Sanic Hegehog Gossip from a spoiled kid? Provide facts instead of lying about free government of Catalunya! Own language, own educational & law system! You are obviously unable to judge reality! Why..? Brainwashed like in North Korea?
For money ,power or fame or supremacy in the society contact the Illuminati and achieve the dreams you want just whatsapp us on +13478717637 THE SEVEN COMMANDMENT YOU NEED TO KNOW 1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason. 2.The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions. 3.One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone. 4.The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own. 5.Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs. 6.People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and resolve any harm that may have been caused. 7.Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word Show less
There are five more regions in Spain with a distinct language, and the remaining eleven have also distinct cultures and history. We have seventeen regional governments with a huge level of autonomy, so Spain is a country of countries, a nation of nations. No standard Spanish identity exists like in Portugal or Denmark, where all of the citizens are culturally homogeneous. Madrid should embrace all those differences, and of course they shouldn't try to ban them. But the problem here is that pro independence movements only make noise when things go wrong. The peoples of Spain has been in a relative harmony since 1978, but with the 2008 crisis, Catalan pro independence movements suspiciously started to rise. Oh come on, not only Catalonia is different from the rest of Spain, all of the regions are different, and even if they joined forces on the fifteenth century, all of them kept their distinctions in harmony. Everybody knows that what's happening in Catalonia this days is moved by money and selfishness, they have no reasons to say that their culture is being killed when Catalan is an official language there (same in Galicia with Galician), their schools are in Catalan (same in the Basque Country with Basque), and they never had the freedom they have today to express theirselves. We are stronger together. Of course, when Spain won the Euro 2008 and 2012, and the 2010 World Cup, Catalans were all Spanish.
I am in agreement that this whole secession movement is a government grift that will bring the people nothing but uncertainty and false hope. Never trust the government. As an American, I can speak to this firsthand.
Well, the non idependent do not need to show their flags, that makes a massive differenc, but it was an exception, and that was back in smer 2010 (futbol world cup), and trust me, you have never seen even half of the independent catalan flags in Barcelona for a whole month like Spanaird flags about that time, and I witness all as I lived in Barcelona in different times of my life.
if the central government is so sure that there is most people will vote against independence, then why not allow the referendum? From where I'm sitting, they look like they're shit scared. The decision for a region to go independant should be made by the people of that region, and no one else.
Because like in FRANCE, GERMANY, THE UNITED STATES, ITALY and so on, the Constitution forbids it. Go ahead and ask for a FREE BRETAGNE, FREE CALIFORNIA (OR SOUTH CAROLINA) OR A FREE VENETTO.
Oh, no, let's screw the Constitution and do just as we please... Today will be territorial integrity, but maybe tomorrow we decide to "legally" pursue people because of their political and religious views... Indeed, a Constitution's just an old piece of paper with no value nor purpose...
Because it is illegal, as simple as that. Even if there was a clear majority, a referendum should not take place, a crime, even if it is supported by many (with cheap sentimental arguments) still is a crime. Obeying the law is the main pillar of democracy, and the law (La Constitución) was voted by the Catalans themselves.
Because Spain like the United Kingdom is an artificial entity made from true kingdoms and ethnic states. If Cataluña goes, then perhaps, the Basque Country, then Galicia. Who knows maybe even the more integrated provinces like Extremadura… Spain isn’t called a federation, but in practice it is. It isn’t one unified folk like the Portuguese are.
@@itsyeboibangersheesh actually the people's will being unobstructed is the main pillar of democracy, and you're specifically saying "F*ck you" to that"
They didn't want this when Spain economy was good. The Independentist spirit on Catalonia is fueled mostly by huge egoism, a lot of populism, unhealthy nationalism and a shameless manipulation of history.
Goodnightmoon Exactly.. They even argue they'll happily either leave or stay with EU & enjoy free market possibilities. Leaving Spain means leaving EU & begging for membership. Spanish veto, and their future wealth is down the drain..! While no business nor production can compete with extra taxes, forcing otherwise successful production leaving to Spain or France, or take the full step & head for China.. Such important practical issues completely ignored or manipulated by these brainwashed identity freaks..
Alot (not this many) wanted to leave Spain, or at least they thought themselfs as Catalans first and Spanish second, you can even look videos of Pep Guardiola speaking on the subject long before the 2008 crisis. The crisis did INDEED helped and ignite even more the movement and the austerity helped too (One of the great Merkels contributions for the "United" Europe), not to mention, the younger Generation now is older, and have more a political conscience. So it was just a matter of time until this happened, this didnt happen by magic all of the sudden. And for the next generation of Catalans, being raised by the current ones, the movement will be even bigger. But indeed the Economical crisis helped creating the current situation. Well if they do leave, sure they will have to aplly to enter the EU, but i can see they enter easily. If micro states like Luxembourg exists, and in the EU why wouldnt Catalonia enter (with one of the main european cities in it), and being European, with european culture and a former memever, why wouldnt the EU let them in? And even if the Catalans dont get their independence now, and Spain stays unified, the Country needs a reform, turning maybe in a Federation, for example, if Madrid let the constitucional reform in 2010 for the language status, would be a start.
You should have pointed out that every single member of the regional Catalonian government has a higher salary than its counterpart in the central government (the Spanish government). We are talking of a difference up to 60% depending on the position. We are talking about more than 200 Catalonian government employees getting better paid than the Spanish Prime Minister. Now go talk about oppression!
I never said they shouldn't be independent. Why are you assuming that? What I can't stand about them is all the lies they've been telling for years, trying to convince the world they are some kind of victims. Yeah, "oppression" my balls...
George Zee I was curious as to why you bring it up, seeing as it seemed to me to have no real relevance as to whether Catalonia should be independent. And, judging by your response, it doesn't.
Oh, yes, it's quite relevant since it's very telling about their strange way of perceiving reality. They keep talking about oppression when there's none. They want independence so they don't need to share their money? Ok, that's totally fine, but please don't try to disguise your situation like something else. It's actually offensive to people that are truly living under oppressive nations.
George Zee I'm pretty sure oppression can take many forms, for instance, linguistic oppression, cultural oppression, stopping a large group of people from being self governing by sending in police to fire rubber bullets at crowds. I'd say this is quite oppressive. But, anyway, the only thing that is relevant to this discussion for anyone living outside of Catalonia is whether or not the people of Catalonia want to be independent.
@@Spanish_Patriot Hmmm, so that's why the Spanish Supreme Court declared that Catalonia's universities must have 25% of their classes in Spanish? :/ That sounds close to what Canada done to the natives.
I wonder if Catalunya would let Barcelona vote for its independence after Catalunya becomes independent, as it is the wealthiest region in Catalunya and where there's the biggest proportion of non-independent people.
:/ Well, did the US allow West Florida to be independent after 1776? Unfortunately, independence is somewhat hypocritical; the state of California cannot be independent, but Cuba can be.
Yet another youtube video blatantly missing the key stone and basic foundation of the whole issue. The spanish constitution doesn't allow for a regional referendum about independence. No negotiation between government and nationalists can have that on the table, for the government doesn't have the right, nor the power, to agree on something inconstitutional. The independentists PERFECTLY know that. Only to demand for EXACTLY such a referendum and settling for nothing else. A change of the Spanish 1978 constitution (which has been on the table for years now because it's widely aknowledged that there's a dire need to update it) to modify it and modernize it opens the way for negotiations that might end up in changing the constitutional rules about regional independence referendums for exceptional cases. Thus potentially opening the way for a LAWFUL, LEGIT, referendum like the one the independentists claim to want. The independentists know that aswell- yet they aren't interested in taking part in any such negotiations. Nor they're interested in waiting for any constitutional reformation that might legitimate them to hold such a referendum. They wanted the referendum NOW, when it's illegal and anticonstitutional and the government has to actively act against it. Because it's not in their interest in waiting for it to be legal, much less to take part in the negotiations to legitimate it. Because their plan is not independence. Their plan is to destroy Spain and proclaim independence as part of the destruction of the Spanish State. They're not interested in Catalonian independence: what they want is Catalonian independence at the cost of destroying Spain. They won't settle for anything less. And that explains their insane actions up to today, the next steps that will come next (self-proclaimed independence to force Spain into pretty much either instaurating a state of exception or collapse), and bring the whole constitutional order to the border of destruction. The essential truth of this is that the whole independentist movement is an excuse for the pro-independentist "parties" in catalonia, which for the most part are either hard left (those who come from what was formerly known as Republican Left of Catalonia, ERC) or openly anti-system and neoanarchists (CUP) to attempt an open and decided attack against the foundation of the Spanish State: It's constitution. They're not interested in negotiating it's change. They're only interested in bringing it down, throwing the whole of Spain into legal oblivion as a result. They don't want a referendum to gain independence. They want to pretty much bring down Spain and force it's collapse, to then pick the pieces they want, and then proclaim their "independence" from the ruins of the destroyed building. Another factor missing is that the "independentist" movement they're talking about is not only based on anti-system principles, it's also fiercely and brutally antispanish. They take as much pride in their claimed "catalonian" identity as they take in hating anything spanish. It's hardly surprising, though, that they're actually more interested in seeing Spain collapse than in getting any independence. There's no authoritarian attittude coming from Madrid. IN any really serious self-respecting modern west country, those impostors, and that gang of coupists would've been trialled long ago. That to begin with. It'd be a riot to see those lot trying to pull this off in France. They would last exactly 5 minutes before being arrested. As for those who claim Spain is reacting in an opressing, authoritarian fashion: In a REAL authoritarian state, Catalonia would've been under the control of the Military for months now, under a state of exception (because what happened on sunday, 1st October, and is still ongoing, is nothing but a coup d'etat, and actually the Constitution allows for such extreme measures in such cases). Had the Spanish Government been interested in taking any autoritarian, totallistic, approach, the streets of catalonia would've been WIPED OUT of manifestants last Sunday. There was no such thing (by far) The spanish state is trying to defend itself against a concerted, brutal, well designed and aimed, attack designed to pretty much bring it down and force it's collapse. If anything, the central government handling of the issue is being extremely soft and weak (mostly because of the political division we have right now here). The Constitution contemplates the action against a rebelling region in several articles, and one of them (Article 155, suspending autonomy in the region, dissolving the catalonian autonomic parliament and government and restituting all autonomic attribution to the central government for a limited time to act against things exactly like this) is long overdue being applied. But hasn't been called for yet - exactly for the reason of trying to avoid at any costs to give the image of the government acting as some kind of opressors (when they're just applying the LAW, something which EVERY state is pretty much expected, entitled and actually pretty much FORCED to do). The best part and the part this guys are constantly ignored, is that if this lot is allowed to get away with it, this will set a precedent that won't go amiss by others. The whole of Europe will be Balcanized in a couple of decades if this assholes are allowed to set such a precedent, because others (notably the antisystems who want to bring the whole foundation of the modern states based on the Rule of the Law down) will know what to do next. It's in the very best interest of anyone who wants to live in a civilized world that what's going on in Spain is stopped COLD. Otherwise we won't be the only ones thrown into oblivion...most of Europe will follow us into the black hole in a few years. The signs are there for everyone to understand them. But as long as the REAL agenda of those who're creating the huge circus Catalonia is right now is not aknowledged by everyone, and spread through the media for everyoone to understand what's truly at stake here, you'll be playing those guy's tune, and helping them in attaining their goals.
I do not know how close to reality your comment is, but I do see some very possible scenarios in it, and I do agree with you that what is happening in Catalonia must be stopped by any means without making any martyrs.
The only way to stop bullshit propaganda is just stating proper facts. Those guys would rip off any attempt to shoot their crap down pointing at even the slightest false statement they could find in posts like mine (even while themselves they're just spewing out mass bullshit.). A little insight that backs what I'm saying you can find here: elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/04/inenglish/1507104937_874487.html Which pretty much shows up to which point those guys are ready to resort to spewing BS in the international media, when none of it is real, but convinced that some will stick (and it's doing so). Or this: elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03/inenglish/1507025584_438952.html Which puts things in quite a perspective, in contrast of what those BS spewers are claiming in the international media.
Noone has invaded noone's house (well some of the proindependentists "okupas" who almost all are sided with the CUP do just that all the time, but hey, who cares, right?), noone's fkin anyone, and if anything is the spanish taxpayer who's keeping that woefully managed region afloat while having to repeatedly and daily hear how bad we are, how much we opress them and how awful Spain is. And know what?. We're about to have it with them. Do you know that they're by far the region that most spends on wellfare in spain and one of the most in europe while collecting well below the average, creating a huge deficit that's been a burden on SPAIN for years?. And of course you know they DO manage everything related with their own wellfare, don't you?. So they bankrupt their own wellfare system and once it's ruined, they come to Madrid to ask for the Central Government to pay for what THEY broke in the first place. Do you know how much money is being sent daily to Catalonia, even today, because even while they have all the tax collecting attributions in their region they don't have enough to pay neither doctors, policemen or firemen?. Do you know that in case of a cut off of that support, the Generalitat would have no money to pay even next month's wage of most of the public sector of Catalonia?. Do you know that Catalonia expect and "demands" Spain to pay a whooping 1750 million euros PER MONTH, for their old people's pension in case of a theoretical independence, because they don't have a cent to pay for that and their own wellfare system (which is managed 100% in catalonia itself by the Generalitat) is far from collecting even 75% of what's needed to keep it running?. Do you know that, right now, Spain is paying in excess of 1.630 milions PER MONTH to pay for the pensions of retired and old catalonians, because the Generalitat has not a fucking euro to do so, even while they're SUPPOSED to do it (as part as their economic attributions)?. (the spanish-hating independentists can go fuck themselves, btw, being independent means you pay for your own shit. Pensions too) Do you know that the Catalonian Healthcare system is hanging on a wire, and that wire is direct monthly money injections from the autonomic trust fund (established by the central government to help regions in economic problems) and the spanish ministry of economy? Do you know that the public television of Catalonia, TV3, has a huge deficit, and while is a platform constantly used to spew independentist bullshit and lies against spain, if not directly nazi propaganda (you should see the kind of shit they emitted about the so-called "referendum") is paid for with public taxpayer money? Do you know that the Catalonian independentists pretend their citizens to keep spanish nationality on top of catalonian? (as spanish citizens they'd be able to move freely within the EU, as Catalonians they wouldn't be able to go past the frontier without being subjected to all the customary duties and searches) (the spanish-hating independentists can also go fuck themselves, if they want to be catalonian, I'm all for it, but they no longer would be Spanish). Do you know that most public infrastructure in Catalonia is private-owned (From the AP-7 highway to most of the high speed infrastructure in the region), and that the companies who own the rights are all fleeing the place in a hurry? Do you know that an independant catalonia would be immediately out of the EU, with all the brutal consequences? (even while the independentists have been stating the opposite for years now, and the EU has warned literally dozens of times about it) Do you know that every big business operating on Catalonia is nowadays fleeing from the territory because of the impending economic catastrophe if the Spanish money is gone to keep the sinking ship afloat? (Caixa, Sabadell, CaixaBank, Gas Natural, Mediolanum, Freixenet, etc, and more are to follow) which both means that those entities would no longer pay taxes to the Catalonian Generalitat? (BTW you DO know that it's the catalonians who collect their own taxes, don't you?). Of course all of them have stated they'll return once the status of Catalonia as integral part of Spain is certified. Wow. Do you know that such a mass-migration of businesses as the one that was kickstarted two days ago is the tip of the iceberg, for the announced intentions of foreign investors to immediately withdraw from Catalonia in the event of an independentist coup and secesion. Do you know the big industrial centers of SEAT (owned by VW who has already stated the second Catalonia goes independent, the second they close the factories there) closing down, alone, would immediately leave more than 15.000 people without a job, plus all the shockwave effects on subsidaries, services, etc of the region?. Do you know that the Catalonian agricultural sector (which ironically, is fiercely proindependence) has subsisted on EU subsidies alone?. Do you know that none of them would survive even a few months without those subsidies?. Do I have to repeat Catalonia would be instantly out of the EU the second it secedes? Do you know that Catalonia has an economy rating below that of Zambia?. Do you know that they'd be unable to operate in the international debt market because their rating is equal to trash, and that their intention is to try and avoid that by making Spain pay for their own shit? (so much for independence, right? And again, the spanish-hating independentists can pretty much fuck off for all I care, but they won't see a cent of spanish money). Finally, do you know Catalonia is integral part of a full-fledged, western, modern, democracy, which is both aknowledged and recognized as such by everyone?. Meanwhile noone will ever recognize an seceded independent catalonia through a coupd'etat. They've tried to secure that recognition. Thus far their only success was Maduro's Venezuela...and Cambodia. But Yeah, man, we spanish, the ones who literally are preventing them to go into oblivion by paying for their mismanagements, are just scum entering their house and fucking their women. Literally, your own words. Get lost. You have no idea of what Catalonia is actually like, and how much is costing us all spanish citizens to help them recover from a miserable economic bankrupcy they created themselves (Again the degree of economic control the Catalonian autonomic government has over itself is UNEQUALLED worldwide by any other region, federal, autonomic, or not) We're more than happy, all, to do it, with and for catalonian people who're law abiding citizens, who're hard working people who've been subjected to pisspoor corrupt proindependentist regional governments for years (though in the end, it was themselves putting those in power, but still), who feel Catalonian and Spanish, or even Catalonian alone. We're more than happy to do it for those who are independentists ,but don't hate Spain. but for the the spanish-hating independentists that hold Catalonia hostage right now?. Those can very much fuck off my nation and take their region with them. It's not even 2.5 million people in a region that has 7.500.000 inhabitants, to begin with, so once the other 5.000.000 leave (they'll be more than welcome in the rest of a country that loves and appreciates them), and once all the big businesses have flown away from the disaster (again, they'll be more than warmly received and invited to establish themselves elsewhere they want in Spain) they can have their own shit anarchist party going and see how far it takes them before they start killing each other. Because let's not forget, the ones who're pushing this forward are mostly left-hardliners (ERC, and the regional franchise of Podemos which is nothing but a neo-communist party led by someone that would make Lenin proud) and the CUP (anarchists and antisystems who only want to destroy democracy). The last time those two groups lined up together they ended up mass killing each other, how do you expect they'll manage if given another try?. They can do all that. They can have it. A lot of us spanish people are so tired of them that we're past the point of wanting to have to deal with their constant ,repeated, nonstop bullshit, hate, lies, crap, and debts. But if they do get it, they get it alone. Spain won't pay for their bollocks, no matter how they delude themselves that we'll accept to do so, so once they're poor as rats and have nowhere to go, no work, no healthcare, no pensions, no economy and begin punching each other as they inevitably will, they remember the days where they were yelling "Spain robs us".
The comment you are answering to is totally right. No way to negotiate without a legal route. The first step would be to change the constitution (which it should have been done decades ago but our politians are too afraid to do it). I want Catalan people to vote because it is a right for being in a democratic state, however they cannot make a referendum which implies division of "Spanish State" because of the Constitution Law. It is as simple as this. I guess and I want to believe that most of Spanish people doesn´t like what policeman did, neither the worng aproach from media about all what is going on. I don´t want to believe that most of Spanish wouldn´t let Catalan to vote. But the point is that the protest should go against National Goverment in order to change the constitution and by a national referendum elect a new constitution which gives a new framework of Spain as a State to work and improve as country. And I hope that new constitution will be a tool to improve the union among all people in Spain. I don´t think Catalonia is out, mentally and emotionally, from Spain but from the actual Goberment which for almost 8 years have done nothing to ensure a peaceful status inside Spain. After the option of referendum by law will be a available one then we can talk about why they want them to be independent. But first of all, Constitution must be changed.
the comment I was answering to is full of shit. As simple as that, and the post pretty much explains why. Beyond that, there's no constitutional change possible when the independentists REFUSE to take part in a negotiation about it. They've been offered that negotiation dozens of times in the last 5 years (first time in 2012, last time merely a week before the so-called "referendum"), time after time they've plainly stated they don't want constitutional modifications, that they want an illegal anticonstitutional referendum NOW. Well, that they can't have, and that they won't have, and no matter how many times they repeat the lie that they had one last Sunday, they didn't have one (what happened last Sunday was many things, but a referendum wasn't one of them). As for the "first step would be to change the constitution"...I'll copy/paste an answer I gave to someone else when explaining the key cornerstone differences between the scottish case and the catalonian one. Beware. It's LONG: ------------- The spanish constitution DOES NOT allow for regional independence referendums. No State, nor government, can, neither intentionally or unintentionally, engage in decisions, activities, negotiations nor concessions that frontally oppose it's own constitution. If an Executive does so it'd be immediately called off by the Spanish Constitutional Court, which was instituted with the express purpose of overwatching the central and autonomous executives from engaging in just that, and the decision immediately overturned. And before you argue about changing the spanish constitution, it's the way it is for VERY good reasons: First: that particular passage of the Constitution is very similar (in most parts virtually identical) to that of almost every other modern country out there and in fact it's less restrictive than some of them ,which simply don't even contemplate any secession mechanisms at all (The Spanish Constitution has mechanisms that allow for regional secessions. They're not easy to achieve, but the mechanisms exist. A LOT of modern nations don't have anything like that, and we don't need to go very far: the US constitution, for instance, it's a legal, final, binding, union, where secession is simply NOT possible through any legal means, period.) Second: NO country in the world includes any kind of constitutional right for any part of it's sovereignty to singlehandedly engage in a process of secession on a whim, just because a regional, not statewide, referendum is hold and the results are positive. *None*. The potential results of a constitution that allows for that might end up in catastrophic scenarios, as the OP of this thread stated, the proclamation of a Califate in a particular small area (nations don't need to be very big, just look at Monaco) of a nation with heavy muslim immigration concentrated in a very focused area of it's geography. Not to mention the mess and constant insecurity that would cause on the international investors to invest in a given region of a country that they don't know if in a couple months will have a stroke of genius and decide that they want to go their own merry way. Any state with a Constitution that allows for that kind of shenanigans will attract no foreign investors at all, will have atrocious debt ratings, and would be economically inviable in the short-medium term as a result. Third: Even while keeping in mind what I stated avobe, such a change can't and won't happen until all political forces in spain (ALL of them, independentists included, because ALL have to accept it and abide by the agreed changes) sit down and engage in a constitutional process. There's been actually talks of a constitutional reform for years in Spain (the 1978 one is getting outdated in several ways). But we've been hostages of those who today are coupists for years. There's a definite problem here, and that is that, as any other western nation, the sovereignty of Spain resides on it's people. It's WHOLE people. This country is ours. of all of us. If suddenly a minority decides to take a part of whats everyone's, then everyone has a say in wether they can have it or not. What they can't do is to decide to take it on their own, because it's as theirs as ours, and we are more. In any civilized democracy, the majority decides. And if the majority says "no", and they don't like it, well, too bad, they still can't have it. Is part of the reality of living in a modern democracy, and not 1990 Yugoslavia. and herein lies the main difference you're looking for. The Sovereingty (hence, ownership) of Spain resides in all the spanish people. Hence, Catalonia (as much as the rest of the country) belongs to ALL the spanish people. Mark this on your mind, because this is the core of it: I'm spanish. As such, Catalonia is as much my home as it is any independentist dude's. The same way he owns a share on the rest of Spain wether he likes it or not. So ,by principle, he has no right to tell me that's not part of my home anymore because he has decided to have it that way. He can ask me if I agree for him to take it as his exclusive property, and we'll decide together. That, yes, he can do. But not more than that. If I don't decide, alongside the rest of the spanish people, to agree with him, then no deal. Because, once again, Spain belongs to every spaniard, not only him. The whole of it. And including Catalonia. (and if he says that's somehow unfair, I'm sorry, it's not unfair, is what the own catalonians decided in 1978 when by almost 91% of their own decision, they agreed to accept the Spanish Constitution). Any other proposal would be theft. You don't take stuff from others because you decide it suddenly is yours, right?. Well, same happens here. that's a basic foundation and principle shared by most modern countries and democracies of today, where the rule of law applies, and has a good reason to be that way. Because if it's any other way we'd have Yugoslavia all over again...but across whole continents. No goodie. ----that''s the text I pasted. Now I'll elaborate a bit further: There's a reasonable path that would hypotetically allow for a Catalonian referendum: a renegotiation of the current one that states that upon entering into validity, the Spanish people (as a whole) defer our collective sovereignty over Catalonia to the decision of those who live there, in a legally binding regional referendum, and that upon the result of that referendum the status of Catalonia would be either FINAL within the Spanish state, or FINAL as a seceded state. Said constitution would have to SPECIFICALLY mention that such an extraordinary measure is to be applied in that instance, and that instance only because, believe it or not, a Constitution that allows for anyone deciding he wants to have a go at declaring independence at any given time just because, is a BRUTAL mess for the reasons stated in the text avobe. And SUCH a constitution, if approved by referendum, would be a HUGE gesture of generosity of the spanish people towards those who for 40 years have wasted our money in propaganda shit as TV3, bankrupted their own autonomic economy and costed us ALL (because we're all owners of it, let's not forget) dozens of thousands of millions of euros because of their wasteful policies. And above all that, towards all those who have called us, and labelled us as thiefs, scum, fascists, opressors, repressors, shitty, lazy, and the long etcetera you perfectly know those guys have lobbed our way. If they want to earn that generosity they can't do it worst than what they're doing it: By deadlocking any constitutional debate by PLAINLY REFUSING to take part in it, by staging coup d'etats to destroy Spain, by insulting us on a daily basis, by bullying people who feel spanish in the streets of Catalonia, etc They're not doing a good job, are they?. THEY HAVE TO EARN THAT GENEROSITY, and right now they threw every bit of it to the ditch by what they're doing and what they're labelling us as in the international media. but there's the way. The LEGIT way. The LEGAL way. It exists. Staging coup d'etats, engaging in regionwide insurrection, insulting us, engaging in mass-lying to the media to falsely accuse Spain of being violent towards them, treating our police as terrorists while extorting those who give them a place to stay with coward threats, etc , is NOT the legit way. But they're interested only in the illegal way (they know that quite likely they'd lose the legal way, as the last regional elections showed). Because they don't want independence. They want to destroy Spain, to then pick the falling pieces and declaring them independent. Finally I won't be the one to express admiration for a government that I think is MANY things, none of them good (from incompetent, corrupt to incapable - but so it is every other political party in Spain politics nowadays so nothing new). But to state that for 8 years they haven't been interested in a "peaceful" solution to this, isn't true. First, because 8 years ago the current government wasn't in power to begin with (it was still the nefarious days of ZP). And second because, as I stated, since 2012 they've called the Catalonian Independentists to present a Constitutional change that allows for their demands. Something that the independentists, I insist, have stoutly, repeatedly and continuously REFUSED to do (from the "referendum or referendum" of Mas, up to the "we will proclaim the unilateral declaration of independence next week" of Puigdemont) yes, there's been a side here which didn't want to negotiate. No, it wasn't the central government.
Also, all of Spain has the right to decide if Catalonia can be independent or not. The US had an entire war (Civil War) about this, and the entire country should have a say in this.
Nobody has inherent "rights", if they did then everyone would have them and it's clear and obvious that everyone does not. Rights are recognized in onr of two ways: 1. No one challenges them. 2. Those claiming rights have the ability to protect them from those who challenge them. I do believe that people have the moral authority to determine their own destiny, or moral authority to exercise sovereignty. But this isn't a right, if it were Palestinians would not be occupied by Israelis. The only reason America has the right to self-govern is because we won a war against Great Britain. The reason the South does not have a right to self-determination is because they lost the war to the Yankees. If the wishes of the majority are not recognized through peaceful democracy they will be fought for in a violent and justified Civil War.
Jaafer Irfan Your argument supports slavery. If one group of people have the moral authority to determine, by majority vote, the destiny of another group of people then they could vote to enslave them. People have the moral authority to determine their own destiny not the destiny of others. Rights are a different thing all together and are determined by the ability to protect/enforce them.
That's a state where nobody plays with the GOV. In Romania we are rug to any minority, A country where the majority is discriminated and has no rights that's Romania. Spain can send tanks into a minority and everyone is belly up. Respect!
If they are mad about not getting money back in services that shouldn't be a reason for wanting independence. California goes through the same; California pays more taxes than it gets back, but this is because the system is designed to help the regions where people are doing worse.Russian love this kind of divisive situations and they help fund political campaigns. Europe is more powerful when it is together breaking Europe makes it easy for Russians to destabilize.
Oh spare me the bullshit neocon propaganda. You do realize that Russia has many investments inside the EU right? If the Euro were to be dissolved and the EU to break up, the Russian economy would collapse completely. The EU leadership brought their problems on themselves by removing all borders. The migrant crisis is tearing Europe apart. Russia had nothing to do with that. George fucking Soros is the real threat. He has done more to destabilize Europe than Russia could ever hope to do.
adriaNotfun California doesn't pay a higher % in federal taxes. They pay higher state taxes than anyone else. But u have to remember California uses more federal resources than any other country. Large industries that pay 0 federal taxes & get millions back in taxes. Also California business like Elon musk borrow billions of federal tax dollars.
Douchenbag 6969 exactly couldn't agree more buddy most people never heard of George Soros but he's one mean little bastard there more big players as well like Goldman sacks and the Rothschild's all are evil scum.
Spain always proclaims to have a clear majority against independence, but they always reject a referendum. Winning the referendum will provide them with legitimacy, instead they clearly show they're afraid of losing as Independence is boosting election after election (52% of vote to pro-independence parties in last catalan parliament elections.
The Spanish Constitutional Court would likely hold that such referendum is unconstitutional under article 2 of the Spanish Constitution, making it legally impossible
There are other reasons that do not appear in this video. For instance. - Current Spanish institutions were created by fascists - and current ruling party (PP) rejects to condemn the Franco era crimes. - Still, Current Spanish institutions have inherited many corrupt practices form the Franco era, such a influence peddling, weak separation of powers. - Current ruling Spanish party PP only gets 10%-20% of popular vote in Catalonia. Catalonia and the rest of Spain vote extermely different in many issues, but we still have to implement laws from Spain that don't represent the Catalan voters. - Many Catalan laws are turned down by the Spanish Constitutional Court. Laws that were made to protect people from poverty have been turned down recently. Correction: 10bn is the Spanish official data, but it's 16bn according to many estimations. This means basically working for 2 months each year and giving away all your salary. Finally, if the Spanish government was so confident that most catalans do not want independence, they could issue a non-binding consultation in Catalonia. That's fully Constitutional. They don't do it because they think they might lose, they prefer not to debate but to send thousands of policemen and treat us like criminals.
Well that may be so. But, when you dress in black and lit things on fire, destroying public property. You then are criminals. You're giving the government official reason to deploy riot police. Very stupid on the Catalan's part.
America started a war when one of its regions decided to have their own independence. Compared to that, Spanish government actions was extremely civil. People like to play the victim card. Also Spain took these assholes from third world countries levels in 70s to advanced rich nations. But now they all are biting the hand that fed them for so long. Typical dogs. Another point, Spain will never let catalonia enter Europe. The same way Greece blocked Turkey's membership for so long. Their so called soccer team will vanish as a mass exodus of players would occur. And Spain may never trade with them. Hence catalonia's only trading routes would be the Mediterranean. It may be that catalans would suffer hunger.
Note Jay At the very beginning of the war the Confederate government (The rebels) started raising up state militias and forming their own army, even firing upon military bases still loyal to the Union government. Pretty different issue, but a better analogy would be that it's illegal to secede if the Constitution does not allow for it. Just like the South seceded illegally due to not having the permission of the US government, Catalonia is attempting to secede illegally due to not having permission from the Spanish government.
Greeting From Free Man Armenian 2 Catalonia whatewer you deside we support you brothers and sisters I hope Spain understand and better make picfull wey of will off Catalonians again hug 🤗 basquies peopel ✌️
This is as simple as it can be. If you want a weak Spain and a weak Europe you'll want independence. If you want war and riots and conflicts you'll want independence. If you want *extremist* arabic groups rubbing their hands satisfied then you'll want independence. If you want to create even more instability to Europe you'll vote independence. We are stronger united. Together. That's my opinion. Right or wrong that's what I think. History tells us how it was like when we were divided.
So in this way every rich province or a region or a city in a country should secede from its mother country because they have to pay more taxes? The rest of the country is poor naturally the money would go to those who need it. It shouldn't be going to those who already well off. The union always benefits
Maybe after independence, the rest of Spain would start to question the Corruption of Franco's bastard children in madrid, where fraud of the publc purse is the norm.
United We Stand Divided We Fall... Something the most prosporous country in the world lives by... Well the majority of people here live by. If you want to fight for independence that's fine, but don't think for a second that it is justified. America is what it is today because it had a just cause. A cause that everyone of all religions and cultures and ethnic groups could live together united, and we can fight against an unfair oppresive king. What do the catalonians have? Their taxes aren't going toward public services? Spain is anything but oppressive and just because your going through rough times doesn't mean you can't stick it together and get through it united. That is why the American Cival War started, no one could diplomatically come to a referendum. Don't make the same mistake we did all those years ago, you'll just destroy and kill the things you stand for and the people you love, breaking families apart, forever divided untill the day you die.
Also, if 70% are going to vote (fairly good turn out) and 41% vote yes, given that the two percentages are out of the same total, you have a strong majority for the yes vote. Stop manipulating information.
Thomas Lampon-Masters what they're saying is the vote doesn't speak for the whole. Catalonians will regret this decision especially if they make Spain an enemy. I'm not even from there, but from what I've seen they're better ways, stand, think and change things. Don't run back when you meet an obstacle, fucking tackle it. And I could've helped if they asked for my help. But I'm an idiot to them.
The Playable CEMU you seem full of hate. Not my problem. I'm not even from there but it's just clear to see what's happening. If barely more than half of voters decide an election, the result doesn't justify the people's cause. I'm sure the govt in Catalonia will want this way more than the people.
Like I said to someone else, most of the population wants a referendum not independence. Meaning that they just want more public services that they should be getting. Just because the numbers look different doesn't mean it isn't true or false.
Violently oppressing the people will only fuel their desire for independence and that will spiral into violence. Spain should give them what they want, a referendum. It can be held two years from now, buying time for the Spainish government to convince Catalonia to stay with spain.
Specially for Portuguese an Dutch people: We lost the 1640-1652 (when we proclaimed the Catalan Republic) and 1705-1714 wars with Castile. Portugal took advantage of the 1640 rebellion in Catalonia and won the independence. Had Portugal lost the war, they would be in the same situation as us: even if you can vote, your votes are merged with the much numerous Castilian votes, so you can't decide your future. The same is true for Netherlands: so occupied fighting in Catalonia, in 1648 finally Spain gave up and recognised your independence. In 1713, in the Treaty of Utrecht, you abandoned us, altought we were defending a parliamentary system and laws so similar of yours. It would be nice you remember this and help us now.
The principle of territorial integrity constitutes a basic element of contemporary international law. This is a principle that is laid out as a limit to any secessionist pretension that rests on criteria other than those of negotiation with the state in question. By the same token, the right of peoples to self-determination, expressly recognised in the Charter of the United Nations, is only permitted in certain very specific circumstances: former colonies; peoples annexed by conquest, foreign domination or occupation and peoples oppressed by massive and flagrant violations of their human rights. The exercise of these rights must be done in accordance with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations and the other principles of international law that regulate the matter, including, in this regard, the principle of territorial integrity. In summary, it is a right that is not applicable to Catalonia. Constitutions do not accept the right to secession. It is a constant in comparative constitutional law confirmed by the pronouncement of the High Courts of the countries concerned (Supreme Court of the United States, Supreme Court of Canada, among others). In the case of Spain, the Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards, and the right to secession is not only not contemplated in our Supreme Law, the constituent legislator expressly rejected the motion put by Deputy Letamendia in the sense of expressly recognising a right to self-determination of the peoples of the state that allowed them to choose between continuing to form part of Spain or forming an independent state (265 vote against, 5 votes in favour and 11 abstentions). A constitutional reform that entails a substantial change in the model of state must be the product of a decision taken by the Spanish people, where national sovereignty resides, and in accordance with the procedures set forth in the Constitution itself. Nobody denies the possibility of amending the Constitution: only a few nationalists and secessionists deny it, because they deny that right to the citizenry as a whole, demanding that only a few be entitled to exercise it. All citizens are entitled to participate in political affairs, not just some of them.
Spain is a democratic country internationally recognized as such. Our constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation. Its ratification in 1978 was the result of a broad consensus across diverse parties, including the Catalan nationalists of Puigdemont’s party, and received support from over 90 percent of the Catalan voters in a referendum. Democracy is essentially dialogue, pact, and agreement. When a UNILATERAL POLITICAL ACTION IS PROPOSED THAT PURSUES AND END TO THE PACT, the agreement, in short, to coexistence, it is improper to talk of a democratic principle.
Im catalan and I dont want independence, and so the majority of catalans. We're the real ones that have been oppressed by the sepraratists ( like if u go outside with the Spanish flag they insult u, call u fascist and sometimes beat u up, really ) and ignored by the central government ( this is a big reason why many people who arent separatists vote Yes; how bad the central government is maniging the situation ). Separatists here are like feminazzis, they only tell fake facts, lies, manipulate children's minds and call for democracy and freedom but dont respect the opinion of other catalans or Spanish ones. And in the middle of this mess, here we are the indicisive silent majority.
Stand with CATALONIA! The people there should have the right to decide, which way they choose to go! I support CATALONIA to find their own FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE!
Here I am A black guy born and made in Catalonia who speaks Castellan (Spanish) and Catalan as a first (mother) language among many others languages... And I can tell you this; in school I was sort of indoctrinated to want independence. But, do I really want it? mmmmm. The problem for me and I think the majority of the Catalans, is that we want to have the right of self-determination to decide to be part of Spain or not. The PP had many opportunities to start talks with the Catalan government but they've wasted their chances, and have sort of alienated some Catalans that did not want independence/ Trump (TOO BAD)
did you experience a lot of bigotry being black in spain? being in america i dont know how blacks are treated in your region. also what brought your family there? thanks
SPORT Thx for clarification. It is obvious lots of arguments only theoretical identity issues involved. No one serves one logic argument proving serious discrimination from central administration. Some want to leave Spain & stay in EU which is impossible. Spain as rest of EU will decide. Others hate both, despite their wealth is completely dependent on free access to both markets. Obviously serious brainwashing from some ivory tower academics has huge influence on this movement..
infoguy1978 BLM organisation in Spain should be successful with so many ideological brainwashed youngsters! You'll momentarily observe how successful old fat disgusting white men has been arriving Europe.. Lots of reasons to hate these successful achievements!!
Were you also indoctrinated to see Spaniards from other regions as inferior or beneath you just because Catalonia is the wealthiest region? This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely curious.
infoguy1978 Ask yourself the same question... Did you? In a western Country? Of cause I did experience a lot of bigotry, but as a child I did not know what it was, I have to say though, I've really enjoyed my childhood! And as you grow up perceptions tend to change specially in this age we're living now. All my friends are white, I was the only black in my school, even now at the University (college), my friends still my friends and they treat me like one of them because we grow up together. So to put it very easy to you, I'm so much part of this culture that the only difference between my friends and I is the colour of my skin. In regards to my family question, unfortunately I won't be able to answer that question completely because that's a private matter, all I can tell you is this. There are also Africans Europeans not just Africans Americans, as I said before I speak many languages but none of them is African, they're all Europeans; English (British), French, Spanish (Castellan), Catalan, and German all as a native. The reason for that is because in the same way Africans Americans date back generations in the US, I too have a long black history in Europe, my family is spread all over Europe. My mother is a black Spaniard (Catalan) and my dad is French black, My grand parents form my mother side are Swiss blacks (Switzerland) and from my dad side British blacks, the list goes one .... Uncle Germans.... hope that answer your question. :)
Rudi Chinchilla Hace 1 segundo i AM FROM COSTA RICA AND I DEFFEND SPAIN. HOW COME YOU GUYS WHEN CATALONIA HAS ENJOYED A HIGH STANDARD OF LIVING YOU JUST WANT TO DENIAGRATE A COUNTRY WITH SUCH AN ILLUSTRIOUS PAST, A WONDERFUL DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM AND ONE THAT HAS CARED FOR YOUR REGION. WHY DON T YOU TELL EM HOW YOU D RATHER PAY ALL THE REGION S DEBT TO SPAIN THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS OBTAINED THROUGH THE EU? THE COUNTRIES OF EUROPE, IT S DAUGHTERS FROM LATIN AMERICA, LIKE MEXICO, ARGENTINA COLOMBIA AND MY COUNTRY WHICH HAS THE OLDEST DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM IN LATIN AMERICA, WE ALL OPPOSE YOU , WE RE CLEAR OF HOW YOU ACTED, CHEATING THE POLITICAL SYSTEM AND CHEATING SPAIN , YOU RE ONE OF A KIND POPULIST WHO JUST WANTS TO SPLIT THE COUNTRY , GET A SPOIL OF SPAIN, QUITE AN ENEMY TO SPANIARDS WHO WON T , I HOPE LET CATALONIA TO SECEDE BECAUSE IT WILL BRING ABOUT DETRIMENTAL CONDITIONS TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. SPAIN HAS POWER AND YOU KNOW IT . I HOPE IN THE END THE ARMY WILL TAKE OVER IF NECESSARY, MANY SPANIARDS I GUESS WANT IT THAT WAY THROUGH A REVOLUTIONARY PROCESS IF NECESARY. SOMETIMES WE NEED TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY EVEN IF NECESSARY BY GUNS. .TRY TO DO IT IN FRANCE OR ITALY OR GERMANY OR MEXICO,IF THEY LL LET YOU DO IT , BECAUSE THEIR CONSTITUTIONS DO NOT ALLOW IT. DO NOT YOU DO IT OF IN THE US, TRUMP WILL JUST DISAPPEAR YOU FROM THE EARTH OR CANADA WITH QUEBEC. YOU RE A DANGEROUS MAN, A POPULIST ,ANOTHER MADURO OR ORTEGA !!!!!
I am terribly SAD. I usually read The Economist to find out about how things are going on in other countries from around the world. Although I know that some obscure interests are always behind any media I have always deemed The Economist to be trustworthy in general, not in terms of opinion but in terms of how they state the facts. I just watched this video out of curiosity (being a Spaniard, I know the facts better). To my dismay, there are several INEXPLICABLE mistakes or omissions, two of them simply unacceptable: 1. Mistake: Catalonia has NEVER been an independent country (during the Reconquista, the COUNTY of Barcelona (much smaller than today's Catalonia) and the Kingdom of Aragon were unified under a single dynasty -by marriage- creating the Crown of Aragon in 1162; in 1469 another dynastic familial union took place, between the Crown of Aragon and the Crown of Castile, which led to what would become the Kingdom of Spain). 2. Omission: The binding referendum that the Catalan independence movement want to hold is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. These are facts and The Economist have deeply disappointed me - I will have to be much warier when reading them. PS: I am personally in favour of further talks to reach a compromise and I don't really mind Catalonia becoming independent if this is really the will of the majority.
It is hard to sympathize with this independence movement. The separatists want a full-blown state, a state of rules, and yet it does not want follow the rules of the state it belongs to, thinking it can get away with it. This means respecting the Spanish constitution and its courts, which means every resident of Catalonia is treated just like any other Spanish citizen, no more, no less. It already enjoys a high-degree of autonomy: its own parliament, control over security (Mossos) and use of the Catalan language. To say that it is the engine of the Spanish economy is just pure arrogance- without Spain and its membership in the EU, Barcelona and the rest of Catalonia would be a third-rate regional destination. No wonder, more than a year after the declaration of the so-called independence, not a single state in the world has recognized Catalonia as an independent state. It is part of Spain, and will remain the that way, period.
I don't even think the word referendum applies. First it's illegal: Not even the president of Spain has the authority to make a referendum in Catalonia: The spanish constitution forbids it. Then the president of Catalonia said last sunday in TV that a 25% participation would be enough for him, which means that half + 1 of that (a 12.5% of positive votes) would suffice him to declare the independence. The constitution of the catalans (the statut, voted by a big mayority) stablishes that in order to change its text you need a qualified mayority of two thirds, or a 66%. Now compare that to a 12.5% to make something as irreversible as an independence declaration. The fact that is illegal is of paramount importance: People against the independence WILL NOT PARTICIPATE in an illegal "referendum" and that makes it something different: a plebiscite where the only possible outcome is already decided. And yes... we have that sentimental, populist, marketing idea about "The right to decide" "everything should be open to vote". Well, I strongly disagree. Imagine, just imagine. A Village in Catalonia has a majority of radical muslim population and they invoke their utterly emotional "Right to Decide" to become an independent califate. They just want to vote!! Why do you think it is wrong ? It is because you don't decide upon everything. The limit is the rule of law. As Cicero said: "We are in bondage to the law in order that we may be free."
Javier Reyes why spain can't handle it like the UK did with scottland? I am not sure forcing a nation to be part of you is smart...they ll have no loyalty to spain
I think the "illegal" argument is rather weak. Laws are man-made and subjective, it's not because something is legal that it is right. In my opinion, independence should require 50% of the entire electorate (half of all eligible to vote) to cast their vote in favour of it rather than merely 50% of voters. In other words, if turnout is 85%, then for independence to be granted, 58.8% would need to vote for it. If turnout is 90%, then it's 55.5%, if turnout is 80%, then it's 62.5%. There needs to be a clear majority for something as irreversible as this.
First off, independence referendums should be given a special threshold of at least 66% in order to be passed, just to make sure entire regions don't break away from their motherlands just because the economy got a little hiccup. What are the ethnic Latvians gonna do when the Russians suddenly make up 51% of the Latvian population? Would they allow to be incorporated into Russia by means of a simple referendum?
@yarpen26 I agree there should be a higher threshold but 66% is arbitrary. Why not 60%? Why not 70%? That's why 50% of registered voters is a good measure. As for your Latvia example, a few things: - Why would Russians make up 51% of the country? The current share is less than half that. - It's simplistic to think that because 51% of a territory are Russians, they will necessarily vote to join Russia. - Who is Russian? These days, people mix and you'll never be able to pinpoint the exact ethnic make up of a country. - If a majority of people want to join Russia, why would you be against it?
Oh Latvia is nothing to worry about. The Latvian population is growing faster than the Russian one. Russians make up only 25% or something. And Latvian Russians consider themselves distinct from other Russians. They are loyal to Latvia. The EU has more than enough to deal with and will not bother with Catalonia. Plus the turnout was only 44%, and it was an illegal one. This referendum has no legitimacy at all. Sorry Catalonia. You ain't leaving Spain anytime soon. I guess you're stuck with eachother.
In Canada where Im from one of our biggest concerns when Quebec wanted to seperate was would our dominance in ice hockey sustain...would the spanish futbol team still be a powerhouse? Would a spain without Catalonia beat Portugal on a quest to regain the world title?
Depends on which players in their top 11 squad from barcelona area speaking catalonian. Beside I dont know why canada exists at first place, it should just join the usa
The argument is, la autodeterminación de los pueblos, or somehting like the right of the people to decide what they want. Even if I can agree with this statement, it's a contradiction. Let me explain it to you. Spain is a whole, catalunia is part of Spain , Catalunia can separete from spain(people can decide) good. Now, Catalunia is a whole, barcelona is part of Catalunia, barcelona can separete from catalunia (what???? no way). Why can't London have and independece referendum? Who decide who can and who can not?
Let say Scotland vote tomorrow and 51% decide to separate from UK, 1% is very few people and very easy that the change their mind. Would it be ok to call for another vote to join the UK again? The whole let's decide everything by voting is a flawed strategy and some leaders take advantange of it, and use it when people have some sentiment, but the thing is people change their mind a lot. Having huge and complicated decision made by uninform and passionated people is not allways the best
I support their right to choose their government, but I believe it's silly to think the region will be in much better shape on its own. Productivity won't increase because of it. Investments as a percentage of GDP probably won't too. They could choose a better path than Spain, but I don't think that will happen. In the end things would be more or less the same. And shame on Madrid for brutally repressing the people. If the gain is not this large for Catalonia, the loss is not that large for Spain too. All this stupid spanish ego shouldn't harm the people.
Great video! But I'd also like to see the possible consequences of this referendum for Catalonia itself. Because people who want independence usually have a hope for a better life, but they really don't realise the consequences that independence can bring: the process of international recognition of independence usually takes a big amount of time, as well as entrance in EU (Catalonia would lose their membership if it proclaims independence). So for a couple of years (at least) they would not be able to travel/work/study in EU and other countries which didn't recognise Catalonia as a state. Before voting each Catalan resident should ask himself if he's ready for this
I see what you're saying, but Catalans would be allowed to study and travel in other EU nations, but they would probably have to possess a Spanish passport, and they'll need to pay more fees to enter into a university. It's not discussed, but I'm hoping they have a plan for their national currency. The Catalan Dollar? If 90% of the voters want independence, it must mean even the older and wiser ones voted, just by that it's safe to assume they thought it through, I hope :/
Some catalans want independence because the spanish government has postponed many issues concerning to them for a long time; and now some catalan politicians are taking advantage of that to manipulate the population into a nationalist belonging and absolute rejection of everything outside catalonia. They have designed a master plan to reveal against the spanish government to the point that its so hard to explain what is really going on... not what the “official” sources (like this) say its happening but what really is happening. And in the meanwhile the Spanish government is useless and doesn’t know how to face this problem. At the end Spain will have to override the autonomous catalan government (art.155) which is their last resource and even greater tensions will appear. Not to say that Puigdemont is not even going to jail for his great crimes. Once again, the population is manipulated and divided by selfish politicians who don’t do their job (administrate their territory and reach agreements to make things work in the best way). So sad.
This is not an act of democracy. Acts of democracy are taken every 4 years by voting our government. Government promote changes of laws which are fixed in the Spanish parliament. There is a way to get the independence of Catalonia, but never by acting alone by themselves. Question 1: What happen if a town of Catalonia doesn't want to be independent? Catalonia government will allow them to remain part of Spain? ... Really? Question 2: What happen if the small town where I live, decides to be independent too, arguing that they consider themselves as a different town/country/state? Makes it any sense? Would they have the same rights as Catalonia people? Why not? I recognize that Catalonia has their own culture and therefore, their own identity. But it is perfectly compatible with being part of Spain. I am Canary, I have my own culture and I do not consider that Spain is damaging my identity. Why the need of being an independent country? Is it all about money? Sure not? Moreover, I strongly think that for having a better world, humans have to be more connected between each others, globalization not only in the markets but also for fighting against global injustices for human rights, or by promoting global climate laws, for example. To conclude, last but not least, a stupid thought: If I am A, if I am sure and happy of being A, I do not need to break up with B. I do not need even to fight against B if I am sure... and happy... and SAFE... of being what I am. This is just my opinion.
Could someone tell me exactly which section of freedom does the rest of Spain restrict to Catalonia? What right is that one, that is being denied? Which action of their life is forbidden by the police? Are the given privileges at the expense of the other regions, due to nationalist blackmail, not enough spoil? Two considerations: 1. Only half of the population voted for secessionist parties, from which not all would agree with a truly eventual secession. Stop generalizing so simply. 2. Its not a Catalonia vs Spain thing, dont confuse terms. Catalonia is essentially Spain, its a part of the whole. If you removed cooper from bronze, it wouldnt be called bronze anymore. You cant just refer to them as separated entities. Stop confronting terms and the people behind those terms. Considering this, my question is: is the so called "freedom" revindicated in this video suggesting that a 40% of the catalans has the right to steal a piece of Spain to the rest of catalans and to the rest of spanish? Is this suggesting the dictature of the minority above the majority?
Unfortunately, most people outside of Spain don't see it that way. They get most of their information from the media, where's the separatists are portrayed as rightful freedom fighters and Spain as the bad oppressor. Of course everyone is rooting for the underdog and many people want them to get independence for no other reason, they don't even want to look at the bigger picture of what the consequences of that action will be and that Spain as a country could even break apart if the Catalan separatists succeed, which would give other separatist movements in Spain more momentum and power.
While I think declaring independence would be kind of dumb, holding the referendum was the right thing to do. By holding this referendum Catalonia set a trap for the Spanish government, which they walked right into. It's a no-win situation for the Spanish government. Even if they win they lose.
This is a ruse. Secession is about turning it into an Islamic Republic. For a short time, Catalans may have a sense of victory and the illusion of independence. But the huge sums of money that Qatr and Saudi Arabia are devoting to this project - along with the money from Soros-backed groups - this money will quickly bring about total capitulation to Islam, submission to Sharia, eradication of liberty.
Peng rivers, Yes, officially Catalonia is part of Spain at the moment, but what we are hoping for is to be able to live independently from Spain, the same way Denmark, Holland, Finland, etc are doing. We Catalans have strived for this for many years. Hopefully we can finally attain this dream.
Peng rivers, Yes, officially Catalonia is part of Spain at the moment, but what we are hoping for is to be able to live independently from Spain, the same way Denmark, Holland, Finland, etc are doing. We Catalans have strived for this for many years. Hopefully we can finally attain this dream.
There should be a non binding vote approved by both sides in order to reflect the true number of Catalan people in favor of independence. I personally feel its between 45 and 55% really want to break away and the sentiment is at an all time high but we cant know without a vote. Spain is being hypocritical in that they dont even want a vote whether it is binding or not because they know that worst case scenario more than 40% will vote yes and they dont want to have to negotiate anything related to an autonomous Catalonia. So what they do is refuse to participate essentially sabotage attempts to hold a state approved vote and than when things go forward they want the right to say they never approved it. Its classic diversion technique so Catalonia can not only never break free but not even hold a vote.
Alberto Zambrano No, that's a fallacy. The idea of not seceding because then there would be a sequence of secessions sithin secessions is bogus. Catalonia has a clearly defined identity based on language and culture and this is the basis for a discussion on secession. It is not a whimsical desire to secede.
The argument is, la autodeterminación de los pueblos, or somehting like the right of the people to decide what they want. Even if I can agree with this statement, it's a contradiction. Let me explain it to you. Spain is a whole, catalunia is part of Spain , Catalunia can separete from spain(people can decide) good. Now, Catalunia is a whole, barcelona is part of Catalunia, barcelona can separete from catalunia (what???? no way)
If they all have the same identity, they all will vote to leave, and most polls show that Barcelona will probably vote to stay. Culture is a very generic term, and barcelona culture has very little to do with the culture in a small village of catalunia
In 2005, i once met an unknown backpacker from catalan on my way to Pokhara, nepal. Thanks to the iraq war, I was just onto the world news . I asked him about the situation of Catalan bcoz i knew he was from spain. HIs facial expression was one of the best moment i had ever encountered with foreigners. He shared his displeasure views about the Spain gov and even told me he was something like a member of underground party banned by the gov. Can't forget him sayin enthusiastically I, i, me, Catalan Lol
I do actually hope it plays out just like that. Enough with this victimist bullshit. Catalans have been benefited by the central government over other Spanish regions for decades, even centuries (talk about protecting their non-competitive textile industry in the 19th century by applying high tariffs to foreign products).
Coca-Cola and the most iconical bank of Catalonia "Caixa" have already moved their headquarters to Madrid. No bussineses wants to leave EU so... obviously they are leaving to the rest of Spain. The big problem is for automovile industry, Nissan and Seat have enormous factories in Catalonia that can´t be moved from one day to another, but they are thinking what to do. Seat (because belongs to Volswagen) maybe close their catalonian factory and move this production to Germany
Cataluña es España 1. Economically it would be a disaster since they wouldn’t be in the EU and many business would leave 2. Historically they were part of Aragón, not their own kingdom 3. They aren’t they only region with their own language Galicia has Gallego, Pais Vasco has basque (euskadi), Asturias has Bable (Asturianu), etc. 4. They turn their kids against Spain since they are little without giving them facts 5. They complain about taxes but their police Mossos d’escaudra I think is their name are paid 3x then the rest of Spain and they have their own embassies around the world Viva España!!!
There is wrong information in the video. First the cataluña deficit is only 0,5% of the gdp (the commercial exchanges shouldnt count). Second there are more reasons like the catalan education or the support of anti system movementes
you LIE. and Spains Job Growth is mainly in Catalonia. and if only 41 % want independence , why is Spain and Franco suck boy Rajoy, so SCARED of letting it take place . Hmmmmm ?
SocietyOfTheSpectacl you cannot broke the laws, this is the most important thing in a democracy. if you want to do a referéndum change the laws and then there wouldnt be any problem
A place is always interdependent on other regions. I don't know much about Spain. But let's say there is a company in Catalonia. It may have branches in other areas of Spain outside Catalonia. If Catalonia is separated from Spain, then that company will suffer a lot.
Catalonia is like a rich brother, and Spain is like a poor brother. Rich brother wants to move out of the house, poor brother who is dependent of rich brother is stopping the rich brother..
These are the reasons why Catalonia is being OPPRESSED: - By having their own regional government (where every single politician earns more money than their counterpart in the Spanish central government) - By controlling the totality of their own public health service (they are actually the region of Spain that has been turning their public health service into a private one the most) - By controlling their educational system (every single lesson is taught in their regional language; children are only exposed to Spanish language 2 hours a week at school; the regional government decides how History is taught so they can shape children's minds) - By having their own police corps that operate practically on every single level (they're better paid than their national police counterparts so at the end of the day they know who their allegiance belongs to) These people are definitely being OPPRESSED...
Where are you from ? Do you live in Catalonia ? Well, I already know the answer; "No". You are clearly misinformed. I'm catalan, I'm currently also in school so I can tell you that you're telling LIES, history class isn't shaped in any way and where the helle did you get that we only have 2h of spanish per week ??? Seriously wtf, there are as much classes in catalan as in castellano and in some cases we'll get more hours of spanish if the teachers comes from out of catalonia. Stop bullshiting please
So you're saying there is no opression, neither from Spain, nor from your own government? In that case, why even bother with independence in the first place? Clearly, you guys are doing just fine.
Anyone who thinks it's a democratic process, lacks both, culture (doesn't know what "democracy" means) and honesty (doesn't mind the damage on Catalan, Spanish and European people)
A referendum is pretty democratic mate, unless you want to wave about your tiny bit of knowledge about ancient Greece as if it is relevant to modern society.
I agree, it wasn't very democractic of Spain to send an invasion force into Catalan in order to beat up people attempting to take part in an election. Spain is more like a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy but they showed their true colours when they kicked and punch people, young and old.
+4TheRecord 1) It was not an invasion force by any means. 2) Beat up people who weren't following orders and decided to break the law 3) What makes Spain a dictatorship? The fact that Spain enforces its laws on its own region is not dictatorship.
I think Catalonia will not achieve independence in the form of a new country of Catalonia but they will probably come to some sort of agreement for some higher degree of autonomy and self governance maybe reduce the tax burden from the Central government. Regardless of what happens Catalonia has established to the world they are NOT Spanish. I knew this because I know people of Catalan origin who explained and proclaimed their Catalan identity while they are not even in favor of politically breaking away from Spain they are adamant that they have a distinct identity and want to assert a high level of autonomy and the world now knows about Catalonia like it never did before. The differences are real.
I'm certain there are benefits to this, But there must be risks to doing this. What I'm asking is: what will happen when Catalonia gets its independence?
chemsou bouaziz out of eu and all international organism. An incrise of the desemployement at 40% and a decrease of 30% of the gdp (the 80% of the exportations goles to eu and spain)
chemsou bouaziz the problem is that in spain the education is rule by the autonomic governments (autonomics aré like federal states) so they had indoctrinate people in the hate of spain (if you search for videos you can see kids of 5 years puting papers to support referendum on the street) so after 40 years people think that spanish hates catalans
I don't care whether Catalonia becomes independent or not, but self-determination is the right of all people. Honestly though I think putting up borders based on nationality is similar to racism.
A 10bn Euro gap between the taxes catalans pay and the services they obtain is called... taxation! Imagine a wealthy individual who wanted more return for his or her taxes just because is paying more... maybe being able to vote 10 times in the elections? maybe having his pool built and paid with taxes? A policemen for his property only. Ah! and by the way: Madrid gap is 20bn...
It's funny how the first argument that some people use is that economic gap. I myself have considered always a federalist but it's quite hard to keep thinking this way when a minister says that they want to tell us what languages to speak at school by "spanishizing" the catalan kids, or another gladly says that has utterly destroyed the catalan healthcare system (talking about peoples health here!), or when they say that we can not ban the bull fights, or give free water and electricity to the poor citizens in Catalonia or when we saw that some people of spain cheered the police and ask them to "go for us, and hit them hard" (a por ellos, hostias como panes....). And I could go on for a while. If it was only for the "spain robs us" motto, independence movements would have never got that popular, it's much much more. And people are kinda tired of it.
Yes, but the fact is that you cannot study in spanish in Catalonia. Spanish being the official language of the country. In Catalonia, Catalan is obviously cooficial, but the harsh reality is that you cannot study in spanish. The more you can get is 2 hours per week. When confronted with that, the Catalan government says that catalan students are proficient in Spanish and for that THEY MANIPULATE THE EXAMS. Just read this study to see how they do it in order to fake their proficiency in spanish and justify the abusive usage of Catalan: drive.google.com/file/d/0B9K3QsORGY1ZVHlmMTAyNVR2eHM/edit
That's you reply? You are a complete joke. After all the arguments you come with that? Here take some other sources: www.elmundo.es/f5/campus/2017/05/17/591b561546163fc2738b4627.html www.publico.es/espana/realidad-impone-topicos.html www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2016/06/14/575fcaa2e2704ede158b4639.html www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20110906/54211211077/el-nivel-de-castellano-de-los-alumnos-de-catalunya-esta-en-la-media-del-resto-de-las-comunidades.html
Dont get nervous. And yes, that's my answer. You were suggesting that central spanish government "invades" catalan education while the reality is that catalan education is completely politisized against anything spanish. And as of your links , you just have not read what I sent you. Have you? Those figures are plain fake. (And my link explains WHY and HOW)
The argument that other countries rely upon their wealthier regions to support their poorer regions doesn't actually explain WHY unity is still beneficial. It's obvious that unity is beneficial for the country as a whole (except for Catalonia) because Catalonia's wealth can be redistributed to the poorer voters in other regions. Equally frustrating is the over-reliance on polls and the suggestion that if there is not a near unanimity among Catalans (solely based upon polls) that a referrendem on the ballot would be irrelevant. Finally, those opposing secession claim that the idea should be rejected because it is relatively new and stems from the education system's influence on Millennials-which still doesn't explain why secession is a bad idea for Catalonia. If anything, Spain's pushback against the secessionists will only galvanize international support for the movement.
X i x If Catalonia declares its independence there will be violence do people honestly think they really think Spain will let them leave no. Spain will bring in there army and suppress this idea of freedom Catalonians have.Which could led to war.
kevin bonilla Spain can't bring in the army, Catalonia can leave if it wants, but EU won't let them I'm afraid. Nevertheless the people have my full support, if I could I'd help somehow but I can't.
I say that there should be a referendum, instead of shutting the people up and oppressing them. That being said if they get a referendum and independence, then they have to get rid of Peudgemont
Shoulders of Giants EU does not accept you without Spanish acceptance. They are still part of EU, no matter what you are looking for.. Get your facts straight, before stirring chaos
Do you remember the Daryl Morey's freedom of speech? Remember the riots in Hong Kong? Have you learned the "be water" tactics? So please respect the internal affairs of each country and give up double standards. Only the people of their own country can understand their national affairs best. Otherwise, When an avalanche occurs, no snowflake is innocent.
You know what this means, no more Real Madrid Barca clasicos. That is sad. The problem is always nationalism of both sides is dividing the people in our country.
waterglass21 So you consider football more important than our language and culture and more important than running our own affairs? That is what is truly sad.
palimpsestransparent no it's just an example of the responsibilities that come with independence (sport has also to become separeted from the rest of Spain and therefore it will suffer the consequences of nationalism) That is all I am saying.
palimpsestransparent nobody is prohibiting your language or culture, you have your writters, fiests and own folklore (as other nations in Spain like Castilla, Asturias, Vasque country etc) The independence IMO is not about culture but about power.
waterglass21 It's more complex than that. I am 43 and have been pro-independence since I was 17 and have friends and family who have also been pro-independence for many years. I can assure you that in our cases it has more to do with preserving our language and culture than gaining power.
palimpsestransparent Im not saying your case but the politics and high class im Cataluña wants more power. Independents movement has been fueled by the money IMO
One mistake, they didnt have an army and own police that works on its own state power, meaning, if the madrid police were to raid, the catalonia police can stand their with their guns and say, come try .
"The people should not be forced to live within the control of a ruling class they don't agree with." Especially when Rajoy's PP party are the direct descendants of Franco's dictatorship and the judges ruling against Catalonia were also serving Franco's fascist , brutal dictatorship. As an example watch at 1.03 as the Franco-Madrid-thug spits at a woman :- ruclips.net/video/xfv9CEVqZbs/видео.html
vinm300 What you say is just not true, the PP is the party that has gotten us out of our biggest crisis and has nothing to do with fascism. Please stop saying idiot things because people may believe what you say
The PP (People's party) was founded by Franco's Minister Fraga who supported an extremely gradual transition to democracy. It was founded by a fascist. What is untrue about that. Look it up on Wikipedia. The judge who is making the rulings also served in the Franco dictatorship : he was a Police Chief. Many people in Spain want to forget the past but if you do not want a return to authoritarian rule you should acknowledge it.
Many say there's no need for independence,however in political views many states might need money back to founds on its state's . For instance if your spouse was the leader of your family and everyone has to pay him or her 50% of your income just to support your country your spouse might be spending that hard work income and other states say it's not fare when their money is for support and the leader gets spend it when no one proclaims their earn .
Europe, remember how you destroyed Yugoslavia, recognized the independence of Kosovo! Europe supported the separatists on the territory of Russia calling them "fighters for freedom", (in reality these were ordinary terrorists). I hope the process will continue and Europe will get many more points of separatism. This is a punishment for your hypocrisy and double standards.
As a person looking from the outside, not having a favorable I'll opinion between one or another, if the referendum is illegal how can Catalonia legally decide if they want to be independent. I strongly believe is self government and if Catalonians do not feel represented by Spain, they should have a right to leave in a legal manner. So, if the referendum is illegal, what is the legal way to do it?
I support any separatist movement under any reason, any time. The people should not be forced to live within the control of a ruling class they don't agree with.
Only we Spaniards know what has been happening in Spain. The competence on education is in Catalonia's hands. This fact allows them to tell children lies about their history, and to grow a feeling of hatred towards the rest of Spain. If you don't believe me, get a book of history from the Catalonia's educational system. You'll see it on your own
José Adrián García Sánchez totally agree in Canada we have the same problem with there French Provence off Quebec. Twice they have tried to leave. Twice they have lost the referendum. My prayers are with you that your country stays strong and United.
If what they say is true that the majority of Catalans don't favor independence then why not let them vote freely, just as happened in Scotland and Quebec. The bottom line is Madrid is very afraid of losing a wealthy region such as Catalonia and what it will mean for the other regions such as the Basques, this is the harsh reality.
As an American looking in,
I feel no need to give an opinion. Let the Spanish and the Catalonians figure it out.
they are going to do that anway
As people from outside west europe looking you meant?
Bye bye el classico...
K Man
Excellent.
Dreadlord 007 nope, as an American.
plss..pls...dont independence..
bcuz i luv barcelona in la liga..
without barcelona ..FOOTBALL is fucking nothing on this planet
Spain is damn lucky they don't have Russia as a neighbour, they're good at „handling“ other countries' secessionist movements..
Any countries sharing borders with Russia, China and India are bad luck.
Sanic Hegehog Gossip from a spoiled kid?
Provide facts instead of lying about free government of Catalunya!
Own language, own educational & law system!
You are obviously unable to judge reality!
Why..? Brainwashed like in North Korea?
Sonic Hedgehog give me an example on what kind of freedom you dont have (other from voting an ilegal referéndum). I think youre full of shit.
For money ,power or fame or supremacy in the society contact the Illuminati and achieve the dreams you want just whatsapp us on +13478717637
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4.The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo your own.
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Lasha Chakhunashvili I'm absolutely agree with you.
There are five more regions in Spain with a distinct language, and the remaining eleven have also distinct cultures and history. We have seventeen regional governments with a huge level of autonomy, so Spain is a country of countries, a nation of nations. No standard Spanish identity exists like in Portugal or Denmark, where all of the citizens are culturally homogeneous. Madrid should embrace all those differences, and of course they shouldn't try to ban them. But the problem here is that pro independence movements only make noise when things go wrong. The peoples of Spain has been in a relative harmony since 1978, but with the 2008 crisis, Catalan pro independence movements suspiciously started to rise. Oh come on, not only Catalonia is different from the rest of Spain, all of the regions are different, and even if they joined forces on the fifteenth century, all of them kept their distinctions in harmony. Everybody knows that what's happening in Catalonia this days is moved by money and selfishness, they have no reasons to say that their culture is being killed when Catalan is an official language there (same in Galicia with Galician), their schools are in Catalan (same in the Basque Country with Basque), and they never had the freedom they have today to express theirselves. We are stronger together. Of course, when Spain won the Euro 2008 and 2012, and the 2010 World Cup, Catalans were all Spanish.
yes maybe Madrid should, but it did not. So let's go. Period
Catalan people are egoistic
I am in agreement that this whole secession movement is a government grift that will bring the people nothing but uncertainty and false hope. Never trust the government. As an American, I can speak to this firsthand.
I went to Spain a couple of months ago and you see these flags flying on apartment buildings and homes. Its crazy.
Well, the non idependent do not need to show their flags, that makes a massive differenc, but it was an exception, and that was back in smer 2010 (futbol world cup), and trust me, you have never seen even half of the independent catalan flags in Barcelona for a whole month like Spanaird flags about that time, and I witness all as I lived in Barcelona in different times of my life.
Thank you for publishing this, I didn't really understand what was going on until now.
at least it was independent for 8 seconds
if the central government is so sure that there is most people will vote against independence, then why not allow the referendum? From where I'm sitting, they look like they're shit scared. The decision for a region to go independant should be made by the people of that region, and no one else.
Because like in FRANCE, GERMANY, THE UNITED STATES, ITALY and so on, the Constitution forbids it. Go ahead and ask for a FREE BRETAGNE, FREE CALIFORNIA (OR SOUTH CAROLINA) OR A FREE VENETTO.
Oh, no, let's screw the Constitution and do just as we please... Today will be territorial integrity, but maybe tomorrow we decide to "legally" pursue people because of their political and religious views... Indeed, a Constitution's just an old piece of paper with no value nor purpose...
Nobody's disputing that. Just discussing why and if it's a mistake.
If they are so sure that the Catalan independence movement would loose, then why don’t they allow the popular vote to decide
Because it is illegal, as simple as that. Even if there was a clear majority, a referendum should not take place, a crime, even if it is supported by many (with cheap sentimental arguments) still is a crime. Obeying the law is the main pillar of democracy, and the law (La Constitución) was voted by the Catalans themselves.
@@itsyeboibangersheesh then why you support referendum in Sahara, our laws make it illegal
Schizophrenia
Because Spain like the United Kingdom is an artificial entity made from true kingdoms and ethnic states. If Cataluña goes, then perhaps, the Basque Country, then Galicia. Who knows maybe even the more integrated provinces like Extremadura… Spain isn’t called a federation, but in practice it is. It isn’t one unified folk like the Portuguese are.
And yall moan about India and Kashmir
@@itsyeboibangersheesh actually the people's will being unobstructed is the main pillar of democracy, and you're specifically saying "F*ck you" to that"
Finaly i found objective news on this issue ! after looking for 30 minutes !
This is exactly the problem we have in our world today.....
They didn't want this when Spain economy was good. The Independentist spirit on Catalonia is fueled mostly by huge egoism, a lot of populism, unhealthy nationalism and a shameless manipulation of history.
Goodnightmoon Exactly.. They even argue they'll happily either leave or stay with EU & enjoy free market possibilities.
Leaving Spain means leaving EU & begging for membership.
Spanish veto, and their future wealth is down the drain..!
While no business nor production can compete with extra taxes, forcing otherwise successful production leaving to Spain or France, or take the full step & head for China..
Such important practical issues completely ignored or manipulated by these brainwashed identity freaks..
Alot (not this many) wanted to leave Spain, or at least they thought themselfs as Catalans first and Spanish second, you can even look videos of Pep Guardiola speaking on the subject long before the 2008 crisis. The crisis did INDEED helped and ignite even more the movement and the austerity helped too (One of the great Merkels contributions for the "United" Europe), not to mention, the younger Generation now is older, and have more a political conscience. So it was just a matter of time until this happened, this didnt happen by magic all of the sudden. And for the next generation of Catalans, being raised by the current ones, the movement will be even bigger. But indeed the Economical crisis helped creating the current situation.
Well if they do leave, sure they will have to aplly to enter the EU, but i can see they enter easily. If micro states like Luxembourg exists, and in the EU why wouldnt Catalonia enter (with one of the main european cities in it), and being European, with european culture and a former memever, why wouldnt the EU let them in? And even if the Catalans dont get their independence now, and Spain stays unified, the Country needs a reform, turning maybe in a Federation, for example, if Madrid let the constitucional reform in 2010 for the language status, would be a start.
THATS RIGHT my friend
They wanted independence before you were born...
I mean like all good Russians wanted to destroy the Soviet Union that all good europeans want to destroy (Soviet)European Union .
You should have pointed out that every single member of the regional Catalonian government has a higher salary than its counterpart in the central government (the Spanish government). We are talking of a difference up to 60% depending on the position. We are talking about more than 200 Catalonian government employees getting better paid than the Spanish Prime Minister. Now go talk about oppression!
So, they shouldn't be independant because some government employees are paid more than some other government employees?
I never said they shouldn't be independent. Why are you assuming that? What I can't stand about them is all the lies they've been telling for years, trying to convince the world they are some kind of victims. Yeah, "oppression" my balls...
George Zee I was curious as to why you bring it up, seeing as it seemed to me to have no real relevance as to whether Catalonia should be independent. And, judging by your response, it doesn't.
Oh, yes, it's quite relevant since it's very telling about their strange way of perceiving reality. They keep talking about oppression when there's none. They want independence so they don't need to share their money? Ok, that's totally fine, but please don't try to disguise your situation like something else. It's actually offensive to people that are truly living under oppressive nations.
George Zee I'm pretty sure oppression can take many forms, for instance, linguistic oppression, cultural oppression, stopping a large group of people from being self governing by sending in police to fire rubber bullets at crowds. I'd say this is quite oppressive.
But, anyway, the only thing that is relevant to this discussion for anyone living outside of Catalonia is whether or not the people of Catalonia want to be independent.
While 71% understand Catalan, it is the mother tongue of only 35% of Catalans, while 55% have Spanish as their mother tongue
If he thinks the polls show there is no majority in favour of independence, then let them have a referendum to proove this point once and for all!
Good luck for you Catalonian people. Best wishes from Latvia our people knows what you are going thrue. Dount give up you are so close to freedom.
Catalonia is already free within Spain.
Shut up
Please explain what they are going through
@@Spanish_Patriot Hmmm, so that's why the Spanish Supreme Court declared that Catalonia's universities must have 25% of their classes in Spanish? :/ That sounds close to what Canada done to the natives.
Ojalá te lleguen muchos musulmanes comemierda a tu país e independicen la parte a la que se han mudado, hijo de puta
I wonder if Catalunya would let Barcelona vote for its independence after Catalunya becomes independent, as it is the wealthiest region in Catalunya and where there's the biggest proportion of non-independent people.
:/ Well, did the US allow West Florida to be independent after 1776?
Unfortunately, independence is somewhat hypocritical; the state of California cannot be independent, but Cuba can be.
NBA: Fight for freedom. Stand with Catalonia.
USA: It’s a beautiful scenery line.
It's called virtue signalling
@@justinnamuco9096 but it’s not virtue signalling when the right claims to be doing it during covid times?
Yet another youtube video blatantly missing the key stone and basic foundation of the whole issue. The spanish constitution doesn't allow for a regional referendum about independence. No negotiation between government and nationalists can have that on the table, for the government doesn't have the right, nor the power, to agree on something inconstitutional. The independentists PERFECTLY know that. Only to demand for EXACTLY such a referendum and settling for nothing else.
A change of the Spanish 1978 constitution (which has been on the table for years now because it's widely aknowledged that there's a dire need to update it) to modify it and modernize it opens the way for negotiations that might end up in changing the constitutional rules about regional independence referendums for exceptional cases. Thus potentially opening the way for a LAWFUL, LEGIT, referendum like the one the independentists claim to want. The independentists know that aswell- yet they aren't interested in taking part in any such negotiations. Nor they're interested in waiting for any constitutional reformation that might legitimate them to hold such a referendum. They wanted the referendum NOW, when it's illegal and anticonstitutional and the government has to actively act against it.
Because it's not in their interest in waiting for it to be legal, much less to take part in the negotiations to legitimate it. Because their plan is not independence. Their plan is to destroy Spain and proclaim independence as part of the destruction of the Spanish State. They're not interested in Catalonian independence: what they want is Catalonian independence at the cost of destroying Spain. They won't settle for anything less. And that explains their insane actions up to today, the next steps that will come next (self-proclaimed independence to force Spain into pretty much either instaurating a state of exception or collapse), and bring the whole constitutional order to the border of destruction.
The essential truth of this is that the whole independentist movement is an excuse for the pro-independentist "parties" in catalonia, which for the most part are either hard left (those who come from what was formerly known as Republican Left of Catalonia, ERC) or openly anti-system and neoanarchists (CUP) to attempt an open and decided attack against the foundation of the Spanish State: It's constitution. They're not interested in negotiating it's change. They're only interested in bringing it down, throwing the whole of Spain into legal oblivion as a result. They don't want a referendum to gain independence. They want to pretty much bring down Spain and force it's collapse, to then pick the pieces they want, and then proclaim their "independence" from the ruins of the destroyed building.
Another factor missing is that the "independentist" movement they're talking about is not only based on anti-system principles, it's also fiercely and brutally antispanish. They take as much pride in their claimed "catalonian" identity as they take in hating anything spanish. It's hardly surprising, though, that they're actually more interested in seeing Spain collapse than in getting any independence.
There's no authoritarian attittude coming from Madrid. IN any really serious self-respecting modern west country, those impostors, and that gang of coupists would've been trialled long ago. That to begin with. It'd be a riot to see those lot trying to pull this off in France. They would last exactly 5 minutes before being arrested.
As for those who claim Spain is reacting in an opressing, authoritarian fashion: In a REAL authoritarian state, Catalonia would've been under the control of the Military for months now, under a state of exception (because what happened on sunday, 1st October, and is still ongoing, is nothing but a coup d'etat, and actually the Constitution allows for such extreme measures in such cases). Had the Spanish Government been interested in taking any autoritarian, totallistic, approach, the streets of catalonia would've been WIPED OUT of manifestants last Sunday. There was no such thing (by far)
The spanish state is trying to defend itself against a concerted, brutal, well designed and aimed, attack designed to pretty much bring it down and force it's collapse. If anything, the central government handling of the issue is being extremely soft and weak (mostly because of the political division we have right now here). The Constitution contemplates the action against a rebelling region in several articles, and one of them (Article 155, suspending autonomy in the region, dissolving the catalonian autonomic parliament and government and restituting all autonomic attribution to the central government for a limited time to act against things exactly like this) is long overdue being applied. But hasn't been called for yet - exactly for the reason of trying to avoid at any costs to give the image of the government acting as some kind of opressors (when they're just applying the LAW, something which EVERY state is pretty much expected, entitled and actually pretty much FORCED to do).
The best part and the part this guys are constantly ignored, is that if this lot is allowed to get away with it, this will set a precedent that won't go amiss by others. The whole of Europe will be Balcanized in a couple of decades if this assholes are allowed to set such a precedent, because others (notably the antisystems who want to bring the whole foundation of the modern states based on the Rule of the Law down) will know what to do next.
It's in the very best interest of anyone who wants to live in a civilized world that what's going on in Spain is stopped COLD. Otherwise we won't be the only ones thrown into oblivion...most of Europe will follow us into the black hole in a few years. The signs are there for everyone to understand them. But as long as the REAL agenda of those who're creating the huge circus Catalonia is right now is not aknowledged by everyone, and spread through the media for everyoone to understand what's truly at stake here, you'll be playing those guy's tune, and helping them in attaining their goals.
I do not know how close to reality your comment is, but I do see some very possible scenarios in it, and I do agree with you that what is happening in Catalonia must be stopped by any means without making any martyrs.
The only way to stop bullshit propaganda is just stating proper facts. Those guys would rip off any attempt to shoot their crap down pointing at even the slightest false statement they could find in posts like mine (even while themselves they're just spewing out mass bullshit.).
A little insight that backs what I'm saying you can find here:
elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/04/inenglish/1507104937_874487.html
Which pretty much shows up to which point those guys are ready to resort to spewing BS in the international media, when none of it is real, but convinced that some will stick (and it's doing so).
Or this:
elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03/inenglish/1507025584_438952.html
Which puts things in quite a perspective, in contrast of what those BS spewers are claiming in the international media.
Noone has invaded noone's house (well some of the proindependentists "okupas" who almost all are sided with the CUP do just that all the time, but hey, who cares, right?), noone's fkin anyone, and if anything is the spanish taxpayer who's keeping that woefully managed region afloat while having to repeatedly and daily hear how bad we are, how much we opress them and how awful Spain is. And know what?. We're about to have it with them.
Do you know that they're by far the region that most spends on wellfare in spain and one of the most in europe while collecting well below the average, creating a huge deficit that's been a burden on SPAIN for years?. And of course you know they DO manage everything related with their own wellfare, don't you?. So they bankrupt their own wellfare system and once it's ruined, they come to Madrid to ask for the Central Government to pay for what THEY broke in the first place.
Do you know how much money is being sent daily to Catalonia, even today, because even while they have all the tax collecting attributions in their region they don't have enough to pay neither doctors, policemen or firemen?. Do you know that in case of a cut off of that support, the Generalitat would have no money to pay even next month's wage of most of the public sector of Catalonia?.
Do you know that Catalonia expect and "demands" Spain to pay a whooping 1750 million euros PER MONTH, for their old people's pension in case of a theoretical independence, because they don't have a cent to pay for that and their own wellfare system (which is managed 100% in catalonia itself by the Generalitat) is far from collecting even 75% of what's needed to keep it running?. Do you know that, right now, Spain is paying in excess of 1.630 milions PER MONTH to pay for the pensions of retired and old catalonians, because the Generalitat has not a fucking euro to do so, even while they're SUPPOSED to do it (as part as their economic attributions)?.
(the spanish-hating independentists can go fuck themselves, btw, being independent means you pay for your own shit. Pensions too)
Do you know that the Catalonian Healthcare system is hanging on a wire, and that wire is direct monthly money injections from the autonomic trust fund (established by the central government to help regions in economic problems) and the spanish ministry of economy?
Do you know that the public television of Catalonia, TV3, has a huge deficit, and while is a platform constantly used to spew independentist bullshit and lies against spain, if not directly nazi propaganda (you should see the kind of shit they emitted about the so-called "referendum") is paid for with public taxpayer money?
Do you know that the Catalonian independentists pretend their citizens to keep spanish nationality on top of catalonian? (as spanish citizens they'd be able to move freely within the EU, as Catalonians they wouldn't be able to go past the frontier without being subjected to all the customary duties and searches)
(the spanish-hating independentists can also go fuck themselves, if they want to be catalonian, I'm all for it, but they no longer would be Spanish).
Do you know that most public infrastructure in Catalonia is private-owned (From the AP-7 highway to most of the high speed infrastructure in the region), and that the companies who own the rights are all fleeing the place in a hurry?
Do you know that an independant catalonia would be immediately out of the EU, with all the brutal consequences? (even while the independentists have been stating the opposite for years now, and the EU has warned literally dozens of times about it)
Do you know that every big business operating on Catalonia is nowadays fleeing from the territory because of the impending economic catastrophe if the Spanish money is gone to keep the sinking ship afloat? (Caixa, Sabadell, CaixaBank, Gas Natural, Mediolanum, Freixenet, etc, and more are to follow) which both means that those entities would no longer pay taxes to the Catalonian Generalitat? (BTW you DO know that it's the catalonians who collect their own taxes, don't you?).
Of course all of them have stated they'll return once the status of Catalonia as integral part of Spain is certified. Wow.
Do you know that such a mass-migration of businesses as the one that was kickstarted two days ago is the tip of the iceberg, for the announced intentions of foreign investors to immediately withdraw from Catalonia in the event of an independentist coup and secesion. Do you know the big industrial centers of SEAT (owned by VW who has already stated the second Catalonia goes independent, the second they close the factories there) closing down, alone, would immediately leave more than 15.000 people without a job, plus all the shockwave effects on subsidaries, services, etc of the region?.
Do you know that the Catalonian agricultural sector (which ironically, is fiercely proindependence) has subsisted on EU subsidies alone?. Do you know that none of them would survive even a few months without those subsidies?. Do I have to repeat Catalonia would be instantly out of the EU the second it secedes?
Do you know that Catalonia has an economy rating below that of Zambia?. Do you know that they'd be unable to operate in the international debt market because their rating is equal to trash, and that their intention is to try and avoid that by making Spain pay for their own shit? (so much for independence, right? And again, the spanish-hating independentists can pretty much fuck off for all I care, but they won't see a cent of spanish money).
Finally, do you know Catalonia is integral part of a full-fledged, western, modern, democracy, which is both aknowledged and recognized as such by everyone?. Meanwhile noone will ever recognize an seceded independent catalonia through a coupd'etat. They've tried to secure that recognition. Thus far their only success was Maduro's Venezuela...and Cambodia.
But Yeah, man, we spanish, the ones who literally are preventing them to go into oblivion by paying for their mismanagements, are just scum entering their house and fucking their women. Literally, your own words.
Get lost. You have no idea of what Catalonia is actually like, and how much is costing us all spanish citizens to help them recover from a miserable economic bankrupcy they created themselves (Again the degree of economic control the Catalonian autonomic government has over itself is UNEQUALLED worldwide by any other region, federal, autonomic, or not)
We're more than happy, all, to do it, with and for catalonian people who're law abiding citizens, who're hard working people who've been subjected to pisspoor corrupt proindependentist regional governments for years (though in the end, it was themselves putting those in power, but still), who feel Catalonian and Spanish, or even Catalonian alone. We're more than happy to do it for those who are independentists ,but don't hate Spain.
but for the the spanish-hating independentists that hold Catalonia hostage right now?. Those can very much fuck off my nation and take their region with them. It's not even 2.5 million people in a region that has 7.500.000 inhabitants, to begin with, so once the other 5.000.000 leave (they'll be more than welcome in the rest of a country that loves and appreciates them), and once all the big businesses have flown away from the disaster (again, they'll be more than warmly received and invited to establish themselves elsewhere they want in Spain) they can have their own shit anarchist party going and see how far it takes them before they start killing each other. Because let's not forget, the ones who're pushing this forward are mostly left-hardliners (ERC, and the regional franchise of Podemos which is nothing but a neo-communist party led by someone that would make Lenin proud) and the CUP (anarchists and antisystems who only want to destroy democracy). The last time those two groups lined up together they ended up mass killing each other, how do you expect they'll manage if given another try?.
They can do all that. They can have it. A lot of us spanish people are so tired of them that we're past the point of wanting to have to deal with their constant ,repeated, nonstop bullshit, hate, lies, crap, and debts.
But if they do get it, they get it alone. Spain won't pay for their bollocks, no matter how they delude themselves that we'll accept to do so, so once they're poor as rats and have nowhere to go, no work, no healthcare, no pensions, no economy and begin punching each other as they inevitably will, they remember the days where they were yelling "Spain robs us".
The comment you are answering to is totally right. No way to negotiate without a legal route. The first step would be to change the constitution (which it should have been done decades ago but our politians are too afraid to do it). I want Catalan people to vote because it is a right for being in a democratic state, however they cannot make a referendum which implies division of "Spanish State" because of the Constitution Law. It is as simple as this. I guess and I want to believe that most of Spanish people doesn´t like what policeman did, neither the worng aproach from media about all what is going on. I don´t want to believe that most of Spanish wouldn´t let Catalan to vote. But the point is that the protest should go against National Goverment in order to change the constitution and by a national referendum elect a new constitution which gives a new framework of Spain as a State to work and improve as country. And I hope that new constitution will be a tool to improve the union among all people in Spain.
I don´t think Catalonia is out, mentally and emotionally, from Spain but from the actual Goberment which for almost 8 years have done nothing to ensure a peaceful status inside Spain. After the option of referendum by law will be a available one then we can talk about why they want them to be independent. But first of all, Constitution must be changed.
the comment I was answering to is full of shit. As simple as that, and the post pretty much explains why.
Beyond that, there's no constitutional change possible when the independentists REFUSE to take part in a negotiation about it. They've been offered that negotiation dozens of times in the last 5 years (first time in 2012, last time merely a week before the so-called "referendum"), time after time they've plainly stated they don't want constitutional modifications, that they want an illegal anticonstitutional referendum NOW.
Well, that they can't have, and that they won't have, and no matter how many times they repeat the lie that they had one last Sunday, they didn't have one (what happened last Sunday was many things, but a referendum wasn't one of them).
As for the "first step would be to change the constitution"...I'll copy/paste an answer I gave to someone else when explaining the key cornerstone differences between the scottish case and the catalonian one. Beware. It's LONG:
-------------
The spanish constitution DOES NOT allow for regional independence referendums. No State, nor government, can, neither intentionally or unintentionally, engage in decisions, activities, negotiations nor concessions that frontally oppose it's own constitution. If an Executive does so it'd be immediately called off by the Spanish Constitutional Court, which was instituted with the express purpose of overwatching the central and autonomous executives from engaging in just that, and the decision immediately overturned.
And before you argue about changing the spanish constitution, it's the way it is for VERY good reasons:
First: that particular passage of the Constitution is very similar (in most parts virtually identical) to that of almost every other modern country out there and in fact it's less restrictive than some of them ,which simply don't even contemplate any secession mechanisms at all (The Spanish Constitution has mechanisms that allow for regional secessions. They're not easy to achieve, but the mechanisms exist. A LOT of modern nations don't have anything like that, and we don't need to go very far: the US constitution, for instance, it's a legal, final, binding, union, where secession is simply NOT possible through any legal means, period.)
Second: NO country in the world includes any kind of constitutional right for any part of it's sovereignty to singlehandedly engage in a process of secession on a whim, just because a regional, not statewide, referendum is hold and the results are positive. *None*. The potential results of a constitution that allows for that might end up in catastrophic scenarios, as the OP of this thread stated, the proclamation of a Califate in a particular small area (nations don't need to be very big, just look at Monaco) of a nation with heavy muslim immigration concentrated in a very focused area of it's geography. Not to mention the mess and constant insecurity that would cause on the international investors to invest in a given region of a country that they don't know if in a couple months will have a stroke of genius and decide that they want to go their own merry way. Any state with a Constitution that allows for that kind of shenanigans will attract no foreign investors at all, will have atrocious debt ratings, and would be economically inviable in the short-medium term as a result.
Third: Even while keeping in mind what I stated avobe, such a change can't and won't happen until all political forces in spain (ALL of them, independentists included, because ALL have to accept it and abide by the agreed changes) sit down and engage in a constitutional process. There's been actually talks of a constitutional reform for years in Spain (the 1978 one is getting outdated in several ways). But we've been hostages of those who today are coupists for years.
There's a definite problem here, and that is that, as any other western nation, the sovereignty of Spain resides on it's people. It's WHOLE people. This country is ours. of all of us. If suddenly a minority decides to take a part of whats everyone's, then everyone has a say in wether they can have it or not. What they can't do is to decide to take it on their own, because it's as theirs as ours, and we are more. In any civilized democracy, the majority decides. And if the majority says "no", and they don't like it, well, too bad, they still can't have it. Is part of the reality of living in a modern democracy, and not 1990 Yugoslavia.
and herein lies the main difference you're looking for. The Sovereingty (hence, ownership) of Spain resides in all the spanish people. Hence, Catalonia (as much as the rest of the country) belongs to ALL the spanish people.
Mark this on your mind, because this is the core of it: I'm spanish. As such, Catalonia is as much my home as it is any independentist dude's. The same way he owns a share on the rest of Spain wether he likes it or not. So ,by principle, he has no right to tell me that's not part of my home anymore because he has decided to have it that way. He can ask me if I agree for him to take it as his exclusive property, and we'll decide together. That, yes, he can do. But not more than that. If I don't decide, alongside the rest of the spanish people, to agree with him, then no deal. Because, once again, Spain belongs to every spaniard, not only him. The whole of it. And including Catalonia.
(and if he says that's somehow unfair, I'm sorry, it's not unfair, is what the own catalonians decided in 1978 when by almost 91% of their own decision, they agreed to accept the Spanish Constitution).
Any other proposal would be theft. You don't take stuff from others because you decide it suddenly is yours, right?. Well, same happens here.
that's a basic foundation and principle shared by most modern countries and democracies of today, where the rule of law applies, and has a good reason to be that way. Because if it's any other way we'd have Yugoslavia all over again...but across whole continents. No goodie.
----that''s the text I pasted. Now I'll elaborate a bit further:
There's a reasonable path that would hypotetically allow for a Catalonian referendum: a renegotiation of the current one that states that upon entering into validity, the Spanish people (as a whole) defer our collective sovereignty over Catalonia to the decision of those who live there, in a legally binding regional referendum, and that upon the result of that referendum the status of Catalonia would be either FINAL within the Spanish state, or FINAL as a seceded state.
Said constitution would have to SPECIFICALLY mention that such an extraordinary measure is to be applied in that instance, and that instance only because, believe it or not, a Constitution that allows for anyone deciding he wants to have a go at declaring independence at any given time just because, is a BRUTAL mess for the reasons stated in the text avobe.
And SUCH a constitution, if approved by referendum, would be a HUGE gesture of generosity of the spanish people towards those who for 40 years have wasted our money in propaganda shit as TV3, bankrupted their own autonomic economy and costed us ALL (because we're all owners of it, let's not forget) dozens of thousands of millions of euros because of their wasteful policies.
And above all that, towards all those who have called us, and labelled us as thiefs, scum, fascists, opressors, repressors, shitty, lazy, and the long etcetera you perfectly know those guys have lobbed our way.
If they want to earn that generosity they can't do it worst than what they're doing it: By deadlocking any constitutional debate by PLAINLY REFUSING to take part in it, by staging coup d'etats to destroy Spain, by insulting us on a daily basis, by bullying people who feel spanish in the streets of Catalonia, etc
They're not doing a good job, are they?. THEY HAVE TO EARN THAT GENEROSITY, and right now they threw every bit of it to the ditch by what they're doing and what they're labelling us as in the international media.
but there's the way. The LEGIT way. The LEGAL way. It exists. Staging coup d'etats, engaging in regionwide insurrection, insulting us, engaging in mass-lying to the media to falsely accuse Spain of being violent towards them, treating our police as terrorists while extorting those who give them a place to stay with coward threats, etc , is NOT the legit way. But they're interested only in the illegal way (they know that quite likely they'd lose the legal way, as the last regional elections showed). Because they don't want independence. They want to destroy Spain, to then pick the falling pieces and declaring them independent.
Finally I won't be the one to express admiration for a government that I think is MANY things, none of them good (from incompetent, corrupt to incapable - but so it is every other political party in Spain politics nowadays so nothing new). But to state that for 8 years they haven't been interested in a "peaceful" solution to this, isn't true. First, because 8 years ago the current government wasn't in power to begin with (it was still the nefarious days of ZP).
And second because, as I stated, since 2012 they've called the Catalonian Independentists to present a Constitutional change that allows for their demands. Something that the independentists, I insist, have stoutly, repeatedly and continuously REFUSED to do (from the "referendum or referendum" of Mas, up to the "we will proclaim the unilateral declaration of independence next week" of Puigdemont)
yes, there's been a side here which didn't want to negotiate. No, it wasn't the central government.
Societies have the right to democratically choose their future.
Also, all of Spain has the right to decide if Catalonia can be independent or not. The US had an entire war (Civil War) about this, and the entire country should have a say in this.
No, They don't.
Unless you're the Ukraine, I guess
Nobody has inherent "rights", if they did then everyone would have them and it's clear and obvious that everyone does not. Rights are recognized in onr of two ways: 1. No one challenges them. 2. Those claiming rights have the ability to protect them from those who challenge them.
I do believe that people have the moral authority to determine their own destiny, or moral authority to exercise sovereignty.
But this isn't a right, if it were Palestinians would not be occupied by Israelis.
The only reason America has the right to self-govern is because we won a war against Great Britain.
The reason the South does not have a right to self-determination is because they lost the war to the Yankees.
If the wishes of the majority are not recognized through peaceful democracy they will be fought for in a violent and justified Civil War.
Jaafer Irfan Your argument supports slavery. If one group of people have the moral authority to determine, by majority vote, the destiny of another group of people then they could vote to enslave them.
People have the moral authority to determine their own destiny not the destiny of others.
Rights are a different thing all together and are determined by the ability to protect/enforce them.
If i were Spain i'd be on the lookout for young male russians with military background "seeking vacation" in Catalonia during the upcoming weeks.
they should expel the russian ambassador just in case
Every society has the right for self determination & independence. A failure to acknowledge that right makes a nonsense of basic Human Rights.
I agree Spain has to decide not only Catalognia.
I live in Catalonia since 1993 but i am English. I must say, BRAVO The Economist on keeping it balanced and real!
0:00 Donkey kong Country Returns Furious Fire music 😂😂😂
That's a state where nobody plays with the GOV. In Romania we are rug to any minority, A country where the majority is discriminated and has no rights that's Romania. Spain can send tanks into a minority and everyone is belly up. Respect!
If they are mad about not getting money back in services that shouldn't be a reason for wanting independence. California goes through the same; California pays more taxes than it gets back, but this is because the system is designed to help the regions where people are doing worse.Russian love this kind of divisive situations and they help fund political campaigns. Europe is more powerful when it is together breaking Europe makes it easy for Russians to destabilize.
adriaNotfun - maybe dealing with Brussels is better? Russia is not a threat to the EU. Neither is China or Islam. Guess who is the threat?
Oh spare me the bullshit neocon propaganda. You do realize that Russia has many investments inside the EU right? If the Euro were to be dissolved and the EU to break up, the Russian economy would collapse completely. The EU leadership brought their problems on themselves by removing all borders. The migrant crisis is tearing Europe apart. Russia had nothing to do with that. George fucking Soros is the real threat. He has done more to destabilize Europe than Russia could ever hope to do.
adriaNotfun California doesn't pay a higher % in federal taxes. They pay higher state taxes than anyone else. But u have to remember California uses more federal resources than any other country. Large industries that pay 0 federal taxes & get millions back in taxes. Also California business like Elon musk borrow billions of federal tax dollars.
cant agree that Islam isn't a threat your crazy if you cant see that
Douchenbag 6969 exactly couldn't agree more buddy most people never heard of George Soros but he's one mean little bastard there more big players as well like Goldman sacks and the Rothschild's all are evil scum.
Spain always proclaims to have a clear majority against independence, but they always reject a referendum.
Winning the referendum will provide them with legitimacy, instead they clearly show they're afraid of losing as Independence is boosting election after election (52% of vote to pro-independence parties in last catalan parliament elections.
The Spanish Constitutional Court would likely hold that such referendum is unconstitutional under article 2 of the Spanish Constitution, making it legally impossible
There are other reasons that do not appear in this video. For instance.
- Current Spanish institutions were created by fascists - and current ruling party (PP) rejects to condemn the Franco era crimes.
- Still, Current Spanish institutions have inherited many corrupt practices form the Franco era, such a influence peddling, weak separation of powers.
- Current ruling Spanish party PP only gets 10%-20% of popular vote in Catalonia. Catalonia and the rest of Spain vote extermely different in many issues, but we still have to implement laws from Spain that don't represent the Catalan voters.
- Many Catalan laws are turned down by the Spanish Constitutional Court. Laws that were made to protect people from poverty have been turned down recently.
Correction: 10bn is the Spanish official data, but it's 16bn according to many estimations. This means basically working for 2 months each year and giving away all your salary.
Finally, if the Spanish government was so confident that most catalans do not want independence, they could issue a non-binding consultation in Catalonia. That's fully Constitutional. They don't do it because they think they might lose, they prefer not to debate but to send thousands of policemen and treat us like criminals.
Well that may be so. But, when you dress in black and lit things on fire, destroying public property. You then are criminals. You're giving the government official reason to deploy riot police. Very stupid on the Catalan's part.
America started a war when one of its regions decided to have their own independence. Compared to that, Spanish government actions was extremely civil. People like to play the victim card. Also Spain took these assholes from third world countries levels in 70s to advanced rich nations. But now they all are biting the hand that fed them for so long. Typical dogs. Another point, Spain will never let catalonia enter Europe. The same way Greece blocked Turkey's membership for so long. Their so called soccer team will vanish as a mass exodus of players would occur. And Spain may never trade with them. Hence catalonia's only trading routes would be the Mediterranean. It may be that catalans would suffer hunger.
Note Jay At the very beginning of the war the Confederate government (The rebels) started raising up state militias and forming their own army, even firing upon military bases still loyal to the Union government. Pretty different issue, but a better analogy would be that it's illegal to secede if the Constitution does not allow for it. Just like the South seceded illegally due to not having the permission of the US government, Catalonia is attempting to secede illegally due to not having permission from the Spanish government.
Don’t like getting high taxes? Live somewhere Cheaper in Spain, I live in California I pay more taxes than someone in Utah or Mississippi
Having homeless drug addicts camping in your front lawn clearly show that your taxes are well spent
I support Catalionia’s Independence even though am from USA.
as a spanish person this was very hurtful to read
Greeting From Free Man Armenian 2 Catalonia whatewer you deside we support you brothers and sisters I hope Spain understand and better make picfull wey of will off Catalonians again hug 🤗 basquies peopel ✌️
This is as simple as it can be. If you want a weak Spain and a weak Europe you'll want independence. If you want war and riots and conflicts you'll want independence. If you want *extremist* arabic groups rubbing their hands satisfied then you'll want independence. If you want to create even more instability to Europe you'll vote independence.
We are stronger united. Together. That's my opinion. Right or wrong that's what I think. History tells us how it was like when we were divided.
"bow to the King!"
"Freedoooooooom!"
It's much better for wealthier regions ( usually small) in the EU to be an independent country.
So in this way every rich province or a region or a city in a country should secede from its mother country because they have to pay more taxes? The rest of the country is poor naturally the money would go to those who need it. It shouldn't be going to those who already well off. The union always benefits
Maybe after independence, the rest of Spain would start to question the Corruption of Franco's bastard children in madrid,
where fraud of the publc purse is the norm.
United We Stand Divided We Fall... Something the most prosporous country in the world lives by... Well the majority of people here live by. If you want to fight for independence that's fine, but don't think for a second that it is justified. America is what it is today because it had a just cause. A cause that everyone of all religions and cultures and ethnic groups could live together united, and we can fight against an unfair oppresive king. What do the catalonians have? Their taxes aren't going toward public services? Spain is anything but oppressive and just because your going through rough times doesn't mean you can't stick it together and get through it united. That is why the American Cival War started, no one could diplomatically come to a referendum. Don't make the same mistake we did all those years ago, you'll just destroy and kill the things you stand for and the people you love, breaking families apart, forever divided untill the day you die.
Also, if 70% are going to vote (fairly good turn out) and 41% vote yes, given that the two percentages are out of the same total, you have a strong majority for the yes vote. Stop manipulating information.
Thomas Lampon-Masters what they're saying is the vote doesn't speak for the whole. Catalonians will regret this decision especially if they make Spain an enemy. I'm not even from there, but from what I've seen they're better ways, stand, think and change things. Don't run back when you meet an obstacle, fucking tackle it. And I could've helped if they asked for my help. But I'm an idiot to them.
The Playable CEMU you seem full of hate. Not my problem. I'm not even from there but it's just clear to see what's happening. If barely more than half of voters decide an election, the result doesn't justify the people's cause. I'm sure the govt in Catalonia will want this way more than the people.
Like I said to someone else, most of the population wants a referendum not independence. Meaning that they just want more public services that they should be getting. Just because the numbers look different doesn't mean it isn't true or false.
Violently oppressing the people will only fuel their desire for independence and that will spiral into violence. Spain should give them what they want, a referendum. It can be held two years from now, buying time for the Spainish government to convince Catalonia to stay with spain.
All the best to the Catalans . Greetings from Timor Leste
They need to let the catalonian people vote! Stopping the vote with Force will only make things worse! Power to the people of Catalonia!
The Economist, are you sure it is pronounced Javier?
Those Catalonians should not be voting to break away from Spain. It’s illegal. They are part of Spain and that’s final.
but they doin it now so what
wsx2000lol ...no. They’re not gonna do it
wsx2000lol - they will not succeed.
If they rename themselves Aragon, Crown a king and vassalise south italy, im okay with that
I remember Aragon ruled southern Italy?
Specially for Portuguese an Dutch people:
We lost the 1640-1652 (when we proclaimed the Catalan Republic) and 1705-1714 wars with Castile. Portugal took advantage of the 1640 rebellion in Catalonia and won the independence. Had Portugal lost the war, they would be in the same situation as us: even if you can vote, your votes are merged with the much numerous Castilian votes, so you can't decide your future.
The same is true for Netherlands: so occupied fighting in Catalonia, in 1648 finally Spain gave up and recognised your independence. In 1713, in the Treaty of Utrecht, you abandoned us, altought we were defending a parliamentary system and laws so similar of yours.
It would be nice you remember this and help us now.
no, you are part of Spain
The principle of territorial integrity constitutes a basic element of contemporary international law. This is a principle that is laid out as a limit to any secessionist pretension that rests on criteria other than those of negotiation with the state in question. By the same token, the right of peoples to self-determination, expressly recognised in the Charter of the United Nations, is only permitted in certain very specific circumstances: former colonies; peoples annexed by conquest, foreign domination or occupation and peoples oppressed by massive and flagrant violations of their human rights. The exercise of these rights must be done in accordance with the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations and the other principles of international law that regulate the matter, including, in this regard, the principle of territorial integrity. In summary, it is a right that is not applicable to Catalonia.
Constitutions do not accept the right to secession. It is a constant in comparative constitutional law confirmed by the pronouncement of the High Courts of the countries concerned (Supreme Court of the United States, Supreme Court of Canada, among others). In the case of Spain, the Constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards, and the right to secession is not only not contemplated in our Supreme Law, the constituent legislator expressly rejected the motion put by Deputy Letamendia in the sense of expressly recognising a right to self-determination of the peoples of the state that allowed them to choose between continuing to form part of Spain or forming an independent state (265 vote against, 5 votes in favour and 11 abstentions).
A constitutional reform that entails a substantial change in the model of state must be the product of a decision taken by the Spanish people, where national sovereignty resides, and in accordance with the procedures set forth in the Constitution itself. Nobody denies the possibility of amending the Constitution: only a few nationalists and secessionists deny it, because they deny that right to the citizenry as a whole, demanding that only a few be entitled to exercise it. All citizens are entitled to participate in political affairs, not just some of them.
Spain is a democratic country internationally recognized as such. Our constitution is based on the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation. Its ratification in 1978 was the result of a broad consensus across diverse parties, including the Catalan nationalists of Puigdemont’s party, and received support from over 90 percent of the Catalan voters in a referendum. Democracy is essentially dialogue, pact, and agreement. When a UNILATERAL POLITICAL ACTION IS PROPOSED THAT PURSUES AND END TO THE PACT, the agreement, in short, to coexistence, it is improper to talk of a democratic principle.
If they think that the majority is not in favor of the independence then why won't they allow the referendum?
Im catalan and I dont want independence, and so the majority of catalans. We're the real ones that have been oppressed by the sepraratists ( like if u go outside with the Spanish flag they insult u, call u fascist and sometimes beat u up, really ) and ignored by the central government ( this is a big reason why many people who arent separatists vote Yes; how bad the central government is maniging the situation ). Separatists here are like feminazzis, they only tell fake facts, lies, manipulate children's minds and call for democracy and freedom but dont respect the opinion of other catalans or Spanish ones.
And in the middle of this mess, here we are the indicisive silent majority.
Stand with CATALONIA! The people there should have the right to decide, which way they choose to go! I support CATALONIA to find their own FREEDOM and INDEPENDENCE!
Why would u support a corrupt independence movement of crazy people that go around beating people and burnig spanish and french flags?
If you are not Spanish you cant have an opinion about this.
@@damiann9019 the corrupt mouvement is Spain free catalunia ❤️❤️❤️
@@damiann9019 Because nationalism and nation-states are a false religion.
Here I am A black guy born and made in Catalonia who speaks Castellan (Spanish) and Catalan as a first (mother) language among many others languages... And I can tell you this; in school I was sort of indoctrinated to want independence. But, do I really want it? mmmmm. The problem for me and I think the majority of the Catalans, is that we want to have the right of self-determination to decide to be part of Spain or not. The PP had many opportunities to start talks with the Catalan government but they've wasted their chances, and have sort of alienated some Catalans that did not want independence/ Trump (TOO BAD)
did you experience a lot of bigotry being black in spain? being in america i dont know how blacks are treated in your region. also what brought your family there? thanks
SPORT Thx for clarification. It is obvious lots of arguments only theoretical identity issues involved.
No one serves one logic argument proving serious discrimination from central administration.
Some want to leave Spain & stay in EU which is impossible.
Spain as rest of EU will decide.
Others hate both, despite their wealth is completely dependent on free access to both markets.
Obviously serious brainwashing from some ivory tower academics has huge influence on this movement..
infoguy1978 BLM organisation in Spain should be successful with so many ideological brainwashed youngsters!
You'll momentarily observe how successful old fat disgusting white men has been arriving Europe..
Lots of reasons to hate these successful achievements!!
Were you also indoctrinated to see Spaniards from other regions as inferior or beneath you just because Catalonia is the wealthiest region? This is not a rhetorical question, I am genuinely curious.
infoguy1978 Ask yourself the same question... Did you? In a western Country? Of cause I did experience a lot of bigotry, but as a child I did not know what it was, I have to say though, I've really enjoyed my childhood! And as you grow up perceptions tend to change specially in this age we're living now. All my friends are white, I was the only black in my school, even now at the University (college), my friends still my friends and they treat me like one of them because we grow up together. So to put it very easy to you, I'm so much part of this culture that the only difference between my friends and I is the colour of my skin. In regards to my family question, unfortunately I won't be able to answer that question completely because that's a private matter, all I can tell you is this. There are also Africans Europeans not just Africans Americans, as I said before I speak many languages but none of them is African, they're all Europeans; English (British), French, Spanish (Castellan), Catalan, and German all as a native. The reason for that is because in the same way Africans Americans date back generations in the US, I too have a long black history in Europe, my family is spread all over Europe. My mother is a black Spaniard (Catalan) and my dad is French black, My grand parents form my mother side are Swiss blacks (Switzerland) and from my dad side British blacks, the list goes one .... Uncle Germans.... hope that answer your question. :)
Rudi Chinchilla
Hace 1 segundo
i AM FROM COSTA RICA AND I DEFFEND SPAIN. HOW COME YOU GUYS WHEN CATALONIA HAS ENJOYED A HIGH STANDARD OF LIVING YOU JUST WANT TO DENIAGRATE A COUNTRY WITH SUCH AN ILLUSTRIOUS PAST, A WONDERFUL DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM AND ONE THAT HAS CARED FOR YOUR REGION. WHY DON T YOU TELL EM HOW YOU D RATHER PAY ALL THE REGION S DEBT TO SPAIN THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS OBTAINED THROUGH THE EU? THE COUNTRIES OF EUROPE, IT S DAUGHTERS FROM LATIN AMERICA, LIKE MEXICO, ARGENTINA COLOMBIA AND MY COUNTRY WHICH HAS THE OLDEST DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM IN LATIN AMERICA, WE ALL OPPOSE YOU , WE RE CLEAR OF HOW YOU ACTED, CHEATING THE POLITICAL SYSTEM AND CHEATING SPAIN , YOU RE ONE OF A KIND POPULIST WHO JUST WANTS TO SPLIT THE COUNTRY , GET A SPOIL OF SPAIN, QUITE AN ENEMY TO SPANIARDS WHO WON T , I HOPE LET CATALONIA TO SECEDE BECAUSE IT WILL BRING ABOUT DETRIMENTAL CONDITIONS TO THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. SPAIN HAS POWER AND YOU KNOW IT . I HOPE IN THE END THE ARMY WILL TAKE OVER IF NECESSARY, MANY SPANIARDS I GUESS WANT IT THAT WAY THROUGH A REVOLUTIONARY PROCESS IF NECESARY. SOMETIMES WE NEED TO DEFEND DEMOCRACY EVEN IF NECESSARY BY GUNS. .TRY TO DO IT IN FRANCE OR ITALY OR GERMANY OR MEXICO,IF THEY LL LET YOU DO IT , BECAUSE THEIR CONSTITUTIONS DO NOT ALLOW IT. DO NOT YOU DO IT OF IN THE US, TRUMP WILL JUST DISAPPEAR YOU FROM THE EARTH OR CANADA WITH QUEBEC. YOU RE A DANGEROUS MAN, A POPULIST ,ANOTHER MADURO OR ORTEGA !!!!!
I am terribly SAD. I usually read The Economist to find out about how things are going on in other countries from around the world. Although I know that some obscure interests are always behind any media I have always deemed The Economist to be trustworthy in general, not in terms of opinion but in terms of how they state the facts. I just watched this video out of curiosity (being a Spaniard, I know the facts better). To my dismay, there are several INEXPLICABLE mistakes or omissions, two of them simply unacceptable:
1. Mistake: Catalonia has NEVER been an independent country (during the Reconquista, the COUNTY of Barcelona (much smaller than today's Catalonia) and the Kingdom of Aragon were unified under a single dynasty -by marriage- creating the Crown of Aragon in 1162; in 1469 another dynastic familial union took place, between the Crown of Aragon and the Crown of Castile, which led to what would become the Kingdom of Spain).
2. Omission: The binding referendum that the Catalan independence movement want to hold is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.
These are facts and The Economist have deeply disappointed me - I will have to be much warier when reading them.
PS: I am personally in favour of further talks to reach a compromise and I don't really mind Catalonia becoming independent if this is really the will of the majority.
It is hard to sympathize with this independence movement. The separatists want a full-blown state, a state of rules, and yet it does not want follow the rules of the state it belongs to, thinking it can get away with it. This means respecting the Spanish constitution and its courts, which means every resident of Catalonia is treated just like any other Spanish citizen, no more, no less. It already enjoys a high-degree of autonomy: its own parliament, control over security (Mossos) and use of the Catalan language. To say that it is the engine of the Spanish economy is just pure arrogance- without Spain and its membership in the EU, Barcelona and the rest of Catalonia would be a third-rate regional destination. No wonder, more than a year after the declaration of the so-called independence, not a single state in the world has recognized Catalonia as an independent state. It is part of Spain, and will remain the that way, period.
I don't even think the word referendum applies. First it's illegal: Not even the president of Spain has the authority to make a referendum in Catalonia: The spanish constitution forbids it. Then the president of Catalonia said last sunday in TV that a 25% participation would be enough for him, which means that half + 1 of that (a 12.5% of positive votes) would suffice him to declare the independence. The constitution of the catalans (the statut, voted by a big mayority) stablishes that in order to change its text you need a qualified mayority of two thirds, or a 66%. Now compare that to a 12.5% to make something as irreversible as an independence declaration.
The fact that is illegal is of paramount importance: People against the independence WILL NOT PARTICIPATE in an illegal "referendum" and that makes it something different: a plebiscite where the only possible outcome is already decided.
And yes... we have that sentimental, populist, marketing idea about "The right to decide" "everything should be open to vote". Well, I strongly disagree. Imagine, just imagine. A Village in Catalonia has a majority of radical muslim population and they invoke their utterly emotional "Right to Decide" to become an independent califate. They just want to vote!! Why do you think it is wrong ? It is because you don't decide upon everything. The limit is the rule of law. As Cicero said: "We are in bondage to the law in order that we may be free."
Javier Reyes why spain can't handle it like the UK did with scottland? I am not sure forcing a nation to be part of you is smart...they ll have no loyalty to spain
I think the "illegal" argument is rather weak. Laws are man-made and subjective, it's not because something is legal that it is right.
In my opinion, independence should require 50% of the entire electorate (half of all eligible to vote) to cast their vote in favour of it rather than merely 50% of voters. In other words, if turnout is 85%, then for independence to be granted, 58.8% would need to vote for it. If turnout is 90%, then it's 55.5%, if turnout is 80%, then it's 62.5%.
There needs to be a clear majority for something as irreversible as this.
First off, independence referendums should be given a special threshold of at least 66% in order to be passed, just to make sure entire regions don't break away from their motherlands just because the economy got a little hiccup.
What are the ethnic Latvians gonna do when the Russians suddenly make up 51% of the Latvian population? Would they allow to be incorporated into Russia by means of a simple referendum?
@yarpen26
I agree there should be a higher threshold but 66% is arbitrary. Why not 60%? Why not 70%? That's why 50% of registered voters is a good measure.
As for your Latvia example, a few things:
- Why would Russians make up 51% of the country? The current share is less than half that.
- It's simplistic to think that because 51% of a territory are Russians, they will necessarily vote to join Russia.
- Who is Russian? These days, people mix and you'll never be able to pinpoint the exact ethnic make up of a country.
- If a majority of people want to join Russia, why would you be against it?
Oh Latvia is nothing to worry about. The Latvian population is growing faster than the Russian one. Russians make up only 25% or something. And Latvian Russians consider themselves distinct from other Russians. They are loyal to Latvia. The EU has more than enough to deal with and will not bother with Catalonia. Plus the turnout was only 44%, and it was an illegal one. This referendum has no legitimacy at all. Sorry Catalonia. You ain't leaving Spain anytime soon. I guess you're stuck with eachother.
Catalonia is Spain.
Catalonia free! Greeting from Tibet
In Canada where Im from one of our biggest concerns when Quebec wanted to seperate was would our dominance in ice hockey sustain...would the spanish futbol team still be a powerhouse? Would a spain without Catalonia beat Portugal on a quest to regain the world title?
what? Can't compare football with a Country
Depends on which players in their top 11 squad from barcelona area speaking catalonian.
Beside I dont know why canada exists at first place, it should just join the usa
what if a region within catalunia vote to remain? will catalunia goverment accept their right to choose, and let them be part of spain?
But if in Lerida for example the majority of people wants to stay with Spain, why would they have to go wi the rest of Cataluña?
@hiponakte is an apologist for the fascists in Madrid. Do not pay attention to his lies and rhetoric.
The argument is, la autodeterminación de los pueblos, or somehting like the right of the people to decide what they want. Even if I can agree with this statement, it's a contradiction. Let me explain it to you. Spain is a whole, catalunia is part of Spain , Catalunia can separete from spain(people can decide) good. Now, Catalunia is a whole, barcelona is part of Catalunia, barcelona can separete from catalunia (what???? no way). Why can't London have and independece referendum? Who decide who can and who can not?
Let say Scotland vote tomorrow and 51% decide to separate from UK, 1% is very few people and very easy that the change their mind. Would it be ok to call for another vote to join the UK again? The whole let's decide everything by voting is a flawed strategy and some leaders take advantange of it, and use it when people have some sentiment, but the thing is people change their mind a lot. Having huge and complicated decision made by uninform and passionated people is not allways the best
I support their right to choose their government, but I believe it's silly to think the region will be in much better shape on its own. Productivity won't increase because of it. Investments as a percentage of GDP probably won't too. They could choose a better path than Spain, but I don't think that will happen. In the end things would be more or less the same. And shame on Madrid for brutally repressing the people. If the gain is not this large for Catalonia, the loss is not that large for Spain too. All this stupid spanish ego shouldn't harm the people.
Great video! But I'd also like to see the possible consequences of this referendum for Catalonia itself. Because people who want independence usually have a hope for a better life, but they really don't realise the consequences that independence can bring: the process of international recognition of independence usually takes a big amount of time, as well as entrance in EU (Catalonia would lose their membership if it proclaims independence). So for a couple of years (at least) they would not be able to travel/work/study in EU and other countries which didn't recognise Catalonia as a state. Before voting each Catalan resident should ask himself if he's ready for this
I see what you're saying, but Catalans would be allowed to study and travel in other EU nations, but they would probably have to possess a Spanish passport, and they'll need to pay more fees to enter into a university. It's not discussed, but I'm hoping they have a plan for their national currency. The Catalan Dollar?
If 90% of the voters want independence, it must mean even the older and wiser ones voted, just by that it's safe to assume they thought it through, I hope :/
Looming brexit effect.
Some catalans want independence because the spanish government has postponed many issues concerning to them for a long time; and now some catalan politicians are taking advantage of that to manipulate the population into a nationalist belonging and absolute rejection of everything outside catalonia. They have designed a master plan to reveal against the spanish government to the point that its so hard to explain what is really going on... not what the “official” sources (like this) say its happening but what really is happening. And in the meanwhile the Spanish government is useless and doesn’t know how to face this problem. At the end Spain will have to override the autonomous catalan government (art.155) which is their last resource and even greater tensions will appear. Not to say that Puigdemont is not even going to jail for his great crimes.
Once again, the population is manipulated and divided by selfish politicians who don’t do their job (administrate their territory and reach agreements to make things work in the best way). So sad.
If Madrid thinks that most people will vote "no" then why it is afraid of a referendum?
Nita It looks like you bet on the losing horse
This is not an act of democracy. Acts of democracy are taken every 4 years by voting our government. Government promote changes of laws which are fixed in the Spanish parliament. There is a way to get the independence of Catalonia, but never by acting alone by themselves.
Question 1: What happen if a town of Catalonia doesn't want to be independent? Catalonia government will allow them to remain part of Spain? ... Really?
Question 2: What happen if the small town where I live, decides to be independent too, arguing that they consider themselves as a different town/country/state? Makes it any sense? Would they have the same rights as Catalonia people? Why not?
I recognize that Catalonia has their own culture and therefore, their own identity. But it is perfectly compatible with being part of Spain. I am Canary, I have my own culture and I do not consider that Spain is damaging my identity.
Why the need of being an independent country? Is it all about money? Sure not?
Moreover, I strongly think that for having a better world, humans have to be more connected between each others, globalization not only in the markets but also for fighting against global injustices for human rights, or by promoting global climate laws, for example.
To conclude, last but not least, a stupid thought:
If I am A, if I am sure and happy of being A, I do not need to break up with B. I do not need even to fight against B if I am sure... and happy... and SAFE... of being what I am. This is just my opinion.
Could someone tell me exactly which section of freedom does the rest of Spain restrict to Catalonia? What right is that one, that is being denied? Which action of their life is forbidden by the police? Are the given privileges at the expense of the other regions, due to nationalist blackmail, not enough spoil?
Two considerations:
1. Only half of the population voted for secessionist parties, from which not all would agree with a truly eventual secession. Stop generalizing so simply.
2. Its not a Catalonia vs Spain thing, dont confuse terms. Catalonia is essentially Spain, its a part of the whole. If you removed cooper from bronze, it wouldnt be called bronze anymore. You cant just refer to them as separated entities. Stop confronting terms and the people behind those terms.
Considering this, my question is: is the so called "freedom" revindicated in this video suggesting that a 40% of the catalans has the right to steal a piece of Spain to the rest of catalans and to the rest of spanish? Is this suggesting the dictature of the minority above the majority?
Unfortunately, most people outside of Spain don't see it that way.
They get most of their information from the media, where's the separatists are portrayed as rightful freedom fighters and Spain as the bad oppressor.
Of course everyone is rooting for the underdog and many people want them to get independence for no other reason, they don't even want to look at the bigger picture of what the consequences of that action will be and that Spain as a country could even break apart if the Catalan separatists succeed, which would give other separatist movements in Spain more momentum and power.
@@fetter.strolch Catalonia belongs to Spain and enyone who supports independence is an idiot
While I think declaring independence would be kind of dumb, holding the referendum was the right thing to do. By holding this referendum Catalonia set a trap for the Spanish government, which they walked right into. It's a no-win situation for the Spanish government. Even if they win they lose.
Independence for Catalonia!! Every people who share a language and a culture and wish to be self-governed ought to be!!
WillyTheComposer Thank you for your support!! Love from Girona.
support for spain
This is a ruse. Secession is about turning it into an Islamic Republic. For a short time, Catalans may have a sense of victory and the illusion of independence. But the huge sums of money that Qatr and Saudi Arabia are devoting to this project - along with the money from Soros-backed groups - this money will quickly bring about total capitulation to Islam, submission to Sharia, eradication of liberty.
Peng rivers, Yes, officially Catalonia is part of Spain at the moment, but what we are hoping for is to be able to live independently from Spain, the same way Denmark, Holland, Finland, etc are doing. We Catalans have strived for this for many years. Hopefully we can finally attain this dream.
Peng rivers, Yes, officially Catalonia is part of Spain at the moment, but what we are hoping for is to be able to live independently from Spain, the same way Denmark, Holland, Finland, etc are doing. We Catalans have strived for this for many years. Hopefully we can finally attain this dream.
There should be a non binding vote approved by both sides in order to reflect the true number of Catalan people in favor of independence. I personally feel its between 45 and 55% really want to break away and the sentiment is at an all time high but we cant know without a vote. Spain is being hypocritical in that they dont even want a vote whether it is binding or not because they know that worst case scenario more than 40% will vote yes and they dont want to have to negotiate anything related to an autonomous Catalonia. So what they do is refuse to participate essentially sabotage attempts to hold a state approved vote and than when things go forward they want the right to say they never approved it. Its classic diversion technique so Catalonia can not only never break free but not even hold a vote.
And then Barcelona should separate from the rest since it would be the richest part of the new state. An so on
idiot logic .
Thats a stupid idea to think. If California seceded from America, some of the northern counties wouldnt stay -_-
Alberto Zambrano No, that's a fallacy. The idea of not seceding because then there would be a sequence of secessions sithin secessions is bogus. Catalonia has a clearly defined identity based on language and culture and this is the basis for a discussion on secession. It is not a whimsical desire to secede.
The argument is, la autodeterminación de los pueblos, or somehting like the right of the people to decide what they want. Even if I can agree with this statement, it's a contradiction. Let me explain it to you. Spain is a whole, catalunia is part of Spain , Catalunia can separete from spain(people can decide) good. Now, Catalunia is a whole, barcelona is part of Catalunia, barcelona can separete from catalunia (what???? no way)
If they all have the same identity, they all will vote to leave, and most polls show that Barcelona will probably vote to stay. Culture is a very generic term, and barcelona culture has very little to do with the culture in a small village of catalunia
In 2005, i once met an unknown backpacker from catalan on my way to Pokhara, nepal. Thanks to the iraq war, I was just onto the world news . I asked him about the situation of Catalan bcoz i knew he was from spain. HIs facial expression was one of the best moment i had ever encountered with foreigners. He shared his displeasure views about the Spain gov and even told me he was something like a member of underground party banned by the gov. Can't forget him sayin enthusiastically I, i, me, Catalan Lol
I hope it's not like Quebec in the 70s. A lot of businesses moved to Ontario
I do actually hope it plays out just like that. Enough with this victimist bullshit. Catalans have been benefited by the central government over other Spanish regions for decades, even centuries (talk about protecting their non-competitive textile industry in the 19th century by applying high tariffs to foreign products).
You're joking right? Centrist parties have restrained their industry and economy for years.
I am not familiar with your arguement. Is there somewhere I can read about it? (e.g. what should I google?)
Quiet Revolution Canada.
Coca-Cola and the most iconical bank of Catalonia "Caixa" have already moved their headquarters
to Madrid. No bussineses wants to leave EU so... obviously they are leaving to the rest of Spain. The big problem is for automovile industry, Nissan and Seat have enormous factories in Catalonia that can´t be moved from one day to another, but they are thinking what to do. Seat (because belongs to Volswagen) maybe close their catalonian factory and move this production to Germany
Go Catalonia! wish your liberal rights and nationalist goals the best.
From the Philippines who's independence was hard fought.
Ah, la leyenda negra ha hecho tanto daño en Filipinas... En fin, pobre panchito inútil
Cataluña es España
1. Economically it would be a disaster since they wouldn’t be in the EU and many business would leave
2. Historically they were part of Aragón, not their own kingdom
3. They aren’t they only region with their own language Galicia has Gallego, Pais Vasco has basque (euskadi), Asturias has Bable (Asturianu), etc.
4. They turn their kids against Spain since they are little without giving them facts
5. They complain about taxes but their police Mossos d’escaudra I think is their name are paid 3x then the rest of Spain and they have their own embassies around the world
Viva España!!!
There is wrong information in the video. First the cataluña deficit is only 0,5% of the gdp (the commercial exchanges shouldnt count). Second there are more reasons like the catalan education or the support of anti system movementes
you LIE.
and Spains Job Growth is mainly in Catalonia.
and if only 41 % want independence ,
why is Spain and Franco suck boy Rajoy, so SCARED of letting it take place .
Hmmmmm ?
SocietyOfTheSpectacl you cannot broke the laws, this is the most important thing in a democracy. if you want to do a referéndum change the laws and then there wouldnt be any problem
SocietyOfTheSpectacl and the information is real, the community that gives more money is Madrid and it is only the 1,6% of the gdp
SocietyOfTheSpectacl read more for understand the situation please
A place is always interdependent on other regions. I don't know much about Spain. But let's say there is a company in Catalonia. It may have branches in other areas of Spain outside Catalonia. If Catalonia is separated from Spain, then that company will suffer a lot.
Independence for Scotland and Wales. Referendum already.
fine with this englishman
4:24 Quebec flags!
D. White I know bro
Catalonia is like a rich brother, and Spain is like a poor brother. Rich brother wants to move out of the house, poor brother who is dependent of rich brother is stopping the rich brother..
Catalonia wants to take the house. Well, a minority of Catalans want, not all or most.
These are the reasons why Catalonia is being OPPRESSED:
- By having their own regional government (where every single politician earns more money than their counterpart in the Spanish central government)
- By controlling the totality of their own public health service (they are actually the region of Spain that has been turning their public health service into a private one the most)
- By controlling their educational system (every single lesson is taught in their regional language; children are only exposed to Spanish language 2 hours a week at school; the regional government decides how History is taught so they can shape children's minds)
- By having their own police corps that operate practically on every single level (they're better paid than their national police counterparts so at the end of the day they know who their allegiance belongs to)
These people are definitely being OPPRESSED...
Lovely, seeing as they have everything set up for them, then going independant will be easy
That's the problem with people. You give them one hand and they want the whole arm.
you are right.
Where are you from ? Do you live in Catalonia ? Well, I already know the answer; "No". You are clearly misinformed. I'm catalan, I'm currently also in school so I can tell you that you're telling LIES, history class isn't shaped in any way and where the helle did you get that we only have 2h of spanish per week ??? Seriously wtf, there are as much classes in catalan as in castellano and in some cases we'll get more hours of spanish if the teachers comes from out of catalonia. Stop bullshiting please
So you're saying there is no opression, neither from Spain, nor from your own government?
In that case, why even bother with independence in the first place? Clearly, you guys are doing just fine.
Excellent! American journalists should learn from this video
Anyone who thinks it's a democratic process, lacks both, culture (doesn't know what "democracy" means) and honesty (doesn't mind the damage on Catalan, Spanish and European people)
shut the fuck up, sheep
A referendum is pretty democratic mate, unless you want to wave about your tiny bit of knowledge about ancient Greece as if it is relevant to modern society.
I agree, it wasn't very democractic of Spain to send an invasion force into Catalan in order to beat up people attempting to take part in an election. Spain is more like a dictatorship pretending to be a democracy but they showed their true colours when they kicked and punch people, young and old.
+Planet Watcher
Dude... What the hell have you been smoking?
+4TheRecord
1) It was not an invasion force by any means.
2) Beat up people who weren't following orders and decided to break the law
3) What makes Spain a dictatorship? The fact that Spain enforces its laws on its own region is not dictatorship.
I think Catalonia will not achieve independence in the form of a new country of Catalonia but they will probably come to some sort of agreement for some higher degree of autonomy and self governance maybe reduce the tax burden from the Central government. Regardless of what happens Catalonia has established to the world they are NOT Spanish. I knew this because I know people of Catalan origin who explained and proclaimed their Catalan identity while they are not even in favor of politically breaking away from Spain they are adamant that they have a distinct identity and want to assert a high level of autonomy and the world now knows about Catalonia like it never did before. The differences are real.
I'm certain there are benefits to this, But there must be risks to doing this.
What I'm asking is: what will happen when Catalonia gets its independence?
chemsou bouaziz out of eu and all international organism. An incrise of the desemployement at 40% and a decrease of 30% of the gdp (the 80% of the exportations goles to eu and spain)
chemsou bouaziz there are no benefits
If there are no benefits then why do they want this?
chemsou bouaziz the problem is that in spain the education is rule by the autonomic governments (autonomics aré like federal states) so they had indoctrinate people in the hate of spain (if you search for videos you can see kids of 5 years puting papers to support referendum on the street) so after 40 years people think that spanish hates catalans
the rest of Spain will wonder which of Madrids corrupt politicians are stealing all their wealth.
Corruption is Rife in madrid.
I don't care whether Catalonia becomes independent or not, but self-determination is the right of all people. Honestly though I think putting up borders based on nationality is similar to racism.
A 10bn Euro gap between the taxes catalans pay and the services they obtain is called... taxation! Imagine a wealthy individual who wanted more return for his or her taxes just because is paying more... maybe being able to vote 10 times in the elections? maybe having his pool built and paid with taxes? A policemen for his property only. Ah! and by the way: Madrid gap is 20bn...
Javier Reyes - Maybe more of Madrid's wealth comes from Spain?
It's funny how the first argument that some people use is that economic gap. I myself have considered always a federalist but it's quite hard to keep thinking this way when a minister says that they want to tell us what languages to speak at school by "spanishizing" the catalan kids, or another gladly says that has utterly destroyed the catalan healthcare system (talking about peoples health here!), or when they say that we can not ban the bull fights, or give free water and electricity to the poor citizens in Catalonia or when we saw that some people of spain cheered the police and ask them to "go for us, and hit them hard" (a por ellos, hostias como panes....). And I could go on for a while. If it was only for the "spain robs us" motto, independence movements would have never got that popular, it's much much more. And people are kinda tired of it.
Yes, but the fact is that you cannot study in spanish in Catalonia. Spanish being the official language of the country. In Catalonia, Catalan is obviously cooficial, but the harsh reality is that you cannot study in spanish. The more you can get is 2 hours per week. When confronted with that, the Catalan government says that catalan students are proficient in Spanish and for that THEY MANIPULATE THE EXAMS. Just read this study to see how they do it in order to fake their proficiency in spanish and justify the abusive usage of Catalan: drive.google.com/file/d/0B9K3QsORGY1ZVHlmMTAyNVR2eHM/edit
That's you reply? You are a complete joke. After all the arguments you come with that? Here take some other sources:
www.elmundo.es/f5/campus/2017/05/17/591b561546163fc2738b4627.html
www.publico.es/espana/realidad-impone-topicos.html
www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2016/06/14/575fcaa2e2704ede158b4639.html
www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20110906/54211211077/el-nivel-de-castellano-de-los-alumnos-de-catalunya-esta-en-la-media-del-resto-de-las-comunidades.html
Dont get nervous. And yes, that's my answer. You were suggesting that central spanish government "invades" catalan education while the reality is that catalan education is completely politisized against anything spanish. And as of your links , you just have not read what I sent you. Have you? Those figures are plain fake. (And my link explains WHY and HOW)
The argument that other countries rely upon their wealthier regions to support their poorer regions doesn't actually explain WHY unity is still beneficial. It's obvious that unity is beneficial for the country as a whole (except for Catalonia) because Catalonia's wealth can be redistributed to the poorer voters in other regions. Equally frustrating is the over-reliance on polls and the suggestion that if there is not a near unanimity among Catalans (solely based upon polls) that a referrendem on the ballot would be irrelevant. Finally, those opposing secession claim that the idea should be rejected because it is relatively new and stems from the education system's influence on Millennials-which still doesn't explain why secession is a bad idea for Catalonia. If anything, Spain's pushback against the secessionists will only galvanize international support for the movement.
My heart and my soul is with the people of Catalonia. Greetings from Bosnia and much love!
X i x Thank you for your support! Love from Girona!
X i x If Catalonia declares its independence there will be violence do people honestly think they really think Spain will let them leave no. Spain will bring in there army and suppress this idea of freedom Catalonians have.Which could led to war.
Why?
Max O'Faolain
Why what?
kevin bonilla
Spain can't bring in the army, Catalonia can leave if it wants, but EU won't let them I'm afraid. Nevertheless the people have my full support, if I could I'd help somehow but I can't.
Nation is for wealthier; nationalism is for poorer. Go on Catalan and let's see the end point.
4:24 random Quebec flag
I say that there should be a referendum, instead of shutting the people up and oppressing them. That being said if they get a referendum and independence, then they have to get rid of Peudgemont
Catalonia as a new member state would be awesome!
odd how your comment is not TOP, and above others with less thumbs.
Do you think the economist is Biased ?
Shoulders of Giants EU does not accept you without Spanish acceptance.
They are still part of EU, no matter what you are looking for..
Get your facts straight, before stirring chaos
Do you remember the Daryl Morey's freedom of speech? Remember the riots in Hong Kong? Have you learned the "be water" tactics? So please respect the internal affairs of each country and give up double standards. Only the people of their own country can understand their national affairs best. Otherwise, When an avalanche occurs, no snowflake is innocent.
You know what this means, no more Real Madrid Barca clasicos. That is sad. The problem is always nationalism of both sides is dividing the people in our country.
waterglass21 So you consider football more important than our language and culture and more important than running our own affairs? That is what is truly sad.
palimpsestransparent no it's just an example of the responsibilities that come with independence (sport has also to become separeted from the rest of Spain and therefore it will suffer the consequences of nationalism) That is all I am saying.
palimpsestransparent nobody is prohibiting your language or culture, you have your writters, fiests and own folklore (as other nations in Spain like Castilla, Asturias, Vasque country etc) The independence IMO is not about culture but about power.
waterglass21 It's more complex than that. I am 43 and have been pro-independence since I was 17 and have friends and family who have also been pro-independence for many years. I can assure you that in our cases it has more to do with preserving our language and culture than gaining power.
palimpsestransparent Im not saying your case but the politics and high class im Cataluña wants more power. Independents movement has been fueled by the money IMO
One mistake, they didnt have an army and own police that works on its own state power, meaning, if the madrid police were to raid, the catalonia police can stand their with their guns and say, come try .
"The people should not be forced to live within the control of a ruling class they don't agree with." Especially when Rajoy's PP party are the direct descendants of Franco's dictatorship and the judges ruling against Catalonia were also serving Franco's fascist , brutal dictatorship.
As an example watch at 1.03 as the Franco-Madrid-thug spits at a woman :- ruclips.net/video/xfv9CEVqZbs/видео.html
Spot on.
Good post.
vinm300 What you say is just not true, the PP is the party that has gotten us out of our biggest crisis and has nothing to do with fascism. Please stop saying idiot things because people may believe what you say
The PP (People's party) was founded by Franco's Minister Fraga who supported an extremely gradual transition to democracy. It was founded by a fascist. What is untrue about that. Look it up on Wikipedia. The judge who is making the rulings also served in the Franco dictatorship : he was a Police Chief. Many people in Spain want to forget the past but if you do not want a return to authoritarian rule you should acknowledge it.
Many say there's no need for independence,however in political views many states might need money back to founds on its state's . For instance if your spouse was the leader of your family and everyone has to pay him or her 50% of your income just to support your country your spouse might be spending that hard work income and other states say it's not fare when their money is for support and the leader gets spend it when no one proclaims their earn .
Europe, remember how you destroyed Yugoslavia, recognized the independence of Kosovo! Europe supported the separatists on the territory of Russia calling them "fighters for freedom", (in reality these were ordinary terrorists). I hope the process will continue and Europe will get many more points of separatism. This is a punishment for your hypocrisy and double standards.
As a person looking from the outside, not having a favorable I'll opinion between one or another, if the referendum is illegal how can Catalonia legally decide if they want to be independent. I strongly believe is self government and if Catalonians do not feel represented by Spain, they should have a right to leave in a legal manner. So, if the referendum is illegal, what is the legal way to do it?
I support any separatist movement under any reason, any time.
The people should not be forced to live within the control of a ruling class they don't agree with.
comparing catalonia with isis ...
You are a moron! Only 41% will vote yes. Majority rules. Grow up.
'Any reason, any time' is a dangerous statement that can quickly lead to complete anarchy.
Only we Spaniards know what has been happening in Spain. The competence on education is in Catalonia's hands. This fact allows them to tell children lies about their history, and to grow a feeling of hatred towards the rest of Spain.
If you don't believe me, get a book of history from the Catalonia's educational system. You'll see it on your own
José Adrián García Sánchez totally agree in Canada we have the same problem with there French Provence off Quebec. Twice they have tried to leave. Twice they have lost the referendum. My prayers are with you that your country stays strong and United.
If what they say is true that the majority of Catalans don't favor independence then why not let them vote freely, just as happened in Scotland and Quebec. The bottom line is Madrid is very afraid of losing a wealthy region such as Catalonia and what it will mean for the other regions such as the Basques, this is the harsh reality.
Why don't Germany allows Bavary to vote? Why the USA did not allow South Carolina to secede?
Free Catalonia!
Fuck Cacalonia.
Catalonia will forever be an independent state, with their own language and culture. And I assume they want Napoleon instead of the evil Franco!
For everybody to know the real gap between paid taxes and returned sevices and investings is 8% of Catalonia GDP (20 billion EUR)
Go Catalonia!