I feel like the when comparing higher end pickups to each other there are only tiny eq differences. But if you compare a cheap guitar’s stock pickups to quality pickups the difference is insane.
Oh yes it's important to know that bad pickups can be really bad. Like you said - once you have a quality pickup that's "healthy" then that seems to go a long way.
Some cheap pickups lack clarity, they have lower resonant frequency than what I would personally like or the resonant peak isn't as "pointy" as I would like. On the other hand the stock pickups in my old Squier Bullet Strat are really bright, I've seen a video of a guy soldering a bunch of capacitors in parallel with those exact pickups in order to tame that resonant peak a bit. I personally like the sound of those pickup even without such modifications. It's not that simple as cheap = bad, expensive = good, it's a matter of personal preference more than anything.
I can get pretty infuriated when someone on, say, Reddit goes "hey folks, guitar noob, can this guitar play thrash metal?" and people go "Yeeees but you DEF need to upgrade the pickups, those are way too mid-output". Like there's no other part in the chain that adds gain. And this is talking heavy distorted tones. Jeebus christmas.
Great advice here! I used to set my action as low as posible without having string buzz. But over time I realized that guitars sound better with higher strings. So since then I still go for the lowest possible height and then raise it just a tiny little bit.
Pretty sure it was the pickup legend Bill Lawrence whose advice was two nickels thick on low e and one nickel thick on high e for pickup height. Thats been my starting point for pickup height for years and I can adjust from there as needed. If Bill says that’s important, it is, I think this video helps prove that. I like these videos testing out things we’ve all accepted for years. Good stuff.
The nickel spacing is that top of the pickup poles to the bottom of the strings? I would imagine so. Does that go for both neck and bridge pickups? Thanks
The Bill Lawrence is a huge tone changer... and I love its sound personally. Super punchy bass. Clear distinct High end. If Nuno played a Les Paul with stock pickups on pornografitti... it wouldn't be a tenth as popular ... besides more than words lol He man woman hater would have been a muffled wash
@@Eric-fb2wpyes, starting point is that setting for all pups. Remember to measure with the string pressed down at a high fret; put a capo on the 12th fret and the measure/adjust
@@honkytonkinson9787 The string should be fretted at the highest fret. I can't believe that some people, some of whom are "renowned experts", measure pickup height with the strings open! As far as I know the standard and only viable method to measure pickup height is with the string fretted at the highest fret on your guitar...period. And get a metal mechanic's rule...they're only about 100 nickels!
Why adjust the string height vs. easey to change the pickup height? What was the distance between string height and pickup in final recommendation? I have the same year 2016 lp.
The issue was not the pickup distance but my neck being set dead straight and strings hitting the frets too much. I didn't have a buzz going on either. Just the strings hitting the frets a little bit too much.
@mlsoundlab by coincidence, having the exact same problem that you had on the beginning of the vid; one amazing LP standard and 2 other LP:s that I want to bring to the same ballpark soundwise. Thank you so much for sharing the extensive shootout! I have been meddling with the pickup height and pole screw height and have found very similar changes in the tone brightness and overtones especially that can help "open up" dynamics of a pickup. Without changing anything but the pickup height the sound was muddy and boxy, always saturated when too close to the strings, and in a low position clear, rich overtones, clean - breakup available depending on aggression - I couldn't believe they were the same pups. So, after new strings and setting the action so that the strings vibrate properly, dynamic response can be further optimized by height adjustment :)
Hey, Mikko! I'm loving this new trend of talented individuals (such as yourself) dispelling some of the myths that we've believed for generations as guitar players. I remember swapping some cheap Ibanez pickups for some BKPs, and while I did notice an improvement, I was underwhelmed at how little it was compared to the price I paid, at least as a predominately high-gain player. Since then, I've always paid very close attention to the differences in pickups, and with the exception of different pickup types (like singles vs humbuckers vs lipstick, etc), I've not once ever gone "Wow! What a difference!". So it's wonderful to see folks like you, Glenn Fricker and Jim Lill absolutely crushing these tests. I know how much time and effort goes into these, and I sure do appreciate you sharing your findings, Mikko. Keep it up!
Thank you so much! These are things that bother me and not knowing why something is the way it is. Really I'm doing this for me and sharing the journey so it's all fun and games. 😄
Really BKP are very expensive and if you’re trying chase a certain tone I would never start with them. I would with Seymour Duncan or DiMarzio, very cheap price of entry and the best part is you can find used ones! Balling on budget used is the way to go. I’m sorry that happened to you with BKP.
It is kind of ridiculous that some very expensive pickups are marketed as being the cure for better high gain tones when in all actuality, high gain is the *least* demanding of the pickup, what with all the elements of the chain already present to sculpt the tone -- pre-drive EQ/boost (classic tube screamer trick for example), post-drive EQ, cabs, IRs, etc. The only thing I'd say is actually pretty important as a differentiating factor between mid-level pickups for high gain is noise. And yeah, output is way overrated these days. Back in the day there was an argument for it, but nowadays everybody's got a pedalboard and clean gain is pretty cheap.
Pickup height will sort of be a separate video from this. The height was closely fine tuned here to be optimal. This was all on the bridge pickup so the setup is pretty much identical. Pickup cover is exactly 3mm from the strings. That is as high as you can go without string accidentally hitting the pickups. PAFs are usually set up just like this. You get less output and a brighter sound by dropping that pickup. I do that to the neck pickup if it's too muddy. 😊
I'm not sure if that's exactly the case, couse I played with the action on many of my guitar. The only thing that really poke out to me is if you lower the action to it's limit then strings start hitiing the frets when you hit it. If gives more punch to the tone and more controlled low end but also adds a ton of string buzz if the frets are not in perfect condition. What really surprised me though is when I noticed that one of the trem posts was too loose and I decided to replace it. As a result with new studs and posts I got more sustain and string response as well asthe improved attack. So it can be the case with your guitar too when a post is more loose in one position and more tight in another position, so it could transmit more vibration to the guitar body. And that's what gave you a fuller tone in this experiment. A bit wordy, but I hope you'll read it and try it for your next video. Would be glad to hear your thoughts on this. Many thanks!
Action and pickup height make a huge difference. I was about to change my PRS Se Custom 24's pickups. They were muddy witn too much bass. By lowering the pu height it opened up the top end a lot. Don't be afraid of experimenting.
very cool experiments! i am always messing around with string action, neck relief, pickup height... every little adjust make all difference... today i´m using just a little relief on the neck, .006'', and my action height is preatty low, 1,2mm using .011 strings, the pickups height i use very close on the bridge 1,2mm, neck 3mm, and my nut i cut preatty low making the action very low and improving intonation. But the best improvement that i did on my Gibby was to swapped out the alnico 5 magnet of my brigde pickup for an alnico 2 magnet, it improves alot make the sound more like slash tone, with a lot of mids...
It's always worth experimenting with these kinds of these. I've found that especially when it comes to action and neck relief, it's less about what I want as a player, and more about what the guitar performs best at. Some guitars love a low, shreddy action, while others need a much higher action to sound their best. -Kai
I've actually tested this too and the answer is NO! If you have your action too low the strings don't have enough room to move properly and that's what the issue was here. Pickup height plays a big part in your tone. Lower pickups = brighter tone and less output. Higher pickups = more output and fatter sound. Really as far as PAFs go the recommendation is to have the as high as you can without the strings accidentally touching the pickup cover. I've heard several "real burst players" say something along the lines of that - real PAFs are not that hot so you try and get all the output you can from them. 🤔 I haven't tried them myself so it's just what I've heard being said by people who have.
Great video. Over the years Ive bought and sold about 75 guitars/basses. Ive changed the pickups on two guitars and two basses. The pickups on those guitars were truly bad. The basses not so much but I just needed noiseless operation. I often replace the pots and output jacks because Im left handed and manufacturers rarely get the wiring correct for lefties. My favourite wiring scheme is the passive treble bass used by G&L. You can make a pickup sound like almost anything you want with it.
Yeah it's difficult to value things that you can't really measure. I can measure a noticeable difference in pickups but like I showed here - I can measure ~50x bigger difference by messing with the guitar setup. I can not really measure a change coming from wood resonance. I can measure it being there but comparing the strings ringing with and without wood resonance did not make any difference in the output volume or frequency output.
When you say you lifted the strings 1mm, do you mean you raised the bridge slightly via the thumb screws on either side? I'm curious if this results in a different string tension at the same pitch? Also did you keep the distance from the string to pickup the same after changing the string height? Or did lifting the strings create a bigger gap between the string and pickup?
Same distance between the pickup and strings maintained so lifting the bridge a tiny tiny bit and then lifting the bridge pickup to adjust. Same strings kept for all switches.
I totally agree, I noticed this ~4 years ago when I couldn't figure out why one of my EMG 81 equipped guitars sounded so different from the others (screechy/no low-end, and people say EMG makes everything sound the same, don't they). Then I increased the action on this guitar too, and suddenly the low-end came out. My theory is that too low a string action will dampen the fundamental vibrations of the strings, leaving only the higher harmonics. I also believe that you need a decent amount of neck relief, although I'm not so sure about that anymore.
if you drop 2 normal guitar picks between the strings and the fretboard at the 10 fret and they BARELLY get stuck, its perfect. otherwise its really just up to what you think feels comfortable other than the slight tone difference and possible buzz
@@Josh_728 cmon, my man was just asking. if you arent terminally online and looking very deep into this kinda stuff(like me, I have no life)you'll probably just catch wind of the old myths. yes, "tonewood" for electric guitars is bull because the pickups do not pick up sound. so the only "tone" you'll get out of the wood is when the guitar is unplugged. i'd say the only effect material has is sustain.
@@Josh_728 I think I at least saw the video where he made a "guitar" without a body at all. As someone who produces music next to play guitar who for real does not care for myths without evidence at all this series in indeed amazing. but man must that be painful for the people who bought very expensive electric guitars for its "tone wood" or some other crap. gonna check the other videos as well
So let me get this straight -- raising the string height (ie, moving the string away from the pickup) actually increased the output. And I totally understand, essentially they were too low before and choking out / fret buzzing to some degree. Man, this really reinforces the importance of good fretwork. This is actually a *huge* confounding factor of between-guitar comparisons lol. Drops the importance of tonewood even further down the list.
This is just amazing. I mean, it's obvious that string action has major influence on sustain, but I would have never ever thought that it also had such a noticeable impact on the overall tone. So have all these years hunting for the lowest possible action prove to be constantly shooting ourselves in the foot tone wise? I have a (stunningly beautiful 🤩) 2017 Les Paul HP that tone and feel wise never really clicked with me. Guess what I will be doing today in the evening?
Measure 3mm string height from the bridge pickup to the strings and fretboard wood at 22th fret to the strings. That's how I'm setting mine now. That's still quite a low action with a straight neck.
Remember you can also lower your pickup height(in most cases, at least). If you've got really low action but it's compliant enough with the neck so that they're still ringing out nice and clear, you can just lower the pickup height just a smidge to put them in that better sweetspot between it and the strings. Also keep in mind that in plenty of cases, you will not gain anything by doing this if it was already in a good place.
I've changed pickups on many of my guitars and am very happy with the result. BKP stuff is awesome and was a lot more affordable to me until recent years. all of my guitars are very cheap though.
Yeah I'm usually starting with quite good pickups to begin with so the change has never been huge. It's also very difficult to do a placebo test in these things unless you change new strings before the pickup swap and then record a before/after. That's been very revealing for me.
fun fact: BKP put new set of strings in every box just to make sure that people buying their pickups are checking them out on fresh strings. but yeah, there is no point in changing pickups right away and you should do some research before commiting to it. my goal was always to make sound brighter and clear with a lot of attack and less mud, so I usually change pickups when adjusting them is not helping@@mlsoundlab
This is cool and all.... maybe you or the others in chat could assist me with my problem? I used to be very into active pickups... to my ears they just sounded great and felt great under the fingers. More recently I've been playing some passive pickups and really noticing that I prefer them for a few reasons, a) the volume control has a more profound effect on tone vs actives b) the tone control as more profound effect than actives (its a fine tuner after EQ to dial back any shrill sounds) and c) I really seem to be having an issues with the active pickups hitting the front end of any amp I play way to hard and I feel like I'm loosing dynamics in that regard.... The pickups are the Fishmen fluence that came stock in a Shechter Keith merrow mk-III 7 string. I've had the guitar for around 3 years and I've always questioned the pickups as being sort of sus... but I've just kept it stock. I really want to try a set of passives that will be neutral and allow me some versitility of playing styles from really pristine cleans to screaming leads and chunky rhythms am I asking to much from the pickups? The guitar is within 10000ths of the factory spec and has been professionally been setup twice now... feels amazing to play, and sound amazing in SOME genres but falls short in the versatility area for me... if your still with me... any suggestions for passives that will replace these battery powered behemoths ? I am leaning towards the Lundgren M7s based on hearing they are fairly neutral, some of the bareknuckle pu's also seem like viable options and SD has so many offerings im perplexed before making any considerations! helps!
sorry for nitpicking but it got me thinking so you’ve raised your bridge 1mm you’ve raised the pickup 1mm to maintain the clearance now when you play something fretted, the strings are now get closer to the pickup the further up the neck you fret it. so essentially you’ve moved the pickup closer to the strings. and it kinda sounds like that in your demo. just a thought
The strings are not moving that much so close to the bridge on a Les Paul. It's about the strings not hitting the frets as much. People may not know this but very likely everyone's strings hit the frets at least a little bit. If they don't you actually get an out of control low end that likely clips your interface. 😮
Interesting video. I would point out a few things: *1) These are more or less comparisons across PAF style pickups. Even from the 1950s-1970s there was a great variation in PAF winds. So there is no "authentic" PAF.* Just the one the player likes. *If you try an overwound Alnico V PAF style pickup against a high output ceramic pickup vs. a low output Alnico II pickup, there will be differences.* *2) My favorite "PAF" I have tried in series is Gibson's 498t.* The 500t is brighter and thinner, and the Dirty Fingers is even more so. I tend to use hotter and brighter pickups for solos and melodies, while moderate output Alnico V pickups get rhythm tracks because there is more clarity and less high end on 4-6 rhythm tracks to cause ear fatigue. I often put low output Alnico IIs in the neck for warm clean tones and more expressive bends. Low wind, bright, ceramic magnet pickups might be in the neck if I want a bright clean tone like from a Roland JC120. *Pickups with a notable midrange scoop like the Seymour Duncan Custom 5 will be used for a more modern Mesa Boogie rock/metal tone, while a pickup with pronounced upper mids like the Gibson 498t will be used for a more vintage Marshall tone. These are both "PAF-inspired" pickups.* *3) Pickups sound different depending upon if they are wired in series/parallel/coil split/out of phase.* In my experience, Gibson pickups do not change in character very much when using different coil configurations. Using Seymour Duncan's Triple Shot pickup mounting rings with their Custom line, there is much more variation in tones. I have a Custom/Custom 5 BC Rich Mockingbird and I can get many sounds from that guitar. My Gibsons are really only useful in series. Different pickup combinations will sound different when out of phase due to varying comb filtering of frequencies, with some pairs having a more dramatic out of phase tone than others. *Again, results will depend upon each individual pickup manufacturer/model.* *4) Magnet strength, string gauge, and bridge type will determine ideal pickup height.* I normally use Floyd Rose bridges with active pickups. EMGs especially have a very low magnetic pull compared to something like a Gibson 500t, which is difficult to even solder a Triple Shot to because the strong 500t magnet will pull the soldering iron to the pickup. Floyd Rose bridges need room to move, so you have to make sure the strings are low but have full range of motion. Lower magnetic pull will permit closer action without killing sustain. Thicker strings will permit a fuller sound and can be adjusted slightly higher than thinner strings to get the same tone. String material also affects tone. *5) Ideal tone will depend upon musical genre.* Heavy metal prefers a tight low end, scooped lower mids, a pronounced upper midrange, and somewhat bright highs. *I agree that low to moderate output pickups retain clarity and dynamics and are best boosted by the amp. High output pickups are more compressed and darker without ceramic magnets but also cut through the mix. Generally, it is easier to boost a low output, bright pickup than to clean up a hot, dark pickup.* For this reason, I tend to avoid some pickups like Seymour Duncan Invaders, which to me are very hot and dark. *6) I would advise players to experiment with well known pickup models on the used market and go from there. These include the EMG 60/81, Seymour Duncan JB/Distortion/Jazz/59/Custom line, and DiMarzio Super Distortion/PAF Pro. As for Gibsons, I like the 498t/Classic 57 Plus, but the 500t/496r and Dirty Fingers/496r are common.* The market has become saturated with expensive custom shop pickup models from boutique winders over the past 10-15 years, often with only marginal improvements in sound quality. Pickups at or over $200 are ridiculous. *If you are unhappy with EMGs in 9 volts, try the 24 Volt Mod before moving on to more expensive and harder to find active pickups like Seymour Duncan Blackouts or Fishman Fluence pickups.* *7) Keep in mind that most Gibson factory pickups will be 2 conductor only with ground or shielded braid. Their aftermarket pickups are 4 conductor plus ground, with more modern pickups having a ground wire instead of a braided shield. Aftermarket Gibson pickups are also more expensive and more difficult to find on the used market than similar pickups by EMG, Seymour Duncan, and DiMarzio. To their credit, Gibson, like EMG's passive HZ line, has some modular plug and play pickups to make installation easier.* *If you want the basic EMG tone but with 4 conductor plus ground wiring possibilities, try the EMG HZ line. They are underrated. The active versions require special models or accessories for coil split/parallel/out of phase sounds. EMG accessories can only be run at 18 volts instead of 24.* *8) As the video pointed out, pickups are more about feel, which will affect how you play and dial in your sound and thus affect your tone.* I have 50-60 guitars and basses that I use for different things depending upon pickups. Because I play metal and need a brighter distorted tone, tone wood is really not an issue for me. Most guitars in this genre are black and so do not need expensive woods for intricate top finishes. Metal guitars are often made out of lighter and cheaper woods like alder, poplar, and basswood. Tone wood purists will say Floyd Rose bridges detract from the tone, but many licensed bridges use a light, cheap, iron/zinc sustain block instead of heavier brass like an Original Floyd Rose, Gotoh 1996t, or Schaller bridge. That said, for the genre, pickups/amp/boost pedal in front of the amp are very important. The way distortion saturates while maintaining clarity is key. Hope this helps.
Thank you for youre effort! With „the strings have more space to vibrate“, do you mean cause of not getting stopped by the magnetic field of the humbuckers or by less touching the frets (less buzzing)?
Fret buzz! But just to be clear there wasn't much audible fret buzz to begin with. My guitar neck is dead straight so if the action is just a tiny bit too low it'll touch so many frets that it affects the free movement of the string.
Your finding is really counterintuitive, as nobody would ever expect a higher pickup output for more distant strings… your abitual action setting was probably insanely low, if you had such a dampening effect! My abitual action at the 12th fret is 1.7-1.9 mm for the low E and 1.5-1.6 mm for the high E.
Hm, interesting. Why would raising the string action make such an audible difference? This would only make sense if the action was indeed so low previously that the strings could no longer vibrate freely but actually touched the frets. But that would have led to audible string buzz anyway, wouldn‘t it?
There thing is that people may not realize that their strings are very likely always touching the frets. Too high of an action is also bad and you will get really bad boomy low end. So you actually want those strings to touch the frets and "stabilize". It's just a fine line where you feel amazing to play and think it's not buzzing but it's just hitting the frets a little bit too much for the strings to move freely. So the end result is almost like you're not picking as hard as you really are. You can hear this much better acoustically then through an amp.
Changed both! Lift strings and made sure that the pickups were also raised to match the same distance. 3mm is the distance from bridge pickup cover to the strings in all these clips.
Likely set to factory default on all the LPs so quite low. I've heard some people say they fine tune that angle but honestly I'm not sure if it'd make any difference in tone. I'll likely test it at some point. Slash's guitar tech says he lifts it quite high so they don't break as many strings.
As long as the strings aren't hitting the back of the bridge you are fine, if they are then I would recommend lifting the tailpiece a little so they aren't. Bottom line they shouldn't be and they aren't supposed to be. So deck it and raise it until they aren't.
I have a somewhat utilitarian view when it comes to pickups. They are there to convert the mechanical energy of vibrating strings into an electrical current. There's no magic here, but in some cases there is enough of a difference in the tone that it just might move your decision to swap a given set of pickups. Ultimately, the decision is yours to make.
So, was the difference actually from the strings being higher or the pickup being further from the strings, or did you readjust the pickup height after raising the strings?
The bridge pickup cover is exactly 3mm away from the strings and also the fretboard after the 22nd fret measuring from the fretboard wood. My neck needs to be dead straight for this to work and I would say this is pretty much as low an action I will ever use. Also need to point out that having an action that's too high caused other problems too - the low end can get super boomy so you want those strings to "tickle the frets" a little bit. This is strange how much all this matters.
Thanks! That very much matches what I experienced when I started fixing some issues with my DGT SE. In between it got a new proper nut, which at first I just plugged in being for sure much too high. The sound changed drastically to be much too beefy and the thing was not that nice to play. Grinding it down slowly to reach an ok height changed the sound back. So for finding a good balance I’ll work on neck relief to get it in the sweet spot. The DGTs pickups are insanely good in my opinion and the guitar is too. Mine just needed a tad more love than the factory did give it in the first place.
A little extra love is always needed - factory setups are typically pretty inoffensive, but not the perfect suit for the player or the instrument. Always good to tweak it to best suit the sounds and feel you like to shoot for! -Kai
hey Mikko! when i was listening to your DI-s immediately thought damn thats why amps sims sound shit whit my guitars/setup. could you tell me your signal chain? and also what you think is the most important part of a signal chain to get a good sounding DI? thanks!
Honestly there's nothing special about it. This computer that I use for making videos runs an old Scarlett 18i20 because I need all the routing options. I just use the instrument input with the gain set to minimum. Very normal - likely not all that different from the cheapest instrument inputs on the market.
Super interesting! But I just want to know if the difference you got by changing the action also included lifting a bit the pickup height. I'm trying this today!
going between similar spec pickups definitely isnt much of a difference for sure, but going from some lower output paf to a high output humbucker with a lot more winds is a much more noticable difference. To me I usually find that hotter high dc resistance pickups have a much more rolled off high end and can sound really muffled in comparison to lower output pickups
Yup that's clear with the Slash pickup in this comparison too. That's the one that stands out but even those other pickups are hot PAFs and many of them are low wound ones and those really do not make a big difference. The thing is - even if there is a big difference, once it goes into an amp that difference becomes even smaller.
@@mlsoundlab for sure, the guitar i have where i really notice the pickup sound is my music man axis super sport cuz those pickups in it measure at like 18k for the bridge and 15k for the neck which is way higher than the rest of my guitars, and to make it sound like i wasnt putting a blanket over the sound i have the tone pot disabled on the humbucker pickup selections and its still quite dark
Thank you this is some huge study ! But what do you recommand ? I've got some attack i have to say, in between some smooth play Rock N Blues ! I mean, 3mm seems to be a little stronger to play, 2,5mm can be fine you think ? Most of guys put 2mm, that's the point of the video ? This 2mm is too low ? Again, thank you form France :)
I swapped PRS 58/15s for Custombuckers in my Hollowbody, and that Guitar feels AND sounds so much better now. IMO, PRS make superior guitars, but Gibson make far superior pickups. Unite the two and you get the absolute dream guitar. Correct setup provided, of course.
I quickly explain it right before switching to DI. Even the small amount of gain that ML800 has will only mask those differences even more and make the guitar matter less. So to maximize everyone's ability to hear the differences you want to listen to just the DI. This is pre-EQ and input volume for the amp so if you feel like the DI tone didn't change much - it's even more absurd when it goes through an amp and cab.
I am not really much of a guitar nerd, but I was initially excited to listen to the tonal differences in this video. However, as I realized the difference in sound is sometimes barely noticeable while the difference in price is extreme; I realized that I am glad I stayed in the reasonable range between 400$ - 900$ when buying a guitar, and never under any circumstances went overboard. There were a few beauties that I could not afford and had a hard time letting go of them, but I am glad I did. I select my new guitar first with my eyes, then I look at the price tag, if the price is right I will give it a test to see how it feels in my hands, and last but not least, I pick a decent amp to plug it in and hear how it resonates, if it has intonation issues, and to check if the strings are staying in tune or not. If one of those things doesn't work for me, I don't buy the guitar. I have zero desire to try and pimp that guitar hoping it will sound better if I put more expensive hardware in it. I do not do that. If the guitar does not work for me right off the shelf; trying to make it better by throwing more money at it is always a gamble. My point is, if you want to find the perfect guitar for you, it makes more sense to invest more time into searching for it, rather than just throwing more money at it expecting the one that is most expensive will win and love you back in return. If you don't dig it as is, don't buy it.
This was just a amazing video and you just saved me from spending some money on NEW pickups and the work to change them out! What a difference the small amount of higth made in the test. I will be trying this out on a couple of my Guitars.Thank you and a new subscribers, Slim.
This was mainly a test of PAF-style pickups and their adjacents, showing that there aren't really many differences between "good" and "bad" pickups in the same style. You will likely notice more of a difference when swapping from active to passives, or low output to high output for instance. -Kai
Nice video! Swapping pickups only makes sense if you A) have a good guitar with crappy pickups B) you totally want to change the vibe of a guitar. If you have a guitar with PAFs from a good manufacturer, swapping them for PAFs from another good manufacturer is most likely a giant waste of time and money. I had 2 very similar Les Pauls, one with Dimarzio PAF 59s and one with BBs. They sounded relatively close. I slightly preferred the one with Dimarzios, so I swapped the Burst Buckers for Bare Knuckle Alnico Nailbombs, and that completely changed the tone and vibe of the guitar. Now I have my classic rock LP, and my modern rock/metal one. That to me was scenario where a pickup change made sense.
You can try swapping pots Higher impedance pots will brighten - lower impedance will darken the tone Even just new, in spec pots make a difference Try a copper plate on the back of magnet like a Tele
As someone who's swapped a lot of pickups in my four decades of playing I've learned when to do it and when not to do it. Always focus the amp first, the speaker, the state of your cables, and the setup. Look for any other issue but the pickups. If after all that you still have a big tone issue, THEN think about pickups.
Instead of adjusting the action of the strings, would adjusting just the pickup height achieve the same result? Or is it the clarity that comes with higher action vs the slightly more dull sound of low action?
There's two things that can happen - in OP's video here, he seems to have been hitting some subtle string deadening on the neck, limiting how wide and clear the strings can ring. So raising the string height for him helped. But there IS another issue that can occur if your strings are too close to the pickups where the magnetism of the pickups is affecting the ability of the strings to ring as wide and clear as they could. So you need to keep in mind both possibilities. But yes, it is possible that lowering your pickup height can improve tone and output should they initially be set too close. Just remember it's easy to overdo it and lose output/tone by being too far away.
A super low action will choke the strings out a little bit - you can get a more "piano-like" sound out of a higher action, as the strings can move more freely. Adjusting the pickup height will have good effects, but really the more agreeable tone is when the strings have space to move. -Kai
Thank you for your financial and time sacrifice! What I learnt from listening to all these pickups is that the difference between them is at the 0.1% level. It would've been nice if you'd had some cheaper pickups in there for some extra comparison, but I can tell you are a man of refined taste 😛
You present a very logical case, sir. It is indeed interesting when someone discusses a 1959 Les Paul vs an R9 or humble Standard... they rarely, if ever, talk about the string height relative to the guitar (not the pickups). Action, yes... but not height off of the guitar body to create the perfect sound wave. We have been conditioned to equate action and relief with only feel or speed of playing... but forget the impact on tone, harmonics, and sheer output volume of the guitar. We've all seen guitar weight, wood type, pickup height, pole height, pots, caps, 50s wiring, magnet composition, ad infinitum all mentioned... but not the specific action relative to the body. Hmmm. A millimeter does seems trivial... but the maximum obtainable sound wave amplitude created by the changed angle/height of those micro adjusted strings would change... perhaps dramatically as you have shown in this video. Now, factor in the wood that reacts to that wave... and all of that hitting the pickups. Change that wave amplitude... then, and only then, move the pickups closer or further from the string to maximize its reproduction. You demonstrated that quite nicely. Thank you for reminding me I studied physics once upon a time but seem to forget all about it when lost in the mysticism that surrounds pickup windings and guitar marketing hype. There is a lost equation here that needs to be put back under the microscope more so than the pickups. Remember, Ted McCarty, Seth Lover, Leo Fender, and the rest of the gang were consummate tinkers, engineers, electricians, and inventors... not necessarily musicians (Les Paul himself being an exception). Slide rules, micrometers, and protractors...the tools of their trade. What else did they know about the tiniest of adjustments and forgot to tell us? Still on my bucket list - holding, playing, and savoring a moment with a genuine '59 LP... but now also wanting a luthier's ruler handy during that encounter. Cheers!
Sometimes used and old guitars need new pickups. I still use an old cheap Palmer guitar made in the 70's that had a rusty humbucker. I did not change out the single coil because it still to this day has quality sound. I do not remember the name of the passive humbucker that only cost me a hundred dollars when I bought it at Rhythm City back in the early 90's. The old pickup always sounded dull and dead as if I had never changed out the strings for many years despite being brand new strings. Changing pickups is not something to avoid and rule out after trying other things to fix the sound which could also be caused by faulty volume controls or soldering. My Palmer guitar always had high fret action, perhaps even too high, so string heighth was never the issue. A few years ago, I split the two pickups into two separate outputs and record the DI from both at the same time which I also have a GK-2 pickup and a separate string box and record an additional six string DI output which makes eight tracks being recorded simultaneously. I use several Roland virtual guitars such as VG-99, VG-88, GR-55, V-Bass which I use for modelling virtual pickups which are good enough for my recordings. Virtual guitars and pickups are not as good as the real guitars they are emulating but are still good. But I can hear why some people would not want to use virtual guitars, but the difference in tones between the real expensive guitars and the virtual guitars are very slim compared to the dead rusty pickup that I promptly changed out. Best decision I made and the only time I have changed to a new and different pickup.
Both the string action itself and the pickup height are both important. String action will determine how much space the strings have to oscillate. -Kai
Guitars have lots of different avenues that affect their sound. Having it setup and intonated gets you at the best starting point. After doing the work with pickup height and if your still not getting the tone then start looking into pickups. Pickups can make a big difference if everything else is sorted out before hand. Even in this video I was able to hear the differences between pick ups, yes some were minute differences but others like the 15/58 really made a bigger difference opening up the sound. When you’re chasing a tone those things matter.
It's less about whether or not they make a difference, and more about whether that difference is worth it - if you're deep-dive chasing tones, then it may be worth it to you, but most people would be better off adjusting many other areas of their signal chain prior to swapping pickups. -Kai
Miko, maybe you can tell me the DVD that has Ghari Moore. Playing is less Paul. What kind of pickups did he have in that pic Gibson? Because they are not gifts and pick ups. Curiosity is eating me up and i'm major gary moore Fan
I have pickups coming soon for a guitar project that is looking forward to those pickups, not to change the tone so much as to change the look of the axe. This guitar has one of the cheapest sets of pickups in the world, but they sound really good. Sound wise, they could stay, but I like for my guitars to look different after I've done things to them. That's THE reason this time.
I have swapped pickups in 2 guitars I don’t like real low action, so no need to raise mine One was a LP copy with weak pickups. I experimented with action, pole piece heights,set up, etc. But wanted something else I put in a Duncan P-Rail and JB. I got them both for under $100 each, and the guitar sounds so much better. The other was used and a previous owner had swapped out the pickups I already had bought a pickup for a build that never happed, so it was just sitting around not being used. So now that guitar has Duncan Distortions in it I sold the replacement pickups that it came with. But I have never felt the desire to swap out any other pickups
The epiphone P90s I had in my Wilshire muddier and honkier than the ones in my Gibson LP tribute, which are glorious. Ended up putting Lollar La Primas in my Wilshire.
There are also differences between pickups of the same model. It can sometimes be dramatic. One of my Burstbucker bridge pickups is incredibly bright. Another one is more balanced. I have to lower the treble side of the first one to even it out a bit. Also: I have '68 Custom Humbuckers in my LP Custom. I'm about to change them out for Whole Lotta Humbuckers. The '68 is really dark and the bass is undefined. The WLH set is so good. I have it in a LP Studio at the moment. They're probably my favorite vintage output humbuckers.
One other thing: everyone should buy on of the little metal guitar rulers, a capo, and a .010 feeler gauge. After using the specs for the guitar to setup the guitar, a person can slightly adjust things to their liking. Measure those distances for string height and pickup height. They can be maintained through any situations which might cause the wood and metal to expand or contract.
Oh yeah - string gauge plays into the string height thing a lot too. Lighter strings are brighter, but will move more due to having less tension. The pick pretty much only affects the initial chirp on the string, but it's a good one to experiment with for sure (and something we may even cover soon). -Kai
Speaking of the Les Paul you are holding just trivial comment but I don’t know why they call that veneered finish book matched because the pieces never line up it looks like they don’t even try to book match it.
There's only a few cases where swapping pickups out will "fix" your sound - though the Shiny New Thing effect may lead you to believe otherwise. It's worth looking at pretty much every other area in your signal chain before looking at pickups. Start experimenting with guitar setups, pickup heights, fresh strings and technique - these all have an impact on the sound, while not costing much at all. -Kai
Yeah, most people want as low string action as possible. Yngwie plays with a real high action and says he does this so the strings can move freely and get a much better tone...
It's pretty much a discussion of tone vs playability there - an uncomfortable action will result in worse-sounding guitar takes, regardless of how technically good the tone should be. A 3mm+ action isn't really something you could spring on a guitarist at the last minute in the studio, but adjusting to a not-slammed action is a good thing to try out for most guitarists. -Kai
People’s obsession with pickups is laughable to me. Some of the best guitar sounds I’ve ever had were with a $30 set of Chinese humbuckers. It’s not the gear people, it’s what you do with it!
It can still be a worthwhile experience, depending on what you're switching to/from. It's just worth doing everything you can to get your current pickups sounding their absolute best before you write them off! -Kai
@@mlsoundlab I appreciate that input. I think the hardest thing for me is not having a lot of experience with different pickups. I’m curious to try more, but I’m not the type to swap them myself frequently. It’s really more of a curiosity than a specific need at this stage. Wanting to try new stuff just to get a sense of my own preferences.
You're absolutely about changing out these pickups. I have a 89 standard Les Paul and I replace the pickups with the classic 57 pickups from Gibson and played for about a year and I returned back to the original pickups just was no Drive in those pickups at all but I played them out of custom shops from Gibson and they did sound good out of the custom shop Les Pauls I have another Paul that came with P90s I will never change the pickups in that
I've literally only changed my pickups on my 7 string because no matter what I did it was too muddy, it's also a cheap Washburn too so that probly has a lot to do with it.Same as my bass, changed my pickups in my Squire pbass cuz it was too muddy
adjusting pick up height and pole piece height on humbuckers makes a huge difference to how your current ones sound. experiment with that first ! example muddy dark sound? lower the pups and raise teh pole pieces slightly it brings it out into th elight. equally reverse for too brighta sound.
Great video. I have to ask-did you check out the pot values in relation to this test? You mentioned a circuit board for one guitar. Pot values definitely have some kind of impact on the sound. Maybe next time?
It's a test I've also done. That test was actually a bit of a let-down to be honest. One of my Gibsons had those 2000-era 300kohm pots as tone pots so those were darker sounding overall but I wasn't able to mess with the sound much by comparing a bunch of different 500kohm pots. I specifically had a bright sounding guitar that I wanted to "fix" to be darker. That test is still sort of not finished but different pots didn't fix it. 😮
@@mlsoundlabCool-I have one guitar that always sounded amazing. It was a Aria Pro II with Gibson Tony Iommi pickups. Took those pickups and put them in a great player but it wasn't the same. Checked out the pots and the Aria had 300k ohm pots, which is an odd rating. Used that pot and it made a difference. It's very much like your tests--the 500k pot was brighter, the 250k pot was darker. 300 was the sweet spot for that pickup. I can't stand that it really did make a difference to me. It's really cork sniffy, but I can tell. No one else might notice, but to me it was obvious when playing.
When playing with a band in metal the only difference I can tell in the mix is hums vs single and the old style hums have a certain clean chug to them, that's about it. Aside from that I dropped many dollars on SD BO's and 81/85's - wish I hadn't.
Pickups are essentially microphones. Would you be surprised to find that 16 different SM57’s don’t sound radically different to each other? That’s essentially what you’re doing when you try a bunch of PAF’s made with the same magnets, construction, and general number of winds.
@@mlsoundlab I still think a more accurate title for the video would be PAF replicas are more similar than they are different. I don’t think you proved that pickup swaps don’t matter, because PAF replicas are all essentially trying to replicate the same sound.
For sure, finding the sweet spot is important! Getting a great tone is crucial, but being inspired to play and comfortable is paramount to enjoying the experience. -Kai
For me, I can always enjoy a JB, Custom or an EMG 81. I've already been down the proverbial rabbit hole and would rather just stick with the classics. Shit can get overwhelming otherwise. Burstbucker sounds lovely but I'm not about to upend what I already have, can't afford that :p
@@mlsoundlab Don't show off bro, I've only just squashed the GAS I'm trying to save for a house! Anyhow, I do think proper set-up will be more beneficial than constant component swap. Good vid!
I think i know what a good acoustic sounds like but I have no Idea about electrics own a budget strat but cant really say where it sits in the hierarchy of guitars.Is it the amp or the set up or me?
We did some videos recently comparing a very expensive Gibson R9 to the Squier Mini Stratocaster, and quite a lot of people preferred the sound of the Squier. Guitars are more about the playability, the tuning stability, and the overall look and feel of the instrument rather than the sound. If you want to make the biggest change to your sound, look towards your amp before your guitar. -Kai
Finally people are catching up on this. Any kind of high gain configuration will get past tonewood and pickup intricacies. If anything it's the speaker and the microphone in front of it building most of the character of a take. Add the player's particularities and you end up with a pickup doing very little, let alone the choice of wood or how the neck gets attached to the body.
I have a 2005 Les Paul Standard that came with BBPs. I never liked those. I bought some Seymour 59s for it. Didn’t like those either. The 59s were better but really dark overall and with scratchy top end. I put 57 classics with 4 leads in and got some nice push/pull pots for tapping and phase and now it sounds awesome. I have a 2021 SG 61 Standard that came with 60s Burstbuckers. As with the BBPs in the LP I didn’t really like them. I bought some 490s for it. They are just ok. I got the 490s because they come in Les Paul Customs and they are similar construction to the 57s. The 57s have more of a classic vibe mid range with smooth top and just sit right in a mix. The 490s are a bit brighter, but not scratchy like the BBPs or the 60s BBs. I will either get more 57s for the SG or try the regular Burstbuckers which are like 57s that have not been wax potted. The common factor for the pickups I do and don’t care for are the magnet type. The ones that sound scratchy to me have alnico V magnets and the ones I like have alnico II. I find this to be the case for humbuckers where I prefer alnico II to V. However with single coils alnico V sound great. I tend to stay away from amp and speaker sims these days and usually go through a newer Vox AC-15 or a 70s Deluxe Reverb silverface or sometimes a small Marshall combo. I don’t use a lot of pedals if any in front of the amps and do delays and reverbs after the fact in plugins or outboard gear. I have quite a few guitars but have only changed pickups in 4 of them. I have a Gretsch 5422TG that I put TV Jones Filter’Tron classics in and a Squier Tele Classic Vibe that I put Fender Pure Vintage 64s in. I have an Epiphone Casino that I have some StewMac Parson Street P90s ready to put in but removing the stock Epiphone P90s is proving a bit of a chore to remove because the tabs are welded to the covers and I was hoping to keep the covers. Good chrome dogear covers that fit both positions are difficult to find because the Epis have different pole spacing for each and the StewMacs are the same.
Finally, a video that lives up to its click-baity title. I really hope you can get this one to go viral amongst the guitar community. I'm guessing that with a Les Paul, raising the action is just a half turn on the bridge standoffs and maybe pulling some of the saddles back if needed?
Do you think that high output pickups are more difficult to play because you have to work harder to get dynamics that... say a p.a.f. seymour duncan antiquity gets in spades? I think dynamics really are harder to get with high output pickups...its like the ceiling is hit and stays there you know? I am using a short and high quality guitar cord straight from numerous quality guitars and pickups into a '74 Marshall Superlead with post phase inverter master volume added. In other words, tone is superb when done this way....no loss from effect pedals and long cords. String height to polepieces same on all guitars. And this is my conclusion.... that high output pickups are not as responsive to dynamics as p.a.f.'s when played through a super reponsive tube amp such as plexi's.
Raising the strings gives more space for the strings to oscillate - if your strings are super low, they're going to slap against the frets and affect both your tone and your sustain -Kai
@@mlsoundlab Ah, I see. So the guitar as set up badly. I'm not really sure what that has to with pickup A vs pickup B. I think for this to be valid at all, you would have to start with a properly set up guitar.
Not badly by any means. My example was on the more extreme end - I'm talking about the tonal differences between a normal "low" action and a normal "high" action (read: both perfectly playable) -Kai
Lowering the pickups would've had much the same effect as raising your action It's quite common for pickups to be set closer to the strings than they need to be, there's definitely a 'sweet spot' as to where each individual pickup likes to be in terms of sounding at it's best Though it is also true that the lowest action you can get on a guitar isn't necessarily where the guitar's at it's best, case of finding that balance where everything most feels and sounds best to you I suppose, it's why I don't set my guitars up to measurements, the guitar, my hands and ears are what I let guide me not a height gauge or ruler
This is the way - I set up each guitar differently, based on how it reacts to different setups. I do use measurements once I've got it in the ballpark though, especially for string height. Having the height of the strings match the radius makes for a much better experience -Kai
I do match them to the radius @@mlsoundlab I'm old though so I started setting up and working on my guitars around 40 years ago, I nor anyone I knew had even heard of things like string height gauges None of us knew any luthiers or techs, nearest guitar shop was easily half a day's travel away by car and it was a tiny little place, just buying strings was like a whole day's trip there and back, no internet we could order stuff or learn stuff from Had to figure stuff out for ourselves and be inventive about using whatever tools we had available to us, even repurposing or making tools So yeah, came up with methods of following the radius, setting things up, levelling frets etc that would be shall we say be considered unconventional now, probably make luthiers cringe or even lose sleep if I described how I managed to do my first ever fret level, still amazed to this day that it actually worked lol
I feel like the when comparing higher end pickups to each other there are only tiny eq differences. But if you compare a cheap guitar’s stock pickups to quality pickups the difference is insane.
Oh yes it's important to know that bad pickups can be really bad. Like you said - once you have a quality pickup that's "healthy" then that seems to go a long way.
Some cheap pickups lack clarity, they have lower resonant frequency than what I would personally like or the resonant peak isn't as "pointy" as I would like. On the other hand the stock pickups in my old Squier Bullet Strat are really bright, I've seen a video of a guy soldering a bunch of capacitors in parallel with those exact pickups in order to tame that resonant peak a bit. I personally like the sound of those pickup even without such modifications. It's not that simple as cheap = bad, expensive = good, it's a matter of personal preference more than anything.
For the most part they're muddy.
Most stock pickups are high quality these days
If one dealer offers the same pickup for half price than another dealer - will his pickup be of lower quality because it is cheaper?
I can get pretty infuriated when someone on, say, Reddit goes "hey folks, guitar noob, can this guitar play thrash metal?" and people go "Yeeees but you DEF need to upgrade the pickups, those are way too mid-output". Like there's no other part in the chain that adds gain. And this is talking heavy distorted tones. Jeebus christmas.
You forgot the part where the pickups are more expensive than the guitar...
I heard someone said that half of the guitar gear market is based on the facts that most guitarists are lazy to operate an equalizer 😅
@search895 this can't be more true. Magical thinking and snakeoil marketing is so widespread into the audio hobbies and similar ones.
In no pro but if I add gain on my interface, the 200 guitar almost sound like the 3600 one. The feel is another thing and on low gain.
Output isn't the only factor in pickups...
Great advice here! I used to set my action as low as posible without having string buzz. But over time I realized that guitars sound better with higher strings. So since then I still go for the lowest possible height and then raise it just a tiny little bit.
Pretty sure it was the pickup legend Bill Lawrence whose advice was two nickels thick on low e and one nickel thick on high e for pickup height. Thats been my starting point for pickup height for years and I can adjust from there as needed. If Bill says that’s important, it is, I think this video helps prove that. I like these videos testing out things we’ve all accepted for years. Good stuff.
Thank you!!!
The nickel spacing is that top of the pickup poles to the bottom of the strings? I would imagine so. Does that go for both neck and bridge pickups? Thanks
The Bill Lawrence is a huge tone changer... and I love its sound personally. Super punchy bass. Clear distinct High end. If Nuno played a Les Paul with stock pickups on pornografitti... it wouldn't be a tenth as popular ... besides more than words lol
He man woman hater would have been a muffled wash
@@Eric-fb2wpyes, starting point is that setting for all pups. Remember to measure with the string pressed down at a high fret; put a capo on the 12th fret and the measure/adjust
@@honkytonkinson9787 The string should be fretted at the highest fret. I can't believe that some people, some of whom are "renowned experts", measure pickup height with the strings open! As far as I know the standard and only viable method to measure pickup height is with the string fretted at the highest fret on your guitar...period. And get a metal mechanic's rule...they're only about 100 nickels!
Why adjust the string height vs. easey to change the pickup height? What was the distance between string height and pickup in final recommendation? I have the same year 2016 lp.
The issue was not the pickup distance but my neck being set dead straight and strings hitting the frets too much. I didn't have a buzz going on either. Just the strings hitting the frets a little bit too much.
@mlsoundlab by coincidence, having the exact same problem that you had on the beginning of the vid; one amazing LP standard and 2 other LP:s that I want to bring to the same ballpark soundwise. Thank you so much for sharing the extensive shootout!
I have been meddling with the pickup height and pole screw height and have found very similar changes in the tone brightness and overtones especially that can help "open up" dynamics of a pickup.
Without changing anything but the pickup height the sound was muddy and boxy, always saturated when too close to the strings, and in a low position clear, rich overtones, clean - breakup available depending on aggression - I couldn't believe they were the same pups. So, after new strings and setting the action so that the strings vibrate properly, dynamic response can be further optimized by height adjustment :)
I also noticed a while ago improved tone when i raised the action on J.Custom Ibanez and it became harmonically more alive.
Yeah and sometimes it's very difficult to notice if your action is too low. It's not always clear.
my experience, too - if the action is higher, the guitar sounds more better
Hey, Mikko! I'm loving this new trend of talented individuals (such as yourself) dispelling some of the myths that we've believed for generations as guitar players.
I remember swapping some cheap Ibanez pickups for some BKPs, and while I did notice an improvement, I was underwhelmed at how little it was compared to the price I paid, at least as a predominately high-gain player. Since then, I've always paid very close attention to the differences in pickups, and with the exception of different pickup types (like singles vs humbuckers vs lipstick, etc), I've not once ever gone "Wow! What a difference!".
So it's wonderful to see folks like you, Glenn Fricker and Jim Lill absolutely crushing these tests. I know how much time and effort goes into these, and I sure do appreciate you sharing your findings, Mikko. Keep it up!
Thank you so much! These are things that bother me and not knowing why something is the way it is. Really I'm doing this for me and sharing the journey so it's all fun and games. 😄
Really BKP are very expensive and if you’re trying chase a certain tone I would never start with them. I would with Seymour Duncan or DiMarzio, very cheap price of entry and the best part is you can find used ones! Balling on budget used is the way to go. I’m sorry that happened to you with BKP.
It is kind of ridiculous that some very expensive pickups are marketed as being the cure for better high gain tones when in all actuality, high gain is the *least* demanding of the pickup, what with all the elements of the chain already present to sculpt the tone -- pre-drive EQ/boost (classic tube screamer trick for example), post-drive EQ, cabs, IRs, etc. The only thing I'd say is actually pretty important as a differentiating factor between mid-level pickups for high gain is noise.
And yeah, output is way overrated these days. Back in the day there was an argument for it, but nowadays everybody's got a pedalboard and clean gain is pretty cheap.
Did you try adjusting the pickup heights before adjusting the string height? Did it give the same results?
Pickup height will sort of be a separate video from this. The height was closely fine tuned here to be optimal. This was all on the bridge pickup so the setup is pretty much identical. Pickup cover is exactly 3mm from the strings. That is as high as you can go without string accidentally hitting the pickups. PAFs are usually set up just like this. You get less output and a brighter sound by dropping that pickup. I do that to the neck pickup if it's too muddy. 😊
I'm not sure if that's exactly the case, couse I played with the action on many of my guitar. The only thing that really poke out to me is if you lower the action to it's limit then strings start hitiing the frets when you hit it. If gives more punch to the tone and more controlled low end but also adds a ton of string buzz if the frets are not in perfect condition. What really surprised me though is when I noticed that one of the trem posts was too loose and I decided to replace it. As a result with new studs and posts I got more sustain and string response as well asthe improved attack. So it can be the case with your guitar too when a post is more loose in one position and more tight in another position, so it could transmit more vibration to the guitar body. And that's what gave you a fuller tone in this experiment. A bit wordy, but I hope you'll read it and try it for your next video. Would be glad to hear your thoughts on this. Many thanks!
Action and pickup height make a huge difference. I was about to change my PRS Se Custom 24's pickups. They were muddy witn too much bass. By lowering the pu height it opened up the top end a lot. Don't be afraid of experimenting.
very cool experiments! i am always messing around with string action, neck relief, pickup height... every little adjust make all difference... today i´m using just a little relief on the neck, .006'', and my action height is preatty low, 1,2mm using .011 strings, the pickups height i use very close on the bridge 1,2mm, neck 3mm, and my nut i cut preatty low making the action very low and improving intonation. But the best improvement that i did on my Gibby was to swapped out the alnico 5 magnet of my brigde pickup for an alnico 2 magnet, it improves alot make the sound more like slash tone, with a lot of mids...
It's always worth experimenting with these kinds of these. I've found that especially when it comes to action and neck relief, it's less about what I want as a player, and more about what the guitar performs best at. Some guitars love a low, shreddy action, while others need a much higher action to sound their best.
-Kai
Would lowering the pickups have had the same effect as raising the strings thus keeping the low action?
I've actually tested this too and the answer is NO! If you have your action too low the strings don't have enough room to move properly and that's what the issue was here. Pickup height plays a big part in your tone. Lower pickups = brighter tone and less output. Higher pickups = more output and fatter sound. Really as far as PAFs go the recommendation is to have the as high as you can without the strings accidentally touching the pickup cover. I've heard several "real burst players" say something along the lines of that - real PAFs are not that hot so you try and get all the output you can from them. 🤔 I haven't tried them myself so it's just what I've heard being said by people who have.
Can someone explain to me how did Keith Merrow get such a different sound on his video comparing SD pickups?
I've been wondering the very same thing!!
@@mlsoundlab somebody contact him ASAP!!! We need answers 😂
Great video. Over the years Ive bought and sold about 75 guitars/basses. Ive changed the pickups on two guitars and two basses.
The pickups on those guitars were truly bad. The basses not so much but I just needed noiseless operation.
I often replace the pots and output jacks because Im left handed and manufacturers rarely get the wiring correct for lefties. My favourite wiring scheme is the passive treble bass used by G&L. You can make a pickup sound like almost anything you want with it.
Jeff Kiesel even admits that pickups do more to shape the tone than the wood. Think about how useless it is to worry about tonewoods in that case.
Yeah it's difficult to value things that you can't really measure. I can measure a noticeable difference in pickups but like I showed here - I can measure ~50x bigger difference by messing with the guitar setup. I can not really measure a change coming from wood resonance. I can measure it being there but comparing the strings ringing with and without wood resonance did not make any difference in the output volume or frequency output.
When you say you lifted the strings 1mm, do you mean you raised the bridge slightly via the thumb screws on either side? I'm curious if this results in a different string tension at the same pitch? Also did you keep the distance from the string to pickup the same after changing the string height? Or did lifting the strings create a bigger gap between the string and pickup?
Same distance between the pickup and strings maintained so lifting the bridge a tiny tiny bit and then lifting the bridge pickup to adjust. Same strings kept for all switches.
@@mlsoundlab That's amazing that such a small change in bridge (or saddle) height had that much effect on output volume!
Action adjustments don't alter string tension. A string will always have the same tension in a specific tuning unless you change the scale length
@@RX120D That's what I thought too, so I wonder what accounts for the output volume change then?
I totally agree, I noticed this ~4 years ago when I couldn't figure out why one of my EMG 81 equipped guitars sounded so different from the others (screechy/no low-end, and people say EMG makes everything sound the same, don't they). Then I increased the action on this guitar too, and suddenly the low-end came out.
My theory is that too low a string action will dampen the fundamental vibrations of the strings, leaving only the higher harmonics. I also believe that you need a decent amount of neck relief, although I'm not so sure about that anymore.
if you drop 2 normal guitar picks between the strings and the fretboard at the 10 fret and they BARELLY get stuck, its perfect.
otherwise its really just up to what you think feels comfortable other than the slight tone difference and possible buzz
@@cyborgchimpynormal? Guitar picks have a variety of thickness. Which thickness is considered normal? 1.0mm or 1.5mm? What about 0.7mm and 2.0mm?
@@Josh_728 cmon, my man was just asking. if you arent terminally online and looking very deep into this kinda stuff(like me, I have no life)you'll probably just catch wind of the old myths. yes, "tonewood" for electric guitars is bull because the pickups do not pick up sound. so the only "tone" you'll get out of the wood is when the guitar is unplugged. i'd say the only effect material has is sustain.
@@reymondgopog426 I would say around 0.7.
@@Josh_728 I think I at least saw the video where he made a "guitar" without a body at all. As someone who produces music next to play guitar who for real does not care for myths without evidence at all this series in indeed amazing. but man must that be painful for the people who bought very expensive electric guitars for its "tone wood" or some other crap. gonna check the other videos as well
So let me get this straight -- raising the string height (ie, moving the string away from the pickup) actually increased the output. And I totally understand, essentially they were too low before and choking out / fret buzzing to some degree.
Man, this really reinforces the importance of good fretwork. This is actually a *huge* confounding factor of between-guitar comparisons lol. Drops the importance of tonewood even further down the list.
This is just amazing. I mean, it's obvious that string action has major influence on sustain, but I would have never ever thought that it also had such a noticeable impact on the overall tone. So have all these years hunting for the lowest possible action prove to be constantly shooting ourselves in the foot tone wise?
I have a (stunningly beautiful 🤩) 2017 Les Paul HP that tone and feel wise never really clicked with me. Guess what I will be doing today in the evening?
Measure 3mm string height from the bridge pickup to the strings and fretboard wood at 22th fret to the strings. That's how I'm setting mine now. That's still quite a low action with a straight neck.
Remember you can also lower your pickup height(in most cases, at least). If you've got really low action but it's compliant enough with the neck so that they're still ringing out nice and clear, you can just lower the pickup height just a smidge to put them in that better sweetspot between it and the strings. Also keep in mind that in plenty of cases, you will not gain anything by doing this if it was already in a good place.
I've changed pickups on many of my guitars and am very happy with the result. BKP stuff is awesome and was a lot more affordable to me until recent years. all of my guitars are very cheap though.
Yeah I'm usually starting with quite good pickups to begin with so the change has never been huge. It's also very difficult to do a placebo test in these things unless you change new strings before the pickup swap and then record a before/after. That's been very revealing for me.
fun fact: BKP put new set of strings in every box just to make sure that people buying their pickups are checking them out on fresh strings. but yeah, there is no point in changing pickups right away and you should do some research before commiting to it. my goal was always to make sound brighter and clear with a lot of attack and less mud, so I usually change pickups when adjusting them is not helping@@mlsoundlab
yeah BKPs have a pronounced sonic imprint. if you’re into that sound - you’re going to love them
I called them for pickups for a strat and they sent me irish tours. I'm very impressed.
You are very good at explaining things! Also I now want a studio tour video to see those Fenders you talking about 🤤
Oh boy... I can only keep one wall clean at a time 🤣🤣🤣
Great Video, What pickup height ,screw to string did you discover was the best
Great! Very informative vídeo! Quick Question: At what volume do you normally record your DIs in your DAW? -6DBs? -8DBs? -12DBs? Other? :) Thanks.
This is all instrument input with gain set as low as possible. 🎉
This is cool and all.... maybe you or the others in chat could assist me with my problem? I used to be very into active pickups... to my ears they just sounded great and felt great under the fingers. More recently I've been playing some passive pickups and really noticing that I prefer them for a few reasons, a) the volume control has a more profound effect on tone vs actives b) the tone control as more profound effect than actives (its a fine tuner after EQ to dial back any shrill sounds) and c) I really seem to be having an issues with the active pickups hitting the front end of any amp I play way to hard and I feel like I'm loosing dynamics in that regard.... The pickups are the Fishmen fluence that came stock in a Shechter Keith merrow mk-III 7 string. I've had the guitar for around 3 years and I've always questioned the pickups as being sort of sus... but I've just kept it stock. I really want to try a set of passives that will be neutral and allow me some versitility of playing styles from really pristine cleans to screaming leads and chunky rhythms am I asking to much from the pickups? The guitar is within 10000ths of the factory spec and has been professionally been setup twice now... feels amazing to play, and sound amazing in SOME genres but falls short in the versatility area for me... if your still with me... any suggestions for passives that will replace these battery powered behemoths ? I am leaning towards the Lundgren M7s based on hearing they are fairly neutral, some of the bareknuckle pu's also seem like viable options and SD has so many offerings im perplexed before making any considerations! helps!
sorry for nitpicking but it got me thinking
so you’ve raised your bridge 1mm
you’ve raised the pickup 1mm to maintain the clearance
now when you play something fretted, the strings are now get closer to the pickup the further up the neck you fret it. so essentially you’ve moved the pickup closer to the strings. and it kinda sounds like that in your demo. just a thought
The strings are not moving that much so close to the bridge on a Les Paul. It's about the strings not hitting the frets as much. People may not know this but very likely everyone's strings hit the frets at least a little bit. If they don't you actually get an out of control low end that likely clips your interface. 😮
Interesting video. I would point out a few things:
*1) These are more or less comparisons across PAF style pickups. Even from the 1950s-1970s there was a great variation in PAF winds. So there is no "authentic" PAF.* Just the one the player likes. *If you try an overwound Alnico V PAF style pickup against a high output ceramic pickup vs. a low output Alnico II pickup, there will be differences.*
*2) My favorite "PAF" I have tried in series is Gibson's 498t.* The 500t is brighter and thinner, and the Dirty Fingers is even more so. I tend to use hotter and brighter pickups for solos and melodies, while moderate output Alnico V pickups get rhythm tracks because there is more clarity and less high end on 4-6 rhythm tracks to cause ear fatigue. I often put low output Alnico IIs in the neck for warm clean tones and more expressive bends. Low wind, bright, ceramic magnet pickups might be in the neck if I want a bright clean tone like from a Roland JC120. *Pickups with a notable midrange scoop like the Seymour Duncan Custom 5 will be used for a more modern Mesa Boogie rock/metal tone, while a pickup with pronounced upper mids like the Gibson 498t will be used for a more vintage Marshall tone. These are both "PAF-inspired" pickups.*
*3) Pickups sound different depending upon if they are wired in series/parallel/coil split/out of phase.* In my experience, Gibson pickups do not change in character very much when using different coil configurations. Using Seymour Duncan's Triple Shot pickup mounting rings with their Custom line, there is much more variation in tones. I have a Custom/Custom 5 BC Rich Mockingbird and I can get many sounds from that guitar. My Gibsons are really only useful in series. Different pickup combinations will sound different when out of phase due to varying comb filtering of frequencies, with some pairs having a more dramatic out of phase tone than others. *Again, results will depend upon each individual pickup manufacturer/model.*
*4) Magnet strength, string gauge, and bridge type will determine ideal pickup height.* I normally use Floyd Rose bridges with active pickups. EMGs especially have a very low magnetic pull compared to something like a Gibson 500t, which is difficult to even solder a Triple Shot to because the strong 500t magnet will pull the soldering iron to the pickup. Floyd Rose bridges need room to move, so you have to make sure the strings are low but have full range of motion. Lower magnetic pull will permit closer action without killing sustain. Thicker strings will permit a fuller sound and can be adjusted slightly higher than thinner strings to get the same tone. String material also affects tone.
*5) Ideal tone will depend upon musical genre.* Heavy metal prefers a tight low end, scooped lower mids, a pronounced upper midrange, and somewhat bright highs. *I agree that low to moderate output pickups retain clarity and dynamics and are best boosted by the amp. High output pickups are more compressed and darker without ceramic magnets but also cut through the mix. Generally, it is easier to boost a low output, bright pickup than to clean up a hot, dark pickup.* For this reason, I tend to avoid some pickups like Seymour Duncan Invaders, which to me are very hot and dark.
*6) I would advise players to experiment with well known pickup models on the used market and go from there. These include the EMG 60/81, Seymour Duncan JB/Distortion/Jazz/59/Custom line, and DiMarzio Super Distortion/PAF Pro. As for Gibsons, I like the 498t/Classic 57 Plus, but the 500t/496r and Dirty Fingers/496r are common.* The market has become saturated with expensive custom shop pickup models from boutique winders over the past 10-15 years, often with only marginal improvements in sound quality. Pickups at or over $200 are ridiculous. *If you are unhappy with EMGs in 9 volts, try the 24 Volt Mod before moving on to more expensive and harder to find active pickups like Seymour Duncan Blackouts or Fishman Fluence pickups.*
*7) Keep in mind that most Gibson factory pickups will be 2 conductor only with ground or shielded braid. Their aftermarket pickups are 4 conductor plus ground, with more modern pickups having a ground wire instead of a braided shield. Aftermarket Gibson pickups are also more expensive and more difficult to find on the used market than similar pickups by EMG, Seymour Duncan, and DiMarzio. To their credit, Gibson, like EMG's passive HZ line, has some modular plug and play pickups to make installation easier.*
*If you want the basic EMG tone but with 4 conductor plus ground wiring possibilities, try the EMG HZ line. They are underrated. The active versions require special models or accessories for coil split/parallel/out of phase sounds. EMG accessories can only be run at 18 volts instead of 24.*
*8) As the video pointed out, pickups are more about feel, which will affect how you play and dial in your sound and thus affect your tone.* I have 50-60 guitars and basses that I use for different things depending upon pickups. Because I play metal and need a brighter distorted tone, tone wood is really not an issue for me. Most guitars in this genre are black and so do not need expensive woods for intricate top finishes. Metal guitars are often made out of lighter and cheaper woods like alder, poplar, and basswood. Tone wood purists will say Floyd Rose bridges detract from the tone, but many licensed bridges use a light, cheap, iron/zinc sustain block instead of heavier brass like an Original Floyd Rose, Gotoh 1996t, or Schaller bridge.
That said, for the genre, pickups/amp/boost pedal in front of the amp are very important. The way distortion saturates while maintaining clarity is key.
Hope this helps.
Thank you for youre effort! With „the strings have more space to vibrate“, do you mean cause of not getting stopped by the magnetic field of the humbuckers or by less touching the frets (less buzzing)?
Fret buzz! But just to be clear there wasn't much audible fret buzz to begin with. My guitar neck is dead straight so if the action is just a tiny bit too low it'll touch so many frets that it affects the free movement of the string.
I am never changing my pickup. THe Ram 2500 with the 6.7 Ram Cummins turbo diesel is the best pickup for me.
One day I'm going through my bucket list and taking a ride on your pickup! 😅
The Cumbucker
#TeamFordRanger
Your finding is really counterintuitive, as nobody would ever expect a higher pickup output for more distant strings… your abitual action setting was probably insanely low, if you had such a dampening effect!
My abitual action at the 12th fret is 1.7-1.9 mm for the low E and 1.5-1.6 mm for the high E.
Hm, interesting. Why would raising the string action make such an audible difference? This would only make sense if the action was indeed so low previously that the strings could no longer vibrate freely but actually touched the frets. But that would have led to audible string buzz anyway, wouldn‘t it?
There thing is that people may not realize that their strings are very likely always touching the frets. Too high of an action is also bad and you will get really bad boomy low end. So you actually want those strings to touch the frets and "stabilize". It's just a fine line where you feel amazing to play and think it's not buzzing but it's just hitting the frets a little bit too much for the strings to move freely. So the end result is almost like you're not picking as hard as you really are. You can hear this much better acoustically then through an amp.
You said you changed the string height, or did you mean you changed the pickup height? Can you please clarify? Thanks, Miko!
Changed both! Lift strings and made sure that the pickups were also raised to match the same distance. 3mm is the distance from bridge pickup cover to the strings in all these clips.
@@mlsoundlab Thank you for the clarity, much appreciate it.
Hi mikko! How do you set the tailpiece on you LPs? Is it as low as possible or is it raised a bit? Thanks
Likely set to factory default on all the LPs so quite low. I've heard some people say they fine tune that angle but honestly I'm not sure if it'd make any difference in tone. I'll likely test it at some point. Slash's guitar tech says he lifts it quite high so they don't break as many strings.
As long as the strings aren't hitting the back of the bridge you are fine, if they are then I would recommend lifting the tailpiece a little so they aren't. Bottom line they shouldn't be and they aren't supposed to be. So deck it and raise it until they aren't.
I have a somewhat utilitarian view when it comes to pickups. They are there to convert the mechanical energy of vibrating strings into an electrical current. There's no magic here, but in some cases there is enough of a difference in the tone that it just might move your decision to swap a given set of pickups. Ultimately, the decision is yours to make.
did you try pickups of different construction, i found rails give more clarity, and less harmonics, they fit better in my band mix
So, was the difference actually from the strings being higher or the pickup being further from the strings, or did you readjust the pickup height after raising the strings?
What was the measurements for the action after you raised it?
The bridge pickup cover is exactly 3mm away from the strings and also the fretboard after the 22nd fret measuring from the fretboard wood. My neck needs to be dead straight for this to work and I would say this is pretty much as low an action I will ever use. Also need to point out that having an action that's too high caused other problems too - the low end can get super boomy so you want those strings to "tickle the frets" a little bit. This is strange how much all this matters.
@@mlsoundlab I know it’s a lot to ask, but what is the measurement from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of string? Low and high e.
@@kevinwhite6172 It's pretty much 2mm exactly measuring from the fret at the 12th fret.
@@mlsoundlab thanks you so much.
Thanks! That very much matches what I experienced when I started fixing some issues with my DGT SE. In between it got a new proper nut, which at first I just plugged in being for sure much too high. The sound changed drastically to be much too beefy and the thing was not that nice to play. Grinding it down slowly to reach an ok height changed the sound back. So for finding a good balance I’ll work on neck relief to get it in the sweet spot. The DGTs pickups are insanely good in my opinion and the guitar is too. Mine just needed a tad more love than the factory did give it in the first place.
A little extra love is always needed - factory setups are typically pretty inoffensive, but not the perfect suit for the player or the instrument. Always good to tweak it to best suit the sounds and feel you like to shoot for!
-Kai
hey Mikko! when i was listening to your DI-s immediately thought damn thats why amps sims sound shit whit my guitars/setup. could you tell me your signal chain? and also what you think is the most important part of a signal chain to get a good sounding DI? thanks!
Honestly there's nothing special about it. This computer that I use for making videos runs an old Scarlett 18i20 because I need all the routing options. I just use the instrument input with the gain set to minimum. Very normal - likely not all that different from the cheapest instrument inputs on the market.
Out of interest, could you please tell us what string (action) height you settled on, measured at the 12th fret in inches or millimetres?
Super interesting! But I just want to know if the difference you got by changing the action also included lifting a bit the pickup height. I'm trying this today!
going between similar spec pickups definitely isnt much of a difference for sure, but going from some lower output paf to a high output humbucker with a lot more winds is a much more noticable difference. To me I usually find that hotter high dc resistance pickups have a much more rolled off high end and can sound really muffled in comparison to lower output pickups
Yup that's clear with the Slash pickup in this comparison too. That's the one that stands out but even those other pickups are hot PAFs and many of them are low wound ones and those really do not make a big difference. The thing is - even if there is a big difference, once it goes into an amp that difference becomes even smaller.
@@mlsoundlab for sure, the guitar i have where i really notice the pickup sound is my music man axis super sport cuz those pickups in it measure at like 18k for the bridge and 15k for the neck which is way higher than the rest of my guitars, and to make it sound like i wasnt putting a blanket over the sound i have the tone pot disabled on the humbucker pickup selections and its still quite dark
Thank you this is some huge study ! But what do you recommand ? I've got some attack i have to say, in between some smooth play Rock N Blues ! I mean, 3mm seems to be a little stronger to play, 2,5mm can be fine you think ? Most of guys put 2mm, that's the point of the video ? This 2mm is too low ? Again, thank you form France :)
I swapped PRS 58/15s for Custombuckers in my Hollowbody, and that Guitar feels AND sounds so much better now. IMO, PRS make superior guitars, but Gibson make far superior pickups. Unite the two and you get the absolute dream guitar. Correct setup provided, of course.
Is there any reason why you company only DI sound and not using ML800 when comparing tone ?
I quickly explain it right before switching to DI. Even the small amount of gain that ML800 has will only mask those differences even more and make the guitar matter less. So to maximize everyone's ability to hear the differences you want to listen to just the DI. This is pre-EQ and input volume for the amp so if you feel like the DI tone didn't change much - it's even more absurd when it goes through an amp and cab.
Let me ask, does your interface input gain set on 0 for every example?
Yes everything is intentionally kept 100% the same. Just not enough time to go through everything in a video like this.
I am not really much of a guitar nerd, but I was initially excited to listen to the tonal differences in this video. However, as I realized the difference in sound is sometimes barely noticeable while the difference in price is extreme; I realized that I am glad I stayed in the reasonable range between 400$ - 900$ when buying a guitar, and never under any circumstances went overboard.
There were a few beauties that I could not afford and had a hard time letting go of them, but I am glad I did.
I select my new guitar first with my eyes, then I look at the price tag, if the price is right I will give it a test to see how it feels in my hands, and last but not least, I pick a decent amp to plug it in and hear how it resonates, if it has intonation issues, and to check if the strings are staying in tune or not. If one of those things doesn't work for me, I don't buy the guitar. I have zero desire to try and pimp that guitar hoping it will sound better if I put more expensive hardware in it. I do not do that. If the guitar does not work for me right off the shelf; trying to make it better by throwing more money at it is always a gamble. My point is, if you want to find the perfect guitar for you, it makes more sense to invest more time into searching for it, rather than just throwing more money at it expecting the one that is most expensive will win and love you back in return. If you don't dig it as is, don't buy it.
This was just a amazing video and you just saved me from spending some money on NEW pickups and the work to change them out! What a difference the small amount of higth made in the test. I will be trying this out on a couple of my Guitars.Thank you and a new subscribers, Slim.
Glad you found it useful, thanks for stopping by!
-Kai
what about the dmazio pickups tho? If im switching from jacksons EMG's to dmazio Utopia pickups i should be getting different tone.
This was mainly a test of PAF-style pickups and their adjacents, showing that there aren't really many differences between "good" and "bad" pickups in the same style. You will likely notice more of a difference when swapping from active to passives, or low output to high output for instance.
-Kai
Nice video! Swapping pickups only makes sense if you A) have a good guitar with crappy pickups B) you totally want to change the vibe of a guitar. If you have a guitar with PAFs from a good manufacturer, swapping them for PAFs from another good manufacturer is most likely a giant waste of time and money. I had 2 very similar Les Pauls, one with Dimarzio PAF 59s and one with BBs. They sounded relatively close. I slightly preferred the one with Dimarzios, so I swapped the Burst Buckers for Bare Knuckle Alnico Nailbombs, and that completely changed the tone and vibe of the guitar. Now I have my classic rock LP, and my modern rock/metal one. That to me was scenario where a pickup change made sense.
You can try swapping pots
Higher impedance pots will brighten - lower impedance will darken the tone
Even just new, in spec pots make a difference
Try a copper plate on the back of magnet like a Tele
As someone who's swapped a lot of pickups in my four decades of playing I've learned when to do it and when not to do it. Always focus the amp first, the speaker, the state of your cables, and the setup. Look for any other issue but the pickups. If after all that you still have a big tone issue, THEN think about pickups.
Instead of adjusting the action of the strings, would adjusting just the pickup height achieve the same result? Or is it the clarity that comes with higher action vs the slightly more dull sound of low action?
There's two things that can happen - in OP's video here, he seems to have been hitting some subtle string deadening on the neck, limiting how wide and clear the strings can ring. So raising the string height for him helped. But there IS another issue that can occur if your strings are too close to the pickups where the magnetism of the pickups is affecting the ability of the strings to ring as wide and clear as they could. So you need to keep in mind both possibilities. But yes, it is possible that lowering your pickup height can improve tone and output should they initially be set too close. Just remember it's easy to overdo it and lose output/tone by being too far away.
A super low action will choke the strings out a little bit - you can get a more "piano-like" sound out of a higher action, as the strings can move more freely. Adjusting the pickup height will have good effects, but really the more agreeable tone is when the strings have space to move.
-Kai
Thank you for your financial and time sacrifice! What I learnt from listening to all these pickups is that the difference between them is at the 0.1% level. It would've been nice if you'd had some cheaper pickups in there for some extra comparison, but I can tell you are a man of refined taste 😛
Cool my one LP copy has Slash pickups, always enjoyed them, but I understand the point. Lambertones aren't going to save my shrill tone
Slash pickups were quite a bit brighter than "PAF"s. But still with high gain the difference is not huge.
You present a very logical case, sir. It is indeed interesting when someone discusses a 1959 Les Paul vs an R9 or humble Standard... they rarely, if ever, talk about the string height relative to the guitar (not the pickups). Action, yes... but not height off of the guitar body to create the perfect sound wave. We have been conditioned to equate action and relief with only feel or speed of playing... but forget the impact on tone, harmonics, and sheer output volume of the guitar. We've all seen guitar weight, wood type, pickup height, pole height, pots, caps, 50s wiring, magnet composition, ad infinitum all mentioned... but not the specific action relative to the body. Hmmm. A millimeter does seems trivial... but the maximum obtainable sound wave amplitude created by the changed angle/height of those micro adjusted strings would change... perhaps dramatically as you have shown in this video. Now, factor in the wood that reacts to that wave... and all of that hitting the pickups. Change that wave amplitude... then, and only then, move the pickups closer or further from the string to maximize its reproduction. You demonstrated that quite nicely. Thank you for reminding me I studied physics once upon a time but seem to forget all about it when lost in the mysticism that surrounds pickup windings and guitar marketing hype. There is a lost equation here that needs to be put back under the microscope more so than the pickups. Remember, Ted McCarty, Seth Lover, Leo Fender, and the rest of the gang were consummate tinkers, engineers, electricians, and inventors... not necessarily musicians (Les Paul himself being an exception). Slide rules, micrometers, and protractors...the tools of their trade. What else did they know about the tiniest of adjustments and forgot to tell us? Still on my bucket list - holding, playing, and savoring a moment with a genuine '59 LP... but now also wanting a luthier's ruler handy during that encounter. Cheers!
Again a great video Mikko. An eye opener that will save me a lot. Yngwie's string height is also pretty high I noticed earlier.Thx a lot !
Sometimes used and old guitars need new pickups. I still use an old cheap Palmer guitar made in the 70's that had a rusty humbucker. I did not change out the single coil because it still to this day has quality sound. I do not remember the name of the passive humbucker that only cost me a hundred dollars when I bought it at Rhythm City back in the early 90's. The old pickup always sounded dull and dead as if I had never changed out the strings for many years despite being brand new strings. Changing pickups is not something to avoid and rule out after trying other things to fix the sound which could also be caused by faulty volume controls or soldering. My Palmer guitar always had high fret action, perhaps even too high, so string heighth was never the issue. A few years ago, I split the two pickups into two separate outputs and record the DI from both at the same time which I also have a GK-2 pickup and a separate string box and record an additional six string DI output which makes eight tracks being recorded simultaneously. I use several Roland virtual guitars such as VG-99, VG-88, GR-55, V-Bass which I use for modelling virtual pickups which are good enough for my recordings. Virtual guitars and pickups are not as good as the real guitars they are emulating but are still good. But I can hear why some people would not want to use virtual guitars, but the difference in tones between the real expensive guitars and the virtual guitars are very slim compared to the dead rusty pickup that I promptly changed out. Best decision I made and the only time I have changed to a new and different pickup.
Is it really the string action or the string height off of the pickup I think it’s off the pickup that makes the difference
Both the string action itself and the pickup height are both important. String action will determine how much space the strings have to oscillate.
-Kai
Guitars have lots of different avenues that affect their sound. Having it setup and intonated gets you at the best starting point. After doing the work with pickup height and if your still not getting the tone then start looking into pickups. Pickups can make a big difference if everything else is sorted out before hand. Even in this video I was able to hear the differences between pick ups, yes some were minute differences but others like the 15/58 really made a bigger difference opening up the sound. When you’re chasing a tone those things matter.
It's less about whether or not they make a difference, and more about whether that difference is worth it - if you're deep-dive chasing tones, then it may be worth it to you, but most people would be better off adjusting many other areas of their signal chain prior to swapping pickups.
-Kai
Miko, maybe you can tell me the DVD that has Ghari Moore. Playing is less Paul. What kind of pickups did he have in that pic Gibson? Because they are not gifts and pick ups.
Curiosity is eating me up and i'm major gary moore Fan
I have pickups coming soon for a guitar project that is looking forward to those pickups, not to change the tone so much as to change the look of the axe. This guitar has one of the cheapest sets of pickups in the world, but they sound really good. Sound wise, they could stay, but I like for my guitars to look different after I've done things to them. That's THE reason this time.
I have swapped pickups in 2 guitars
I don’t like real low action, so no need to raise mine
One was a LP copy with weak pickups.
I experimented with action, pole piece heights,set up, etc.
But wanted something else
I put in a Duncan P-Rail and JB. I got them both for under $100 each, and the guitar sounds so much better.
The other was used and a previous owner had swapped out the pickups
I already had bought a pickup for a build that never happed, so it was just sitting around not being used.
So now that guitar has Duncan Distortions in it
I sold the replacement pickups that it came with.
But I have never felt the desire to swap out any other pickups
Can you do comparisons on say Epiphone P90 to Gibson P90? Cheap verses expensive?
The epiphone P90s I had in my Wilshire muddier and honkier than the ones in my Gibson LP tribute, which are glorious. Ended up putting Lollar La Primas in my Wilshire.
There are also differences between pickups of the same model. It can sometimes be dramatic. One of my Burstbucker bridge pickups is incredibly bright. Another one is more balanced. I have to lower the treble side of the first one to even it out a bit.
Also: I have '68 Custom Humbuckers in my LP Custom. I'm about to change them out for Whole Lotta Humbuckers. The '68 is really dark and the bass is undefined. The WLH set is so good. I have it in a LP Studio at the moment. They're probably my favorite vintage output humbuckers.
One other thing: everyone should buy on of the little metal guitar rulers, a capo, and a .010 feeler gauge. After using the specs for the guitar to setup the guitar, a person can slightly adjust things to their liking. Measure those distances for string height and pickup height. They can be maintained through any situations which might cause the wood and metal to expand or contract.
I think there is an interesting cabinet standing on Zilla ;-)
😂 Oooopsie!
The string gauges and the metals used to make them make an enormous difference to me and what plectrum I use.
Oh yeah - string gauge plays into the string height thing a lot too. Lighter strings are brighter, but will move more due to having less tension. The pick pretty much only affects the initial chirp on the string, but it's a good one to experiment with for sure (and something we may even cover soon).
-Kai
Speaking of the Les Paul you are holding just trivial comment but I don’t know why they call that veneered finish book matched because the pieces never line up it looks like they don’t even try to book match it.
I got your point bro but you need you need to move the control knob and get the best of it in order to compare it. and that is how you compare it
so if i love the current action and playability of my guitar but want different sounds, I'm allowed to buy new pickups?
You're allowed to change your pickup height too 😄
-Kai
You could also just buy an EQ pedal...
@@mlsoundlab so I can't buy new pickups just yet?? 😢😢😢
@@maynardburger pls just lemme buy new pickups
There's only a few cases where swapping pickups out will "fix" your sound - though the Shiny New Thing effect may lead you to believe otherwise. It's worth looking at pretty much every other area in your signal chain before looking at pickups. Start experimenting with guitar setups, pickup heights, fresh strings and technique - these all have an impact on the sound, while not costing much at all.
-Kai
Thanks for this well controlled study! Great tip, I'll have to go try it!
You did GOOD, sir! Science to solve a problem instead of magic tonewoods. I am proud you got through this for all of us!
We're generally equal parts magic and science here at ML, but our tests are all-science 😇
-Kai
Yeah, most people want as low string action as possible. Yngwie plays with a real high action and says he does this so the strings can move freely and get a much better tone...
It's pretty much a discussion of tone vs playability there - an uncomfortable action will result in worse-sounding guitar takes, regardless of how technically good the tone should be. A 3mm+ action isn't really something you could spring on a guitarist at the last minute in the studio, but adjusting to a not-slammed action is a good thing to try out for most guitarists.
-Kai
People’s obsession with pickups is laughable to me. Some of the best guitar sounds I’ve ever had were with a $30 set of Chinese humbuckers. It’s not the gear people, it’s what you do with it!
String height creates snappy tension and volume perhaps that’s why
Thank you for sharing this! I've been on the fence about changing out the pickups in my LTD. This makes me more hesitant to do so.
It can still be a worthwhile experience, depending on what you're switching to/from. It's just worth doing everything you can to get your current pickups sounding their absolute best before you write them off!
-Kai
@@mlsoundlab I appreciate that input. I think the hardest thing for me is not having a lot of experience with different pickups. I’m curious to try more, but I’m not the type to swap them myself frequently. It’s really more of a curiosity than a specific need at this stage. Wanting to try new stuff just to get a sense of my own preferences.
You're absolutely about changing out these pickups.
I have a 89 standard Les Paul and I replace the pickups with the classic 57 pickups from Gibson and played for about a year and I returned back to the original pickups just was no Drive in those pickups at all but I played them out of custom shops from Gibson and they did sound good out of the custom shop Les Pauls I have another Paul that came with P90s I will never change the pickups in that
classic 57 Gibson pickups are the worst pickups I've ever had in a guitar. immediately replaced them with Slash pickups when I bought my Les Paul
true I wasted $ changing pick ups when all I need is a good 7 band equalizer.
I've literally only changed my pickups on my 7 string because no matter what I did it was too muddy, it's also a cheap Washburn too so that probly has a lot to do with it.Same as my bass, changed my pickups in my Squire pbass cuz it was too muddy
adjusting pick up height and pole piece height on humbuckers makes a huge difference to how your current ones sound. experiment with that first ! example muddy dark sound? lower the pups and raise teh pole pieces slightly it brings it out into th elight. equally reverse for too brighta sound.
Great video.
I have to ask-did you check out the pot values in relation to this test? You mentioned a circuit board for one guitar. Pot values definitely have some kind of impact on the sound. Maybe next time?
It's a test I've also done. That test was actually a bit of a let-down to be honest. One of my Gibsons had those 2000-era 300kohm pots as tone pots so those were darker sounding overall but I wasn't able to mess with the sound much by comparing a bunch of different 500kohm pots. I specifically had a bright sounding guitar that I wanted to "fix" to be darker. That test is still sort of not finished but different pots didn't fix it. 😮
@@mlsoundlabCool-I have one guitar that always sounded amazing. It was a Aria Pro II with Gibson Tony Iommi pickups. Took those pickups and put them in a great player but it wasn't the same. Checked out the pots and the Aria had 300k ohm pots, which is an odd rating. Used that pot and it made a difference. It's very much like your tests--the 500k pot was brighter, the 250k pot was darker. 300 was the sweet spot for that pickup.
I can't stand that it really did make a difference to me. It's really cork sniffy, but I can tell. No one else might notice, but to me it was obvious when playing.
When playing with a band in metal the only difference I can tell in the mix is hums vs single and the old style hums have a certain clean chug to them, that's about it. Aside from that I dropped many dollars on SD BO's and 81/85's - wish I hadn't.
Pickups are essentially microphones. Would you be surprised to find that 16 different SM57’s don’t sound radically different to each other? That’s essentially what you’re doing when you try a bunch of PAF’s made with the same magnets, construction, and general number of winds.
The specs of these are all over the place. Different magnets - some are low winds like custombucker and PRS but sure they're all PAFs.
@@mlsoundlab I still think a more accurate title for the video would be PAF replicas are more similar than they are different. I don’t think you proved that pickup swaps don’t matter, because PAF replicas are all essentially trying to replicate the same sound.
Pickups have nothing to do with microphones. Nothing which applies to how a microphone works applies to a guitar pickup. Pickups are magnets.
Thank for this video friend, you have a great way explaining things.
I was worried things would be too geeky 😂
I used to play higher action and I've flipped to low action and it's been mint for the tone and the feel.
Need to take the time and find that balance
For sure, finding the sweet spot is important! Getting a great tone is crucial, but being inspired to play and comfortable is paramount to enjoying the experience.
-Kai
For me, I can always enjoy a JB, Custom or an EMG 81. I've already been down the proverbial rabbit hole and would rather just stick with the classics. Shit can get overwhelming otherwise.
Burstbucker sounds lovely but I'm not about to upend what I already have, can't afford that :p
I have some 80s OG Duncans that I need to test out once I get a chance!
@@mlsoundlab Don't show off bro, I've only just squashed the GAS I'm trying to save for a house!
Anyhow, I do think proper set-up will be more beneficial than constant component swap. Good vid!
I think i know what a good acoustic sounds like but I have no Idea about electrics own a budget strat but cant really say where it sits in the hierarchy of guitars.Is it the amp or the set up or me?
We did some videos recently comparing a very expensive Gibson R9 to the Squier Mini Stratocaster, and quite a lot of people preferred the sound of the Squier. Guitars are more about the playability, the tuning stability, and the overall look and feel of the instrument rather than the sound. If you want to make the biggest change to your sound, look towards your amp before your guitar.
-Kai
Finally people are catching up on this. Any kind of high gain configuration will get past tonewood and pickup intricacies. If anything it's the speaker and the microphone in front of it building most of the character of a take. Add the player's particularities and you end up with a pickup doing very little, let alone the choice of wood or how the neck gets attached to the body.
Tonewood is not a thing, if we're talking the amplified tone.
I have a 2005 Les Paul Standard that came with BBPs. I never liked those. I bought some Seymour 59s for it. Didn’t like those either. The 59s were better but really dark overall and with scratchy top end. I put 57 classics with 4 leads in and got some nice push/pull pots for tapping and phase and now it sounds awesome. I have a 2021 SG 61 Standard that came with 60s Burstbuckers. As with the BBPs in the LP I didn’t really like them. I bought some 490s for it. They are just ok. I got the 490s because they come in Les Paul Customs and they are similar construction to the 57s. The 57s have more of a classic vibe mid range with smooth top and just sit right in a mix. The 490s are a bit brighter, but not scratchy like the BBPs or the 60s BBs. I will either get more 57s for the SG or try the regular Burstbuckers which are like 57s that have not been wax potted. The common factor for the pickups I do and don’t care for are the magnet type. The ones that sound scratchy to me have alnico V magnets and the ones I like have alnico II. I find this to be the case for humbuckers where I prefer alnico II to V. However with single coils alnico V sound great. I tend to stay away from amp and speaker sims these days and usually go through a newer Vox AC-15 or a 70s Deluxe Reverb silverface or sometimes a small Marshall combo. I don’t use a lot of pedals if any in front of the amps and do delays and reverbs after the fact in plugins or outboard gear. I have quite a few guitars but have only changed pickups in 4 of them. I have a Gretsch 5422TG that I put TV Jones Filter’Tron classics in and a Squier Tele Classic Vibe that I put Fender Pure Vintage 64s in. I have an Epiphone Casino that I have some StewMac Parson Street P90s ready to put in but removing the stock Epiphone P90s is proving a bit of a chore to remove because the tabs are welded to the covers and I was hoping to keep the covers. Good chrome dogear covers that fit both positions are difficult to find because the Epis have different pole spacing for each and the StewMacs are the same.
Was it the action or the pickup height?
Action was just a bit too low. Pickup height was 3mm from the strings in all these clips.
Ton of pickups... Various setups... Spreadsheets. This actually looks like loads of fun.
Learning is fun!
-Kai
You kind of invented hot water here but glad you made the discovery :)
Finally, a video that lives up to its click-baity title. I really hope you can get this one to go viral amongst the guitar community. I'm guessing that with a Les Paul, raising the action is just a half turn on the bridge standoffs and maybe pulling some of the saddles back if needed?
Do you think that high output pickups are more difficult to play because you have to work harder to get dynamics that... say a p.a.f. seymour duncan antiquity gets in spades? I think dynamics really are harder to get with high output pickups...its like the ceiling is hit and stays there you know? I am using a short and high quality guitar cord straight from numerous quality guitars and pickups into a '74 Marshall Superlead with post phase inverter master volume added. In other words, tone is superb when done this way....no loss from effect pedals and long cords. String height to polepieces same on all guitars. And this is my conclusion.... that high output pickups are not as responsive to dynamics as p.a.f.'s when played through a super reponsive tube amp such as plexi's.
Great analysis. Like always Mikko.
Thank you!! 😊
I use a machinist ruler to set my pickup height. If I change string height in any way, I adjust my pickup height.
On point Mikko. Thanks for that clear and enlighting video. Take care.
I hope people are not getting those new $1000 59 Gibson humbuckers that were released after making this video. 😂
But I did have a friend of mine that had a less paul and had to DiMaggio's and it sounded great
Why raise the strings instead of just lowering the pickups?
Raising the strings gives more space for the strings to oscillate - if your strings are super low, they're going to slap against the frets and affect both your tone and your sustain
-Kai
@@mlsoundlab Ah, I see. So the guitar as set up badly. I'm not really sure what that has to with pickup A vs pickup B. I think for this to be valid at all, you would have to start with a properly set up guitar.
Not badly by any means. My example was on the more extreme end - I'm talking about the tonal differences between a normal "low" action and a normal "high" action (read: both perfectly playable)
-Kai
Lowering the pickups would've had much the same effect as raising your action
It's quite common for pickups to be set closer to the strings than they need to be, there's definitely a 'sweet spot' as to where each individual pickup likes to be in terms of sounding at it's best
Though it is also true that the lowest action you can get on a guitar isn't necessarily where the guitar's at it's best, case of finding that balance where everything most feels and sounds best to you I suppose, it's why I don't set my guitars up to measurements, the guitar, my hands and ears are what I let guide me not a height gauge or ruler
This is the way - I set up each guitar differently, based on how it reacts to different setups. I do use measurements once I've got it in the ballpark though, especially for string height. Having the height of the strings match the radius makes for a much better experience
-Kai
I do match them to the radius @@mlsoundlab
I'm old though so I started setting up and working on my guitars around 40 years ago, I nor anyone I knew had even heard of things like string height gauges
None of us knew any luthiers or techs, nearest guitar shop was easily half a day's travel away by car and it was a tiny little place, just buying strings was like a whole day's trip there and back, no internet we could order stuff or learn stuff from
Had to figure stuff out for ourselves and be inventive about using whatever tools we had available to us, even repurposing or making tools
So yeah, came up with methods of following the radius, setting things up, levelling frets etc that would be shall we say be considered unconventional now, probably make luthiers cringe or even lose sleep if I described how I managed to do my first ever fret level, still amazed to this day that it actually worked lol
went from 59/09 pickup to tremonti treble and it's a night and day difference