There's a huge thrill when seeing usable images on that first roll of home-developed film! It sets a hook that makes us want to do it again. And again... It's hard to put a monetary value on that benefit but it's real. On the flip side, when there's disappointment in a failure, DIY is still worth it. If a lab returns unsatisfactory results, we can grumble about how someone else dropped the ball. (They might or might not have but it can be hard to tell sometimes.) But if we've kept control of the whole process, we at least learn something from the experience. Thanks mat for another great episode! Oh, and PS: The not-so-subtle plugs for FPP and products they carry are fun too! Good people, and they supply lots of things that others don't have.
Excellent, excellent info (especially about labs, turnaround time, human error and Louis Dejoy losing your package)! As we say over here at HQ - Sh*t Happens! - Mike
Hello Mat, and again...GREAT content here!! I"m just about to dip my toe into DIY film development. I do a decent bit of 120 and 35mm B&W...I do some 120 color, my 35mm color (and B&W) is starting to increase a LOT due to my PressPan (Xpan pano format) and my old metal HorizonT swing lens camera. I"m hooked on pano. I'm looking to develop because my 35mm film of choice is Kodak Vision3 cinema film, with ECN-2 processing and dealing with remjet removal. And doing my own bulk rolling of 35mm. I just can't get that stuff done in a lab really. My local lab for regular 120 and 35mm is only about $7/roll here in New Orleans. But they don't do LF film or the Vison3 stuff...so, DIY for me. I bought 3x 35mm bulk loading units off eBay....and next month, I"m grabbing a film changing tent, and a beginner kit with Patterson tank and reels, measuring tools...etc. I"ll start off with B&W to get the process right, but I"m really excited about the ECN-2 stuff. I have a sous vide unit already, so gonna dedicate that to temperature control. Once I get all this down...I'm thinking next year, I'll get an Intrepid camera and attempt some LF stuff. I think I"ll eventually save some money...but for me, the impetus is to develop things my local lab won't touch....and that's why I"m going for it. Thanks again for wonderful content and Merry Turkey Mat! CC
Here in Germany, DYI processing is the only viable way to handle 4x5 (especially C-41) for an amateur like me - lab's are really expensive (and part of it is sending film back and forth if the lab isn't around the corner). The break-even point was much lower for me, as the only "additional" expense (to the equipment I already had) was an SP-445 and a TCS-1000 (good enough for C-41). And the one time I let a lab develop my 4x5, I got clamp holes in the visible part of the negative (on one side only, but still) - that much for lab quality (and this was a quite well renowned professional lab).
I bought a Paterson kit for b&w roll film shortly after I started film like 1.5 years ago and while I was scared to start I eventually did and never looked back. That said one main reason I started becoming comfortable shooting film was because of a lab I found very close to home. It's not high end and the scans aren't high res but my film guy develops at like 5 bucks a 35mm roll and can do literally all kinds of still films upto 4x5. I do b&w at home in part for cost but also cause I love the pushing flexibility and fast turnaround (I mess up so much though...). I go to my film guy for everything else, so grateful to have him around. Matt, I just wanted to let you know that after consuming many of your videos I finally took the 4x5 LF plunge (with the Intrepid for now). Thanks so much for inspiring that. I'm sure all my initial photos are atrocious but I can't wait to get them back from the lab (no 4x5 dev reels owned just yet but soon).
Great video ,bravo ,just one more thing about labs .If you send your sheet films inside the film holders it can be broken during the transport or , the lab can mix your well light tight holders with old completly exausted films holders .After that, to have a complete refund of your precious Toyo films holders it's a dream.
no doubt about if I should develop my film or not, here. small city and I think there's only one or two guys left who develops film. I don't know about large format film cause I've never shot colour and think I'd have to send films somewhere and wouldn't be so convenient. so, I'll keep developing my films and sheets.
Getting someone else to develop my film for me would be like getting someone else to eat my ice-cream for me! It's what it is all about. (Seriously for colour you need enough throughput or the chemistry will expire before you can use it. Maybe two rolls a week minimum. Also I feel bad about putting colour chemistry down the drain so it is worth sending out or using a community darkroom and pooling resources. Stills here in Edinburgh have C41 always made up. )
I’d love to learn more about mixing my own chemicals. Also any tips for cleaning dirty used sheet film holders that may need a bit more than vacuuming/dusting?
Hey Sam thanks for checking out the episode and I recommend staying tuned to the channel because a new, darkroom-focused series is right around the corner. ;)
B&W DIY processor and printer since 1968. It's my lack of true-cost/business-practice know-how that is the reason I no longer have my own photo biz and instead work for a giant company. But the love of photography and the creative challenges of darkroom work never fade. I would note that film processing can be carried out in daylight in a kitchen or bathroom (respecting, of course, proper care with chemistry), and only the loading requires complete darkness. Traveling photojournalists have rigged all sorts of ways to create a loading environment. Great job on this one, Matt.
My photo lab introduced me to your RUclips page. They watched me go from 35mm, to 120, and eventually sold me my first 4x5 camera. Offered me some space to hang some large prints when I get good at this. Great to have a relationship like that. Looking forward to developing at home!
Hey Andrew thanks for checking out the channel and the comment. You've got a great lab that's fostering growth, something we love to see in the film community!
I tend to split things up, B&W I do at home because I'm picky about which chemicals I want to use to get that final result I have in my head. While I can process colour at home, I don't shoot a lot of it so I farm that out to a lab in Montreal, they've been my go-to for several years now and I have a good relationship.
I'm a little concerned about your suggestion to use N95 masks in the lab. N95 are for particulates and if this is what you're trying to protect the viewers from, that's fine, but what about protection from noxious gas or other chemicals where painter's masks may be more appropriate. Here's a list from Home Depot - Green filters protect you from ammonia gases. - White filters protect you from acid gases. - Black filters protect you from organic vapors like solvents in paint and gasoline. - Blue filters provide protection against carbon monoxide. - Yellow filters protect against acid gases and organic vapors. - Teal filters protect you from any particulates free of oil (N95, N99 or N100). - Orange filters protect you from any particulates (P95, P99, R95, R99 or R100). - Purple filters protect you from any particulates (P100).
I'm overdue on doing it. Especially with the easier B&W, and the rising costs of film, it's impossible to shoot without burning a hole in my pocket. Self-developing (and bulk-rolling for smaller formats) makes it much more affordable in the long run.
Thanks Matt, very helpful for comparison. Luckily no shipping required as there are several labs processing color here in Montreal. Only one lab for b&w but I do that at home in my bathroom after dark. I cheat and do my fresh dev and stop dilutions with tap water, so far so good. Otherwise distilled water would be half my cost per roll. I get my color roll film back from the lab uncut, so need to buy sleeves for those anyway. My Epson v800 paid for itself after about 100 rolls or so. Cheers!
One thing that could be thought about is that my Chevy dealership down the road is 170 bucks an hour in labor. 6 bucks for 35mm isn't too bad. I know it goes up a lot from there but then again 170 an hour is a lot too.
As photography is a hobby to me I fully expect to spend time and money on it. Actually I kind of expect to spend some quality time doing something I enjoy just for fun. I don't do it for financial gain so I don't need to think about how much time I save or how much I "earn" per hour doing it some way or the other. I also only shoot black and white film, if I want color I shoot digital. So when I started film photography again after some 20 years of just digital (back In the 90:s I did shoot color and had my films processed at labs) I never even considered anything else than processing my own films and doing my own prints as they are an integral part of the hobby for me. Or one might say it's a hobby on it's own right that happens to benefit and add to the hobby of photography. For me the whole idea of film photography is doing it the old way, doing every step of the process hands on by myself.
Developing and scanning your own black and white's a no brainer. Buy the tank and other stuff cheap on Ebay. Also speed is good. I can shoot a couple of rolls in the morning and have them scanned by the late afternoon, and most of that is film drying time. Once you have your workflow figured it's nearly as easy as making a cup of coffee.
B&W film developing has been a very rewarding experience. The fact that you are involved with every aspect of the end result gives the photographer a sense of "Wow this is all me!!!" From taking the image to printing it.
I already develope my own and love the enjoyment of doing b&w need to get on to colour. Have developed colour but not at home. I have used labs for colour .
I shoot colour, slide, and B/W… It’s definitely cost effective for me to develop and scan my own. It just takes too long for my film to get back (local outfit that does national work too). I love processing it’s very relaxing for me. But definitely the chemicals can be expensive 😒
@@MatMarrash I bought a larger Patterson so I can develop more reels in one go… saves me having to wait for tanks and reels to dry too. DIY is worth it…just an investment 😜😎😊
I remember watching youtube videos on how to develop film, then learning about Caffenol and the scream I let out when it actually worked. Then being brave enough to do C-41 and E6. As others have mentioned, the feeling of that roll coming out of the tank never gets old :-). Great stuff as usual, Mat!
I recently got an Intrepid 4x5 with some Portra 400 sheet film. I have a 3-reel Patterson tank with a MOD54 sheet film holder. Since it holds 6 sheets, I'd be so scared about messing up 6 sheets. Portra is so expensive :(
Get completely confident in developing one or two sheets. I’d also say practice putting negatives in the holder (exposed film sheets help). Once the confidence grows you’ll be comfortable doing more at once
It can be super nerve-wracking to DIY process pricey films. If possible, try practicing with B&W to the point at which there's no doubt about loading and handling. From there, the only risk is temperature control.
I personally really think diy developing is only for me if prices are too high, or you really want to. Its not difficult to develop your own film, but it takes a big learning curve to make each steps perfect, making sure they're dust free & spots free. As well as the post processing on softwares, trying to get the colors look right as if you got them from the labs. Each roll now takes half an hour for me to complete, not including the scanning times. I've not probably screwed up dozens of rolls just to get the loading, drying scanning processes right, but they still aren't good enough compared to the consistencies I get from most labs.. At least back home, the developing + scanning prices are not as high as in US, and I'm able to drop off the film cause they're close enough. And the results does look better than my mirrorless scanning results... Its a lot more complicated when you need to figure out chemicals, dark spaces, drying spaces, scanning; compared to drop off film at lab, gets results the same day, or couple days later etc..
I think the second half of this DIY should be scanning. I think that's an easier cost save for most people. Certainly with LF film and even MF film traditional scanning is the way to go and saves a lot of cash. Great coverage on this sir!
I love developing my own film! Cost saving isn't the only reason. I often find my results are just as good as a lab, and my scans are way better! Rolling your own film, really does add to the savings, that isn't a large format thing though :)
I worked many years ago in partnership with a B&W laboratory technician but it was only 35mm. I learned some things, and in your videos learning others and recycling what I learned is fun and very useful. So yes! more lab content!
My favorite thing about developing my film myself is the great feeling I get when I see the results. Of course I'm ignoring those early days screwups and what screwups are coming :o) I stopped shooting film a while back but I've started shooting and developing film again, partly due to this channel and DistPhoto partly because I got burned out on shooting digital. The wonderful thing that I don't have to deal with is justifying the cost of developing equipment. I already have it. I've had my Jobo and tanks (up to and including an 8x10 tank) for almost a decade. In my mind, my fixed costs are nearly $0.00. Congrats to Caitlin K.! Watch your mailbox Mat. I have an insulated bag, a cold pak, and... you can guess what I'm going to mail out this week. :o)
That's the best part about being into it for a while, those initial costs are paid for so early on the savings keep accumulating. Funny you should mention mailboxes, those empty film boxes you requested are on their way! :)
I have just upgraded my developing tanks this week to Jobo after more than an decade with Paterson. I made myself a Lego modular base-roller too, now the drums rotate smoothly
one other point, diy film developing only makes sense when you have decided which film fits your look, or the subjects you shoot, as much of this cost is relevent to chemistry, as some processes use different amounts, some have parts (A,B,C) which must be mixed before use, and only then, like aquadere adhesive, they go 'off' if mixed to early! the number of cylinders to mix in/with is a factor here, also the safe light type, if the film is sensitive to most frequencies then the 'lab' is set up to the DARK rules, whereas paper negs allow Yellow or Red safe light use, as these are insensitive to the level of exposure, so tank/tray method selection is also important and if you switch film, the lab /procedures have to be modified to suit.
Home development was a no-brainer for me. The only lab I could find was charging about $15 per sheet of 4x5 black and white. I also enjoy the process and like being involved and being able to experiment with development times etc.
Moving into 4x5 black and white processing👍 Perhaps with your chemistry skills you could show the most environmentally friendly chemicals for self processing B&W? Most powders seem pretty nasty?
That's a tough topic to navigate, for sure. It's easy to remain friendly with developers, but fixers and blix can be terrible if flushed after a single use. Great idea!
I shoot black and white and has been developing my own film in my toilet. Hahaha .. I use a 5 reel Paterson tank to increase my development efficiency. 10:46 Did you mention you use water as stop bath? Is it as efficient as the proper stop bath chemical? How long do you need to run the water through?
Hey Jacky great question! For water stop I give the film ~ 30 sec. of continuous wash, up to 60 sec. with sheet films. Not as quick, but cheaper than stop bath.
@@jackyleecs I've heard of a few eco-friendly fixer alternatives, but never personally tried any. This is a topic request I've received a few times and might need to do some more research. Thanks for the question!
I prefer to grump at my own mistakes than lab's mistakes in developing B/W. It takes time to perfect that but not too long. And it's better to DIY if you print in darkroom because you can customize development to the way you print. If your enlarger head is a diffuser, you might want denser negatives. A condenser would work better with slightly thinner negatives.
Really great point about catering development! Personally I like how DIY'ing has allowed me to make negatives that scan, silver print, and alt. process print pretty well. Something like that could take lots of back and forth with a specialty lab.
interesting discussion, but you also forgot variable and fixed costs associated with scanning the negatives, aka the mounting fluid, plastic films, scanner itself, computer/software costs, which if you do dev. yourself, is the next logical step. but you also forget the printing yourself costs, enlargers, paper, filters, toner chemicals, etc.
I develop all mo own B&W, C-41 and E6 films. I did for a while try using an external lab, and yes they have a Noritsu scanner so can scan better than I can but price was £16.00 for a roll of 35mm hi res scanned onto CD (that's about $22 USD) Became a non braner to carry on myself plus it pushes you and you are involved in the complete end to end process.
Anthony you bring up a good point with start-to-finish control. Somebody as involved in the process to still shoot film, even large format, probably likes being a part of it.
Makes sense based on the FC/VC breakeven point to self-develop BW. Now to buy some fixed costs. Good timing on this video to get us level-set on rising film prices.
@@MatMarrash No I do not self develop as I use a great lab in Hanoi at a very reasonable market price. Interesting to image that Cooke had it right 100+ years ago. The Buhl projection lens isn't shabby either for color. Thanks for asking. Go LFFs.
I'm mainly a black and white film photographer and I've developed my own B&W since I started. Once you get past the initial set up costs - I think it's well worth it plus it cuts out the wait time. Note: I roughly use around six rolls of color film per year which I do send out to the lab, maybe that will change in the future - not sure yet.
@@MatMarrash I hope more people do start to develop their film and then their own prints. This will help keep the analog community strong for a long time.
Mat, that was good. I can say that I have never had a roll of B&W film developed in a lab. I started developing my film in 1977 while stationed in Germany. Had my own DIY home lab and most of the film was outdated. And I don't remember getting any bad results from the film, only the photographer(me). I also developed my own E6 and made prints on Cibrachrome. Kodachrome and C41 are the only two films that were lab-processed. At the present time, I have a refrigerator that is full of film, mostly 4x5 which I need to shoot up. I have been working on getting members of our photo club interested in film again, and also those that have never done film processing.
I like the breakdown of self developing. I've wanted to do my own developing, but I mostly shoot color and it wasn't until I started binging your videos (and getting a Mamiya RB67) that I got a strong itch to start shooting more B&W
The shipping costs and time to ship to a lab got me over the “break even point” very quickly. I’m in the CONUS, but am still 100s of miles from a decent film lab. So shipping costs there and back, plus all the time required: ship the film and wait for developing/scanning killed some of the fun of finishing a few rolls and wanting to see the results (and more film piled up in the meantime). Then I started 4x5 and saw the dev/scan price per sheet was the same as one roll, and said enough was enough. Thankfully I already had a DSLR, so the upfront costs were mostly chemicals and containers.
Where I live its process it yourself or don't do film at all. Been doing mine for a long time -- first in a small tank and now in a temperature controlled Jobo machine. Colour negative or Bw -- scan the results. Be nice if it really was an economic decision... maybe if there was an affordable 4x5 scanning back I wouldn't need to.
I have been developing my own B&W and color since the late 70s ... most of the startup cost are way gone, but every once in a while I get a new reel or heating device, but I always feel that you should shoot more and edit later ... home developing and bulk rolls for 35mm make sense to me!!!
Thanks for the content, it all depends. Developing film can be fun and not too difficult. In my opinion, Black and White is easier than color, when starting out. I do a lot of black and white so it makes sense to develop at home. With color, it all depends, sometimes I prefer to just send the 35mm and 120 out for development. I find that my slides look better when processed at a lab. One thing to add, when home developing, it’s important to manage dust, it can get on the negatives. The other issue I find is water quality, some hard water can leave calcium stains on the negatives, it’s just another step to carefully clean the negative. I use distilled water throughout the process.
Those are some great points to the pros/cons of home processing. Water quality was something I'd been taking for granted for years until ~ 2019. Local water quality suddenly became questionable and now distilled water has added to cost. The upside is no more headaches in the darkroom!
I’m just gonna say it: This is my opinion: I photographer’s workflow starts at an idea for an composition and ends at the point of publication. So if you call yourself an analog photographer you need to master the workflow from start to finish. From idea to print
This was a perfectly timed video - I've just started a large project on 8x10 and have been trying different film stocks. A lot of labs don't offer a choice of developers, apart from one I use and it takes around a month to get negs back, which has somewhat hampered me as well as the cost. I have a Jobo expert drum and a separate rotary drum, which I both got at good used prices, so think I'm going to go DIY. I have shot a box of Adox CHS 100 ii - anyone else got experience with that film and what developer did you use? For labs I really recommend Harman in the UK for Ilford processing - quick turnaround and £4.75 per sheet of 8x10, which is a total bargain! Labo-Argentique in France offer a choice of developers including 2 from Bergger. Labyrinth in London is a good all rounder but turnaround is around a month unless you're a big famous photographer. Richard Photo Lab in Santa Clarita, USA is excellent and where I get most of my colour 35mm and 120 work processed and scanned.
Thanks for the comment and the lab recommendations! I've only ever worked with CHS 100 in roll film formats but loved how it developed in Pyrocat HD (my go-to B&W).
Really appreciated the cost breakdown! I guess I'm really lucky in Portland to pay half of those average lab costs for just development... I've been nervous about committing to all of those upfront costs but I definitely shoot enough b&w to warrant DIYing.
One thing I didn't mention in the video was how easy it is to accumulate the tools over time. You can always spread out the purchases adding one thing at a time to your darkroom setup.
I think B&W Home Processing is worth it. It is a simpler process with great customization in the operation. (Push/Pull + Dev Combos) I am undecided on the Color Home Process. The chemicals are relatively expensive, and the lab services are not that much more in comparison. And the "Cookie Cutter" Operation makes it more consistent.
It's a tough balance to strike, and I'm still not 100% sold on DIY processing C41. As for E6, there's a regional lab I love whose prices are very reasonable.
Great breakdown Mat and very interesting what it all costs - never given it a thought before ;) I do batch developing - save all my exposed film so I can spend a day processing 20+ sheets 4x5. This allows me to process all the FP-4 then all the Fomapan and whatever stocks I'm using in batches and batch the N+1 sheets together too. Just means I should be patient after a day out shooting. Currently my fridge has about 25 sheets exposed C-41 waiting but for these I'll wait until I have a few more as I'll mix a batch of chems and do them all before dumping the chems.
There's a huge thrill when seeing usable images on that first roll of home-developed film! It sets a hook that makes us want to do it again. And again... It's hard to put a monetary value on that benefit but it's real.
On the flip side, when there's disappointment in a failure, DIY is still worth it. If a lab returns unsatisfactory results, we can grumble about how someone else dropped the ball. (They might or might not have but it can be hard to tell sometimes.) But if we've kept control of the whole process, we at least learn something from the experience.
Thanks mat for another great episode!
Oh, and PS: The not-so-subtle plugs for FPP and products they carry are fun too! Good people, and they supply lots of things that others don't have.
Thanks David, FPP is now a part of me so I've got to show Mike and the gang my love whenever possible! :)
Excellent, excellent info (especially about labs, turnaround time, human error and Louis Dejoy losing your package)! As we say over here at HQ - Sh*t Happens! - Mike
MIKE! :D I've had enough shipping woes this year that I'm thinking about getting carrier pigeons.
Hello Mat, and again...GREAT content here!! I"m just about to dip my toe into DIY film development. I do a decent bit of 120 and 35mm B&W...I do some 120 color, my 35mm color (and B&W) is starting to increase a LOT due to my PressPan (Xpan pano format) and my old metal HorizonT swing lens camera. I"m hooked on pano.
I'm looking to develop because my 35mm film of choice is Kodak Vision3 cinema film, with ECN-2 processing and dealing with remjet removal. And doing my own bulk rolling of 35mm.
I just can't get that stuff done in a lab really. My local lab for regular 120 and 35mm is only about $7/roll here in New Orleans. But they don't do LF film or the Vison3 stuff...so, DIY for me.
I bought 3x 35mm bulk loading units off eBay....and next month, I"m grabbing a film changing tent, and a beginner kit with Patterson tank and reels, measuring tools...etc.
I"ll start off with B&W to get the process right, but I"m really excited about the ECN-2 stuff. I have a sous vide unit already, so gonna dedicate that to temperature control.
Once I get all this down...I'm thinking next year, I'll get an Intrepid camera and attempt some LF stuff.
I think I"ll eventually save some money...but for me, the impetus is to develop things my local lab won't touch....and that's why I"m going for it.
Thanks again for wonderful content and Merry Turkey Mat!
CC
Here in Germany, DYI processing is the only viable way to handle 4x5 (especially C-41) for an amateur like me - lab's are really expensive (and part of it is sending film back and forth if the lab isn't around the corner). The break-even point was much lower for me, as the only "additional" expense (to the equipment I already had) was an SP-445 and a TCS-1000 (good enough for C-41). And the one time I let a lab develop my 4x5, I got clamp holes in the visible part of the negative (on one side only, but still) - that much for lab quality (and this was a quite well renowned professional lab).
I bought a Paterson kit for b&w roll film shortly after I started film like 1.5 years ago and while I was scared to start I eventually did and never looked back.
That said one main reason I started becoming comfortable shooting film was because of a lab I found very close to home. It's not high end and the scans aren't high res but my film guy develops at like 5 bucks a 35mm roll and can do literally all kinds of still films upto 4x5.
I do b&w at home in part for cost but also cause I love the pushing flexibility and fast turnaround (I mess up so much though...). I go to my film guy for everything else, so grateful to have him around.
Matt, I just wanted to let you know that after consuming many of your videos I finally took the 4x5 LF plunge (with the Intrepid for now). Thanks so much for inspiring that. I'm sure all my initial photos are atrocious but I can't wait to get them back from the lab (no 4x5 dev reels owned just yet but soon).
Great video ,bravo ,just one more thing about labs .If you send your sheet films inside the film holders it can be broken during the transport or , the lab can mix your well light tight holders with old completly exausted films holders .After that, to have a complete refund of your precious Toyo films holders it's a dream.
no doubt about if I should develop my film or not, here. small city and I think there's only one or two guys left who develops film. I don't know about large format film cause I've never shot colour and think I'd have to send films somewhere and wouldn't be so convenient. so, I'll keep developing my films and sheets.
Getting someone else to develop my film for me would be like getting someone else to eat my ice-cream for me! It's what it is all about. (Seriously for colour you need enough throughput or the chemistry will expire before you can use it. Maybe two rolls a week minimum. Also I feel bad about putting colour chemistry down the drain so it is worth sending out or using a community darkroom and pooling resources. Stills here in Edinburgh have C41 always made up. )
For me personally, the "it's all up to you" is enough of a reason to develop my own black and white film
Agreed!
I’d love to learn more about mixing my own chemicals. Also any tips for cleaning dirty used sheet film holders that may need a bit more than vacuuming/dusting?
Beyond vacuuming and dusting the only other thing I'll do to tidy up holders is an alcohol based cleaner to get rid of grime/adhesives/etc.
@@MatMarrash thank you!
Excellent episode. Currently setting up a Darkroom out of necessity (living remotely). Excited and nervous
Hey Sam thanks for checking out the episode and I recommend staying tuned to the channel because a new, darkroom-focused series is right around the corner. ;)
B&W DIY processor and printer since 1968. It's my lack of true-cost/business-practice know-how that is the reason I no longer have my own photo biz and instead work for a giant company. But the love of photography and the creative challenges of darkroom work never fade. I would note that film processing can be carried out in daylight in a kitchen or bathroom (respecting, of course, proper care with chemistry), and only the loading requires complete darkness. Traveling photojournalists have rigged all sorts of ways to create a loading environment. Great job on this one, Matt.
My photo lab introduced me to your RUclips page. They watched me go from 35mm, to 120, and eventually sold me my first 4x5 camera. Offered me some space to hang some large prints when I get good at this. Great to have a relationship like that. Looking forward to developing at home!
Hey Andrew thanks for checking out the channel and the comment. You've got a great lab that's fostering growth, something we love to see in the film community!
I do my own B&W because I enjoy doing it. Color I send out. I have a lab that does $5 C41 processing per roll of 36mm or 120. Scanning is $15.
Those are some great prices from your local lab!!
I tend to split things up, B&W I do at home because I'm picky about which chemicals I want to use to get that final result I have in my head. While I can process colour at home, I don't shoot a lot of it so I farm that out to a lab in Montreal, they've been my go-to for several years now and I have a good relationship.
Thank you for this. Could you consider doing the same for wet plate please, especially roughly how many images (sq. inch) for silver, collodion.
I'm a little concerned about your suggestion to use N95 masks in the lab. N95 are for particulates and if this is what you're trying to protect the viewers from, that's fine, but what about protection from noxious gas or other chemicals where painter's masks may be more appropriate.
Here's a list from Home Depot
- Green filters protect you from ammonia gases.
- White filters protect you from acid gases.
- Black filters protect you from organic vapors like solvents in paint and gasoline.
- Blue filters provide protection against carbon monoxide.
- Yellow filters protect against acid gases and organic vapors.
- Teal filters protect you from any particulates free of oil (N95, N99 or N100).
- Orange filters protect you from any particulates (P95, P99, R95, R99 or R100).
- Purple filters protect you from any particulates (P100).
I'm overdue on doing it. Especially with the easier B&W, and the rising costs of film, it's impossible to shoot without burning a hole in my pocket. Self-developing (and bulk-rolling for smaller formats) makes it much more affordable in the long run.
It's never too late to start and the results are gratifying once you get going!
This video was awesome timing. I just ordered chemicals from MPEX a few days ago to start developing my own B&W 4x5 sheets in the future!
You'll be a pro in no time Imran!
Congrats to Caitlin on winning the Ondu 4x5 🙌👏.
Thank you Mat for hosting the giveaway!
Thanks Matt, very helpful for comparison. Luckily no shipping required as there are several labs processing color here in Montreal. Only one lab for b&w but I do that at home in my bathroom after dark. I cheat and do my fresh dev and stop dilutions with tap water, so far so good. Otherwise distilled water would be half my cost per roll. I get my color roll film back from the lab uncut, so need to buy sleeves for those anyway. My Epson v800 paid for itself after about 100 rolls or so. Cheers!
One thing that could be thought about is that my Chevy dealership down the road is 170 bucks an hour in labor. 6 bucks for 35mm isn't too bad. I know it goes up a lot from there but then again 170 an hour is a lot too.
As photography is a hobby to me I fully expect to spend time and money on it. Actually I kind of expect to spend some quality time doing something I enjoy just for fun. I don't do it for financial gain so I don't need to think about how much time I save or how much I "earn" per hour doing it some way or the other. I also only shoot black and white film, if I want color I shoot digital. So when I started film photography again after some 20 years of just digital (back In the 90:s I did shoot color and had my films processed at labs) I never even considered anything else than processing my own films and doing my own prints as they are an integral part of the hobby for me. Or one might say it's a hobby on it's own right that happens to benefit and add to the hobby of photography. For me the whole idea of film photography is doing it the old way, doing every step of the process hands on by myself.
Developing and scanning your own black and white's a no brainer. Buy the tank and other stuff cheap on Ebay. Also speed is good. I can shoot a couple of rolls in the morning and have them scanned by the late afternoon, and most of that is film drying time. Once you have your workflow figured it's nearly as easy as making a cup of coffee.
B&W film developing has been a very rewarding experience. The fact that you are involved with every aspect of the end result gives the photographer a sense of "Wow this is all me!!!" From taking the image to printing it.
I already develope my own and love the enjoyment of doing b&w need to get on to colour. Have developed colour but not at home. I have used labs for colour .
I'll be disappointed if there aren't some photos of the feats of strength!
I shoot colour, slide, and B/W… It’s definitely cost effective for me to develop and scan my own. It just takes too long for my film to get back (local outfit that does national work too). I love processing it’s very relaxing for me. But definitely the chemicals can be expensive 😒
Those rising color chemical prices are no joke. Might be time to start sourcing those too!
@@MatMarrash I bought a larger Patterson so I can develop more reels in one go… saves me having to wait for tanks and reels to dry too. DIY is worth it…just an investment 😜😎😊
I would love to learn more about how to DIY develop b&w 35 mm thank you.
I remember watching youtube videos on how to develop film, then learning about Caffenol and the scream I let out when it actually worked. Then being brave enough to do C-41 and E6. As others have mentioned, the feeling of that roll coming out of the tank never gets old :-). Great stuff as usual, Mat!
I recently got an Intrepid 4x5 with some Portra 400 sheet film. I have a 3-reel Patterson tank with a MOD54 sheet film holder. Since it holds 6 sheets, I'd be so scared about messing up 6 sheets. Portra is so expensive :(
Get completely confident in developing one or two sheets. I’d also say practice putting negatives in the holder (exposed film sheets help). Once the confidence grows you’ll be comfortable doing more at once
It can be super nerve-wracking to DIY process pricey films. If possible, try practicing with B&W to the point at which there's no doubt about loading and handling. From there, the only risk is temperature control.
I personally really think diy developing is only for me if prices are too high, or you really want to. Its not difficult to develop your own film, but it takes a big learning curve to make each steps perfect, making sure they're dust free & spots free. As well as the post processing on softwares, trying to get the colors look right as if you got them from the labs. Each roll now takes half an hour for me to complete, not including the scanning times. I've not probably screwed up dozens of rolls just to get the loading, drying scanning processes right, but they still aren't good enough compared to the consistencies I get from most labs..
At least back home, the developing + scanning prices are not as high as in US, and I'm able to drop off the film cause they're close enough. And the results does look better than my mirrorless scanning results... Its a lot more complicated when you need to figure out chemicals, dark spaces, drying spaces, scanning; compared to drop off film at lab, gets results the same day, or couple days later etc..
I think the second half of this DIY should be scanning. I think that's an easier cost save for most people. Certainly with LF film and even MF film traditional scanning is the way to go and saves a lot of cash. Great coverage on this sir!
Thanks Jeremy! I'll admit my scanning isn't great, but has kicked up a few notches since rebooting this channel. Cheers!
I love developing my own film! Cost saving isn't the only reason. I often find my results are just as good as a lab, and my scans are way better! Rolling your own film, really does add to the savings, that isn't a large format thing though :)
It's not quite roll-your-own, but check out what you can do with aerial roll film when cut down into sheets! ruclips.net/video/2HxnHZcpiYM/видео.html
I worked many years ago in partnership with a B&W laboratory technician but it was only 35mm. I learned some things, and in your videos learning others and recycling what I learned is fun and very useful. So yes! more lab content!
Thank you very much Marcos!
My favorite thing about developing my film myself is the great feeling I get when I see the results. Of course I'm ignoring those early days screwups and what screwups are coming :o) I stopped shooting film a while back but I've started shooting and developing film again, partly due to this channel and DistPhoto partly because I got burned out on shooting digital.
The wonderful thing that I don't have to deal with is justifying the cost of developing equipment. I already have it. I've had my Jobo and tanks (up to and including an 8x10 tank) for almost a decade. In my mind, my fixed costs are nearly $0.00.
Congrats to Caitlin K.!
Watch your mailbox Mat. I have an insulated bag, a cold pak, and... you can guess what I'm going to mail out this week. :o)
That's the best part about being into it for a while, those initial costs are paid for so early on the savings keep accumulating. Funny you should mention mailboxes, those empty film boxes you requested are on their way! :)
I have just upgraded my developing tanks this week to Jobo after more than an decade with Paterson. I made myself a Lego modular base-roller too, now the drums rotate smoothly
Do you have any pictures or posts on this Lego modular base? Would love to see it!
@@MatMarrash of course! Should I send them on email?
I love this channel. Thank you so much for making it! I have to process my film at home. I work in Guatemala.
Thanks Santiago! :D
@@MatMarrash it’s amazing to see other people work large format. 👏👏 love how you explain everything with passion and commitment to the medium. 👏👏👏
Great video. I was thinking learning to develop 120 film and this convinced me. Once I learn that it'll be time to move up to 4x5.
Excellent!
one other point, diy film developing only makes sense when you have decided which film fits your look, or the subjects you shoot, as much of this cost is relevent to chemistry, as some processes use different amounts, some have parts (A,B,C) which must be mixed before use, and only then, like aquadere adhesive, they go 'off' if mixed to early! the number of cylinders to mix in/with is a factor here, also the safe light type, if the film is sensitive to most frequencies then the 'lab' is set up to the DARK rules, whereas paper negs allow Yellow or Red safe light use, as these are insensitive to the level of exposure, so tank/tray method selection is also important and if you switch film, the lab /procedures have to be modified to suit.
Home development was a no-brainer for me. The only lab I could find was charging about $15 per sheet of 4x5 black and white. I also enjoy the process and like being involved and being able to experiment with development times etc.
$15/sheet?! Did a deluxe car wash come with it?
@@MatMarrash Haha.... That was pretty much my thought. Not many options in Australia for labs that do large format development.
Thank you! That’s was super informative!! And you covered things I wouldn’t have even thought of.
Glad it was helpful!
Moving into 4x5 black and white processing👍
Perhaps with your chemistry skills you could show the most environmentally friendly chemicals for self processing B&W?
Most powders seem pretty nasty?
That's a tough topic to navigate, for sure. It's easy to remain friendly with developers, but fixers and blix can be terrible if flushed after a single use. Great idea!
I shoot black and white and has been developing my own film in my toilet. Hahaha ..
I use a 5 reel Paterson tank to increase my development efficiency.
10:46 Did you mention you use water as stop bath? Is it as efficient as the proper stop bath chemical? How long do you need to run the water through?
Hey Jacky great question! For water stop I give the film ~ 30 sec. of continuous wash, up to 60 sec. with sheet films. Not as quick, but cheaper than stop bath.
@@MatMarrash I have also heard friends said we can try using white vinegar as fixer. Have you heard of that before?
@@jackyleecs I've heard of a few eco-friendly fixer alternatives, but never personally tried any. This is a topic request I've received a few times and might need to do some more research. Thanks for the question!
I prefer to grump at my own mistakes than lab's mistakes in developing B/W. It takes time to perfect that but not too long. And it's better to DIY if you print in darkroom because you can customize development to the way you print. If your enlarger head is a diffuser, you might want denser negatives. A condenser would work better with slightly thinner negatives.
Really great point about catering development! Personally I like how DIY'ing has allowed me to make negatives that scan, silver print, and alt. process print pretty well. Something like that could take lots of back and forth with a specialty lab.
Really good description of the process. Thank you so much!!!. Its time to get my own equipment and start developing.
Thanks for the comment and happy DIY processing!
DIY?
YES PLEASE!!!
:)
I hope you film some BTS for these 8X10” RA-4 sessions!!! 😩🙏🏾😩
There will certainly be some BTS and a 2021 update video, cheers!
YES ! Show me more, I make 510 Pyro and other developers myself. I wonder how you do it.
Haven't tried any other Pyro developers besides HD, but there are some tricky parts to creating a super-saturated developer concentrate.
I've never added it all up before so this was very informative. Also, LOL to the Ben Horne reference at 14:00.
It was either mention Ben (his work is the best!) or Ken Rockwell; I like to think I took the high ground.
interesting discussion, but you also forgot variable and fixed costs associated with scanning the negatives, aka the mounting fluid, plastic films, scanner itself, computer/software costs, which if you do dev. yourself, is the next logical step. but you also forget the printing yourself costs, enlargers, paper, filters, toner chemicals, etc.
All deep enough topics to have their own dedicated content!
Thanks Mat.
would love more DIY videos :-). Excellent video as per usual!
With all of this support in the comments, this Winter's going to be a busy one for the channel!
Darkroom starter here, looking forward to more developing or enlarge printing video. Thanks Mat, very good content🔥
Thanks! :D
I develop all mo own B&W, C-41 and E6 films. I did for a while try using an external lab, and yes they have a Noritsu scanner so can scan better than I can but price was £16.00 for a roll of 35mm hi res scanned onto CD (that's about $22 USD) Became a non braner to carry on myself plus it pushes you and you are involved in the complete end to end process.
Anthony you bring up a good point with start-to-finish control. Somebody as involved in the process to still shoot film, even large format, probably likes being a part of it.
@@MatMarrash Many thanks Mat. My recent journey down the rabbit hole of large format photography bought me here. Keep up the great work!
Makes sense based on the FC/VC breakeven point to self-develop BW. Now to buy some fixed costs. Good timing on this video to get us level-set on rising film prices.
I've been wanting to ask, are you DIY'ing your color 4x5's? The recent color work with the new Cooke lens is fantastic!
@@MatMarrash No I do not self develop as I use a great lab in Hanoi at a very reasonable market price. Interesting to image that Cooke had it right 100+ years ago. The Buhl projection lens isn't shabby either for color. Thanks for asking. Go LFFs.
I'm mainly a black and white film photographer and I've developed my own B&W since I started. Once you get past the initial set up costs - I think it's well worth it plus it cuts out the wait time. Note: I roughly use around six rolls of color film per year which I do send out to the lab, maybe that will change in the future - not sure yet.
If the rising film prices don't bring folks to DIY, the shipping times will!
@@MatMarrash I hope more people do start to develop their film and then their own prints. This will help keep the analog community strong for a long time.
Mat, that was good. I can say that I have never had a roll of B&W film developed in a lab. I started developing my film in 1977 while stationed in Germany. Had my own DIY home lab and most of the film was outdated. And I don't remember getting any bad results from the film, only the photographer(me). I also developed my own E6 and made prints on Cibrachrome. Kodachrome and C41 are the only two films that were lab-processed. At the present time, I have a refrigerator that is full of film, mostly 4x5 which I need to shoot up. I have been working on getting members of our photo club interested in film again, and also those that have never done film processing.
I like the breakdown of self developing. I've wanted to do my own developing, but I mostly shoot color and it wasn't until I started binging your videos (and getting a Mamiya RB67) that I got a strong itch to start shooting more B&W
The shipping costs and time to ship to a lab got me over the “break even point” very quickly. I’m in the CONUS, but am still 100s of miles from a decent film lab. So shipping costs there and back, plus all the time required: ship the film and wait for developing/scanning killed some of the fun of finishing a few rolls and wanting to see the results (and more film piled up in the meantime). Then I started 4x5 and saw the dev/scan price per sheet was the same as one roll, and said enough was enough. Thankfully I already had a DSLR, so the upfront costs were mostly chemicals and containers.
Where I live its process it yourself or don't do film at all. Been doing mine for a long time -- first in a small tank and now in a temperature controlled Jobo machine. Colour negative or Bw -- scan the results. Be nice if it really was an economic decision... maybe if there was an affordable 4x5 scanning back I wouldn't need to.
I have been developing my own B&W and color since the late 70s ... most of the startup cost are way gone, but every once in a while I get a new reel or heating device, but I always feel that you should shoot more and edit later ... home developing and bulk rolls for 35mm make sense to me!!!
Thanks for the content, it all depends. Developing film can be fun and not too difficult. In my opinion, Black and White is easier than color, when starting out. I do a lot of black and white so it makes sense to develop at home. With color, it all depends, sometimes I prefer to just send the 35mm and 120 out for development. I find that my slides look better when processed at a lab.
One thing to add, when home developing, it’s important to manage dust, it can get on the negatives. The other issue I find is water quality, some hard water can leave calcium stains on the negatives, it’s just another step to carefully clean the negative. I use distilled water throughout the process.
Those are some great points to the pros/cons of home processing. Water quality was something I'd been taking for granted for years until ~ 2019. Local water quality suddenly became questionable and now distilled water has added to cost. The upside is no more headaches in the darkroom!
I’m just gonna say it:
This is my opinion:
I photographer’s workflow starts at an idea for an composition and ends at the point of publication. So if you call yourself an analog photographer you need to master the workflow from start to finish. From idea to print
You need to be very aware of the risks involved if you process and print at home and have septic systems or well water.
You’ve been warned.
This was a perfectly timed video - I've just started a large project on 8x10 and have been trying different film stocks. A lot of labs don't offer a choice of developers, apart from one I use and it takes around a month to get negs back, which has somewhat hampered me as well as the cost. I have a Jobo expert drum and a separate rotary drum, which I both got at good used prices, so think I'm going to go DIY. I have shot a box of Adox CHS 100 ii - anyone else got experience with that film and what developer did you use?
For labs I really recommend Harman in the UK for Ilford processing - quick turnaround and £4.75 per sheet of 8x10, which is a total bargain! Labo-Argentique in France offer a choice of developers including 2 from Bergger. Labyrinth in London is a good all rounder but turnaround is around a month unless you're a big famous photographer. Richard Photo Lab in Santa Clarita, USA is excellent and where I get most of my colour 35mm and 120 work processed and scanned.
Thanks for the comment and the lab recommendations! I've only ever worked with CHS 100 in roll film formats but loved how it developed in Pyrocat HD (my go-to B&W).
Really appreciated the cost breakdown! I guess I'm really lucky in Portland to pay half of those average lab costs for just development... I've been nervous about committing to all of those upfront costs but I definitely shoot enough b&w to warrant DIYing.
One thing I didn't mention in the video was how easy it is to accumulate the tools over time. You can always spread out the purchases adding one thing at a time to your darkroom setup.
I think B&W Home Processing is worth it. It is a simpler process with great customization in the operation. (Push/Pull + Dev Combos)
I am undecided on the Color Home Process. The chemicals are relatively expensive, and the lab services are not that much more in comparison. And the "Cookie Cutter" Operation makes it more consistent.
It's a tough balance to strike, and I'm still not 100% sold on DIY processing C41. As for E6, there's a regional lab I love whose prices are very reasonable.
Great breakdown Mat and very interesting what it all costs - never given it a thought before ;)
I do batch developing - save all my exposed film so I can spend a day processing 20+ sheets 4x5. This allows me to process all the FP-4 then all the Fomapan and whatever stocks I'm using in batches and batch the N+1 sheets together too. Just means I should be patient after a day out shooting.
Currently my fridge has about 25 sheets exposed C-41 waiting but for these I'll wait until I have a few more as I'll mix a batch of chems and do them all before dumping the chems.