Nobody talks enough about King's Dilemma... I think it's plain amazing. The voting system might seem light at first, but it's actually very solid and gives a lot of room for debating and trying to convince others (even heavily roleplaying it is possible). It makes for really lively guests around the table. The story is stellar (best one in the genre, hands down), the legacy aspect is excellent (it's subtle how you're constantly trying to balance short time victory and long time consequences). I'm glad you gave it some recognition!
Im enjoying it but not sure I agree with the story point. It’s all over the place and you have a ton of side stories that are hard to keep track of 3specially as it constantly references to locations and people you don’t recall.
We are on 4th or 5th play and it's just alright for me. The story is cool, but as Broken Meeple mentioned, it can definitely feel scattered. Plus, you are definitely trying to figure out what to do for the first 2-3 games which makes it a bit choppy. I agree the best part is weighing the short term/long term things but so far the story hasn't grabbed me enough to overcome the 'meh'-ness of the game itself
My group's had 9-10 games of it and it's very much a matter of, "You put in what you get out." Two of my four players are very much not roleplayers and that's compounded upon by what we consider to be nearly unpronounceable names of places and people. It just makes investment that much harder. The other two enjoy it greatly but there's been multiple occasions where halfway through reading a story card, we hear a sigh followed by, "Just tell me what's going up and what's going down." Not to mention the use of tons and tons of double negatives when it comes to voting on a ban. It's caused a great deal of confusion even for our roleplayers.
Great list Tom, short and sweet, and I loved the time stamps so we could jump through it a bit quicker. We LOVE if someone ever added those to the top 100 lists you do. Lot of games to check out after watching this. Pandemic Legacy being number one, but I've known that for a while! Thanks again.
@@HeroOfTheWeb If you actually finished it and unlocked everything, you're pretty likely to have gotten more from your copy then any other game you'll play.
We just finished Betrayal Legacy and I was surprised it was so low on your list! But then again I was a fan of the original's weird spoopy presentation and the hints at lore. It was our first Legacy game! Now looking at what to do for our second and looks like Pandemic 1 is a good choice! I think we'll save 0 for last.
Its the first time I saw a video separated by chapters. Just fantastic, good work. look forward to play some of the pandemic legacy's games in the series.
I've played Pandemic Legacy Seasons 1 and 2 as well as Clank Legacy. One thing that was frustrating about the Pandemic Legacy games was that as careful as my wife and I tried to be we always seemed to mess up one of the new rules that came along as the game progressed. We didn't seem to have that same problem with Clank Legacy. I'm not sure if it was because the changes to the rules/gameplay weren't as numerous or complex or that they just seemed more intuitive.
In Clank, my wife and I missed how the small secret tokens worked. We saw they weren’t put on the map, so we didn’t use them and kept waiting for the instructions to bring them out. Went thru half the game without using them.
My playgroup didn't have any issues with Pandemic Legacy rulings nor Clank rulings. We have played both the basic Pandemics and Clanks for a while before we began the legacy versions, so new rules weren't too tough to incorporate. If you haven't yet, though, you should definitely pick up Pandemic Season 0. Rules are confusing or not, it's worth the buy.
The worst part of the Pandemics was being able to REMEMBER rules changes. Sometimes we'd go 6 weeks between games and it's not all that easy to recall new rules when you have so much life happening after learning them. For Season 2, I actually took notes at the end of a month so we could recap. It helped, but it also made the game feel a little like homework sometimes. That said, Season 2's rules were a breeze compared to Season 1's, which we call Pandemic: Now with More Rules! I love Pandemic but I NEVER once said, "Man, I wish this game had more rules!"
@@kevinbhieey9188 That's very fair, actually. My playgroup was able to run Pandemic one or two sessions every wednesday. So the rules were still pretty recent in our mind. I can imagine that larger gaps between sessions would result in losing some of the non-core rules.
You talking about the production quality of Charterstone reminded me about its scratch-offs. The scratching off was a dream. I had no idea that this was a thing that could exist, but it was so much better than the scratch-off material in season 1 and season 2 that it may be my defining memory of the game. Which is probably unfair, because I like game enough that (given the time since my play) that I would play it through again, but that really stands out (along with that mechanism in one game that I won't spoil).
I don't remember the scratch offs in charterstone that much, but I DO remember the one game mechanism you're talking about. When we opened that box we were so excited about it. Such a fun idea.
My group loved going through the Charterstone campaign and we are really enjoying playing one-off games with our 'finished' setup. We are about halfway though Clank! Legacy now and loving that too.
3/4ths through for Pandemic Season 0 with my Dad, who is not a gamer. It's been amazing. already the Best board game experience i've ever had. surprises galore and each game has been a nail biter to the finish. Haven't played the other Pandemic seasons and am worried that we've been spoiled.
In what world is Gloomhaven not a legacy game? I've never heard anyone (reviewer or otherwise) not consider it one when talking about them. You write on the board, put stickers on both the board and cards, break seals, open secret boxes and envelopes, and rip up cards. I'm genuinely not sure how it could be more of a legacy game if it tried.
Yeah, you definitely can't easily reset it unless you just set aside cards, use a reusable sticker pack, and... Nope, you'd still have to buy new stickers to track donations. Tom is way off on this
@@rovingmauler7410 perhaps it's a game type thing people usually associate dungeon crawlers as campaign games. What do you think makes Gloomhaven more of a legacy game than a campaign game? Compared to traditional dungeon crawler, I feel like it meets more of that. You go from quest to quest around a map, defeating bad guys and gaining experience. No one calls a CRPG a 'Legacy Game'.
Great vid, as always - loving the advanced editing - markes, etc. Watched today as bought "Zombie Kidz" for my girls last year and loved the legacy aspect. Now looking for the "next hit" as I'm currently playing original "Clank" and was thinking of getting this for my girls, the fact that "Clank Legacy" had come in so high, i think I've found my next family legacy game! Cheers Tom et al! 👍😁
Haven't started this video yet but it will probably result in buying at least one more board game XD P.s. I always liked board games and got myself few years back. Then I discovered this channel and bought a lot. Now I know what a worker placement and a legacy game is XD Binging your top 10s is so entertaining and educational.
I felt almost personally offended when you said that Gloomhaven isn't a legacy game. But also made me interested in keep watching to see what "legacy" really is
Risk Legacy is a great and after a few rounds with some permanent changes it becomes FAR superior than regular risk (that doesn't take forever to play either).
Tom talking about Betrayal at house on the hill echoes a lot of my grievances with that game. English isn't the first language here, and I am usually the one who ends up reading and translating the rules (even though all my friends and family is proficient in English, a lot of technical details and rules tend to go over most peoples head or they have a hard time grasping it). That means when ever there is a haunt, no matter if I'm the one doing the haunting or the one being haunted, I usually end up spoiling myself by having to clarify rules. And the dice rolling is sometimes so insanely "lucky", we've actually gone through the entire house and still not had a haunt because of the improbably lucky dice throws (needing all 8 dice to be a hit and still managing). Other times we fail right away and no one has been able to pick up a single weapon or a card... I really want the game to be good, it is perfect for my type of game group, but it simply has those niggling issues that make me hesitant to pull it out...
I've played Pandemic Legacy seasons 1 and 2, Charterstone, and am halfway through Clank Legacy. I agree with Tom's order. I really did not like Charterstone. It just felt like there was so much weight to your decisions but you have no way of knowing what was a good or bad decision. I made, what ended up to be, mostly bad decisions and basically had no chance after the 4th game and then had to play through 8 more, and its story was weak. Also some factions are stronger than others, not very well balanced which is a complaint I've heard from other people about certain Stonemier games. Can't wait to play Pandemic season 0.
Same happened to us, by the end of the game we didn't even unlock all mechanics from the game which is stupid, but more importantly since it's not equal on what each player unlocks it's based on pure luck, we even had players just sink even lower trying to desperately catch up by unlocking things similar to what other players got.
In our group we have played Betrayal Legacy, Pandemic Legacy I and II, and Seafall (and Gloomhaven), and while Seafall has obvious shortcomigs, it gave us our favorite and our most memorable legacy game experience. We have talked to other gaming groups who liked it less, and a challenge is that while it is a competitive game, you do to some degree need to cooperate and at least share some information; if you don't, the game will slow down significantly. We didn't have a problem with that; we found a good balance between competition and cooperation, and for all the players (we were 5) it is the best and most legendary legacy game experience; for us the big reveal in Seafall (when an item that we really did not expect came into play) was far more impressive and had a lot more impact than the September event in Pandemic Legacy I.
If I'm understanding correctly, you shouldn't buy a legacy game used? (Because pieces get permantly changed). Asking because I've seen a couple of these used at stores before and was considering them.
I've only played 2 Legacy games, and we quit halfway though them both. Seafall is one of them, and the biggest reason we didn't finish it wasn't because the game was bad, but we played with 5 players, 1 of them has more or less quit now and another one doesn't play that much, and when he does he wants to play more interesting (non-legacy) games.
Surprised to see I’ve played through most of these! I guess I have a type and didn’t even realize it. My group and I had to stop playing risk legacy. We loved going through it, but it also led to certain factions getting over powered and therefore never finished it. Clank, Kings dilemma or Aeons end may have to be next on my list!
I know Zombie Kidz got slightly shafted here due to it being a kids game, but if you have children age 6-12 you owe it to yourself to get this game. Personally I was weary of the theme (and wasn't nuts about the title, the rulebook, or even that it's a legacy game to be honest) but once I got this it was an absolute hit which we literally had to force ourselves to play less as to not exhaust it too quickly.
Did you play only Zombie Kidz Evolution, or did you also play the original Zombie Kidz? How do they compare? Is the original worth it, does it give a good preview of the Evolution game?
@@ghyslainabel Don't know about the original, but would definitely suggest Evolution over that. The Legacy aspect is implemented perfectly, it's not really a gimmick but a way to gradually build up complexity and motivate playing again and again through various means. I don't think a non-Legacy variant would work nearly as well.
Ghyslain Abel I think so. The base version is very simple and easy to teach and then it develops as you open up envelopes and the rule book encourages you to adjust the legacy parts in accordance to the level of the children you play with. So you can scale back if it gets too complicated.
Great list! Pandemic season 1 has my top spot right now, I really disliked many parts of part 2 although it's the most interesting idea and it's the one I found myself making strategies in my head between sessions the most. Extremely engaging but felt so stressful and dare I say luck based on which path you end up taking in game and what you explore first which can make the game too challenging or too easy, the final mission also felt so anticlimatic and disappointing. And then there's season 0 which I thought I would enjoy the most but the epidemic mechanic kept giving 3-5 outbreaks in cities with 0 surveillance which was too often for comfort and the "base infiltration minigames" made me stop playing all together somewhere around october I think. I really like the theme and idea but as a player I need slightly more control over my success cause card draw more than in earlier seasons can shoot you in the foot in a big way. Just my opinions, so even though season 1 is pretty basic it always felt balanced to me, things can always go bad quick since it's pandemic but the out of your control chaos scenarios were rare enough that I could laugh it up, not so much with the other seasons after a while.
There was a discussion on Facebook about the Pandemic Seasons games. My observation was "I think part of the reason people don't like S2 is that with S1 you could play it like normal Pandemic and it wouldn't hurt you as badly. Yeah, there are some things you have to avoid or do differently, but ultimately it is Pandemic. S2 if you played it like Pandemic you will not have fun. Oh in the first couple months it wouldn't matter as much, but as you get further along then you will start to get hurt more and more." When my wife and I played we weren't really paying attention to the legacy deck and sometime in October or November we protected some cities while we let some other cities that we didn't care too much about get in a bad place. By the time December rolled by we realized that we couldn't win the game with our current layout. So we had to throw the first game in December to help clean stuff up in order to try to win the game. So late December was our last hurrah. We did stuff with the deck to help us out. With it only being the last shot it made it for a tense game, but in the end we prevailed. And it lead to an epic story. My character was the savior of the day. S1 I played a couple times and it was still fun. S2 I've only played once but, after we stopped playing it like it was a normal game of Pandemic, we started to have fun in it and by the end it was a great time. All in all I'd probably put S1 up above S2. I can't wait to try S0.
Hello, being new to board gaming, I never played the pandemic legacy games as they came out. This means that when I come to play them, I have all 3 available to me from the beginning. Do you recommend starting with season 0 as chronologically it comes first, or to start with season 1 because you’re supposed to or it introduces mechanics to you better or something?
My wife bought me clank legacy, the only boardgame she likes playing and we are through scenario 6. It is just the best game of all time. Serious, fun, entertaining, changing a lot, we are addicted. We've been playing clank for a year and a half and this legacy version is just the holy grail. 10/10.
One reason there are fewer legacy games is that they are a hard sell for casual gamers. In general, you pay the same price as a standard game, but you need to play through the entire "campaign" fairly quickly, and when you're done you can never play the game again. Compare that to Pandemic, which can sit on your shelf for a decade, being pulled down once every few months for game night.
Yeah, even for people that play a ton that can be a big issue. I kind of like it though, there are soooo many games out there I think I would be okay with them being "finished"
Please tell me how I get back the cards I ripped apart in Gloomhaven so I can reset it? And how do I get a new map sheet? It's the bloody DEFINITION of a legacy game. Even Pandemic Legacy is less of a legacy game.
Risk remains my top Legacy experience, in large part because of the novelty, and because of the group we played with. I also think I just prefer competitive Legacy games over co-op. And Pandemic is lower for me, too, because I was so tired of its base gameplay before starting Season 1 that it colored the experience in a negative way for me.
Clank Legacy was great, but it does have a tough mechanic where if you get a great offer on your turn randomly you might get an awesome card and just win outright. Still great game!
I am kinda shocked you don't consider gloomhaven a legacy game. It has envelopes, it has boxes you need to do stuff to open, it has stickers...Hell, the stickers on the abilities mean you really can't reset it easily even if the map stickers can just be ignored or whatever. I can't think of a single way it isn't a legacy game...
Completely agree with Clank! Own or played all or part of all of these besides My City. I never want to see Betrayal again. Those haunt rules are horrendous. Really excited to get farther in King's Dilemma.
Love the list and production of this video. I can't get over your opinion that Gloomhaven is not a legacy game. By the games design you actually physically can not reset the box to square one. Road and City cards are intended to be destroyed when prompted, choosing to make a discard pile and not destroying them is a personal choice. Also with the mercenary unlocks, you can't ever do that again. If you keep spoiler free like I have and the community is dedicated to keeping a respect towards, once you open a mercenary class you can never have that experience again. Sure you can buy new map stickers and remove the old ones, you can do that with a handful on this list. Gloomhaven is a legacy game and it's number one on my personal list for the reasons above.
@@MostlyFaded420 I'm not sure what your point is. Seems to make no sense. The post says "it's number one on my personal list for the reasons above" but didn't give any reasons regarding why the game would be number one on their list. I was just asking about what those reasons were.
How is Gloomhaven not a legacy game?, first you cannot reset Gloomhaven on it's own, you would have to buy the removable stickers made by another company! Then you add new cards, others once used are removed forever, open envelopes, open secret boxes, and progress through a campaign ALL the elements of legacy games lol.
I don't really agree with him that it's not a Legacy game, but it doesn't have that progression of rules, altering the way the game is fundamentally played that most Legacy games have. It has the same kinds of surprises that most campaign driven games have. The only reason it is a legacy game is the deliberate design to not allow you to easily reset it. The progression and flow doesn't feel like 99% of legacy games, but rather like most RPG campaign games. Not really a dig at the game, just trying to imagine the rationale.
i enjoyed Pandemic Legacy Season 2 so much more than Season 1. There isnt much you can talk about without spoilers but Season 1 (and the base game) is way to determistic and never felt really risky for the pieces you play. Season 2 brings this little more risk and therefore its so much more intense :)
Betrayal legacy is our favorite, though we mid game because of covid. I think your first good legacy experience tends to get a boost due to novilty, like Tom's risk legacy.
Thanks Tom - I love these lists. I’m not a fan of charterstone although I think playing solo was the main reason - the automa didn’t seem to bring anything and I misread a vital rule so I have the reset pack to give it another whirl. I’m loving PLS1 and Clank and now I want Rise of Queensdale .... wonder if my other half will notice it on the credit card bill???
@@VaoleThe game is permanently changed as you play it. You change and destroy parts of the game as you play. It is certainly a campaign game, but it is a campaign legacy game.
I think my problem with Seafall was its length, by game 9-10 we had unlocked most of the components but the game sugested you play a full 20 something games. It became a treadmill of repeating game play with too little story or mechanics to anchor it.
For a terrible moment I thought Werewolf Legacy was going to be number 1. The only Legacy game I've had to abandon, which was a shame, because I felt the families and emergent horror stories through the generations was done so much better in Betrayal.
I liked PandeLeg2 much more than PandeLeg1. I like story, but gameplay is far more important. PandeLeg1 mostly seemed to start out as base Pandemic and slowly added in elements from the 3 expansions. So I've always been under the impression that most folks who went nuts for PL1 were unfamiliar with the expansions. PL2 was more new & fresh without rehashing. While on the whole i prefer PL1's story, i much prefer PL2's fall (october?) surprise over PL1's september. Note: If you haven't played, PL2's fall surprise won't make sense unless you play PL1 first
12:41 Not if you listen to Rahdo... He believes that you can still play them - as a regular Pandemic game - with your own personalized map - after you finish with it - and it will remind you of your playthrough of the Legacy game.
@@rasmusansin3273 I'm still hoping to get to it eventually, but even if I do, I will have spent $100 on something I could have grabbed for $20 if I'd waited.
I'm new to board games in general here. Just looking for something to start with. Clank, Dungeon run, wingspan and betrayal at house on the hill. All sound interesting specially the P&P type.
Legacy games are some of the best experiences you can have with a board game, but you need a dedicated group that will meet for 10-20 games, depending on the game.
Could you have given a definition for a legacy game at the start, so that people who have never heard the term won't assume you're talking about something else?
The game coming back to its original in an easy way or not should is not a reason to define a game as legacy as it has nothing to do with the mechanics game itself, only with how we handle the game. A legacy game is one that provides a unique experience to each campaign, where the campaign itself changes through plays.
Clank Legacy is really tempting to me but I just can't bring myself to buy a board game based on an RPG campaign that I don't know anything about or care to watch
I didn’t know anything about it either and still loved it. As long as you are familiar with generic D&D themes you should be ok. The idea is “imagine if you were a d&d character but had to deal with corporate bureaucracy”. I’m sure AI fans get something when certain characters show up but it is more akin to a guest star in a tv episode.
I agree with most of Tom’s assessments of each legacy game, however Our family found Machi Koro legacy very disappointing .We discovered that the game became somewhat broken after the first 3 games. Whoever ended up getting the most furniture factories always won. You might conclude that everyone has an equal chance of getting this cards, but if you are the first player and rolled luckily enough and were able to have another turn straight away due to a particular factory you owned [ can’t remember the name of the card now] you usually picked another furniture factory and game over. I tried different strategies, but the person who got the most furniture factories was always the runaway winner. I’ll keep some of the components of the legacy game, but I think I’ll stick to the original game with one or two expansions.
I’ve only played Pandemic Season 1 (amazing experience, but now I’ve played enough pandemic), and Charterstone (biggest disappointment). I’m about to play Clank! legacy (keep hearing amazing things). I generally am liking campaign games better.
They dominate the mindshare though. Way beyond what they should. That's the point... Every one of those 15 Legacy games probably got 5 times the amount of "enthusiast" attention that the average of the others did. So to the question of "are there too many legacy game?" the answer is "No, but you guys sure make it seem like there are."
Definitely agree that Clank Legacy was fantastic. Charterstone was good, but post campaign games are incredibly dull. We had a great time with Betrayal Legacy, but all our players were already well versed in the original game (wouldn't recommend for new players). Seafall is... well... it just is I guess.
The destruction part feels like a business decision to trash resell value when they could have done it differently not to be "permanent". Parents might notice it is the same story with school activity books, where are the manuals we used to cover in paper not to damage them? They're much less available because business can't sell what people can resell. That said I disagree with BGG's definition of "Legacy". All legacy mechanics could be easily reset. Only thing that might not be as easy is sealed envelops or boxes, but you could say same if you've read the next chapter of a campaign game before playing the previous one. I think what Legacy should be about is rule/world change, not because you can or can't reset it. We're not going on "It's a war game, you should die if you lose", it's a game.
Clank was good but nothing in the game made feel that excited in the story. I also wonder if games which have sensible and repeatable games at the end inherently can’t be as interesting as once and done games. We also played clank in a funny way - we had to play with a slight nod to trying to do the legacy stuff as much as playing the game to win. I think it’s a slight flaw that is also in Pandemic Legacy 2 - where the legacy stuff is uncoupled from winning a game.
Please do a top whatever # list of coop campaign/legacy type of games. Games that me and my group will play continuously. Please Mr. KING Vasel. Me and my group are only played a few of these in the last year and and will watch every video you put out on the subject.
@@Trevin_Taylor I am not sure about what I am asking is confusing you. Clank Legacy is not coop, Campaign is not legacy. I want a list with Tainted Grail and Pandemic Season 1, but no Clank legacy.
![GEEK TIMË [OFFICIAL AUDIO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ry-6RvkH880/mqdefault.jpg)
i absolutely love that you added chapter markers for the different numbers in the description. ALWAYS do this for lists
I more or less only watch videos with chapters these days when it comes to lists and tutorials.
Nobody talks enough about King's Dilemma... I think it's plain amazing. The voting system might seem light at first, but it's actually very solid and gives a lot of room for debating and trying to convince others (even heavily roleplaying it is possible). It makes for really lively guests around the table. The story is stellar (best one in the genre, hands down), the legacy aspect is excellent (it's subtle how you're constantly trying to balance short time victory and long time consequences). I'm glad you gave it some recognition!
This is the one I'm really waiting for. Amazon says it will be available Dec 31st and I can't wait.
Im enjoying it but not sure I agree with the story point. It’s all over the place and you have a ton of side stories that are hard to keep track of 3specially as it constantly references to locations and people you don’t recall.
We are on 4th or 5th play and it's just alright for me. The story is cool, but as Broken Meeple mentioned, it can definitely feel scattered. Plus, you are definitely trying to figure out what to do for the first 2-3 games which makes it a bit choppy. I agree the best part is weighing the short term/long term things but so far the story hasn't grabbed me enough to overcome the 'meh'-ness of the game itself
My group's had 9-10 games of it and it's very much a matter of, "You put in what you get out." Two of my four players are very much not roleplayers and that's compounded upon by what we consider to be nearly unpronounceable names of places and people. It just makes investment that much harder. The other two enjoy it greatly but there's been multiple occasions where halfway through reading a story card, we hear a sigh followed by, "Just tell me what's going up and what's going down." Not to mention the use of tons and tons of double negatives when it comes to voting on a ban. It's caused a great deal of confusion even for our roleplayers.
@@wayner396 sorry to break it to ya but I just checked and Amazon said February 2021. . . :-(
Since campaign games were excluded, would that make a good top 10 or separate ranking video?
YES! I want to see that list too!
Campaign games are easily my favorite games so I'd love to see that list too
This!
The problem is that they take a looong time, I find it unlikely that a lot of people have played through a whole lot of them
So Gloomhaven can end up 1st again?
Great list Tom, short and sweet, and I loved the time stamps so we could jump through it a bit quicker. We LOVE if someone ever added those to the top 100 lists you do. Lot of games to check out after watching this. Pandemic Legacy being number one, but I've known that for a while! Thanks again.
"Gloomhaven can be reset"
*looks at my copy covered in stickers, marks, and torn up cards"
Suuuuuuuure
You actually tear up the cards? You don’t just put it into a discard pile?
@@TNTITAN quoting isaac: Rip them up!
@@marcelcwertetschka-mattasi5467 "buy a new copy when you destroy your original game" - Isaac
@@HeroOfTheWeb If you actually finished it and unlocked everything, you're pretty likely to have gotten more from your copy then any other game you'll play.
Tom, totally understand separating Campaign games from Legacy. Can we expect a Campaign games list in the near future?
+1 to this...i'd love to see a top 10 campaign games with legacy style elements list
We just finished Betrayal Legacy and I was surprised it was so low on your list! But then again I was a fan of the original's weird spoopy presentation and the hints at lore.
It was our first Legacy game! Now looking at what to do for our second and looks like Pandemic 1 is a good choice! I think we'll save 0 for last.
Its the first time I saw a video separated by chapters. Just fantastic, good work. look forward to play some of the pandemic legacy's games in the series.
I've played Pandemic Legacy Seasons 1 and 2 as well as Clank Legacy. One thing that was frustrating about the Pandemic Legacy games was that as careful as my wife and I tried to be we always seemed to mess up one of the new rules that came along as the game progressed. We didn't seem to have that same problem with Clank Legacy. I'm not sure if it was because the changes to the rules/gameplay weren't as numerous or complex or that they just seemed more intuitive.
In Clank, my wife and I missed how the small secret tokens worked. We saw they weren’t put on the map, so we didn’t use them and kept waiting for the instructions to bring them out. Went thru half the game without using them.
My playgroup didn't have any issues with Pandemic Legacy rulings nor Clank rulings. We have played both the basic Pandemics and Clanks for a while before we began the legacy versions, so new rules weren't too tough to incorporate. If you haven't yet, though, you should definitely pick up Pandemic Season 0. Rules are confusing or not, it's worth the buy.
The worst part of the Pandemics was being able to REMEMBER rules changes. Sometimes we'd go 6 weeks between games and it's not all that easy to recall new rules when you have so much life happening after learning them. For Season 2, I actually took notes at the end of a month so we could recap. It helped, but it also made the game feel a little like homework sometimes. That said, Season 2's rules were a breeze compared to Season 1's, which we call Pandemic: Now with More Rules! I love Pandemic but I NEVER once said, "Man, I wish this game had more rules!"
@@kevinbhieey9188 That's very fair, actually. My playgroup was able to run Pandemic one or two sessions every wednesday. So the rules were still pretty recent in our mind. I can imagine that larger gaps between sessions would result in losing some of the non-core rules.
You talking about the production quality of Charterstone reminded me about its scratch-offs. The scratching off was a dream. I had no idea that this was a thing that could exist, but it was so much better than the scratch-off material in season 1 and season 2 that it may be my defining memory of the game. Which is probably unfair, because I like game enough that (given the time since my play) that I would play it through again, but that really stands out (along with that mechanism in one game that I won't spoil).
I don't remember the scratch offs in charterstone that much, but I DO remember the one game mechanism you're talking about. When we opened that box we were so excited about it. Such a fun idea.
I am currently playing Clank Legacy with my group. It is a lot of fun so far, glad to see it getting some love from Tom!
My group loved going through the Charterstone campaign and we are really enjoying playing one-off games with our 'finished' setup. We are about halfway though Clank! Legacy now and loving that too.
3/4ths through for Pandemic Season 0 with my Dad, who is not a gamer. It's been amazing. already the Best board game experience i've ever had. surprises galore and each game has been a nail biter to the finish. Haven't played the other Pandemic seasons and am worried that we've been spoiled.
In what world is Gloomhaven not a legacy game? I've never heard anyone (reviewer or otherwise) not consider it one when talking about them. You write on the board, put stickers on both the board and cards, break seals, open secret boxes and envelopes, and rip up cards. I'm genuinely not sure how it could be more of a legacy game if it tried.
Yeah, you definitely can't easily reset it unless you just set aside cards, use a reusable sticker pack, and... Nope, you'd still have to buy new stickers to track donations. Tom is way off on this
No one ever said Tom was a smart man.
Just catching up in this video. I can actually see how Gloomhaven isn't a legacy game.
It's a campaign game with a few legacy elements.
@@chauveet But pretty much every legacy game is a campaign. So what's the difference?
@@rovingmauler7410 perhaps it's a game type thing people usually associate dungeon crawlers as campaign games.
What do you think makes Gloomhaven more of a legacy game than a campaign game? Compared to traditional dungeon crawler, I feel like it meets more of that. You go from quest to quest around a map, defeating bad guys and gaining experience.
No one calls a CRPG a 'Legacy Game'.
Great vid, as always - loving the advanced editing - markes, etc.
Watched today as bought "Zombie Kidz" for my girls last year and loved the legacy aspect. Now looking for the "next hit" as I'm currently playing original "Clank" and was thinking of getting this for my girls, the fact that "Clank Legacy" had come in so high, i think I've found my next family legacy game! Cheers Tom et al! 👍😁
Zombie Teenz Evolution is also meant to be coming very soon.
I’m playing through pandemic season 0 now with friends and it’s crazy, super strategic, super fun, and we’re only just got to month 4
Haven't started this video yet but it will probably result in buying at least one more board game XD
P.s. I always liked board games and got myself few years back. Then I discovered this channel and bought a lot. Now I know what a worker placement and a legacy game is XD Binging your top 10s is so entertaining and educational.
We just finished Zombie Kidz. Lots of fun!
I felt almost personally offended when you said that Gloomhaven isn't a legacy game. But also made me interested in keep watching to see what "legacy" really is
It's a legacy game.
Risk Legacy is a great and after a few rounds with some permanent changes it becomes FAR superior than regular risk (that doesn't take forever to play either).
And it's still playable after the 15 games!
Thank you for the great round up and lack of spoilers!!
Tom talking about Betrayal at house on the hill echoes a lot of my grievances with that game. English isn't the first language here, and I am usually the one who ends up reading and translating the rules (even though all my friends and family is proficient in English, a lot of technical details and rules tend to go over most peoples head or they have a hard time grasping it). That means when ever there is a haunt, no matter if I'm the one doing the haunting or the one being haunted, I usually end up spoiling myself by having to clarify rules.
And the dice rolling is sometimes so insanely "lucky", we've actually gone through the entire house and still not had a haunt because of the improbably lucky dice throws (needing all 8 dice to be a hit and still managing). Other times we fail right away and no one has been able to pick up a single weapon or a card... I really want the game to be good, it is perfect for my type of game group, but it simply has those niggling issues that make me hesitant to pull it out...
I completely agree with you!
Been a while since I've watched a DT video. Trying to watch something in a break at work. Put it on 1.25x speed. Woah... Hyper-Vasel alert! Too much!
I only view these on 2x speed. What are you on about. 1.25 is slow as...
I've played Pandemic Legacy seasons 1 and 2, Charterstone, and am halfway through Clank Legacy. I agree with Tom's order. I really did not like Charterstone. It just felt like there was so much weight to your decisions but you have no way of knowing what was a good or bad decision. I made, what ended up to be, mostly bad decisions and basically had no chance after the 4th game and then had to play through 8 more, and its story was weak. Also some factions are stronger than others, not very well balanced which is a complaint I've heard from other people about certain Stonemier games. Can't wait to play Pandemic season 0.
Same happened to us, by the end of the game we didn't even unlock all mechanics from the game which is stupid, but more importantly since it's not equal on what each player unlocks it's based on pure luck, we even had players just sink even lower trying to desperately catch up by unlocking things similar to what other players got.
In our group we have played Betrayal Legacy, Pandemic Legacy I and II, and Seafall (and Gloomhaven), and while Seafall has obvious shortcomigs, it gave us our favorite and our most memorable legacy game experience. We have talked to other gaming groups who liked it less, and a challenge is that while it is a competitive game, you do to some degree need to cooperate and at least share some information; if you don't, the game will slow down significantly. We didn't have a problem with that; we found a good balance between competition and cooperation, and for all the players (we were 5) it is the best and most legendary legacy game experience; for us the big reveal in Seafall (when an item that we really did not expect came into play) was far more impressive and had a lot more impact than the September event in Pandemic Legacy I.
If I'm understanding correctly, you shouldn't buy a legacy game used? (Because pieces get permantly changed). Asking because I've seen a couple of these used at stores before and was considering them.
I've only played 2 Legacy games, and we quit halfway though them both.
Seafall is one of them, and the biggest reason we didn't finish it wasn't because the game was bad, but we played with 5 players, 1 of them has more or less quit now and another one doesn't play that much, and when he does he wants to play more interesting (non-legacy) games.
Thanks Tom, I feel im gonna get season 0. I liked Seafall, it has a lot of issues but with the right people its still fun
Surprised to see I’ve played through most of these! I guess I have a type and didn’t even realize it.
My group and I had to stop playing risk legacy. We loved going through it, but it also led to certain factions getting over powered and therefore never finished it.
Clank, Kings dilemma or Aeons end may have to be next on my list!
I know Zombie Kidz got slightly shafted here due to it being a kids game, but if you have children age 6-12 you owe it to yourself to get this game. Personally I was weary of the theme (and wasn't nuts about the title, the rulebook, or even that it's a legacy game to be honest) but once I got this it was an absolute hit which we literally had to force ourselves to play less as to not exhaust it too quickly.
Did you play only Zombie Kidz Evolution, or did you also play the original Zombie Kidz? How do they compare? Is the original worth it, does it give a good preview of the Evolution game?
@@ghyslainabel Don't know about the original, but would definitely suggest Evolution over that. The Legacy aspect is implemented perfectly, it's not really a gimmick but a way to gradually build up complexity and motivate playing again and again through various means. I don't think a non-Legacy variant would work nearly as well.
@@DrMcFly28 I see my nephew once every months. Would the legacy game be a good game in that kind of situation?
Absolutely. I bought it to play with my nephew(6 yrs.), but turned out that my niece(4yrs.) absolutely loves it.
Ghyslain Abel I think so. The base version is very simple and easy to teach and then it develops as you open up envelopes and the rule book encourages you to adjust the legacy parts in accordance to the level of the children you play with. So you can scale back if it gets too complicated.
Great list! Pandemic season 1 has my top spot right now, I really disliked many parts of part 2 although it's the most interesting idea and it's the one I found myself making strategies in my head between sessions the most. Extremely engaging but felt so stressful and dare I say luck based on which path you end up taking in game and what you explore first which can make the game too challenging or too easy, the final mission also felt so anticlimatic and disappointing. And then there's season 0 which I thought I would enjoy the most but the epidemic mechanic kept giving 3-5 outbreaks in cities with 0 surveillance which was too often for comfort and the "base infiltration minigames" made me stop playing all together somewhere around october I think. I really like the theme and idea but as a player I need slightly more control over my success cause card draw more than in earlier seasons can shoot you in the foot in a big way. Just my opinions, so even though season 1 is pretty basic it always felt balanced to me, things can always go bad quick since it's pandemic but the out of your control chaos scenarios were rare enough that I could laugh it up, not so much with the other seasons after a while.
King’s Dilemma is my favorite by far...but now I have more to look into!
There was a discussion on Facebook about the Pandemic Seasons games. My observation was
"I think part of the reason people don't like S2 is that with S1 you could play it like normal Pandemic and it wouldn't hurt you as badly. Yeah, there are some things you have to avoid or do differently, but ultimately it is Pandemic. S2 if you played it like Pandemic you will not have fun. Oh in the first couple months it wouldn't matter as much, but as you get further along then you will start to get hurt more and more."
When my wife and I played we weren't really paying attention to the legacy deck and sometime in October or November we protected some cities while we let some other cities that we didn't care too much about get in a bad place. By the time December rolled by we realized that we couldn't win the game with our current layout. So we had to throw the first game in December to help clean stuff up in order to try to win the game. So late December was our last hurrah. We did stuff with the deck to help us out. With it only being the last shot it made it for a tense game, but in the end we prevailed. And it lead to an epic story. My character was the savior of the day.
S1 I played a couple times and it was still fun. S2 I've only played once but, after we stopped playing it like it was a normal game of Pandemic, we started to have fun in it and by the end it was a great time. All in all I'd probably put S1 up above S2. I can't wait to try S0.
Hello, being new to board gaming, I never played the pandemic legacy games as they came out. This means that when I come to play them, I have all 3 available to me from the beginning.
Do you recommend starting with season 0 as chronologically it comes first, or to start with season 1 because you’re supposed to or it introduces mechanics to you better or something?
I recommend playing S1 > S2 > S0 .. the same order as released. imo, the games will flow better both mechanics and storyline.
My wife bought me clank legacy, the only boardgame she likes playing and we are through scenario 6. It is just the best game of all time. Serious, fun, entertaining, changing a lot, we are addicted. We've been playing clank for a year and a half and this legacy version is just the holy grail. 10/10.
One reason there are fewer legacy games is that they are a hard sell for casual gamers. In general, you pay the same price as a standard game, but you need to play through the entire "campaign" fairly quickly, and when you're done you can never play the game again. Compare that to Pandemic, which can sit on your shelf for a decade, being pulled down once every few months for game night.
Yeah, even for people that play a ton that can be a big issue. I kind of like it though, there are soooo many games out there I think I would be okay with them being "finished"
Been slowly playing through Pandemic Legacy Season 1 with some friends. Before the real pandemic hit we had just finished August...
Please tell me how I get back the cards I ripped apart in Gloomhaven so I can reset it? And how do I get a new map sheet? It's the bloody DEFINITION of a legacy game. Even Pandemic Legacy is less of a legacy game.
Risk remains my top Legacy experience, in large part because of the novelty, and because of the group we played with. I also think I just prefer competitive Legacy games over co-op. And Pandemic is lower for me, too, because I was so tired of its base gameplay before starting Season 1 that it colored the experience in a negative way for me.
greatfrito I m dying to try risk legacy any chance you want to play again virtually
Clank Legacy is my favorite, but to be fair, I haven't played too many of them!! I wonder if they will make a clank in space legacy game!!
I miss my Clank! Legacy group. We’ll get back to it some day. I was ready to pass on Pandemic 0 after the other two, but if it’s that much better...
Clank Legacy was great, but it does have a tough mechanic where if you get a great offer on your turn randomly you might get an awesome card and just win outright. Still great game!
And which game you recomended for playing solo with legacy game?
Great list Tom, my top legacy game right now would be Aeons end legacy but I havent played pandemic legacy season 0 or clank legacy yet so.....
I love Aeon's end legacy and clank kegacy is miles ahead, go for it.
@ Its on my list, just hard to get out during a pandemic! Hopefully will play it and have a review up by sometime next year
Pandemic season zero is the best one? Tom you and I are VERY different gamers.
I am kinda shocked you don't consider gloomhaven a legacy game. It has envelopes, it has boxes you need to do stuff to open, it has stickers...Hell, the stickers on the abilities mean you really can't reset it easily even if the map stickers can just be ignored or whatever. I can't think of a single way it isn't a legacy game...
Thank you!! I was looking exactly this, i want to buy my first legacy game and you have my a good perspectiva also severa options. Great video.
What’s the next step for legacy games? App driven? Replayability?
Completely agree with Clank! Own or played all or part of all of these besides My City. I never want to see Betrayal again. Those haunt rules are horrendous. Really excited to get farther in King's Dilemma.
Just finished the aeon's legacy. Love the base game, and it was fun to introduce the game to a few friends who had never played.
Clank Legacy is number 1 for me. Hoping the make another version But! In! Space!
Love the list and production of this video. I can't get over your opinion that Gloomhaven is not a legacy game. By the games design you actually physically can not reset the box to square one. Road and City cards are intended to be destroyed when prompted, choosing to make a discard pile and not destroying them is a personal choice. Also with the mercenary unlocks, you can't ever do that again. If you keep spoiler free like I have and the community is dedicated to keeping a respect towards, once you open a mercenary class you can never have that experience again. Sure you can buy new map stickers and remove the old ones, you can do that with a handful on this list.
Gloomhaven is a legacy game and it's number one on my personal list for the reasons above.
You didn't give any reasons above about why it would be number one, though. You didn't talk about the quality of the game at all.
@@DeltathRiylaan but clearly states how Gloomhaven is in fact a legacy game which was the reason for the post?
@@MostlyFaded420 I'm not sure what your point is. Seems to make no sense. The post says "it's number one on my personal list for the reasons above" but didn't give any reasons regarding why the game would be number one on their list. I was just asking about what those reasons were.
Will you guys ever do a top Lovecraft/Cthulhu games list? I'd personally love it.
How is Gloomhaven not a legacy game?, first you cannot reset Gloomhaven on it's own, you would have to buy the removable stickers made by another company! Then you add new cards, others once used are removed forever, open envelopes, open secret boxes, and progress through a campaign ALL the elements of legacy games lol.
I don't really agree with him that it's not a Legacy game, but it doesn't have that progression of rules, altering the way the game is fundamentally played that most Legacy games have. It has the same kinds of surprises that most campaign driven games have. The only reason it is a legacy game is the deliberate design to not allow you to easily reset it. The progression and flow doesn't feel like 99% of legacy games, but rather like most RPG campaign games.
Not really a dig at the game, just trying to imagine the rationale.
i enjoyed Pandemic Legacy Season 2 so much more than Season 1. There isnt much you can talk about without spoilers but Season 1 (and the base game) is way to determistic and never felt really risky for the pieces you play. Season 2 brings this little more risk and therefore its so much more intense :)
Are you going to redo this list with the new ones that are coming out like sagrada and ticket to ride?
At some point!
Betrayal legacy is our favorite, though we mid game because of covid. I think your first good legacy experience tends to get a boost due to novilty, like Tom's risk legacy.
Same here. Se have 3 games left.
Tom made this video just so he could talk about seafall again lol
Thanks Tom - I love these lists. I’m not a fan of charterstone although I think playing solo was the main reason - the automa didn’t seem to bring anything and I misread a vital rule so I have the reset pack to give it another whirl. I’m loving PLS1 and Clank and now I want Rise of Queensdale .... wonder if my other half will notice it on the credit card bill???
Usually agree with you Tom, but Gloomhaven is straight up a legacy game, even if it last 100+ hours
Gloomhaven is mislabeled as a legacy, it is a campaign game from the lineage of DnD
@@VaoleThe game is permanently changed as you play it. You change and destroy parts of the game as you play. It is certainly a campaign game, but it is a campaign legacy game.
@@jacobstacey6550 So permanently damaging a game is considered "legacy", got it. 😁
@@commandercaptain4664 Making choices you can't unmake would be a key component of legacy games, yeah.
@@commandercaptain4664 Yes, that's part of what separates them from campaign games.
I think my problem with Seafall was its length, by game 9-10 we had unlocked most of the components but the game sugested you play a full 20 something games. It became a treadmill of repeating game play with too little story or mechanics to anchor it.
For a terrible moment I thought Werewolf Legacy was going to be number 1. The only Legacy game I've had to abandon, which was a shame, because I felt the families and emergent horror stories through the generations was done so much better in Betrayal.
I dont understand why Seafall is disliked so much. I had an incredibly fun time playing it with friends.
I absolutely loved Seafall. One of the most fun games I ever played.
I liked PandeLeg2 much more than PandeLeg1. I like story, but gameplay is far more important. PandeLeg1 mostly seemed to start out as base Pandemic and slowly added in elements from the 3 expansions. So I've always been under the impression that most folks who went nuts for PL1 were unfamiliar with the expansions. PL2 was more new & fresh without rehashing. While on the whole i prefer PL1's story, i much prefer PL2's fall (october?) surprise over PL1's september.
Note: If you haven't played, PL2's fall surprise won't make sense unless you play PL1 first
Great video! Thank you. This was so helpful.
12:41 Not if you listen to Rahdo... He believes that you can still play them - as a regular Pandemic game - with your own personalized map - after you finish with it - and it will remind you of your playthrough of the Legacy game.
If you listen to Rahdo you have other issues first
Pre-ordered Seafall with metal coins for $100. Saw it on Amazon the other week for $17... still haven't played it, btw. Money well spent.
The metal coins are fantastic. My friend uses them for all games with currency. As the game it came with is....gone.
Seafall is not perfect, but still really good. Easily the best legacy game I've played - despite it faults. Well worth playing!
@@rasmusansin3273 I'm still hoping to get to it eventually, but even if I do, I will have spent $100 on something I could have grabbed for $20 if I'd waited.
@@justacynic They are nice coins.
Nice Tom, great review
I hadn't heard of legacy games until yesterday, now I desperately want to the play all 3 (or 2?) Pandemic Legacy seasons
I'm new to board games in general here. Just looking for something to start with. Clank, Dungeon run, wingspan and betrayal at house on the hill. All sound interesting specially the P&P type.
Legacy games are some of the best experiences you can have with a board game, but you need a dedicated group that will meet for 10-20 games, depending on the game.
Could you have given a definition for a legacy game at the start, so that people who have never heard the term won't assume you're talking about something else?
Should he define "board game" too? You know for those who are not familiar with the term.
The game coming back to its original in an easy way or not should is not a reason to define a game as legacy as it has nothing to do with the mechanics game itself, only with how we handle the game.
A legacy game is one that provides a unique experience to each campaign, where the campaign itself changes through plays.
Clank Legacy is really tempting to me but I just can't bring myself to buy a board game based on an RPG campaign that I don't know anything about or care to watch
I didn’t know anything about it either and still loved it. As long as you are familiar with generic D&D themes you should be ok. The idea is “imagine if you were a d&d character but had to deal with corporate bureaucracy”. I’m sure AI fans get something when certain characters show up but it is more akin to a guest star in a tv episode.
So would you say that Risk Legacy rated so highly due to it getting... a Legacy bonus? :P
Is the clock in the thumbnail from Elder Sign? if not does anyone know where its from?
Is Clank any good if I have not watched the AI show ?
I agree with most of Tom’s assessments of each legacy game, however Our family found Machi Koro legacy very disappointing .We discovered that the game became somewhat broken after the first 3 games. Whoever ended up getting the most furniture factories always won. You might conclude that everyone has an equal chance of getting this cards, but if you are the first player and rolled luckily enough and were able to have another turn straight away due to a particular factory you owned [ can’t remember the name of the card now] you usually picked another furniture factory and game over. I tried different strategies, but the person who got the most furniture factories was always the runaway winner. I’ll keep some of the components of the legacy game, but I think I’ll stick to the original game with one or two expansions.
Is it just me or is the mic picking up the fabric moving throughout this whole video?
Do you remember the 21st night of September?
Love was changing the minds of pretenders
While chasing the clouds awaaaaaaay...
I’ve only played Pandemic Season 1 (amazing experience, but now I’ve played enough pandemic), and Charterstone (biggest disappointment). I’m about to play Clank! legacy (keep hearing amazing things). I generally am liking campaign games better.
Interesting! Thanks for the reviews!
Tom. Would you consider a Legacy version of Nothing Personal?
No, I'm not that good of a designer. :)
Clean Co op out on Gloomhaven being legacy given it can be re set. Yet number one the 1st thing he mentions about it is its replay value.
Would you not consider the time stories series a legacy game?
Certainly not a legacy game
I could be totally wrong but isn’t Harry Potter hogwarts battle a legacy game? Surprised to not see it in this list if so 🤔
Do tournaments count as legacy?
They dominate the mindshare though. Way beyond what they should. That's the point... Every one of those 15 Legacy games probably got 5 times the amount of "enthusiast" attention that the average of the others did. So to the question of "are there too many legacy game?" the answer is "No, but you guys sure make it seem like there are."
we need TCG legacy "destroy opponents card", "his card becomes yours" etc
I ❤️'d Seafall soooo much.. I would not hesitate iI had an excuse to play it again.
Thanks, some surprising suggestions :)
Others are saying it too, but top Campaign list then? That'd be great as well. Gloomhaven and Pathfinder ACG for me.
Definitely agree that Clank Legacy was fantastic. Charterstone was good, but post campaign games are incredibly dull. We had a great time with Betrayal Legacy, but all our players were already well versed in the original game (wouldn't recommend for new players). Seafall is... well... it just is I guess.
The destruction part feels like a business decision to trash resell value when they could have done it differently not to be "permanent". Parents might notice it is the same story with school activity books, where are the manuals we used to cover in paper not to damage them? They're much less available because business can't sell what people can resell.
That said I disagree with BGG's definition of "Legacy". All legacy mechanics could be easily reset. Only thing that might not be as easy is sealed envelops or boxes, but you could say same if you've read the next chapter of a campaign game before playing the previous one. I think what Legacy should be about is rule/world change, not because you can or can't reset it. We're not going on "It's a war game, you should die if you lose", it's a game.
1. Why is there a box of cherry tomatoes on the shelf?
Clank was good but nothing in the game made feel that excited in the story. I also wonder if games which have sensible and repeatable games at the end inherently can’t be as interesting as once and done games.
We also played clank in a funny way - we had to play with a slight nod to trying to do the legacy stuff as much as playing the game to win. I think it’s a slight flaw that is also in Pandemic Legacy 2 - where the legacy stuff is uncoupled from winning a game.
I don't understand legacy games, can you only play them once?
First thing I've seen on your channel, really good content but you need to get that mic roughening worked out.
No post video list summary?! :(
Please do a top whatever # list of coop campaign/legacy type of games. Games that me and my group will play continuously. Please Mr. KING Vasel.
Me and my group are only played a few of these in the last year and and will watch every video you put out on the subject.
What do you think this list is?
@@Trevin_Taylor legacy only. I am saying 1) coop only 2) include campaign. A list where ps1 and tainted grail can show up.
Or just another coop top 10
Sean R you might need to rewatch this video and try to understand better what you’re asking.
@@Trevin_Taylor I am not sure about what I am asking is confusing you. Clank Legacy is not coop, Campaign is not legacy. I want a list with Tainted Grail and Pandemic Season 1, but no Clank legacy.