The cleaning water being turned into wine has even more theological significance if you consider the Last Supper. Jesus says that the wine is his blood. And the Bible says that Jesus blood cleanses us from our sins. Hence the cleansing water was changed into Jesus' cleansing blood. I don't know if this was intentional by John or not, but it sure makes a lot of sense.
That's why it's called a, "Miracle": "A highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment." by the very definition it would be impossible to interpret. Since you can't believe it, we can just say he added grape juice powder. Since the king was already drunk he couldn't tell the difference.
Is there a further connection with the original use of the stone jars? As they were used in purification rituals (for menstruation and excretion etc), is it also a symbol of the change from Judaism to Christianity? The latter being an improvement (or purification) of the former?
While you are wondering about the jars, did you notice the elephant in the room? How did Jesus get wine from water? Isn't that piece of text much more interesting than the nature of jars? How do you interpret that? Hello? Anyone?
@Squagnut Would this not be true of any interpretation? How would you determine the validity of any? Do you have a particular interpretation you consider valid?
but what is does show is that IF it did happen it probably happened in the time of Jesus's life because that's what time frame they appear in, not so much other time frames.
Bear in mind the language of the time was full of allegory, so it's entirely possible early readers may have interpreted the event as the metaphor described in the video rather than literally happening. Another classic example is the birth narratives: the writers had to place his birth in Bethlehem (heir to David), but he was known to be a Nazarene. If he was the son of God, Joseph couldn't be his biological father. Based on these elements, two completely different narratives were written.
That is what you get when locals write the thing. Any fiction written in New York would contain anecdotes of taking lifts in cabs, living in tiny apartments and riding in subways. The details SHOULD be consistant with the location where it is set, if the writers lived in the same place, even if it is decades after the events supposedly happened.
Ok, so you found a bunch of jars that date back to the period when Jesus was allegedly alive (which is also the same period the verses were written, and also the same period that jars like those would be in existence in other households). How do you go from that to proving water was changed into fine wine?
@duffry I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "valid". I don't believe in any Biblical miracles, so in that sense I don't think the water-into-wine story is *true*. But I know what effect this story had on me as a young child, and that's the only benchmark I have for its validity - it made me think that Jesus is a very special man, capable of "real" magic. I didn't have much sense of symbolism when I was 4.
No, but to an extent it strenghtens the anecdote offered within the bible saying that such things did happen because it gives a little bit more of a factual historical basis for them. Strengthening source reliability is exactly what history is about, unlike science you can't go out and empirically test things to the point where the chances of it being wrong are negligible; it's nigh impossible to prove any historical fact in an absolute manner.
Well, you have Mesopotamia, (Tigris/Euphrates rivers) where Abrahamic, Sumerian and Babylonian flood myths come from, Egypt (the Nile) masaii (rift valley), India (indus valley), China (yellow river), Malaysia (prone to Indian Ocean tsunamis) Hopi (grand canyon) Australian aboriginal (many dry creek beds can be suddenly inundated and become inland seas very quickly) and tropical mesoamerica. ALL these areas are prone to flooding, either seasonal or tsunami related.
I don't think they were used for weddings. As the man in the video said, they were for purification. They probably were just standing around till needed.
Yeah well no historian says the bible is infallible... I don't know about these jars, maybe they have some very odd, but consistent properties found throughout all the different types in the locations mentioned in the video fitting the depiction in the bible, I don't know, not much of a jar expert myself.
This video is not supposed to be the end all argument for Christianity. I just shows a was that the Bible lines up with one specific archeological find. It's to strengthen the Christian's faith not attack any other belief.
They are ubiquitous amongst certain kinds of peoples: Peoples that lived in river valleys and areas prone to tsunamis. Not, for example, in mountain and desert areas, or jungle areas where such floods are annual occurrences. But in areas where floods that seem to cover all the land are once-in-a-hundred-year occurrences. Then the stories get passed down, of Grandfather's lucky escape from the flood, and each generation gets more exaggerated.
@duffry I'm not talking about legitimate theists/atheists with whom one may have a heated (but civilized) debate. I'm talking about the trolls who spout obscenities at and attack anyone who happens to believe in god, and wish to discuss the matter.
And yet many cultures throughout the world have their own versions of the great flood story. Also, the Mediterranean Sea was once dry land until the land that was once at the Straight of Gibraltar collapsed. By that theory of the great flood, it never did drain away. They just found land. Regardless of whether or not you believe in the Bible, there is evidence that such a flood really could have happened.
@Squagnut Haha! Yes, Jesus seemed to be fierce fond of the wine. It's even on tap in heaven (well, it would hardly earn the name otherwise!). As for the symbolism, I know what you mean there. We are very much wired to find patterns. Without that trait how would we occupy our theologians, bible scholars and scrabble enthusiasts!
@DaithiDublin I'd say that's doubtful, but it's easy to see the temptation to interpret it that way. But, from the other side, one could just as validly interpret it as a symbol that where Judaism brought cleansing and purification, Jesus brought copious quantities of alcohol. Apparent symbols are false friends, because humans tend to see what they want to see.
@AtheistKharm Well that's good. Most interactions I've had with "atheists" on the internet have been extremely hostile. It's rare to see civil conversations between theists and atheists, or even between agnostics and atheists. Especially on youtube! Most people will dislike well-made videos just because they don't agree with the subject matter that's being covered, even when the author isn't trying to proselytize or make a strong statement.
Ok, my reasoning was since there are hundreds of flood stories, not all of the stories would have come from coastline and river valley areas. That's all I know about flood stories and sorry for being rude. I do believe in a universal flood and that there is layer upon layer between where Noah walked and where we walk today.
The significance of this video is not, as others have argued, to demonstate the mirical true. After all, this is an impossbile task to do. However, what it does show is the date the book was written and the wealth of knowledge the writer had about the time. It also rules out "some" arguments that would work to discredit the bible historically.
According to the quote at 3:19 Jesus provided 6 jars each full of 20-30 gallons of wine for a wedding party. Or in other words he chipped up an donated roughly 546 litres, 730 bottles or half a tonne of top grade booze to get things rocking. That's a heck of lot! I assume God knew his son supported binge drinking;-)
Of course, if this WAS to happen, it would have happened in jars such as these, as they were the ones they used, so when writing the bible, they would have known the traditions of 1st century Judaea, mostly because they lived there.
@DaithiDublin Aw now, give humanity a break! Just a few dozen generations ago, humans would have been well advised to be terrified of pretty much everything - seeing things which are not there is a good survival trait. And yes, Jesus liked a drop. The Bible's editors left some bits out, I'm sure. They quoted him (sorry, Him) as saying "Drink this. It is my blood," but missed out when He added "... you're me besh fkin pal, you are".
@donttouchmewhereipee: For someone to suggests that Hitchens did not have a deep understanding of the philosophy, contextual meanings, and psychological impact of the bible is an immediate indication of that persons complete lack of knowledge about Hitchens' education, span of literary knowledge, writings, and speeches. In the words of Hitch: "You strike me as someone who has never read the arguments against your own position".
If there was a universal flood, there would be ONE uniformly thick layer across the entire planet, every single river valley and delta would have it, and every single upland area would have exactly the same pattern of erosion at that exact time. Without exception.
I don't know if flooding the world can be considered a miracle. At one time the world was considered flat. If you take that into consideration it's not impossible to believe that they believed the entire world was flooded. I cannot prove it rained for 40 days and 40 nights and flooded the entire world, and you can't disprove it either. All I can tell you is to look at things realistically, and ask is THAT possible. In my opinion it is.
Why are people unable to discuss their viewpoints as opposed to resorting to condescension? I have nothing against conversation, I love hearing/learning about theology, but I hate reading pages of inane banter from either side as opposed to professional and adult discussion. Now go ahead and yell at me to, it only proves me right
You don't have to take everything in the bible so literal. It would be impossible(or likely not probable) for it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights across the entire world. They traveled for that long and roughly landed in the same region. So if you're looking for truth, the more, "realistic" approach would be to try disclaim that a great flood happened in that region, and not Worldwide.
@Falcrist The problem of the moderates not ridiculing the more extremist seems to be a problem in every movement that I can think of. Anyways I usually don't notice it b/c I'm not looking for it, but if I do I'll be sure to ridicule.
how does it feels to argue with a dog about quantum physics? well, you wont get a much different result if you do that with a believer....it's a matter of ignorance, it's not something you can cure with just education once it's installed in the persons mind, that system of thought defends itself by believing anything by just feeling like it because they learned to feel instead of thinking, so when they think something is bad it's not because they can prove it, it's just because they feel like it
@Falcrist Well, I wonder how those interactions turned so hostile when you start off with a passive-aggressive comment that is salted with loaded language and assertions. Take an introspective look at what you're saying before you cry foul.
I don´t think they claim that it´s a proof, as far as I understand it. I think they are that excited about the jars because, if it happened, it must have been in jars like those. I always get to think that the bible is a collection of funny incidents. Like in this case, Jesus has to get wine, but just says "Oh, just give ´em those jars with the washing water. It´ll be fine." and then the master samples it, spews all over the table and says ironically "Well thats the best wine ever! lol" :D
pretty good actually, i'm happy, i'm more than happy, and i feel like i have purpose in my life. even if there is the possibility that this is false, God, or what you believe is the false belief and faith in a wholly imaginary being, has still done too much good in my life to be discounted by me. if it was not for God i would literally be dead right now.
Maybe a few bars of soap and an instruction manual on how to make it would have been more helpful to Mankind than a f***** shedful of wine. Just saying!
The cleaning water being turned into wine has even more theological significance if you consider the Last Supper. Jesus says that the wine is his blood. And the Bible says that Jesus blood cleanses us from our sins. Hence the cleansing water was changed into Jesus' cleansing blood.
I don't know if this was intentional by John or not, but it sure makes a lot of sense.
That's why it's called a, "Miracle": "A highly improbable or extraordinary event, development, or accomplishment." by the very definition it would be impossible to interpret. Since you can't believe it, we can just say he added grape juice powder. Since the king was already drunk he couldn't tell the difference.
Is there a further connection with the original use of the stone jars? As they were used in purification rituals (for menstruation and excretion etc), is it also a symbol of the change from Judaism to Christianity? The latter being an improvement (or purification) of the former?
While you are wondering about the jars, did you notice the elephant in the room?
How did Jesus get wine from water?
Isn't that piece of text much more interesting than the nature of jars?
How do you interpret that? Hello? Anyone?
@Squagnut Would this not be true of any interpretation? How would you determine the validity of any?
Do you have a particular interpretation you consider valid?
but what is does show is that IF it did happen it probably happened in the time of Jesus's life because that's what time frame they appear in, not so much other time frames.
The channel is just analyzing the text and showing what it meant when it was written, not making an argument.
@Lawlessuk Har har! Well, given a 20 gallon capacity they were probably for long term use!
Thank you, Bibledex!!! I enjoy your videos, which have taught me a lot.
Bear in mind the language of the time was full of allegory, so it's entirely possible early readers may have interpreted the event as the metaphor described in the video rather than literally happening. Another classic example is the birth narratives: the writers had to place his birth in Bethlehem (heir to David), but he was known to be a Nazarene. If he was the son of God, Joseph couldn't be his biological father. Based on these elements, two completely different narratives were written.
That is what you get when locals write the thing. Any fiction written in New York would contain anecdotes of taking lifts in cabs, living in tiny apartments and riding in subways. The details SHOULD be consistant with the location where it is set, if the writers lived in the same place, even if it is decades after the events supposedly happened.
Ok, so you found a bunch of jars that date back to the period when Jesus was allegedly alive (which is also the same period the verses were written, and also the same period that jars like those would be in existence in other households). How do you go from that to proving water was changed into fine wine?
@duffry I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "valid". I don't believe in any Biblical miracles, so in that sense I don't think the water-into-wine story is *true*. But I know what effect this story had on me as a young child, and that's the only benchmark I have for its validity - it made me think that Jesus is a very special man, capable of "real" magic. I didn't have much sense of symbolism when I was 4.
No, but to an extent it strenghtens the anecdote offered within the bible saying that such things did happen because it gives a little bit more of a factual historical basis for them. Strengthening source reliability is exactly what history is about, unlike science you can't go out and empirically test things to the point where the chances of it being wrong are negligible; it's nigh impossible to prove any historical fact in an absolute manner.
Well, you have Mesopotamia, (Tigris/Euphrates rivers) where Abrahamic, Sumerian and Babylonian flood myths come from, Egypt (the Nile) masaii (rift valley), India (indus valley), China (yellow river), Malaysia (prone to Indian Ocean tsunamis) Hopi (grand canyon) Australian aboriginal (many dry creek beds can be suddenly inundated and become inland seas very quickly) and tropical mesoamerica. ALL these areas are prone to flooding, either seasonal or tsunami related.
Exactly what I'm thinking. It's just repeating what's in the text - what's the point of doing this. It tell us nothing.
I don't think they were used for weddings. As the man in the video said, they were for purification. They probably were just standing around till needed.
Yeah well no historian says the bible is infallible... I don't know about these jars, maybe they have some very odd, but consistent properties found throughout all the different types in the locations mentioned in the video fitting the depiction in the bible, I don't know, not much of a jar expert myself.
This video is not supposed to be the end all argument for Christianity. I just shows a was that the Bible lines up with one specific archeological find. It's to strengthen the Christian's faith not attack any other belief.
They are ubiquitous amongst certain kinds of peoples: Peoples that lived in river valleys and areas prone to tsunamis. Not, for example, in mountain and desert areas, or jungle areas where such floods are annual occurrences. But in areas where floods that seem to cover all the land are once-in-a-hundred-year occurrences. Then the stories get passed down, of Grandfather's lucky escape from the flood, and each generation gets more exaggerated.
@Holammer These conversations seem to be hostile with or without my help.
@duffry I'm not talking about legitimate theists/atheists with whom one may have a heated (but civilized) debate. I'm talking about the trolls who spout obscenities at and attack anyone who happens to believe in god, and wish to discuss the matter.
And yet many cultures throughout the world have their own versions of the great flood story. Also, the Mediterranean Sea was once dry land until the land that was once at the Straight of Gibraltar collapsed. By that theory of the great flood, it never did drain away. They just found land. Regardless of whether or not you believe in the Bible, there is evidence that such a flood really could have happened.
I'm shocked at the lack of dislikes and comments by "atheist" trolls. It's probably a positive reflection on the video. :)
Interesting!
@THExXKuBa It feels amazing!
@iseeredppl jesus?
must have been a huge wedding.
@Squagnut Haha! Yes, Jesus seemed to be fierce fond of the wine. It's even on tap in heaven (well, it would hardly earn the name otherwise!). As for the symbolism, I know what you mean there. We are very much wired to find patterns. Without that trait how would we occupy our theologians, bible scholars and scrabble enthusiasts!
@DaithiDublin I'd say that's doubtful, but it's easy to see the temptation to interpret it that way. But, from the other side, one could just as validly interpret it as a symbol that where Judaism brought cleansing and purification, Jesus brought copious quantities of alcohol. Apparent symbols are false friends, because humans tend to see what they want to see.
@AtheistKharm Well that's good. Most interactions I've had with "atheists" on the internet have been extremely hostile.
It's rare to see civil conversations between theists and atheists, or even between agnostics and atheists. Especially on youtube!
Most people will dislike well-made videos just because they don't agree with the subject matter that's being covered, even when the author isn't trying to proselytize or make a strong statement.
Ok, my reasoning was since there are hundreds of flood stories, not all of the stories would have come from coastline and river valley areas. That's all I know about flood stories and sorry for being rude. I do believe in a universal flood and that there is layer upon layer between where Noah walked and where we walk today.
@Falcrist I liked the video and found the whole thing interesting.
The significance of this video is not, as others have argued, to demonstate the mirical true. After all, this is an impossbile task to do. However, what it does show is the date the book was written and the wealth of knowledge the writer had about the time. It also rules out "some" arguments that would work to discredit the bible historically.
According to the quote at 3:19 Jesus provided 6 jars each full of 20-30 gallons of wine for a wedding party. Or in other words he chipped up an donated roughly 546 litres, 730 bottles or half a tonne of top grade booze to get things rocking. That's a heck of lot! I assume God knew his son supported binge drinking;-)
Amen!
Do these guys actually believe someone turned water into wine a long long time ago?...
Wow man
John2:6 mentions firkins not gallons. So one firkin is 10 gallons in todays measure apparently. Firkin awesome !
Of course, if this WAS to happen, it would have happened in jars such as these, as they were the ones they used, so when writing the bible, they would have known the traditions of 1st century Judaea, mostly because they lived there.
this two have something in between
@DaithiDublin Aw now, give humanity a break! Just a few dozen generations ago, humans would have been well advised to be terrified of pretty much everything - seeing things which are not there is a good survival trait.
And yes, Jesus liked a drop. The Bible's editors left some bits out, I'm sure. They quoted him (sorry, Him) as saying "Drink this. It is my blood," but missed out when He added "... you're me besh fkin pal, you are".
@donttouchmewhereipee: For someone to suggests that Hitchens did not have a deep understanding of the philosophy, contextual meanings, and psychological impact of the bible is an immediate indication of that persons complete lack of knowledge about Hitchens' education, span of literary knowledge, writings, and speeches. In the words of Hitch: "You strike me as someone who has never read the arguments against your own position".
If there was a universal flood, there would be ONE uniformly thick layer across the entire planet, every single river valley and delta would have it, and every single upland area would have exactly the same pattern of erosion at that exact time. Without exception.
I don't know if flooding the world can be considered a miracle. At one time the world was considered flat. If you take that into consideration it's not impossible to believe that they believed the entire world was flooded. I cannot prove it rained for 40 days and 40 nights and flooded the entire world, and you can't disprove it either. All I can tell you is to look at things realistically, and ask is THAT possible. In my opinion it is.
How does it feel asking profoundly uninteresting questions?
That stone jars were found only proves that there were stone jars. It does not prove that all this happened.
Why are people unable to discuss their viewpoints as opposed to resorting to condescension? I have nothing against conversation, I love hearing/learning about theology, but I hate reading pages of inane banter from either side as opposed to professional and adult discussion. Now go ahead and yell at me to, it only proves me right
You don't have to take everything in the bible so literal. It would be impossible(or likely not probable) for it to rain for 40 days and 40 nights across the entire world. They traveled for that long and roughly landed in the same region. So if you're looking for truth, the more, "realistic" approach would be to try disclaim that a great flood happened in that region, and not Worldwide.
@Falcrist The problem of the moderates not ridiculing the more extremist seems to be a problem in every movement that I can think of. Anyways I usually don't notice it b/c I'm not looking for it, but if I do I'll be sure to ridicule.
how does it feels to argue with a dog about quantum physics?
well, you wont get a much different result if you do that with a believer....it's a matter of ignorance, it's not something you can cure with just education once it's installed in the persons mind, that system of thought defends itself by believing anything by just feeling like it because they learned to feel instead of thinking, so when they think something is bad it's not because they can prove it, it's just because they feel like it
>how does it feel to have no meaning to your life at all?
false, people give meaning to their life themselves.
@Falcrist I agree, this video is historically and socially interesting but religiously bland. Possibly a good thing.
... and nobody in this video was inferring this.
@Falcrist Well, I wonder how those interactions turned so hostile when you start off with a passive-aggressive comment that is salted with loaded language and assertions. Take an introspective look at what you're saying before you cry foul.
I don´t think they claim that it´s a proof, as far as I understand it.
I think they are that excited about the jars because, if it happened, it must have been in jars like those.
I always get to think that the bible is a collection of funny incidents. Like in this case, Jesus has to get wine, but just says "Oh, just give ´em those jars with the washing water. It´ll be fine." and then the master samples it, spews all over the table and says ironically "Well thats the best wine ever! lol" :D
pretty good actually, i'm happy, i'm more than happy, and i feel like i have purpose in my life. even if there is the possibility that this is false, God, or what you believe is the false belief and faith in a wholly imaginary being, has still done too much good in my life to be discounted by me. if it was not for God i would literally be dead right now.
@BeortheMad it surely sounds like they do lol. crazy people
@prezoftheworld Assuming that the Bible is a true book, chill out.
why you mad, bro?
this guy is so epically cute.
Maybe a few bars of soap and an instruction manual on how to make it would have been more helpful to Mankind than a f***** shedful of wine.
Just saying!
Jesus had some Soda Stream Vimto concentrate. mystery solved.