**DISCLAIMER** Based on seeing some of the first comments I wanted to make it clear that we respect Jens and the Bogren team and would prefer everyone to keep things respectful. I think the concept of their product is super interesting and different and more things like this should exist. However all the data that I've studied (for more than a decade making premium IRs as a profession) with some of the top people in the modelling industry suggests that even though everyone wants to believe that guitar cabinets react dynamically, it's not a real thing. If it was that first null test would've shown clear signs of pumping which it didn't. So the proof is here in this video and I can get that null test even quieter by matching the volume better during the IR shoot process with the volume during the reamp process. If anything once you start pushing amplifiers you're getting a more compressed sound. This all being said I don't want to affect Bogren in a negative way - I have tons of respect towards them so if you are at all interested in all this try it out for yourself and make up your own mind! Peace! ❤
Mikko, I know some clickbait is necessary for the algorithm and stuff, but if you don't want to affect Bogren in a negative way maybe the phrase "snake oil" on the thumbnail wasn't the best idea, since it is used to describe products that are a scam. I know it's stated as a question, and also you say in the video if someone likes it, it's good (I'm on that boat hahaha I think this made my tone better) but as you see in the comments, people can easily jump to the conclusion that you are "debunking a scam".
@@Emanuel_Flores Mikko was absolutely in the right to expose this scam. I don't care how he did it, I'm just grateful he didn't attempt to swim in cahoots with Bogren like a total shill. We must thank Mikko for this level of transparency, because he could easily take money from Bogren and sell you this IRDX junk like it's the best thing since the sliced bread. I'm sure other channels are already doing this in spades.
Nice look at what IRDX is actually doing, very awesome hearing the real deal speaker drive vs the IRDX plugin so we can get a sense of what happens in the real world. I also thought if the plugin was marketed as a guitar bus sweetener or saturator it would sit a lot nicer with me mentally, but being marketed as speaker dynamics simulation just felt wrong from the first time I heard it. I understand why people would flick it on and hear a positive change of some kind at a glance... but for me personally in the context of a mix there's already stages of saturation, compression etc etc. Slapping this down just equates to another stage of saturation and its another thing to balance in the mix / have to manage to make sure you're not overcooking the audio. All in all it sits in a weird place for me where it's like if you strip back the marketing... do I all of a sudden need extra random saturation processing on my guitars? Not really, ergo... Can probably live without this and continue to use IRs like they've been used for the past 25 years.
@@luisbovleck5173 If you like what it does to the sound, what difference does it make? Is a 5150 amp sim snake oil because there are differences between it and a real 5150?
@@CJ_Wolesz obviously, it was exposed already it doesn't do anything, IRDX, I mean, at least it doesn't do anything of any positive nature to the sound, hence the word "snake oil" is justified. and don't change the subject. we are talking about IRDX right now, not 5150.
I've enjoyed post-mic sat when I've heard others use it. IR's seem to have a static-kinda sound (a tiny bit like a blanket of eq even though that's not what impulse are), and IRDX sounds like it moves them closer to the "air moving" perception, like the impulse is gradually changing one percent each second. Not saying mic recorded is dynamic or pulsing, just that it seem to have a natural, contained sway that it sways within. And IR's sound like they're on one impulse, which they are. This effect and the sat seem to be coinciding but almost seperate.
This video was great! Although, I never considered IDRX in the first place because I’m pretty happy with how my cabs sound. Mega green and freeman are about as perfect as I could ever hope for. I just add saturation in my Ozone suite
This sort of confirms my hesitation towards this plug-in. It feels very much like a BBE Sonic Maximizer/Sonic Stomp, but for impulse responses: It feels a bit snake oil'esque, and you're not really sure what it does. This was a great explanation and demonstration of what the plug-in does. Now, if only someone would do this with the BBE Sonic Maximizer/Sonic Stomp. 😄
You can basically can get the pretty same results with a Preamp Plugin (a 1073 style one). Overdrive the input, bumb the highs a little and that's it. It is what I usually do to get the supposed "liveliness" that the people claim that is lacking... Thanks a lot for debunking the myth!!
SDS did a review on this plugin today. I could not hear any noticeable difference on 3 different systems. I enjoyed watching Jon "work to describe" the "differences" that nobody could possibly hear. I have respect for SDS but this was clearly a PAID advertisement for Bogren. My question to Bogren is this: when you were charging 50.00 for IR packs, did you include this amazing technology? The IRs I bought were the "best metal IRs ever made" according to Bogren. Now Bogren tells me I need a "dynamic modeler thing" after the "best metal IRs ever made." Interesting. We will know the truth on this when Glenn Fricker gets this plugin for free then does "his tests." I'm laughing already.
Just an idea here - take 100 irs for example with same placement then make plugin that change them with the speed of the real moving cab but with no sound pops and its done or just plugin that made very little changes very fast to a static ir
Thank you for running the tests and explaining! I think it's a cool effect, but having recorded lots of IRs and run null tests to check my work, I knew there isn't a dynamic like this between a live cab and an IR.
This was the main purpose of this video. I'm surprised that so many people automatically accept that miked up cabs have dynamics that are not in an IR - ask any premium IR producer and they will say otherwise. I'm not sure what it is but I showed proof of that not being true in this video and still here in the comments quite many people are saying that real cabs affect dynamics. And if we're talking about speaker drive it's compressing - not expanding. This means that it reduces the dynamics rather than adds dynamics. So... I feel like I gave the data and some people are not interested in it but just want to believe in a myth.
@@mlsoundlab The guitar community often prefers their own mythology to the less sexy reality! Anyone who does any "mythbusting" will encounter some oddly angry push back but never contrary testing and science... I do think the idea of saturating and expanding guitar tracks might be cool and useful, but this is a case of smart, if slightly unrealistic marketing. It worked to stir up some controversy and have a lot of people making videos about it, so good job to the guys at Bogren!
I like to see this plugin as a nice and very pleasant saturation for the guitars, like I like tape on drums for example, it won't fix your tone , but if you have a nice tone it can be the Cherry on top.
@@kimseniorb well if we want to be honest a plugin or an ir will never be like the real thing but for most of us plugins and IRS are all we need and this thing makes my tones a lil bit better so I don't really care how they want to sell it , I just like the way it reacts to my tone , that's all
@@constantinranisOf course it can be like the real thing. We are already there on so many levels. Lol. It is only a matter of time until it is perfected.
It's great that you explain all this! There's a point I don't understand at 6:11. You say that null test results in quiet constant hiss, but I can hear the guitar doing notes. Can you explain more about this?
Very helpful tests, however there are other ways to design an IR test. I think the missing part is to compare the IR by playing different things thought it. Using a different guitar and guitar player than the one was used to capture this IR.
I like the sound that IRDX gives. Two Notes has a similar feature in their Wall of Sound plugin. It's obviously saturation tuned to make heavy guitars cut better, which can be a useful thing.
There definitely is a difference (IR vs Miced Cab), the real mic is brighter and a bit more ... "alive". (I guess it's mostly the frequency response though) Interesting comparison :)
There is a difference between the mic’d cab and the IR. The interesting thing is, the difference I am hearing which seems to be in the high mids, is the same thing that made me stop using my Mikko plugin. It’s this thing that I just could not ever dial out. I wish Mikko IRs sound like the mic’d 57 they captured.
@@benburnett8109 from what I understood, there was a mic’d track, then a track with a DI off the amp running through an IR of the set up which to me means the signal chains should be identical. If he did not replicate the signal chain then the null test would be pointless.
The difference between those two is volume in two ways. Volume difference of the IR shoot test signal vs the actual reamp volume. So if either of those is a different volume you will hear a different volume of the room ringing in the null test and that is what you are mainly hearing. When making IRs I can control how much room reflection bleed I get baked in to the IR. In this case I think the mic has more bleed than the IR but it can be the other way around too. For IR packs this gets fine tuned for clean captures. Then I could've spend more time matching those volumes for that comparison so the loudness doesn't fool you into perceiving them to be different.
I don't usually add saturation to distorted guitars but I demoed IRDX anyway. Not for me personally; I think it sounds better on drum loops tbh. Reminds me a bit of Decapitator's tone shaping/saturation.
For me IRDX is useful as an exciter/fattener for some guitar tracks, but I hate that by default it is mostly just louder. I don't think it should be trusted to do much more than be an exciter, but save a default preset with output volume cut slightly to match input so you can toggle it on without just liking it for being louder. I know Kazrog had cab dynamics on Recabinet 4 like 12 years ago - definitely not a new thing.
I tested it out with a bunch of amp sims and I like it on almost everything. It gives you maybe 5% difference. I’m not sure if it’s much better than a saturator and some EQ though. I’ll have to test that out and see if it makes a difference when playing through it.
Try it against the FREE Softube Saturation Knob - that plugin has a similar saturation structure so that should go to show if there's more than just saturation involved.
I tried this thing out and liked what it did. I care very little if it emulates a real effect accurately or not, if I like the effect. That being said, the real speaker drive sounded gnarlier to me. And now that you made me aware, I wish it emulated it more accurately 😂...
come to really think of it, speaker dynamics is probably only going to be a thing if you push the output really hard, which is most likely not something you want in most cases anyway. Which is probably why Celestion DSR (Dynamic Speaker Response) and Kazrog Recabinet didn't really took off after all.
I imagine each company will have a different way of going about it - at it's most realistic, it'll be that speaker drive sound shown in the quiet cab vs loud cab null test. It's not a particularly significant difference, and many times it's adding unwanted noises to your signal. -Kai
to my ears it sounded just like saturation and as he was coming in with "adding harmonic content", case was closed :D but still i couldn't resist on clicking this vid, so thanks for putting in the work ! reasonable clinic investigation, well done !
I like Bogren but in my opinion it sounds like EQ and Pan trick.A bit of 3D in sounds but...Why I should believe that this is the sound of '' moving speaker ''?Try to show a sound of my moving hand and how my hand compress the air.Will you?
As an audio engineer with over 20 years of experience, both professionally and as an passionate enthusiast... I can just say that if you're just recording at home with stuff that you're not intending to release, then you don't need this plugin. But as a recording musician without access to a big expensive studio to record with real cabs and use a cab sim like the two notes torpedo line or if you just wanna use your fractal or quad cortex then yes this plugin is for you. It does make a difference. It gives a depth and a "sizzle" that a real cabinet would produce in a studio recording with dynamic and condensation microphones. And besides, if you dont trust it there's a 14 day free trial to try it out for yourself before you buy.
During the analysis IRDX didn't Show the membrane moving. So I assume it was a ststic state. It would have made sense if the plugin would have been pumping so to speak while it has been analysed. Or am I missing sth.?
Great video! I was planning on doing the exact tests as well, glad that this time is now spared for me haha. After watching a shitload of Dan Worrall's videos i was very, very sceptical of this plugin actually working as advertised. If it helps people to get the sound that they like quicker, then by all means go for it. However, there is no dynamic difference and i think that is important to point out, like you did Mikko.
Excellent video!! When you got out DDMF's Plugin Doctor I knew the truth would be revealed and nothing would remain hidden from its all seeing eye! Great job.
Great info. Like many plugins, it is often about what it is actually doing and if you find it pleasing or useful to what you do. And of course, do you already have a plugin that can do a similar thing in some sort of way!
GREAT video. Scientific, with proper analysis, and to the point. I guess your dog in the race is that people would call out your IR's to be imprecise for not having cooked dynamics, but you show very well that there's nothing new under the sun here. I am an amateur and just cook IR at homes for fun, but I think we have a similar process, and I can attest that your findings mirror mine exactly. BTW, I usually align my signals for null tests using LUFs normalization in Reaper. It's a bit hit and miss depending on the context, but it works well in many cases. Also, a premise of IRDX is kind of that all speakers and cabs will have the same type of dynamics, else it would include different models to be "faithful". I have NOTHING egainst what it does though. Finally, if cabs were non-linear it would absolutely suck to get the sweet spot of tone in practical applications. Speaker are designed to be linear to avoid sounding like crap.
We're definitely biased in the regard that we're defending our own decisions and choices here, though the test should speak for itself. If we did these tests and found our IRs lacking that "moving air" dynamic quality, we would've taken it as a sign to improve what we do. Glad you enjoyed the video! -Kai
Mikko here chiming in too - I feel like many people are missing the data that I gave in the video. I scientifically showed that guitar cabs DO NOT HAVE a lot of dynamics. If anything - when you drive a cab loud it will start to compress with speaker drive which diminishes dynamics. That means less dynamics - not more. Why are so many people here in the comments still saying guitar cabs add dynamics? I don't get it. I have to point out that no other IR producer has ever dared to show their IRs vs a real cabinet in public let alone create a null test in front of everyone to prove the accuracy. The IR format does sort of have attack and decay specifically for every frequency if you keep the IR format raw. However most IR producers sell minimum-phase transformed IRs which means all the raw phase information has been removed from the IRs. If I did this null test with an MPT'd IR it would not null like this at all. You do touch on something important - the sweet spot of the guitar cabinet. I think it's the IR producers job to fine tune microphone positioning and the guitar cab both to their sweet spot. That is a big part of the job.
Mikko, I'm glad you used actual brand names, I think Jens won't be offended to much) I hope to see more of such videos concerning IRs with technical information and comparisons. And hope you will make a Hesu Demon IR pack someday ;-)
I've observed something really new adin' IRDX through Fab Filter Pro analyzer. Many says that eq + compression/expander and so on could do the same..., i'm pretty sure that's true, but I don't see anybody showing how. Anyway IRDX is doin' it through a single instance, obviously not very "tweakable", but I can hear it. Another big thing about IRDX; do a big test through clean and crunchy guitar tracks, on acoustic guitars is wonderfull too and easyer to hear.
With respect, never seen a real mic signal to have an exact same waveform as the IR-ished signal even whith the exact same rig and signal path, like you show in your video (track in yellow and grey)... concerning IRDX, well I could agree with you partially considering what I have listened so far, and analyzing your tests, but obviously we alI have to test it by ourselves with our familiar rigs to determine if it's snake oil or no. Thanks for your video man!
the IR was made on the spot I believe, and he could actually be printing everything at one go, a direct amp signal, a mic signal, and an IR all in a single pass, so the waveforms should be mostly the same.
I can add high shelf EQ instead of buying this plugin. Can't hear anything super original to be honest. I love Bogren stuff and Jens mixing, but it's how I feel about this plugin.
To my ears the IRDX sounds a tad fizzy? Although I’m not a hi-gain metal guy.🤔 Question Mikko: With all the recent content I’ve seen regarding interface hi-z preamp/amp plugin input gain/dbu headroom compensation? What’s your base capture dbu on the ML amp sims? People are starting to say for example on my 2nd gen Scarlett interface (12dbu max), I should perhaps dial my hi-z input gain to zero, and then compensate with the plug-in’s input level? Although the ones I’ve seen claiming this are mainly single coil players?🤔 Thanks in advance! Cheers!
We're of the opinion that you really shouldn't sweat the small stuff in regards to input gain - our plugins are calibrated to -12.5dBu, but really our method to getting the input gain right has remained the same for a long time. Instrument/Hi-Z input engaged, gain on 0. That should give you a good baseline. Previously our method to dialling in input gain was to chug as hard as you can on a guitar with humbuckers, and set the gain on your interface so that the input light in Amped barely starts to blink. This new method ultimately has the same result in a best-case scenario, but it's more reliable to just turn the input gain to 0. -Kai
@@mlsoundlab Allrightythen! I don't believe I could of possibly hoped for a more clear and concise explanative answer than that. Haha! Many thanks! That suddenly made a whole lot more sense, and apparently, I've been somewhat doing it slightly wrong this whole time. (facepalm) Rotflmao!!! The ASPD/ADHD struggle is very real. Anyway... Thanks again for the reply and the learning! Cheers!
Every loudspeaker will generate THD which varies depending on how it is constructed. Impulse Responses are just snapshots of the frequency response of the speaker and don’t capture any of the nonlinear behaviour. So trying to simulate the nonlinear characteristics in a general way has to be more realistic. Of course, trying to hear the 10% THD that the speaker is producing when the amp is producing 100%THD is pointless.
Thanks for explaining what is going on in with the sound with this plug in applied. Is there any alternative way to achieve this with "basic" plugins or something you think would get us similar results minus the aliasing/higher end. I guess what I really wanna know is how to get those "depth of speaker movement" in my IRs , would a saturation plug in or pulteq achieve that? I tried the plug in , I liked it , I think , I think my ears are ruined by 23 years of playing loud music, bu I think I felt more depth and I would like to add that to my production.
For saturation I recommend the FREE Softube Saturation Knob as it has somewhat similar saturation to IRDX but no aliasing/noise... and it's free. As for achieving speaker drive it's compression and darker. Likely odd harmonics would be better so Fabfilter Saturn or Karzog True Iron - those have odd harmonic modes so a beefier type of saturation. I would question that speaker drive is always what you want. With current tools use tilt EQ into an odd harmonics saturator and fine tune your guitar brightness into a mix. This way you get exactly what you need rather than something random?
That's good! There is a difference, this video was more about exploring what that difference actually is, and generally looking into cab dynamics as a whole 🙏 -Kai
Looking at the linear analysis/frequency response of a non linear plugin is barely useful but I guess you know that already. Other than that your analysis seems sound. Looks like a bit of asymmetric clipping and likely some filtering. Normal / intense could be varying the DC offset from what it looks like. I find the fact that it makes the signal louder a bit dodgy but that's the case for a lot of magic 'make things sound better' plugins so. Anyways, thanks for sharing your analysis Miko. :)
I somehow avoided making this video for 6 months ever since people started talking about IRDX - I've been having this conversation with Bogren ever since. Really anything I say about another company will come across awkward. I think it's wrong to say that there's something wrong with the IR format when you can make IRs in so many different ways. F.ex. most people use solid state amps for IR shooting which rolls off the highs and doesn't have a neutral mid range. Being one of the guys who has studied the format with extra focus on making those IRs as real and premium as possible I see this more as a self-defense effort on behalf of everyone who makes amazing clean IRs captured correctly. Most of these comments focus on IRDX but really the main point of this video is me showing what the difference between a GOOD IR and a real cab is. It's not a lot. Then showing what happens when you seriously drive a cab and what it sounds like in comparison. Compression and high end roll off at least with Oranges. Not 8k boosts, expansion and post-saturation. But like I say in the video - it's unclear what their plugin is actually doing when just looking at numbers. To me it sounds like it's mostly just saturation and honestly the FREE Softube Saturation Knob has a similar saturation character without noise+aliasing so that's likely the comparison people should make by themselves. Do you hear something else besides saturation? Why am I the only IR producer with the b... courage to show what my IRs sound like when compared to real cabs? Where are the comparisons from other IR producers comparing their IRs to real cabs and then showing what's missing and showing how IRDX fixes it? Just saying - I can easily be proven wrong and I have no problem admitting if I've been wrong. At least in the comparisons I've made this is the data. I'm always interested in learning new things and I tried to teach people about this stuff with this video.
@@mlsoundlab > I think it's wrong to say that there's something wrong with the IR format when you can make IRs in so many different ways. Depends on what job they are supposed to do. I think there are relatively easy arguments as to why impulse responses are insufficient for simulating the effects of different speakers and cabinets on guitar tone. I guess the biggest part of that is probably that they can't capture the interaction of the variable impedance with the power amp. To make matters worse there isn't agreement over whether the linear parts of that should be captured in the IR or not. I guess that's the root of the whole discussion whether IR should be captured using solid state amps or tubes as well. If they are just there as a tone shaping tool without the purpose of emulating the changes different speakers & cabs make then yeah, there is nothing wrong. And I really like Jens' impulses for jamming. I'd argue the same applies to IRDX, if it's sold just as a tone shaping tool, that's cool. Marketing it as "Speakers are non-linear, and it’s those non-linearities that IRDX faithfully emulates and adds to your amp sim or IR loader." is the dodgy bit. Again going back to the impedance curve, how is IRDX even supposed to know what the impedance curve of the cab in question is, what the topology of the amp is, where the presence and resonance knobs are set. When talking about the speaker similar arguments can be made. There are variables it doesn't know and others it can't control. The claim seems to be a bit absurd. If it was marketed as just another tone shaping tool without the claim that it faithfully emulates something I think it'd be all cool. I like a bit of compression and a bit of saturation/sizzle after the speaker, I guess most people do. :) Not sure whether that's something you are comfortable revealing but just out of curiosity, in your amp sims, how do you model the speaker impedance curve? Is it just a representative cab that you use or does it depend on the cab selected?
@@veers0r Good points! Really people should take a close look at Fractal Audio and how they've approached amp modelling. They are still considered the highest grade of amp modelling for so many reasons. Everything that's non-linear is a part of amp modelling including impedance. Only speaker drive is in the cab block. That's the way our amp sims work too. Amps were designed on specific impedance curves so I model amps with the cabs they were most likely designed on. People might be shocked to know how many of the big amp sim companies use loadboxes for their amp sim impedance even in 2024. Then you're surprised when the tightest amp in the world sounds like a fuzz pedal... this is likely a topic for another video some day. :P It just sucks not being able to talk about this stuff because I'm in this business myself. Well... when I retire or accept one of the offers made for the company I'll start blasting all this information. 🤣
@@mlsoundlabI'd love to hear some more behind the scenes stuff from you. I've only heard rumors about it so far. Really enjoyed cliffs notes on the axefx forums as well. But I guess the audience for that is rather small.
Notice the low-end chugs stick out in the loud cab/IR null. That's what I would expect. The slight loss of highs could be the result of the speaker coil heating up and increasing resistance, and/or maybe air pressure compression on the cone. The aliasing is bit annoying. Does it happen at higher sample rates, or does it always run internally at 44.1k or 48k?
Full disclosure: I'm a Bogren fanboy, but this video confirms exactly what I thought I was hearing with this plugin. A very slight volume bump (expansion) and some saturation in the upper mids. Honestly, it kind of sounds like the opposite of Soothe. I wonder how many people are going to use it and then dial up the Soothe2 to cancel it all out on their mixbus? :) I really do like what this setting does in the MLC amp sim and leave it on all the time there.
Would your louder example contain more power amp harmonics? Is the Bogren plugin trying to mimic more power amp harmonics? Does harmonics on top of a different power amp add saturation?
Nothing Mikko is only trying to demonstrate his product doesn’t need this, but at the end of the day nobody sells you nothing but a digital simulation of things that’s happens physically, so nobody sells a real touchable thing
Am I the only one that tried it and noticed a big difference? I was so skeptical and even cynical about it, and it completely won me over. I was experimenting with it on and off. it only took me a few minutes before I was missing it.
Definitely audible. Even just adding saturation will give you more perceived loudness. Try it against a free saturator like Softube Saturation Knob - it's somewhat similar in character. This way you'll know if it's just saturation or more than that 🎉
Bogren is no Competition for ML Soundlabs. Bogren is the "Behringer" of the plugin world. Everybody has at least 1 Bogren plugin but nobody will admit it.
Bogren Digital is going to kick your A$$ dude! However, I hear you and I agree at some level. In any event in solo, I hear a little more low end in the signal when I activate IRDX at normal volume from a real amp (6505 92 Orginal) through an IR (Brian Hood). Brian's IR already has a similar low end, however, IRDX brings out more. Do I hear the difference in the mix? NO!!!
I tried my best to keep this video on point about giving people information and data. I didn't aim to debunk anything else but the fact that IRs (when done right) are an amazing format that really doesn't need any enhancements to sound like a real cab. I guess it's going to be one of those classic guitar talks where no amount of actual data will convince people who want to believe in a myth more than data. 🤔 There are terrible IRs out there and I have to assume that people don't know that you can make IRs a thousand different ways. Everyone should just try out some premium ones before judging the format. I wasn't able to convince a big name artist about IRs because he said he tried making his own once and his own IRs didn't sound anything like his real cab. He didn't even want to hear me out about making quality captures... so that's the world we live in.
So, if you're testing the results, why not use a regular guitar intead of a baritone? And why use that 57 and not a nore 'flat' mic? ps You should try my tube amp and tell me it isn't affected by dynamics...!
I like how it sounds on some plugins and not others. I’d say it makes it more “fun” to play through in the same way a a real cab is, but it doesn’t make it more “realistic” per se. -Toby
Aren't we supposed to load IRDX between the amp and the cabsim (IR)? Seems a bit odd to load it after the IR... Also, Voxengo BoogeX has had this DynaCab feature for ages… and the plugin is free.
@@TudorAdrian I do not know then… Scott from 'Chernobyl studios' channel made a review a couple of days ago and said "between", so not sure what is going on.
This was really a response to a bunch of customer service emails and comments we received asking us to add "speaker dynamics" to our plugins - we've always stood by our cab simulations sounding realistic without the need for this speaker drive. It's hard to prove these sorts of claims without measuring it, which is what we're doing here. We also threw IRDX into the mix as it's what brought up the discussions in the first place. -Kai
Interesting how you trash this plugin with visuals in this video, but when you are just using your ears, you seem to kinda praise what you hear. And on that same token; is the amount of knowledge you throw out to dismiss it visually, but when just listening, you fall a little flat as to what's going on. Since you're a competitor, you're just gonna be naturally biased anyways, I get that.
I tried my best to keep it balanced. My aim was not to attack anyone with this video. Rather inform people what it actually is - ML and Bogren have a lot of mutual affiliated people and many customers and industry people wanted my opinion on this. I think the plugin does multiple things but it is still mostly saturation and there are FREE good options out there like Softube's Saturation Knob which adds a similar saturation with less aliasing and noise... I'm not going to tell anyone what they should do. Just giving out information. :)
I'm confident that I make the cleanest and most authentic IR captures in the world. It's not a matter of opinion - I can give you the data. Actually even in this video I'm demonstrating a comparison between my IRs vs the real cab. Why do you think no other IR producer has made such a comparison? Wouldn't it be the best way to demo your IR quality? You may not know this but I've made 100+ stock cabs for the Axe-Fx and about half of the Quad Cortex cabs. Fractal added a new IR capture method to the Axe-Fx inspired by my IR capture method. So... check yo self! There are only 3-4 IR producers on the market who understand the IR format well enough to create clean captures. I would love to make a similar video demonstrating all different IR producers and their IR quality problems... I would keep the names anonymous to avoid this kind of comments I suppose. I highly recommend you evaluate the IRs you're using by loading them up in the DAW and zooming in. 90% of especially all the new IR producers have super noisy IRs that have been cut short to hide how noisy they are. That noise is many times louder than the room bleed in the mic resulting in absolutely no decay in the IR.
@@mlsoundlab that’s all well and good but I judge with my ears and there is just something about your ir’s that sounds off. Obviously plenty of people enjoy what you do and I dig the ML Drums a lot. But I just can’t get the tones I want with your ir’s.
@@xDamageProducer That's entirely possible. I've committed to create the most authentic IRs I possibly can. That means that even though I know there's an EQ curve (tiny 125hz boost for punch, tight 300-500hz cut to get rid of mud, wide 750hz cut for a more aggressive sound, high end polishing around 4-5khz, filter out mud and sizzle) I could add to our entire IR line and many people would prefer that sound - this would go against all my personal values and goals as far as immortalizing analog gear. For me it's all about creating timeless captures that you can pull up 10-20 years from now and they're entirely usable because no processing that was in fashion at that one point in time has been baked into the signal. If you ask me - the best way to get an analog sound out of a modeller is to use these kinds of unprocessed IRs as they sit in a mix so naturally.
Of course I have bias which is why I'm doing my best to just give the data and specifically ask people to make up their own mind by trying it out. I am protecting the IR format on behalf of everyone making super high quality IRs.
I definitely have to disagree. There’s no “scamming” or “being caught red handed” here. The plugin is cool, and it definitely does a thing. Whether or not you like it is a different matter. -Toby
@@DavePowell666 It's not just this video. People are talking the same thing as Mikko on forums. Close examinations in PD by others also exposed Bogren's scam with this plugin. This can't be a coincidence. But unless you are shilling for Bogren company right now, I'm not sure why you're replying, all of you. Carry on.
@@amused2death775I’m replying because you’re using provocative wording and hyperbole redundantly. It’s not a “scam.” If it was doing nothing at all, then yes it would be.
@@amused2death775 I've not even tried the IRDX plugin myself, I'm just saying what I heard in this video. I do have a couple of Bogren IR packs, drum samples and have tried the Mesa amp sim- and I liked them, so I wouldn't disown the entire BD company because one plugin does nothing for me. And it's not a very good "scam" when there's a free trial- if it does nothing for you and you still buy it, that's kinda on you.
![Kodak Black - Versatile 4 [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/VcP_1Ua__vY/mqdefault.jpg)
**DISCLAIMER** Based on seeing some of the first comments I wanted to make it clear that we respect Jens and the Bogren team and would prefer everyone to keep things respectful. I think the concept of their product is super interesting and different and more things like this should exist. However all the data that I've studied (for more than a decade making premium IRs as a profession) with some of the top people in the modelling industry suggests that even though everyone wants to believe that guitar cabinets react dynamically, it's not a real thing. If it was that first null test would've shown clear signs of pumping which it didn't. So the proof is here in this video and I can get that null test even quieter by matching the volume better during the IR shoot process with the volume during the reamp process. If anything once you start pushing amplifiers you're getting a more compressed sound.
This all being said I don't want to affect Bogren in a negative way - I have tons of respect towards them so if you are at all interested in all this try it out for yourself and make up your own mind! Peace! ❤
Mikko, I know some clickbait is necessary for the algorithm and stuff, but if you don't want to affect Bogren in a negative way maybe the phrase "snake oil" on the thumbnail wasn't the best idea, since it is used to describe products that are a scam. I know it's stated as a question, and also you say in the video if someone likes it, it's good (I'm on that boat hahaha I think this made my tone better) but as you see in the comments, people can easily jump to the conclusion that you are "debunking a scam".
@@Emanuel_Flores Not to mention the cringey thumbnail, with that disgusted expression...
Let's talk shit about a competitor but with diplomacy!
@@Emanuel_Flores Mikko was absolutely in the right to expose this scam. I don't care how he did it, I'm just grateful he didn't attempt to swim in cahoots with Bogren like a total shill. We must thank Mikko for this level of transparency, because he could easily take money from Bogren and sell you this IRDX junk like it's the best thing since the sliced bread. I'm sure other channels are already doing this in spades.
@@luisbovleck5173😂swimming in cahoots with Bogren like a total shill - made me chuckle
U clearly dont know about White Sea Studio hahaha
@@Emanuel_Flores
Nice look at what IRDX is actually doing, very awesome hearing the real deal speaker drive vs the IRDX plugin so we can get a sense of what happens in the real world. I also thought if the plugin was marketed as a guitar bus sweetener or saturator it would sit a lot nicer with me mentally, but being marketed as speaker dynamics simulation just felt wrong from the first time I heard it.
I understand why people would flick it on and hear a positive change of some kind at a glance... but for me personally in the context of a mix there's already stages of saturation, compression etc etc. Slapping this down just equates to another stage of saturation and its another thing to balance in the mix / have to manage to make sure you're not overcooking the audio. All in all it sits in a weird place for me where it's like if you strip back the marketing... do I all of a sudden need extra random saturation processing on my guitars? Not really, ergo... Can probably live without this and continue to use IRs like they've been used for the past 25 years.
I have listened to several demos of this plug in now. And to me it sounds like a combination of an exciter and compressor/expander.
Bogren just can’t miss an opportunity to sell you something
thanks for the proper test Mikko! you’re one of a kind
Bogren is trying to sell us something? So is everybody else.
@@CJ_Wolesz But not everybody sells snake oil
@@luisbovleck5173 If you like what it does to the sound, what difference does it make? Is a 5150 amp sim snake oil because there are differences between it and a real 5150?
@@CJ_Wolesz obviously, it was exposed already it doesn't do anything, IRDX, I mean, at least it doesn't do anything of any positive nature to the sound, hence the word "snake oil" is justified. and don't change the subject. we are talking about IRDX right now, not 5150.
@@luisbovleck5173 So because you personally don't think it's doing anything of "positive nature" to the sound, that means it's snake oil?
SUPER helpful. I was wondering what this is really doing.
thank you for doing this, mikko. it answered a few questions i had about this plugin. also, it's great to see your channel doing so well!
Thank you so much, it means a lot! 🤲
-Kai
I've enjoyed post-mic sat when I've heard others use it. IR's seem to have a static-kinda sound (a tiny bit like a blanket of eq even though that's not what impulse are), and IRDX sounds like it moves them closer to the "air moving" perception, like the impulse is gradually changing one percent each second. Not saying mic recorded is dynamic or pulsing, just that it seem to have a natural, contained sway that it sways within. And IR's sound like they're on one impulse, which they are. This effect and the sat seem to be coinciding but almost seperate.
This video was great! Although, I never considered IDRX in the first place because I’m pretty happy with how my cabs sound. Mega green and freeman are about as perfect as I could ever hope for.
I just add saturation in my Ozone suite
This sort of confirms my hesitation towards this plug-in. It feels very much like a BBE Sonic Maximizer/Sonic Stomp, but for impulse responses: It feels a bit snake oil'esque, and you're not really sure what it does. This was a great explanation and demonstration of what the plug-in does. Now, if only someone would do this with the BBE Sonic Maximizer/Sonic Stomp. 😄
You can basically can get the pretty same results with a Preamp Plugin (a 1073 style one). Overdrive the input, bumb the highs a little and that's it.
It is what I usually do to get the supposed "liveliness" that the people claim that is lacking...
Thanks a lot for debunking the myth!!
Hey, what 1073 plugin would you reccommend?
@@amirtak9886 I use the UAD one. I guess that there are others over there that are similar...
@@josecolares86 are you putting it after the amp? as in simulating a speaker microphone preamp?
@@matiasmoulin2126 That's it, to be precise, after the IR Loader
Thank you for actually using technology to showcase what it does. This so so much better than using just ears to figure it out.
Mikko explaining very well what I couldn't hear haha.
SDS did a review on this plugin today. I could not hear any noticeable difference on 3 different systems. I enjoyed watching Jon "work to describe" the "differences" that nobody could possibly hear. I have respect for SDS but this was clearly a PAID advertisement for Bogren.
My question to Bogren is this: when you were charging 50.00 for IR packs, did you include this amazing technology? The IRs I bought were the "best metal IRs ever made" according to Bogren. Now Bogren tells me I need a "dynamic modeler thing" after the "best metal IRs ever made."
Interesting. We will know the truth on this when Glenn Fricker gets this plugin for free then does "his tests." I'm laughing already.
Bogren are all snake oil and marketing
Just an idea here - take 100 irs for example with same placement then make plugin that change them with the speed of the real moving cab but with no sound pops and its done or just plugin that made very little changes very fast to a static ir
Your approach to explaining is so good! Hoping for more of these things. After, I still love the plugin.
Glad you enjoyed the video! 💪
-Kai
Thank you for running the tests and explaining! I think it's a cool effect, but having recorded lots of IRs and run null tests to check my work, I knew there isn't a dynamic like this between a live cab and an IR.
This was the main purpose of this video. I'm surprised that so many people automatically accept that miked up cabs have dynamics that are not in an IR - ask any premium IR producer and they will say otherwise. I'm not sure what it is but I showed proof of that not being true in this video and still here in the comments quite many people are saying that real cabs affect dynamics. And if we're talking about speaker drive it's compressing - not expanding. This means that it reduces the dynamics rather than adds dynamics. So... I feel like I gave the data and some people are not interested in it but just want to believe in a myth.
@@mlsoundlab The guitar community often prefers their own mythology to the less sexy reality! Anyone who does any "mythbusting" will encounter some oddly angry push back but never contrary testing and science...
I do think the idea of saturating and expanding guitar tracks might be cool and useful, but this is a case of smart, if slightly unrealistic marketing. It worked to stir up some controversy and have a lot of people making videos about it, so good job to the guys at Bogren!
I like to see this plugin as a nice and very pleasant saturation for the guitars, like I like tape on drums for example, it won't fix your tone , but if you have a nice tone it can be the Cherry on top.
its advertised as speaker dynamics emulation. it is not. if it was sold as a “cherry on top” exciter/saturator, it wouldn’t raise such a shitstorm
@@kimseniorb well if we want to be honest a plugin or an ir will never be like the real thing but for most of us plugins and IRS are all we need and this thing makes my tones a lil bit better so I don't really care how they want to sell it , I just like the way it reacts to my tone , that's all
@@constantinranis copium
@@constantinranisOf course it can be like the real thing. We are already there on so many levels. Lol. It is only a matter of time until it is perfected.
It seems like it's basically a guitar-dedicated exciter, which is cool. Wish they would just market it as such
It's great that you explain all this! There's a point I don't understand at 6:11. You say that null test results in quiet constant hiss, but I can hear the guitar doing notes. Can you explain more about this?
Very helpful tests, however there are other ways to design an IR test. I think the missing part is to compare the IR by playing different things thought it. Using a different guitar and guitar player than the one was used to capture this IR.
Agreed - adding saturation but in a good way I guess
I like the sound that IRDX gives. Two Notes has a similar feature in their Wall of Sound plugin. It's obviously saturation tuned to make heavy guitars cut better, which can be a useful thing.
I adds low end and db.
You can just achieve that with eq and turning your volume knob a tad.
There definitely is a difference (IR vs Miced Cab), the real mic is brighter and a bit more ... "alive". (I guess it's mostly the frequency response though)
Interesting comparison :)
There is a difference between the mic’d cab and the IR. The interesting thing is, the difference I am hearing which seems to be in the high mids, is the same thing that made me stop using my Mikko plugin. It’s this thing that I just could not ever dial out.
I wish Mikko IRs sound like the mic’d 57 they captured.
You do understand the difference in signal chain? That is why you hear a difference.
@@benburnett8109 from what I understood, there was a mic’d track, then a track with a DI off the amp running through an IR of the set up which to me means the signal chains should be identical. If he did not replicate the signal chain then the null test would be pointless.
@@stm113 I'm talking about your setup and why you stopped using the Mikko Plugin.
The difference between those two is volume in two ways. Volume difference of the IR shoot test signal vs the actual reamp volume. So if either of those is a different volume you will hear a different volume of the room ringing in the null test and that is what you are mainly hearing. When making IRs I can control how much room reflection bleed I get baked in to the IR. In this case I think the mic has more bleed than the IR but it can be the other way around too. For IR packs this gets fine tuned for clean captures.
Then I could've spend more time matching those volumes for that comparison so the loudness doesn't fool you into perceiving them to be different.
I don't usually add saturation to distorted guitars but I demoed IRDX anyway. Not for me personally; I think it sounds better on drum loops tbh. Reminds me a bit of Decapitator's tone shaping/saturation.
I think Jens was using it on vocals too. So who knows - it might be a REALLY GOOD saturation plugin in the mix. 🙂
For me IRDX is useful as an exciter/fattener for some guitar tracks, but I hate that by default it is mostly just louder. I don't think it should be trusted to do much more than be an exciter, but save a default preset with output volume cut slightly to match input so you can toggle it on without just liking it for being louder. I know Kazrog had cab dynamics on Recabinet 4 like 12 years ago - definitely not a new thing.
I tested it out with a bunch of amp sims and I like it on almost everything. It gives you maybe 5% difference. I’m not sure if it’s much better than a saturator and some EQ though. I’ll have to test that out and see if it makes a difference when playing through it.
Try it against the FREE Softube Saturation Knob - that plugin has a similar saturation structure so that should go to show if there's more than just saturation involved.
I tried this thing out and liked what it did. I care very little if it emulates a real effect accurately or not, if I like the effect.
That being said, the real speaker drive sounded gnarlier to me. And now that you made me aware, I wish it emulated it more accurately
😂...
come to really think of it, speaker dynamics is probably only going to be a thing if you push the output really hard, which is most likely not something you want in most cases anyway. Which is probably why Celestion DSR (Dynamic Speaker Response) and Kazrog Recabinet didn't really took off after all.
I imagine each company will have a different way of going about it - at it's most realistic, it'll be that speaker drive sound shown in the quiet cab vs loud cab null test. It's not a particularly significant difference, and many times it's adding unwanted noises to your signal.
-Kai
Can you do a comparison with the Fluid IR from Overloud THU
to my ears it sounded just like saturation and as he was coming in with "adding harmonic content", case was closed :D but still i couldn't resist on clicking this vid, so thanks for putting in the work ! reasonable clinic investigation, well done !
I like Bogren but in my opinion it sounds like EQ and Pan trick.A bit of 3D in sounds but...Why I should believe that this is the sound of '' moving speaker ''?Try to show a sound of my moving hand and how my hand compress the air.Will you?
As an audio engineer with over 20 years of experience, both professionally and as an passionate enthusiast... I can just say that if you're just recording at home with stuff that you're not intending to release, then you don't need this plugin. But as a recording musician without access to a big expensive studio to record with real cabs and use a cab sim like the two notes torpedo line or if you just wanna use your fractal or quad cortex then yes this plugin is for you. It does make a difference. It gives a depth and a "sizzle" that a real cabinet would produce in a studio recording with dynamic and condensation microphones. And besides, if you dont trust it there's a 14 day free trial to try it out for yourself before you buy.
During the analysis IRDX didn't Show the membrane moving. So I assume it was a ststic state. It would have made sense if the plugin would have been pumping so to speak while it has been analysed. Or am I missing sth.?
Great video! I was planning on doing the exact tests as well, glad that this time is now spared for me haha. After watching a shitload of Dan Worrall's videos i was very, very sceptical of this plugin actually working as advertised. If it helps people to get the sound that they like quicker, then by all means go for it. However, there is no dynamic difference and i think that is important to point out, like you did Mikko.
Glad the video was helpful to you! 🙏
-Kai
Excellent video!! When you got out DDMF's Plugin Doctor I knew the truth would be revealed and nothing would remain hidden from its all seeing eye! Great job.
Great info. Like many plugins, it is often about what it is actually doing and if you find it pleasing or useful to what you do. And of course, do you already have a plugin that can do a similar thing in some sort of way!
For sure - it still adds something to your sound regardless, and sometimes you may like what it's adding.
-Kai
12:33 It's the Jordan Valeriote plugin :o
GREAT video. Scientific, with proper analysis, and to the point. I guess your dog in the race is that people would call out your IR's to be imprecise for not having cooked dynamics, but you show very well that there's nothing new under the sun here. I am an amateur and just cook IR at homes for fun, but I think we have a similar process, and I can attest that your findings mirror mine exactly. BTW, I usually align my signals for null tests using LUFs normalization in Reaper. It's a bit hit and miss depending on the context, but it works well in many cases.
Also, a premise of IRDX is kind of that all speakers and cabs will have the same type of dynamics, else it would include different models to be "faithful". I have NOTHING egainst what it does though. Finally, if cabs were non-linear it would absolutely suck to get the sweet spot of tone in practical applications. Speaker are designed to be linear to avoid sounding like crap.
We're definitely biased in the regard that we're defending our own decisions and choices here, though the test should speak for itself. If we did these tests and found our IRs lacking that "moving air" dynamic quality, we would've taken it as a sign to improve what we do. Glad you enjoyed the video!
-Kai
Mikko here chiming in too - I feel like many people are missing the data that I gave in the video. I scientifically showed that guitar cabs DO NOT HAVE a lot of dynamics. If anything - when you drive a cab loud it will start to compress with speaker drive which diminishes dynamics. That means less dynamics - not more. Why are so many people here in the comments still saying guitar cabs add dynamics? I don't get it.
I have to point out that no other IR producer has ever dared to show their IRs vs a real cabinet in public let alone create a null test in front of everyone to prove the accuracy. The IR format does sort of have attack and decay specifically for every frequency if you keep the IR format raw. However most IR producers sell minimum-phase transformed IRs which means all the raw phase information has been removed from the IRs. If I did this null test with an MPT'd IR it would not null like this at all.
You do touch on something important - the sweet spot of the guitar cabinet. I think it's the IR producers job to fine tune microphone positioning and the guitar cab both to their sweet spot. That is a big part of the job.
Mikko, I'm glad you used actual brand names, I think Jens won't be offended to much) I hope to see more of such videos concerning IRs with technical information and comparisons. And hope you will make a Hesu Demon IR pack someday ;-)
I've observed something really new adin' IRDX through Fab Filter Pro analyzer. Many says that eq + compression/expander and so on could do the same..., i'm pretty sure that's true, but I don't see anybody showing how. Anyway IRDX is doin' it through a single instance, obviously not very "tweakable", but I can hear it. Another big thing about IRDX; do a big test through clean and crunchy guitar tracks, on acoustic guitars is wonderfull too and easyer to hear.
With respect, never seen a real mic signal to have an exact same waveform as the IR-ished signal even whith the exact same rig and signal path, like you show in your video (track in yellow and grey)... concerning IRDX, well I could agree with you partially considering what I have listened so far, and analyzing your tests, but obviously we alI have to test it by ourselves with our familiar rigs to determine if it's snake oil or no. Thanks for your video man!
the IR was made on the spot I believe, and he could actually be printing everything at one go, a direct amp signal, a mic signal, and an IR all in a single pass, so the waveforms should be mostly the same.
Great video, great null tests! IRDX marketing was way off!
I can add high shelf EQ instead of buying this plugin. Can't hear anything super original to be honest.
I love Bogren stuff and Jens mixing, but it's how I feel about this plugin.
Excellent video. Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it 💪
-Kai
Put the phoenix 2 (for best result), or other saturation plugins on the guitar tracks and done.
To my ears the IRDX sounds a tad fizzy? Although I’m not a hi-gain metal guy.🤔
Question Mikko:
With all the recent content I’ve seen regarding interface hi-z preamp/amp plugin input gain/dbu headroom compensation? What’s your base capture dbu on the ML amp sims? People are starting to say for example on my 2nd gen Scarlett interface (12dbu max), I should perhaps dial my hi-z input gain to zero, and then compensate with the plug-in’s input level? Although the ones I’ve seen claiming this are mainly single coil players?🤔
Thanks in advance!
Cheers!
We're of the opinion that you really shouldn't sweat the small stuff in regards to input gain - our plugins are calibrated to -12.5dBu, but really our method to getting the input gain right has remained the same for a long time. Instrument/Hi-Z input engaged, gain on 0. That should give you a good baseline. Previously our method to dialling in input gain was to chug as hard as you can on a guitar with humbuckers, and set the gain on your interface so that the input light in Amped barely starts to blink. This new method ultimately has the same result in a best-case scenario, but it's more reliable to just turn the input gain to 0.
-Kai
@@mlsoundlab Allrightythen! I don't believe I could of possibly hoped for a more clear and concise explanative answer than that.
Haha! Many thanks!
That suddenly made a whole lot more sense, and apparently, I've been somewhat doing it slightly wrong this whole time. (facepalm)
Rotflmao!!!
The ASPD/ADHD struggle is very real.
Anyway...
Thanks again for the reply and the learning!
Cheers!
Glad to have helped you out! 💪
-Kai
Great video
Thank you! 💪
-Kai
Every loudspeaker will generate THD which varies depending on how it is constructed.
Impulse Responses are just snapshots of the frequency response of the speaker and don’t capture any of the nonlinear behaviour.
So trying to simulate the nonlinear characteristics in a general way has to be more realistic.
Of course, trying to hear the 10% THD that the speaker is producing when the amp is producing 100%THD is pointless.
Thanks for explaining what is going on in with the sound with this plug in applied. Is there any alternative way to achieve this with "basic" plugins or something you think would get us similar results minus the aliasing/higher end. I guess what I really wanna know is how to get those "depth of speaker movement" in my IRs , would a saturation plug in or pulteq achieve that? I tried the plug in , I liked it , I think , I think my ears are ruined by 23 years of playing loud music, bu I think I felt more depth and I would like to add that to my production.
For saturation I recommend the FREE Softube Saturation Knob as it has somewhat similar saturation to IRDX but no aliasing/noise... and it's free. As for achieving speaker drive it's compression and darker. Likely odd harmonics would be better so Fabfilter Saturn or Karzog True Iron - those have odd harmonic modes so a beefier type of saturation.
I would question that speaker drive is always what you want. With current tools use tilt EQ into an odd harmonics saturator and fine tune your guitar brightness into a mix. This way you get exactly what you need rather than something random?
@@mlsoundlab thank you so very much for this amazing explanation. You rock !
I can hear the difference. I like it.
That's good! There is a difference, this video was more about exploring what that difference actually is, and generally looking into cab dynamics as a whole 🙏
-Kai
Looking at the linear analysis/frequency response of a non linear plugin is barely useful but I guess you know that already. Other than that your analysis seems sound. Looks like a bit of asymmetric clipping and likely some filtering. Normal / intense could be varying the DC offset from what it looks like.
I find the fact that it makes the signal louder a bit dodgy but that's the case for a lot of magic 'make things sound better' plugins so.
Anyways, thanks for sharing your analysis Miko. :)
I somehow avoided making this video for 6 months ever since people started talking about IRDX - I've been having this conversation with Bogren ever since. Really anything I say about another company will come across awkward.
I think it's wrong to say that there's something wrong with the IR format when you can make IRs in so many different ways. F.ex. most people use solid state amps for IR shooting which rolls off the highs and doesn't have a neutral mid range. Being one of the guys who has studied the format with extra focus on making those IRs as real and premium as possible I see this more as a self-defense effort on behalf of everyone who makes amazing clean IRs captured correctly.
Most of these comments focus on IRDX but really the main point of this video is me showing what the difference between a GOOD IR and a real cab is. It's not a lot. Then showing what happens when you seriously drive a cab and what it sounds like in comparison. Compression and high end roll off at least with Oranges. Not 8k boosts, expansion and post-saturation. But like I say in the video - it's unclear what their plugin is actually doing when just looking at numbers. To me it sounds like it's mostly just saturation and honestly the FREE Softube Saturation Knob has a similar saturation character without noise+aliasing so that's likely the comparison people should make by themselves. Do you hear something else besides saturation?
Why am I the only IR producer with the b... courage to show what my IRs sound like when compared to real cabs? Where are the comparisons from other IR producers comparing their IRs to real cabs and then showing what's missing and showing how IRDX fixes it? Just saying - I can easily be proven wrong and I have no problem admitting if I've been wrong. At least in the comparisons I've made this is the data. I'm always interested in learning new things and I tried to teach people about this stuff with this video.
@@mlsoundlab
> I think it's wrong to say that there's something wrong with the IR format when you can make IRs in so many different ways.
Depends on what job they are supposed to do. I think there are relatively easy arguments as to why impulse responses are insufficient for simulating the effects of different speakers and cabinets on guitar tone. I guess the biggest part of that is probably that they can't capture the interaction of the variable impedance with the power amp. To make matters worse there isn't agreement over whether the linear parts of that should be captured in the IR or not. I guess that's the root of the whole discussion whether IR should be captured using solid state amps or tubes as well.
If they are just there as a tone shaping tool without the purpose of emulating the changes different speakers & cabs make then yeah, there is nothing wrong. And I really like Jens' impulses for jamming.
I'd argue the same applies to IRDX, if it's sold just as a tone shaping tool, that's cool. Marketing it as "Speakers are non-linear, and it’s those non-linearities that IRDX faithfully emulates and adds to your amp sim or IR loader." is the dodgy bit.
Again going back to the impedance curve, how is IRDX even supposed to know what the impedance curve of the cab in question is, what the topology of the amp is, where the presence and resonance knobs are set. When talking about the speaker similar arguments can be made. There are variables it doesn't know and others it can't control.
The claim seems to be a bit absurd. If it was marketed as just another tone shaping tool without the claim that it faithfully emulates something I think it'd be all cool. I like a bit of compression and a bit of saturation/sizzle after the speaker, I guess most people do. :)
Not sure whether that's something you are comfortable revealing but just out of curiosity, in your amp sims, how do you model the speaker impedance curve? Is it just a representative cab that you use or does it depend on the cab selected?
@@veers0r Good points! Really people should take a close look at Fractal Audio and how they've approached amp modelling. They are still considered the highest grade of amp modelling for so many reasons. Everything that's non-linear is a part of amp modelling including impedance. Only speaker drive is in the cab block. That's the way our amp sims work too. Amps were designed on specific impedance curves so I model amps with the cabs they were most likely designed on. People might be shocked to know how many of the big amp sim companies use loadboxes for their amp sim impedance even in 2024. Then you're surprised when the tightest amp in the world sounds like a fuzz pedal... this is likely a topic for another video some day. :P It just sucks not being able to talk about this stuff because I'm in this business myself. Well... when I retire or accept one of the offers made for the company I'll start blasting all this information. 🤣
@@mlsoundlabI'd love to hear some more behind the scenes stuff from you. I've only heard rumors about it so far. Really enjoyed cliffs notes on the axefx forums as well. But I guess the audience for that is rather small.
It is just a tool. If you like what it does to the sound then it doesn't matter. Always run the free trail before purchasing any plugin.
Exactly!
-Kai
Anyways, MLsound lab for the win!
Notice the low-end chugs stick out in the loud cab/IR null. That's what I would expect. The slight loss of highs could be the result of the speaker coil heating up and increasing resistance, and/or maybe air pressure compression on the cone. The aliasing is bit annoying. Does it happen at higher sample rates, or does it always run internally at 44.1k or 48k?
sounds cool
Full disclosure: I'm a Bogren fanboy, but this video confirms exactly what I thought I was hearing with this plugin. A very slight volume bump (expansion) and some saturation in the upper mids. Honestly, it kind of sounds like the opposite of Soothe. I wonder how many people are going to use it and then dial up the Soothe2 to cancel it all out on their mixbus? :) I really do like what this setting does in the MLC amp sim and leave it on all the time there.
Fabfilter Saturn does the same thing
Would your louder example contain more power amp harmonics? Is the Bogren plugin trying to mimic more power amp harmonics? Does harmonics on top of a different power amp add saturation?
power amp saturation happens inside the amp so its modelled within an ampsim, no point in sticking it post cab/mic
That is what I was alluding to.
Nothing Mikko is only trying to demonstrate his product doesn’t need this, but at the end of the day nobody sells you nothing but a digital simulation of things that’s happens physically, so nobody sells a real touchable thing
Of course it is a real thing - at the point it comes out of your speakers and you hear it, it is tangible. physically existing. :).
Am I the only one that tried it and noticed a big difference? I was so skeptical and even cynical about it, and it completely won me over. I was experimenting with it on and off. it only took me a few minutes before I was missing it.
Definitely audible. Even just adding saturation will give you more perceived loudness. Try it against a free saturator like Softube Saturation Knob - it's somewhat similar in character. This way you'll know if it's just saturation or more than that
🎉
Not a "very nice" video being based on analyzing a product from a competing company directly. Anyway, interesting video.
Bogren is no Competition for ML Soundlabs. Bogren is the "Behringer" of the plugin world. Everybody has at least 1 Bogren plugin but nobody will admit it.
@@benburnett8109 no, audio assault is the “behringer” of amp sims.
Bogren Digital is going to kick your A$$ dude! However, I hear you and I agree at some level. In any event in solo, I hear a little more low end in the signal when I activate IRDX at normal volume from a real amp (6505 92 Orginal) through an IR (Brian Hood). Brian's IR already has a similar low end, however, IRDX brings out more. Do I hear the difference in the mix? NO!!!
I tried my best to keep this video on point about giving people information and data. I didn't aim to debunk anything else but the fact that IRs (when done right) are an amazing format that really doesn't need any enhancements to sound like a real cab. I guess it's going to be one of those classic guitar talks where no amount of actual data will convince people who want to believe in a myth more than data. 🤔 There are terrible IRs out there and I have to assume that people don't know that you can make IRs a thousand different ways. Everyone should just try out some premium ones before judging the format. I wasn't able to convince a big name artist about IRs because he said he tried making his own once and his own IRs didn't sound anything like his real cab. He didn't even want to hear me out about making quality captures... so that's the world we live in.
So, if you're testing the results, why not use a regular guitar intead of a baritone? And why use that 57 and not a nore 'flat' mic?
ps You should try my tube amp and tell me it isn't affected by dynamics...!
*more 'flat' mic? Like a measurement mic?
I like how it sounds on some plugins and not others. I’d say it makes it more “fun” to play through in the same way a a real cab is, but it doesn’t make it more “realistic” per se.
-Toby
Thanks for stopping by hoss! 💪
-Kai
@@mlsoundlab ANYTMIE BORTHER
Aren't we supposed to load IRDX between the amp and the cabsim (IR)? Seems a bit odd to load it after the IR...
Also, Voxengo BoogeX has had this DynaCab feature for ages… and the plugin is free.
The IRDX manual says it should be loaded right after the speaker IR in the chain.
@@TudorAdrian I do not know then… Scott from 'Chernobyl studios' channel made a review a couple of days ago and said "between", so not sure what is going on.
@@TudorAdrian And it seems my assumption was right… IDRX is just an expander.
@@PASHKULI It would seem you missed the video completely, as Scott pointed out he made a mistake. Might want to revisit the vid dude.
@@Shred_Rocket Yes, it got clarified at Bugrens channel. IRDX goes AFTER the IR loader.
Kinda seems like ML are intimidated by Jens. Who woulda thunkit?
This was really a response to a bunch of customer service emails and comments we received asking us to add "speaker dynamics" to our plugins - we've always stood by our cab simulations sounding realistic without the need for this speaker drive. It's hard to prove these sorts of claims without measuring it, which is what we're doing here. We also threw IRDX into the mix as it's what brought up the discussions in the first place.
-Kai
Interesting how you trash this plugin with visuals in this video, but when you are just using your ears, you seem to kinda praise what you hear. And on that same token; is the amount of knowledge you throw out to dismiss it visually, but when just listening, you fall a little flat as to what's going on. Since you're a competitor, you're just gonna be naturally biased anyways, I get that.
I tried my best to keep it balanced. My aim was not to attack anyone with this video. Rather inform people what it actually is - ML and Bogren have a lot of mutual affiliated people and many customers and industry people wanted my opinion on this. I think the plugin does multiple things but it is still mostly saturation and there are FREE good options out there like Softube's Saturation Knob which adds a similar saturation with less aliasing and noise... I'm not going to tell anyone what they should do. Just giving out information. :)
Of course the company who makes inferior IR’s doesn’t like the competitions product.
I'm confident that I make the cleanest and most authentic IR captures in the world. It's not a matter of opinion - I can give you the data. Actually even in this video I'm demonstrating a comparison between my IRs vs the real cab. Why do you think no other IR producer has made such a comparison? Wouldn't it be the best way to demo your IR quality?
You may not know this but I've made 100+ stock cabs for the Axe-Fx and about half of the Quad Cortex cabs. Fractal added a new IR capture method to the Axe-Fx inspired by my IR capture method. So... check yo self!
There are only 3-4 IR producers on the market who understand the IR format well enough to create clean captures. I would love to make a similar video demonstrating all different IR producers and their IR quality problems... I would keep the names anonymous to avoid this kind of comments I suppose. I highly recommend you evaluate the IRs you're using by loading them up in the DAW and zooming in. 90% of especially all the new IR producers have super noisy IRs that have been cut short to hide how noisy they are. That noise is many times louder than the room bleed in the mic resulting in absolutely no decay in the IR.
@@mlsoundlab that’s all well and good but I judge with my ears and there is just something about your ir’s that sounds off. Obviously plenty of people enjoy what you do and I dig the ML Drums a lot. But I just can’t get the tones I want with your ir’s.
@@xDamageProducer That's entirely possible. I've committed to create the most authentic IRs I possibly can. That means that even though I know there's an EQ curve (tiny 125hz boost for punch, tight 300-500hz cut to get rid of mud, wide 750hz cut for a more aggressive sound, high end polishing around 4-5khz, filter out mud and sizzle) I could add to our entire IR line and many people would prefer that sound - this would go against all my personal values and goals as far as immortalizing analog gear. For me it's all about creating timeless captures that you can pull up 10-20 years from now and they're entirely usable because no processing that was in fashion at that one point in time has been baked into the signal. If you ask me - the best way to get an analog sound out of a modeller is to use these kinds of unprocessed IRs as they sit in a mix so naturally.
@xDamageProducer lol inferior to what? to brittle post eq’d bogren captures? named like “hotcoom” “cockjuice” and “hairyballs” 😂
Mikko is biased. He want to sell his products and claim they're better than anything else.
Of course I have bias which is why I'm doing my best to just give the data and specifically ask people to make up their own mind by trying it out. I am protecting the IR format on behalf of everyone making super high quality IRs.
Yeah, it's a shame. It turned out to be complete snake oil, scammer Bogren was caught red-handed and lost a customer.. No more Bogren for me.
I'm not sure that was completely the message of this video. Use the free trial to decide if it has a place in your toolkit. If not, don't buy it lol.
I definitely have to disagree. There’s no “scamming” or “being caught red handed” here. The plugin is cool, and it definitely does a thing. Whether or not you like it is a different matter.
-Toby
@@DavePowell666 It's not just this video. People are talking the same thing as Mikko on forums. Close examinations in PD by others also exposed Bogren's scam with this plugin. This can't be a coincidence. But unless you are shilling for Bogren company right now, I'm not sure why you're replying, all of you. Carry on.
@@amused2death775I’m replying because you’re using provocative wording and hyperbole redundantly.
It’s not a “scam.” If it was doing nothing at all, then yes it would be.
@@amused2death775 I've not even tried the IRDX plugin myself, I'm just saying what I heard in this video. I do have a couple of Bogren IR packs, drum samples and have tried the Mesa amp sim- and I liked them, so I wouldn't disown the entire BD company because one plugin does nothing for me.
And it's not a very good "scam" when there's a free trial- if it does nothing for you and you still buy it, that's kinda on you.