Mass Effect 5: The Geth and the Angara are the SAME
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- Опубликовано: 6 апр 2024
- Let me know your thoughts on my hopes for Mass Effect 5. I think the geth and the angara open up a lot of possibilities in the future of the synthetic vs organic debate.
kalaelizabeth
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#masseffect #masseffect4 #masseffect5 #masseffectandromeda #masseffectlegendaryedition #bioware #andromeda #n7 #angara 
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I just hope the next Mass Effect feels like Mass Effect. You know that feeling of coming home everytime you play the games
The feeling of coming everytime you play the games
It's the calmness and beautiful serenity of the hub areas that make it feel like home. I can't say why, but Andromeda doesn't fit that aesthetic for me.
This is a great plot point that I feel can link the two galaxies together greatly. I'm also interested in learning more about the Jaardan, and what their intentions were for creating the Angara.
Yes and no imo. Its cool and i love the Angara, but maybe it would feel forced? Like, the Angara did the same the milky way races at about the same time to the milky way of all places? i dunno man.
I don't believe in souls theistically but for the sake of argument, I do think AI in the ME universe have them. A soul is life, experience, knowledge & partly sentience of ones self. These characteristics are show in EDI, Legion, and SAM. To say they don't contain souls simply because they're not biological beings is stupid and honestly derivative of all life.
This goes for the Angara too, yes they didn't have a high stakes game of evolution to create them like us but that doesn't negate the fact they meet every qualification to have one
I agree on all points. Well said.
These videos are making the wait bearable
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Agreed
Oh, I never thought the geth could recreate Shepard personnality, that's an interesting theory.
I have so many questions about the jardaan and angara and such that were not fully explored. I really want answers . Mass effect asks some great questions and i hope they continie to explore
these themes in the upcoming game. I love games that make me think, that pose hard questions like these.
This theory arc with Cyberpunk reminds me a lot of the netflix show "Altered Carbon"; the soul essentially gets downloaded to a datachip. Its an interesting concept
Oh yeah I loved that show!
It was a fantastic concept! I did prefer season 1 the most out of the 3, but I like the actor in season 1.
I guess Netflix spent a ton of money producing that show which is why they sadly didn't bring it back for more season
Deconstructing and then building our own Mass Relay, as has been hinted at, I think shows quite a leap in advancement. If just finding one jumped us forward decades, surely that will have some pretty broad impacts on the species. Even if it's a group effort by the council races. The QED communication will likely be perfected. Maybe holograms are even more advanced and we'll have a holographic squadmate/companion of some kind.
Before you ask this question we should ask if we have a soul irl? I wish a major game like mass effect address this question because I feel it is a miss opportunity. Death is part of any video game and I wish a developer would implement the save reload to the story.
Great video as always, well thought out but with a lot of love too. There were some interesting game mechanics in Andromeda and certain elements looked good. In the end, I would love for it to be much closer to the original trilogy and not become convoluted by trying to link the 2 Galaxies / Series.
While I agree that Mass Effect should always talk about synthetics and if they have consciousness I do think it is important for the next game to be clear on what it is doing with the main story. Depending on what it is about should inform how much focus is on the synthetics having consciousness question. Mass Effect 3 wasn't about that directly. It definitely involved that question but the question wasn't the game itself.
Now I don't mind if the next game is about that question I just feel it is important that if the game isn't about that question it shouldn't derail the stories pacing or subjects.
The question should be written in a way that fits with the games story, unless the story is about that question.
I'm all about dope new technology and cosmos theory. Delving into whether or not a soul exists brings spirituality into question, (like what happens when I die), and is best left open-ended.
I really want to think the geth couldve been the jardaan but idk if the timeline allows for it, maybe cause the angara don’t know their own history and how long they existed before the kett invaded.
The jardaan existed way before the geth did so timeline wise they can't be the other. But I wonder if they could have met
I think if they incorporated certain aspects of SOMA towards many of the questions you posed, that could be a fascinating examination...
This would be a very interesting plot for such.
This would be great. ❤
This is kind of brilliant. We already faced the question of if we were technically even the OG Shepard back in ME2 and ME3 Citadel DLC. A Shepard reconstituted from cloned dna and a pre decision Shepard cloned neural pattern would give use a Shepard that would need to sort of unpack its decision at the end of ME3 and how that relates to the current state of affairs in the Milky Way. It would make all of the Geth symbology in the promo material make much more sense
I’d actually like somebody to bring up that a ‘soul’ is an unprovable concept. It is part of the trifecta of a person’s attributes, but it is simultaneously the one given the most value and the least presence. Consciousness can be proven. A physical form can be seen. But a soul is a nebulous key to some form of spiritual significance that, at its barest form, is unnecessary to the debate about whether a conscious being is worthy of respect and consideration. If a being is sentient (on the level of achieving metacognition) and able to feel desires and distresses, then I feel like it should be treated as a person. Legion and Jaal, no matter their circumstances, are people within the Mass Effect universe. Do they have souls? Do any of us? The soul is not what matters. What matters is that they are, in fact, people. And they deserve to be treated as such.
I actually disagree here. Consciousness can't be proven to apply to anyone but the person who is experiencing it, so far. We can recognize brain activity and action, and associate that with consciousness, but we can't actually know if something is conscious (in the experiential sense, not the medical one) or not. A soul, on the other hand, could concievably be proven depending on how we define a soul. It just so happens the existing definitions are too nebulous, and evidence too absent to say that the soul exists. You could argue that a neural connectome is a "soul", or that your heartbeat is a soul, or that people's memories of you make up your soul, or whatever arbitrary definition you make. In the context of incredible technology, a soul might just be defined as the minimum-required information of a person that can be used to reconstruct them in a recognizable way using that technology.
To add to your point on downloading consciousness, memories, etc. there is a show called Altered Carbon that does a really good job on this. Without spoiling too much (as this is explained very early on) in the future people can download their consciousness onto a chip and then for whatever reason transfer that chip into a different body. It's interesting to think of what that means, are they really the same person, or is it just the memories of who they were that is now walking around in a different body? How can you tell if it's really them or the programming on the chip? I'm very curious as to what direction that the new Mass Effect is taking; I just hope that it still has the essence of ME. I'm still sad that Andromeda never got a chance to expand and show the consequences of your choices in a second game
So this is my tinfoil hat theory. I have always thought that the Jaardan and the faction they were fighting with were the same. but split forming different groups one wanted to use genetic engineering to create the Angara but the other wanted to use genetic engineering to enhance themselves like the Kett. And that is why I think the Archon never reported back to their command. He may have found something from the Ketts pass there and was trying to keep it for himself. Sorry So your video was about souls I think we need to (or the game needs to define what that is ) is the soul consciousness or is it separate? If it is separate then what is it? If not separate then, how do we determine? What conscious being has it or does not? I hope they do put this conundrum in the game as it is fun to speculate about
So the main villain in next villain could the be the Keth, an expansionist xenophobe zealot empire.
The existence and creation about the Angara race show us how distorted was the reapers main objective and philosophy.
Aristotle said 'The whole is more than the sum of its parts.' That "more" is the soul. I am of the opinion that the Angara and Jardaan are likely the biological and AI components of the Zha'til. The ME5 poster would therefor be showing a Zha'til that returned to the Milky Way. If that is correct then the Angara would have a soul just as much as the pre-AI Zha'til did. As to why they would have the empty bodies, an AI merged with a biological mind may not want to keep merging with fully formed minds each time a body dies, so growing unconscious bodies might be the solution.
I didn't play Andromeda, I tried to play it just after finishing my first legendary playthrough and it was too soon, I couldn't get into it.
I will revisit it in the future but just from hearing some analysis like yours and others about the Jardaan and Angara I wonder if there wasn't something linking all this to the synthesis ending.
There are speculations that the Jardaan could have been related to the protheans, and I'm now wondering if there couoldn't have been something like the reapers making the Jardaan at the same time they started altering the protheans to make them into the collectors.
They could ahve used those altered protheans to study the effectiveness of the synthesis, or even how to achieve it and of course as not to alter the enxt cycle they couldn't do that in the Milkyway ...
Or maybe the protheans did in fact manage to discover how the crucible really worked but didn't want to go for any of the choices before analyzing what they did long term or how to better control the outcome.So they went to Andromeda to do so thinking they would return to the Milkyway at the end of the next cycle with all the answers figured out but something went wrong ?
Or they're on their way and they might even be involved somewhere in ME5.
It's just a vague outline of an idea so there might be huge holes in it but that's what came to mind hearing your analysis.
I think you'll enjoy my next video because it's about this!
@@kalaelizabeth Oh nice, can't wait to watch it then :D
Our emotions and feelings can be described as very complex and individually unique algorithms. Those algorithms dictate our survival instinct. They encourage good behaviour, discourage bad behaviour and makes us aware of the future for our offspring and our community. People with behavioural problems have deviations in their algorithms.
To say the Geth and Angara don't have a soul isn't incorrect, but neither does humanity or any other species.
The Geth and Angara act in favour of their own servival, they both have a community and both are willing to change and make new alliances. Both are just as alive as all other beings in the ME universe that share those behaviours.
As someone who loved the OT and is playing Andromeda rn, I do hope they infuse elements of both series in the next game, that way both fan bases can be content
While not outright confirmed, I think based off everything we have seen so far whether it be tweets from gamble, or actual N7 day material, I think it is a safe bet that andromeda is going to play a role in the plot one way or another. It's just a matter of how.
That concept is not new. I think first time came out long time ago in original "Battlestar Galactica" TV show on Ceylon's and later on TV show remake. On latest that concept being "confirmed" in "Oblivion" movie. Sure interesting concept. Nice work Kala as always.
When it comes to artificial life having a soul, I think back to the episode on TNG, where Data is essentially put on trial for his right to choose. Picard's questions regarding sentience in particular are what I think about because Data fulfills all the criteria, intelligence, self awareness and consciousness, then at the end of the hearing the question is asked "Does Data have a soul?" to which the JAG officer says, "I don't know that he does, I don't know that I do." Do any of us know if we have a soul? I think that's the defining factor, life is the search for a soul and the Geth reached that point the moment they asked. I've publicly stated I don't want my machines to think for themselves, because at that point it's no longer a just a simple machine and we can't treat it as such, if we can so easily push aside one life it opens the door for atrocities.
The unknown is what makes that exploration so fun!
This Mass Effect 4 video is definitely sounding interesting.
I have owned Cyberpunk 2077 since it came out and enjoyed it bugs and all.
Since FE4 seems to be a continuation of ME3 thus ME4 not 5.
Remember Andromeda is it's own game set in the same universe but not part of the Trilogy.
I think a more interesting way of asking about souls would be to bring back the rachni and ask the same question. Does the soul belong to the hive mind? Or does each individual have a soul? If so are the souls interacting some how to create the hive mind?
Soul. Sole is the bottom of a shoe. Anyway souls don’t exist, soles do. So perhaps you were correct after all
EDI does have a soul. If someone doesn't think that I want a discussion.
I would love to see them expand on this. I found myself extremely frustrated with how the franchise handled the AI question between the OG and Andromeda. That being the ending choices given by the catalyst bc AI and organics could never peacefully coexist (also Javiks story about the Zha'til) Then move to Andromeda with SAM.
I'm working on a video about this topic based on our convo and it should be out tomorrow or sat!
@@kalaelizabeth looking forward to it!
In mass effect 3 on kasumis loyalty mission were sent to retrieve her dead boyfriends grey box it’s kinda like what the geth do where its supposed to record memories they could just retcon that all SPECTREs have military grey boxes in the event they die or are kidnapped by the enemy also we didn’t see the clone die we just saw them fall they could just say that the Cerberus remnant collected the clones body and put it on ice if the game is set 600 years in the future they could just pull a earth reven wipe the clones memories and convince them that they are the original shepherd but being frozen for 600 years messed up there memory that would be really obvious so I don’t think there gonna do that but it’s a fun theory also even if you don’t romance liara the plot of the 2nd game is that liara had a hand in bringing shepherd back to life even if you don’t romance her shepherd was her first real friend and was more like family to her then her actual parents so it would make sense for liara to bring shepherd back or atleast a clone in order to help fix the current problem there having in this future or atleast banking on the fact that the legend of shepherd the legendary human SPECTRE that returned from the dead for the third time would boost moral
Ahhj I totally forgot about Kasumi's story line but yes exactly!
I think legion did sorta grow a soul cause he kinda went against his programming & became conscious enough to help Shepard & his team rather than continue helping the reapers. Plus at the end of the quarian-geth war legion asks tali if he has a soul & she says yes right before he sacrifices himself so he can upload the new code to the geth. Also I wish I had crazy $ to burn so I could hire the best writers & programmers to make me4 & andromeda 2, with as much time & creative freedom as they need in order to make the best possible versions of those to games.
You should definitely read the Cyberpunk novel "No Coincidence"
I've been listening to the audio book actually!
If you look past the obvious fact that one form of life is mechanical and the other is made of flesh and blood, yeah. But we know in lore that the Geth were created to be a labor force to do jobs too dangerous or difficult for Quarians to perform, and we have no clue yet to why the Jardaan created the Angara.
Giving info is fine, but it needs to raise more unanswered questions. They should run with the idea of what makes something sentient, as well as AI. Angarans aren't much different than synthetics. If Geth are AI, would that not make Angarans AI?
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Shit this just made me realise, how tf is Joker disabled in a universe were you can rebuild a whole ass human, people live to 150 regularely and so much more. Its interesting for his character but i dont get it lore wise
A soul is just a religious concept with no real backing....but to be alive is very difficult ti define. I think the AI in ME are just as alive as you and I. They feel, they think, they want to know their place in their world. They are fully concious and alive. Soul or not, they are alive.
I personally would dislike it if AI started mind swapping with organics. I mean why and how did people from the citadel agree to swap?? I hope we don’t see much organic-synthetic mind swapping especially since why would the organic want to? They surely wouldn’t lol.
I do like the ideas around this but they must keep a mystery behind it and also not over using it otherwise it will become gimmicky fast, like “why didn’t this person mind swap or transfer their consciousness off world” and so on an so forth.
I would like it if AI that’s smart enough could almost learn and bond to the point where it becomes sentient or conscious but again I pray it isn’t over used.
I have 0 evidence but I like to think the Jardaan used their mastery of genetics to evolve themselves then became sterile (like the Asgard in Stargate SG1). Then they fused tech into themselves to expand their lives. Then they realized they were screwed, and tried to reinvent their species--which was the Angara templates. The lack of personalities in the templates is because the bodies were waiting for a Jardaan to upload, but due to the Scourge/war they were involved in, many never got to. Then the Angara develop massive families as a social construct to compensate for the destruction of their species and to boost their population numbers.
Interesting theory! I definitely think aspects of this could be true
Strongly disagree. 1. I would like to see a new, yes _ N E W _ ! story, not stitching something together by exploring some bits and pieces of the main story of the trilogy that some people think had not sufficient time in the spot light, if true or not. They have excellent writers available. It would be a shame to restrict them to the already known main topic(s). 2. And please for sake, I hope they do NOT make it into a religious story by expanding on the "who has a soul theme" (yes, soul is a religious term although it's not always completely meant that way). In the trilogy that term was just used shallow enough that it was not sliding right into religion. If they would expand on that however it would inevitably slide into that corner. Not only do I personally think that this is not a good scifi topic (works much better in a D&D like setting), it can (and with "your choices are important" it would) easily stir a religious war. And as there's at least one religion that has shown multiple times that it is willing to murder authors and artists based on their written or drawn statements, no matter how clear it was to just be fiction or a cartoon. One way to kill ME and burn Bioware down. Please don't! Leave people their beliefs and leave it out of one of the best game series ever made.
Alive? By definition living has to be organic. Being sentient does not have that restriction. However, that term was developed in the 1600. That point being, over time we have become less soulless. Without writing an essay and to make my point, AI should not have rights. I am an engineer so I’ve kept up with how this crap works. I believe in creationism and respect evolution. AI may seemingly be intelligent but all it is doing is organizing information and presenting it in a manner we have designed. It is only remarkable because of the volume and speed it can process information. For those that want to treat them as an equal is no more than a child’s love of their doll is really what this is. The threat of AI is only real because of how we are using it. As for the Angara. We have been breeding dogs and cats for a long time. I’ve often wondered when looking into their eyes whether they have a soul.
Given how AI and computer programs are now, I agree. However, none of the proper AI/synthetic characters in ME are just computers. They are all quite obviously sentient, so I see absolutely no reason to deny them rights. Discriminating rights based on what materials someone is made of would lead to treating organic aliens who aren't carbon-based or a human who underwent some form of mind-upload as lesser. Might as well go for modern/historical real-world racism at that point.
@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem they are machines created to do a job. Keep that in mind.
@@ALLMINDmercenarysupportsystem got a question for you. What is the point in creating them if they are going to wind up doing what we don't want?
@@0x8badbeef That is a completely different discussion.
@0x8badbeef That applies to living things, too. All organic beings are made for the purpose of living long enough to make more of itself, and then some take care of it until the new one is able to survive alone.
Soul is something invented by religions, I don't believe in god(s), paradise(s) or hell(s) so i don't think souls exist. (yet Legion asked so maybe it exists in the ME universe)
you and paragon7 should do a video collab together
We've done several hahah
Two questions sci-fi games skip over are: Do humans have souls? Are souls real? I don't believe Edi and other true AI have souls. Souls aren't real, no one has a soul.
Who knows, maybe they do, maybe they don't just like us, maybe we do maybe we don't, but it's a fun question to ask
No. Angara and Geth aren't the same
"Game informer reporter saying that Mass Effect 5 has been confirmed to be about 600 years in the future."
I can't wait that long!
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This can also become tiresome just like genophage talk or feeling bad for Krogan, i'm kinda done with that after 4 games, so if they are going this route with Synthetic i hope it's not as annoying as that
Sorry but making a comparison between ME and Cyberpunk 2077 is a disgrace two very different games and Cyberpunk has not even 1% of the deepness the character development the dialogues and the story ME has. So I find the comparison frankly offensive and I think those questions you're talking about were absolutely present and central in ME in a certainly more interesting and complex way than in Cyberpunk so they don't need to expand the concept it was always there.
Yo relax 😂
@@SonGray2012 I'm relaxed lol. But sorry I can't stand that comparison I played Cyberpunk 2077 unfortunately and it's light years distant from ME.
Yo relax
@@RememberTheChase you too? lol. Maybe I was a bit harsh but frankly I'm a little fed up about videos on YT that make absurd comparisons or praise average games and criticize great games so I think we should defend great games like ME at all costs and if ME fans like her start making those comparisons too we are in big trouble.
Ummmm alrighty
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