My flight instructor once told me that ATC is your best friend up in the air especially during an emergency. They will do everything they can to get you down as safe as possible. Shout out to both the ATC and the pilot for keeping aviation safe.
Former LA Center controller.. Had my share of emergency aircraft over the years. Worst was probably a T-38 out of Luke/Whitman that was on fire. Wingman said he was burning, and instead of getting out, he wanted to try to get it to Nellis. Got everyone out of his way, coordinated with Nellis, got him a straight-in with all the emergency vehicles standing by. Was rewarded with a T-38 ride a few months later as thanks. Turns out the pilot was the CO of the training squadron. Flew down to Arizona, went through some pretty basic training on emergency stuff, and had the best 90 minute ride of my life.
@@dougcronkhite2113 I don’t think they did. I was area F from 2007 to 2016. I heard a bunch of stories about you old timers getting fighter rides. So lucky.
Pausing and explaining is vital to this channel, you break it down and add context usually with your own experience. Keep doing what you’re doing, Mover.
30-yr retired Indy Center controller here. That controller was SHEIT HOT!!! Almost felt like he had time in type. Used to work the Brush Creek/ Buckeye MOA when it was still a restricted area with a Mach testing leg to the east. We would clear them in, then turn them over to OP freqs while “slightly” monitoring their coms via speakers. Can’t tell you how many times we had to assist join-ups and break-ups, but were happy to help. Empire11 would have been a smoking hole on the front page had it not been for that controller. Kudos to the club!
Mover Brought back a divert from Sheppard AFB. Going into Sheppard for a Friday RON. Weather was just at minimums for a TACAN approach. As I was approaching where I should have gotten a left turn toward the airport, I lost comms for a few seconds. Next transmission from Approach wasn't reassuring. Side note: there were two other phantoms on their way to Sheppard and I quickly had visions of the Blue Angels getting into a low fuel situation and trying to land on surrounding highways. Knowing that I had to make a quick choice - stay with Approach and hope I didn't lose comms again or that one of the other Phantoms didn't trash the single runway and really put me in extremis. Digressing a second - as we began our descent, I filed a DRAFT with Approach that I would be going to Dyess AFB as a divert. Still remember how I felt when I answered the controller's question after the lost comm, by adding power, raising the gear, beginning a right climbing turn and for the only time in my 3300+ hours lifted the IFF button and turned it right to squawk 7700. Got up to bingo altitude heading for Dyess and puckered the nozzles to get the best thrust for the least fuel used. As we approached Dyess in the descent, I was looking for the runway lights. As luck would have it, I'd flown a couple cross countries as an instructor on a cross country, and headed for a spot where I thought I remembered where the runway was. About 2 miles out, I asked if the runway lights were on - suddenly, they appeared at my 10 o'clock (just where I thought they should be), lowered the gear and flaps, lined up on the centerline and touched down. I shut down one engine after clearing the runway in hopes I wouldn't flame out taxiing to parking. Made it. When I turned in the fuel chit to Maintenance upon return to the squadron, the Chief said that was the most fuel he had ever seen put into a Phantom. Bottom lines: Going to many bases on cross country training missions saved a Phantom because I was flying to where I thought the runway threshold should have been; filing a DRAFT in case of an issue arising at Sheppard allowed me to make an immediate decision to divert; don't wait to execute an emergency divert. After checking into the BOQ, my RIO and I each grabbed a beer, headed to our separate rooms and immediately wrote down what we remembered of the evenings events. Gave a copy to Dyess personnel and to our Ops Officer and heard nothing more about it. First Phantoms, then TOMCATS!!
Was flying a clean Hornet from Cecil Field (Jax FL) to Barksdale LA. Weather was predicted to be VFR with a cold front moving thru. Checked the weather passing Meridian MS as Barksdale was a stretch for fuel in a clean Hornet - was told weather at Barksdale was VFR. So I pressed on. When I got to Barksdale it was just after sunset, 200 over with 1/2 mile viz with blowing snow. No PAR; they would not clear me for a TACAN; and I didn’t have ILS. Fuel wise, I had no options. So I radar mapped the runway and laid a diamond on the approach end for a self-contained approach, and told approach I was flying the ILS. Picked up the field at 200’ and landed. Within 30 min of landing the sky was clear. Did everything by the book and still backed myself into a corner. Flew the Hornet from 1984 - 2006, this was the only time lack of ILS bite me.
That's called an ALG in the Strike Eagle, cool capability for a no-shyte emergency, but certainly not legal unless TERPSed like with some overseas bases for emergencies. But sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do! Better to do than than flameout!
@@MattH-wg7ouI never served, but I'm pretty sure the brass would be less upset over a successful but not-exactly-legal landing than losing a multi-million dollar fighter jet.
@@MikeDCWeld exactly. You might have to go in front of the squadron at a safety brief and explain how you got into that situation and what your decision making process was, but yea. Better to have a safe aircrew and jet than one who ejected and was possibly injured or worse during the ejection AND a lost airframe, "but they followed the rules"! It's just...IF youre going to break the rules you had better have a damned good reason and be able to explain yourself! Which this absolutely was!
I was at the banquet where this controller received this award. The pilot was also there and spoke and the event. What an amazingly powerful moment. One of the best saves I’ve seen in my career.
Mover…..I was a GCI controller. Reminds me of a time when I had 4 F106’s (I am dating myself) take off out of LMT for ACT over the ocean. The weather guys missed it big time and the whole NW went zero/zero in a heartbeat. These guys were over the Pacific with no gas and no place to land. The Master Sgt, serving as my tech, had the bright idea to look for a SAC tanker, and found one in Northern CA. We vectored the guys to the tanker and they got enough gas to land back at LMT, because the fog had lifted…….or they could have landed in Northern CA. I remember the Ops officer coming around to my scope when I was scrambling to find a place for these guys and he said, “Don’t you dare lose those birds Captain, or you will be staying in this man’s Air Force until you pay for them!!!!” …..At which point he offered me a cigarette. (See I told you it was a long tie ago!!
I like the way you stop and break down how and why something is going on in your videos like this, those that don't must be the best pilots around! Awesome job on the controllers and pilot for a safe landing, thanks Mover!
My father was a Royal Airforce Air Traffic Controller based at an Operational Conversion Unit for the English Electric Lightning (notorious for its tragic fuel usage). Following some dramatic circumstances on one occasion, all the pilots of a flight came to the control tower to thank him after they landed.
@PetesGuide It's not the most aesthetically pleasing of aircraft but at certain angles, it looks 'the business'. Someone once said, it only needed wings to separate the position lights.
Great video and breakdown of the situation. You should know that these controllers at Lambert are very used to dealing with F-18's and F-15's since they are built on the other side of the airport. They fly out of Lambert everyday. My father was one of the designers of the F-15 and supported the F-18 working on many of the Block upgrades.
Level headed professionalism on both sides. Props to the controller for bringing their A-game to work that day, and shout out to the pilot for staying extremely calm, like it's any other approach! This one could have ended up very differently. And thanks for the break-down Mover!
Thank You “Mover” for this! Your concise and detailed description of events like this are extremely valuable to non pilots like myself. It gives me a greater respect and appreciation of the men and women in the cockpit and the tower and the heroic decisions they must make. Keep up the great work sir and Thank You for your service. ✝️
I don't know anything about flying, but this is Bad Ass!! With one son becoming a commercial pilot and his brother finishing school as an ATC I'm knowledgeling the imminence responsibility of both pilot and ATC. You all have my deepest respect!!
Salut mon homme! I watch your channel exactly for your feedback and clarification of situations Mover. Great channel content and the guests/stories are top notch. Thanks for serving your Nation, a great friend and ally to us here in Canada. God bless you Mover. 😉
Great segment mover. Flying Navy P3's out of the San Francisco Bay Area in the 80's and it was PAR approaches for us, no ILS which seemed crazy considering the type of flying we did. I recall one all nighter several hours off the west coast and spent the on station time calculating and recalculating bingo fuel for arrival into Bay Area/NorCal foggy weather. In the end flew one of my only real weather PAR's to mins, nothing quite like it.
No ILS at Moffett?! Is that why one Orion crashed into the golf course? I was only lucky enough to be driving south on 101 when a P-3 came in just in front of me, and man was it a beautiful sight! But no ILS, WTF? Please tell me more.
This is such a great channel and it's refreshing to see creators emphasize the outstanding work done by pilots and controllers together, rather than channels like VASAviation that have made an industry out of damaging that relationship just for clicks. Keep on Mover! You and guys like you are the real deal.
I would emphasize that this particular controller flat out put their “pink card” on the line to get this aircraft down. That phraseology to descend to 1,000 wasn’t by the book and not IAW policy / regs. He basically did a quasi ASR approach without having one published for the airport. That was not just quick thinking on the part of the controller but also knowing his airspace. I know a lot of other controllers either wouldn’t have the knowledge or wouldn’t bother taking the risk of that aircraft hitting an obstruction. But, it’s an emergency and at the end of the day, worked out in their favor. BZ.
I like the idea of incorporating the ground radar once he places the diamond on the field with the manual GPS entry. Hadn't thought of that, but that's a great tool for a crude, self-made, ILS-ish system.
I enjoyed the break down and comments. Helps with the hard to understand audio as well. Interesting to learn about the ILS issue. Never considered that being a Navy thing, but makes sense with the bidding and contracting. Same issue we had with Blackhawks when they changed the GPS and didn't get certification for GPS navigation. Such a waste. Luckily we had ILS but very, very few had TACAN or DME unless in Europe. PARs were always my favorite. Once that rate of decent was set just fly it in listening to "on course, on glide path".
Great outcome. I remember many years ago sitting in our squadron ready room on USS Forrestal, listening to an F-14 pilot that couldn't tank. It was night time with many thunderstorms in the area. As I recall the F-14 flamed out and the crew had to eject. I can still remember the stress in his voice. I think they were successfully picked up.
Thank you for the explanations of the acronyms and abbreviations on this one. I enjoy your content and enjoy the discussion of the mishap events, but sometimes they can be hard to follow just because I'm not up on all the nomenclature. I've always wanted to fly but have always been just an enthusiast. Thanks for the content!
Hey Mover, big fan of your channel! Question for you. Fighters have super accurate IRS, as well as HUDs and/or HMDs, ground radars, often terrain height data (though idk how often that's exposed to the pilot as 'synthetic vision' like commercial avionics), PLM, TGPs and so on. With all that tech, it seems weird to me a fighter can't get through clouds. It has the equipment onboard to build it's own very high precision approach, with onboard radar monitoring/TCAS. Is this just a "because the FAA doesn't like unpublished approaches in IMC" kind of thing, or am I missing something more fundamental?
Growlers have a VOR box that can get installed in place of ACLS. I can’t recall if it required an antenna change too which might be why hornets didn’t get the swap on land
The RCAF still has some PAR controllers at certain bases, I did some training in it but moved to a different specialty. Good on these controllers, Constant clear, calm comms makes all the difference.
I think the people that get bugged by the stoppage is people who have watched too many videos that just are just parasitic on others accomplishments and only stomp all over the video to opine their feelings. it is much different when it is being used as a teaching tool, such as yours to be informative. Anyways, I'm glad you read enough of the comments to have heard the gripes as it means you are engaged in your channel, a big plus. But you didn't need me to tell you that, so please... Carry on and thanks.
A thousand years ago ( roughly) I had to fly 300 hours in 3 months as a crew chief in a Huey as part of a Huey squadron at New River Air Station as part of my syllabus. To get those hours, I had to fly every instrument hop that everyone else hated because they were boring af. All we had at the time were TACAN and PARs approaches. The pilots would take turns putting a cover over their helmet visor and listen to the controller - above glide slope, below glide slope, on glide slope, left of glide slope, etc for hours and hours. But it always put us on the numbers. These guys and gals know their shit.
My aviation handheld radio has more non-precision and precision approach capability than a Super Hornet. Sad and funny at the same time. By the way, I knew the base ops commander at WPAFB who told me the C-5 guys there were flying with Garmin handhelds back in the day because they had more nav capability than the C-5's systems at the time.
Interesting scenario. As a retired military and civilian controller of 36 yrs, it's clear that the controller was improvising. For example: Standard Rate of Descent doesn't really exist--because aircraft and situation dependent. Also, and more important, there are minimum altitudes that the controller can issue. In this case it was 2,200 feet. So he had to--make something up--to get the Hornet below the clouds, in order to have any chance of seeing the runway. It was pretty creative and risky. If it hadn't worked out, he would have faced some tough questions and possibly criminal charges. But that's in the nature of job. Well done 👍
What possible criminal charges? And for what exactly? I don't understand what you're saying about minimum altitudes. This was an entirely improvised approach, with no option for a go around, so the concept of a minimum in this context makes no sense.
@@zvexevz If a controller issues illegal instructions, or if he or she works in a manner which is contrary to regulations and procedures, and if, as a result of his or her actions, an accident results, then he or she may be held criminally liable for those actions. In this case, a so-called Minimum Vectoring Altitude (MVA) or Minimum Radar Vectoring Altitude (MRVA) seems to have been 2,200 feet. This means that this is the lowest safe altitude that a controller may issue while guiding an aircraft to an approach for landing. Once the aircraft is safely established on a published instrument or radar guided approach procedure, then and only then may the aircraft descend further. In this case particular case, the pilot was unable to accept the published VORTAC Approach procedure due to equipment limitations. Therefore, the controller decided to IMPROVISE with the instruction "Descend at pilot's discretion at a standard rate; maintain 1,000 [feet]." (I'm guessing that 1,000 feet is the Minimum Safe Altitude or Minimum Sector Altitude (MSA) for this area.) These minimum altitudes are safety regulations which controllers may never violate. If he or she choses to operate outside these regulations--even in the case of an emergency--then there can be legal consequences. Fortunately, everything worked out well, so there was a commendation. If however, things had worked less well, then questions related to violation of regulations and life endangerment would certainly been raised.
@@suninmoon4601I'm not very well versed in this, could you provide a reference to the definitive regulations please? Because the information I find states: "According to Doc 8168 PAN-OPS when an IFR flight is being vectored by radar, air traffic control (ATC) may assign minimum vectoring altitudes which are below the minimum sector altitude."
Don’t know is this helps but…..Gas turbines use less fuel at altitude. You use more fuel getting up there but then you are in the cruise and using much less. When you descend, you have the throttles at idle (generally) and flight idle rpm, (not a clue about the Hornet) which may be 75-80% rpm. Basically sipping fuel. On the approach, you will need to throttle up and down a little but it’s certainly a lot less than say, a run in and break, to land. Hope that helps. (Not a jockey but an engine tech of many moons.)
What's screwed up about this is that Lambert used to have a ANG base there, but BRAC closed it down over 10 years ago. Scott AFB, has NO barriers either. Screwed up situation.
5:17 Normally when airline pilots declare emergency/mayday they still proceed as usual with headings and altitude clearances etc, just to keep everything normal and per training, even though they dont technically need clearances/approval from the tower any more. I have a sneaking suspicion that a fighter pilot forced to declare an emergency because a bit of attitude from the tower may be less hesitant than an airliner pilot to remind the controller on who's the captain now. (assuming that still works that way on an airbase, not sure)
Have to agree not having the ability to use standard civilian systems in military aircraft is insane. Yes you want your own system (for security) but the basic ability in emergency to use a civilian strip is not only useful like this but even in war time for alternate runways and captured airports for forward deployment. Who made that choice with modern electronics and software deserves a major dressing down.
The ATC guy seems to be very professional and formative, the F-18 pilot he might have lucked out, it probably could’ve been worse if it was a different ATC. In my opinion, the ATC‘s are the best friends of the pilots in the air, but sometimes just things work perfectly. By the way, great video mover!
I don't think any story of people working together to avert a bad result is too old to be told. Even those of us not in aviation can be inspired to think outside of the box or go above and beyond your responsibilities to help others out, and people who do should always be lauded.
Glad it all worked out but it would have been much easier and safer if the controller had simply provided the TACAN channel number which is listed on all civilian charts and plates. I’m surprised they don’t have that training.
Sounds like neither one of them caught it, more the controller since he had the chart. No doubt a very stressful and heavy workload. As a non-pilot when he said VORTAC, I was thinking 'oh he's good now'
I had a client that was in command of a radar installation in rural Pennsylvania In the early days as he would explain, the spinny or floppy radar. There was a General that was low on fuel asking them if he'd make it home and ran out, landed on a rural road and received another star for surviving. Sound familiar?
Great breakdown! For those interested in hearing about the controller side of comms with ATC, check out the Opposing Bases podcast. (Military aviation tie-in: Host AG is a retired Army Chinook and King Air pilot in addition to having been a controller for over a decade.)
I had a situation once when 2 F-18s checked on tower frequency one right after the other, the number two guy (this was not a flight) was just crawling up his buddies read end on final. I told him I needed the preceding aircraft clear of the runway before I could clear him to land and to expect a go around if he wasn’t. the pilot stated “min fuel” and I told ok expect to stay with me for closed traffic (to avoid vectoring), to which he said he would use MARSA, well we didn’t have an LOA to use MARSA, so I told him unable, to which he replied “I’m declaring an emergency!” and I replied, “cleared to land.” It’s the silly games we had to play that make me not miss the job.
For New Orleans, they should setup an emergency approach using the river or lake that allows for an aircraft to descend to mast top height and make a very low VFR approach. OTOH, coordinating such with the river/harbor masters would take some work. The lowest I've locally seen (not in NOLA) is a ceiling at 50-100 ft, which is a given that the airport is closed unless CAT3 autoland.
Can you turn off one engine to slow fuel burn rate at the expense of performance and extend your flight? Neither a twin engine nor a jet pilot. Of course this wouldn’t be ideal but is it a potential tool in a “well I have to try something” emergency? In a prop of course this would create a ton of pointless drag but in a jet I don’t think it would change much but make your potential TWR lower.
Eh on balance of things it is probably a bad idea. 2 engines provide redundancy not only in terms of propulsion but also in terms of electricity generation (I would guess that each engine has a generator), so you would risk introducing a whole new level of issues you for certainly do not need, plus Hornet is not the most powerful aircraft in regards to its engines so giving up one is probably not the best idea, much better to just lower the thrust on both but keep them spooling.
I believe the approach plate does have the TACAN channel for STL. Channel 121. I am not familiar with TACAN approaches but I believe a VORTAC by definition is a VOR and TACAN combined. Maybe the controller did not know to give the TACAN channel 121 vs the VOR 117.4 ??
Off memory Supers have RNAV now, not sure if WASS. Back when i worked in saint louis theyd shoot approaches into KSUS - most likely Empire-11's intended destination.
My flight instructor once told me that ATC is your best friend up in the air especially during an emergency. They will do everything they can to get you down as safe as possible. Shout out to both the ATC and the pilot for keeping aviation safe.
Magnum!
Former LA Center controller.. Had my share of emergency aircraft over the years. Worst was probably a T-38 out of Luke/Whitman that was on fire. Wingman said he was burning, and instead of getting out, he wanted to try to get it to Nellis. Got everyone out of his way, coordinated with Nellis, got him a straight-in with all the emergency vehicles standing by. Was rewarded with a T-38 ride a few months later as thanks. Turns out the pilot was the CO of the training squadron. Flew down to Arizona, went through some pretty basic training on emergency stuff, and had the best 90 minute ride of my life.
Area F?
@@SirScottland Area D at the time. Not sure if they've adjusted the sectors since I left.
@@dougcronkhite2113 I don’t think they did. I was area F from 2007 to 2016. I heard a bunch of stories about you old timers getting fighter rides. So lucky.
Great story
Pausing and explaining is vital to this channel, you break it down and add context usually with your own experience.
Keep doing what you’re doing, Mover.
*Absolutely!* Without the pausing/explaining, what's the point?!? 🤨🤨
Right! what clown would complain about that?
30-yr retired Indy Center controller here. That controller was SHEIT HOT!!! Almost felt like he had time in type.
Used to work the Brush Creek/ Buckeye MOA when it was still a restricted area with a Mach testing leg to the east. We would clear them in, then turn them over to OP freqs while “slightly” monitoring their coms via speakers. Can’t tell you how many times we had to assist join-ups and break-ups, but were happy to help.
Empire11 would have been a smoking hole on the front page had it not been for that controller. Kudos to the club!
Mover Brought back a divert from Sheppard AFB. Going into Sheppard for a Friday RON. Weather was just at minimums for a TACAN approach. As I was approaching where I should have gotten a left turn toward the airport, I lost comms for a few seconds. Next transmission from Approach wasn't reassuring. Side note: there were two other phantoms on their way to Sheppard and I quickly had visions of the Blue Angels getting into a low fuel situation and trying to land on surrounding highways. Knowing that I had to make a quick choice - stay with Approach and hope I didn't lose comms again or that one of the other Phantoms didn't trash the single runway and really put me in extremis. Digressing a second - as we began our descent, I filed a DRAFT with Approach that I would be going to Dyess AFB as a divert. Still remember how I felt when I answered the controller's question after the lost comm, by adding power, raising the gear, beginning a right climbing turn and for the only time in my 3300+ hours lifted the IFF button and turned it right to squawk 7700. Got up to bingo altitude heading for Dyess and puckered the nozzles to get the best thrust for the least fuel used. As we approached Dyess in the descent, I was looking for the runway lights. As luck would have it, I'd flown a couple cross countries as an instructor on a cross country, and headed for a spot where I thought I remembered where the runway was. About 2 miles out, I asked if the runway lights were on - suddenly, they appeared at my 10 o'clock (just where I thought they should be), lowered the gear and flaps, lined up on the centerline and touched down. I shut down one engine after clearing the runway in hopes I wouldn't flame out taxiing to parking. Made it. When I turned in the fuel chit to Maintenance upon return to the squadron, the Chief said that was the most fuel he had ever seen put into a Phantom.
Bottom lines: Going to many bases on cross country training missions saved a Phantom because I was flying to where I thought the runway threshold should have been; filing a DRAFT in case of an issue arising at Sheppard allowed me to make an immediate decision to divert; don't wait to execute an emergency divert.
After checking into the BOQ, my RIO and I each grabbed a beer, headed to our separate rooms and immediately wrote down what we remembered of the evenings events. Gave a copy to Dyess personnel and to our Ops Officer and heard nothing more about it.
First Phantoms, then TOMCATS!!
Was flying a clean Hornet from Cecil Field (Jax FL) to Barksdale LA. Weather was predicted to be VFR with a cold front moving thru. Checked the weather passing Meridian MS as Barksdale was a stretch for fuel in a clean Hornet - was told weather at Barksdale was VFR. So I pressed on. When I got to Barksdale it was just after sunset, 200 over with 1/2 mile viz with blowing snow. No PAR; they would not clear me for a TACAN; and I didn’t have ILS. Fuel wise, I had no options. So I radar mapped the runway and laid a diamond on the approach end for a self-contained approach, and told approach I was flying the ILS. Picked up the field at 200’ and landed. Within 30 min of landing the sky was clear. Did everything by the book and still backed myself into a corner. Flew the Hornet from 1984 - 2006, this was the only time lack of ILS bite me.
That's called an ALG in the Strike Eagle, cool capability for a no-shyte emergency, but certainly not legal unless TERPSed like with some overseas bases for emergencies.
But sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do! Better to do than than flameout!
@@MattH-wg7ouI never served, but I'm pretty sure the brass would be less upset over a successful but not-exactly-legal landing than losing a multi-million dollar fighter jet.
@@MikeDCWeld exactly. You might have to go in front of the squadron at a safety brief and explain how you got into that situation and what your decision making process was, but yea. Better to have a safe aircrew and jet than one who ejected and was possibly injured or worse during the ejection AND a lost airframe, "but they followed the rules"!
It's just...IF youre going to break the rules you had better have a damned good reason and be able to explain yourself! Which this absolutely was!
Thank you for your service sir, it's appreciated. I'd of loved to be able to fly these jets myself.
I was at the banquet where this controller received this award. The pilot was also there and spoke and the event. What an amazingly powerful moment. One of the best saves I’ve seen in my career.
Mover…..I was a GCI controller. Reminds me of a time when I had 4 F106’s (I am dating myself) take off out of LMT for ACT over the ocean. The weather guys missed it big time and the whole NW went zero/zero in a heartbeat. These guys were over the Pacific with no gas and no place to land. The Master Sgt, serving as my tech, had the bright idea to look for a SAC tanker, and found one in Northern CA. We vectored the guys to the tanker and they got enough gas to land back at LMT, because the fog had lifted…….or they could have landed in Northern CA.
I remember the Ops officer coming around to my scope when I was scrambling to find a place for these guys and he said, “Don’t you dare lose those birds Captain, or you will be staying in this man’s Air Force until you pay for them!!!!” …..At which point he offered me a cigarette. (See I told you it was a long tie ago!!
Loved this coverage, Mover. Even a non-flying dummy like me could understand because of your breakdown. So appreciated.
I like the way you stop and break down how and why something is going on in your videos like this, those that don't must be the best pilots around! Awesome job on the controllers and pilot for a safe landing, thanks Mover!
Lambert is where they build Hornets, perhaps that explains the controllers' familiarity with how their landings need to be flown.
Eagles too.
Those guys are probably all very familiar with how fighters fly.
I heard Sully say once, it doesn't matter if you're a 182 or a 380 all you have to do is say "I'm declaring an emergency"
Time to get that Super Hornet pilot on the show. That would be an interesting interview.
And/or the tower peeps !
I know this controller personally. Super awesome and sharp dude. Awesome to see him getting some attention a decade later!
My father was a Royal Airforce Air Traffic Controller based at an Operational Conversion Unit for the English Electric Lightning (notorious for its tragic fuel usage).
Following some dramatic circumstances on one occasion, all the pilots of a flight came to the control tower to thank him after they landed.
Known for its tragic fuel usage and not its tragic looks? 😮
@PetesGuide It's not the most aesthetically pleasing of aircraft but at certain angles, it looks 'the business'.
Someone once said, it only needed wings to separate the position lights.
Great video and breakdown of the situation. You should know that these controllers at Lambert are very used to dealing with F-18's and F-15's since they are built on the other side of the airport. They fly out of Lambert everyday. My father was one of the designers of the F-15 and supported the F-18 working on many of the Block upgrades.
I was on pins and needles for that pilot, but like you said, that controller was a calming voice. Awesome video Mover!!!
Pausing and explaining is 1/2 the reason I Love your channel.
Level headed professionalism on both sides. Props to the controller for bringing their A-game to work that day, and shout out to the pilot for staying extremely calm, like it's any other approach!
This one could have ended up very differently. And thanks for the break-down Mover!
A good controller is worth their weight in gold. RF-4 in the weather with incapacitated front seater, PAR approach.
Wow incap pilot?! Thank God it wasnt a Navy jet with no controls in the back!
Youre a WSO/RSO and landed a Phantom?! Gotta hear this story!
What an awesome job done by both controllers and aviator. Mover, thank you for these breakdowns.
Thank You “Mover” for this! Your concise and detailed description of events like this are extremely valuable to non pilots like myself. It gives me a greater respect and appreciation of the men and women in the cockpit and the tower and the heroic decisions they must make. Keep up the great work sir and Thank You for your service. ✝️
Empire is indeed an Oceana callsign for the VFA-106 Gladiators. It's their travel callsign.
I watch your videos precisely because of your involvement and engagement. Absolutely love your videos . 😊😊
That is wild 😳. Add to the mix that most fuel gauges are +/- 200 lbs and that is super scary
I don't know anything about flying, but this is Bad Ass!! With one son becoming a commercial pilot and his brother finishing school as an ATC I'm knowledgeling the imminence responsibility of both pilot and ATC. You all have my deepest respect!!
Salut mon homme! I watch your channel exactly for your feedback and clarification of situations Mover. Great channel content and the guests/stories are top notch. Thanks for serving your Nation, a great friend and ally to us here in Canada. God bless you Mover. 😉
Great segment mover. Flying Navy P3's out of the San Francisco Bay Area in the 80's and it was PAR approaches for us, no ILS which seemed crazy considering the type of flying we did. I recall one all nighter several hours off the west coast and spent the on station time calculating and recalculating bingo fuel for arrival into Bay Area/NorCal foggy weather. In the end flew one of my only real weather PAR's to mins, nothing quite like it.
No ILS at Moffett?! Is that why one Orion crashed into the golf course? I was only lucky enough to be driving south on 101 when a P-3 came in just in front of me, and man was it a beautiful sight! But no ILS, WTF? Please tell me more.
Great to hear the pilot be humble and ask for help.
I always learn from unforeseen situations - since 45 years of flying. Thanks for commenting the procedure. Always educational to listen to you!
This is such a great channel and it's refreshing to see creators emphasize the outstanding work done by pilots and controllers together, rather than channels like VASAviation that have made an industry out of damaging that relationship just for clicks. Keep on Mover! You and guys like you are the real deal.
Nice stop and explain Mover...
Awesome controller work and excellent job by the pilot.
Thx
I would emphasize that this particular controller flat out put their “pink card” on the line to get this aircraft down. That phraseology to descend to 1,000 wasn’t by the book and not IAW policy / regs. He basically did a quasi ASR approach without having one published for the airport. That was not just quick thinking on the part of the controller but also knowing his airspace. I know a lot of other controllers either wouldn’t have the knowledge or wouldn’t bother taking the risk of that aircraft hitting an obstruction. But, it’s an emergency and at the end of the day, worked out in their favor. BZ.
I like the idea of incorporating the ground radar once he places the diamond on the field with the manual GPS entry. Hadn't thought of that, but that's a great tool for a crude, self-made, ILS-ish system.
Awesome breakdown. Kudos that ATC!
Thanks for stopping and explaining, I’ve heard the audio before but you gave it a bit more perspective.
So good Mover! Love the in-the-moment decision making skills those guys showed, plus the balls and the creativity to make it happen!! Great vid
I enjoyed the break down and comments. Helps with the hard to understand audio as well. Interesting to learn about the ILS issue. Never considered that being a Navy thing, but makes sense with the bidding and contracting. Same issue we had with Blackhawks when they changed the GPS and didn't get certification for GPS navigation. Such a waste. Luckily we had ILS but very, very few had TACAN or DME unless in Europe. PARs were always my favorite. Once that rate of decent was set just fly it in listening to "on course, on glide path".
That's real professionalism.
Great outcome. I remember many years ago sitting in our squadron ready room on USS Forrestal, listening to an F-14 pilot that couldn't tank. It was night
time with many thunderstorms in the area. As I recall the F-14 flamed out and the crew had to eject. I can still remember the stress in his voice. I think they were successfully picked up.
Thank you for the explanations of the acronyms and abbreviations on this one. I enjoy your content and enjoy the discussion of the mishap events, but sometimes they can be hard to follow just because I'm not up on all the nomenclature. I've always wanted to fly but have always been just an enthusiast. Thanks for the content!
Great episode! Lesson learned safely, experience is the best teacher.
Awesome lol, great video. The way you paused wasn't intrusive very smooth ty Mover.
Beautiful breakdown! Thanks Mover❤🛩️🍁
Hey Mover, big fan of your channel! Question for you. Fighters have super accurate IRS, as well as HUDs and/or HMDs, ground radars, often terrain height data (though idk how often that's exposed to the pilot as 'synthetic vision' like commercial avionics), PLM, TGPs and so on. With all that tech, it seems weird to me a fighter can't get through clouds. It has the equipment onboard to build it's own very high precision approach, with onboard radar monitoring/TCAS. Is this just a "because the FAA doesn't like unpublished approaches in IMC" kind of thing, or am I missing something more fundamental?
Did he ever answer?
@@FSXpilotman Unfortunately, no.
Great debrief. Keep it up. Love your videos
Great communication, coordination and skills all around.
Great video Mover appreciate your thoughts!
That was a great story! Your break down was appreciated.
EMPIRE is the radio callsign for VFA-106.
Ignore the haters and keep doing what you doing👍
The explanations and backstories is exactly why i follow your channel.
Growlers have a VOR box that can get installed in place of ACLS. I can’t recall if it required an antenna change too which might be why hornets didn’t get the swap on land
That was insane. Great job by both the pilot and the controller
Looking real podcast radio show host. Awesome! Love the look love the channel love what you do. Thank you
The RCAF still has some PAR controllers at certain bases, I did some training in it but moved to a different specialty. Good on these controllers, Constant clear, calm comms makes all the difference.
Thank the good Lord
"I need no delays or I will jump out" doesn't have the same impact when I say it from a 172.
Flew PAR a few times in a light twin, pretty interesting and a lot more fun when there’s plenty of fuel on board.
I think the people that get bugged by the stoppage is people who have watched too many videos that just are just parasitic on others accomplishments and only stomp all over the video to opine their feelings. it is much different when it is being used as a teaching tool, such as yours to be informative. Anyways, I'm glad you read enough of the comments to have heard the gripes as it means you are engaged in your channel, a big plus. But you didn't need me to tell you that, so please... Carry on and thanks.
Great work from all involved! Never thought this would be a problem for a Hornet 😳. It's so "mil" it forgot how to "civ".
A thousand years ago ( roughly) I had to fly 300 hours in 3 months as a crew chief in a Huey as part of a Huey squadron at New River Air Station as part of my syllabus. To get those hours, I had to fly every instrument hop that everyone else hated because they were boring af. All we had at the time were TACAN and PARs approaches. The pilots would take turns putting a cover over their helmet visor and listen to the controller - above glide slope, below glide slope, on glide slope, left of glide slope, etc for hours and hours. But it always put us on the numbers. These guys and gals know their shit.
Glad you included the SAR map capability of the air to ground radar.
Just HAD TO listen to it again. Awesome!!!!
Mover, you wouldn't be MOVER if you didn't break it down! Keep doing the great vids!
My aviation handheld radio has more non-precision and precision approach capability than a Super Hornet. Sad and funny at the same time. By the way, I knew the base ops commander at WPAFB who told me the C-5 guys there were flying with Garmin handhelds back in the day because they had more nav capability than the C-5's systems at the time.
Interesting scenario. As a retired military and civilian controller of 36 yrs, it's clear that the controller was improvising. For example: Standard Rate of Descent doesn't really exist--because aircraft and situation dependent. Also, and more important, there are minimum altitudes that the controller can issue. In this case it was 2,200 feet. So he had to--make something up--to get the Hornet below the clouds, in order to have any chance of seeing the runway.
It was pretty creative and risky. If it hadn't worked out, he would have faced some tough questions and possibly criminal charges. But that's in the nature of job. Well done 👍
What possible criminal charges? And for what exactly?
I don't understand what you're saying about minimum altitudes. This was an entirely improvised approach, with no option for a go around, so the concept of a minimum in this context makes no sense.
@@zvexevz If a controller issues illegal instructions, or if he or she works in a manner which is contrary to regulations and procedures, and if, as a result of his or her actions, an accident results, then he or she may be held criminally liable for those actions.
In this case, a so-called Minimum Vectoring Altitude (MVA) or Minimum Radar Vectoring Altitude (MRVA) seems to have been 2,200 feet. This means that this is the lowest safe altitude that a controller may issue while guiding an aircraft to an approach for landing. Once the aircraft is safely established on a published instrument or radar guided approach procedure, then and only then may the aircraft descend further.
In this case particular case, the pilot was unable to accept the published VORTAC Approach procedure due to equipment limitations. Therefore, the controller decided to IMPROVISE with the instruction "Descend at pilot's discretion at a standard rate; maintain 1,000 [feet]."
(I'm guessing that 1,000 feet is the Minimum Safe Altitude or Minimum Sector Altitude (MSA) for this area.)
These minimum altitudes are safety regulations which controllers may never violate. If he or she choses to operate outside these regulations--even in the case of an emergency--then there can be legal consequences.
Fortunately, everything worked out well, so there was a commendation. If however, things had worked less well, then questions related to violation of regulations and life endangerment would certainly been raised.
@@suninmoon4601I'm not very well versed in this, could you provide a reference to the definitive regulations please? Because the information I find states:
"According to Doc 8168 PAN-OPS when an IFR flight is being vectored by radar, air traffic control (ATC) may assign minimum vectoring altitudes which are below the minimum sector altitude."
Don’t know is this helps but…..Gas turbines use less fuel at altitude. You use more fuel getting up there but then you are in the cruise and using much less. When you descend, you have the throttles at idle (generally) and flight idle rpm, (not a clue about the Hornet) which may be 75-80% rpm. Basically sipping fuel. On the approach, you will need to throttle up and down a little but it’s certainly a lot less than say, a run in and break, to land.
Hope that helps. (Not a jockey but an engine tech of many moons.)
thank you MOVER, great break down !!!!
Outstanding Mover. You’re correct, ATC can be a lifesaver. Fly Navy
What's screwed up about this is that Lambert used to have a ANG base there, but BRAC closed it down over 10 years ago. Scott AFB, has NO barriers either. Screwed up situation.
Is someone who's been to different accident briefs in the Air Force you're totally right to pause and explain the situation
5:17 Normally when airline pilots declare emergency/mayday they still proceed as usual with headings and altitude clearances etc, just to keep everything normal and per training, even though they dont technically need clearances/approval from the tower any more. I have a sneaking suspicion that a fighter pilot forced to declare an emergency because a bit of attitude from the tower may be less hesitant than an airliner pilot to remind the controller on who's the captain now. (assuming that still works that way on an airbase, not sure)
The two 18s on a TRANSPAC that got saved by a controller who diverted them to an island in Alaska is a good one to hash up too.
Have to agree not having the ability to use standard civilian systems in military aircraft is insane. Yes you want your own system (for security) but the basic ability in emergency to use a civilian strip is not only useful like this but even in war time for alternate runways and captured airports for forward deployment. Who made that choice with modern electronics and software deserves a major dressing down.
Awesome example of teamwork.
I like the breakdown
Empire 11 is a VFA-106 callsign … the NAS Oceana FRS
Was going to comment the same. Home of VFA-103 Jolly Rogers callsign Victory
The ATC guy seems to be very professional and formative, the F-18 pilot he might have lucked out, it probably could’ve been worse if it was a different ATC. In my opinion, the ATC‘s are the best friends of the pilots in the air, but sometimes just things work perfectly. By the way, great video mover!
G’day Mover, quick question: Roughly how much fuel/time is the difference between minimum fuel and emergency fuel?
In the T-38 and F-16 it was 200 lbs difference. Maybe 10 minutes depending on altitude.
@@CWLemoine not real long then. Thanks!
TACAN ch 121 for KSTL.
Great Vid Mover
I quiet enjoyed PAR approaches, I have also done a few practice PAR's with no comms using the mike key
I don't think any story of people working together to avert a bad result is too old to be told. Even those of us not in aviation can be inspired to think outside of the box or go above and beyond your responsibilities to help others out, and people who do should always be lauded.
Glad it all worked out but it would have been much easier and safer if the controller had simply provided the TACAN channel number which is listed on all civilian charts and plates. I’m surprised they don’t have that training.
Sounds like neither one of them caught it, more the controller since he had the chart. No doubt a very stressful and heavy workload. As a non-pilot when he said VORTAC, I was thinking 'oh he's good now'
My current home town. STL area controllers have heavy F-18 exposure with production test flights and active duty cross country flights
I had a client that was in command of a radar installation in rural Pennsylvania
In the early days as he would explain, the spinny or floppy radar.
There was a General that was low on fuel asking them if he'd make it home and ran out, landed on a rural road and received another star for surviving.
Sound familiar?
Every time Iland at KSNA I think of your comments about the 5,500’ runway.
Great breakdown! For those interested in hearing about the controller side of comms with ATC, check out the Opposing Bases podcast. (Military aviation tie-in: Host AG is a retired Army Chinook and King Air pilot in addition to having been a controller for over a decade.)
Great video, Mover!
T75 (STL approach) is top notch. Love working with them
I had a situation once when 2 F-18s checked on tower frequency one right after the other, the number two guy (this was not a flight) was just crawling up his buddies read end on final. I told him I needed the preceding aircraft clear of the runway before I could clear him to land and to expect a go around if he wasn’t. the pilot stated “min fuel” and I told ok expect to stay with me for closed traffic (to avoid vectoring), to which he said he would use MARSA, well we didn’t have an LOA to use MARSA, so I told him unable, to which he replied “I’m declaring an emergency!” and I replied, “cleared to land.” It’s the silly games we had to play that make me not miss the job.
For New Orleans, they should setup an emergency approach using the river or lake that allows for an aircraft to descend to mast top height and make a very low VFR approach. OTOH, coordinating such with the river/harbor masters would take some work.
The lowest I've locally seen (not in NOLA) is a ceiling at 50-100 ft, which is a given that the airport is closed unless CAT3 autoland.
PAR's are kind of fun. They make me feel cooler than I actually am.
Temperature 15 dew point 15?? That is clearly FOG!
That was great. Holy cow , I have trouble with the TV remote. 😁👍🇺🇸
Can you turn off one engine to slow fuel burn rate at the expense of performance and extend your flight?
Neither a twin engine nor a jet pilot. Of course this wouldn’t be ideal but is it a potential tool in a “well I have to try something” emergency?
In a prop of course this would create a ton of pointless drag but in a jet I don’t think it would change much but make your potential TWR lower.
Eh on balance of things it is probably a bad idea. 2 engines provide redundancy not only in terms of propulsion but also in terms of electricity generation (I would guess that each engine has a generator), so you would risk introducing a whole new level of issues you for certainly do not need, plus Hornet is not the most powerful aircraft in regards to its engines so giving up one is probably not the best idea, much better to just lower the thrust on both but keep them spooling.
Blows my mind that a $50million dollar cutting-edge jet didn't have ILS in the day; government efficiency at its best!
Wouldn't suprise me if it's an effort to cut costs.🤔
I believe the approach plate does have the TACAN channel for STL. Channel 121. I am not familiar with TACAN approaches but I believe a VORTAC by definition is a VOR and TACAN combined. Maybe the controller did not know to give the TACAN channel 121 vs the VOR 117.4 ??
Off memory Supers have RNAV now, not sure if WASS. Back when i worked in saint louis theyd shoot approaches into KSUS - most likely Empire-11's intended destination.
Rock on, Mover.