant systems inoperable. It would cost a lot and take time if that sort of minor thing happened where they had no employees or facilities.
Had to fight a tank for a 24 hour cycle in full MOP. Doing anything is hell with a mask on
What a flight crew, I can't imagine what it was like in the Cabin, unreal, so many what-ifs that could have happened worse, real professionals at work there, wow.
I work for AS & been waiting for this video all week
They did a great job!
Flew on the Max - 8 United Airlines 2 weeks ago and it was a pretty smooth and comfortable flight. Hopefully they get that 9s back in the Air soon and safe.
I think that, as a passenger (I am not an aviator), if a piece of the airplane I was travelling on suddenly "blew out" resulting in what I assume would be a lot of noise and a rush of air - it wouldn't matter to me how long I would be able to breathe at 16000 feet, nor would it matter to me how the flight crew were communicating with ATC. Id be far too busy coping with uncontrollable sudden unscheduled discharge of the bowels. I have total respect for the pilots of that aircraft and their professionalism which got everyone back on the ground with only a few minor injuries. The female pilot didn't sound panicked to me. It sounded to me like she was managing a very complicated situation, trying to talk to ATC with a compressed air mask on whilst trying to do all the things needed to fly the crate. She's shouting - not panicked. She was clear - she declared an emergency and told ATC what she was doing in a decisive way whilst coping with her threat system being intensely raised. Total and utter respect to that flight crew.
Most folks don't know what is involved in programming systems for an unplanned ILS landing at a busy airport.
Shit gets overwhelming sometimes lol.
I'm not a pilot except in IL2, glad to see you guys think the same I do on this. Saw some Trolls on Redditt, knew they didn't KWTF they were talking about. With a big hole in the fuselage, wouldn't've it tend to slow them down?
How do pilots know an emergency descent won’t result in hitting some random aircraft flying below it? I’ve never understood that
TCAS
And the big sky theory.
Do the B-1B mishap.
Awesome video . great hearing your perspectives.
The armchair quarterbacks out there are the reason I left most aviation communities. I desipise when people say "I would have done this" or whatever. Like hell you would have! You weren't on the flight deck when this happened. You have absolutely NO CLUE how you would have reacted.
Can I bring a parachute as carry on?
FYI - i'm working on some aviation safety theory, I watched a stream a couple of months ago, i'm not sure what show, and I don't know which branding of passenger aircraft, but there was a suggestion, (not disproven!, though assumed fake news, as I take all second hand information [ I love forensic ethics, and primum non nocere law]). but according to it there was another suggestion to the emphasis to do more with physics, but a similar thing happened.
There seems to be a lot of static in the radio transmission from the air controller (13:55), making it quite difficult to understand. Is that normal?
I'd have a hard time even hearing the numbers correctly, but the captain just says heading 30.23 no problemo.
Radio traffic is from the LiveATC website, captured by volunteers. The ground-based transmissions are often weaker at the ground-based receiving sites than they would be to the aircraft, which is essentially line-of-sight.
@@wallyschmidt77 That does make a lot of sense. Thank you!
Mayday and Pan is standard phraseology so that everyone all over the world understands what's going on. Not everyone speaks perfect english (both pilots and ATC). Note the infamous Avianca New York crash in 1990 where the crew used vague language and ATC didn't realise the severity of their situation. "Declaring emergency" is fine (if that's standard phraseology) but Mayday is what we've been given.
Edit: I can understand American pilots talking to American ATC using the phrase "declaring emergency" but American pilots are notorious for flying around the world using their own lingo.
Keep in mind, the ATC controller also has their workflow increased for these sorts of emergencies. Standard phraseology is key for them as well!
I could be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the cockpit door did not fly open, panels in the cockpit door flew open. The panels in the cockpit door are engineered to help equalize pressures between the two parts of the jet.
The door opened and got caught with the lav door.
@@CWLemoine
You are right. It opened as designed in order to equalize pressure. "Homendy said that Boeing would make changes to its MAX 9 manual to make clear that the doors are designed to open."
Those airline masks are uncomfortable and when you are on the radio under a mask your voice is badly distorted. In many cases to be heard you have to about yell/scream for ATC to hear you.
From the comments here, It's laughable to think that if this had happened over European airspace ATC would have responded with "Nope. Not until you phrase it correctly."
And what's wrong with that? Speaking to a fellow who did experience a similar incident but at cruise altitude, his view is that announcing a "pan" or "mayday" in the first instance would have made it perfectly clear to anyone listening that serious problems were occuring and that'd clear the freqs and would've stopped that back and forther chatter about "what is the emergency". Also, he said that international standards are there for a reason, whether or not you're flying domestically.
His words, "But, as soon as you start flying in areas for which English is not the native language, going off the ICAO script is a sure way to confuse things, and that will lead to much more discussion."
Always wear your seatbelt!
nothing gets your attention qucker than hearing 'Mayday, Mayday, Mayday' and puts you unto a pre-trained response mode, especially on a very busy net, ie keep the net clear of unnecessary chatter.
This pilot and the one in Philly both showed total professionalism. I don't think being female makes a difference plenty of male pilots have done worse.
Xitter, RUclips and Facebook Experts: They did this and that wrong, Pilot panicked, because that's what women do, I would have done this and that so much better ....
Real experts: Well done, you can't imagine how complicated this situation was for the crew.
wasnt expecting to see a VAS video here.. but wellcome nontheless
Distress communications have absolute priority over all other communications, and the word MAYDAY commands radio silence on the frequency in use. Urgency communications have priority over all other communications except distress, and the word PAN-PAN warns other stations not to interfere with urgency transmissions.
Yup. So does declaring an emergency.
@@CWLemoine Only in America.
@@christopherrobinson7541 the event happened in America.
Judging by the sound quality the ATC was wearing oxygen masks for empathy
Was it the ENTIRE flight deck door that opened, or just the blow out panels? The blow out panels are designed to "blow out" in a rapid-D, hence the name. The entire door itself is absolutely not supposed to pop open.
The entire door opened and got caught against the lav door.
I think you guys are correct in that the decompression was violent enough to blow open the (secured since 9/11) cockpit door and suck the t-shirt off a kid sitting in the row. I’ve never heard of that happening before. I think it could have caused hull damage or loss, if that door plug had struck the tail of the plane after it detached. They are saying the plane was barred from flying to Hawaii due to previous pressurization problems and the plane was only delivered in October of ‘23.
Literally just flew into Heathrow from Haneda on JAL... Thankfully it wasn't a MAX LOL. But I was in the exit seat over the wing. Been a rocky few weeks for aviation and Japan. 😌
I have to wonder if the CVR 2-hour overwrite was an intentional oversight. Given the tendency of both the FAA and the NTSB to throw the crew under the bus to save the reputation of the bigger players in the industry.
This is a fascinating incident because WOMBAT is right, this shouldn’t be possible. It is a plug-style door plug. It physically cannot fit through the opening it is bolted into without moving another direction first, in the case of the door plug, that direction is up (roller moves down, door moves up). The four bolts being talked about in the media aren’t bolts like most people would think of them, they aren’t screwing the door plug into the plane, they are essentially bolt pins that prevent the door plug from moving within its tracks. If the bolts are installed, the door cannot move. Period.
Even if they are loose, as long as they are there and have the castle nut and cotter pin or safety wire, the door plug cannot move. That it came off so cleanly and the frame and the subsequently recovered door plug had zero damage would certainly suggest either the locking bolts weren’t installed at all and the door was held in solely by the stops and springs or the actual fitting wasn’t securely bolted to the plug. We have since had a few pictures released of United Max 9s that were inspected and loose bolts connecting the plug to the hinge fitting were found. If those bolts backed out, it doesn’t matter if the locking bolts are there or not because the thing they’re locking is no longer connected.
The cockpit door thing is interesting too. As I understand it, the 737 Max 9 has decompression panels within the door that are supposed to blow out to equalize pressure. Based on what the NTSB has said, the entire door blew out AND that is what it was supposed to do by design, but the pilots had no idea. I’ve talked with some Max guys that had no idea it was supposed to do that either. If that is how it is meant to work, what an absurd design feature, for exactly the reasons we just saw. The checklist flew out the door, the cabin noise is now in the cockpit and again, WOMBAT is right, they have no idea what the hell happened. For all they know a bomb just went off and now your cockpit door is open? Considering all of the variables at play, that they were as calm as they were and got the plane down as quickly and as safely as they did tells me that it was a damn fine crew.
Between this, the rudder bolt issue (bolts in the rudder with missing nuts arriving at airlines) and the anti-ice overheat thing, Boeing is going to have a lot to answer for with the Max. I probably have a few hundred hours flying aboard various Max aircraft and I can’t say I have ever had an ounce of hesitation, but that is also because I have full faith in the crews and maintenance operating and working on them every day. If anything, this incident only reaffirms that because of how skilled the crew was.
I have since spoken with a 737 Max 9 guy who not only said he had no idea the door was designed to open in the event of an explosive decompression but he even went through the manual (sometimes reading manuals is good I guess) and it makes no mention of the door opening by design following cabin decompression. It only notes that there are blowout panels in the event of decompression in the cockpit. No mention of cabin decompression.
I am starting to think that Boeing doesn’t have an engineering or quality control problem but a communications problem. The Max 8 crashes were caused, in part, by the removal of all references to the MCAS in the flight manual and the pilots had no idea what it was doing, or supposed to be doing, and subsequently fought the computer making uncommanded control inputs all the way into the ground. Now with this door plug issue, it appears certain design decisions have not been communicated to maintenance or the pilots. Makes you wonder who is actually writing these manuals.
Worse thing that ever happened to me is a tire blow out on the main when landing. Slid sideways, could hear everyone in the back screaming. Did a go around and then landed safely with trucks waiting for us.
Had a medical concern that we landed for, and one guy crapped his pants and caused a ruckus. Very uneventful 20 years.
Wow!!!
Huh? You had WoW, ergo you were *on* the runway and you went around, as in spooled up the at idle turbines, accelerated back to V2, retracted flaps to appropriate setting and then climbed away (not necessarily in the order I typed it)?
Well I'm impressed, not an everyday thing to happen, flying a huge heavy jet full of people, making the right decisions when things go wrong, awesome in my books, just awesome.
Isn’t that the craziest thing!! Oh my gosh!
Haven't heard any recording of 1282 saying "mayday mayday mayday"
Correct. They did not, as we discuss.
Novice here: Were they dumping fuel? Wouldn’t they be too heavy to land and incur more damage landing ?
Can't dump fuel in a 737.
@@CWLemoinewould there be any worry about landing over load ?
Maybe. But I'm 100% sure they ran the numbers and determined the landing data was safe before landing.
Alaska Airlines plane was restricted from flying over ocean
If I remember correctly, FAA regulation requires the cockpit door NOT to open upon depressurization. as a matter of fact, the equalizing panels should not only equalize the pressure, but at the same time PROtECT the cockpit from unauthorized access -- including maintaining the armor against gun shots.
the other issue that does not compute in my mind is thhe CVR not being turned off upon aircraft shut down...
I think you'd have to pull the circuit breaker, which they must've missed.
@@CWLemoine
I know. But I don't really understand -- and I'm not aware of the related regulation -- but if the aircraft is all "OFF," why should the CVR remain on? In my opinion, it could even be automatically turned off when you shut down all systems.
My inner engineer wants to know why the plug wasn't designed to stay in place if the bolts fail. You'd think they'd make it so the pressure would hold it in place.
Yes, on the surface it does not appear to have a fail safe design.
I would guess that the spring rate of the lower springs was designed to offset the mass of the door plug and no more. In that case, when the 4 bolts are removed, it would not take a large effort to get the door to raise up the 1.5” to clear the stop pads.
Perhaps we’ll find that due to variations in design or quality control that the spring effort was greater than the weight of the door plug and eventually, due to normal fuselage flexing, the static friction in the stop pads and roller guides was overcome and then BANG…..Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly!
I’m sure no engineer dared to imagine closing out that door plug and failing to install ALL 4 bolts.
The plug door goes in a doorway designed for use as en emergency exit, so it has to use the same retention system as the emergency exit door, with certain modifications. The emergency exit door is designed to be relatively easy to open, without coming back into the cabin first where passengers might be blocking it. The door has to be unlatched, lifted, and pushed directly out.
The pressure does keep the plug door in place, but the bolts aren’t involved in that directly. The bolts prevent the door from being lifted.
Gonky said the same thing I did about the cell phone. 😂😂. Whatever case that is everyone is going to want one!! Boeing claims that the cockpit door is designed to open in a rapid depressurization… I see that it has blowout panels but as another channel pointed out what else did Boeing leave out of the max manual.
If it's Boeing, I'm not going!
little scared cause i flying on that exact plane model tmr...
When one door closes, another opens. - Boeing
Also, here's the question(s): 1) was this a mechanical failure, 2) was this manufacturing negligence/QC issue, or 3) was this intentional malfeasance?
Most likely negligence during production, but not necessarily when the airframe was constructed. The people installing the interior may have removed it and put it back without the keeper bolts.
I’m wondering if the problem could have been noticed during a walkaround. Normally, the plug door is sitting low in the opening, with a visible gap at the top. If it were creeping up, the gap at the top would narrow and a gap would open at the bottom.
Ity may have started moving up after the walk around. Before the plane is pressurized the combination of the spring pushing it up and jostling while taxiing and in the air could have allowed it to move up. Once the 12 "pads" were disengaged, they would never go back again. After that, it is all over, the hinges and the track-pin units were never designed to hold pressure (that is done by the 12 pad sets).
@@alandaters8547- It took a couple of months. I am surmizing that it just moved up a little at a time, so there would have been several walkarounds. It wouldn’t have been noticed because it wasn’t on the list of things to inspect.
Personally I believe the crew handled the emergency almost flawlessly. I was more nervous about the plane breaking apart. Granted I don’t fly real planes but I do use my flight simulator 🤣
I heard that someone was supposed to occupy that seat.
Love your take on things fellas 😊🇬🇧 This is not so much the Max 9 issues and reputation now in question, its Boeing in total.
To speed up lines Boeing and the FAA decided they could do more checks with Boeing staff normally carried out by FAA inspectors. The whole company needs another shakedown, complacency kills and Boeing stinks! As for me I will no longer fly on 737,787 until further notice. I've read and studied accident reports since 1975 courtesy of Flight International onwards as a result I can tell you no other manufacturer has had such influence in terms of safety systems.
The McD merger has caused a dilution of attention in many areas, removing back up Pitot systems is just the tip of the iceberg.
All these issues should have been outed before production.
If the bolts were there and sheared or loosened should have been found in the rig tests. Just another cut corner by making a different fuselage Boeing would have to spend! Nuff said......🕊🇬🇧
Passenger seats near door plugs need to be fitted with parachutes😅
Thanks.
Long time space flight fan, (live in Fla). Seeing how badly Boeing screwed up their crew capsule program I loaded their company web page. "advance equity and diversity and build a culture of inclusion. So maybe their engineering is taking a back seat to other matters. Boeing received $1.6 billion more than SpaceX and almost lost their capsule on the first test. I think they finally manged to dock at the space station but the program is in limbo from what I can tell. Spacex is killing it with steady crew launches and recoveries. So I'm not surprised to see doors fall off of their planes.
16:20 - Portland Approach says 'good afternoon' - thats nice of him. So NOT night?
Evening. It was after 1700. Sunset in that area is around 1645. It was dark.
the nightmare fuel for me is if someone had a baby on their lap next to that plug.
They dealt. Reserve panic for after the debrief.
- You see, the door fell off and it’s not very typical, I’d like to make that point.
Anyone, Industry.. company .. journalist, please ask / answer the question, "Were the 2 seats in the row of three inline / next to the exit / plug on the seat allocation system blocked from being allocated prior to boarding? This should be easy to trace and the question WHY asked!
No. Why would they be blocked? There were no indications of any problems with this plug door prior to it departing.
Additionally, from inside the cabin, no one would be aware that the were sitting next to this plug.
The interior is identical to any other row and the window was the same. This was not an emergency exit row.
This was not an emergency exit door/hatch that opened, but more of a blanking plug that sealed an opening in the fuselage.
What about the iPhone that survived the fall.
737 -8 Max just recovered from the bloodied nose a few years ago. Now the 737-900 MAXX gets a blow to it's nose.
Can someone just get the 737-1000 MAX a Face Mask?
(deleted) I confused myself... woops! Cheers- _'Hoover'_ from pilotdebrief, is who I was thinking... 👋
Lets all pile on before the investigation is complete. That plug is the lowest price option. The plug did not fail. The door frame did not fail. The plug is secured with quadruple redundant safeties. Each safety bolt is secured with a castellated nut and cotter pin. That has been an aviation standard from the start of aircraft production. You are BOLD pilots you might not know the original agreement on the CV. The CV is there not to spy on the flight crew. It is there to help in the event the crew does not survive. If the crew survives they are able to explain the incident. AS an olive branch a bulk erase button was added to the panel. That button can be used by the crew when at the gate with the brakes parked. This was routinely used in the early days by many crews as promises can be broken.
What about Fuel?
Apparently there was a cabin wi fi install in December that required part of that door area to be removed. I would think that maintenance procedure will be under laser focus in the ongoing investigation.
They need to get that plug door back to Boeing, they need to re install it to save some money
was this part of a podcast or live? Where can I watch it in full?
This was part of a podcast which is filmed live. Only members get to watch live or the recordings on this channel: ruclips.net/channel/UCEodFwnfPXdkzVPJZmuzAIgjoin
@@CWLemoine tank you. you got yourself a new member.
Welcome aboard!
Is this like Alaska Airlines Flight 261 all over again with them _saving costs_ by skimping on maintenance. After all every Airline has passenger safety as their _number one priority_ which worked superbly on Flight 261s unlubricated jackscrew.
It is not. The failure did not involve anything that the airline would have to look at in the first few months.
Get a good view of the stars.
Isnt this the same model that dropped out of the sky overseas during COVID or around COVID time, two of these aircraft? Then the entire fleet was grounded and the majority of them were sent to Mojave California and former George AFB for storage until they were cleared to fly again? Boeing is NOT doing well, including there starliner craft that the parachutes didn't deploy correctly when they launched that either. Boeing has got some real ISSUES going on!
Its a pure miracle no one was sucked out, a lot of incidents lately.....hmmmm. I also heard the black box was wiped......
I wonder if the first transmission was startle but, also keying the mic and then instead responding to the FO.
Some Russian dude in another video was making about big deal about her being a “hysterical lady” 🤦♂️
What the plane didn't breakup into pieces? How come Hollywood always shows the plane getting destroyed or losing control!
BOEING BUREAUCRACY BROKE BOEING
Actually, Douglas bureaucracy running Boeing broke Boeing.
Isn't it more important to remain calm? Pilots calm, everyone else will remain calm, right?