Until The Very END! The Tragic Story of Alaska Airlines flight 261
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- Опубликовано: 11 май 2024
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As a pilot, there are a few situations you hope you’ll never EVER have to encounter and one of them is the total loss of controls of your aircraft, with no checklist to help you solve it. This is going to be a bone chilling account of one of the most consequential aviation accidents in modern history but it’s also a story of airmanship and a willingness to keep flying the aircraft, no matter what! Stay tuned!
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Below you will find the links to videos and sources used in this episode.
Final Report:
www.ntsb.gov/investigations/A...
Aircraft Used:
McDonnell Douglas MD-83 FLY THE MADDOG X EXPANSION MD-83/88 MSFS by LEONARDO SOFTWARE
secure.simmarket.com/leonardo...
DC-9: Cory W. Watts
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonne...
MD-81: EK056
aerocorner.com/aircraft/mcdon...
MD-82: skybrary.aero
www.skybrary.aero/aircraft/md82
MD-88: GeorgeM757
aerocorner.com/aircraft/mcdon...
Boeing 717: AEMoreira042281
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_...
McDonnell Douglas Factory: Piergiuliano Chesi
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonne...
Alaska Airlines: exploredesign
www.exploredesign.com/wp-cont...
Crash Site: KC Alfred
www.sfgate.com/news/article/S...
Crash Site 2: MSNBC
www.sfgate.com/news/article/S...
Site 3: Bryan Chan / AP Photo
www.sfgate.com/news/article/S...
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CHAPTERS
00:00 - Intro
00:50 - Pitch control
03:46 - The Mechanics
07:21 - Maintenance
11:54 - The previous crew
13:42 - Climbing
17:45 - Contacting maintenance
20:51 - Troubleshooting the problem
24:04 - Holy s**t!
29:17 - Unloading the aircraft
32:54 - “At least upside down we’re flying“
37:45 - A hero
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Great job with this one Peter ! These pilots were the true heroes, they never for a moment gave up, they even flew the plane upside down , they gave everything they had until the end . Rip to all the people who lost their life’s
What's an acme screw? I always think of the cartoons but it's not a company is it. Its a special load bearing thread?
Did they really not "unload" the airplane ? There's conflicting information with another video on the same flight
@@icarus_falling- if you Google it, you’ll see what it is. It’s very similar to a typical bolt with a nut
@@icarus_falling Acme screws are lead screws that are designed to translate rotary motion into linear motion. They have a trapezoidal thread profile with a standard included angle of 29 degrees ,The lead screw is fitted to a nut, and the linear motion may be generated by turning either the nut or the lead screw.
There was an Alaska Airlines lead mechanic at their Oakland maintenance facility named John Liotine who on September 7 / 1997 (~2 years and 4 months before the accident) recommended replacement of the jack screw assembly on the accident aircraft because it was just barely within acceptable limits for wear and in his opinion would be out of limits by the next check. His recommendation was overruled by a manager on September 30 after a different mechanic said the jack screw wear was within limits. Liotine was very concerned about fraudulent maintenance practices at Alaska airlines and had contacted the FAA to raise his concerns. In response the FAA "raided" Alaska airlines in December 1998 to seize maintenance records. As a result Liotine was put on paid leave in August 1999 for being "disruptive". He eventually sued Alaska Airlines for libel and the suit was settled in his favor (for $500K) but as part of the settlement he was forced to resign his employment with Alaska Airlines. Doing a bit of searching about John Liotine's career with Alaska Airlines makes for very interesting reading... The world needs more people with the integrity of John Liotine. While his efforts ultimately did not prevent the accident I consider him as another of the heroes along with the flight crew of Alaska 261.
incredible
This, in itself, could be a movie.
Goes to show management dont listen to the specialists.
As I mostly agree with you, don't be so biased agains manager in terms of wear of part, if that part is within limits (even if barely). The plane at that point is trustworthy and limits are set to have buffers. The maintainance should then estimate that next check based on wear, in short period, and/or schedule replacement in that future. This should be proper management - balance to not have huge cost of grounding plane right here right now, but scheduling with compliance to rules. Manager has to consider money factor of course. I think theres a bit of blame to all parties - If emgineerr would told that part is e.g. 95% worn out, instead saying it will be out till next check - manager would likely plan it differently.
If true this is another example of cost over safety false economy. What the airline must have paid out in compensation would have been many many times the cost of a repair/replacement part!!!
The Captain’s decision to invert the aircraft to counteract the horizontal stabilizer is a testament to his iron will and refusal to give up in this hopeless situation. These pilots are truly heroes who were left for dead by their organization. Very sad
Never give up the will to live!
Aviate, navigate, communicate. In that order. This reminds me of the control inputs that were recorded after the space shuttle challenger exploded
@@Grimpy970 Where did you read about control inputs recorded? I've definitely seen that they recorded (the commander, IIRC) saying "uh-oh," but not in the calm and matter of fact way it reads before the crew cabin power was lost and the recording stopped but I've never seen anything about control inputs.
He got the idea from Denzel
The pilots are the epitome of fighting for yr lives, never giving up to the very end..what incredible role models they were and still are..they are the true heroes our children should look up to..Men of steel..
"At least upside down we're flying!"
That must be the most badass, fate-defying quote i have ever heard. Seriously, this guy had balls of steel. Never lost his cool, his will or his sense of humor. I can only aspire to live with such character.
His cool and will, yes. Humor? No. It was anything but a lighthearted comment. He was saying that they were good…for now.
@@humphreygruntwhistle3946 But that is the point. Instead of saying 'We are screwed and we are all going to die' he said 'At least upside down we are flying'. It seems pretty clear that there was no real process or procedure that would bring them back to normal flight and that he knew that very well. His use of 'Here we go' to end his life confirms this to me.
@@Hereford1642 They were heroes. Unfortunately many people think they would do better and land that aircraft safely. Especially in Russia where vast majority of population despise EU and Americans. ''They are all stupid'', ''their aircrafts are such a s*it'', et cetera. It's funny to read because Russia doesn't have its own aircrafts. They refused to return Boeing from leasing and at the same time insult and curse these wonderful planes.
Some cynical people perfer "realism" but I perfer optimism/humor/lightheartedness, just like the pilot
yes thats the best attitude. Its never over until its over.
As a 12k hour pilot and after watching many of your excellent but often very sad videos, this was the first one that made me tear up. You can't help imagining what you yourself would do in that horrific situation, and heaven forbid if something similar happened to me, I hope I can show at least half as much mettle, bravery and fortitude in my last minutes as those pilots displayed. RIP to them, and to all aboard.
Absolutely
That's a good bit of hours , what type is most of your time on ?
The story in this video is missing the a critical part .
The FDR shows they pushed the popped breaker 3 times to try and cycle the Hstab . The regret of repeated fussing with the Hstab trim when it locked up.
As high time pilot , resetting a breaker repeatedly tripped is a red flag , would you agree?
This Md80 was in level flight and the pilots sealed the fate of all by fiddling .
There are no heroes , just an exacerbated maintenance failure ...real human factors issue .
Yes I work in maintenance and I do an annual RII cert course for Horizon/Alaska because of this very incident. .
Well all I can say is... what I was taught a quarter of a century ago is that you can reset a CB once and once only.
However my company procedure is not to reset it at all until you have gone through either a QRH or have made any reasonable attempt to ascertain why it has popped.
But I always try not to judge too much and I still think these guys did a good job. And when you stack it up against some of the more recent outright horror stories out there (a crew not rotating because the FD wasn't set, or losing situational awareness because of a flap issue and an autopilot disconnect) then in contrast these guys are all right in my book.
To answer your question, I fly a jet where all the dials are of the more conventional type ;)
Its probably better to crash into water than the ground regardless... yes both are badically certain death but water seems it would have a slightly higher chance of success... and you save those on the ground. So just pick water
Ques - we know a plane can land in water, like the AA one in New York... but can it land in water upside down? Like is there any physical way possible to do that without the plane breaking up?
"Here we go" is such a chilling and badass final statement from a pilot who never gave up and fought to the bitter end. Having the courage to even say something like that when faced with imminent death speaks volumes about his character. Reminds me of that classic quote:
"Do not go quietly into that goodnight. Rage, rage against the dying of the light".
There's a transcript of a passenger pilot going down whose last words were "I love you Jennifer" knowing his wife would get to hear it. Fortunately I think they were dead heading, no passengers. Chilling. It's somewhere on those NTSB crash transcripts.
it actually tells you that he was trying to do something... the CVR actually implies he was still trying even on that last second. :(
I dunno it's a pretty common reaction to imminent death. I sure had the same experience at war. The other common reaction being utter fear, which I also saw there. Fight or flight and all.
@@uclajd There were 83 passengers on board Alaska Airlines flight 261.
@@simonsv9449 I'm referring to a different crash.
I def teared up with his last words being so humble "here we go" like it was just his next adventure. And i hope hes living that next adventure now. Watched several videos like this but this one got me at the teamwork displayed and efforts made by these two heros.
I know, it’s heartbreaking
They would sometime Joke that they were on another "Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure" before take off. I do miss riding with them :(
@@MentourPilot Losing such amazing pilots and so many innocent lives due to organisational failure makes my blood boil. RIP
Oh mybye they fly in haven right now
meanwhile in the rest of the aircraft
I lost a friend on that flight. He was an amazing guy, class president and a friend of everyone. He was with his wife and two little girls. Devastating to all the families and friends of all of the victims.😢
Wow, that's horribly sad. I can't imagine.
Terrible man
This past December I took my kids on their first flight with my wife to NYC. Let me tell you I cannot imagine how he felt being with his family in that situation. Heart wrenching.
Cap
Sorry to hear... May they rest in peace.
This particular captain is and always will be my hero. If I'd ever to go down, I want go to go down like he did. Beating the crap out of fate until the very end. Rest in piece you awesome tigers.
"Beating the crap out of fate" I liked this one
What a display of bravery
Well, fate won in the end, but those two men sure went down swinging. I watch a lot of military videos too, and this evokes the same emotions as a company holding a heroic last stand against a much larger foe in the face of certain defeat.
Rest in piece is kind of morbid compared to rest in peace.
@punbug4721 fate always wins. Even the great heroes and demigods of history and mythology are subject to it. It's how they (and we) react to fate the determines how heroic we really are.
"peace*"
The fact that they never gave up shows amazing airmenship! Horrific accident and may all those who lost their life's in this tragedy rest in peace 😥❤️
Shouldn't they just have decided to turn back uppon seeing the trim issues instead ?
@@machintrucGamingit’s almost as if you didn’t watch the video, as that “question” was talked about and explained what a pilot would be thinking in that situation.
They fought to the last second and showed amazing awareness .
Not to take anything from them but...what else were they supposed to do? There was no "Okay, I've had enough, lets just go home!" here, they had to try whatever they could until the bitter end and I doubt the thought to "give up" ever crossed their mind in the first place considering how full of adrenalin they must've been.
@@machintrucGaming 18:11
There are always 2 things I think of when I recall this accident: 1. how the passengers must have felt flying upside down straight into the sea below and 2. what the absolute heroes and professionals these pilots were! They stayed calm and tried to save their aircraft against all odds. True legends!
RIP to all on board and thank you again Petter for your hard work! Greetings from Poland ❤
Yes, that’s absolutely right.
I didn’t want to picture what things must have been like in the cabin 😔
@@MentourPilot You have a fantastic sense of awareness and discretion when it comes to things like that. It is one of the things I really appreciate about your channel.
@@MentourPilot Though I saw a 1st season Mayday episode of this accident and they gave a pretty good glimpse of what might’ve been happening in the cabin.
@@MentourPilot The accident in "Flight" movie staring Danzel Washington was based on this accident. I think it captures the emotions that might have been felt very well and it's a nice tribute to those amazing pilots.
@@MentourPilot I immediately picture it....and (sad to say) everytime I see an Alaska Airlines jet, this is the first thing that pops into my head. I know this accident led to massive positive changes, which is a good thing, but the image is horrific.
After 37 years as an air traffic controller, and unfortunately having been on the other end of the radio for numerous emergencies, and tragic events. I have great respect for the composure and courage of pilots in extreme circumstances.
From a forensic tech, I totally respect you guys as well. I think I would have heart problems or something from the uncertainty. We have our own "bag of horrors" but they're expected and there are ways to deal with them.
It’s always struck me how calm and well the ATC handled this mayday. Directing the other pilots and using them to help him see what was going on. Those pilots some seemed military were calm and helpful but you could hear the sadness in their voices. The pilots asked to stay over the ocean which of course left them out over the ocean and not the heavily populated area. Such a tragic flight and every time I hear this recording it gets to me.
Congrats on 37 years!
What are some of the most tragic experiences you’ve heard firsthand?
It takes a very uncommon person to survive 37 years as an air traffic controller!!!
As someone who has watched a large amount of aviation accident videos, this by FAR is the most terrifying. What those passengers and crew went through, and for the length of time they went through it, was unimaginable.
Pretty exciting last few minutes..
@@detroittokc6494i dont think anyone in that situation would use the word exciting, just as bad as burning to death in my opinion
@@evangreen2455 Opinions.. Everyone has one..
@@detroittokc6494”bro it’s just dark humor brooo” you think you’re so ‘hard’ and it’s honestly sad 😂
@@detroittokc6494looking forward to your last few minutes. Savvy?
I’ve been an aircraft maintenance technician for nearly twenty years; it’s been my life. My wife wishes I would stop watching your channel, and others like it, because it makes her nervous but I continue because it keeps me alert to industry issues and helps me to remember the most important fact in my career: there’s no where to pull over at 30,000 feet.
Shouldn't she be more mad that your doing that as a job and not the content you watch?
My situation is different. I dream about being a pilot so i watch these channels. But my family prefer i not watch cause they don't want me flying an aircraft
That's silly, you're a billion times more likely to die driving to the airport.
@@windsofmarchjourneyperrytr2823he's talking about staying alert at his job of maintaining aircraft. Ya know the place where you don't want to get complacent
I agree with ya. I've programmed and designed control systems and sometimes it's easy to just wave off "non-issues" and get complacent in design. But then stuff like this helps keep you in check and aware.
Those technicians must have taken this hard. That was one of there birds up in the air that is crashing because of the maintenance crew screw up. There was a mechanic that had whistle blown this Alaska Airline for exactly this type situation. A mechanic had reported the trim and trim shaft as exceeding the limitation standards and was over ridden by a manager another poster reported and I can believe it .
My brother was a heavy equipment mechanic and worked on 18 wheeler fleets and things like this happen with those trucks to... a mechanic has his livelihood and certifications on the line while some manager disregards the mechanics expertise and the manager fixates on saving dollars, getting a bonus, and having his own way about things. Most mechanics in any field do not get the respect for what they know and do in my opinion.
Ted and Bill were the most professional pilots I have ever met. I trusted them with my life on numerous occasions, and it was the right choice. I strongly believe that everyone on that flight had the best because they were flying. However, the fact that Alaska Airlines was too cheap to prioritize their safety, as well as mine, is what ultimately led to their tragic deaths. I used to catch a ride with them on morning flights to LAX. The plane was usually not crowded on that leg, and I flew frequently enough to occasionally get upgraded to the front. This was back before 9/11 when the cockpit door was often kept open, allowing us to hang out and talk before takeoff. Both Ted and Bill had military backgrounds (not together) and were exceptional pilots. I was on a flight from LAX to Oakland when we witnessed the aircraft that would later be identified as Flight 261 (though I didn't know it at the time) going down. I lost friends in that incident, and I am still filled with anger toward Alaska Airlines. I have not forgiven them. Let me emphasize once again - Ted and Bill were the best pilots I ever knew.
I’m so sorry for your loss. Ted and Bill are members of an elite group of airmen, ones who showed the very best of skill, fighting until the last to save whoever they could, in a situation not their fault. If there’s a special place in heaven for people like that, they are there, along with airmen such as Al Haynes and Denny Fitch.
John Liotine too. He gave up his professional career trying to prevent this accident.
So sorry for these unnecessary deaths. I understand your anger!
For them only shares are important ...at the end of the year they want their shares no matter what !loss of lives ?is sadly just fine for them....!😶
I know it's insignificant in the grand scheme of things, but I hope the passengers on the flight understood that the pilots were doing everything they could. It's understandable if their last thoughts were blaming the pilots, but would still be completely undeserved.
@@titolino73 Only a psychopath would deliberately choose money over lives. Accidents are most often a long chain of seemingly insignificant events, and changes and deviations from official practices.
My girlfriend had an emergency landing on Alaska flight 367 about three weeks ago from Milwaukee to Seattle. There was an indication light that there was a fire in one of the wheel wells. Thankfully they landed safely with no evidence of a fire found, but only hearing from the pilot say "prepare for emergency landing" and then "brace for impact" gave her some emotional trauma for a few days. I cant possibly even begin to imagine what those passengers felt like in those last moments. 😥
Dayum, I’m watching these videos right before my flight to Dubai
The passengers were probably in shock and feeling severe panic, impending doom and frightened beyond explanation. 😳
Don’t do dat!
They were upside down and with all the blood flow to the brain probably passed out
A much shorter period of trauma than your girl experienced, apparently.
John Liotine was one of my instructors at the Aviation Academy that I attended and was one of the best instructors I was privileged to study under.
Ques - we know a plane can land in water, like the AA one in New York... but can it land in water upside down? Like is there any physical way possible to do that without the plane breaking up?
@@nofurtherwest3474would depend on the aircraft, survival chances wouldn’t be great though, it would be extremely hard to get out of the plane upside down.
@@thomasunderwood5780 I see. Well I wonder if it could land in one piece upside down. I wonder if it's ever been studied
@@nofurtherwest3474depends on how fast you're going when you hit the water...
@@nofurtherwest3474aircraft have much much less structural integrity designed for hitting something from the top versus the normal forces from the bottom keeping the airplane up. Most likely, it, and any other aircraft, had no chance of withstanding any forces from impact from the top with any structural resilience.
This was particularly heartbreaking because the pilots tried so hard. It's incredible they achieved some degree of stability by actually flying the plane upside down. May all their souls rest in peace
Absolutely incredible effort!! Very saddening.
But they never gave up and never stopped trying to the very end.. their last words were like "ok here we go into the water" literally the example of the "you are trapped in a room on fire with no exit and a window in a 20th floor so you jump out of the window.. now you have another problem but have solved the previous one and have some extra seconds to solve the next one"
But the pilot also sealed their fate by trying to get the stabilizer working the last time.
@@daren32909 I also believe that. That's when they should have left it alone, and they might would have had a chance, because the stabilizer would have probably stayed intact.
I'm shocked Alaska airlines was allowed to continue flying into today
My jaw literally dropped when the pilot was able to realize he needed to push down and roll to save the aircraft from the dive. So impressive yet still such a sad outcome ❤
Yes, indeed 😔
Same, I'm usually silent while watching videos but I literally let out a "wow...". I thought that was a genius move. They never lost hope
My pilot friends aren’t very fond of ex military pilots when flying under perfect conditions. However every one of them loves those people when things get bad. (Military pilots tend to be rough at landing and take offs. They are too fast to get on and off the ground making slightly more rough flying for the passengers as well as executing slightly faster maneuvers. It’s because of their philosophy of avoiding hanging in the air because of small arms, rockets, missiles and even artillery that makes them act this way. I too have some issues with starting my car/truck from the outside. Always looking behind me as I approach my vehicle and leaving a very wide space in front of me when I stop at a light. Obviously nobody is setting bombs in my car, but that space in front has saved my twice from a car collision.)
@@john-paulsilke893 i didnt even think of that, very interesting
@@john-paulsilke893 👍
Captain Ted Thompson was very happy to be given the PVR-SFO run. He had rung the operations centre requesting to be on this flight so he could be home in time for his sons water polo game. First Officer Tansky was to retire in early 2002 and had plans to take leisurely walks with his wife Bonnie of 30 years and start up a small business through the internet. Great airmen both.
@Notcha Shut up your rotten mouth
@@NotchaBiznesswhy say that?
@@NotchaBiznessthought your little comment was funny, pathetic 🐷
Thanks for the added detail about them. As with all content that details tragedy and loss of life, one of the most important factors is making sure the humanity of the victims is not lost in the telling, imo.
This one brought tears to my eyes. The pilots seemed to do everything right but the situation was too cruel. The loss of such skilled pilots in a situation like that is especially bitter.
One of the saddest ones. Those pilots were heroes who were completely betrayed by their company management. It's an absolute outrage that nobody went to jail for this.
It's such a crying shame. People should have been imprisoned for this. I'll believe corporations are people when we execute one. This is only getting worse in America. This has not gotten better.
As much as it feels like pushing criminal charges feel right, it can cause more people to hide their mistakes and make things much more deadlier. More than pointing fingers and passing blame, it is more important to make sure something like this never happens again which means making people feel safe about telling us what they did wrong so we can know what we need to do right. His other videos goes more in depth about the subject.
I think Capital Punishment for the Management involved would be more fitting
I definitely shed a tear with this one.
@@Isperada
I suspect the Executives still got their Excessive Bonuses that Year, probably even Extra, for one less aging Aircraft no longer in Inventory
What an absolute unit of a pilot.
His FO says no, and the answer is no. He leaves his ego at the gate, and that's the mark of a true pilot, and GOOD captain.
They really were absolutely brilliant in their handling of the emergency, its just a tragedy that they were in a "no-win" scenario.
Thanks so much for making these videos. They're extremely well made, and have given me a fantastic insight into the world of aviation. :)
The captain knew the FO had more MD-83 time than he did, so deferred to his judgment.
@@jmowreader9555 Which lesser Commanders would be unable to do.
@@jmowreader9555 he reminds me of admiral Lee-
at least once during WW2, he ceded operational command to a lower-ranked admiral because they were more experienced/familiar with commanding a force like the light-combatant heavy fleet they had..
@@Gantradies This incredible airmanship reminds me of Captain Al Haynes and crew of United 232, getting a severely crippled DC10 with no hydraulics and flight controls to Sioux Gateway Airport for an impossible landing that saved 185 lives, switching power between the 1 and 2 engines to barely control plane, great use of CRM, and the will to keep fighting like these brave pilots for Alaska Airlines.
@@donnix1192 Same here. Tiny shifts of fate produced very different outcomes, but in both cases the flight crew were legendary.
I was on the FBILA Evidence Response Team (ERT) when we were called to assist local and state first responders and FAA investigators in recovering human remains and aircraft debris off the Ventura coast. We were all out there for weeks trying to gather the remains of their loved ones and to determine the cause of the accident. Working on Alaska Airlines Flight 261 crash was one of the worst tragedies we have ever worked. To this day, I still vividly remember the sadness we all felt for the victims and their loved ones. RIP 🙏🏽
Tragic & Devastating! May All R.I.P 🙏🏼
I flew on that plane in the morning down to SFO. I was supposed to be on the second leg from SFO to SEA. It terrified me into a different career without daily air travel, and I stopped flying Alaska. This is the first time I have listened to the whole recording from the cockpit. Thank you for your detailed synopsis and walkthrough. May the brave and heroic flight crew, passengers, and their family and friends rest in peace.
I hope you get a steady healing. Takes a lot of courage to do that!
🙏🙏🙏
What kept you from getting on this flight?
@@audralenhart5102the plane was supposed to fly from Seattle → SFO → Mexico → SFO → Seattle. OP flew from Seattle to SFO and was supposed to fly back from SFO. The plane crashed on the leg from Mexico to SFO, before OP was supposed to board the flight
@@naaatLuck. Act of God that saved the potential doomed passenger, I don't know. But thank God just in case. ❤
88 people lost their lives, but hundreds or even thousands more were saved because of the pilots' decision to fly over water instead of populated areas. THANK YOU! R.I.P 🙏🏻
@@leeevans302 Yes, they were GREAT HUMANS!
@@leeevans302um you really buy that story?? It was shot down by a missle my guy
You’re a great narrator, thanks 👍🏼
@@leeevans302 that's a lie by the governement. There was no plane debris from that flight. Go do some research. 911 was an inside job
@@eskanda3434 Right.... "Shot down by a missile". Yup. Because all the wreckage clearly showed obvious evidence of a missile strike, and the failed jackscrew was just planted to fool everyone.... Maybe you read too many conspiracy theory novels....
The pilots never gave up. I hate no one survived after all that effort, but the airmanship was stellar and a example for young pilots. To the lost.
they actually saved lives by choosing to remain flying above the sea
The first rule when there is a problem is to keep flying the plane, but this was an impossible situation, pilots want to survive too
@@lyndabeam2622 To the lost.
The pilot probably saved hundreds or thousands of lives by flying over water. Incredible handling of the airplane and really smart decision to invert the plane. We lost a real hero that day. RIP
@teppo9585 well get to work, what are their names?
@@teppo9585 They were allowed to make that landing into LAX, they were given a direct vector into LAX, any runway they wanted, but the Captain elected to keep them over open water while they did their configuration for landing, because he knew that if the trim system failed entirely, there would likely be nothing they could do to avoid a crash. Even had they elected to take the direct into LAX, it's likely that the torque tube would have still failed, and the aircraft would have crashed. This way at least, the Captain made a choice to preserve as many lives as possible, should he lose control of the aircraft.
@@orangejuche Ugh I somehow thought they had an earlier chance to land than that but I now listened again. It was that part where Mentour said his blood boiled from the comment to the pilots I somehow thought they there had a chance that was denied but no didn´t go like that.
Early on in my Coast Guard career, I literally had just gotten home and received a call that we were being recalled to respond to this unfortunate incident. The debris field is definitely something I will never ever forget. I actually think about it all the time! Extremely sad situation!
What did it look like?
That sounds like an incredibly tough and potentially traumatic job. I hope you're doing okay.
Those body parts must've looked fascinating in the water.
What fun to be a coast guard
@@naomichisholm7709I'm sure it is.
Can we just also take a sec to applause their incredible CRM as the captain listened without questioning the advices of the FO?
A fantastic flight crew were lost that day, absolutely criminal that they were even put in that situation. True heroes in every sense.
Agreed, as the FO was very experienced and the Captain would have considered that experience. Taking nothing away from this crew, but thinking more about CRM, how would any Captain have reacted if the FO was a rookie but right in what he suggested? I'm not suggesting this Capt would have been dogmatic and would have had to consider the relative experience of his FO but a good example of CRM would be the Capt accepting a "junior's" suggestion after due consideration. This crew displayed exceptional professionalism.
@@K1OIKsecond. first officer. crew resource management. :)
@@K1OIKMasturbation... Horrible addiction!
@@K1OIK1. These are common abbreviations in aviation. Everybody uses them.
2. You wondered what they were, and got a good answer, and you went straight to snide. Ew.
3. SMFH.
John Liotine was a mechanic at Alaska Airlines. In 1997 he recommended that the jackscrew and nut be replaced and he was overruled by a supervisor. Then, in 1998 he reported to the FAA the crap that was going on with aircraft maintenance. Liotine even secretly recorded one of the supervisors saying that he [the supervisor] falsified one of the maintenance records. The FAA raided their maintenance facilities and seized thousands of records. For whistleblowing, Liotine was put in indefinite paid leave, loosing thousands of dollars of overtime pay. The airline spread false rumors in the media about him being a disgruntled worker, wanting to get back at supervisors who overlooked him for promotion. Unfortunately, the accident he tried to prevent happened. In 2000, Liotine filed a libel suit against the airline and they settled with him. He was never able to work in the aircraft industry again, as with may whistleblowers. John Liotine was one of the heroes at Alaska Airlines who sacrificed his career to save lives.
he's...
the man we all hope we'd be, and the one we all hope we'd never have to :(
@@Gantradies The sad thing is, in many industries, if you do the right thing and repot the wrongdoing to the authorities, you can kiss you career goodbye. Not even the government would hire you. So the system, at least in the airline industry, is designed to hide what's wrong and sweep it under the carpet. Until a major accident like this happens and all hell breaks loose.
@@apollosaturn5 That's capitalism for you. You're told in grade school to report any wrongdoing to the authorities; but as soon as you do so in your work life you commit professional suicide. What kind of system hides wrongdoing and punishes those who do the right thing?
@@JamesDavy2009 Socialism is no better either.
His LinkedIn profile does mention that he works aircraft maintenance in Florida, though not for any major airline.
I had the privilege to fly with Ted and Bill many times. They were consummate professionals and always took care of their crews. It was an awful, horrific day for our Alaska family. We will never forget their bravery all the loved ones who were lost.
These pilots better have some awards/monuments honoring them. Dudes were tough as nails. Rest easy for you did all that you could. Brilliant pilots❤
Just got there. They were. As they should.
Did you even watch the video? They both got the gold medal of heroism.
@@haxbornlook at my second comment as I reached the end of the video haha.
I know all about this accident and I know this is going to be hard to watch. I'm going to watch it anyways because the crew are absolute heroes and deserve to be remembered for doing everything they can. Your production quality, presentation, and level of detail certainly makes it a lot easier to watch! RIP to the passengers and crew and thank you Petter and your team for all your hard work!
Thank you for your kind words. I hope the video lives up to your anticipation! 💕✈️
Same. It hurts my guts knowing the ending and everything they tried. They deserve to be listened to because even diving into the sea they tried to save the passengers by slowing down and definitely saved many people on the land by staying over the water. 😢
What I'm interested in.. was there ANY way they could've landed that plane? Glide it down with flaps or something?
Horrible accident and outstanding video
The hard part is they very nearly survived the malfunction. If they hadn't kept messing with the trim after it malfunctioned they might have been able to land safely at LAX. You would think though, the motor would have been designed to shut off when it attempted to draw too much current, to prevent it from damaging the jackscrew. Having only the one screw seems like a single point of failure that shouldn't have been allowed. Some sort of physical limits besides the screw should have been designed into the stabilizer trim so it would still be possible to fly and land the aircraft even with the trim at full deflection.
@@MentourPilot Thank you so much for your in-depth analysis. Accidents happen. I hope that you are my pilot should anything go awry. God Bless and safe travels to all.
Those pilots are heroes in my eyes. They flew the plane all the way into the water, trying to find any way to save it and increase the chance of survival for the passengers on board.
"Here we go"
Even at the end, they hadn't given up, and it seemed they thought there was still a chance, and even if it was exceptionally small, they were going to fight for it.
@@Elendrian ovo,k+😊😊
They also did succeed in saving a lot of lives on the ground by choosing to be over the water instead. As a New Yorker who lived through 9/11, it helps people like me too, even if we're not flying, that we on the ground are also considered by good pilots in their consideration of safety.
@@yaycupcake that was one of the reasons Sully cited in his decision to ditch in the Hudson. He knew, as did his first officer, if he tried to turn back, he’d be committing to a choice for which may endanger lives on the ground if he fell short. He was right. Simulations showed that successfully reaching an airport was 50% at best, if he reacted instantly, and 0% if time for analysis and decision making was considered.
I had the pleasure of meeting Captain Thompson and having a brief conversation with him. His wife was my boss and wonderful lady. My heart still hearts for her and her two kids. I remember getting on a cardio machine at the gym and seeing the debris field on the news on the multiple TVs. After reading the subtitles I learned that it was an Alaska Airlines aircraft. I called my boss' home to pass along my condolences to her and her husband, and the Alaska family for the tragedy. I had no idea Ted was the Captain! Still so sad.
This was the air disaster I was assigned in my aircraft dynamics course and it has stuck with me ever since. It was the first black box recording I heard. The pilots were truly heroes
RIP to Captain Theodore "Ted" Thompson and William "Bill" Tansky, your heroic actions will never be forgotten
The truly awful thing about this accident is the sheer terror and confusion the passengers would’ve been subjected to before crashing.
I put off watching this video for a long time. I have about 700K miles on Alaska Airlines, and I am not a nervous flyer. As terrifying as this was, these two pilots deserve every accolade and more. Faced with an impossible situation, they performed heroically.
I'm not a pilot, I'm an engineer. I can say that if I were sitting in the cockpit and a pilot told me, "every time I hit the trim switches we get a huge AC draw but no trim movement." I would have immediately told him to never touch the trim the rest of the flight. If you see huge electrical draw from an electromechanical system, it means the motor is fine but the mechanics are jammed. Better to have a jammed stabilizer in a controllable position than a potential uncontrolled stabilizer.
Agreed. Stall current on a motor shows that electricity is at least flowing, but not why the motor isn’t running. Why it’s not functioning is not a question that needs to be answered by the pilots, other than it means something is very wrong, when the alternate drive also doesn’t work. Primary not working? Use alternate. Alternate also not working? Land immediately.
Hindsight being 20/20 and all. At least now the MD80 documentation doesn’t mince words about landing immediately if both systems don’t work.
Some years ago I had a Flaps deployment circuit breaker trip. I landed taxied to maintenance , Wrote it up, told the A&P to check/adjust flaps limit switch circuit. He responded yeah yeah I'll get to it !
Three days later that aircraft crashed.
The engineer was probably a book engineer who learnt to memorise words but not what they mean. There are too many of them right now.
@@alistairplank4996that’s chilling!
Just got to that part. I work w electronics but I'm not an engineer. It would have triggered me to be very nervous. If they have a device for monitoring current, I'm surprised there's nothing in the books about what that could mean. VERY odd.
This is the story that got me interested in aviation, and made me want to be a pilot. I’ve read the CVR probably a dozen times. I still can’t believe how stoic and focused the pilots were to the end.
Absolutely.. it’s a terrible but very important accident to cover.
On one hand it makes a person wonder how they could keep their composure in such a dire situation, but at the same time if you lose your head then what little chance for recovery there may be will be immediately lost.
@MEJ1990TM I drill this into my daughter all the time.... "People who panic get killed." Every flight we take I make sure she imagines the quickest way to the exits, how to climb over seats if she needs to and to absolutely never to worry about me or her goddamn iPhone on her way out.
Captain, you are an excellent teacher, instructor & communicator. You make these aviation events so easily digestible while making your viewers, especially me, wanting to know more. My late brother passed away working on the flight deck of the 2005 Bellview Airlines crash in Nigeria. Flying a Boeing 727, I believe the cause of the crash was in similar circumstances to this with the same fatal downward outcome. Thank you for all that you do on your clips, Sir; salut!
@@SteveDorrans Great work there Steve. Having a plan and having visualised yourself working through it, is valuable preparation. Especially from the point of view of your seating location on each flight and making that preparation something she routinely does during boarding. You won't stop her thinking what about my dad/phone but having the answers in her mind, the delay will be minimised.
Perhaps also prepare for the plan to dynamically change? e.g. Fire outside on your side.
I flew my first plane last week. I am hooked. These men did everything they could. I salute them.
What absolutely outstanding bravery and airmanship.
Never stop flying. Never stop fighting.
What really impressed me in the midst of this awful tragedy is the teamwork between the captain and first officer, especially saying that they shouldn’t try the autopilot again and reminding the captain to make his pa call. Too many videos you’ve done have had a first officer not speaking up when they see something wrong or being basically shouted down. These two respected each other enough to listen to each other and put potentially bruised egos aside to make the best possible choices in a crisis. Good leadership and good teamwork.
As soon as I heard “Jack screw assembly” I knew which horrifying crash this was, they were incredibly brave and stoic in the face of certain death, I cannot imagine what that feeling was like for the pilots or the passengers
It was really bad for sure, but they kept flying until the end.
Same here
Imagine being there for the 1st drop, then having the fatal dive.
I flew Alaska Airlines from San Francisco to Puerto Vallarta dozens of times during the 90s. It was chilling to realize there’s a very good chance I was on this plane at least once. This is one of the most preventable and heartbreaking cases.
“I think if it’s controllable, we oughta just try to land it” that statement by the first officer always sends a chill down my spine. It shows that he really understood the gravity of what they had going on
Only very late on. It's pretty shocking they flew for hours with what seemed like a very serious issue from the start which only got worse.
@@jamesfranko5098I mean to be fair without knowing what was going to happen the original problem didn’t seem that serious. Trim was stuck but it was stuck in a controllable place.
And that’s why you land while it’s still controllable….
If your situation gets worse with everything you try you STOP trying immediately and land.
I don’t think they are heroes, I think they caused the accident.
@@J0nni3 true
@@J0nni3What a bad take
Checklists exist for a reason. They did their best to try and work thru the problem. If every plane declared mayday for seemingly minor problems air traffic would be a total mess, leading to even more possible crashes.
Luckily, nobody cares what you think.
They were heroes.
People unable to view things outside of hindsight are the worst.
I did a report on this accident for a college class, the decision to stay over the water saved countless lives in what potentially could have been a massive disaster if the plane came down in LA.
Accidents like this have always made me cringe in my career in aviation maintenance whenever I hear "it's within limits."
That phrase is already a yellow flag with the likelihood or going red.
"it's within limits" is perfectly fine!
As long as it's utterer is willing to elaborate on HOW FAR inside limits it is. If they won't elaborate, it's either not in limits, or is about to not be.
We’ve heard plenty of these breakdowns where the pilots lost situational awareness or were overwhelmed when the reality didn’t match their expectations. I don’t judge them, but that helps me to understand how truly amazing this crew was. I know it’s been many years but their heroism should be recognized and remembered so that new pilots can take inspiration from their story.
Indeed. The very idea of rolling a commercial jet would not have even occurred to many pilots, but he had a plan.
It didn't work, but in slightly different circumstances it *might* have.
The fight to keep the aircraft flying shows not only the commercial experience but back to both of their military training as pilots. Very direct and calm under pressure.
I can still remember being in college hearing about this incident knowing my father regularly flew the same airline & plane type for work. Air travel can get routine & mundane until a incident such as this happens.
I'm a mechanical engineer and I think one of the most fascinating parts of this is the redundant jackscrew assembly that was designed as a result of this. It features an additional two nuts above and below the main one that are fixed in rotation but not directly anchored to the first. This means they get driven up and down the screw with the main nut, but crucially don't bear any of the loads, so don't wear like the main nut. If the main nut fails, it can only slide up or down the thread a very short distance until it hits a backup nut, which then bears the load until the plane can get on the ground
That's all good, but it does not change the fact that this was a terrible piece of design for a potential single point of failure. If you design a commercial plane you have to assume that someone somwhere is going to ignore your maintenance guidelines - and design on that basis. A mission critical part that requires regular lubrication does not fit that.
@@kenoliver8913 Nailed it, Ken
@@kenoliver8913 Engineers do the best they can with the materials and technologies we have. Some systems have limitations and require maintenance, no matter what you try not to. Maintenance guidelines are there to be followed.
If you dont change your brake pads in you car, you will end up crashing or going off the road.
If you dont change the engine oil, it will seize up.
Car brands tried to sell automatic gearbox cars saying that the gearbox didnt need maintenance.
The cars end up with the gearbox failing, so you need to change the oil on them too.
@@kenoliver8913I don't think anyone is saying it wasn't a terrible design
@@SiliconPower74 The big difference is that a seized engine or even worn brake pads do not cause a couple of hundred people at a time to fall out of the sky.
The first RUclips about this accident is actually what helped me be less scared of flying. These pilots did their best and fought hard to recover control of the plane and it gave me a lot of peace of mind, weirdly. Thank you so much for covering it in your usual, amazing way. :-)
I'm a nervous flier too. I think it's got a lot to do with the loss of control we endure as passengers. Once that airplane takes off, we are at the mercy of two pilots for hours, with no way to get off if we get nervous. Seeing competent professional pilots helps alleviate that issue.
I wish I could get on a plane flown by Petter the maestro.
I’m sure you know this but passenger planes are probably the safest form of transport. There’s redundancy after redundancy, every time there’s an issue that is realized a change is suggested and almost always improved. The culture of being able to be honest rather than covering your ass is incredibly helpful for issues being uncovered.
@@justkittensbeingkittens5892 There are very few nervous flyers who don't know that it's statistically incredibly safe, it just doesn't help to alleviate a fear which is by definition irrational.
And while the odds are incredibly low that something will go wrong, there's still a non-zero chance. It's hard not to remember that every person aboard Alaska 261 probably told themselves flying was the safest mode of transport at some point in their lives, but it didn't help them one bit.
@@justkittensbeingkittens5892 Yeah, airplanes are statistically safer than cars, but there are no fender benders at 30,000'. 🤷♂ If my trunk flies off, I'll just pull over.
This accident has always bothered me. The aircraft was stable and under control with a stabiliser malfunction (Stab out of trim). This is not an uncommon situation and there are procedures to deal with it. Initially they did the right thing and accessed the QRH and Non-Normal checklists but when they couldn't 'fix it', rather than stopping there and declaring a PAN and landing at LAX, they chose to 'experiment' using unauthorised procedures. This is in-effect, unauthorised testing of an aircraft.
During my military Flight Engineer training about a century ago, it was drilled into us that if you have a problem and you have managed to get the aircraft in a stable situation, you leave everything where it is as far as possible, and land ASAP.
In this case, they had a stable aircraft that had an 0.4 degree nose down stab. Controllable with 30-50 pounds force. The landing would have been faster and overweight but manageable. They knew that had a jammed stab and discussed this with AS MX, yet decided to experiment by using both trim motors to try to overdrive the stab jack and this is what caused it to fail completely and run away.
In effect, they turned a minor controllability issue into a terminal event.
I used this accident for several years years as an example of what not to do, when lecturing ATPL Aero and systems and Human Factors to my BSc pilot students.
If you are interested, the accident report is NTSB AAR 02/01.
Despite some environmental pressures and their best intent, good airmanship should have led them to divert when they had the first problem. You don't experiment with pitch stability.
My father- a former pilot and air traffic controller of more than fifty years' experience in aviation would agree with you wholeheartedly.
yes a plane is fallible anything wrong land the beast
Thanks for sharing an alternate perspective.
Not to diminish the pilots, skills and heroism after the situation deteriorated beyond repair, I must agree with you. The WORST possible control system to be affected on an aircraft is pitch control. My first instinct if pitch control systems were not correctly working would be get that sucker down now! But alas, these are career pilots under incredible pressures to perform by others in a large corporation. On the other side of the coin, if they had landed the plane safely and mechanics only discovered minor issues, their careers would have been dramatically affected. Obviously in this scenario, they would have been exonerated as Uber heroes if they could have reached ground before catastrophic failure, but hindsight is always 20-20. Both pilots had reached agreement to the correct course of action in the end, but they simply ran out of time and options.
Yes, it is a fascinating 'human factors' story and one I examined in my postgrad studies. I trained as a P-3 Flight Engineer a century or so ago and it was drilled into us as former maintainers, "If it goes pear-shaped, don't make it worse by trying unorthodox ways to fix it.. Get it on the ground.
These days as an airline engineering safety investigator I review all PIREPS that have any engineering implications and investigate where necessary and there is no way anyone up the food chain would 'ping' a crew for an ATB if they had doubts about the aircraft.@@davidnjennieprice
This is one of the most surreal accidents in aviation history. The display of airmanship is absolute top notch.
I worked for nearly 42 years in a technical industry that was extensively procedure driven. It always amazes me how seemingly benign changes in (and departures from) policy, procedure, and execution can so often conspire to cause a disaster. Stories like this one remind me how very fortunate I was over the course of my career that even with the amount of energy that lay at my fingertips, none of the adverse situations I experienced ever produced consequences remotely close to this.
The professionalism displayed by the crew was extraordinary. It's awful that someone given the task of maintenance would be so cavalier about such a critical control.
I recall at the time the Captain's son in an interview that he was the sort of person who was calm and never would have given up and how true this story has become.
Amazing airmanship and AS pilots renowned for their skills and flew MD80s several times with them.
I've been watching this channel for a while and I have never cried. Captain Ted made me cry. Captain, I know you and your first captain are in heaven now. What an amazing great man and pilot you were. Rest in peace.
The last words from Captain Ted sent chills through me. They were trying to fly their jet and never gave up. God Bless them and all involved.
They sure were blessed that day huh
Gbu Commander ,the crew and the pax RIP
Those pilots were more concerned with their schedule than safety. At the first sign of
trouble controlling the plane they should have landed(in mexico, not try to fly to LA).
They their reckless negligence caused their deaths and their passengers deaths. In most fatal cases the pilots are negligent, giving up safety to keep their job.
If you could not steer your car properly would you stop or try to make it to LA?
anyone who is not insame would stop.
May he be flying in heaven forever
@@computerpro123abc "Reckless negligence"? "Insane"? Jee whiz, take it down a notch. The video explains the reasoning at 18:10, maybe watch it again.
As a former Alaska Airlines employee I can tell you this story gives us heavy hearts until this day.
I'm sorry that it's always at the back of your mind. So many little events in the incident that if one was interrupted or stoped then the result for the aircraft may have been very different.
As a current American Airlines mechanic, I can tell you that AA flight 191 haunts us old timers. I worked with one of the mechanics who worked on the engine change that doomed that flight, and I remember seeing the smoke cloud from the crash from my friend's house twenty miles away. I pray the lessons of the past are not forgotten, and another catastrophic incident doesn't end up haunting another generation of mechanics.
A few years ago when confronted with this incident one of their social media managers told me that "i should just forget about the past" .. i utterly refuse to..
Im working at Delta and always have this in mind when I have a jackscrew lube job
@@sparrowlt maintenance staff should never forget the past as this is what a proportion of our maintenance manuals are written from.
I had a friend who died on that plane that day. We all feel that the passengers died in sheer terror. It is difficult to accept this, however I am very pleased and proud that you took the time to analyse and interpret this crash. We will all benefit from understanding what actually happened. Thank you.
I’m so sorry for your loss. 🙏🏼💕I have never been in this situation where my life was critically threatened on an airplane. But, I had another terrifying incident in my life that made me realize that when you are facing life and death, in an extreme and fast-moving situation, you are only thinking moment to moment about survival, what to do, etc. You don’t even have time to be terrified. It’s like your mind or soul protects you from that terror so you can focus on trying to live. I can only hope that’s what it was like for these victims, including the incredibly brave pilots.❤️🥹💕
The professionism and will to fight at the end was honestly the most heroic thing ever. They were going down, but not without a fight. I was hoping the whole time they'd make it... All the right moves man. It was all out of their control.
This is one of those times that you already know the outcome but somewhere inside there is a flicker of hope it won’t really happen. But of course it does. 😢 Thank you Petter for telling this story with such clarity and respect. Rest In Peace to all of those souls.
Like, when the captain listened to the FO's suggestion two different times, hope glowed brightly within me. But alas. You can't change the past.
These pilots, from the sounds of it, were the best pilots you have ever featured on an air accident investigation. Shame they couldn't do anything because they could probably recover from many of the other situations that resulted in a crash. I am particularly impressed with the captain's idea to invert the plane as most certainly wouldn't, especially with the stress naturally coming from such a sudden development of the situation.
That action put a small smile on my face, before realizing they were doomed anyway.
His military experience definitely gave him the intuition to try flying it upside down instead
Them and the SAS crew in the Linate disaster
Inverting the aircraft is logical in that situation, if it wants to nose over, roll it so the nose down force turns into a nose up force, and I think if their engines didn't quit and they had a bit more altitude they might have pulled it off, though I doubt anyone would've survived trying to land the plane upside down
Don’t forget crews like that of United 232. “No hydraulics? Let’s get that instructor up here and try using the engines!”
@@Historymaker-xw9wf using differential thrust is a very old aviation trick used in both world wars, it's a dying art unfortunately
This is a new and yet very thorough take of the tragic accident of 261. I went to the memorial from time to time when I lived near Port Hueneme and always paid my respects to the pilots who tried to save everybody's life.
I saw it for the first time yesterday, did a bike ride there from Ventura. It's quite a sobering monument, seeing all the individual plaques of the people that were on board that flight.
What a great video. A 42 minute presentation full of technical detail that never gets boring nor dumbs things down. Just wish it had a happy ending.
This one made me mad. It seemed completely preventable. I feel so sorry for the crew, passengers, and victims' families involved.
i know right? so much thing could be done to prevent the accident from happening..
Yeah in an ocean of accidents that are caused by inexperience, negligence and/or pilot error, this was a plane in the most capable pilots' hands and there was nothing they could do. The design of this system was bad to start with, which lent itself to poor maintenance and ultimately, to failure. It reminds me of the 737Max MCAS system failure. Another badly designed system which caused a nose-down crash.
Yes! Thank you> I was thinking something must be wrong with me 'cause I was NOT tearing up! I was mad as hell and ready to march into Alaska Corporate offices and ask What in the GD hell were they thinking!! Did they really think that their blind devotion to bean counting would make them immune to accidents? Gheesh!!
@@Legendary-boxing
No, it's about people being greedy and lazy. Money is not required to be part of that, as you will realise if you look into the safety of Soviet airlines.
Hearing the fear in those pilots voices shakes me to my core.. they are nonetheless extremely brave and show absolute airmanship until the very end. I pray that they and all their passengers that perished that fateful day rest in peace. And may the family members of everyone on board find peace in their lives as well.
Indeed..
The pilots believed they could fix what was wrong and continued flying. Maybe it's better they did or they would have given up. Fear is an uncomfortable feeling and destructive to behavior.
Yup. "Here we go."
I doubt I shall get to die with such measured words.
@@sharoncassell9358 Fate doesn't require our acceptance, so why give it in such a situation.
Exceptional explanation for us non-pilots. Thank you. I'm glad the pilots were recognized for their amazing efforts under an unthinkable crisis situation.
Thank you for covering this as this incident has stayed with me for over a decade. It's the only time I've actually cried watching a plane crash documentary. The pilots were so heroic and unwavering in their attempts. May God bless their souls and the souls of all aboard💖
As a FAA licensed A&P and former Part 147 instructor this tragic event hits especially close to home. When I was going through school and was in my turbine engine theory section, my instructor was none other than John Liotine. Those that know this story, will know that John Liotine was a senior mechanic at Alaska Airlines prior to this event. Prior you ask? Yes. He knew of the short cuts and improper practices that were being done, and he went to the FAA as a whistleblower. He was fired and blackballed as a result, and the FAA was actually already investigating Alaska Airlines when this event happened. He was terminated for trying to save lives, and Alaska Airlines knew it. They are as complicit in this as a get-away driver would be in a bank robbery and should have faced charges. Sure people were fired, and they found new jobs but, John, a highly experienced and knowledgeable aviator was out of the industry he loved so much, just for trying to save lives. Sure at the end you mention procedures were added and the number of flight hours between inspections were cut, and you allude to these being a good thing to not frighten nervous fliers but, in the aviation industry we have a term for procedures, fixes, and additional equipment that is there to protect the lives of the people inside, and that term is: tombstone technology. While airlines are not actively trying to kill you, your safety is not their primary motivator. They want your money. Nothing more, nothing less. The reason the why the FAA pushes Advisory Circulars in to full blown Airworthiness Directives is because when given the option, airlines want to save money and they will not comply with an AC. It's not till they have to comply with ADs by law, that they usually comply with something that could have been out for years already.
Huh we do know another company who's done that recently (cough cough 737 MAX)
Did the FAA or any auditing organizations hire Mr. Liotine at least? It's really horrible what they did to him!!
and even after the AD was issued and the jack screws were supposedly brought up to standard, AL was found to be out of compliance AGAIN.
Cargo door problems on several airliners had similar problems with long delayed fixes leading to major crashes.
That's corporate---it's all about the money & the stock prices (a major source of executive compensation) & the settlements they pay from lawsuits is just a pice of doing business. Wouldn't it be cool if an airline found at fault in loss of life had to fire permanently evry single board member / upper management person? That might get their attention! And any maintenance warning overridden has to be presented to the manufacturer engineers for mediation. But fof course congress doesn't want to piss off the big donors, especially since the Supreme Court gave corporations the status of individuals.
My favorite quote from the pilots of this flight:
“Are we flying?”
“We’re flying…”
Despite knowing they were soon gonna die, they still had the best positive outlook and stayed in control as long as they could.
Yes
Just stumbled onto your channel while listening to other documentary-styled disaster videos. I love how you go into the relevant background for each story and give detailed explanations for each issue that comes up in the video. I'm happy to add another channel to my collection :)
The story of this flight brought me to tears. I feel for the terrifying ordeal of the passengers and the heroic efforts of the pilots. Your presentation is informative and gives all these unfortunate people the dignity that they deserve. Thank you.
As a mechanic, this accident absolutely makes my blood boil 😡 I personally have done several jackscrew lubrications at my current company and I make sure to thoroughly coat ever surface of that screw and the nut with as much grease as possible specifically to prevent this from ever happening again
So tell us Mr. Wrencher, how long should this grease job have taken, one or four hours? Four hours seems an awfully long time to complete this task.
@@guckertott honesty I can’t really say since I’ve never done it on an MD-80 specifically; the airplanes that I work on aren’t t-tails like the MD-80’s and there’s plenty of space inside the tail to get at the jackscrew so lubrication rarely takes more than 30-45 minutes. In a t-tail like the MD-80 the space is much more confined, it very well might take much longer, but I personally can’t really say.
@@NinjagoGuy416Thay would eat into the profitability of the shareholders which isn't in the best interests of the company.
If safety isn't paramount - what 'best interests' might you be referring to then?@@reez1728
4 hours is a very reasonable time limit for a jackscrew lube on any DC9 series family. You would need 3 techs (1 driving a tug, 2 on the tailstand to guide it into the plane) then take off the doghouse on the top of the stab, 2 sealed side panels and the banana fairings on either side of the stab. Douglas engineers notoriously Hate technicians so a lot of the fasteners are in hard to reach places and go in specific patterns. Once all that is off you lube the stab with an inspector watching. Then you cycle the stab, put everything back together and pull the tail stand. So yeah 4 hours is very realistic..
I'm an A&P...this series were the first big plane I worked
After AF447 and UPS6, this is the third most harrowing crash for me. 💔 Haven't even started watching yet, but I already know you felt a lot for these pilots and I also have a knot in my stomach in advance. RIP.
Yes, this is a bad one for sure.
I hope you will find the video interesting though, I’ve put a lot of work into describing the details in this one.
@@MentourPilot Your videos are always interesting to watch and rewatch. Will definitely do. Thank you! ✈️
@@MentourPilot In one point you gave advice to future pilots.Was there any chance to get out of this situation ?
@@nihatomer1859 I think there's no way to know for sure, but I feel like the NTSB recommendation to stop retrying the switches after they don't work the first time works off the assumption that had they stopped trying to fix the problem, the jackscrew may have held on long enough for the flight to land. Obviously, we'll never know, but repeatedly trying the switches (not abnormal at the time) definitely increased the forces on the whole assembly. Even if they'd just tried once though, with how badly maintained the screw was, it may have totally failed at some point during the flight regardless.
for me, JAL 123 takes the cake. The fact that those guys went through 44 minutes of agony knowing that they were going to crash blows my mind.
You’ve gotta keep these famous disaster videos coming. You obviously have the resources and capacity to produce this quality now, it shows! Loving it.
Of all the accidents that i have reviewed and studied , this is the THE one that has stuck with me and bothered me the most. Truly a heroic crew.
Long-time Seattle resident here. This accident happened a couple of years after I moved there and it was absolutely chilling. To know that so many friends and loved ones had happily climbed on board Alaska flights while this accident was a possibility, made me never fly with them. I did not know how heroic the pilots were until now. Thank you.
i was probaby taking a poo wipe bum
Alaska has had a clean safety record pretty much ever since, though--this led to top-to-bottom reorganization of their safety program and they're consistently rated the best airline in the USA on safety.
It's too bad it took a horrendous incident like this to motivate them to clean up their act, but it did the job.
@@herestoyoudocwholeheartedly agree.
Makes you wonder.
@herestoyoudoc that's the way things go. Look at 9/11 and all the safety regulations that came after, or the Titanic and how it changed the safety regulations for the maritime industry. It always takes a major accident sadly to get things to change for the better
I just took a flight on Alaska last week...glad I watched this now instead of before or I'd be sitting on the plane analyzing every sound and vibration on the flight as if i knew the first thing about planes..but like most of you have said, it's sad it took this to change their safety policies...rip to all on the flight 🙏
I read the CVR transcript some years ago, and it's quite distressing. Speaking as an engineer, fucking about with something mechanical that's slightly broken, never makes the situation better. I can't believe the maintenance engineers were so lax and instead of telling the pilots to not do anything that could make the situation worse, and get the plane on the ground as fast as possible, but instead encouraged them to mess around. Definitely not the place to put the engineering practice of "If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway" into practice.
Indeed, the engineer performance in this case was simply horrible.
I'm an engineer and I have a hard time believing any engineer would make such suggestions. Sounds more like a tech, or worse, a so-called engineer with no formal engineering degree. That's why real engineers can't stand stupid terms like sanitation engineer or railroad engineer. They aren't engineers any more than a lab tech is an MD.
Thank you. Finally, someone who agrees with me - and the unvarnished truth. Everybody seems to think these Pilots were Heroes, including Mentour Pilot. But the reality is that these Pilots took a broken plane that was still controllable and then screwed with it until it catastrophically failed, sealing everybody's Doom. As soon as it lost horizontal control, they should have nursed It to the Ground.
Thank you for saying this. They might have landed safely if the captain had gone by the book and stopped mucking with the trim. Sounds like the FO had a better handle on this and could have brought them home, if he were Captain.
@@privateer0561 To be fair to the pilots, and the maintenance engineers, they probably thought that the system was jammed, and only able to move slightly if they forced it; and never expected that the screw thread on the nut was about to sheer off leaving the whole rear stabiliser to float wildly, as generally all parts of a plane are structurally sound.
This made me cry so hard! Glory to the heroes who tried their best to save the souls on this flight! Indeed they were real life heroes!
As an Alaska Airlines employee of 31 years I can tell you there's not a single day where we don't think about Flight 261 and the 88 souls we lost that day, many of whom were friends and co-workers. The leadership team has changed a lot since 2000 and there's a reason "Owning Safety" became our highest of our company values, our North Star.
Sounds like an HR statement
@@P07AT0 As someone who used to work for Alaska, I can assure you that it isn't. I worked with people who knew those lost on flight 261, and I can tell you that Alaska's work culture changed drastically after this event.
Day 1 of Orientation for ALL employees includes the story of 261, including acknowledgement and ownership of their past mistakes. I have worked for a lot of big corporations, and none of them would ever admit in orientation let alone in their safety culture that their own sh** stinks.
I was unceremoniously let go from Alaska, so I don't exactly hold them in high esteem, but I can confirm that this is something that they took VERY seriously.
@@kitty.miracle Yes, and?
@@P07AT0no need to be a twat, squirt!
And yet you guys fly the MAX. Go figure.
For me, as a pilot, this is the worst accident ever for an accident that is not associated to crew error or fatigue. They were very aware of the problem at hand and tried to solve it to the very las second. Heroes. Brings me to tears.😢
What about Japan Airlines Flight 123? They fought to the very end.
This is, by far, the most terrifying commercial plane crash story I’ve ever heard. The “Cutting Corners” documentary from the early 2000s is extremely good. The actors who played the pilots really did a great job. Recently a new air disasters documentary has come out on Alaska 261 but it’s nowhere near as intense as the older one. Those poor people on board, I cannot imagine.
Love your expertise and insight here. I always had questions (as a non pilot) regarding some of the terminology used in the transcripts (ie “It’s at the stop,” or “This’ll click it off,” etc.). Well done.
I've never outright broken into tears at the end of one of your episodes, Mentour, but this whole scenario just breaks my heart, and I *staunchly admire* the sheer heroism of both the captain and the first officer, who literally did everything they could, even when things were beyond all hope... Their heroism, as pilots, was second to none.
Thanks to you, I also have a new film to check out! Ordered "Flight," and it should be here on the 7th.
Thanks, as always, Mentour, for your amazing documentaries (like this one), and other educational videos on your channel!
It is really incredible how much hard work and heart you put in every video.
These pilots were heroes, they never stopped fighting.
That’s what me and these are trying to do. We want to give that little bit extra to make everyone understand what REALLY happened.
Glad to hear that you like it.
When.n I fixed planes for USAF I fixed a tail motor. Upon climb ing inside the tail I got black grease on my uniform from the jfsck screw. C 141.They made our guys grease the whole length of the ja ck screw. No skipping. I sff ont believe the neglect..
Mentour Pilot, no one and I mean no one explains these incidents better than you do! The level of detail you provide coupled with your amazing insight, in depth explanations, wonderful graphics and the thoughtful way you put it all together and deliver it to us is exemplary!
Yes sir
It's true
Indeed.
Wow. You did great job explaining this terrible disaster and the heroic efforts of the crew.
as a flight attendant, i cant imagine what my colleagues in the cabin must've felt. it brings tears to my eyes and i hope no accidents ever happen again while we are 40.000ft up in the sky.
Great job with this one Peter ! These pilots were the true heroes, they never for a moment gave up, they even flew the plane upside down , they gave everything they had. Rip to all the people who lost their life’s
It's horrible. Same issue happened with Yak-42's jackscrew on 28 June 1982. But in that case speed was higher, so stabilizer fell off and plane literally fell apart at 5000 meters. Very sad type of crashes, where pilots did nothing wrong.
I used to be an incredibly nervous flyer. Key word: *used*. The first time I flew since 2000, my husband had to get me absolutely *hammered* so I wouldn't have a panic attack. But since he introduced me to your videos, Petter, as well as those being done by Mini Air Crash Investigations and Disaster Breakdowns, I have become a *much* better flyer. The last time we flew, I consumed *zero* alcohol!
Thank you for making these videos, Petter!
I’d also recommend the Flight Safety Detectives
I love all of your de-briefs on all the accidents and incidents. Every one has been incredibly thorough and insightful that all of us as pilots and mechanics can use in every day life, I look forward to each and every one that you put out. (I just wish there were less distracting adds)
However, you do an awesome job, your debriefing surely helps us to stay better informed and definitely could make the difference of life or death involving pilots/mechanics that have remembered your very insightful information. I can say that as a retired airline pilot, I definitely think your formula is perfect, Very Nicely Done indeed!
David :)
A customer and friend of mine .. Capt. Mike Wren .. who was an Alaska pilot at the time this happened flew that exact MD-80 out of Mexico literally the day before flight 182 went down, it shook him up quite a bit. He transitioned shortly after to the Boeing 737.
I’ve had the privilege of working with Alaska Airlines flight training department and this accident was discussed many times with pilots who knew and had flown with the flight crew. Your description, explanation as well analysis was spot on. Your RUclips channel is excellent and not just for this episode!
Thank you for continuing to share these videos with us. As a pilot myself it’s a situation we hope we never face. I study a lot of aviation incidents and this one is a heartbreaking tale. Those pilots fought till the end to try and save the plane and passengers. It highlights the constant need for good maintenance and prioritising safety above all else.
Correct! Thanks for your nice words
as a pilot myself without any videos to back up my claims or knowledge to back up my comments i would like the uploader to kiss my bum crack for being a good lying sheet to make myself feel better about having nothing to add to the video other than my false sense of my importance.
This whole situation is so tragic yet so inspiring. My heart goes out to those directly affected by this disaster. As a non pilot I find that stories like these make me want to get better at what I'm doing cuz it reminds me of the consequences your actions or inaction has. I really appreciate your work and hope more people see this
What a terrible situation. Like it wasn't horrifying enough heading towards the ocean, but to be inverted as well. Wow! Those poor passengers, too. How terrifying it must have been. They fought so hard against a hopeless fight. I had heard this story before, but you explained the details about the mechanics and what not so thoroughly. Still so sad.
I lived in Port Hueneme where there is now a memorial on the beach to all those lost on this flight. That crash was another truly tragic event and one I will never forget.