This is so interesting! I’ve been an Easterner living in the the West my whole life and have long struggled with these questions of East and West. This idea of the East as a “source of light” but which is “unable to build its own city” is a really really interesting and I think accurate idea. As an Easterner and an Indian of Hindu background, I remember feeling that there was a lot of wisdom in our religion and way of life, but that the West was more organised, reliable and somehow more “civilised”. Economic development, modern ideas, science, technology, all of these things have been imported into the East from the West, and this is why so many Easterners choose to come study and live in the West. What I think people in both the East and the West fail to realise is that it’s not just technology that’s been imported, it’s a set of values, which includes: fairness, equality, reliability, legal systems, property rights etc. Which in my view ultimately trace back to Christianity . Modern India (for example) would not be what it is today without these things, yet, they are oblivious to it. I am really looking forward to the next video in this series.
"it’s not just technology that’s been imported, it’s a set of values, which includes: fairness, equality, reliability, legal systems, property rights etc. Which in my view ultimately trace back to Christianity." Very well said. Yes, brother, I agree with you as a Far Easterner living in the West.
I agree, it's interesting hearing about that idea of the East as a “source of light” but which is “unable to build its own city”. As they talked about the positive as true enlightenment and the negative of decadence, it mirrors the positive and negative of the 'west' as organised and rational yet brutal and base. It's almost a distinction of spirit and body, that has rhymed almost everywhere I've heard of (Scottish/English, English/French, Western Rome/Eastern Rome, Frankish/Greek, Rome/Persia; the only outlier I can think of is the Mongols, but they're always an exception)
This is correct. I am descended from around 50 Roman families and about a similar number of Jews from Ancient Rome that settled in and around Cochin, in Kerala, India. The Roman families encountered Apostle Thomas. Apostle Thomas was simply following established Roman routes. It is believed that the direct encounter was significant, conversion in thought began. However, only after Rome officially changed towards Christianity, was it formalised as such in our ancestral family also. So many families claimed to have the right version to this day. There are Marthomites, Jacobites, Orthodox, Syrian, etc Some succumbed to the Pope’s armies many centuries later to re-align with Rome, some escaped to the jungles for centuries retaining older customs and ways. The Jews who look the same as the Christian families in external appearance remained “separate” and went to Israel in 1930 as that nation cohered. The Dutch were surprised to find such a wealthy settlement of ancient Roman sellers who were ancient Christians and tried to marry into our families to get access to vast lands and trading contacts. Later Portuguese tried the same. To this day most of the cash crops like coffee, tea, and vast tracts of lands are with a closely knit group of related families , descendants of this ancient group. Without doubt, it is one of the oldest, continuous, unbroken line of Christians in the world.
The East is not only India, but China too. And the Chinese had advanced civilizations far earlier and greater than Europe did for a very long time, so I'm not sure about this idea of the East "being a source of light but unable to build it's own city"
The St Thomas Christians of India are still very much around and very worth checking out for anyone interested in the history of Christianity. It’s so interesting to note that Christianity in India predates the Roman Catholic Church.
The apostle, Thomas, went to India and the apostle Peter, to Rome. Whenever there is a name change in scripture it is significant of a new and important role God has for that person. Jesus changed Simon to Peter (meaning rock). Jesus chose Peter to be the leader of his band of twelve. The rest is history. I believe both Thomas and Peter were martyred for the Faith.
@@CoranceLChandler I thought it was pretty interesting (although I’m not sure most Indians / Asians would agree!). The notion of the East as a “source of light” but which “cannot build its own city” without help (from the West) actually sounds about right to me. India (and the rest of East Asia) is a land of great wisdom, but which struggled to develop its own technology, systems etc until these things were introduced by the West.
@@shivabreathes that is a fascinating and rather humble take. Why do you think this is? And do you know of any Eastern philosophers or psychologists who deal with symbology from their perspective?
I anticipated those objections. ("Eurocentric!" "Whatabout Australia!") But this is so much better than my best answer. ("Less than 15% of the world's population lives in the Southern Hemisphere." Plus: It's mostly ocean.) I'm still so slow, learning to think in the symbolic frame.
This is such a great series. why does Richard not have anything more in line with this. I REALLY think you guys need to work on an actual series like this that starts from the "beginning" and works through history in this light, rather than jumping around from topic to topic. This story is crucial. It's really the only story their is. All others are nested inside it. Great work guys. Jonathan, I'm sorry for all the things I said, lol. I'm working on it. =P
So much good stuff in this and can't wait for the next one. Fourth son of Noah, Greek gods and Japheth, East the source of spiritual, West the embodied, Christianity from France to China, and my favorite any story about St Thomas. What's not to love!!!
Thank you!!! I depart for Japan in just a few days! Since the pandemic I have been separated from my girlfriend for 2.5 years of lockdowns and now that things are opening up she is briefly coming here tmrw and then in 14 days I am finally leaving to go back and live in Japan for a while. Japan and my girlfriend’s curiosity with Christianity is what pointed me back to my Christian heritage and ultimately to walking into an Orthodox Church. I am not yet in the nave of The Church, but I intend on attending Churches in Japan I’ve found and maintaining communication with my priest back home. It is very good to see the universal history series reaching the Far East and so well timed! I want only to submit in the proper way and hopefully this will enable me to understand how to do it properly within the context of The story. I have always thought of the Far East as opposing the Far West where I grew up, I.e. if they say “Japan is a land where if the nail stands up it will be hammered down” America is a land where the standing nail is rewarded and used to hang hats, the bent nail is artistic and the rusty nail is as they say “aesthetic”. This is so well timed and I have so much to say about it, but mostly thank you!!! God bless! Christ is risen!
Good luck. Japan is a really, really interesting place, on multiple levels. I lived there for 4 years when I was in my early 20s. It is the opposite of America in so many ways. It takes a while to see it as they are very good at maintaining a facade of modernity, technology etc. But under the surface they are very much still living by the values of a 2000 year old agrarian, Buddhist society. It is a very unique place. You will love it.
By the way, if you haven’t seen it do check out the movie “Silence” by Martin Scorsese. About Christian missionaries in Japan in the 18th century who are persecuted by the Japanese authorities.
I’m 11 minutes in, and I already can’t wait for more episodes. Lately, I’ve wanted to really visualize and imagine early Christian Roman/Eastern Roman society. As a Christian Persian, and just as a person, I really find these cultural overlaps fascinating. Thank you so much for making this happen. Blessings 🙏
Glad we’re back to universal history relating to a geographical location; the last several videos were good but I really love the ones where the topic is the distant past and focused on a specific region of the world. The Ethiopia series was awesome. Keep em coming guys, love this series.
There is so much mystery in China. It's probably the oldest continuous civilisation. Before watching, the symbolism of the far East seems to me related to the rising Sun. 'The East' to an enlightened modern mind is a relative place, without any true location. So there is no reason people in the far East should see themselves as closer to the Sun. Despite this, ancient Japanese saw their land ( "Nihon" ) as "the land of the rising sun". The fact that they adopted this Solar symbolism suggests the world truly has a shape.
Here in Oregon our National Guard uses the symbol of the setting sun as our shoulder patch. The highway from Portland to the coast is called the Sunset Hwy after the 41st Infantry Sunset Division. Bookends from Japan to the west coast of the US.
This is correct. I am descended from around 50 Roman families and about a similar number of Jews from Ancient Rome that settled in and around Cochin, in Kerala, India. The Roman families encountered Apostle Thomas. Apostle Thomas was simply following established Roman routes. It is believed that the direct encounter was significant, conversion in thought began. However, only after Rome officially changed towards Christianity, was it formalised as such in our ancestral family also. The reason this official change in Rome is remembered in our families is because there was already an established idea of what Christ-devotee and living in the way as “Christian”, the ritual of last supper etc was already established for 300 years among our families by time when Rome adopted Christianity. So many families claimed to have the right version to this day. Some have two fish like symbols in a circle, some have a triangle with a circle, and some had cross already. After Rome officially became Christian, the local King further extended support to our families to establish this new religion more. We already had extensive agreements. There are Marthomites, Jacobites, Orthodox, Syrian, etc Some succumbed to the Pope’s armies many centuries later to re-align with Rome, some escaped to the jungles for centuries retaining older customs and ways. The Jews who look the same as the Christian families in external appearance remained “separate” and went to Israel in 1930 as that nation cohered. The Dutch were surprised to find such a wealthy settlement of ancient Roman sellers who were ancient Christians and tried to marry into our families to get access to vast lands and trading contacts. Later Portuguese tried the same. To this day most of the cash crops like coffee, tea, and vast tracts of lands are with a closely knit group of related families , descendants of this ancient group. Without doubt, it is one of the oldest, continuous, unbroken line of Christians in the world.
That Acts of Thomas at 40:16 is a perversion of religion. Not that charity isn't good for the community. And there is some overlap between charity and spirituality, but they are *not* the same thing. That king in the story was *not* saved by Thomas - he was materialistic before and he was materialistic afterwards - it's just now 'he has a palace in the afterlife'. Real spiritual growth means becoming the true master of one's possessions to the point where the possessions can easily be discarded. The problem for the king is the fact his desire for a palace makes him a slave to that palace which is ultimately a transient object. The king shouldn't have any emotional need for a palace. Under typical circumstances a king should live in one to further his goal of being the leader of his people, but an ideal king should be willing to live in a tent should it be convenient for the situation the nation faces. The palace should be a tool to further a spiritual goal. The giving of those possessions to the poor as often recommended by religions is a *side effect* . The point is a person should have no attachment to objects. This "spirituality = charity" is the exact type of framework Pope Francis operates on, and the exact reason many Catholics have a problem with him. Because if charity is all that matters, why stick up for doctrine? Well without doctrine, and with a drive for charity - that is a recipe towards institutions becoming the slave of the envy of the masses - which is that sirens song of socialism. So I'm glad the Acts of Thomas is restricted to apocrypha.
Good points! On the other hand, is it not also possible that consistently practicing charity could itself have the effect of loosening one's attachments to possessions? Sort of a "fake it til you make it" approach?
It's a funny story, but it does impugn Thomas somewhat It's definitely fraud, which is lying, which is bad. And you're right, someone else can't make your moral decisions for you. I wonder what the Gnostics thought about theft, since it's merely material?
I can see the excess of light in eastern religions for they see themselves as God or same substance of him, while as you go west you start seeing atheism. The fact that sun rises in the east goes very well with the hinduistic teachings.
Mysticism is more properly preserved in the East. The mind body connection concept has never been lost and, more importantly, practical methods for acting with this relationship are sophisticated and well understood. We are rediscovering what they mastered 1000 years ago. This is not my conjecture it is my experience living in Eastern monasteries
The Eastern Orthodox understood this as well and have a serious mysticism, it is that they don't accept all religious experiences and practices. It's a false representation to advocate for a universalism and mysticism without stricter discernment outside our tradition.
Cool exploration. Really, really appreciated Jonathan's acknowledgement that e.g. aboriginals have their own real vision of the world map, so to speak. I think this project is fine if understood as as an attempt to view the world from a medieval lens, which of course like post moderns trying to view the world from nowhere or from a different indigenous culture can never be fully realized because we don't live in that world, just as you can never go back to another era.
Could you please elaborate distinction between India and China as we am from in between land we are usually left out between these two gaints. Yours work could really helpful for linking our side of world to that of the centre - Jerusalem.
@@LD-2401 I haven't seen every anime, but from the ones I did, I haven't seen a single church with a cross on it. What I would say IS very prevalent, is a medieval european city type structure.
Great and fascinating discussion, as usual. I would like to point out the Eastward journey of the Western Russian missionaries (e.g., St Herman) to Alaska, where they protected the indigenous Aleuts, Yupik, and other peoples from the depredations if the Russian fur traders. Their understanding and gentleness with these peoples les to the acceptance and local fervency if Orthodox Christianity, which still remains, despite the loss of citizenship when the US took over, the Bolshevik revolution, which cut off their priests and church from the mother diocese, and western church missionaries, especially Presbyterians, who tried and largely succeeded in wiping out their culture.
So very AWESOME guys! Very easy to follow...smooth...interesting educational story telling. A lil bit of everything! I enjoyed the way that you both presented it as a timeliness. Alot of times I can't follow or understand either of you...and then you both together🤣 But hear my comment....that I really enjoy you ...and try to figure out your stuff
While listening, the question presented itself: do scientists and the spirit of secular together try to write a universal cosmological “history” where man is alone in the universe?
Interesting enough, when you view the world map with Jerusalem at the center, it also makes sense why God would incarnate and reveal Himself to mankind in the form of a human being exactly in that geographical location. The land of Canaan was (and still is to a large extent) the crossroads of all great ancient civilizations and cultures. It makes perfect sense that the Almighty would send His Son exactly there. It would also explain why Canaan is the Promised Land and why the Israelites were sent there in the first place - to protect it and prepare it for the coming of God's Son.
It also explains why he had them create the ark of the covenant. To give that nation a real/physical reason to continue to be in that geographical location.
@@JohnSmith-wo2fzIt does make sense of all the trouble God went through to get them in that land. Also, the fact that Christ came during the reign of the first Roman emperor is the same idea, just in time vs. space
Richard, do you have any interest in video games? Elden Ring seems to be extremely rich in references to mythology and Christian symbolism, and it would be very interesting to see what you might find to comment on. In particular, what triggered some recognition in this discussion was the strange reference to giant ants. In Elden Ring, there is an eternal cursed city that exists underground. There are giant ants alongside some clearly eastern-coded warriors (some of whom ride the ants like mounts) who wear white flowing clothing with their armor and use whip-swords (evocative of a strange flexible sword that actually existed in India). In this case, the giant ants might just come from it being an underground world, but it's just funny that this medieval-style world would also have the eastern/India-style area associated with giant ants...
Been reading the book of changes(basically the root foundation of all of Chinese philosophy and thought once they first became a civilization) and finding a lot of similarities with Mathew’s book, wondering if he drew on it at all….(the circle, square symbols in his book are a lot like the yin Yang ☯️ symbol and it’s symbolism…. So really looking forward to this episode
I couldn't help but see the similarity between Jonathan and Matthieu... What does Matt believe btw? Since he's not Orthodox I'm curious about that, and how your relationship is affected by that.
@@PoesieUndGlaube That's so weird, considering all the insight that that man has. One would think he would be all over Orthodoxy. I guess the fact that he can explain all those concepts to a modern mind is his own undoing.
@@PoesieUndGlaube yeah, I heard that too, but did he convert? My question was more about his religion, not things that may be his intellectual leanings. Reading Jewish or Rabbinical teaching does not make him a Jew. I'm wondering if he converted, if he was a perennialist, or what tradition or practice he is following, since I recall seeing Matt dressed in black, but I couldn't tell if it was a priest's robe or what.
The way I read the Scripture, wrt Thomas is that he was one of twins, and he was called Didemus, because male, identical twins are indistinguishable. It's easier to call them Twin than it is to figure out which one you're talking to. Instead of having to ask, are you Thomas, or are you (name of other twin)? You just call him Twin, especially if it's just as likely to be one of them as the other. I have Twin cousins. They are female, and once they were grown, we could usually tell them apart, but when they were children, even their own mother dispensed with names. They were just, "The Twins, Y'all Twins," or "One of the Twins". My aunt would address them saying, "Go get your Twin." When asked which one they were, they were as likely to answer with their twins name as their own, and occasionally, they would answer at the same time with the same name, revealing their game by mistake. 😊 Certainly Jesus knew which one was his disciple, which might have been what convinced doubting Thomas to follow Him.
Jonathan if you get a moment I think you’d find a lot of material in this interview about Russia ruclips.net/video/OSiFaDlIeO0/видео.html with Alexandr Dugan very useful. The very last few minutes specifically go into his mystical ideas of Russia and if you haven’t researched him. His book Putin vs. Putin will likely have incredible gems in it for you
The voyage of Rabban Bar Sauma. Is there some matieral/books on this story? I've only found one source "The travels of Bar Sauma In Asia and Europe" But there is little details in that material. Would be thankful if anyone had any tips.
As a big fan of Bob Marley and the message of One Love, and Rastafari he managed to spread to the 4 corners of the earth through reggae music and having noticing your interest in Ethiopia I wonder if you would be interested in making a video looking into Bob Marley and the Rastafari religion and why they became so popular worldwide? Apparently he believed Emporer Haile Selassie was the incarnation of the second coming of Christ.
Absolutely fascinating talk! Thanks so much Jonathan and Richard. How do you spell the 4th son of Noah? Jonatos? I tried to google about him but came up blank
so weird that people say this stuff doesn't apply in Japan... I actually study Japanese mythology and find that it's really fascinating how similar in theme it is to Christianity. I honestly think that the Japanese and I have a lot more in common than japanese people would have with modernity
Just to add to this discussion, There are a number of myths, and mythological elements, in Japanese mythology which are comparable to those in other traditions. One I find interesting is that in the Kojiki (one of the two oldest books written describing Japanese religion and cultural history, as it was created over 1400 years ago), at the beginning of time there are three gods who arise uncreated, and with no sex characteristics, unlike other gods who are born or created and can be identified as male or female. These three are known as the three gods of creation and indeed under some shinto traditions they are identified as being the source of all things in the world, particularly Ame-no-minaka-nushi-no-kami, whose name means something akin to Lord at the center of heaven. In another myth, when Ookuninishi, another important god dies, it is one of these three who ressurect him, and it is only them who have this power over life and death. It is very fascinating that this trinity of gods is 1) the first to arise, 2) not tied to a specific bodily form or sex as others are 3) are a trinity. The story of creation, wherein the primordial choas splits into light elements (heaven) and heavy elements (earth) is rather interesting as well, and at first there is only a great expanse of water. These themes are common to most religious traditions, and are present in Christianity. One more interesting point of note is the correspondence between the world elohim in Hebrew and kami in Japanese, wherein elohim, though often referring to God, can also refer to created divine beings (the divine council), or other denizens of the spiritual realm. Japanese kami is similar, though translate as god in English I find the Hebrew elohim to be a closer fit as to what it means. So few Japanese are aware of these things as secularism and westernization increasingly erode the traditions here though, and it is quite sad as having conversations (and telling people about Christ) would be much easier if they were aware of these parallels and the symbolism behind them. PS. here a bonus connection, the mythological theme of "storm god versus water dragon" is present in Japan with the Tale of Susanoo versus Yamata no Orochi. This is found in the Old Testament when God slays the choas serpent and creates the world, and the fact that it is found around the world is something to take note of.
@@Joraelfa nothing in particular really, you can read the Kojiki for free online with multiple different translations. As it's the source for a lot of these myths it's a must read for anyone interested, but I will say it's often hard to get the deeper meaning without a lot of cultural background in ancient Japan, or without a fair deal of knowledge concerning general mythological and symbolic trends throughout world history. That being said, I highly recommend reading it. Otherwise, doing research in comparative mythology (online or from a book, either is fine although I'd recommend using multiple sources of course) will help introduce some themes to keep an eye out for. Things like the primordial battle against chaos, the existence of a Supreme God, the fight between the storm god and the water serpent, etc... Once you have an idea of those, read the Kojiki, reread the old testament, read any kind of traditional folklore or religious myths (ancient Greek, Native American, Australian Aboriginal, etc...) and look for the themes there. You'll find that many cultures have/had the idea of a Supreme God, different from the others and more powerful (and this is not very much talked about either, outside of some parts of the Christian sphere I guess). Other things line up in curious ways, flood myths, the division of the world into earth, underworld, and heaven, or the existence of a sort of paradise on earth type garden / island/ realm. Gods always come down on mountains, and sure enough even the garden of eden is called the mountain of God in the old testament, and God also gave the revelation to Moses on a mountain. Of course where you want to take this depends on your personal beliefs, but from a Christian view at least it provides a lot of evidence that people did once know God, that his attributes are still knowable, and that the themes of Christianity are in common with many cultures around the world, and not a unique or foreign religion only suited to Europe.
@@devinh4725 thanks for your in reply! I'll give it a look. I am a newly converted Orthodox Christian myself (from "new-age"-atheism) and massively uneducated in these regards. So always good to know some places where to start! I have stumbled upon little bits and pieces of ancient stories with clear signs of Christianity glittering through but haven't ever managed to find good material to dig deeper. Probably I was interested in the new age spirituality because of the deep meaning of the culture of the far east and its myths but not knowing what it really meant. The Orthodox Church is the only church where this can be found but even deeper and more spectacular IMO. Thanks again :)
@@Joraelfa No worries, I love to talk about this stuff but rarely get the chance. I'm not Orthodox but I do have a lot of interest in the Orthodox church, it seems to have kept the most "sacred mysteries" approach to things which I much prefer over some other ways of interpreting theology. Anyways good luck with your research, I know you will find it as fascinating as I did!
I'm Scandinavian, and I've never heard of the Hunns as relating to our history. The threat has always primarily been Russia (and therefore the Mongols), at least since the 18th century.
As for the overabundance of the East, the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs are quite well known for a particular liking for gold and things made of it. I mean, even toilet seats etc.
This was great! Has anyone around this channel read 'Journey to the West' from the 16th century China? I've read the simpler translation by Arthur Waley, ''Monkey'. When Richard mentioned Bar Sauma I had to comment. I'd enjoy talking to someone about the Symbolism and Universal History there.
Jerusalem is the center. Yes. Acts 1:8 (And it's NOT, "Well, OUR Jerusalem is Dallas." As if it's an historical accident, or Jerusalem is not, you know, the biblical city of God from Genesis (Salem) to Revelation (New Jerusalem).)
Thank you, I am reading Tom Holland's 'Dominion' and his Eastern connection to astronomy, attributes the Jesuits with bridging the gap with Rome. Galileo's telescope etc. Does that sound right to you guys?
This is so interesting! I’ve been an Easterner living in the the West my whole life and have long struggled with these questions of East and West. This idea of the East as a “source of light” but which is “unable to build its own city” is a really really interesting and I think accurate idea. As an Easterner and an Indian of Hindu background, I remember feeling that there was a lot of wisdom in our religion and way of life, but that the West was more organised, reliable and somehow more “civilised”. Economic development, modern ideas, science, technology, all of these things have been imported into the East from the West, and this is why so many Easterners choose to come study and live in the West. What I think people in both the East and the West fail to realise is that it’s not just technology that’s been imported, it’s a set of values, which includes: fairness, equality, reliability, legal systems, property rights etc. Which in my view ultimately trace back to Christianity . Modern India (for example) would not be what it is today without these things, yet, they are oblivious to it.
I am really looking forward to the next video in this series.
"it’s not just technology that’s been imported, it’s a set of values, which includes: fairness, equality, reliability, legal systems, property rights etc. Which in my view ultimately trace back to Christianity." Very well said. Yes, brother, I agree with you as a Far Easterner living in the West.
I agree, it's interesting hearing about that idea of the East as a “source of light” but which is “unable to build its own city”. As they talked about the positive as true enlightenment and the negative of decadence, it mirrors the positive and negative of the 'west' as organised and rational yet brutal and base.
It's almost a distinction of spirit and body, that has rhymed almost everywhere I've heard of (Scottish/English, English/French, Western Rome/Eastern Rome, Frankish/Greek, Rome/Persia; the only outlier I can think of is the Mongols, but they're always an exception)
This is a relevant discussion: ruclips.net/video/QvESPeFWLHw/видео.html
This is correct. I am descended from around 50 Roman families and about a similar number of Jews from Ancient Rome that settled in and around Cochin, in Kerala, India. The Roman families encountered Apostle Thomas. Apostle Thomas was simply following established Roman routes. It is believed that the direct encounter was significant, conversion in thought began. However, only after Rome officially changed towards Christianity, was it formalised as such in our ancestral family also. So many families claimed to have the right version to this day. There are Marthomites, Jacobites, Orthodox, Syrian, etc Some succumbed to the Pope’s armies many centuries later to re-align with Rome, some escaped to the jungles for centuries retaining older customs and ways. The Jews who look the same as the Christian families in external appearance remained “separate” and went to Israel in 1930 as that nation cohered. The Dutch were surprised to find such a wealthy settlement of ancient Roman sellers who were ancient Christians and tried to marry into our families to get access to vast lands and trading contacts. Later Portuguese tried the same. To this day most of the cash crops like coffee, tea, and vast tracts of lands are with a closely knit group of related families , descendants of this ancient group. Without doubt, it is one of the oldest, continuous, unbroken line of Christians in the world.
The East is not only India, but China too. And the Chinese had advanced civilizations far earlier and greater than Europe did for a very long time, so I'm not sure about this idea of the East "being a source of light but unable to build it's own city"
The St Thomas Christians of India are still very much around and very worth checking out for anyone interested in the history of Christianity. It’s so interesting to note that Christianity in India predates the Roman Catholic Church.
Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ, so you are wrong on this one.
@@filipradosa6062 Jesus never went to Rome.
The apostle, Thomas, went to India and the apostle Peter, to Rome. Whenever there is a name change in scripture it is significant of a new and important role God has for that person. Jesus changed Simon to Peter (meaning rock). Jesus chose Peter to be the leader of his band of twelve. The rest is history. I believe both Thomas and Peter were martyred for the Faith.
@@filipradosa6062 Catholic Church was founded by St Peter.
@@filipradosa6062
It took a little while after Jesus' crucifixion for Rome to get on board...
As an Indian, am so pumped about this discussion
I’m Indian too! 👍
What did you think about it?
@@CoranceLChandler I thought it was pretty interesting (although I’m not sure most Indians / Asians would agree!). The notion of the East as a “source of light” but which “cannot build its own city” without help (from the West) actually sounds about right to me. India (and the rest of East Asia) is a land of great wisdom, but which struggled to develop its own technology, systems etc until these things were introduced by the West.
@@shivabreathes that is a fascinating and rather humble take. Why do you think this is? And do you know of any Eastern philosophers or psychologists who deal with symbology from their perspective?
Fascinating big picture history. Also, awesome duo.
I anticipated those objections. ("Eurocentric!" "Whatabout Australia!") But this is so much better than my best answer. ("Less than 15% of the world's population lives in the Southern Hemisphere." Plus: It's mostly ocean.) I'm still so slow, learning to think in the symbolic frame.
This is such a great series. why does Richard not have anything more in line with this. I REALLY think you guys need to work on an actual series like this that starts from the "beginning" and works through history in this light, rather than jumping around from topic to topic. This story is crucial. It's really the only story their is. All others are nested inside it. Great work guys. Jonathan, I'm sorry for all the things I said, lol. I'm working on it. =P
So much good stuff in this and can't wait for the next one. Fourth son of Noah, Greek gods and Japheth, East the source of spiritual, West the embodied, Christianity from France to China, and my favorite any story about St Thomas. What's not to love!!!
Mr. Pageau is by far one of my favorite people to listen to. Thanks for the sharing y’all’s knowledge and research
Thank you!!! I depart for Japan in just a few days! Since the pandemic I have been separated from my girlfriend for 2.5 years of lockdowns and now that things are opening up she is briefly coming here tmrw and then in 14 days I am finally leaving to go back and live in Japan for a while. Japan and my girlfriend’s curiosity with Christianity is what pointed me back to my Christian heritage and ultimately to walking into an Orthodox Church. I am not yet in the nave of The Church, but I intend on attending Churches in Japan I’ve found and maintaining communication with my priest back home. It is very good to see the universal history series reaching the Far East and so well timed! I want only to submit in the proper way and hopefully this will enable me to understand how to do it properly within the context of The story. I have always thought of the Far East as opposing the Far West where I grew up, I.e. if they say “Japan is a land where if the nail stands up it will be hammered down” America is a land where the standing nail is rewarded and used to hang hats, the bent nail is artistic and the rusty nail is as they say “aesthetic”. This is so well timed and I have so much to say about it, but mostly thank you!!! God bless! Christ is risen!
That’s awesome! Hope you’re able to taste the legacy of St Nicolas of Japan while you’re there!
Good luck. Japan is a really, really interesting place, on multiple levels. I lived there for 4 years when I was in my early 20s. It is the opposite of America in so many ways. It takes a while to see it as they are very good at maintaining a facade of modernity, technology etc. But under the surface they are very much still living by the values of a 2000 year old agrarian, Buddhist society. It is a very unique place. You will love it.
By the way, if you haven’t seen it do check out the movie “Silence” by Martin Scorsese. About Christian missionaries in Japan in the 18th century who are persecuted by the Japanese authorities.
I’m 11 minutes in, and I already can’t wait for more episodes. Lately, I’ve wanted to really visualize and imagine early Christian Roman/Eastern Roman society. As a Christian Persian, and just as a person, I really find these cultural overlaps fascinating. Thank you so much for making this happen. Blessings 🙏
Glad we’re back to universal history relating to a geographical location; the last several videos were good but I really love the ones where the topic is the distant past and focused on a specific region of the world. The Ethiopia series was awesome. Keep em coming guys, love this series.
I second that.
10 minutes in and Richard is already answering the whole list of questions I've had for this series so far :) Nice.
It's always a treat when you bring on Richard for these Episodes Jonathan, thank you, and thanks to Richard. He always adds insights to these talks.
As an Australian that lives on the edge of Australia, that little segment about us felt correct.
There is so much mystery in China. It's probably the oldest continuous civilisation. Before watching, the symbolism of the far East seems to me related to the rising Sun. 'The East' to an enlightened modern mind is a relative place, without any true location. So there is no reason people in the far East should see themselves as closer to the Sun. Despite this, ancient Japanese saw their land ( "Nihon" ) as "the land of the rising sun". The fact that they adopted this Solar symbolism suggests the world truly has a shape.
Yes.
Here in Oregon our National Guard uses the symbol of the setting sun as our shoulder patch. The highway from Portland to the coast is called the Sunset Hwy after the 41st Infantry Sunset Division.
Bookends from Japan to the west coast of the US.
Land of the rising son because there’s no land east of them €_€
Heliocentricism
@@CrossandTaiji except there is if you go far enough
This is correct. I am descended from around 50 Roman families and about a similar number of Jews from Ancient Rome that settled in and around Cochin, in Kerala, India. The Roman families encountered Apostle Thomas. Apostle Thomas was simply following established Roman routes. It is believed that the direct encounter was significant, conversion in thought began. However, only after Rome officially changed towards Christianity, was it formalised as such in our ancestral family also. The reason this official change in Rome is remembered in our families is because there was already an established idea of what Christ-devotee and living in the way as “Christian”, the ritual of last supper etc was already established for 300 years among our families by time when Rome adopted Christianity. So many families claimed to have the right version to this day. Some have two fish like symbols in a circle, some have a triangle with a circle, and some had cross already. After Rome officially became Christian, the local King further extended support to our families to establish this new religion more. We already had extensive agreements. There are Marthomites, Jacobites, Orthodox, Syrian, etc Some succumbed to the Pope’s armies many centuries later to re-align with Rome, some escaped to the jungles for centuries retaining older customs and ways. The Jews who look the same as the Christian families in external appearance remained “separate” and went to Israel in 1930 as that nation cohered. The Dutch were surprised to find such a wealthy settlement of ancient Roman sellers who were ancient Christians and tried to marry into our families to get access to vast lands and trading contacts. Later Portuguese tried the same. To this day most of the cash crops like coffee, tea, and vast tracts of lands are with a closely knit group of related families , descendants of this ancient group. Without doubt, it is one of the oldest, continuous, unbroken line of Christians in the world.
That Acts of Thomas at 40:16 is a perversion of religion. Not that charity isn't good for the community. And there is some overlap between charity and spirituality, but they are *not* the same thing. That king in the story was *not* saved by Thomas - he was materialistic before and he was materialistic afterwards - it's just now 'he has a palace in the afterlife'.
Real spiritual growth means becoming the true master of one's possessions to the point where the possessions can easily be discarded. The problem for the king is the fact his desire for a palace makes him a slave to that palace which is ultimately a transient object. The king shouldn't have any emotional need for a palace. Under typical circumstances a king should live in one to further his goal of being the leader of his people, but an ideal king should be willing to live in a tent should it be convenient for the situation the nation faces. The palace should be a tool to further a spiritual goal.
The giving of those possessions to the poor as often recommended by religions is a *side effect* . The point is a person should have no attachment to objects.
This "spirituality = charity" is the exact type of framework Pope Francis operates on, and the exact reason many Catholics have a problem with him. Because if charity is all that matters, why stick up for doctrine? Well without doctrine, and with a drive for charity - that is a recipe towards institutions becoming the slave of the envy of the masses - which is that sirens song of socialism.
So I'm glad the Acts of Thomas is restricted to apocrypha.
Good points! On the other hand, is it not also possible that consistently practicing charity could itself have the effect of loosening one's attachments to possessions? Sort of a "fake it til you make it" approach?
It's a funny story, but it does impugn Thomas somewhat It's definitely fraud, which is lying, which is bad. And you're right, someone else can't make your moral decisions for you. I wonder what the Gnostics thought about theft, since it's merely material?
@@SonOfThineHandmaidIt does, but not if somebody does it for you without you knowing. The knowing is important.
Amazing episode. I never learned so much in such a short time. Thank you!
I can see the excess of light in eastern religions for they see themselves as God or same substance of him, while as you go west you start seeing atheism. The fact that sun rises in the east goes very well with the hinduistic teachings.
For all the Lewis fans out there, when the "ants as big as dogs," were mentioned I thought of the space trilogy and the pfifltriggi
Mysticism is more properly preserved in the East. The mind body connection concept has never been lost and, more importantly, practical methods for acting with this relationship are sophisticated and well understood. We are rediscovering what they mastered 1000 years ago. This is not my conjecture it is my experience living in Eastern monasteries
Eastern Christian monasteries?
The Eastern Orthodox understood this as well and have a serious mysticism, it is that they don't accept all religious experiences and practices. It's a false representation to advocate for a universalism and mysticism without stricter discernment outside our tradition.
Grace and Truth
Came through Him
Cool exploration. Really, really appreciated Jonathan's acknowledgement that e.g. aboriginals have their own real vision of the world map, so to speak. I think this project is fine if understood as as an attempt to view the world from a medieval lens, which of course like post moderns trying to view the world from nowhere or from a different indigenous culture can never be fully realized because we don't live in that world, just as you can never go back to another era.
Finally! I’ve been wondering how far eastern and Native Americans fall into universal history. They seem so far removed from everything.
All things
Came into
Being
😊❤️🦅
Through
Him
These are just the best videos.
Necessary
Sharing
At this point 👉☝️
In time
Well done
👍
Never stop the universal history!
Could you please elaborate distinction between India and China as we am from in between land we are usually left out between these two gaints. Yours work could really helpful for linking our side of world to that of the centre - Jerusalem.
For some reason I always thought there was something off in my friends obsession over anime. Guess I now know why I thought it was fishy😂
I wanna hear about Christianity in Japan
It’s oddly prevalent in anime, thematically and symbolically.
Saint Nikolai of Japan!
@@LD-2401 I haven't seen every anime, but from the ones I did, I haven't seen a single church with a cross on it. What I would say IS very prevalent, is a medieval european city type structure.
@Astral Belt and Korea!
@@AugustasKunc Kids on the Slope is one to check out
Great and fascinating discussion, as usual. I would like to point out the Eastward journey of the Western Russian missionaries (e.g., St Herman) to Alaska, where they protected the indigenous Aleuts, Yupik, and other peoples from the depredations if the Russian fur traders. Their understanding and gentleness with these peoples les to the acceptance and local fervency if Orthodox Christianity, which still remains, despite the loss of citizenship when the US took over, the Bolshevik revolution, which cut off their priests and church from the mother diocese, and western church missionaries, especially Presbyterians, who tried and largely succeeded in wiping out their culture.
So very AWESOME guys!
Very easy to follow...smooth...interesting educational story telling.
A lil bit of everything! I enjoyed the way that you both presented it as a timeliness.
Alot of times I can't follow or understand either of you...and then you both together🤣
But hear my comment....that I really enjoy you ...and try to figure out your stuff
While listening, the question presented itself: do scientists and the spirit of secular together try to write a universal cosmological “history” where man is alone in the universe?
Interesting enough, when you view the world map with Jerusalem at the center, it also makes sense why God would incarnate and reveal Himself to mankind in the form of a human being exactly in that geographical location. The land of Canaan was (and still is to a large extent) the crossroads of all great ancient civilizations and cultures. It makes perfect sense that the Almighty would send His Son exactly there. It would also explain why Canaan is the Promised Land and why the Israelites were sent there in the first place - to protect it and prepare it for the coming of God's Son.
It also explains why he had them create the ark of the covenant. To give that nation a real/physical reason to continue to be in that geographical location.
@@JohnSmith-wo2fzIt does make sense of all the trouble God went through to get them in that land. Also, the fact that Christ came during the reign of the first Roman emperor is the same idea, just in time vs. space
Richard, do you have any interest in video games? Elden Ring seems to be extremely rich in references to mythology and Christian symbolism, and it would be very interesting to see what you might find to comment on.
In particular, what triggered some recognition in this discussion was the strange reference to giant ants. In Elden Ring, there is an eternal cursed city that exists underground. There are giant ants alongside some clearly eastern-coded warriors (some of whom ride the ants like mounts) who wear white flowing clothing with their armor and use whip-swords (evocative of a strange flexible sword that actually existed in India). In this case, the giant ants might just come from it being an underground world, but it's just funny that this medieval-style world would also have the eastern/India-style area associated with giant ants...
Been reading the book of changes(basically the root foundation of all of Chinese philosophy and thought once they first became a civilization) and finding a lot of similarities with Mathew’s book, wondering if he drew on it at all….(the circle, square symbols in his book are a lot like the yin Yang ☯️ symbol and it’s symbolism…. So really looking forward to this episode
You would probably love the book "Christ the Eternal Tao" by Hieromonk Damascene.
@@MediaDream93 I actually happen to have this book but haven't read it yet haha
I would love to hear you guys discuss the American continents/Native American cultures from this perspective!
Pretty surprised you made no connection between the naked philosophers and Diogenes.
And what for the people living in South America? 🤨 when is our turn?
Rogelio - yes! Always neglected (maybe to their benefit though)
Except for one Viking Ship, no Ancient person who lived in Eurasia or Africa knew of the existence of the American continent until Columbus
I couldn't help but see the similarity between Jonathan and Matthieu... What does Matt believe btw? Since he's not Orthodox I'm curious about that, and how your relationship is affected by that.
I recently heard Jonathan say that Matthieu is more into the Jewish/Rabbinical teaching.
@@PoesieUndGlaube That's so weird, considering all the insight that that man has. One would think he would be all over Orthodoxy. I guess the fact that he can explain all those concepts to a modern mind is his own undoing.
he is a student of Kabbalah and Talmud, Jonathon never hid that.. that is where many of the insights in his book come from..
@@PoesieUndGlaube yeah, I heard that too, but did he convert? My question was more about his religion, not things that may be his intellectual leanings. Reading Jewish or Rabbinical teaching does not make him a Jew. I'm wondering if he converted, if he was a perennialist, or what tradition or practice he is following, since I recall seeing Matt dressed in black, but I couldn't tell if it was a priest's robe or what.
The decadence of the east and the asceticism of the east reminds me very much of Williams' Way of Affirmation and Way of Negation.
The way I read the Scripture, wrt Thomas is that he was one of twins, and he was called Didemus, because male, identical twins are indistinguishable. It's easier to call them Twin than it is to figure out which one you're talking to. Instead of having to ask, are you Thomas, or are you (name of other twin)? You just call him Twin, especially if it's just as likely to be one of them as the other. I have Twin cousins. They are female, and once they were grown, we could usually tell them apart, but when they were children, even their own mother dispensed with names. They were just, "The Twins, Y'all Twins," or "One of the Twins". My aunt would address them saying, "Go get your Twin." When asked which one they were, they were as likely to answer with their twins name as their own, and occasionally, they would answer at the same time with the same name, revealing their game by mistake. 😊 Certainly Jesus knew which one was his disciple, which might have been what convinced doubting Thomas to follow Him.
7:21 that's presupposition behind all universal history talks
Thanks
Jonathan if you get a moment I think you’d find a lot of material in this interview about Russia ruclips.net/video/OSiFaDlIeO0/видео.html with Alexandr Dugan very useful. The very last few minutes specifically go into his mystical ideas of Russia and if you haven’t researched him. His book Putin vs. Putin will likely have incredible gems in it for you
The strength
Of
Identity
The voyage of Rabban Bar Sauma. Is there some matieral/books on this story? I've only found one source "The travels of Bar Sauma In Asia and Europe" But there is little details in that material. Would be thankful if anyone had any tips.
Episode 2 pleasee!
The answer my friend
....
As a big fan of Bob Marley and the message of One Love, and Rastafari he managed to spread to the 4 corners of the earth through reggae music and having noticing your interest in Ethiopia I wonder if you would be interested in making a video looking into Bob Marley and the Rastafari religion and why they became so popular worldwide? Apparently he believed Emporer Haile Selassie was the incarnation of the second coming of Christ.
Yes, Mr Marley became an Ethiopian Orthodox later in life. God bless him.☦️
Can confirm, I live in Australia AND am an insane hybrid animal. That's Queensland for ya!
The Yowie has internet access?
At least I know our bunyip can't ... until they invent waterproof computers
@@j.g.4942 It's hard typing with hooves but I manage ;)
@@j.g.4942 Yes.
symbolism for the win(nie the pooh)
Symbolism of Chinese origin is positively infectious! It’s viral enough to go global!
J
What about South America?
richard 'and things like this' rohlin
Absolutely fascinating talk! Thanks so much Jonathan and Richard. How do you spell the 4th son of Noah? Jonatos? I tried to google about him but came up blank
Upside down Australian here ☺️
In Him
Is life
This life
🤔
Is the light
Of man
so weird that people say this stuff doesn't apply in Japan... I actually study Japanese mythology and find that it's really fascinating how similar in theme it is to Christianity. I honestly think that the Japanese and I have a lot more in common than japanese people would have with modernity
Just to add to this discussion,
There are a number of myths, and mythological elements, in Japanese mythology which are comparable to those in other traditions.
One I find interesting is that in the Kojiki (one of the two oldest books written describing Japanese religion and cultural history, as it was created over 1400 years ago), at the beginning of time there are three gods who arise uncreated, and with no sex characteristics, unlike other gods who are born or created and can be identified as male or female. These three are known as the three gods of creation and indeed under some shinto traditions they are identified as being the source of all things in the world, particularly Ame-no-minaka-nushi-no-kami, whose name means something akin to Lord at the center of heaven.
In another myth, when Ookuninishi, another important god dies, it is one of these three who ressurect him, and it is only them who have this power over life and death.
It is very fascinating that this trinity of gods is 1) the first to arise, 2) not tied to a specific bodily form or sex as others are 3) are a trinity.
The story of creation, wherein the primordial choas splits into light elements (heaven) and heavy elements (earth) is rather interesting as well, and at first there is only a great expanse of water.
These themes are common to most religious traditions, and are present in Christianity.
One more interesting point of note is the correspondence between the world elohim in Hebrew and kami in Japanese, wherein elohim, though often referring to God, can also refer to created divine beings (the divine council), or other denizens of the spiritual realm. Japanese kami is similar, though translate as god in English I find the Hebrew elohim to be a closer fit as to what it means.
So few Japanese are aware of these things as secularism and westernization increasingly erode the traditions here though, and it is quite sad as having conversations (and telling people about Christ) would be much easier if they were aware of these parallels and the symbolism behind them.
PS. here a bonus connection, the mythological theme of "storm god versus water dragon" is present in Japan with the Tale of Susanoo versus Yamata no Orochi. This is found in the Old Testament when God slays the choas serpent and creates the world, and the fact that it is found around the world is something to take note of.
@@devinh4725 do you have a good book or site recommendation about this? So cool and fascinating!
@@Joraelfa nothing in particular really, you can read the Kojiki for free online with multiple different translations. As it's the source for a lot of these myths it's a must read for anyone interested, but I will say it's often hard to get the deeper meaning without a lot of cultural background in ancient Japan, or without a fair deal of knowledge concerning general mythological and symbolic trends throughout world history. That being said, I highly recommend reading it.
Otherwise, doing research in comparative mythology (online or from a book, either is fine although I'd recommend using multiple sources of course) will help introduce some themes to keep an eye out for. Things like the primordial battle against chaos, the existence of a Supreme God, the fight between the storm god and the water serpent, etc...
Once you have an idea of those, read the Kojiki, reread the old testament, read any kind of traditional folklore or religious myths (ancient Greek, Native American, Australian Aboriginal, etc...) and look for the themes there.
You'll find that many cultures have/had the idea of a Supreme God, different from the others and more powerful (and this is not very much talked about either, outside of some parts of the Christian sphere I guess). Other things line up in curious ways, flood myths, the division of the world into earth, underworld, and heaven, or the existence of a sort of paradise on earth type garden / island/ realm. Gods always come down on mountains, and sure enough even the garden of eden is called the mountain of God in the old testament, and God also gave the revelation to Moses on a mountain.
Of course where you want to take this depends on your personal beliefs, but from a Christian view at least it provides a lot of evidence that people did once know God, that his attributes are still knowable, and that the themes of Christianity are in common with many cultures around the world, and not a unique or foreign religion only suited to Europe.
@@devinh4725 thanks for your in reply! I'll give it a look. I am a newly converted Orthodox Christian myself (from "new-age"-atheism) and massively uneducated in these regards. So always good to know some places where to start!
I have stumbled upon little bits and pieces of ancient stories with clear signs of Christianity glittering through but haven't ever managed to find good material to dig deeper. Probably I was interested in the new age spirituality because of the deep meaning of the culture of the far east and its myths but not knowing what it really meant.
The Orthodox Church is the only church where this can be found but even deeper and more spectacular IMO. Thanks again :)
@@Joraelfa
No worries, I love to talk about this stuff but rarely get the chance.
I'm not Orthodox but I do have a lot of interest in the Orthodox church, it seems to have kept the most "sacred mysteries" approach to things which I much prefer over some other ways of interpreting theology.
Anyways good luck with your research, I know you will find it as fascinating as I did!
I'm Scandinavian, and I've never heard of the Hunns as relating to our history. The threat has always primarily been Russia (and therefore the Mongols), at least since the 18th century.
With God
Edisher is common man's name here in Georgia (country). Would love to hear you talk about Georgia.
John
Began to write ✍️
About
91
He was
In the beginning
Is South America upside down?
He was
With the Father
Alpha
Omega
All in
Between
At 36:53 who made a great episode on curses?
The Lord of Spirits podcast- Ancient Faith Radio
Central
Centralia
He is
🦅
18:30 how about symbolism on New Moon.😶
The conclusion
Is a friend
With
*pauses* Cave of Treasures?
He joins
Heavens
And earth 🌎
Go Johnathan
Intrinsic
Flowing
Is important
When the north
Comes
Knowledge
Will not
As for the overabundance of the East, the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs are quite well known for a particular liking for gold and things made of it. I mean, even toilet seats etc.
This was great! Has anyone around this channel read 'Journey to the West' from the 16th century China? I've read the simpler translation by Arthur Waley, ''Monkey'. When Richard mentioned Bar Sauma I had to comment. I'd enjoy talking to someone about the Symbolism and Universal History there.
Centrality
The 🤔
Focus of
🤔
Shout out to the Aussies oi oi oi
Australia is Dream Time land
Being still
To know
Before
Genesis
Revelation
Are connected
Exist
Existing
Jerusalem is the center. Yes. Acts 1:8
(And it's NOT, "Well, OUR Jerusalem is Dallas." As if it's an historical accident, or Jerusalem is not, you know, the biblical city of God from Genesis (Salem) to Revelation (New Jerusalem).)
What?
To be
Or not to be
🤔
To
The universe I
Al
Where is he
Simon
A
Or
O
🤔
Who else
Ancient China is True Ex -Nihilo
True Power and Supreme
Apart from Him
Nothing
🤔Came
Into
🤔
Being
saying australia walks upside-down assumes it is real ha
MTN
#short introduction for a topic
Texas Musicians Against Multiple Sclerosis@ is in West T.!
MWM@
666 The great vowel change!
MWM@
I love this series, its so epic, I hope some day you could do one video about France
Greetings from Costa Rica 👋
11
An Irish Penal Colony! The Anglo Saxon myth!
Thank you, I am reading Tom Holland's 'Dominion' and his Eastern connection to astronomy, attributes the Jesuits with bridging the gap with Rome. Galileo's telescope etc. Does that sound right to you guys?
❤️😊🦅🦁🕊️✍️👌
Grrr, Richard, how many times will you force me to say 'oh yeah' to myself?
Oooooooo!!!!