@@tigranohanyan3321 That is bad logic. They aren't in production yet, they have only been invented at the university. When they go into production, Lamborghini will get them first for an expensive sports/racing car. Later on, as production increases, they will go into the more ordinary cars from the same group. If all goes well.
We will see at least 3 new types of batteries per year for the next decade and it's going to blow your mind. In a few years I'll be laughing about my early 20s Tesla vehicles like I do the specs of 1990s PCs compared to modern ones.
I can't imagine MIT would give Lamborghini an exclusive licence on such advanced technology. Maybe one year lead on others or similar, but if these batteries are real no way will this remain exclusive.
Exclusive for how long? It'd obviously never be forever. It could easily take 3-5 years to get to a battery pack, and 3-5 years to ramp up large scale mass production. In the meantime making bespoke low volume battery packs could be really expensive, and so putting them in some kind of super exclusive and expensive vehicle makes sense. That assumes they actually can make a whole battery pack at all. We'll have to see.
Exactly what I was thinking American made (?) and then sold to other country must be a mistake specially with the Electric Good struggling with the production of the new cells
I agree; unlikely to be an exclusive license. In the 19th century many of the early electric motor patents were licensed by their inventors to both Westinghouse and GE (Edison).
On the other hand, Tesla started with the Roadster. Not quite the same, but it appears to be a way in. You start with a reputation for good, which can be a better starting point than a reputation for cheap.
Even if these batteries take a couple of years to become commercialized, what’s exciting to me is that the research keeps moving forward. Especially now with AI making research progress much faster, I think that by the end of the decade we will have batteries that make any type oF combustion powertrain replaceable. Do you want 500 miles of towing in your pickup? No problem. Do you want to replace diesels in heavy machinery? Here you go. Shipping, aviation.. I think the future looks electric!
765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. To get 500 miles of towing with a pickup, you are going to need something like CATL's condensed battery with 500 Wh/kg, but it will probably be another decade before those types of batteries are cheap enough for EVs. They will be limited to airplanes and expensive cellphones in the near future.
@@amosbatto3051care to explain? I am not even sure why a distinction was made with cathode energy density. As far as I know the anode is the positive side and the cathode is the negative side (energy will go from negative to positive). But somehow more than half of 765 was lost somewhere? Is that to say that the CATL possibly has a cathode with over 1000Wh/kg? I think the 765 is just the energy density period. It's just a circuit. Since the cathode is the side that supplies the energy that flows to the anode
@@Insight5504 , Just publishing the cathode energy density was the decision of the TAQ researchers. I imagine that they only published the cathode energy density because that is the only part that they changed. They are using a normal electrolyte and a normal anode, so their paper only focuses on the TAQ cathode. The anode is usually heavier than the cathode. The best NCM batteries have a cathode energy density of 750 Wh/kg and a cell energy density of 300 Wh/kg. Based on that proportion, I calculated 306 Wh/kg would be the cell energy density of a TAQ battery. We don't know much about CATL's "condensed battery" except that it has a polymer gel-like electrolyte, new anode materials and an “ultra-high density cathode material”, so maybe it has 1000 Wh/kg in the cathode, but CATL is pretty tight lipped about it. It sounds different from most of the other solid state and semi-solid state batteries, which have a normal NMC cathode, a solid electrolyte (usually ceramic or polymer) and a lithium metal or silicon anode, which is much thinner and lighter than the traditional graphite anode.
Sorry, but as an MIT alumnus I object strenuously to the relentless PR campaign of their public relations office which touts breakthroughs every week that never actually get to production because they are claiming some radical increase in density, but when you read the fine print it is only for a small part of the system, and the durability of the cell has not been proven in practice outside the lab. Don't believe almost any PR release you see. When Toyota or VW or BYD puts it in their mainline products, then you know it is real. Until then, be skeptical. I have no doubt that eventually some battery breakthrough will happen, but so many battery startups are now in year 8 and still no product outside the lab... It isn't easy to make a new chemistry that holds up in real life, with temperature ranges, etc.
Indeed. We've seen so many claims such as this come and go and disappear into the ether never to be heard from again. Color me skeptical, and cynical too through having heard "wolf" too many times before.
After reading the research paper, it looks credible to me, but it is an early prototype in a lab. It probably will take a minimum of 5 years to reach mass production, if no major problems are found with the tech that prevent commercialization, but I do think Sam Evans should be covering it. He just needs to actually research it. 765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so we can guesstimate 306 Wh/kg at the cell level, which is only slightly better than today's best NMC batteries with 300 Wh/kg. By the time the TAQ batteries reach mass production, I expect that LFP will probably be at 300 Wh/kg and support 12C charging, so the real advantage of these batteries will be the lower cost, since they don't contain metals in the cathode.
Unless Lambo has a worldwide *exclusive* license, I'd expect MIT to license it out more widely and make gobs more money. Lambo may have a one year exclusive license. Or five years "in vehicles sold for more than $150,000." Or structured in whatever way Lambo and MIT were both happy.
The articles you linked talk about a Harvard research group working on solid state batteries which would in theory have a much higher energy density but no actual working batteries with higher densities. Any thing I found talking about this MIT research only pointed to it being a cost saving measure to use organic (carbon based) materials instead of cobalt and said the energy density was comparable.
If these really are 10C batteries, they’d make good batteries for drones, E-bikes, scooters and boards, especially at the high energy to weight ratio, for that matter, sounds like a great battery for EV aircraft.
765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. For aviation, you are going to need something like CATL's condensed battery with 500 Wh/kg, which are very expensive and probably have short cycle life.
Amazing! Let's hope Tesla and other car companies pick up on this new technology. Technologies like this should be made freely available to all car manufacturers to hasten the transition away from fossil fuel.
With that kind of power capacity and output, these batteries could be ideal for the super large construction and mining vehicles. Super heavy duty machine equipment. Thanks Sam. 😎
haha Well ypu just have to find mines on top of mountains. But then why would you even need the truck. What is wrong withyou peopls brains? And no you will not produce excess energyeven in your wierd world you would eventuallyhave to charge.@FrugalFamilyLiving
This is awesome news! I pray that we will see this commercialized quickly. That being said, MIT have been known in the past to invent novel battery technologies that were amazing in the lab. None of them have actually made it into mass production that I can recall. But this time it could be different because I think battery research and innovation across the world is approaching a critical mass. Something really big is about to explode onto the market. Maybe this one is it.
Another miracle battery just around the corner that gives a gazillion miles of range and recharges to 300% in two seconds, never to be heard of again...
Sam, thank you for all you do. I have learned so much from you over the past couple of years. You are very good at presenting new technology and good information that I was unaware of from any other channel. And it is always super-interesting! All good wishes.
Thank for your content Sam! I would love to see you making a video about upgrading an existing battery of your ev and what future is holding for that segment.
Likely has lots of silicon and exotic carbon allotropes. It will be interesting to see if they have really cracked the longevity, safety and swelling problems. Limited roll out maybe a way to find out.
Hi. I would be interested to know who is quoting an energy density. All Lamborgini have licensed is a cathode material to replace cobalt. This bio material will support a lot of electrons, is stable and can work with fast charging, but it is not yet a battery. So let's look again in 2-3 years when a battery can reach commercial production.
This is an excellent program. It has great content and information. The Host is highly knowledgeable about battery and EV technology development. I learned a lot from this podcast.
They are suitable for aviation. 765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. Aviation is going to need something like CATL's condensed battery with 500 Wh/kg, which are very expensive and probably have short cycle life.
They are talking about "cathode energy density". That's not even cell level...the anode is usually pretty heavy, so my guess is we are talking a 250-350 wh/kg cell. Aslo, discharging a cell in 6 minutes not something new or astounding. Any LiPo battery in toy RC gadgets will happily do that, it's just 10C discharging. LiPos can discharge much faster than that, 20C or more.
@@aligenc659, the term "energy density" is very often used for just the cathode or the anode in scientific papers. I have checked the news about this Lambo licensed technology: they claim 50% energy densityimprovement over NMC cathodes only.
The only reason RC model batteries have that high discharge rate, is because they're small. there is a lot of exposed surface area compared to the volume of the cell. I don't know if you've noticed, but the new Tesla 4680 cylindrical cells don't charge as fast as the older but smaller 18650 cells. Mathematically, the the surface area of a cell goes up on the square of its size, but the volume goes up on the cube, making it more difficult for heat to escape the innermost part of the cell, which limits current density. Another advantage of RC batteries, is the "pouch" cells. A flat, thin cell has much more surface area, than a cylindrical cell. Blade cells, such as the GM "Ultium" Lithium Iron Phosphate cells have good thermal characteristics allowing higher current density. Like pouch cells, there's a lot of area, and, close proximity of the center of the cells to those outer surfaces.
@@vincentrobinette1507 RC pouch cells can be bigger than a 18650 in weight and size, and still discharge more than 20C...volume and structure is not all when discussing discharge rates. LiPo cells use a polymer gel for electrolyte, which is high conductive for ions. Discharging generates less heat, compared to other types of cells. The same happens for cylindrical formats, not all cells are created equal. You can buy 18650 cells which will happily discharge at 10C (~30A), it's pretty common. But no all of them will do...
Going from RnD in a lab to manufacture will take a very long time, I don't expect to see this battery technology arrive any time soon. Seems like a good advancement, though.
There's so many components to a good battery: 1. Affordable 2. Easy to manufacture 3. High energy density 4. Rapid charging speed 5. Fire resistant 6. Can release energy rapidly 7. Doesn't use problematic metals like cobalt. It's a tall order for researchers and engineers to get right.
There's always a "but" with any break through. If they can be produced quickly, reliably and cost effectively AND last longer than any current technology, then it's a home run. Tesla must monitor all battery developments for this kind of result...
EV technology reporter who mixes power and energy after many years of reporting on the same topic. That's like a culinar that can't tell salt from sugar.
What I really want is all of these new batteries/packs made to be reverse compatible with most if not all EV's out now. I would easily pay to double if not triple the range of my Mach E if a replacement pack made from these new cells, once the present pack "wears" out (70% of original range). THIS is what is really needed. I know the OEM's would have to made the the controllers compatible or make replacement ones too but it should be done ASAP.
When I started using semiconductors the cry was "You can have the best, and the cheapest and now. Choose which 2 from 3" Lamborghinis are not cheap so that settles that choice - 1 from 3 IMNSHO.
765 Wh (in the title), 765 W/kg (in the video). Please EV, surely the units of measure are Wh/kg. And what kg are we talking about. Is this Wh/kg of cathode material, Wh/kg of battery, WH/kg of battery module? All so different. I appreciate clear and unambiguous English expression - and I am sure others viewers do as well. Please help to diminish the confusion in this space.
It is 765 Wh/kg in the cathode according to the research paper, so I'm guesstimating that the cell will have 306 Wh/kg energy density, which is only slightly better than the best NMC811 cells that have 300 Wh/kg energy density.
Imagine, planing hydrofoil container ships delivering goods around the world ten times faster than current ICE cargo ships. The cost of goods would become up to 50% cheaper.
If we want to save the environment we live in we must spread the knowledge of building these kind of batteries like we did with the first electrical apparatus in the last century. Handle it as it is a country security issue we all have to profit from, not a small number of nerds. That time has really ended!
CATL is producing a Condensed Battery with a density of 500 Wh/kg. Over 2022 & 2023, CATL invested over $5B on R&D. I highly doubt MIT's battery is going to be provided to other vehicle manufacturers. It's very likely to be produced in very limited capacity, less than 100MWh per year
Since CATL "is producing" this battery, can you name even one product that contains this battery? Can you point us to where these cells/batteries are available for purchase?
A recent poll by Rasmussen Reports revealed that 65 percent of American adults are unlikely to consider purchasing an electric vehicle (EV) for their next car.
Acceleration of the car is limited by tire grip and not horsepower. There likely is not reason to go above a certain horsepower. There are some tricks: (1) spoilers, (2) a vacuum thing to suck the car to the ground, and of course (3) Tesla's SpaceX package.
Sam has after all this time and numerous commenter corrections, no real excuse for still confusing energy density with power density as per 2:50 - 2:54. Needless to say, by the time this latest 'breakthrough/game-changer' matures, it will be overtaken with who knows how many other such 'breakthroughs'. Anyone betting big on any current battery tech, in production or just lab announced, is a wild gambler who needs to exercise patience and restraint. Lots of it.
When I heard they use rubber in the cathode couldn’t help but think that would help with the 4680 dry process that has been so problematic. Also at a 10C cell would probably have to be a can type anyway. Even if it’s not the giant leap forward as it seems it could be a big big jump. Thanks Sam!
These TAQ batteries use aluminum foil current collectors in the cathode, copper foil current collectors in the anode and lithium in the electrolyte contains lithium, so they contain 3 metals, plus the steel can. Today's lithium ion anodes contain graphite with 10%-15% silicon added, so they already don't contain metal (except for the current collector).
That's good news seeing the w/kg feature cut in half. They need to push hard for even more improvements to that. Gadoline still has 17 times the energy density. A quart bottle of gasoline has about 9x the density, so there's still a long way to go with both weight and volume of fuel needed.
One note - Lamborghini has licensed the technology from MIT - they don't own it. They get it at a discount. That is how MIT labs work. I think this is very exciting and points to a potential exponentional leap in capability.
No standard tire will give you 1.3 seconds from 0 to 60. the limitation is tires not power, dragsters have massive custom tires that are not practical for street cars, and the Tesla Roadster can supposedly get to 1.2 seconds from 0 to 60 by using cold thrusters. Batteries with the power you are talking about will be used for aviation where cost of the batteries will be justified by fuel savings.
The paper states 765W/kg with subscript cathode..."higher than most cobalt cathodes". Thus, 765W/kg is not the specific energy of the entire battery, just the cathode. Nonetheless, fantastic performance for a cobalt free cathode.
I wonder if the announced power density is somehow related to the fact that many years ago Lamborghini and MIT started a common research program on structural composite batteries...
Good to hear, but not unexpected- many buckets of money in the US and far abroad have been hammering away with this. It is a break the entire EV change landscape badly needed to sell well.
Sure, sports cars, but this kind of ultracapacitor technology, is also the key to unlocking aviation energy transition. That prospect is considerably more exciting imho.
Lamborghini can afford non commercial low volume production of the battery, for it complements their sales model. Weight, energy density and performance will enable Lamborghini to sit atop the performance podium.
They don't own the technology. As is usual, MIT has a tech licensing schema for patents developed under them. Lamborghini has licensed it, but they have a non-exclusive license. MIT is free to license it out to other companies.
The new Taycan that just broke race track record within 1 second from the Rimac Nevera, which is also owned by Porsche/Bugatti, is using this new battery and will be unveiled in March! This is the reason Porsche has cut back on EV production in the past couple of years. They are working mostly on variants that use their engines with super compact batteries with extreme density and extreme low weight, including test vehicles with Quantumscape solid state. No more range anxiety or charging issues. Add to this mass production of their synthetic fuel, and Porsche will annihilate Tesla in its tracks!
500kw charging speed and 765Wh energy density is good enough for electric aircraft, let alone hypercars! Easily 1000 horsepower per electric motor installed in each wheel... We are talking 4000 horsepower BEVs.... Madness.
765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. For aviation, you are going to need something like CATL's condensed battery with 500 Wh/kg, which are very expensive and probably have short cycle life. Elysian estimates that you can have 800km of flying range with 450 Wh/kg and 1000km of flying range with 550 Wh/kg.
When a company which has shown no enthusiasm for batteries, buys the best one, I have to worry that they'll just sequester it and deny the world this technology.
It all about power to weight ratio. How much of the battery power is used to drag the battery around and how much structural support is needed to deal with the weight of the battery.
Hello Sam, Such exciting news.... I just hope this technology finds its way to cars for the mass market. If all this is as it seems on face value the only thing that could be more exciting would be an ambient temperature super conductor? This is surely not out of the question? Thanks btw for your outstanding optimism, it helps many of us out here!
The next brand new Lamborghini model may well be a single-seater personal flying quadcopter, with this battery technology and super efficient radial motors.
No, they won't make a leap with this TAQ battery, because Sam Evans didn't understand that 765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. Given that this is early prototyping and it will take a minimum of 5 years to reach mass production, this battery won't be nearly as revolutionary by the time it makes it to market, since we will have LFP with the same energy density and same 10C charging in 5 years time, but they will have double the cycle life of the TAQ battery.
I wish I had a dollar for every breakthrough battery on RUclips. How many cycles before it breaks down? Rare metals or chemicals needed? Temperature range? Cost to manufacture? Thermal stability? Etc. Have there been independent tests?🐝🐝
All they have is any early prototype in a laboratory and one published research paper, so this is a long way from commercialization. 12% capacity loss after 1000 recharge cycles and 30% capacity loss after 2000 recharge cycles. It uses 90% TAQ + 10% rubber in the cathode with an aluminum or copper current collector, standard LC30 electrolyte and standard lithiated graphite in the anode with a copper current collector. Temperature range wasn't mentioned in the research paper. Researchers say that it should cost 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of NMC batteries because TAQ should be cheap to manufacture. There are no independent tests.
Not really, because 765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so we can guesstimate 306 Wh/kg at the cell level, which is only slightly better than today's best NMC batteries with 300 Wh/kg. It will probably be another 5 years before these TAQ batteries reach mass production, and by that time LFP will probably be at 300 Wh/kg and support 12C charging, so the real advantage of these batteries will be the lower cost, since they don't contain metals in the cathode.
All you need for that is battery cells on the underside of the trailer, as well as on the cab, to give it a range that the ICE lorry cannot compete with on any comparator.
My house is wired for about 50 Kwatts total. So a charger that takes the power of 10 fully loaded houses. 240 volts, at 2000 amps, for example. Or 1000 amps at 500 volts. Id be interested in the thickness of the charging cable, and the huge connector to handle 500 Kwatts.
@@tomlewitt : When I built my house, in Canada, I put in a 200 amp service. So 240 V x 200 A is about 50 Kwatt. The insulated service wires were about 12 mm diameter each, if I recall correctly. I'd still be interested in whatever a 500 Kwatt charger would use for a cable, and a connector, and if there would be a weight requirement to wrestle the cable.
@@drewthompson7457 Wow that's a serious installation. Great for decent home charging of EV's. Yes, these future 0.5 or 1 MW chargers will need incredible cables, for currents up to 1200A , at 800V working...Let's not even think about aircraft charging! ..15MW batteries, (small 90-passenger airliner) needing a 2-hour max turnaround!
Another Battery of the week. It would be a sad week without "This Changes Everything". Never to be heard from again. Not saying it's bogus, but we've been on this ride a long time.
765Wh/Kg makes this more than suitable for electric aviation. Outstanding reporting on this! Thank you.
fake news, 765 on the cathode level not cell level
Its fake. Why VW not using the same batteries for ID4 ? VW owns Lamborghini?
Accurate
Yes, Lamborghini is owned by the Volkswagen Group through its subsidiary Audi.
@@tigranohanyan3321 That is bad logic. They aren't in production yet, they have only been invented at the university. When they go into production, Lamborghini will get them first for an expensive sports/racing car. Later on, as production increases, they will go into the more ordinary cars from the same group. If all goes well.
I tuck news like this into the "don't get too excited but keep hoping" category. The path from lab to mass production is long and arduous.
We will see at least 3 new types of batteries per year for the next decade and it's going to blow your mind. In a few years I'll be laughing about my early 20s Tesla vehicles like I do the specs of 1990s PCs compared to modern ones.
I agree, and people will realize the best use for extreme batteries is not a thousand mile range but a 300 mile range with a much liter car.
Yep. And 10C charging.
Material science through supercomputer and AI is exponentially improving outcomes.
Material science through supercomputer and AI is exponentially improving outcomes.
@@SkyRiver1I’ll split the difference to 500 miles because I live in a place with subzero temperatures.
If it sounds too good to be true, it likely is…..would love to see the original MIT article
Well, this stuff sounds like right on target... Expected soon according to trends...
But insider told me that it may take another 20 years to develop it to the theoretical ideals . . . as not even a prototype could be made yet.
Various companies have been working on high capacity batteries like this for a while. It's right on time.
Various companies have been working on high capacity batteries like this for a while. It's right on time.
It can be achieved if you don't consider the cost
I can't imagine MIT would give Lamborghini an exclusive licence on such advanced technology. Maybe one year lead on others or similar, but if these batteries are real no way will this remain exclusive.
Exclusive for how long? It'd obviously never be forever. It could easily take 3-5 years to get to a battery pack, and 3-5 years to ramp up large scale mass production. In the meantime making bespoke low volume battery packs could be really expensive, and so putting them in some kind of super exclusive and expensive vehicle makes sense. That assumes they actually can make a whole battery pack at all. We'll have to see.
Exactly what I was thinking American made (?) and then sold to other country must be a mistake specially with the Electric Good struggling with the production of the new cells
I agree; unlikely to be an exclusive license. In the 19th century many of the early electric motor patents were licensed by their inventors to both Westinghouse and GE (Edison).
The owners of Lamborghini are building battery factories, so yes, this might be exactly what they have in mind. @@auspiciouslywild
Not American made. MIT has brains from all over the world.@@MsRs232
It would be bizarro if Lamborghini became a major volume player in EVs
On the other hand, Tesla started with the Roadster. Not quite the same, but it appears to be a way in. You start with a reputation for good, which can be a better starting point than a reputation for cheap.
I dare Lamb to make an afforablie-ish EV!
@@rp9674 Why not a Ferrari minivan ?
The original article is titled “A Layered Organic Cathode for High-Energy, Fast-Charging, and Long-Lasting Li-Ion Batteries” in ACS Central Science.
Charging at half a Megawatt, enough to power a small town. What could possibly go wrong?
The small town has a blackout?
At least you'd glow in the dark.
Supposedly we will have tens of millions of these on the road, how can that work?
Even if these batteries take a couple of years to become commercialized, what’s exciting to me is that the research keeps moving forward. Especially now with AI making research progress much faster, I think that by the end of the decade we will have batteries that make any type oF combustion powertrain replaceable. Do you want 500 miles of towing in your pickup? No problem. Do you want to replace diesels in heavy machinery? Here you go. Shipping, aviation.. I think the future looks electric!
765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. To get 500 miles of towing with a pickup, you are going to need something like CATL's condensed battery with 500 Wh/kg, but it will probably be another decade before those types of batteries are cheap enough for EVs. They will be limited to airplanes and expensive cellphones in the near future.
@@amosbatto3051care to explain? I am not even sure why a distinction was made with cathode energy density. As far as I know the anode is the positive side and the cathode is the negative side (energy will go from negative to positive). But somehow more than half of 765 was lost somewhere? Is that to say that the CATL possibly has a cathode with over 1000Wh/kg? I think the 765 is just the energy density period. It's just a circuit. Since the cathode is the side that supplies the energy that flows to the anode
@@Insight5504 , Just publishing the cathode energy density was the decision of the TAQ researchers. I imagine that they only published the cathode energy density because that is the only part that they changed. They are using a normal electrolyte and a normal anode, so their paper only focuses on the TAQ cathode. The anode is usually heavier than the cathode. The best NCM batteries have a cathode energy density of 750 Wh/kg and a cell energy density of 300 Wh/kg. Based on that proportion, I calculated 306 Wh/kg would be the cell energy density of a TAQ battery.
We don't know much about CATL's "condensed battery" except that it has a polymer gel-like electrolyte, new anode materials and an “ultra-high density cathode material”, so maybe it has 1000 Wh/kg in the cathode, but CATL is pretty tight lipped about it. It sounds different from most of the other solid state and semi-solid state batteries, which have a normal NMC cathode, a solid electrolyte (usually ceramic or polymer) and a lithium metal or silicon anode, which is much thinner and lighter than the traditional graphite anode.
Not going to happen.
“This battery sounds too good to be true” yes, I agree.
Sorry, but as an MIT alumnus I object strenuously to the relentless PR campaign of their public relations office which touts breakthroughs every week that never actually get to production because they are claiming some radical increase in density, but when you read the fine print it is only for a small part of the system, and the durability of the cell has not been proven in practice outside the lab.
Don't believe almost any PR release you see. When Toyota or VW or BYD puts it in their mainline products, then you know it is real. Until then, be skeptical.
I have no doubt that eventually some battery breakthrough will happen, but so many battery startups are now in year 8 and still no product outside the lab... It isn't easy to make a new chemistry that holds up in real life, with temperature ranges, etc.
Indeed. We've seen so many claims such as this come and go and disappear into the ether never to be heard from again.
Color me skeptical, and cynical too through having heard "wolf" too many times before.
@@ahavelandat this point many colleges and universities are govt sponsored reputation mining enterprises
Amen, Edward. Every idea is the best in the world until it's tested.
After reading the research paper, it looks credible to me, but it is an early prototype in a lab. It probably will take a minimum of 5 years to reach mass production, if no major problems are found with the tech that prevent commercialization, but I do think Sam Evans should be covering it. He just needs to actually research it. 765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so we can guesstimate 306 Wh/kg at the cell level, which is only slightly better than today's best NMC batteries with 300 Wh/kg. By the time the TAQ batteries reach mass production, I expect that LFP will probably be at 300 Wh/kg and support 12C charging, so the real advantage of these batteries will be the lower cost, since they don't contain metals in the cathode.
It’s like a new battery announcement every week! Exciting times.
Lambo licensing this should tell you how overpriced and limited volume this battery will be for a long time
Colbalt was replaced with an organic material. Like what Persian saffron?
@@cbar842I mean, could be, without more context. MIT study was published so the details can be found...
Sounds ideal for a motorcycle. The current ones are ugly brutes even with the best batteries. At last something to give the designers some leeway.
I already read the papers, nothing special
Unless Lambo has a worldwide *exclusive* license, I'd expect MIT to license it out more widely and make gobs more money. Lambo may have a one year exclusive license. Or five years "in vehicles sold for more than $150,000." Or structured in whatever way Lambo and MIT were both happy.
The articles you linked talk about a Harvard research group working on solid state batteries which would in theory have a much higher energy density but no actual working batteries with higher densities. Any thing I found talking about this MIT research only pointed to it being a cost saving measure to use organic (carbon based) materials instead of cobalt and said the energy density was comparable.
If these really are 10C batteries, they’d make good batteries for drones, E-bikes, scooters and boards, especially at the high energy to weight ratio, for that matter, sounds like a great battery for EV aircraft.
Paradigm shift.
Tank killing drones. Twice the warhead, or,twice the range.
765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. For aviation, you are going to need something like CATL's condensed battery with 500 Wh/kg, which are very expensive and probably have short cycle life.
I want to see proof in the form of being tested after sold to the market. I do expect innovations, while also cautious of marketing hype.
@@amosbatto3051 ah! silly me, thought that was the total energy to weight ratio, if only the cathode piece, you are right.
Amazing! Let's hope Tesla and other car companies pick up on this new technology. Technologies like this should be made freely available to all car manufacturers to hasten the transition away from fossil fuel.
Socialism, really? From america?
“ prototypes are easy, production at scale is hard. “Elon Musk.
With that kind of power capacity and output, these batteries could be ideal for the super large construction and mining vehicles. Super heavy duty machine equipment. Thanks Sam. 😎
Everything, anywhere. Game-changing.
haha Well ypu just have to find mines on top of mountains. But then why would you even need the truck. What is wrong withyou peopls brains? And no you will not produce excess energyeven in your wierd world you would eventuallyhave to charge.@FrugalFamilyLiving
@FrugalFamilyLivingImagine. Electeic vehicles actually work as long as your going always downhill hahaha
This is awesome news! I pray that we will see this commercialized quickly. That being said, MIT have been known in the past to invent novel battery technologies that were amazing in the lab. None of them have actually made it into mass production that I can recall. But this time it could be different because I think battery research and innovation across the world is approaching a critical mass. Something really big is about to explode onto the market. Maybe this one is it.
Liquid sodium. The developer, Donald Sadoway, is an MIT alum.
Till it's not commercially available, it's in the make-believe domain!
Another miracle battery just around the corner that gives a gazillion miles of range and recharges to 300% in two seconds, never to be heard of again...
Just WOW! Is there any independant verification of their claims?
Sam, thank you for all you do. I have learned so much from you over the past couple of years. You are very good at presenting new technology and good information that I was unaware of from any other channel. And it is always super-interesting! All good wishes.
Lets see if they can be manufactured at an obscene scale and where and when that happens. Thanks for reporting this!
WOW! Can't wait to see this tech on all EVs! Wonder what kind of range and charging speeds we could expect with this tech in a Model Y?!
It's fake news
Thank for your content Sam! I would love to see you making a video about upgrading an existing battery of your ev and what future is holding for that segment.
Unless commercial production at an affordable price is starting, then somebody merely producing a battery that has 700+ wh/kg is old news.
Likely has lots of silicon and exotic carbon allotropes. It will be interesting to see if they have really cracked the longevity, safety and swelling problems. Limited roll out maybe a way to find out.
Hi. I would be interested to know who is quoting an energy density. All Lamborgini have licensed is a cathode material to replace cobalt. This bio material will support a lot of electrons, is stable and can work with fast charging, but it is not yet a battery. So let's look again in 2-3 years when a battery can reach commercial production.
If true, commercial trucking would be a great use for these batteries!
A lot of areas would enjoy this technology. Related: Edison trucks has a practical approach to EV trucking.
This is an excellent program. It has great content and information. The Host is highly knowledgeable about battery and EV technology development. I learned a lot from this podcast.
Can you imagine what that could do for the aviation industry?
They are suitable for aviation. 765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. Aviation is going to need something like CATL's condensed battery with 500 Wh/kg, which are very expensive and probably have short cycle life.
With internal resistance that low, these batts will either drastically reduce or eliminate the need for capacitor buffering energy.
They are talking about "cathode energy density". That's not even cell level...the anode is usually pretty heavy, so my guess is we are talking a 250-350 wh/kg cell.
Aslo, discharging a cell in 6 minutes not something new or astounding. Any LiPo battery in toy RC gadgets will happily do that, it's just 10C discharging. LiPos can discharge much faster than that, 20C or more.
We can use the term " energy density " for only cell, not for anode and cathode
@@aligenc659,
the term "energy density" is very often used for just the cathode or the anode in scientific papers.
I have checked the news about this Lambo licensed technology: they claim 50% energy densityimprovement over NMC cathodes only.
The only reason RC model batteries have that high discharge rate, is because they're small. there is a lot of exposed surface area compared to the volume of the cell. I don't know if you've noticed, but the new Tesla 4680 cylindrical cells don't charge as fast as the older but smaller 18650 cells. Mathematically, the the surface area of a cell goes up on the square of its size, but the volume goes up on the cube, making it more difficult for heat to escape the innermost part of the cell, which limits current density. Another advantage of RC batteries, is the "pouch" cells. A flat, thin cell has much more surface area, than a cylindrical cell. Blade cells, such as the GM "Ultium" Lithium Iron Phosphate cells have good thermal characteristics allowing higher current density. Like pouch cells, there's a lot of area, and, close proximity of the center of the cells to those outer surfaces.
Cell Energy Density = (Potential difference between anode and cathode)×(Cathode charge (capacity))×(Electrode thickness)×(1−Porosity)
@@vincentrobinette1507
RC pouch cells can be bigger than a 18650 in weight and size, and still discharge more than 20C...volume and structure is not all when discussing discharge rates. LiPo cells use a polymer gel for electrolyte, which is high conductive for ions. Discharging generates less heat, compared to other types of cells.
The same happens for cylindrical formats, not all cells are created equal. You can buy 18650 cells which will happily discharge at 10C (~30A), it's pretty common. But no all of them will do...
Going from RnD in a lab to manufacture will take a very long time, I don't expect to see this battery technology arrive any time soon. Seems like a good advancement, though.
There's so many components to a good battery:
1. Affordable
2. Easy to manufacture
3. High energy density
4. Rapid charging speed
5. Fire resistant
6. Can release energy rapidly
7. Doesn't use problematic metals like cobalt.
It's a tall order for researchers and engineers to get right.
The exciting thing is seeing this promising technology come out of the lab and into production - hopefully.
There's always a "but" with any break through. If they can be produced quickly, reliably and cost effectively AND last longer than any current technology, then it's a home run. Tesla must monitor all battery developments for this kind of result...
Very exciting how the development of batteries are coming along. I’d love to see a 1000 mile electric vehicle out there….
EV technology reporter who mixes power and energy after many years of reporting on the same topic.
That's like a culinar that can't tell salt from sugar.
@ 9 : 41
Energy density is how far ur vehicle will travel
Power density is how fast it will get there
What I really want is all of these new batteries/packs made to be reverse compatible with most if not all EV's out now. I would easily pay to double if not triple the range of my Mach E if a replacement pack made from these new cells, once the present pack "wears" out (70% of original range). THIS is what is really needed. I know the OEM's would have to made the the controllers compatible or make replacement ones too but it should be done ASAP.
MIT ahead of the latest NASA sodium batteries... well done!
No use unless it's commercially viable. NASA uses their own solid state 500Wh batteries but too expensive for the private sector.
When I started using semiconductors the cry was "You can have the best, and the cheapest and now. Choose which 2 from 3"
Lamborghinis are not cheap so that settles that choice - 1 from 3 IMNSHO.
seems like a no brainer to hire MIT to do the engineering when it comes to developing new technologies. those dollars sure paid off in this situation.
765 Wh (in the title), 765 W/kg (in the video). Please EV, surely the units of measure are Wh/kg. And what kg are we talking about. Is this Wh/kg of cathode material, Wh/kg of battery, WH/kg of battery module? All so different. I appreciate clear and unambiguous English expression - and I am sure others viewers do as well. Please help to diminish the confusion in this space.
It is 765 Wh/kg in the cathode according to the research paper, so I'm guesstimating that the cell will have 306 Wh/kg energy density, which is only slightly better than the best NMC811 cells that have 300 Wh/kg energy density.
Imagine, planing hydrofoil container ships delivering goods around the world ten times faster than current ICE cargo ships. The cost of goods would become up to 50% cheaper.
If we want to save the environment we live in we must spread the knowledge of building these kind of batteries like we did with the first electrical apparatus in the last century. Handle it as it is a country security issue we all have to profit from, not a small number of nerds. That time has really ended!
CATL is producing a Condensed Battery with a density of 500 Wh/kg.
Over 2022 & 2023, CATL invested over $5B on R&D.
I highly doubt MIT's battery is going to be provided to other vehicle manufacturers.
It's very likely to be produced in very limited capacity, less than 100MWh per year
CATL Condensed Battery has very poor cycles
@rywo No
@@rwyo83 is your source "I Made It Up"?
Since CATL "is producing" this battery, can you name even one product that contains this battery? Can you point us to where these cells/batteries are available for purchase?
@@skipondowntheroad5833 I tried to put the link but it got automod, you'll have to use Google mate
A recent poll by Rasmussen Reports revealed that 65 percent of American adults are unlikely to consider purchasing an electric vehicle (EV) for their next car.
Spent some time on the MIT campus it is a world class innovator
Acceleration of the car is limited by tire grip and not horsepower. There likely is not reason to go above a certain horsepower. There are some tricks: (1) spoilers, (2) a vacuum thing to suck the car to the ground, and of course (3) Tesla's SpaceX package.
This battery sounds like a candidate for airplanes and Industrial power tools.
Sam has after all this time and numerous commenter corrections, no real excuse for still confusing energy density with power density as per 2:50 - 2:54.
Needless to say, by the time this latest 'breakthrough/game-changer' matures, it will be overtaken with who knows how many other such 'breakthroughs'.
Anyone betting big on any current battery tech, in production or just lab announced, is a wild gambler who needs to exercise patience and restraint. Lots of it.
The real innovation is the organic Kathode. If one can form an organic anode you can build batteries without metal.
When I heard they use rubber in the cathode couldn’t help but think that would help with the 4680 dry process that has been so problematic. Also at a 10C cell would probably have to be a can type anyway. Even if it’s not the giant leap forward as it seems it could be a big big jump. Thanks Sam!
These TAQ batteries use aluminum foil current collectors in the cathode, copper foil current collectors in the anode and lithium in the electrolyte contains lithium, so they contain 3 metals, plus the steel can. Today's lithium ion anodes contain graphite with 10%-15% silicon added, so they already don't contain metal (except for the current collector).
That's good news seeing the w/kg feature cut in half. They need to push hard for even more improvements to that. Gadoline still has 17 times the energy density. A quart bottle of gasoline has about 9x the density, so there's still a long way to go with both weight and volume of fuel needed.
That may be, but for most applications gasoline has an efficiency of just 20%.
One note - Lamborghini has licensed the technology from MIT - they don't own it. They get it at a discount. That is how MIT labs work. I think this is very exciting and points to a potential exponentional leap in capability.
No standard tire will give you 1.3 seconds from 0 to 60. the limitation is tires not power, dragsters have massive custom tires that are not practical for street cars, and the Tesla Roadster can supposedly get to 1.2 seconds from 0 to 60 by using cold thrusters.
Batteries with the power you are talking about will be used for aviation where cost of the batteries will be justified by fuel savings.
Sounds good on paper! Let's see what the commercial implementation looks like.
The paper states 765W/kg with subscript cathode..."higher than most cobalt cathodes". Thus, 765W/kg is not the specific energy of the entire battery, just the cathode. Nonetheless, fantastic performance for a cobalt free cathode.
Is that for a complete battery? He says "test of this material showed that its conductive and capacity were similar to cobalt containing batteries"
I wonder if the announced power density is somehow related to the fact that
many years ago
Lamborghini and MIT started a common research program
on structural composite batteries...
Sam, your mind is definitely blown.
Eventually the problem with insane acceleration isn’t the power but lack of traction. You need to get all that power to the ground
Rest assured, those that were in public denial, are secretly working on their EV designs. They just don't want to admit it.
Good to hear, but not unexpected- many buckets of money in the US and far abroad have been hammering away with this. It is a break the entire EV change landscape badly needed to sell well.
Sure, sports cars, but this kind of ultracapacitor technology, is also the key to unlocking aviation energy transition. That prospect is considerably more exciting imho.
See it before I believe it 🙈
I already read the papers, nothing special
If the Military Industrial Complex aint knocking on your door for it its because its not really applicable for use.
Lamborghini can afford non commercial low volume production of the battery, for it complements their sales model. Weight, energy density and performance will enable Lamborghini to sit atop the performance podium.
Can last longer than the currently available battery.
Thats the real key point. High density means nothing if it last only several cycle
You forgot to mention that this could be a big enabler for electric aircraft because of its energy to weight ratio.
They don't own the technology. As is usual, MIT has a tech licensing schema for patents developed under them. Lamborghini has licensed it, but they have a non-exclusive license. MIT is free to license it out to other companies.
The new Taycan that just broke race track record within 1 second from the Rimac Nevera, which is also owned by Porsche/Bugatti, is using this new battery and will be unveiled in March! This is the reason Porsche has cut back on EV production in the past couple of years. They are working mostly on variants that use their engines with super compact batteries with extreme density and extreme low weight, including test vehicles with Quantumscape solid state. No more range anxiety or charging issues. Add to this mass production of their synthetic fuel, and Porsche will annihilate Tesla in its tracks!
Lets see a production ramp, then we’ll talk.
500kw charging speed and 765Wh energy density is good enough for electric aircraft, let alone hypercars! Easily 1000 horsepower per electric motor installed in each wheel... We are talking 4000 horsepower BEVs.... Madness.
Blimey - the tech is coming so fast - thanks for the excellent reporting! Why Lamborghini - maybe to test with limited production?
The carbon-fibre revolution would ensue.
Lamborghini is owned by Audi, which is in turn owned by Volkswagen. That’s a huge lineup of cars that could access this battery tech
Lamborghini also builds tractors and agriculture equipment this could be a game changer
I don’t know if this directly applies, but Elon has said that prototypes are easy production is hard.
Cell Energy Density = (Potential difference between anode and cathode)×(Cathode charge (capacity))×(Electrode thickness)×(1−Porosity)
Reference please.
I really hope this catches on and we can finally have electric airplanes.
765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. For aviation, you are going to need something like CATL's condensed battery with 500 Wh/kg, which are very expensive and probably have short cycle life. Elysian estimates that you can have 800km of flying range with 450 Wh/kg and 1000km of flying range with 550 Wh/kg.
YahOOO! Quiet and affordable electric motorcycles at last!
If real, there is no way that MIT would give Lamborghini exclusive access to the technology.
Awesome. That means you have a very good 75 kW battery that will have a weight of about 120 kilos depending of the weight of the frame and cooling.
Far less than the weight of an equivalent ICE and that is nor even accounting for the gubbins that and ICE needs to work.
"Awesome" you say before saying that the battery is 75 kw, but kw are not units of battery capacity
@@jimmys6566 yeah it should be kwh but I'm writing a quick comment. Not a science paper.
It can be achieved if you don't consider the cost
When a company which has shown no enthusiasm for batteries, buys the best one, I have to worry that they'll just sequester it and deny the world this technology.
And BOOM all battery tech before this is antiquated. Toyota sitting on the fence for a bit don’t sound so stupid now.
Yes, totally mind blowing.
It all about power to weight ratio. How much of the battery power is used to drag the battery around and how much structural support is needed to deal with the weight of the battery.
Hello Sam, Such exciting news.... I just hope this technology finds its way to cars for the mass market. If all this is as it seems on face value the only thing that could be more exciting would be an ambient temperature super conductor? This is surely not out of the question?
Thanks btw for your outstanding optimism, it helps many of us out here!
The next brand new Lamborghini model may well be a single-seater personal flying quadcopter, with this battery technology and super efficient radial motors.
How about, the Prieto 3d battery😊? A project from a Colorado startup, developed at a university for years.
If this is true then electric air travel, semi's, and trucks have all made a leap into "clearly" being better than ICE and turboprop engines.
No, they won't make a leap with this TAQ battery, because Sam Evans didn't understand that 765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so this new TAQ cell should have a cell energy density around 306 Wh/kg, which is only slightly better than today's cutting edge NMC which reaches 300 Wh/kg. Given that this is early prototyping and it will take a minimum of 5 years to reach mass production, this battery won't be nearly as revolutionary by the time it makes it to market, since we will have LFP with the same energy density and same 10C charging in 5 years time, but they will have double the cycle life of the TAQ battery.
I wish I had a dollar for every breakthrough battery on RUclips. How many cycles before it breaks down? Rare metals or chemicals needed? Temperature range? Cost to manufacture? Thermal stability? Etc. Have there been independent tests?🐝🐝
All they have is any early prototype in a laboratory and one published research paper, so this is a long way from commercialization. 12% capacity loss after 1000 recharge cycles and 30% capacity loss after 2000 recharge cycles. It uses 90% TAQ + 10% rubber in the cathode with an aluminum or copper current collector, standard LC30 electrolyte and standard lithiated graphite in the anode with a copper current collector. Temperature range wasn't mentioned in the research paper. Researchers say that it should cost 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of NMC batteries because TAQ should be cheap to manufacture. There are no independent tests.
If they can stick this stuff into a 4680 and make packs Ill be jumping for joy
This is groundbreaking and would make pick up trucks and larger trucks viable for most tasks.
Not really, because 765 Wh/kg is the cathode energy density, so we can guesstimate 306 Wh/kg at the cell level, which is only slightly better than today's best NMC batteries with 300 Wh/kg. It will probably be another 5 years before these TAQ batteries reach mass production, and by that time LFP will probably be at 300 Wh/kg and support 12C charging, so the real advantage of these batteries will be the lower cost, since they don't contain metals in the cathode.
We need this kind of energy density in order for EV trucks to fully compete with ICE trucks, especially when pulling a trailer
All you need for that is battery cells on the underside of the trailer, as well as on the cab, to give it a range that the ICE lorry cannot compete with on any comparator.
My house is wired for about 50 Kwatts total. So a charger that takes the power of 10 fully loaded houses. 240 volts, at 2000 amps, for example. Or 1000 amps at 500 volts. Id be interested in the thickness of the charging cable, and the huge connector to handle 500 Kwatts.
A normal "fully loaded" house is about 10kw max. (50 amps @230v). 50kw is enormous for a normal house. ie about 250 amps wire rating!
@@tomlewitt : When I built my house, in Canada, I put in a 200 amp service. So 240 V x 200 A is about 50 Kwatt. The insulated service wires were about 12 mm diameter each, if I recall correctly. I'd still be interested in whatever a 500 Kwatt charger would use for a cable, and a connector, and if there would be a weight requirement to wrestle the cable.
@@drewthompson7457 Wow that's a serious installation. Great for decent home charging of EV's. Yes, these future 0.5 or 1 MW chargers will need incredible cables, for currents up to 1200A , at 800V working...Let's not even think about aircraft charging! ..15MW batteries, (small 90-passenger airliner) needing a 2-hour max turnaround!
Another Battery of the week. It would be a sad week without "This Changes Everything". Never to be heard from again. Not saying it's bogus, but we've been on this ride a long time.