There is biblical precedence for a prophet who marries a 2nd wife and later dismisses her at the request of his first wife. Remember the story of Abraham.
What is interesting to me is that word "scrape." I'm 72 now, and in my childhood in the late 1950's I lived with my great grandmother for a brief time after my mother died. My great grandmother was born in 1872 in Missouri. She had a television on which I sometimes watched cowboy movies or shows. These shows involved shooting and horse action, and my gran referred to these shows as "shooting scrapes"! Which coincides rather nicely with the word "scrape" in the sense that Oliver Cowdery used in that document. That bit about "shooting scrapes" had not crossed my mind for literally decades, and aside from anything else, it's nice that this video brought my gran back to my memory!
I’ve always hear the “he got himself into a scrape”. I like you am in my 70’s. A scrape was just a difficult situation. Is it possible Fannie was the aggressor? To be a fly upon the wall.
Claiming the church is false because Joseph sinned is like claiming because King David had an affair with Bathsheba, he must have never slain Goliath, the psalms aren’t inspired, and that David never communed with heaven. And, it’s probably safe to say, most of us are worse sinners than Joseph ever was. I believe he was a Prophet of God! The fruits of his life have brought nothing but good things into mine.
Great points. Joseph was a good man. He loved Emma. We don't know all the details of when he was commanded to practice plural marriage. Even if he was only 95% right, that's good enough for me. Polygamy was different, but I am a descendant of a 2nd wife, so it's hard for me to say it wasn't inspired.
Spoken like a true Mormon sexist! That’s why child abuse is so rampant in the church and covered up! You all make excuses for the horrible things he did!!!
Unfortunately, Smith was full of falsehood. That's the sad truth and it is already a very important warning in the Gospel that a person has to be true and faithful in all regards to be a true and faithful preacher and prophete. 👑
A "nasty scrape" sounds like an argument to me. She may have wanted to discuss a touchy subject with Joseph and it turned into an argument. Then Emma comes in, and is like, "that's enough of that. Go away." Or am I missing something?
Exactly. Maybe even the two women were arguing about something and Joseph stepped in the middle of it. There are endless possibilities, the point being that "dirty nasty filthy scrape" likely has NOTHING to do with sex with Fanny, or even anything to do with Joseph's "relationship" with Fanny.
It is really simple. Don't lie about people. I have so much respect for Joseph Smith. I appreciate the sacrifice that he did for us members. Not only that, but I will put his integrity over Brigham Young's any day of the week. It isn't in the same universe. Matter of fact, I would put his integrity over any prophet, past or present. When Joseph Smith says that he did not do something, I believe him. You show me another man that was dragged out of his home and stripped naked, tarred and feathered, fought off being poisoned, having part of his scalp ripped out, and then having to deal with getting the tar off of his body and then went and preached to the members. At that same meeting some of the criminals were there and he said nothing about revenge. What an amazing man. So, when Joseph Smith said that he was against polygamy and did not participate in it, I believe him. For his accusers, I will enjoy watching them apologize to this great man.
I believe there is enough holes in the evidence for at LEAST some reasonable doubt regarding Josephs supposed polygamy. Personally I stand with you (and Joseph) on this.
Joseph practiced polygamy not because he wanted to or believed in it, but because god commanded it and Joseph was gods servant. Makes me respect Joseph even more knowing this fact.
Here is a summary of what was and was not debunked. Let me know if you saw it differently. Anti Mormon claims debunked: “Fanny married Joseph at age 15”: Debunked: She was likely at least 18 not 15. “Fanny didn’t marry Joseph, they just had an affair.” Debunked: It was seen by Joseph and others as a marriage not as adultery. “Joseph wasn’t yet making claims to having the sealing power when he married Fanny Alger.” Debunked: He likely married her after the vision of Elijah and the sealing power. Interesting questions left open on this episode: Was Joseph having a sexual relationship with Fanny Alger or were they just spiritually sealed? What did happen in the barn that made Emma and Oliver upset? Was Oliver excommunicated for saying false things about Joseph or was he saying true things that weren’t supposed to be public? I look forward to the next episode. Thanks for having such an awesome guest on!
“Fanny didn’t marry Joseph, they just had an affair.” Debunked: It was seen by Joseph and others as a marriage not as adultery." LOL. First off: "plural marriage" a.k.a. polygamy a.k.a. bigamy was illegal and was specifically prohibited by the LDS church's book of Doctrine & Covenants Every one of Smith's 30+ "plural marriages" violated the law of the land and of his own church. Secondly, if that relationship was a legitimate "plural marriage" even according to the Mormon definition of the practice, Joseph wouldn't have been accused of having an illicit affair, and Fanny wouldn't have had to leave Kirtland to escape the scandal. Smith's loyalist Levi Hancock stated that Oliver Cowdery and other church leaders planned to hold a church court to inquire as to the affair, and that Hancock helped Joseph by taking Fanny out of town so that she couldn't testify to the facts. That obviously means that the affair was illicit. On top of that, the "revelation on celestial marriage" mandates that the "first wife" give her consent to her husband to take a "plural wife". Emma Smith obviously did not consent to her husband's cavorting with Fanny in the barn. If she had, Fanny needn't have left Kirtland. That affair only began to be cast as Joseph's first plural marriage by church historians decades after the facts, and those historians only call it a plural marriage because the evidence to support it is so well-documented that calling it anything other than a plural marriage is to admit that Joseph committed adultery.
Please correct me if I am wrong here. What gets really weird, is that in this episode Don is trying to show that this was a marriage not an affair. "seen by Joseph and others as a marriage not as adultery". However, in the recent episode "BOMBSHELL New Discoveries of Nauvoo Polygamy!", he disregards the marriage and doesn't even list her so then he can list the first marriage besides Emma to a woman that was pregnant. He does this so it couldn't be about Sex however, he contradicts himself here because if the first marriage was Fanny then it is? Feels like that he tries to fix one issue by making a bigger issue in the larger scale of everything.
@@Zez88 Broc, sure, I'll explain. I'm actually not trying to fix any issues. I'm trying to understand what happened and what the motivations were. I believe if you listen to the other video again you'll find that I explain that what we have in Nauvoo is the introduction of a new social system. So, why the introduction of that system? If we look at how that system is initiated, on its own terms, it suggests certain motivations behind the system. I'll lay this all-out much more fully in written form.
Won’t it be fascinating if we find out on the other side that Fanny asked Joseph into the barn, grabbed onto him and tried to kiss him, etc. and he pushed her away and got after her and that was the “scrape”but to save her reputation, he told that guy (can’t remember his name) to take her somewhere else. She, from what I understand didn’t stay active maybe due to her anger of being scorned but couldn’t ever make Joseph look bad because he has saved her reputation? I truly have no idea but given my life experiences and other people’s experiences, it would NOT surprise me. There are a lot of ways the actual experience could go. People just want to believe the worst in Joseph. Like Bill Burr said, “Believe women, but (do we have to believe) all of them?” And I’m not quoting that against only women but I use the quote because it’s correct as well, we should want truth in all things, not what we just hope is true.
I personally know family members that went to prison or court for rape. I know them and I know the women pretty well. And my conclusion on all cases is they were all lies. That doesn’t mean rape doesn’t happen. But I think many people underestimate how many women lie about it and ruin men’s lives with false accusations.
I think it is important to remember that Fanny never claims anything. When asked she would say she had nothing to say, even to her own brother. Every detail comes from second and third had hearsay.
The topic at 47:00 - Imagine you were told by God to not tell anyone about something as socially radical as polygamy. Period. Full stop. What would you do? I think I would try to say just about anything else about polygamy EXCEPT "We are practicing polygamy." It is very possible that our current Prophet knows more about the sequence of events leading up to the Second Coming than he has been allowed to talk about. Not saying that's true, just possible. Remembering that no man will know the hour of the Lord's return - If the Prophet were asked a very direct question, might not he obfuscate, if for no other reason than to save us from going off in the wrong direction and making bad personal decisions, and to protect the Church? Higher laws.
I was gonna say, there are children's mystery books from like the 1920s with titles like "The Curious Affair of the Missing Gems"...that word, like so many others, had nothing to do with s3x back then.
Looking forward to this one. Fanny's youngest sister Clarissa is my 3rd great grandma. I always wanted to understand why the whole family was so devout, except for Fanny, despite all the controversies I hear about surrounding Joseph and Fanny. I am excited to get Don's take on it.
I mean a guy that was so bitter for 10 years and after research came back. Just goes to show. The thing that's always sad to see when someone does go is the need to create a RUclips channel and sell their former religion to make money to convince others to go to. Lucky for such, it's not denial of the Holy Spirit, an unpardonable sin, apparently you have to be an Apostle to be eligible for that, maybe even a prophet. Who knows. But a guy that's that bitter, who comes back? And he's an information machine
@NeoMahi 3 Nephi 29:7 states that saying there can be no miracle and doing it for money is like being a son of perdition for which there is no mercy. You don't have to be a higher up to meet those qualifications. If your like John Dehlin making 250k per year off of other people's doubts you are trapped, there is no backing out.
@@jefferydraper5987 bro JD cannot become a son of perdition. Don’t give him that much credit. He clearly has never received that much light and knowledge.
During all that was going on in Joseph’s life could it be possible that in the case of polygamy Joseph denied it, not out lying to hide what was going on but out of self preservation? He had been tarred and feathered in 1832 and arrested multiple times. Polygamy would have seen him hanged.
There are several journal entries from various members during the time leading up to Joseph being taken to be killed, where they hear Joseph talk about how he knew this was all coming from the moment he made it public about polygamy. I read a journal entry from a young man who had been asked by Joseph to act undercover at one of these meetings, where Members who were conspiring against Joseph we’re trying to whip each other up into anger. And one of the things they would do as they would bring in women who would say that Joseph had slept with them, or had an affair with them, or were doing something dirty with them in regards to polygamy so that it would make everybody upset. And when this boy went to tell Joseph about this meeting, he saw, he said that Joseph wept and talked about how he knew this was coming. That one of the reasons why I had a hard time admitting to polygamy in the beginning was because he knew it meant his death, so yes, polygamy was being practiced kind of behind the scenes for a while before it was made public.
not to mention the whole "heavenly mother" thing. That essentially means that mother Mary was a polygamous wife of God. Because Jesus can't be a bastard.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but could the denial of polygamy from Joseph and Emma be because it was a “sealing” solely done as a “saving ordinance”, and there technically was no “marital” relationship?
It's interesting to me that the church usually avoids the term polygamy and instead uses plural marriage. I personally think in the mind of Joseph Smith and other church leaders back then and even now there was definitely a doctrinal difference between the world's polygamy and the practice of plural marriage that God commanded and the early saints practiced.
I agree with your assessment. I have often felt that Joseph only had spiritual wives but that he lead the brethren to practice it. It makes sense to me that the one who re-introduced it wouldn't practice it.
As to the "lying", there is actually no commandment against it. The commandment in the Decalogue forbids bearing false witness against one's neighbor. When the Gestapo comes to your door to ask you if you are harboring Jews, you _must_ lie and say you're not. And that is the moral and righteous thing to do. Accusing your neighbor of harboring Jews when you know he has no Jews in his attic -- that is false witness and is forbidden by the Decalogue. So lying is *not* _per se_ a sin.
Wait, so Joseph admits in Oliver’s excommunication trial that the girl business was a secret polygamous marriage, and nobody says a thing about that? They just go about their business as if this massive bombshell was just dropped and then they ignore it? That is major speculation. What this episode convinces me of is that this was neither an affair or a marriage, the word scrape or affair (at the time) indicates some kind of confrontation, not a sexual or marriage relationship. Oliver is caught insinuating that something happened but later is pushed on that and has to admit that he has no first hand knowledge of a relationship. We really need to stop perpetuating the story of Fanny being Joseph’s first plural wife.
This is a great point, Don Bradley, who is great in a lot of ways, was being paid by Bryan hales, who is pushing polygamy. It's not hard to see that even don gets a little bias, and assumes that this is proof. The more deep these "sources" go about proof of polygamy, the more they have to jump to conclusions, and try to assume something The absence if proof isn't proof at all, and the fact that the scribe wouldn't give an account of polygamy from joseph According to polygamy deniers, many in the 12 were practicing polygamy behind Joseph's back, in Missouri and kirkland. So the scribes claim about it popping it up in Missouri only supports the deniers claims Sorry, Brad, love your stuff normally, and no hard feelings Kwaku, thanks for seeing this as well
Phew I feel soooo much better with this explanatory model! This relieves years of stress cos I have my personal witness of the truthfulness of the First vision. I'm such a skeptic and it's not unreasonable to want to get intellectual answers. Why does the lord allow seeking truth of the church to be so complicated and controversial because of topics such as polygamy, book of Mormon historical untruths, etc etc etc the list goes on
It's more a matter of our own self-righteousness at the root of the doubt. An extreme example is how the Left has no problem with immorality, as long as they're doing it, but go ballistic when they even suspect Trump said the "p" word, or when anyone from the other party is accused of any wrong doing. And on that topic there are many conservatives, not to mention people in the church, who actually want us to believe they are so morally upright that they can't tolerate, nor have ever said in private such words. REALLY???? I would bet my last dollar that every person who lost their mind over Trump's p__y comment has used the word themselves at some point in their lives. But we all like to think we're so clean and pure that we can't follow someone who is a tad less worthy than Jesus Christ. Or that them living a certain way, even though commanded by God - or claiming such - is beneath us, because our own sense of morality must be more correct than anyone else's could possibly be. In other words, we feel we get to decide what is "moral" for God to do, and when someone claims God told them to do something we see as wrong [like Nephi killing Laban] we assert our own opinion of the incident as being unquestionably right, as if we're the final & highest judge of what is moral, because our knowledge and experience is supposedly so extensive, there is nothing and no one who could know more than we do. There's an interesting thing that happens to a civilization in decline, and I think it's why the Nephites could not repent after apostatizing after Christs visit. And you can see it in society today, especially in those who leave the church: And that is, the more compromised our morality becomes, the more certain we are that our sense of right and wrong are iron clad correct, and no one should dare tell us, or even suggest, otherwise. We actually feel MORE certain of our own high moral standards as we yield to immorality. This happens to nearly every person who commits adultery: they soon deny the faith [ as D&C says] and then feel like they are too smart & righteous to "fall for" the church's teachings. Whereas a more genuinely righteous person will have more doubts and humility when it comes to judgement of right and wrong. And such tests have come to the most righteous people. Abraham had to give up his intense opposition to human sacrifice: His own Father had attempted to sacrifice him, and God saved him from the event, yet later commanded him to offer his own son. What a twist, huh? Yet he had the humility to doubt his own opinion, or sense of right & wrong, enough to obey God. But the average person is too sure of themselves to do that. They have a very high opinion of their own sense of right & wrong, and good luck arguing with them. That is why people who sleep around, and see nothing wrong with it, have no problem condemning the church, or Joseph Smith, for supposedly "moral reasons".
Jospeh never followed the rules of polygamy as stated in section 132. It can not be polygamy unless Emma was aware and gave permission. Never in scripture has God permitted a man to take a new wife while lying about it to the first wife. Brigham also did not follow the requirement that the wives must all be virgins.
Abraham broke a commandment and lied that Sarah was his sister. He also got revelation to sacrifice his son. If he were so smart and righteous, why wouldn't he just question that revelation? Because, prophets are the only ones who can get revelation to do something outside of the commandments.
It brings me joy to see how your subscriber count continues to go up by several hundred people with each video that you release. Your hard work is paying off, Cardon!
Mosiah Hancock also wrote in there that Joseph's enemies kidnapped Fanny and locked her in the top rooms of the Kirtland temple. His father and Joseph climb up to the window to save poor Fanny. Then Levi put her on his horse and rode off into the night. What? Joseph didnt have a key to his own temple? There were no guards? Have you seen how far up it was to those windows? The story is ridiculous!
My question on that court case: if the “missing minutes” were a confession of polygamy, and the scribe later left because of polygamy, why did the scribe not leave until years later? Also, why not look at the other “spiritual wifery” systems Joseph was preaching against in 1838, rather than presume this high council court case is where “polygamy reared it’s head”? As an aside, Joseph saying Oliver is his bosom friend and confidant doesn’t necessarily imply he would follow with a confession; it could just as well have been “Oliver is my close friend with whom I’ve shared many things; polygamy is not one of those things.” There’s too much reasonable doubt in my mind to fully accept this timeline; I’m more with Kwaku’s reasoning on this one.
It seems that we leave out the third option, that it was neither Polygamy nor Adultery, but a sealing for the eternities to expand his familial relationships.
The Sealing Keys were given in April 1836 but what was the understanding at the time what "Sealing" meant? I don't think the concept was immediately understood in all of its aspects and dimensions.
What was the understanding at the time of what the word “Salamander” meant? That’s right according to Dallin H Oaks “salamander” also meant a “spirit supposed to live in fire” SMH 🤦🏽♂️
The word "affair" in original French had no negative connotation, except for rather modern use in political context and in even more modern use regarding inappropriate sexual activities. So in the era examined in the video, it should be translated as "thing" (the original meaning).
We still use the word "scrap" to this day to refer to a fight. For the word "scrap" the dictionary says, "a fight or quarrel, especially a minor or spontaneous one" and even alludes to it deriving from the older English word "scrape". Just some thoughts to throw into the pot!
Concealment is not the same as lying, especially in Jewish understanding of what bearing false witness meant. There are many instances in the Bible of acts of concealment being approved by God. Jesus himself told some he healed to tell no man. He told his disciples to keep his identity as Messiah secret because his time has not yet come. He told his disciples he was not going to the passover feast, but then secretly went. Germans would not be sinning to conceal Jews hiding in their homes during WW 2. It's a conplex subject.
Keeping a secret is concealment. A straightforward public denial is not concealment and especially not when you give your wife and co-president the platform to do the same.
As I indicated, it's complex. Honesty js always the ideal, but there are situations in which public denial serves a greater good of safety and protection, as in the case of Abraham saying Sarah was his sister. Polygamy was such a situation. The Hebrew midwives lied about the birth of their children to protect them from the Pharoah's edict to kill all the firstborn sons. This act caused God to look kindly upon them. (Exodus 1:15-22). God told Samuel to only disclose a partial truth (1 Samuel 16:1-2). Nephi concealed his identity and pretended to be Laban in order to get the brass plates. Joseph concealed the gold plates. Also, read Alma 12:9 about not sharing everything one knows, but to impart only as commanded. The argument is that Joseph disclosed only as permitted by God.
@@lemjwp1756 but actively fighting against it? People were being excommunicated and disfellowshipped over it. General conference held in 1844 made it clear: “Anyone who teaches the damn fool doctrine” would be curt off from the church…”None but a fool teaches such stuff. The devil himself is not such a fool…I wish the elders of Israel to know that it is lawful for a man to have one wife but it is unlawful for a man to have more, and God has NOT commanded ANYONE to have more.”
This is so difficult to listen to! Don Bradley has a vault of new information and the amount of joking is ridiculous and stops the flow of the conversation! I’m not sure if these guys understand how terrible it is?!
I think there were a couple spots where it flustered Don too. Most of the time, the jokes and fun are great, but this is one of those times where we all need to shut up and let Don go!!!
That explanation just before 35:46 Is sweeping aside the fact that polygamy was also already being spoken of as recorded in what is now the D&C, as occurring in the church in some way. Seems we don't know if this was something received to man from God at this point, but it seems more likely that some may be either taking it upon themselves, or lived by that in a cultural way and had joined the church already in that status. Unknown, right? Well, the letter to the newspaper from the secretary to that meeting, aforementioned, could be responding to one, both, or all. One could be Joseph and the Unknown of what he had said in the meeting. Both could be both Joseph and the regular population of the church at that time, and all could be any reference to polygamy by that point in time. This to me is still very vague and to connect these dots in any sort of definitive manner is misleading. I do like to point out, about the reference to Jacob in the Book of Mormon, it would have introduced polygamy to be spoken of by church members, prior to 1835. When was the BoM completely written out exactly? It's a factor that needs to be considered.
I think a discussion on how long Joseph fought against the revelation of his practice of plural marriage would be very appropriate. Also, may we each tread lightly on our judgment of Emma Smith. NO man or woman on this earth as any standing to judge her!
I personally have always had great respect for Emma. She suffered SO MUCH!!! Can anyone blame her for not wanting to share bed space with her husband. Those weren't biblical times so it was very unheard of and she felt she had been cheated on. I would have seen it that way too, that's just natural. I'm still guessing he was never with them physically because he respected his real wife.
"I think a discussion on how long Joseph fought against the revelation of his practice of plural marriage would be very appropriate." LOL. Yeah, Joseph fought so hard against implementing polygamy that he only took somewhere between 33 and 48 plural wives in about six years. Why, if he hadn't fought so hard against it, he might have run that number of wimmens into triple digits! This was published by Smith's former close aide, Joseph H. Jackson, shortly before Smith's death: As I have mentioned the subject of spiritual wives, I will in this place, give the reader some idea of the system. The doctrine is called the "spirit of Elijah," and is kept a profound secret from the people at large, and is only permitted to be known to those, to whom it is given to know the "fullness of the kingdom," in other words, the choice spirits who surround Joe, and aid in carrying his secret measures. The doctrine is found on the 3d Chapter of Hosea, -- several passages from the writings of Solomon and David, and the passage "whatsoever ye bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven." From these scripture passages, (with which I am not sufficiently familiar to quote) aided by revelation from Joe, as respects their meaning and construction, the doctrine is derived that there is no harm in a man having more wives than one, provided his extra wives are married to him spiritually. A spiritual wife is a woman, who by revelation is bound up to a man, in body parts and passions, both for this life and for all eternity; whereas the union of a carnal wife and her husband ceases at death. Whenever the scripture forbids a man from taking to himself more wives than one, Joe made it refer to carnal and not spiritual wives; and would frequently quote the writings of David and Solomon to prove his position. Having an explanation of the doctrine, let us see the application. Joe had in his employ certain old women, called "Mothers in Israel," such as Mrs. Tailor, old Madam Durfee, and old Madam Sessions, in whom the people have great confidence, but in fact, they are the most depraved hypocrits on Earth. If Joe wishes to make a spiritual wife of a certain young lady, he would send one of these women to her. The old women, would tell the young lady, that she had had a vision, in which it was revealed to her that she was to be sealed up to Joe, (or his friend as the case might be) as a spiritual wife, to be his in time and eternity. This would astonish the young innocent, but scripture would soon be resorted to, to prove the correctness of the doctrine, and that it was proper in the sight of the Lord. Soon after this Joe would appear, and tell the lady that the Lord had revealed to him that Mrs. so & so, had had a vision concerning her, and had been to see her. Not suspecting any collusion the young lady would be astonished, and being strong in the faith, she could have no doubt but that Joe spoke by authority of God, He would then ply his arguments, and with the utmost sanctity speak "in the name of the Lord" and say that at such a time, and at such a place it had been revealed to him that she should be his or his friend's, in time and eternity. If she objected he would quote his scripture and his revelations, and thus by playing on her superstitious credulity, and artfully at the same time inflaming her passions he seldom failed of his object. Being once successful, he held the fear of exposure over her as a rod to prevent rebellion from his allegiance. When, as happened in the cases of Miss Martha Brotherton and Miss Nancy Rigdon, his overtures were rejected with disdain and exposure threatened he would set a hundred hell hounds on them, to destroy their reputations. This was a specimen of the mode and manner of Joe in carrying his vile measures of seduction. To the truth of what I have here said, there are hundreds who can testify, and I have no doubt would do it, if they could be protected from the revenge of the hellish clan, which still exists in Nauvoo. The extent to which this abomination was carried may be imagined from the fact that Joe Smith boasted to me, that he in this manner from the commencement of his career had seduced 400 women.
I don’t think Joseph much liked the idea of Polygamy anymore than Cowdery. Seems like this was a difficult point in history for him and the Church and they were struggling to make sense and workout what was a “radical” revelation that was sure to put a large amount of pressure on them regardless of how it was unveiled.
Completely agree. Hard for us to judge when we don't have all the details nor know all of God's will. Joseph and Oliver were both great yet imperfect men who sacrificed much for what we have today.
Kwaku's challenge as answered by a FB Hemlock Knots commenter (Dangman's Notes): Don's explanation of the original D&C 101 (CI) is ridiculous. The church had been reproached with the crimes of fornication and polygamy because of Joseph actually committing the crime of polygamy by marrying Fanny? So they add Section CI to lie about the beliefs of the church. Don says his interest is truth before interpretation, but his version of truth is just his interpretation. The evidence he gives of Joseph marrying Fanny is that he says he has trusted Oliver with many things? There were many more charges in that high council than just the girl business and it is true generally that Joseph had trusted Oliver with many things. That statement provides absolutely no evidence for polygamy. After Joseph died Oliver found out that the Brighamites were polygamist and was surprised and wrote a disgusted letter to his sister to find out if it was true. If he had heard of it back with Fanny why is it so surprising at that point? A better explanation for how the church had been reproached with fornication and polygamy is on record of the mission of Samuel Smith to New England. They had been teaching and staying around Cochranites and other people were shunning them and the church because of it, and people started linking their teachings with those of the Cochranites. 41:00 Don's dismissal of what Kwaku is saying is also ridiculous. If this scribe has some dirt about polygamy he would have shared it. Looking at a primary source is completely irrelevant. This would have been told if it had happened. All Don is doing is making bad inferences. 44:09 - Don gives a huge load of BS that Joseph didn't share his first vision with his own family. He quotes JSH 1:20 as evidence that Joseph kept knowledge from others. I will show you what a good historical inference looks like right now. From the text given in JSH 1 it can be clearly inferred that Joseph told his mother what happened and that the line about Presbyterianism is just a short way of describing that he told his mother. Don should read verses 21-26 where Joseph describes that a few days after his vision, he told a local preacher about his vision and Joseph describes the aftermath of his telling the story. According to Don, Joseph has kept this esoteric story from his own mother but shared it with a local preacher. (
@@WARDRADIO You swing and miss all of the time. I love Don and have had positive feelings towards him for years since interacting with him on the old MD&D board. I am also much larger and stronger than you. And have no envy and am coping with nothing. Dangman's notes absolutely show that Don was wrong when he said "full stop", Joseph didn't tell his parents about the vision. The notes also point out logical problems and historical inconsistencies with Don's inferences. Is that not the challenge put forth in your own show? Why then insult someone who brings you the results of the challenge?
It never happened! Rumor Rumor. They point at Eliza R. Snow's list but she didnt know about plural marriage until she moved to Nauvoo, she's just giving a list of maybes.
Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about this topic. I suggest that you read Richard van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy: A History" or Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives Of Joseph Smith".
@@randyjordan5521 I'm only quoting Eliza's own life sketch. These history writers rewrite history to their own agendas. They grab a partial story from one person and stick it to some other peice of false info and then draw conclusions. The men in that council room for Oliver's excommunicate, which included my husband great great grandfather, did not know about plural marriage. Just because it says Joseph told them about the girl's business it doesnt equal plural marriage. That's reading into it more than what is there. Maybe Fanny had a girlish crush on Joseph maybe she came on to him. Theres some reason she got out of town fast. And her living with the Webbs, that came from Eliza Webb the 19th wife of Brigham Young, but really the 50th I guess. She ran all over the place with her stories but she wasnt even born until after Joseph died. She never met any of them. If you had to prove it in court, you couldn't. All the info is late second and third hand. These historians should be ashamed of themselves.
@@NancyBrown-xw8hg Again---Eliza R. Snow is only ONE of NUMEROUS sources of info about the Fanny Alger affair. Those multiple sources are the very reason that credible historians list Fanny as Joseph's first plural wife. That is how historians work: they piece together various sources to tell the complete story of incidents. The men in that council did not know about "plural marriage" because no such thing existed at that time. The incident was nothing more than the skirt-chasing Joseph Smith getting frisky with a 16 year old servant girl in a barn, and getting caught. That is exactly why Oliver Cowdery called it a "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape". If you believe that the 16 year old Fanny "came on to" Joseph, you are really demonstrating the level of your naivete. Are you not aware that Smith plural married three other girls who were younger than Fanny? Are you not aware that Lucinda Morgan Harris told Sarah Pratt that she had been Smith's "mistress" since 1838, which was just a couple of years after the Fanny incident? The Fanny affair was the reason why Oliver Cowdery inserted the "Article on Marriage" into the 1835 D&C---BECAUSE "this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy." Cowdery didn't come up with that out of the blue and for no reason. He was well aware of Joseph's tryst with Fanny. That is the very reason he and other church leaders placed Fanny in an upper room of the temple while they sought out Joseph to confront him. And that is why Levi Hancock took Fanny out of town, to keep her from testifying about the affair. That is why Fanny left the church and married a non-Mormon just months later. And that is why one of the charges against Cowdery in his own later church court was that he had accused Smith of adultery. After Smith got rid of Cowdery, and moved to Nauvoo, he "plural married" more than 30 other women before his death. So your attempt to deny his affair with one girl, Fanny, is laughably naive.
Oliver Cowdery had a blessed life but he also is one of the greatest fools in history. Almost to the point of being a fool like Judas. Ignoring everything that Oliver has seen up to 1836 if one looks as the events at the Kirkland Temple on April 3, 1836, Oliver was present with Joseph Smith to witness one of the greatest events in human history. That being seeing Christ, Moses, Elias (either Noah or Abraham) and Elijah at the temple at the same event. They did not come because Oliver was in the Temple. They came because of what Joseph Smith had been able to do and Joseph was there. Oliver knows this and should always know and remember this. Joseph Smith is important. Far more important than any other human being that had lived on the earth in the last 1500 years or more. He is far more important than any human being living today. What man today can say they have seen either Moses, Jesus, Abraham or Noah, and Elijah let alone all together on the same day? None because no man today is important enough for any of them to come visit. Joseph Smith is relevant to them. You are not nearly as relevant and that is why they are not coming to see you. So Oliver has seen these facts yet he so quickly dumps on Joseph when Joseph does something that Oliver does not approve of. He should have been smart to ask Joseph why he did what he did for his learning, not criticism. If Jesus, Moses, and the rest had the confidence enough in Joseph, Oliver should have had the confidence in Joseph decision making process as well. So to go from the experience of the Kirkland Temple to where Oliver went little later was boldly foolish. Joseph was simply operating as level far above than Oliver could ever achieve in his life and he should have trusted Joseph decisions even if he did not understand them. Joseph Smith is fundamentally different than everyone else. Yes any other man who did what Joseph did it would be easy for that man to criticize. However when one is at the position like Joseph was at, if he is doing something we don't like or approve, is the problem with Joseph Smith or us? What are we missing that Joseph is seeing. As a LDS person, I will take any criticism from Joseph Smith from anyone. BUT I will only take those criticisms seriously from people who have lived a life relevant enough that Moses, Elijah, and Jesus saw the need to appear to these people. Until then, I generally default to the decisions of a man who was life was that relevant that such things could happen.
If Joseph had committed adultery why would Heavenly Father keep him as his prophet? Joseph was certainly chastised for loosing the manuscript pages how would he let adultery just slide?
@@krismurphy7711 God didn't send Joseph to jail, the anti Mormons did. Joseph's mother was given revaluation that he allowed Joseph to be killed so he could rest. He had been tortured in every way possible and had been through enough. Trust me, he didn't marry lookers. I've seen pictures of his "wives" and it seems he wasn't looking to get lucky. You being so full of hatred to make believe what doesn't exist must be exhausting
@@StompMom5 preach it sister! The Prophet was martyred 1844 so Murphy you are saying God didn’t punish him for ten years? Meanwhile giving Joseph more revelations and using him to build the church as we know it? That was a very weak troll you tried to pull.
Guys Joseph Smith said he was not practicing polygamy. He never practiced polygamy. That is and was illegal. He practiced Plural marriage. They are not the same. Plural marriage is and was legal in accordance to he First Amendment., until the US government altered the meaning in late1800s. Today it is legal again. Mormons need to stop using Polygamy and Plural marriage as if they are the same concept. It makes Joseph look like a liar.
@@griffinarnold8772 This issue involves the concept of the separation of church and state. Under the 10th Amendment unless given specific power the Federal government must accept the laws of states in regards to civil rights and privileges. Marriage laws are under state jurisdiction. Polygamy is the act of registering marriages of one party to several individuals. It is a secular concept. It is under state domain. It is illegal in every state. Plural marriage is a religious institution. It is protected therefore by the First Amendment. The "Freedom of Religion" So long as participants do not register their plural marriages in a State or Federal courtroom, involving secular law, they are not committing polygamy. Hence Joseph Smith and other Mormons were not practicing polygamy, as their marriages were not registered in secular courtrooms. Today Muslims are practicing Plural marriage in the US without prosecution as they do not register their marriages in courtrooms. Thus no state can legally dictate marriage practices, especially religious ones, outside the authority of their powers. Hope this helps.
As I've looked into polygamy more closely I don't even know why, we as members of the church, take the account of Fanny Alger seriously at all. The evidence that they were sealed is very very scant.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Just rumors, from second hand people, saying that Oliver Cowdery said.... Such and such a thing. When Joseph confronted Cowdery about the rumor Cowdery denied it and refuted it. Cheers.😁
@@SethKellerArt Cowdery said he had discussed with Smith the “dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger’s … in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself.” January 21, 1838, in Oliver's own words to his brother, Warren. That darn Oliver! Debunkin' the debunkin'!
@@rodneyjamesmcguire The word used is actually scrape, in the place of affair. So right away you are being disingenuous. We don't know what Oliver might be referring to in this letter. But he is insinuating. That is to say, he doesn't know, but is trying to make Joseph look bad. The evidence from primary sources that Fanny and Joseph were ever married remains scant and based entirely on second or even third hand sources.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Oliver's letter is not much for me. If the affair was so blatant why did he write it one time in a letter to his brother and then never mention it again. And why was he so vague about it? Why didn't he just come out and say it. He is alluding to something he disagrees with, but never says what it is, why didn't he just say it? If the letter was ever written in the first place, where is it?
55:00 "Polygamy" is a BS excuse for ADULTERY. There is no basis to believe that there was ANY LEGITIMATE BASIS FOR POLYGAMY. We have to TRUST JOSEPH SMITH....that HE WAS TOLD TO PRACTICE IT. Angel with a Flaming Sword is a hell of a story.
Polygamy is not adultery. Adultery is having sexual relations with someone they are not married to. By definition, if a man has sex with his wives, he is not committing adultery with them. Though I don't believe Joseph had sex with any of his polygamist wives besides Emma.
17:50 LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT.... On one hand, is a previous Episode, Don cites a 40 YEARS AFTER THE FACT COLUMN (Fayette Lapham) to boost his argument about Masonic symbols actually being include with/in the Book of Mormon....BUT NOW McClellin's retelling is discarded for being 20 years after the fact??? Don can use a quote from Joseph Sr but The World can't use a quote from Emma???
@onandagus1 HELL YEAH! TELL 'EM! I didn't know you had a youtube account man. I gotta tell you how absolutely wonderful your work has been for me. I'm excited for your new book. I appreciate you good sir 🙏
@@onandagus1 Your book is amazing. I devoured it in a few hours in a single evening, faster than any book I've ever read of a similar size. Please keep up the good work.
Jesus did say to agree with thine adversary while in their way, so, they won’t throw you in jail. It is a possibility he did lie, but, spiritual wifery sealing without consummation works also. He was sealed to men and older women. Interesting topic. I’m ok either way, at this point.
This was a matter of life and death. It’s easy to sit here in 2023 in an air conditioned home watching Disney plus while stuffing our fat mouths with junk food claiming lying about plural marriage was wrong and cowardly. Joseph knew openly practice it would result in more Saints being murdered. It’s the correct choice in the circumstances.
What's in it for someone who has an affair..they could get caught and be divorced and lose half their house and pension. But when someone's chasing tail they aren't thinking about that and they assume they won't be caught out.
1:05:20 interesting thought. I believe (my own personal belief no one has to share, im gonna need everyone to get all the way off my back on this) it would fit with the character of Joseph, to receive some light and knowledge and IMMEDIATELY try to engage with it or use it. The baptism, the receiving if the aaronic and melchizedek priesthood, the temple endowment. Who in their right mind wouldn't be absolutely churning with anxious desire to fulfill and use their newfound keys of priesthood, that the earth hasn't seen in many many years? If it was me I'd be chompin at the bit to blow through all of em like freaking merit badges, ya'know?
Problem is, all of those claims of receiving priesthood authority from divine beings were invented AFTER Joseph published his book and founded his church.
Worst case scenario, Joseph committed adultery with an underage girl. But even if this was true, historically, many prophets have done just as terrible things from our modern perspective. Joshua offed men, women and children. Most Book of Mormon prophets fought and killed in wars. David committed adultery, but we know that was not his most grievous sin, it was killing Uriah. I just think that God doesn't judge in the same way mortals do.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!! If God is going to let his Prophet off on Adultery with a Young Girl Joseph had power and control over.....WE ALL ARE IN THE CLEAR!!! GO AND SIN ALL THE MORE!!!!!
Regardless, whatever Joseph Smith did or didn't do is Joseph Smith's problem. I am only responsible for what I do and what I know. Anyway, good comment.
But the difference between those Biblical characters and what Joseph Smith did is that Smith claimed that his misdeeds were the product of a "revelation from God."
It obviously wasn't. The Church in 1890 strongly denounced it. And since the Beginnings of The Rumors about it, IT HAS DAMAGED THE CHURCH...AS IT IS RIGHT NOW in 2023!! Do you really think Jesus is that dumb...to put in place an unnecessary policy, against the Lat in Illinois, that would hinder HIS CHURCH FOREVER???@@fightingfortruth9806
This is really interesting. Facts don't fit the Anti's narrative. That's because the Anti's are hateful. Maybe they should be more open minded and Christ like and not so judgmental. I love this discussion. The more I understand early church history the more I appreciate and know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Great stuff.
Umm probably half of "antis" agree it was a marriage. Many undecided. Doesn't change any of the problems that she was the housekeeper, and treated like a daughter, for a while
Couple things 1)Algers were supporters of Smiths since New York. They moved with them. She wasn’t a servant girl, she was helping with their home because of the emotional strain on Emma. 2)Fanny Alger in relation to Joseph is not the same Fanny Alger that was married in Indiana. There is no proof of that. The real story there is being missed. 3) Joseph extended his spiritual family relationships with sealings to build alliances. With regards to Fanny he never claimed to be perfect. Maybe the issue is the way we view polygamy was shaped by rumors and BY, and not Josephs policy- To determine that we would need to understand his intent and we don’t know that. It’s clear they were sealed. 4) The other person in Joseph’s house was Oliver. Ask yourself what Oliver’s opposition and the conflict between he and Joseph was fueled by.
I’m with kwaku - I think this idea of “carefully worded denials” is bunk and a convenient way to ignore that actual historical record to ensure it aligns with a particular narrative. It would be more honest if people like Hales et al simply said “yeah JS always denied it publicly and we don’t understand why.”
@@michaelhutchings6602 I highly doubt that. Brigham Young and apostles started living polygamy more openly and having children in late 1844. In Nauvoo. Two years before they left. Why weren't they murdered? Strung up? Most people say that Carthage was a result of destroying the Expositor printing press and declaring martial law in Nauvoo.
@@michaelhutchings6602 disagree. You have to take that position because the historical record doesn’t support your position. What evidence do you have? None. I believe Joseph and Emma, and whatever BY implemented we will find out one day.
@@Heartsinmelodyto imply this is to say our beliefs are wrong. i’m gonna go with michael. to publicly acknowledge plural marriage meant death. what do you think the nauvoo expositor was about? antis trying to “expose” our teachings on exaltation and celestial marriage. all love brother
I know I'm late to the party, but in French, the word 'affaire' means business. Kinda leans in to the 'something to be done' meaning of the word at the time period.
My biggest question for Don Bradley is - Why wasn’t Emma the first person Joseph sealed himself to? I’m just curious. Did he already feel they were sealed because of their marriage? Did she have any objections to being sealed?
The sealing to Emma is a huge problem, and it occurs during Hyrum's second marriage which also presents huge problems for polygamy deniers, because the need to seal fits Joseph practicing polygamy.
We need to cut these guys some slack. Their lives were crazy and they are just trying to keep God's commandments without a handbook nor a cozy office to ponder in. I agree he probably felt like he was already eternally committed to Emma. He probably corrected all thec sealings in Nauvoo. Or maybe not. Again I give them a lot of grace on this.
I really appreciate Don Bradley's research. Realizing a few days ago that I am related to Fanny Alger, brings this closer to home for me. And gives me sympathy. Her younger sister is my 3rd great grandmother. Good family. I always said Al-jer as I read their names in my head on Family Tree, and my dad, being from Parowan, always said Al-jer. He may have known some distant Alger cousins there. But I'll say Al-gur now, if it's the proper way. Thanks for the research. Only a few years ago, I heard about this 15 year old house maid who allegedly had an affair with Joseph. I didn't believe it, but still it was disturbing. Now I hear that she was his first plural wife and she was closer to 18, being born in 1816. It makes sense that he chose her because perhaps Emma may have gotten along with her at the time. Her uncle Levi Hancock (my 5th great uncle) got permission from her parents and from her for the marriage.
Or it was a nothing rumor or . . .. it was one sided on Fanny's part and she got turned out because she was being inappropriate. All of those other narratives are available to us.
Young women have a flirty innocence to the ways of things and I can see an older mancrush on Joseph also. This is s intriguing! If she made a pass at Joseph with indecency involved, that would be dirty rotten also, but, the other way around with Joseph flirting more than Emma was comfortable with would also fit. If she or he were inappropriate with each other, the meeting notes would probably be missing either way. Restorationists in the area were strong believers in multiple wives, and some probably joined the church. If Brigham inspired the practice or Joseph, it fit the narrative used in BOM to build up Gods kingdom and to take care of widows etc. stay with us Kwaku! Back then women wanted a man who could take care of them and many may have seen the cesspool of Warsaw men and willingly chose to be a multi-wife participant to a man of God. Men are not so innocent in there hormonal enticings either, even men of God have to be vigilant.
@@silvereagle1717 I mean Joseph Smith was a looker. One other parallel is the Elvis Presley story. Many women claim to have been his paramour and denied most of them, but there's some strange circumstantial evidence that said he was lying, and other evidence that keeps him clean. So that option has to be open to us.
@@PeterBrownscouts I think I see that with a certain Presidential candidate in todays climate with accusations from women to destroy a man. That parallel is now very intriguing. There are women who will spin that tale today. Why not back then? Good point.
Don, I'm interested in how you would describe the difference between an affair and a polygamous relationship. Obviously there is the implication of God's command or prohibition, approval or disapproval, and as well, the approval or disapproval of those members of the church that are in harmony with God's opinion here. And these are important distinctions. I wonder about other differences. For example, with a marriage I have an expectation of faithfulness to the relationship, by which I'm also including time spent, effort given into the relationship, and perhaps lifetime or eternal maintenance of the relationship. Not necessarily so with an affair. I'm sorry, I'm only a third of the way in to the interview so far, but I would like to know what kind of relationship Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith had and maintained. You've mentioned Fanny Alger married and lived with a non-Mormon in ... 1836? IIRC. Was there any relationship between FA and JS after this? Was there financial support given to Fanny Alger? Did she have any legal or informal claim to the money or time of Joseph Smith? Was there any record of a divorce before (or after) she remarried?
"Don, I'm interested in how you would describe the difference between an affair and a polygamous relationship." Well, considering that polygamy was against the law of the land and was specifically prohibited by the LDS church's book of Doctrine & Covenants, and Joseph Smith quoted that text in his denial of teaching or practicing polygamy--- ---then maybe that will help you decide whether Smith's relationships with other women were affairs or "plural marriages".
@@randyjordan5521 Good questions. Some factors I would consider are: Were the people involved intending to enter a marriage? Did they view it as a marriage? Was there some sort of ceremony? In two chapters I've submitted for publication in 2024-2025 I'll show that the answer to all these questions is yes.
@@onandagus1 No Mormon "plural marriage," at any time, was ever a legal marriage. No marriage licenses were ever applied for, and none were granted. That is because it is illegal to be married to more than one person. Case in point: When Ann Eliza Webb divorced Brigham Young and sued for alimony, Young's lawyer argued in court that their relationship was merely "an ecclesiastical matter, not a legal one." The judge agreed, and denied Ann alimony. Brigham Young also taught that if a woman wanted to leave her husband for man holding a higher priesthood, she could do so "without a bill of divorcement." Meaning, Mormon polygamy was really just a huge wife-swapping sect, with the highest-ranking leaders getting the most desirable women. That is how Young got 56 "wives." Also, Emma Smith definitely did not see her husband's relationships with other women as real marriages, because Emma threw those women out of her house as soon as she suspected that the ceremonies were more than just "spiritual."
Considering that one of the charges against Oliver Cowdery in his 1838 church court was that he had accused Joseph Smith of committing adultery, then his words "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape" obviously referred to his tryst with Fanny Alger. I doubt that Cowdery was talking about Smith falling in the mud and getting his clothes dirty.
I'm in Utah for a wedding, it's an awesome place. "In the last days the mountain of the LORD's house will be established at the top of the mountains and will be raised above the hills." Oh yeah!!!
@@krismurphy7711 Yes, there is one dude in a tux and four women in white gowns. This will be quite the honeymoon let me tell you!!!! Dump the whole 'I hate Mormons thing'
I don't know how you can come here and not feel how much God loves this place. He set it apart for his one true Church. They were kicked out of the United States while being shot at by cannons. That is as low as a people can get. But not only did they survive, they flourished and built one of the coolest places in the whole world. Even when the Army came to destroy them God sent a blizzard to protect them. Seagulls to defend their crops. Water when they needed it, sunshine when they needed it. We certainly are a blessed people.
Oliver's letter clearly accuses *Joseph* of wrong doing in the incident. And we have several other documents that indicate a relationship he had with Fanny, including the minutes of Oliver's excommunication trial. So, no, accusing Fanny of stealing from the Smith's explains absolutely nothing.
Operative Word? "Cardon" Cardon is an actor...entertainer...his schtick is to be the bombastic loud mouthed interrupting fool that you see. You know what I'm saying?
To assume all those who’ve left the church are angry and depressed is pretty messed up. This is why I have no desire to come back. The judgements, condemnation, and the “we’re better than you” mocking attitudes are so toxic.
It kind of drives me crazy that Fannie's last name is pronounced Al-Ger with the G sounding like it does in "German". My wife's family pronounces it All-Ger as in the word "Gerber". My wife's grandmother is an Alger. Seems they would know how to pronounce it.
I don't find the fact she later on married to be evidence there was no polygamous marriage. A lot of his wives were already married, were married after their sealings and things of that nature. The point that I think should everlastingly go to Joseph's moral credit is Fanny had every opportunity to throw him under the bus - she would have been lauded and believed - but she never did. She declined to comment.
I can usually understand what is being said. But the voices seem somewhat muffled. I do not have this problem with other RUclips channels. With all those audio switches that Cardon has, cannot he clear up the voices on the videos?
I wonder if Cardin's mic is too high? Or if somehow he could compress the volume so you don't have to turn it down when he gets excited and starts yelling into his mic
Beating false witness means to accuse someone of something they didn’t do. Joseph being vague or denying his practice of polygamy is not bearing false witness.
Have you done any research on how the word 'affair' was used only in business issues.... ? I found many... do that... and I believe for this reason that they used the word because Fanny stole from the Smith home and was caught and her father was there for that reason..... sad that people don't go deep enough to get the real story
The fact that Joseph is still being attacked after nearly two years ... defines how deep they have gone.... it is now being exposed for what it was... the researchers finding the truth aren't paid by the church..... try their research..@@jamestrek2570
It wasn't used only regarding business issues. Webster said it was a word of very "general signification" - it could be used to apply to anything. Also, Oliver didn't use this word at all. His nephew his replaced his actual word with the word "affair." So the word affair is irrelevant to what he meant. Also, many early sources say Joseph had a relationship with Fanny; literally NONE say she stole from him.
I can painfully swallow that polygamy was being kept secret except when it comes to Emma. That's the toughest one for me. He somehow thought he could keep a secret marriage and possible pregnancy secret from Emma??? Mind you this is the guy that couldn't continue translating the plates until he reconciled with Emma over an issue they had.
I LOVED THIS episode. It is so important that we talk about these things and this historian has blessed my life. I am so grateful to know that we just simply don't know. I just remember trying to defend this topic in the buckle of the bible belt and feeling like the narrative just fell flat!
Also, what I have found sent me into some seriously dark times. I did overcome it with revelation and I really just love that you guys are doing this. I wish i had this a decade ago!
The problem with podcasts and this form of investigation is that 95% of it is fluff and you walk away with like 2-3 semi good facts to latch on to. Plus, Don spends 1/2 his time just psycho analyzing other historians in a way that discredits them for theoretical biases that he can neither prove and isn’t even specific in his argument. Rob F sticks to specific points and hard evidence to support his thesis; we don’t get much of that here. For example we hear about Oliver Only but have no way to verify anything through citation.
The fact that Joseph Smith also plural married two 14 year old girls in the 1840s should be even more disturbing to you. Not to mention the fact that he also plural married at least eleven women who were married to other men at the time. And not to mention the fact that several of those women testified that they had sex with Smith as well as their legal husbands. And not to mention the fact that polygamy was against the law of the land and was specifically prohibited by the LDS church's book of Doctrine & Covenants. And not to mention the fact that polygamy was the prime cause of Joseph's death. But other than that, there was nothing negative whatsoever about Joseph's plural marriage practice!
As far as Joseph Smith and Emma lying about it, I don't see it that way. The way I see it, how was the question asked? For what I can tell Joseph what he is saying is that no, it's not going to be practice it broadly and openly. Then the few who are practicing by way of commandment are to keep it quiet and sacred for now.
One more comment and then I'm done. @Don Bradley. Considering the 1838 High Council testimony where Joseph discussed the "girl business." If everyone was satisfied, it would be because he said it wasn't true, that he never had relations with that woman, Mr. Alger. He may have even wagged his finger. If he would have gone into any detail in the council meeting, not a public meeting, my 100,000 sad 401k will wager would have found several of these high council people, even ONE, over the next 50 years, spilling the beans. They didn't. Robinson's discussion about polygamy seems to say that it was discussed, not that it was admitted to. Robinson was eager to whistle blow on polygamy because he did it with Hyrum Smith later on. Maybe he was still on the fence in 1844, but surely he would have said something in his later affidavits. He didn't. The High Council meeting really does nothing to further the Fanny Alger scandal and make it more true, whether its polygamy or a sexual affair. The Alger story is only interesting in that it's a dog whistle for later polygamy or later sex scandals that have stronger evidence. It's an asterisk, not a feature.
Fanny Alger is another and a very important chapter in the sins always present and particularly female sins. This "transaction" occurred 10 years before many claim Joseph every heard about a second woman.
Absolutely disgusting using a sultry woman spilling out of her top to represent a 15 year-old girl.. A girl who was likely pressured into sex. Just vile.
49:00 ish. Speaks to the potential lie of Joseph Smith, one way we could see this potential situation, as not a lie, is to compare what the world thinks of polygamy and what the church at the time may have thought of polygamy. I'm no historian, so my information may be wrong here but; The world thinks multiple wives= multiple sex partners and thus multiple sets of offspring. And the church, at least with Joseph Smith, thinks of it as multiple sealings and not multiple sex relationships. Thus no multiple sets of offspring. We can see this play out in Joseph who says later on somewhere; paraphrasing off my memory: where are all these other children? You can see I have none, other than from Emma. I know I botched that up. But, you can see what I mean. Joseph's children that he actually did rear were only from Emma. So, is Joseph Smith lying to the world, if he did have a polygamous sealing to multiple wives, but didn't have a physical marriage and sex with any woman beyond Emma? This doesn’t seem to be a lie. Just using the terms given the way they were made to him.
Don is an incredibly good soul. Love listening to his findings
There is biblical precedence for a prophet who marries a 2nd wife and later dismisses her at the request of his first wife. Remember the story of Abraham.
Fantastic reference.
What is interesting to me is that word "scrape." I'm 72 now, and in my childhood in the late 1950's I lived with my great grandmother for a brief time after my mother died. My great grandmother was born in 1872 in Missouri. She had a television on which I sometimes watched cowboy movies or shows. These shows involved shooting and horse action, and my gran referred to these shows as "shooting scrapes"! Which coincides rather nicely with the word "scrape" in the sense that Oliver Cowdery used in that document.
That bit about "shooting scrapes" had not crossed my mind for literally decades, and aside from anything else, it's nice that this video brought my gran back to my memory!
I am 75, from West Virginia. I heard the word 'scrape' used as if it was a fight or heated argument .
I’ve always hear the “he got himself into a scrape”. I like you am in my 70’s. A scrape was just a difficult situation. Is it possible Fannie was the aggressor? To be a fly upon the wall.
@@pamelarust3487 - "Is it possible Fannie was the aggressor?" I highly doubt this. There's no evidence of it.
I'm eating up these episodes with Don Bradley. Keep them going!
same
I was going to comment the same. So good.
Fascinating stuff! 🎉
Great interview, the last ten minutes were my favorite. Keep up the great work.
Thank you! Great username by the way!
Thanks. It's my buisness name 😄
You guys rock. Don Bradley is awesome.
Claiming the church is false because Joseph sinned is like claiming because King David had an affair with Bathsheba, he must have never slain Goliath, the psalms aren’t inspired, and that David never communed with heaven. And, it’s probably safe to say, most of us are worse sinners than Joseph ever was. I believe he was a Prophet of God! The fruits of his life have brought nothing but good things into mine.
Great points. Joseph was a good man. He loved Emma. We don't know all the details of when he was commanded to practice plural marriage. Even if he was only 95% right, that's good enough for me. Polygamy was different, but I am a descendant of a 2nd wife, so it's hard for me to say it wasn't inspired.
Fax
Spoken like a true Mormon sexist! That’s why child abuse is so rampant in the church and covered up! You all make excuses for the horrible things he did!!!
It's not because he sinned. It's because he's clearly lying.
Unfortunately, Smith was full of falsehood. That's the sad truth and it is already a very important warning in the Gospel that a person has to be true and faithful in all regards to be a true and faithful preacher and prophete. 👑
A "nasty scrape" sounds like an argument to me. She may have wanted to discuss a touchy subject with Joseph and it turned into an argument. Then Emma comes in, and is like, "that's enough of that. Go away." Or am I missing something?
But we're supposed to be presentist and cynical about everything!!!
Yeah. Didn't sound like evidence of polygamy. Is that the only evidence of an intimate relationship with him? If so, not buying it.
so why was it such an issue? btw the original is usually quoted as "transaction"
Exactly. Maybe even the two women were arguing about something and Joseph stepped in the middle of it. There are endless possibilities, the point being that "dirty nasty filthy scrape" likely has NOTHING to do with sex with Fanny, or even anything to do with Joseph's "relationship" with Fanny.
@@vendingdudes Emma looked through a slot and saw the transaction in the barn ( between Joseph and Fanny)
It is really simple. Don't lie about people. I have so much respect for Joseph Smith. I appreciate the sacrifice that he did for us members. Not only that, but I will put his integrity over Brigham Young's any day of the week. It isn't in the same universe. Matter of fact, I would put his integrity over any prophet, past or present. When Joseph Smith says that he did not do something, I believe him. You show me another man that was dragged out of his home and stripped naked, tarred and feathered, fought off being poisoned, having part of his scalp ripped out, and then having to deal with getting the tar off of his body and then went and preached to the members. At that same meeting some of the criminals were there and he said nothing about revenge. What an amazing man. So, when Joseph Smith said that he was against polygamy and did not participate in it, I believe him. For his accusers, I will enjoy watching them apologize to this great man.
I believe there is enough holes in the evidence for at LEAST some reasonable doubt regarding Josephs supposed polygamy. Personally I stand with you (and Joseph) on this.
Joseph practiced polygamy not because he wanted to or believed in it, but because god commanded it and Joseph was gods servant. Makes me respect Joseph even more knowing this fact.
@@jaredheath3642Joseph didn’t write section 132.
@@Hpencer keep coping.
Thank you so much. I wish they would stop. They are making people leave the
Church
Here is a summary of what was and was not debunked. Let me know if you saw it differently.
Anti Mormon claims debunked:
“Fanny married Joseph at age 15”: Debunked: She was likely at least 18 not 15.
“Fanny didn’t marry Joseph, they just had an affair.” Debunked: It was seen by Joseph and others as a marriage not as adultery.
“Joseph wasn’t yet making claims to having the sealing power when he married Fanny Alger.” Debunked: He likely married her after the vision of Elijah and the sealing power.
Interesting questions left open on this episode:
Was Joseph having a sexual relationship with Fanny Alger or were they just spiritually sealed?
What did happen in the barn that made Emma and Oliver upset?
Was Oliver excommunicated for saying false things about Joseph or was he saying true things that weren’t supposed to be public?
I look forward to the next episode. Thanks for having such an awesome guest on!
Yep! I think that about sums it up.
“Fanny didn’t marry Joseph, they just had an affair.” Debunked: It was seen by Joseph and others as a marriage not as adultery."
LOL. First off: "plural marriage" a.k.a. polygamy a.k.a. bigamy was illegal and was specifically prohibited by the LDS church's book of Doctrine & Covenants Every one of Smith's 30+ "plural marriages" violated the law of the land and of his own church.
Secondly, if that relationship was a legitimate "plural marriage" even according to the Mormon definition of the practice, Joseph wouldn't have been accused of having an illicit affair, and Fanny wouldn't have had to leave Kirtland to escape the scandal. Smith's loyalist Levi Hancock stated that Oliver Cowdery and other church leaders planned to hold a church court to inquire as to the affair, and that Hancock helped Joseph by taking Fanny out of town so that she couldn't testify to the facts. That obviously means that the affair was illicit.
On top of that, the "revelation on celestial marriage" mandates that the "first wife" give her consent to her husband to take a "plural wife". Emma Smith obviously did not consent to her husband's cavorting with Fanny in the barn. If she had, Fanny needn't have left Kirtland.
That affair only began to be cast as Joseph's first plural marriage by church historians decades after the facts, and those historians only call it a plural marriage because the evidence to support it is so well-documented that calling it anything other than a plural marriage is to admit that Joseph committed adultery.
Please correct me if I am wrong here.
What gets really weird, is that in this episode Don is trying to show that this was a marriage not an affair. "seen by Joseph and others as a marriage not as adultery". However, in the recent episode "BOMBSHELL New Discoveries of Nauvoo Polygamy!", he disregards the marriage and doesn't even list her so then he can list the first marriage besides Emma to a woman that was pregnant. He does this so it couldn't be about Sex however, he contradicts himself here because if the first marriage was Fanny then it is?
Feels like that he tries to fix one issue by making a bigger issue in the larger scale of everything.
@@Zez88 Broc, sure, I'll explain. I'm actually not trying to fix any issues. I'm trying to understand what happened and what the motivations were. I believe if you listen to the other video again you'll find that I explain that what we have in Nauvoo is the introduction of a new social system. So, why the introduction of that system? If we look at how that system is initiated, on its own terms, it suggests certain motivations behind the system. I'll lay this all-out much more fully in written form.
Agree. Your summary was spot on. Wish they would have summarized it that clearly
Won’t it be fascinating if we find out on the other side that Fanny asked Joseph into the barn, grabbed onto him and tried to kiss him, etc. and he pushed her away and got after her and that was the “scrape”but to save her reputation, he told that guy (can’t remember his name) to take her somewhere else. She, from what I understand didn’t stay active maybe due to her anger of being scorned but couldn’t ever make Joseph look bad because he has saved her reputation? I truly have no idea but given my life experiences and other people’s experiences, it would NOT surprise me.
There are a lot of ways the actual experience could go. People just want to believe the worst in Joseph. Like Bill Burr said, “Believe women, but (do we have to believe) all of them?” And I’m not quoting that against only women but I use the quote because it’s correct as well, we should want truth in all things, not what we just hope is true.
I personally know family members that went to prison or court for rape. I know them and I know the women pretty well. And my conclusion on all cases is they were all lies. That doesn’t mean rape doesn’t happen. But I think many people underestimate how many women lie about it and ruin men’s lives with false accusations.
I think it is important to remember that Fanny never claims anything. When asked she would say she had nothing to say, even to her own brother. Every detail comes from second and third had hearsay.
Don’s thoughts are deep and brilliant, and his voice is Kip from Napoleon dynamite. Really enjoy it!
The topic at 47:00 - Imagine you were told by God to not tell anyone about something as socially radical as polygamy. Period. Full stop. What would you do? I think I would try to say just about anything else about polygamy EXCEPT "We are practicing polygamy." It is very possible that our current Prophet knows more about the sequence of events leading up to the Second Coming than he has been allowed to talk about. Not saying that's true, just possible. Remembering that no man will know the hour of the Lord's return - If the Prophet were asked a very direct question, might not he obfuscate, if for no other reason than to save us from going off in the wrong direction and making bad personal decisions, and to protect the Church? Higher laws.
I was gonna say, there are children's mystery books from like the 1920s with titles like "The Curious Affair of the Missing Gems"...that word, like so many others, had nothing to do with s3x back then.
Looking forward to this one. Fanny's youngest sister Clarissa is my 3rd great grandma. I always wanted to understand why the whole family was so devout, except for Fanny, despite all the controversies I hear about surrounding Joseph and Fanny. I am excited to get Don's take on it.
It's a doozy! Don tells about his upcoming book and the research he's done. Totally unseen. Totally new stuff. It's amazing.
Brilliant episode, I loved this. Can't get enough Don Bradley! Every episode with him is top-tier content. The best videos on your channel.
I mean a guy that was so bitter for 10 years and after research came back. Just goes to show. The thing that's always sad to see when someone does go is the need to create a RUclips channel and sell their former religion to make money to convince others to go to. Lucky for such, it's not denial of the Holy Spirit, an unpardonable sin, apparently you have to be an Apostle to be eligible for that, maybe even a prophet. Who knows. But a guy that's that bitter, who comes back? And he's an information machine
100% this
Completely agree. Ward radio has by far the most interesting and entertaining LDS content on RUclips, and second place isn’t even close.
@NeoMahi 3 Nephi 29:7 states that saying there can be no miracle and doing it for money is like being a son of perdition for which there is no mercy. You don't have to be a higher up to meet those qualifications. If your like John Dehlin making 250k per year off of other people's doubts you are trapped, there is no backing out.
@@jefferydraper5987 bro JD cannot become a son of perdition. Don’t give him that much credit. He clearly has never received that much light and knowledge.
The Holy Ghost testified to me that Joseph was true to the end. History is entertaining, but not my primary source.
It testified to me that Joseph Smith was not a good man and failed to restore the gospel. That's why the succession crisis happened.
@@michamus I don't think you're using the holy ghost quite right
During all that was going on in Joseph’s life could it be possible that in the case of polygamy Joseph denied it, not out lying to hide what was going on but out of self preservation?
He had been tarred and feathered in 1832 and arrested multiple times. Polygamy would have seen him hanged.
And if you read his denials, they are cagey, not outright
Kwaku is onto something, there are holes all over this story and then they get filled in with pure speculation.
Don addresses that with his sign reading analogy. Did you not pay attention?
There are several journal entries from various members during the time leading up to Joseph being taken to be killed, where they hear Joseph talk about how he knew this was all coming from the moment he made it public about polygamy. I read a journal entry from a young man who had been asked by Joseph to act undercover at one of these meetings, where Members who were conspiring against Joseph we’re trying to whip each other up into anger. And one of the things they would do as they would bring in women who would say that Joseph had slept with them, or had an affair with them, or were doing something dirty with them in regards to polygamy so that it would make everybody upset. And when this boy went to tell Joseph about this meeting, he saw, he said that Joseph wept and talked about how he knew this was coming. That one of the reasons why I had a hard time admitting to polygamy in the beginning was because he knew it meant his death, so yes, polygamy was being practiced kind of behind the scenes for a while before it was made public.
Did they write these experiences in their journals the day it happened or was it many years later?
@@icecreamladydriver1606 most people date their journal entries. You can look them up yourself
Kind of like the Book of Mormon…
not to mention the whole "heavenly mother" thing. That essentially means that mother Mary was a polygamous wife of God. Because Jesus can't be a bastard.
I bought his book, the lost 116 pages. Can’t wait to read more.
I'm loving these episodes! Don is so intellectually honest.
Don is just a don man
Loving ward radio Cardon. And these Don Bradley episodes are amazing.
Thanks, Ali!
Concur!!
@Alibee102 Thanks, Ali!
Maybe this is a dumb question, but could the denial of polygamy from Joseph and Emma be because it was a “sealing” solely done as a “saving ordinance”, and there technically was no “marital” relationship?
That is a very good point. I never thought of that. It isn’t polygamy in the sense that most people would understand it.
It's interesting to me that the church usually avoids the term polygamy and instead uses plural marriage. I personally think in the mind of Joseph Smith and other church leaders back then and even now there was definitely a doctrinal difference between the world's polygamy and the practice of plural marriage that God commanded and the early saints practiced.
I agree with your assessment.
I have often felt that Joseph only had spiritual wives but that he lead the brethren to practice it. It makes sense to me that the one who re-introduced it wouldn't practice it.
Joseph denied practicing spiritual wifery not plural marriage. You will find noting about spiritual wifery in Doctrine and Covenants 132.
@@pfoxworth7 that makes sense since none of his other wives had any pregnancies with him and he only seemed to procreate with Emma.
As to the "lying", there is actually no commandment against it. The commandment in the Decalogue forbids bearing false witness against one's neighbor. When the Gestapo comes to your door to ask you if you are harboring Jews, you _must_ lie and say you're not. And that is the moral and righteous thing to do. Accusing your neighbor of harboring Jews when you know he has no Jews in his attic -- that is false witness and is forbidden by the Decalogue.
So lying is *not* _per se_ a sin.
Wait, so Joseph admits in Oliver’s excommunication trial that the girl business was a secret polygamous marriage, and nobody says a thing about that? They just go about their business as if this massive bombshell was just dropped and then they ignore it? That is major speculation. What this episode convinces me of is that this was neither an affair or a marriage, the word scrape or affair (at the time) indicates some kind of confrontation, not a sexual or marriage relationship. Oliver is caught insinuating that something happened but later is pushed on that and has to admit that he has no first hand knowledge of a relationship. We really need to stop perpetuating the story of Fanny being Joseph’s first plural wife.
This is a great point, Don Bradley, who is great in a lot of ways, was being paid by Bryan hales, who is pushing polygamy. It's not hard to see that even don gets a little bias, and assumes that this is proof. The more deep these "sources" go about proof of polygamy, the more they have to jump to conclusions, and try to assume something
The absence if proof isn't proof at all, and the fact that the scribe wouldn't give an account of polygamy from joseph
According to polygamy deniers, many in the 12 were practicing polygamy behind Joseph's back, in Missouri and kirkland. So the scribes claim about it popping it up in Missouri only supports the deniers claims
Sorry, Brad, love your stuff normally, and no hard feelings
Kwaku, thanks for seeing this as well
Phew I feel soooo much better with this explanatory model! This relieves years of stress cos I have my personal witness of the truthfulness of the First vision. I'm such a skeptic and it's not unreasonable to want to get intellectual answers. Why does the lord allow seeking truth of the church to be so complicated and controversial because of topics such as polygamy, book of Mormon historical untruths, etc etc etc the list goes on
He tests faith.
It's more a matter of our own self-righteousness at the root of the doubt. An extreme example is how the Left has no problem with immorality, as long as they're doing it, but go ballistic when they even suspect Trump said the "p" word, or when anyone from the other party is accused of any wrong doing.
And on that topic there are many conservatives, not to mention people in the church, who actually want us to believe they are so morally upright that they can't tolerate, nor have ever said in private such words. REALLY???? I would bet my last dollar that every person who lost their mind over Trump's p__y comment has used the word themselves at some point in their lives.
But we all like to think we're so clean and pure that we can't follow someone who is a tad less worthy than Jesus Christ. Or that them living a certain way, even though commanded by God - or claiming such - is beneath us, because our own sense of morality must be more correct than anyone else's could possibly be. In other words, we feel we get to decide what is "moral" for God to do, and when someone claims God told them to do something we see as wrong [like Nephi killing Laban] we assert our own opinion of the incident as being unquestionably right, as if we're the final & highest judge of what is moral, because our knowledge and experience is supposedly so extensive, there is nothing and no one who could know more than we do.
There's an interesting thing that happens to a civilization in decline, and I think it's why the Nephites could not repent after apostatizing after Christs visit. And you can see it in society today, especially in those who leave the church: And that is, the more compromised our morality becomes, the more certain we are that our sense of right and wrong are iron clad correct, and no one should dare tell us, or even suggest, otherwise.
We actually feel MORE certain of our own high moral standards as we yield to immorality. This happens to nearly every person who commits adultery: they soon deny the faith [ as D&C says] and then feel like they are too smart & righteous to "fall for" the church's teachings.
Whereas a more genuinely righteous person will have more doubts and humility when it comes to judgement of right and wrong. And such tests have come to the most righteous people. Abraham had to give up his intense opposition to human sacrifice: His own Father had attempted to sacrifice him, and God saved him from the event, yet later commanded him to offer his own son. What a twist, huh? Yet he had the humility to doubt his own opinion, or sense of right & wrong, enough to obey God. But the average person is too sure of themselves to do that. They have a very high opinion of their own sense of right & wrong, and good luck arguing with them. That is why people who sleep around, and see nothing wrong with it, have no problem condemning the church, or Joseph Smith, for supposedly "moral reasons".
Jospeh never followed the rules of polygamy as stated in section 132. It can not be polygamy unless Emma was aware and gave permission. Never in scripture has God permitted a man to take a new wife while lying about it to the first wife.
Brigham also did not follow the requirement that the wives must all be virgins.
Joseph also married pregnant women
Abraham broke a commandment and lied that Sarah was his sister. He also got revelation to sacrifice his son. If he were so smart and righteous, why wouldn't he just question that revelation? Because, prophets are the only ones who can get revelation to do something outside of the commandments.
It brings me joy to see how your subscriber count continues to go up by several hundred people with each video that you release. Your hard work is paying off, Cardon!
I just unsubscribed.
Wow, thank you! You noticed!
@@americanmanstan2381no worries. I subscribed to cover the loss
Mosiah Hancock also wrote in there that Joseph's enemies kidnapped Fanny and locked her in the top rooms of the Kirtland temple. His father and Joseph climb up to the window to save poor Fanny. Then Levi put her on his horse and rode off into the night.
What? Joseph didnt have a key to his own temple? There were no guards? Have you seen how far up it was to those windows?
The story is ridiculous!
That's just crazy!!
.ioi9
.ioi9 j
That’s interesting.
😊
My question on that court case: if the “missing minutes” were a confession of polygamy, and the scribe later left because of polygamy, why did the scribe not leave until years later?
Also, why not look at the other “spiritual wifery” systems Joseph was preaching against in 1838, rather than presume this high council court case is where “polygamy reared it’s head”?
As an aside, Joseph saying Oliver is his bosom friend and confidant doesn’t necessarily imply he would follow with a confession; it could just as well have been “Oliver is my close friend with whom I’ve shared many things; polygamy is not one of those things.”
There’s too much reasonable doubt in my mind to fully accept this timeline; I’m more with Kwaku’s reasoning on this one.
It seems that we leave out the third option, that it was neither Polygamy nor Adultery, but a sealing for the eternities to expand his familial relationships.
That would obviously still be polygamy.
And they were just reading scripture alone in the barn, with Emma sending her away after
@@redfightblueit’s not “obviously” polygamy in the sense of what people normally think of about polygamy.
Certainly, this seemed to apply to many of his relationships. Hard to say if that was the case here.
If you are sealed to someone, it needs to in a type of relationship, like wife, mother, daughter.
Cardon's parody of excitedly saying "but Fanny Alger! But Fanny Alger!" In the intro got me to hit the the thumbs up 😂
Great thought provoking and entertaining content as always. The LDS Rogan show in all the best ways.
The Sealing Keys were given in April 1836 but what was the understanding at the time what "Sealing" meant? I don't think the concept was immediately understood in all of its aspects and dimensions.
What was the understanding at the time of what the word “Salamander” meant? That’s right according to Dallin H Oaks “salamander” also meant a “spirit supposed to live in fire”
SMH 🤦🏽♂️
It's still not understood. It certainly wasn't polygamy.
Bob - very true!
Wow, that came out of nowhere, and in this subject of sealing/marriage discussion has to do with what? @@jamestrek2570
The word "affair" in original French had no negative connotation, except for rather modern use in political context and in even more modern use regarding inappropriate sexual activities.
So in the era examined in the video, it should be translated as "thing" (the original meaning).
We still use the word "scrap" to this day to refer to a fight.
For the word "scrap" the dictionary says, "a fight or quarrel, especially a minor or spontaneous one" and even alludes to it deriving from the older English word "scrape".
Just some thoughts to throw into the pot!
Concealment is not the same as lying, especially in Jewish understanding of what bearing false witness meant. There are many instances in the Bible of acts of concealment being approved by God. Jesus himself told some he healed to tell no man. He told his disciples to keep his identity as Messiah secret because his time has not yet come. He told his disciples he was not going to the passover feast, but then secretly went. Germans would not be sinning to conceal Jews hiding in their homes during WW 2. It's a conplex subject.
meant complex subject
Keeping a secret is concealment. A straightforward public denial is not concealment and especially not when you give your wife and co-president the platform to do the same.
As I indicated, it's complex. Honesty js always the ideal, but there are situations in which public denial serves a greater good of safety and protection, as in the case of Abraham saying Sarah was his sister. Polygamy was such a situation. The Hebrew midwives lied about the birth of their children to protect them from the Pharoah's edict to kill all the firstborn sons. This act caused God to look kindly upon them. (Exodus 1:15-22). God told Samuel to only disclose a partial truth (1 Samuel 16:1-2). Nephi concealed his identity and pretended to be Laban in order to get the brass plates. Joseph concealed the gold plates. Also, read Alma 12:9 about not sharing everything one knows, but to impart only as commanded. The argument is that Joseph disclosed only as permitted by God.
@@lemjwp1756 but actively fighting against it? People were being excommunicated and disfellowshipped over it. General conference held in 1844 made it clear: “Anyone who teaches the damn fool doctrine” would be curt off from the church…”None but a fool teaches such stuff. The devil himself is not such a fool…I wish the elders of Israel to know that it is lawful for a man to have one wife but it is unlawful for a man to have more, and God has NOT commanded ANYONE to have more.”
Bingo. Yes. There are good reasons to keep some things secret. Especially if innocent lives are at stake.
This is so difficult to listen to! Don Bradley has a vault of new information and the amount of joking is ridiculous and stops the flow of the conversation! I’m not sure if these guys understand how terrible it is?!
I agree. It's not just this show, it's a modern problem. People can't have a serious conversation any more.
I think there were a couple spots where it flustered Don too. Most of the time, the jokes and fun are great, but this is one of those times where we all need to shut up and let Don go!!!
Very interesting discussion! Keep up the good word!
When I was growing up "scrape" meant an argument or fight. Affair was an event. And could be pleasant or unpleasant.
Yea, anything that requires an ounce of research us anathema to the AntiLDSs. They'll go on believing what they want.
That explanation just before
35:46
Is sweeping aside the fact that polygamy was also already being spoken of as recorded in what is now the D&C, as occurring in the church in some way.
Seems we don't know if this was something received to man from God at this point, but it seems more likely that some may be either taking it upon themselves, or lived by that in a cultural way and had joined the church already in that status. Unknown, right?
Well, the letter to the newspaper from the secretary to that meeting, aforementioned, could be responding to one, both, or all.
One could be Joseph and the Unknown of what he had said in the meeting. Both could be both Joseph and the regular population of the church at that time, and all could be any reference to polygamy by that point in time.
This to me is still very vague and to connect these dots in any sort of definitive manner is misleading.
I do like to point out, about the reference to Jacob in the Book of Mormon, it would have introduced polygamy to be spoken of by church members, prior to 1835. When was the BoM completely written out exactly?
It's a factor that needs to be considered.
I think a discussion on how long Joseph fought against the revelation of his practice of plural marriage would be very appropriate.
Also, may we each tread lightly on our judgment of Emma Smith. NO man or woman on this earth as any standing to judge her!
I personally have always had great respect for Emma. She suffered SO MUCH!!! Can anyone blame her for not wanting to share bed space with her husband. Those weren't biblical times so it was very unheard of and she felt she had been cheated on. I would have seen it that way too, that's just natural. I'm still guessing he was never with them physically because he respected his real wife.
SO JOSEPH SAYS....AGAIN.
SHE WAS CHEATED ON. SHE WAS LIED TO. SHE WAS DECEIVED...by her adulterous, philandering, false prophet "husband." @@StompMom5
"I think a discussion on how long Joseph fought against the revelation of his practice of plural marriage would be very appropriate."
LOL. Yeah, Joseph fought so hard against implementing polygamy that he only took somewhere between 33 and 48 plural wives in about six years.
Why, if he hadn't fought so hard against it, he might have run that number of wimmens into triple digits!
This was published by Smith's former close aide, Joseph H. Jackson, shortly before Smith's death:
As I have mentioned the subject of spiritual wives, I will in this place, give the reader some idea of the system. The doctrine is called the "spirit of Elijah," and is kept a profound secret from the people at large, and is only permitted to be known to those, to whom it is given to know the "fullness of the kingdom," in other words, the choice spirits who surround Joe, and aid in carrying his secret measures. The doctrine is found on the 3d Chapter of Hosea, -- several passages from the writings of Solomon and David, and the passage "whatsoever ye bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven." From these scripture passages, (with which I am not sufficiently familiar to quote) aided by revelation from Joe, as respects their meaning and construction, the doctrine is derived that there is no harm in a man having more wives than one, provided his extra wives are married to him spiritually. A spiritual wife is a woman, who by revelation is bound up to a man, in body parts and passions, both for this life and for all eternity; whereas the union of a carnal wife and her husband ceases at death. Whenever the scripture forbids a man from taking to himself more wives than one, Joe made it refer to carnal and not spiritual wives; and would frequently quote the writings of David and Solomon to prove his position. Having an explanation of the doctrine, let us see the application. Joe had in his employ certain old women, called "Mothers in Israel," such as Mrs. Tailor, old Madam Durfee, and old Madam Sessions, in whom the people have great confidence, but in fact, they are the most depraved hypocrits on Earth. If Joe wishes to make a spiritual wife of a certain young lady, he would send one of these women to her. The old women, would tell the young lady, that she had had a vision, in which it was revealed to her that she was to be sealed up to Joe, (or his friend as the case might be) as a spiritual wife, to be his in time and eternity. This would astonish the young innocent, but scripture would soon be resorted to, to prove the correctness of the doctrine, and that it was proper in the sight of the Lord. Soon after this Joe would appear, and tell the lady that the Lord had revealed to him that Mrs. so & so, had had a vision concerning her, and had been to see her. Not suspecting any collusion the young lady would be astonished, and being strong in the faith, she could have no doubt but that Joe spoke by authority of God, He would then ply his arguments, and with the utmost sanctity speak "in the name of the Lord" and say that at such a time, and at such a place it had been revealed to him that she should be his or his friend's, in time and eternity. If she objected he would quote his scripture and his revelations, and thus by playing on her superstitious credulity, and artfully at the same time inflaming her passions he seldom failed of his object. Being once successful, he held the fear of exposure over her as a rod to prevent rebellion from his allegiance. When, as happened in the cases of Miss Martha Brotherton and Miss Nancy Rigdon, his overtures were rejected with disdain and exposure threatened he would set a hundred hell hounds on them, to destroy their reputations. This was a specimen of the mode and manner of Joe in carrying his vile measures of seduction. To the truth of what I have here said, there are hundreds who can testify, and I have no doubt would do it, if they could be protected from the revenge of the hellish clan, which still exists in Nauvoo. The extent to which this abomination was carried may be imagined from the fact that Joe Smith boasted to me, that he in this manner from the commencement of his career had seduced 400 women.
Absolutely correct. What an amazing woman. She suffered so much further cause. She was always true to Joseph.
First episode ever listening to you guys. Loved it! Very helpful
I don’t think Joseph much liked the idea of Polygamy anymore than Cowdery. Seems like this was a difficult point in history for him and the Church and they were struggling to make sense and workout what was a “radical” revelation that was sure to put a large amount of pressure on them regardless of how it was unveiled.
Completely agree. Hard for us to judge when we don't have all the details nor know all of God's will. Joseph and Oliver were both great yet imperfect men who sacrificed much for what we have today.
Joseph Smith was a "Chad". No need to apologize for women being attracted to him.
Remember, "never let your enemies use your values against you".
He was a pedophile
Kwaku's challenge as answered by a FB Hemlock Knots commenter (Dangman's Notes):
Don's explanation of the original D&C 101 (CI) is ridiculous. The church had been reproached with the crimes of fornication and polygamy because of Joseph actually committing the crime of polygamy by marrying Fanny? So they add Section CI to lie about the beliefs of the church.
Don says his interest is truth before interpretation, but his version of truth is just his interpretation.
The evidence he gives of Joseph marrying Fanny is that he says he has trusted Oliver with many things? There were many more charges in that high council than just the girl business and it is true generally that Joseph had trusted Oliver with many things. That statement provides absolutely no evidence for polygamy.
After Joseph died Oliver found out that the Brighamites were polygamist and was surprised and wrote a disgusted letter to his sister to find out if it was true. If he had heard of it back with Fanny why is it so surprising at that point?
A better explanation for how the church had been reproached with fornication and polygamy is on record of the mission of Samuel Smith to New England. They had been teaching and staying around Cochranites and other people were shunning them and the church because of it, and people started linking their teachings with those of the Cochranites.
41:00 Don's dismissal of what Kwaku is saying is also ridiculous. If this scribe has some dirt about polygamy he would have shared it. Looking at a primary source is completely irrelevant. This would have been told if it had happened. All Don is doing is making bad inferences.
44:09 - Don gives a huge load of BS that Joseph didn't share his first vision with his own family. He quotes JSH 1:20 as evidence that Joseph kept knowledge from others. I will show you what a good historical inference looks like right now. From the text given in JSH 1 it can be clearly inferred that Joseph told his mother what happened and that the line about Presbyterianism is just a short way of describing that he told his mother. Don should read verses 21-26 where Joseph describes that a few days after his vision, he told a local preacher about his vision and Joseph describes the aftermath of his telling the story. According to Don, Joseph has kept this esoteric story from his own mother but shared it with a local preacher. (
The Cope is strong! The Envy! Don Bradley don't got no time for weak haters!
@@WARDRADIO You swing and miss all of the time. I love Don and have had positive feelings towards him for years since interacting with him on the old MD&D board. I am also much larger and stronger than you. And have no envy and am coping with nothing.
Dangman's notes absolutely show that Don was wrong when he said "full stop", Joseph didn't tell his parents about the vision. The notes also point out logical problems and historical inconsistencies with Don's inferences.
Is that not the challenge put forth in your own show? Why then insult someone who brings you the results of the challenge?
It never happened! Rumor Rumor.
They point at Eliza R. Snow's list but she didnt know about plural marriage until she moved to Nauvoo, she's just giving a list of maybes.
Spoken like someone who knows absolutely nothing about this topic. I suggest that you read Richard van Wagoner's "Mormon Polygamy: A History" or Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives Of Joseph Smith".
@@randyjordan5521
I'm only quoting Eliza's own life sketch.
These history writers rewrite history to their own agendas. They grab a partial story from one person and stick it to some other peice of false info and then draw conclusions.
The men in that council room for Oliver's excommunicate, which included my husband great great grandfather, did not know about plural marriage. Just because it says Joseph told them about the girl's business it doesnt equal plural marriage. That's reading into it more than what is there. Maybe Fanny had a girlish crush on Joseph maybe she came on to him. Theres some reason she got out of town fast. And her living with the Webbs, that came from Eliza Webb the 19th wife of Brigham Young, but really the 50th I guess. She ran all over the place with her stories but she wasnt even born until after Joseph died. She never met any of them. If you had to prove it in court, you couldn't. All the info is late second and third hand. These historians should be ashamed of themselves.
@@NancyBrown-xw8hg Again---Eliza R. Snow is only ONE of NUMEROUS sources of info about the Fanny Alger affair. Those multiple sources are the very reason that credible historians list Fanny as Joseph's first plural wife. That is how historians work: they piece together various sources to tell the complete story of incidents.
The men in that council did not know about "plural marriage" because no such thing existed at that time. The incident was nothing more than the skirt-chasing Joseph Smith getting frisky with a 16 year old servant girl in a barn, and getting caught. That is exactly why Oliver Cowdery called it a "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape".
If you believe that the 16 year old Fanny "came on to" Joseph, you are really demonstrating the level of your naivete. Are you not aware that Smith plural married three other girls who were younger than Fanny? Are you not aware that Lucinda Morgan Harris told Sarah Pratt that she had been Smith's "mistress" since 1838, which was just a couple of years after the Fanny incident?
The Fanny affair was the reason why Oliver Cowdery inserted the "Article on Marriage" into the 1835 D&C---BECAUSE "this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy." Cowdery didn't come up with that out of the blue and for no reason. He was well aware of Joseph's tryst with Fanny. That is the very reason he and other church leaders placed Fanny in an upper room of the temple while they sought out Joseph to confront him. And that is why Levi Hancock took Fanny out of town, to keep her from testifying about the affair. That is why Fanny left the church and married a non-Mormon just months later. And that is why one of the charges against Cowdery in his own later church court was that he had accused Smith of adultery.
After Smith got rid of Cowdery, and moved to Nauvoo, he "plural married" more than 30 other women before his death. So your attempt to deny his affair with one girl, Fanny, is laughably naive.
Oliver Cowdery had a blessed life but he also is one of the greatest fools in history. Almost to the point of being a fool like Judas. Ignoring everything that Oliver has seen up to 1836 if one looks as the events at the Kirkland Temple on April 3, 1836, Oliver was present with Joseph Smith to witness one of the greatest events in human history. That being seeing Christ, Moses, Elias (either Noah or Abraham) and Elijah at the temple at the same event. They did not come because Oliver was in the Temple. They came because of what Joseph Smith had been able to do and Joseph was there. Oliver knows this and should always know and remember this. Joseph Smith is important. Far more important than any other human being that had lived on the earth in the last 1500 years or more. He is far more important than any human being living today. What man today can say they have seen either Moses, Jesus, Abraham or Noah, and Elijah let alone all together on the same day? None because no man today is important enough for any of them to come visit. Joseph Smith is relevant to them. You are not nearly as relevant and that is why they are not coming to see you.
So Oliver has seen these facts yet he so quickly dumps on Joseph when Joseph does something that Oliver does not approve of. He should have been smart to ask Joseph why he did what he did for his learning, not criticism. If Jesus, Moses, and the rest had the confidence enough in Joseph, Oliver should have had the confidence in Joseph decision making process as well. So to go from the experience of the Kirkland Temple to where Oliver went little later was boldly foolish. Joseph was simply operating as level far above than Oliver could ever achieve in his life and he should have trusted Joseph decisions even if he did not understand them.
Joseph Smith is fundamentally different than everyone else. Yes any other man who did what Joseph did it would be easy for that man to criticize. However when one is at the position like Joseph was at, if he is doing something we don't like or approve, is the problem with Joseph Smith or us? What are we missing that Joseph is seeing.
As a LDS person, I will take any criticism from Joseph Smith from anyone. BUT I will only take those criticisms seriously from people who have lived a life relevant enough that Moses, Elijah, and Jesus saw the need to appear to these people. Until then, I generally default to the decisions of a man who was life was that relevant that such things could happen.
If Joseph had committed adultery why would Heavenly Father keep him as his prophet? Joseph was certainly chastised for loosing the manuscript pages how would he let adultery just slide?
Carthage Jail???
@@krismurphy7711 God didn't send Joseph to jail, the anti Mormons did. Joseph's mother was given revaluation that he allowed Joseph to be killed so he could rest. He had been tortured in every way possible and had been through enough. Trust me, he didn't marry lookers. I've seen pictures of his "wives" and it seems he wasn't looking to get lucky. You being so full of hatred to make believe what doesn't exist must be exhausting
BINGO!! He wouldn't👌
@@StompMom5 preach it sister!
The Prophet was martyred 1844 so Murphy you are saying God didn’t punish him for ten years? Meanwhile giving Joseph more revelations and using him to build the church as we know it? That was a very weak troll you tried to pull.
Guys Joseph Smith said he was not practicing polygamy. He never practiced polygamy. That is and was illegal. He practiced Plural marriage. They are not the same. Plural marriage is and was legal in accordance to he First Amendment., until the US government altered the meaning in late1800s. Today it is legal again. Mormons need to stop using Polygamy and Plural marriage as if they are the same concept. It makes Joseph look like a liar.
Can you expound on this a little. It’s very interesting. What is the difference between the two?
@@griffinarnold8772 This issue involves the concept of the separation of church and state. Under the 10th Amendment unless given specific power the Federal government must accept the laws of states in regards to civil rights and privileges. Marriage laws are under state jurisdiction. Polygamy is the act of registering marriages of one party to several individuals. It is a secular concept. It is under state domain. It is illegal in every state. Plural marriage is a religious institution. It is protected therefore by the First Amendment. The "Freedom of Religion" So long as participants do not register their plural marriages in a State or Federal courtroom, involving secular law, they are not committing polygamy. Hence Joseph Smith and other Mormons were not practicing polygamy, as their marriages were not registered in secular courtrooms. Today Muslims are practicing Plural marriage in the US without prosecution as they do not register their marriages in courtrooms. Thus no state can legally dictate marriage practices, especially religious ones, outside the authority of their powers. Hope this helps.
lol didn’t follow you there
@@michaelparks5669great insight thank you
@@KlydetheGlyde You are welcome.
As I've looked into polygamy more closely I don't even know why, we as members of the church, take the account of Fanny Alger seriously at all. The evidence that they were sealed is very very scant.
Oliver Cowdery...
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Just rumors, from second hand people, saying that Oliver Cowdery said.... Such and such a thing. When Joseph confronted Cowdery about the rumor Cowdery denied it and refuted it. Cheers.😁
@@SethKellerArt Cowdery said he had discussed with Smith the “dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger’s … in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself.” January 21, 1838, in Oliver's own words to his brother, Warren.
That darn Oliver! Debunkin' the debunkin'!
@@rodneyjamesmcguire The word used is actually scrape, in the place of affair. So right away you are being disingenuous.
We don't know what Oliver might be referring to in this letter. But he is insinuating. That is to say, he doesn't know, but is trying to make Joseph look bad. The evidence from primary sources that Fanny and Joseph were ever married remains scant and based entirely on second or even third hand sources.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Oliver's letter is not much for me. If the affair was so blatant why did he write it one time in a letter to his brother and then never mention it again. And why was he so vague about it? Why didn't he just come out and say it. He is alluding to something he disagrees with, but never says what it is, why didn't he just say it? If the letter was ever written in the first place, where is it?
…Really digging these Don Bradley episodes.
55:00 "Polygamy" is a BS excuse for ADULTERY. There is no basis to believe that there was ANY LEGITIMATE BASIS FOR POLYGAMY. We have to TRUST JOSEPH SMITH....that HE WAS TOLD TO PRACTICE IT. Angel with a Flaming Sword is a hell of a story.
Polygamy is not adultery. Adultery is having sexual relations with someone they are not married to. By definition, if a man has sex with his wives, he is not committing adultery with them. Though I don't believe Joseph had sex with any of his polygamist wives besides Emma.
@@shootergavin3541 Polygamy was a false doctrine, and probably a giant lie. Thus it was adultery.
17:50 LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT.... On one hand, is a previous Episode, Don cites a 40 YEARS AFTER THE FACT COLUMN (Fayette Lapham) to boost his argument about Masonic symbols actually being include with/in the Book of Mormon....BUT NOW McClellin's retelling is discarded for being 20 years after the fact??? Don can use a quote from Joseph Sr but The World can't use a quote from Emma???
I don't discard McLellin's account at all. In fact, I use it heavily in what I've written on the subject.
@onandagus1 HELL YEAH! TELL 'EM! I didn't know you had a youtube account man. I gotta tell you how absolutely wonderful your work has been for me. I'm excited for your new book. I appreciate you good sir 🙏
I think the buffet difference is the McClellan heard a rumor 20 years ago. He wasn't there. It was just something he heard.
@@loudogg73 Is McClellan a good buffet?
@@onandagus1 Your book is amazing. I devoured it in a few hours in a single evening, faster than any book I've ever read of a similar size. Please keep up the good work.
Jesus did say to agree with thine adversary while in their way, so, they won’t throw you in jail. It is a possibility he did lie, but, spiritual wifery sealing without consummation works also. He was sealed to men and older women. Interesting topic. I’m ok either way, at this point.
This was a matter of life and death. It’s easy to sit here in 2023 in an air conditioned home watching Disney plus while stuffing our fat mouths with junk food claiming lying about plural marriage was wrong and cowardly. Joseph knew openly practice it would result in more Saints being murdered. It’s the correct choice in the circumstances.
What were things in for Joseph Smith? Tarring and feathering, lots of jail time and trials and releases, up until his murder.
What's in it for someone who has an affair..they could get caught and be divorced and lose half their house and pension. But when someone's chasing tail they aren't thinking about that and they assume they won't be caught out.
Transparency and correct timelines. So good. Thank you for this episode!
1:05:20 interesting thought. I believe (my own personal belief no one has to share, im gonna need everyone to get all the way off my back on this) it would fit with the character of Joseph, to receive some light and knowledge and IMMEDIATELY try to engage with it or use it. The baptism, the receiving if the aaronic and melchizedek priesthood, the temple endowment. Who in their right mind wouldn't be absolutely churning with anxious desire to fulfill and use their newfound keys of priesthood, that the earth hasn't seen in many many years? If it was me I'd be chompin at the bit to blow through all of em like freaking merit badges, ya'know?
Problem is, all of those claims of receiving priesthood authority from divine beings were invented AFTER Joseph published his book and founded his church.
I doubt you’d go for it with a 14 year old.
Hilarious but you are probably spot on
Worst case scenario, Joseph committed adultery with an underage girl.
But even if this was true, historically, many prophets have done just as terrible things from our modern perspective. Joshua offed men, women and children. Most Book of Mormon prophets fought and killed in wars. David committed adultery, but we know that was not his most grievous sin, it was killing Uriah.
I just think that God doesn't judge in the same way mortals do.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!! If God is going to let his Prophet off on Adultery with a Young Girl Joseph had power and control over.....WE ALL ARE IN THE CLEAR!!! GO AND SIN ALL THE MORE!!!!!
Regardless, whatever Joseph Smith did or didn't do is Joseph Smith's problem. I am only responsible for what I do and what I know.
Anyway, good comment.
But the difference between those Biblical characters and what Joseph Smith did is that Smith claimed that his misdeeds were the product of a "revelation from God."
If it was a revelation from God, it would be just and holy.
It obviously wasn't. The Church in 1890 strongly denounced it. And since the Beginnings of The Rumors about it, IT HAS DAMAGED THE CHURCH...AS IT IS RIGHT NOW in 2023!! Do you really think Jesus is that dumb...to put in place an unnecessary policy, against the Lat in Illinois, that would hinder HIS CHURCH FOREVER???@@fightingfortruth9806
This is really interesting. Facts don't fit the Anti's narrative. That's because the Anti's are hateful. Maybe they should be more open minded and Christ like and not so judgmental. I love this discussion. The more I understand early church history the more I appreciate and know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Great stuff.
Umm probably half of "antis" agree it was a marriage. Many undecided. Doesn't change any of the problems that she was the housekeeper, and treated like a daughter, for a while
Amen! This shows that our history as a church is messy, but still Godly led and inspired
Couple things
1)Algers were supporters of Smiths since New York. They moved with them. She wasn’t a servant girl, she was helping with their home because of the emotional strain on Emma.
2)Fanny Alger in relation to Joseph is not the same Fanny Alger that was married in Indiana. There is no proof of that. The real story there is being missed.
3) Joseph extended his spiritual family relationships with sealings to build alliances. With regards to Fanny he never claimed to be perfect. Maybe the issue is the way we view polygamy was shaped by rumors and BY, and not Josephs policy- To determine that we would need to understand his intent and we don’t know that. It’s clear they were sealed.
4) The other person in Joseph’s house was Oliver. Ask yourself what Oliver’s opposition and the conflict between he and Joseph was fueled by.
I’m with kwaku - I think this idea of “carefully worded denials” is bunk and a convenient way to ignore that actual historical record to ensure it aligns with a particular narrative.
It would be more honest if people like Hales et al simply said “yeah JS always denied it publicly and we don’t understand why.”
It was a matter of life and death. Publicly denying saved Saints from being murdered. It’s pretty simple.
@@michaelhutchings6602 I highly doubt that. Brigham Young and apostles started living polygamy more openly and having children in late 1844. In Nauvoo. Two years before they left. Why weren't they murdered? Strung up? Most people say that Carthage was a result of destroying the Expositor printing press and declaring martial law in Nauvoo.
@@michaelhutchings6602 disagree. You have to take that position because the historical record doesn’t support your position. What evidence do you have? None.
I believe Joseph and Emma, and whatever BY implemented we will find out one day.
@@Heartsinmelodyto imply this is to say our beliefs are wrong. i’m gonna go with michael. to publicly acknowledge plural marriage meant death. what do you think the nauvoo expositor was about? antis trying to “expose” our teachings on exaltation and celestial marriage. all love brother
@@mongomaddy I believe your premise is flawed.
I know I'm late to the party, but in French, the word 'affaire' means business. Kinda leans in to the 'something to be done' meaning of the word at the time period.
My biggest question for Don Bradley is - Why wasn’t Emma the first person Joseph sealed himself to?
I’m just curious. Did he already feel they were sealed because of their marriage? Did she have any objections to being sealed?
The sealing to Emma is a huge problem, and it occurs during Hyrum's second marriage which also presents huge problems for polygamy deniers, because the need to seal fits Joseph practicing polygamy.
We need to cut these guys some slack. Their lives were crazy and they are just trying to keep God's commandments without a handbook nor a cozy office to ponder in. I agree he probably felt like he was already eternally committed to Emma. He probably corrected all thec sealings in Nauvoo. Or maybe not. Again I give them a lot of grace on this.
As Joe talked to god …… right
I really appreciate Don Bradley's research. Realizing a few days ago that I am related to Fanny Alger, brings this closer to home for me. And gives me sympathy. Her younger sister is my 3rd great grandmother. Good family. I always said Al-jer as I read their names in my head on Family Tree, and my dad, being from Parowan, always said Al-jer. He may have known some distant Alger cousins there. But I'll say Al-gur now, if it's the proper way. Thanks for the research. Only a few years ago, I heard about this 15 year old house maid who allegedly had an affair with Joseph. I didn't believe it, but still it was disturbing. Now I hear that she was his first plural wife and she was closer to 18, being born in 1816. It makes sense that he chose her because perhaps Emma may have gotten along with her at the time. Her uncle Levi Hancock (my 5th great uncle) got permission from her parents and from her for the marriage.
Are you related to Max Alger from Parowan, that just passed away? We the Stucki’s were good friends with them and my dad built a home near them.
Or it was a nothing rumor or . . .. it was one sided on Fanny's part and she got turned out because she was being inappropriate. All of those other narratives are available to us.
It is amazing the stories we spin when we try to make polygamy fit. Kwaku nailed it at 39:22. Some pretty heavy assumption to make.
Young women have a flirty innocence to the ways of things and I can see an older mancrush on Joseph also. This is s intriguing! If she made a pass at Joseph with indecency involved, that would be dirty rotten also, but, the other way around with Joseph flirting more than Emma was comfortable with would also fit. If she or he were inappropriate with each other, the meeting notes would probably be missing either way. Restorationists in the area were strong believers in multiple wives, and some probably joined the church. If Brigham inspired the practice or Joseph, it fit the narrative used in BOM to build up Gods kingdom and to take care of widows etc. stay with us Kwaku! Back then women wanted a man who could take care of them and many may have seen the cesspool of Warsaw men and willingly chose to be a multi-wife participant to a man of God. Men are not so innocent in there hormonal enticings either, even men of God have to be vigilant.
@@silvereagle1717 I mean Joseph Smith was a looker. One other parallel is the Elvis Presley story. Many women claim to have been his paramour and denied most of them, but there's some strange circumstantial evidence that said he was lying, and other evidence that keeps him clean. So that option has to be open to us.
@@PeterBrownscouts I think I see that with a certain Presidential candidate in todays climate with accusations from women to destroy a man. That parallel is now very intriguing. There are women who will spin that tale today. Why not back then? Good point.
Where in the book of Mormon does it say that God uses polygamy to build up his kingdom or take care of widows?
Don, I'm interested in how you would describe the difference between an affair and a polygamous relationship. Obviously there is the implication of God's command or prohibition, approval or disapproval, and as well, the approval or disapproval of those members of the church that are in harmony with God's opinion here. And these are important distinctions.
I wonder about other differences. For example, with a marriage I have an expectation of faithfulness to the relationship, by which I'm also including time spent, effort given into the relationship, and perhaps lifetime or eternal maintenance of the relationship. Not necessarily so with an affair. I'm sorry, I'm only a third of the way in to the interview so far, but I would like to know what kind of relationship Fanny Alger and Joseph Smith had and maintained. You've mentioned Fanny Alger married and lived with a non-Mormon in ... 1836? IIRC. Was there any relationship between FA and JS after this?
Was there financial support given to Fanny Alger? Did she have any legal or informal claim to the money or time of Joseph Smith?
Was there any record of a divorce before (or after) she remarried?
Hey Bryant! None of the usual accompaniments of a legal marriage went along with Joseph Smith's polygamous relationship with Fanny Alger.
"Don, I'm interested in how you would describe the difference between an affair and a polygamous relationship."
Well, considering that polygamy was against the law of the land and was specifically prohibited by the LDS church's book of Doctrine & Covenants, and Joseph Smith quoted that text in his denial of teaching or practicing polygamy---
---then maybe that will help you decide whether Smith's relationships with other women were affairs or "plural marriages".
@@randyjordan5521 Good questions. Some factors I would consider are: Were the people involved intending to enter a marriage? Did they view it as a marriage? Was there some sort of ceremony? In two chapters I've submitted for publication in 2024-2025 I'll show that the answer to all these questions is yes.
@@onandagus1 No Mormon "plural marriage," at any time, was ever a legal marriage. No marriage licenses were ever applied for, and none were granted. That is because it is illegal to be married to more than one person.
Case in point: When Ann Eliza Webb divorced Brigham Young and sued for alimony, Young's lawyer argued in court that their relationship was merely "an ecclesiastical matter, not a legal one." The judge agreed, and denied Ann alimony.
Brigham Young also taught that if a woman wanted to leave her husband for man holding a higher priesthood, she could do so "without a bill of divorcement." Meaning, Mormon polygamy was really just a huge wife-swapping sect, with the highest-ranking leaders getting the most desirable women. That is how Young got 56 "wives."
Also, Emma Smith definitely did not see her husband's relationships with other women as real marriages, because Emma threw those women out of her house as soon as she suspected that the ceremonies were more than just "spiritual."
@@randyjordan5521 Randy, that these weren't legal marriages is something everyone agrees on.
definition from Oxford for scrape: an embarrassing or difficult predicament caused by one's own unwise behavior.
Considering that one of the charges against Oliver Cowdery in his 1838 church court was that he had accused Joseph Smith of committing adultery, then his words "dirty, nasty, filthy scrape" obviously referred to his tryst with Fanny Alger.
I doubt that Cowdery was talking about Smith falling in the mud and getting his clothes dirty.
Is that in the comtext of the 1800s use of the word? Vernacular changes over time
So, let me see if I've got this figured out correctly, Donny Osmond is Mormon?
43:54ish "Wouldn't it be great if they just explained things in some detail..." I feel that way about the New Testament. A lot.
I'm in Utah for a wedding, it's an awesome place. "In the last days the mountain of the LORD's house will be established at the top of the mountains and will be raised above the hills."
Oh yeah!!!
Utah is the true Garden of Eden.
Plural Marriage Wedding?
@@krismurphy7711 Yes, there is one dude in a tux and four women in white gowns. This will be quite the honeymoon let me tell you!!!!
Dump the whole 'I hate Mormons thing'
I don't know how you can come here and not feel how much God loves this place. He set it apart for his one true Church. They were kicked out of the United States while being shot at by cannons. That is as low as a people can get. But not only did they survive, they flourished and built one of the coolest places in the whole world. Even when the Army came to destroy them God sent a blizzard to protect them. Seagulls to defend their crops. Water when they needed it, sunshine when they needed it. We certainly are a blessed people.
If Fanny stole from the Smiths like someone mentioned, that is a dirty nasty scrape also.
Oliver's letter clearly accuses *Joseph* of wrong doing in the incident. And we have several other documents that indicate a relationship he had with Fanny, including the minutes of Oliver's excommunication trial. So, no, accusing Fanny of stealing from the Smith's explains absolutely nothing.
So you think that Fanny stole something, and Joseph took her in the barn all alone to give her a spanking?
More Don Bradley!
Love how Cardon's rules for anti-Mormons keeps getting longer and longer, it's up to 30 now 😂
Great episode, thank you Don!
Operative Word? "Cardon" Cardon is an actor...entertainer...his schtick is to be the bombastic loud mouthed interrupting fool that you see. You know what I'm saying?
A fool? Coming from Kris Murphy, that's a heckuva thing to say.
@@krismurphy7711 this is cardon… lol. I’ll take the comment :)
@@krismurphy7711 I meant “compliment”.
How does one get access to these 1500 sources about Joseph Smith and polygamy not in book format.
@jacobsamuelson3181 Jacob, Google the Mormon polygamy documents website
Great Show!🎉
Thank you Silver Eagle!
To assume all those who’ve left the church are angry and depressed is pretty messed up. This is why I have no desire to come back. The judgements, condemnation, and the “we’re better than you” mocking attitudes are so toxic.
That's how some of these guys feel and think... they don't represent everyone obviously
The image you used for Fanny Alger (Katy Perry?) is just awful. Why use a sexually provocative image of a woman to depict a teenage girl?
I thought the same thing. I love you guys and your channel, but that was a bit raunchy. Might want to clean it up just a bit next time.
They were making fun of the way she is portrayed by anti-Mormons.
The image fits "dirty...filthy....nasty"
@@krismurphy7711 Geeze. Dude, life is too short for you to waste it on hate. Love your enemies, forgive them, be happy.
It kind of drives me crazy that Fannie's last name is pronounced Al-Ger with the G sounding like it does in "German". My wife's family pronounces it All-Ger as in the word "Gerber". My wife's grandmother is an Alger. Seems they would know how to pronounce it.
The thumbnail got me thinking I was on a sinning website
Fanny and Joseph in The Barn was.
I don't find the fact she later on married to be evidence there was no polygamous marriage. A lot of his wives were already married, were married after their sealings and things of that nature. The point that I think should everlastingly go to Joseph's moral credit is Fanny had every opportunity to throw him under the bus - she would have been lauded and believed - but she never did. She declined to comment.
I can usually understand what is being said. But the voices seem somewhat muffled. I do not have this problem with other RUclips channels. With all those audio switches that Cardon has, cannot he clear up the voices on the videos?
I wonder if Cardin's mic is too high? Or if somehow he could compress the volume so you don't have to turn it down when he gets excited and starts yelling into his mic
What does it say that When you leave the church you start looking more like jesus, when you go back to church you start looking like a 1950s G-Man.
Beating false witness means to accuse someone of something they didn’t do. Joseph being vague or denying his practice of polygamy is not bearing false witness.
"dirty...filthy...nasty" is not nothing.
@@krismurphy7711 Who said it was nothing? I’m just correcting a definition.
Look at Ezra Hayes. Among the first Elders disciplined for teaching false teachings, and Freeman for polygamy and I think that was 1835 or earlier.
Does the thumbnail you chose imply Fanny was Joseph’s teenage dream?
I think that the thumbnail implies that Katy Perry was a very good looking woman lying in a pile of hay.
No, Cardon's. After his wife, of course
@@randyjordan5521 damn, who’d a thought?
I love to listen to Don, so nuch knowledge.
Have you done any research on how the word 'affair' was used only in business issues.... ? I found many... do that... and I believe for this reason that they used the word because Fanny stole from the Smith home and was caught and her father was there for that reason..... sad that people don't go deep enough to get the real story
Theft would be a dirty nasty scrape also. Thanks! Living with someone and stealing from them would be bad, especially back then.
No. You only go deep enough till it somewhat justifies JS. Good one though… dirty nasty filthy BUSINESS. LOL
That would make just as much sense for what happened after as an affair in today's terms.
The fact that Joseph is still being attacked after nearly two years ... defines how deep they have gone.... it is now being exposed for what it was... the researchers finding the truth aren't paid by the church..... try their research..@@jamestrek2570
It wasn't used only regarding business issues. Webster said it was a word of very "general signification" - it could be used to apply to anything. Also, Oliver didn't use this word at all. His nephew his replaced his actual word with the word "affair." So the word affair is irrelevant to what he meant. Also, many early sources say Joseph had a relationship with Fanny; literally NONE say she stole from him.
I can painfully swallow that polygamy was being kept secret except when it comes to Emma. That's the toughest one for me. He somehow thought he could keep a secret marriage and possible pregnancy secret from Emma??? Mind you this is the guy that couldn't continue translating the plates until he reconciled with Emma over an issue they had.
I LOVED THIS episode. It is so important that we talk about these things and this historian has blessed my life. I am so grateful to know that we just simply don't know. I just remember trying to defend this topic in the buckle of the bible belt and feeling like the narrative just fell flat!
Also, what I have found sent me into some seriously dark times. I did overcome it with revelation and I really just love that you guys are doing this. I wish i had this a decade ago!
The problem with podcasts and this form of investigation is that 95% of it is fluff and you walk away with like 2-3 semi good facts to latch on to. Plus, Don spends 1/2 his time just psycho analyzing other historians in a way that discredits them for theoretical biases that he can neither prove and isn’t even specific in his argument. Rob F sticks to specific points and hard evidence to support his thesis; we don’t get much of that here. For example we hear about Oliver Only but have no way to verify anything through citation.
I think the age of Fanny is a hang up for many who want to accuse Joseph ..
The Age of Joseph Smith's GIRL brides is a hang up for anyone with morals...Christian beliefs...and common sense. Can you say Jim Jones? David Koresh?
The fact that Joseph Smith also plural married two 14 year old girls in the 1840s should be even more disturbing to you.
Not to mention the fact that he also plural married at least eleven women who were married to other men at the time.
And not to mention the fact that several of those women testified that they had sex with Smith as well as their legal husbands.
And not to mention the fact that polygamy was against the law of the land and was specifically prohibited by the LDS church's book of Doctrine & Covenants.
And not to mention the fact that polygamy was the prime cause of Joseph's death.
But other than that, there was nothing negative whatsoever about Joseph's plural marriage practice!
As far as Joseph Smith and Emma lying about it, I don't see it that way. The way I see it, how was the question asked? For what I can tell Joseph what he is saying is that no, it's not going to be practice it broadly and openly. Then the few who are practicing by way of commandment are to keep it quiet and sacred for now.
It exhausted everyone. We will meet these characters one day and how much fun to chat! This will be
Don't worry, folks, Joseph Smith is a true prophet. All is well.
you mean man hor
One more comment and then I'm done. @Don Bradley.
Considering the 1838 High Council testimony where Joseph discussed the "girl business." If everyone was satisfied, it would be because he said it wasn't true, that he never had relations with that woman, Mr. Alger. He may have even wagged his finger. If he would have gone into any detail in the council meeting, not a public meeting, my 100,000 sad 401k will wager would have found several of these high council people, even ONE, over the next 50 years, spilling the beans. They didn't. Robinson's discussion about polygamy seems to say that it was discussed, not that it was admitted to. Robinson was eager to whistle blow on polygamy because he did it with Hyrum Smith later on. Maybe he was still on the fence in 1844, but surely he would have said something in his later affidavits. He didn't.
The High Council meeting really does nothing to further the Fanny Alger scandal and make it more true, whether its polygamy or a sexual affair. The Alger story is only interesting in that it's a dog whistle for later polygamy or later sex scandals that have stronger evidence. It's an asterisk, not a feature.
Fanny Alger is another and a very important chapter in the sins always present and particularly female sins. This "transaction" occurred 10 years before many claim Joseph every heard about a second woman.
Absolutely disgusting using a sultry woman spilling out of her top to represent a 15 year-old girl.. A girl who was likely pressured into sex. Just vile.
Mormon history… the gift that keeps on giving. 🎁
49:00 ish. Speaks to the potential lie of Joseph Smith, one way we could see this potential situation, as not a lie, is to compare what the world thinks of polygamy and what the church at the time may have thought of polygamy.
I'm no historian, so my information may be wrong here but;
The world thinks multiple wives= multiple sex partners and thus multiple sets of offspring.
And the church, at least with Joseph Smith, thinks of it as multiple sealings and not multiple sex relationships. Thus no multiple sets of offspring.
We can see this play out in Joseph who says later on somewhere; paraphrasing off my memory: where are all these other children? You can see I have none, other than from Emma.
I know I botched that up. But, you can see what I mean. Joseph's children that he actually did rear were only from Emma.
So, is Joseph Smith lying to the world, if he did have a polygamous sealing to multiple wives, but didn't have a physical marriage and sex with any woman beyond Emma?
This doesn’t seem to be a lie. Just using the terms given the way they were made to him.