Broken Wrist Positions - Understanding HEMA
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- Hosts Sean Franklin and Nicole Smith explain the mechanics behind proper wrist positioning and their use in cuts and thrusts with both the German Messer and Longsword.
Follow us on Social Media!
www.bloodandiro...
/ bloodandironhema
/ bloodandironwma
/ bloodandironmartialarts
Teller of the Tales Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons...
And Nicole's faces while defending were great xP
ya xD ahaha
Haha, Nicole's face at 1:51
You guys rock.
Due to habits carried over from sport fencing I had been using the broken wrist position in my rapier fencing. This lead to the very type of tendonitis you describe in your video. About a year ago, after watching Gary Chelak's video on hand position for Giganti rapier, I switched to the correct wrist alignment. Unfortunately my wrist still has some swelling just down from the thumb. I will be recommending this video to all my fencing partners so they can avoid my mistake.
The quality of the videos has always been good, but this last one was outstanding! Subtle humour, great explanations and examples, and the fact that the music covers brief moments of silence between showcasings of the information and the sparring feels fantastic! You can really feel the effort you guys are putting into this channel and I can't wait to see more growth and pristine content from you guys!
An official poll for you!
Do you like the background music? Or would you prefer it silent? Please reply to this comment with which you prefer.
not a fan of the music but maybe different music?
+Blood and Iron HEMA
Definitely subtle background music like this one. Gives the video a very nice vibe.
+Blood and Iron HEMA
This music is nice and subtle, so I think it's good to have it in the background.
+Blood and Iron HEMA +1 for subtle background music. As long as the music isn't too loud or distracting, I'm all for it.
+Blood and Iron HEMA It's really nice to have it and it's some of the best things in the video. But i don't like it. Remove it!
Real Filipino martial arts that focuses on the blade.has the exact same thought process. awesome video. -Tom KOA
Good and solid information for beginners. Well done!
Yeah, but accidentally only for begginers, experienced fighter will make his situation quite difficult in case of "langen ort" based swordplay...
Having done my best to take everything you guys have taught in these videos as this is some of the BEST instruction on the internet....
This still remains the most difficult thing for me to do. Part of that is I have no one to spar with which means that over-swinging is very easy for me. Nothing to stop the blade, so it's all on me.
I can, however, keep a strong wrist if I use a hammer grip on my feder but it just feels like I am limiting myself.
I never fully understood the concept, I'm certain this will help me a ton while I practice and spar.
I also appreciate the subtle humor in some scenes.
For the music, I'm a fan of the background music, but less of a fan of the intro/outro music.
Great video as always. The background music was great non intrusive.
While I don't practice I love watching these video's for the knowledge base!
Nice tips, thank you. I will pay more attention to the broken wrist for sure.
This is how you HEMA. Good job, as always.
excellent topic. Seeing it in practice it becomes a no brainer
I really liked the last sentence there - and now of to the blades.
Very solid information. Thank you so much. Please continue this great work
It's true that one needs to do special strength & flexibility training to be able to "hyperextend" the wrist on a heavy blade without damaging the tendons and ligaments. But if one takes the time to develop that strength and flexibility, it open a whole range of fast, powerful techniques that are sometimes called "jabs".
If you're going to attempt it, start out with isometrics for a few months before attempting cutting, and it's critical to learn how to equalize the force at the end of the jab. (The main force of of the jab is applied before the end of the movement, so the equalization of force doesn't diminish the power of the cut.)
But it's not recommended unless you're willing to put in the time-most people just injure themselves attempting it, and one of the reasons most longsword fencers are well advised to keep their wrists straight with heavier swords is to avoid that damage.
Important caveat: I started training to be able to do this at 20, so that I can still do it at 50. It might not be viable if one starts after their body has begun to break down in their 30's. And it still took me about 6 months to build the strength to do it with a 5lb longsword, even after decades of one-handed, with periods of recovery between periods of intensive strength training.
Rolling the wrists with a heavy shot put is a good exercise to train for this.
Do you think that this is also true for the Scheitelhau? Or is that the exeption to the rule.
+gurkfisk89 I was going to ask the same thing. Thumbing up so hopefully you get an answer.
In german academic sabre fencing many cuts are done with broken wrist position. In books like Friedrich Schulze " Die Säbelfechtkunst" there are many photos who show a broken wirst position.
In other sources for this fighting style, too.
But in academic sabre fencing your goal is to fight the duel and not to kill the opponent. Maybe it is done to keep the energy of the blows low.
You could have shown how many fencing weapons have tilted or pistol shape handle to compensate for the curve of the wrist. Good video as always.
+Sannidor Good observations, but those aren't swords.
Thank you so much
awesome vid!! thank you, I really appreciated it!
You two are awesome!!!!!
would you please cover on how to do the falso manco parry from manciolino's spada solo with proper body alignment. I have a hard time doing that...
What's the purpose of hand shifting then? I'm one of those self-taught people so I always assumed that moving the thumb position was to keep from hyperextending the ligament while also being able to get the "full velocity" you refered to.
Yes!
Nice video who puts your message straight to the point. I have a little bit off-topic question: what Langes Messer simulators are you showing here? I find it extremely difficult to find appropiate simulators for Langes Messer as most tend to be far to light or far too heavy. So I am always looking for new manufacturers for them.
Does that mean you're not able to stab in a straight line but only a little upwards? When i try to stab without a broken wrist, the point of my weapon always shows up, which means i have to be much closer to penetrate right? Oh and the music is a bit distracting for my taste, something calmer would be nice. Thanks for the good tutoring.
+Harald Tesla 2:01 I wouldn't say you have to be much closer, but somewhat closer. Remember, that little bit of difference doesn't mean as much when you thrust through your opponent rather than just trying to touch them.
I recommend the videos on schiessen from SprechfensterBlog. They do use the maximum reach and you don't need to overextend your wrist to do this. Just use a different way to grip the sword.
And I wouldn't say sporty points. These thrusts penetrate deeply. The thing is the following. If you are that little bit faster, you don't have to worry about your sword getting pushed aside. Your point is stuck in your opponents throat. I wouldn't call that sporty.
What about side sword and saber systems where there are frequent wrist cuts?
+Will nonya Keeping the wrist in good alignment for the impact is still of the utmost importance. Doing a proper wrist cut is actually extremely challenging, involving transmitting power from the hips all the way through the arm without much motion in-between, some well timed finger relaxing/griping, and ensuring a strong structure to deliver the cut. Unfortunately most people skip this and use it as the quickest way to flick the sword around and get a touch (as opposed to delivering a real cut.)
does it matter if i end my cut in a broken wrist position?? because when i hit the taget my wrists are in good form, but after i hit the target they fall in a brokenwrist position. does this matter??
What is your interpretation of the scheitelhau? I have seen some interpretations that involve a "broken" wrist position.
+TheMissingno We are aiming for a little more general audience rather than getting into the nitty-gritty of KDF meisterhau, but suffice to say if you break your wrist you are in an exceedingly poor position to deliver the follow up plays specified, or keep your edge in good alignment for the initial cut. In this case it becomes all about what you do with the grip on the lead hand.
In my club I believe it is shown with a thumb grip instead of the regular grip so that you can achieve a stable structure, however I'm not completely sure because I'm currently learning arming sword and at my club Longsword is taught after you've gone through the basics of arming sword and sword & buckler.
Curious, what type of metal are the swords made out of? thanks!
Forgive me if I'm confusing something, but is there a similarity between the "broken" wrist position and a handshake grip?
+Tshilaba Verite It depends on who you ask what a 'handshake grip' is. But changing your grip is one way to get the sword to rotate further while not having your wrist break. As to people who switch to a handshake grip and still break the wrist.... :(
Does the thumb in line with the false edge maintain structure for thrusting?
In certain positions in can help create structure, yes. You tend to lose range though, so it's a trade-off.
How do you quantify systems that have such wrist positions? For instance; Meyer's dussack guards of Langort and Wechsel, Luckecher's planting, Destreza's first position, Bolognese guards of Guardia d’Intrare, Coda Lunga e Distesa, and Porta di Ferro Larga.
I'm adding this little bit since people get pissy when you ask for clarification on the internet: I'm not arguing with you. I'm just being inquisitive.
+Bailis Eugene Generally when people arrive at broken wrist positions it is usually a combination of:
1) Poor illustration quality
2) Not using grip/finger position adjustments to facilitate the technique.
An extremely large number of devices are completely impossible to perform with a hammer grip on the sword, unless you want to break your wrist structure. Pre-modern illustrations have a lot of wiggle room. Performing techniques in ways that a) don't injure yourself and b) match the text (including facilitating the listed follow up devices at speed and intensity) is much more important.
+Bailis Eugene The artists whose work shows the techniques in the manuals were usually not practitioners, and as such didn't really understand what they were looking at. You have to take the images with a grain of salt.
This doesn't hold with Thibault's destreza-based system, though. He fights almost completely from your "bad" rapier position, and it's both illustrated and described in enormous detail, with a good 500 words describing exactly how to hold the sword near the start of his book without much room for misunderstanding, and dozens of illustrations consistently showing it throughout his ~600 page volume. Since Thibault's system is fairly heavily rooted in destreza by his own admission, it stands to reason that destreza also uses a broken wrist position.
So there are at least two systems that demonstrably utilize this kind of grip.
You think Thibault has poor illustration quality? LoL!
So Thibault and other Destreza masters were wrong? Because they completely say to hold the sword, in pages of detail, to hold the sword the exact opposite this video says. Yeah, I'm going to say they knew what they were talking about.
If you guys see this:
I've been doing drills with a practice longsword and I'm perfectly able to keep my right hand properly aligned.
However, my left hand I can't help but over extend as I'm rotating the blade. I don't know if this is an issue anyone else has had or if it's even an issue at all.
If you guys (or anyone else) knows anyways to fix this aside from time, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Thanks in advance.
That generally means you're pushing the sword around with your right hand, instead of pulling it with the left and using it as a pivot point. Check out some of the videos on our basic cuts (How to perform a downward cut, and under cut) and take a closer look at what that looks like.
It's a good topic for another time though.
Blood and Iron HEMA
Thanks guys! That makes a lot more sense now.
This would also be valid if I try to trust with a curved blade like some sabres or a dussack?
+Condottier Absolutely.
Thank you!
I disagree. If you go through the treatises it shows broken wrist positions plenty of times, in addition you'll see it in other sword martial arts like iaido as part of the follow through of the cut, or kenjutsu for cutting at your maximum reach and kendo (although I know people in the HEMA community don't take kendo very seriously.) Although in all these circumstances its not as extreme as you show. However it's something to be aware of situationally for sure.
Yay I Got Moar!
Why are emphasizing the force? you practice unarmored fencing, it doesn't take running through some one to kill someone, or cutting there head off. a fast hit in a unarmored with a sharp blade with make someone bleed to death with minimal force. IF this wasn't the case, we wouldn't see thumb grips on later sabers, with basically encourage high speed snaps cuts.
Thanks for that detail. Now I will have practice it. The devil is in the details. Also, long live Thor!
damn i wish i knew this more early. my wrist is killing me...
Please, name of the intro song ?
And the outro?
+The Virtuoso BetonEngel
Intro - Schleichfahrt
Outro - Vas Bist du
+Julian Schuetze Thank you!
66 likes
I took a hema class, guy broke my left wrist in some fancy lock he did on me when our swords where binded. I haven't been back sense because the shit wont seem to heal and I don't have insurance to see a doctor and even if I did they just x ray it tell me its broke and send me away like they have every other broken bone I ever had. Some of these HEMA instructor guys aren't professional and let their ego run ramped resulting in hurting or turning off new students.
Coolnicknameguy That's awful, we're sorry to hear about your experience :(
Hopefully your wrist does recover quickly. It might help a bit, but look up muscle release and work on your tricep and forearm, it'll loosen the arm up and help speed recovery. And wear a brace as much as possible obviously