Stephen left the church after reading anti-Mormon content after much studying & research he returned
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- Опубликовано: 27 янв 2024
- #lds #mormon #comeback
Check out his channel: / @mormonismwiththemurph
"I remember my dad, he sent me an apologetic video -- initially I was like 'dad I don't want to listen to this pseudo scholarship, this mental gymnastics the church isn't what it claims to be, come on give it a rest.' He was like just watch it. I sort of recognized that I'm not being very open-minded, I'm not willing to listen. I'd already come to a firm conclusion, so I was like fine I'll watch it. It was by a guy called Bruce Porter and it was about the connections and correspondences and parallels between our temple endowment and ancient Egyptian temple rituals. If I'm being intellectually honest and consistent, just as I couldn't deny that there are things which are similar - if not identical, between a Masonic ritual and the temple endowment, there were things which correspond quite well. So I was like, 'okay, I can understand why a true believer they might think that the temple endowment is like a restoration of an ancient temple ritual.' So that sort of sparked some curiosity and I started to explore more evidence for things like this."
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Thank you Stephen and Ashley, I am a baby boomer and have not yet had a faith crisis, I think my wife and I have been given the gift of faith and belief (but we have had plenty of trials that have brought us to our knees seeking reassurance). Having said that, our daughters are your age (millennials), they have both left the church, at first this absolutely crushed me, but as I see and hear more of these "come back stories" it gives me great hope not just for the possibility of them returning to the church, but a deeper and firmer belief in the whole of the Plan of Salvation. Knowing that the Plan will at some point give all, even the hardened unbelievers a solid chance at accepting Christ and the "Great Plan of Happiness" Keep up the great work, both of you!
Thanks for having me on Ashley, apologies the audio wasnt great on my end. It seemed like my mic wasnt capturing everyhtjng i was saying.
I love your testimony, Murph. Thank you for your courage. Thank you for sharing and strengthening others.
❤ thank you so very much! As I listened to you, I also was learning. You are very opened about this. I can feel your faith! Thank you
Thank you Stephen! This is Lauren the editor, there was a lag in the recording so I had to delete some of the crossover. We haven't had that issue so I am guessing it was your distance? Either way it was a phenomenal episodem, definitely one of my favorites!
Nope, no audio issues for me
Thank you for sharing your experience and testimony!!
Growing up in a small midwestern college town The Godmakers came to our city. I was still young… junior high age. There were new converts in our small branch who were college students and they decided to go to correct them.
I asked how it went and this sweet young convert said she felt complete darkness there and her tongue was held. She finally just had to leave.
I knew at a young age that the adversary is working overtime to destroy testimonies. I’m so grateful for your podcast… and many others that have brought all these false arguments out and in the open. Your guests have been through such difficult dark times to find their way back. It’s incredibly inspiring.
Thank you
Totally love this. I served in N Ireland in 82-83. During the midst of the Troubles. Cave Hill, Rosetta and Portadown. Hardest time of my life, but most rewarding. Traveling with my wife and we went to church in Portadown May ‘23. When I walked into that chapel the spirit was there as strong as I have ever felt, and it hit me like a load of bricks and reaffirmed to me the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I’ve been blessed by this gospel. ❤❤❤
Stephen’s experience is similar to my own. Love his channel!
Thanks!
Would love to hear it! email ashly.comebackpodcast@gmail.com
Love Stephen. He was my son’s mission comp. I love that he came back to the fold, and that he is sharing his experiences with other’s.
I think the "anti-Mormon" label gets applied to readily to anything critical of Mormonism. I left the LDS church and am now mainstream Christian. I am critical of some theological and historical claims, but am proud of my Mormon upbringing and heritage and culture. In some way, I am pro-Mormon, and always tell people what good people Mormons are, and tell them to be nice when the missionaries come around.
Thank you for doing these podcasts. I find them informative and strengthening.
Another awesome interview. My favorite of all of the insights was when Stephen said "I left with integrity, and I came back with integrity." It is, I think, far more often the case than we think, that our friends and family members leave the church "with integrity". If/since this is the case, it is important for us to treat them and their decision with integrity as well. Accepting them for who they are at the point that they leave can then be done in an absence of fear and anger, and in the presence of mutual respect. Many, if not most, who leave with integrity will come back eventually with integrity. If we treat them with integrity while they are away, that gives them a much safer space to begin mounting their integrous comeback.
We all have to fight and struggle for a testimony. It wouldn’t be worth much if we didn’t have to.
I found it interesting that your guest turned to the D&C and found solace, comfort and answers to his questions there, since those words came from God but through a prophet that he wasn’t fully accepting as a prophet.
I also appreciated his comments about how those who criticize the BoM don’t hold the Bible to the same criticism. Iv’e often thought the same thing as I read from the Bible.
It’s a shame that so many of us waste so much time in losing and regaining a testimony when we could be spending that time discovering the depths of Christ’s teachings.
But I get it. We all have to start where we are.
Often, those who go through the most painful turmoil come out the strongest.
Thank you for sharing these stories. Heaven knows there are plenty of stories of people who have left the church. I find comfort in knowing that so many return.
I love both of your channels. Thank you for sharing your experience. I love the simplicity one finds on the other side of complexity after overcoming a faith crisis.
100%
Thank you. Loved this story. Regardless of what we have said, or done, or where we’ve been, God will always be there to accept us back into his arms and fellowship.
Yes, we are all beloved to our Heavenly Mother and our Heavenly Father.
I appreciate Elder Holland's statement about if we leave we have to deal with the origin and quality of the Book of Mormon. Only recently I have thought of the reality that Joseph Smith recited it rather than wrote it. No mortal could have recited it without referring to the previous text. How could he have been confident to fool eleven men or have them lie for him. Even Chiasmus is a miracle. I studied the New Testament with such fervor and intent as a missionary that intellectually I knew that the Blue Print of all the doctrines of the restoration are so well laid out there that the church was true. The spiritual testimony was strong but the intellectual was so valuable. As much as I love Murph it is sad that he didn't study the Bible with the zeal he gave history. What do you do with Isaiah 29, Ezekiel 27, Amos 8 11-12, the dozens of apostasy and restoration scriptures, Acts 2, Ephesians 4, Daniel 2. The dozens of Bible scriptures that are ironclad about a physical resurrection, spirit world, nature of God, plan of salvation. etc. David Alexander I believe saw power of the sister missionaries but the doctrine of the restoration he knew from the Bible. What do you do with the Elijah prophecy at the end of the old Testament Murph?
Since the witnesses and Joseph had no problem with lying we cannot rule out the possibility that he could have a text in front of him. The KJV bible verses clearly show he had the Bible open. Joseph and Sidney also didn’t say they had the Clarke Bible commentary which they were plagiarizing for the Joseph smith translation of the Bible, so don’t rule out that Joseph could have another text with him.
The standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done. -Joseph Smith, 1842
@@dr33776lol seriously?
@@vendingdudes so it’s more believable to you that a rock in a hat gave Joseph Smith verses from the KJV bible word for word than him having a book open in front of him and reading from it? 😂😂😂
@@jss1724 You forgot the printing press must be destroyed. Don't be talking about my 30 wives god made me take.
Stephen has always struck me as an honest seeker of truth.
Regarding the supposed 'unpardonable sin' of 'succumbing' to one's emotions: It's ironic that Stephen's was most in danger of commiting said sin when he DIDN'T want the Church to be true; he received answers that satisfied his intellectual standards @45:00, but he didn't WANT to give up his current paradigm/lifestyle.
I loved this podcast. I can relate to questioning your faith, Steven. I also think having an open mind is a good thing!! Just remember when questioning, that it’s better on your spirit to question with the attitude of proving the church RIGHT, rather than proving it wrong. The Spirit will guide you!! Keep the Faith👍🏻👍🏻. The WHOLE THING is based upon FAITH❣️
Listening to Hello Saints has actually strengthened my testimony sooo much👍🏻. May you continue to find the TRUTH, it is absolute.
OUR FAITH WILL ALWAYS BE TESTED AS JOB HAD! ❤❤❤
Facts test faith in Mormonism.
Glad you interviewed Stephen. He is awesome, and I love his youtube channel :)
Where is his youtube channel, when I pressed the link in the video comments, it didn't take me to his channel. Thanks in advance if you would please send me the link.
www.youtube.com/@mormonismwiththemurph
@@hmvsmith - I'll try to paste it here: www.youtube.com/@mormonismwiththemurph
I love Murph, and his testimony! Thank you!❤️☀️
Thanks!
This was a more complete story from Murph than I have heard before. Totally enjoyed it all.
I love that you were shy and now you’re talking to anyone in the world who will listen!
Thank you for taking the time to do this video. It is awesome to hear the stories of those who have strayed and made their way back to the gospel.
They are again able to join with their brothers and sisters! Hopefully, with eyes wide open to better see the beauty, the kindness and the hope, as well as keeping their eyes half closed to reduce the affect of each individual ‘s imperfections and shortcomings. Fortunately, the Lord is willing to work through each one of us, despite our faults and defects! Thanks again,! I pray God is with you both, and His spirit touches the hearts of your listeners to strengthen their testimonies :-)
Stephen, thank you for sharing your story and for your authentic approach.
Another soldier for the cause of truth. Thanks for your example and your encouragement!
Like many people who make videos online, I’ve gotten mad at Murph a few times commenting on his videos. I loved this interview though, Murph is honestly one of the most sincere voices in defense of the restored gospel right now.
In one of his videos he left the door open to leaving again, but I think he’s going to be a strong voice for a while.
Thank you both!!
I so love this podcast. It fills me with hope to know there's always a way back to the covenant path. Loved hearing the Murph's story. So awesome!
As an Irish Catholic convert, and one who had to come to grips with his own faith crisis, and left the church he grew up in, (all my friends were Catholic, and I went to Catholic school all growing up etc), I have really come to see that the quality of brutal self-honesty is so powerful and important, so essential for personal progression... and it's obvious that Stephen has that, thank you for this wonderful interview!
wow wow WOW! THIS!!! Ok so one of my favorite things is to articulate my faith, but listening to you articulate your experience helped me understand my faith on a whole other level! You put things into words I've not yet attempted and all I could do was laugh!!! The only way I could convey the joy it was to listen to you haha, thank you so much for sharing your story
Minute 43 “it felt so direct”……amen. I know what you mean
Great story and testimony!
Stephen it’s clear God wants you in His kingdom. What an amazing experience.
Thank you!
Loved this story!
Great interview
Thanks!
Thank you!
Sweet, my mission was in Alberta, Canada. Awesome. Canada was fun.
I wish you had asked Stephen about his experience of returning back and what his spiritual impressions were.
LOVING YOUR GUESTS!
So Inspiring!!!!!!
The Murph is awesome
Hey Murph, did/ do you know Shamus Kelly?
Yeah we served in the same zone on my mission
Like David Alexander God had Stephen’s gift in hand all along. If a person stays committed to being honest, something many church critics are not, then they can’t go too far away. Love the honesty and clarity of Stephen…he could write a book that would help many. One mistake that seems plain to me is to confuse questions with answers. If we don’t have all the facts to answer an historical question then making a dogmatic judgement is running to a conclusion. This goes both ways. Adam God theory is a question while the Spiritual witnesses I’ve been given are facts to me.
Could you do a video on the second anointing?
I think we could add that to one of the Q&As
@@Come.Back.Podcast Thank you 👍
Murph is a true disciple of Christ.
Thank you ❤
What was the byu talk he listened to?
speeches.byu.edu/talks/lawrence-e-corbridge/stand-for-ever/
@@Come.Back.Podcast Thank you
I wonder why the need to read anti Mormon docs when we have sooooooo much Church resources to learn about the gospel of Jesus Christ that are so uplifting.
READING ANTI-LDS MATERIALS IS CALLED PLAYING WITH SATAN! 😊😊😊
It could be that we need to know how to lead people back to faith.
1Peter 3:15
If we know what the accusations are, and we know what the actual evidence is, we can identify the distortions and lies, and leave room for faith.
The CES letter was written and sent to the CES by a faithful returned missionary that has been interested in church history. In his search of the history he found things that raised some questions. There are not anti Mormon rhetoric things, they are facts that cannot be denied.
The CES letter was not created by non Mormon attempting to disprove the church, but by believing Mormon trying to prove it.
Those enemies of the truth are just that enemies. I have so many friends returning to church because God has told them by the holy Ghost. They realize that all that looking into people's lives is fruitless. the church is a hospital of sinners not a window of prefect people. All the prophets and apostles were and continue to be human weather in the time of Christ or now. Even though people tell you not to pray and not to read they are just ultimately trying to destroy your faith because ultimately all that persuades you to do evil comes from evil.
I don't think it is AT ALL helpful to label those who leave the Church for very valid reasons as ENEMIES. WE are taught our whole Mormon lives and many of us served 2 year missions "WARNING our neighbors'. That mindset doesn't end when people find out about Church history they were never taught and have real moral issues with. It is their knee-jerk reaction to WARN their neighbors about their newly sound truth just as they have been taught to do their whole life. That doesn't make them an ENEMY. They are just doing what they've been taught as a Mormon.
@@randoman33 How does the Holy Ghost progress without a body????
@@randoman33 why are you here?
@@411wealthpartners isn't this podcast entitled, "come back"? Doesn't that imply that she is trying to influence those who have left to come back? Is it really too much to see a comment saying that people who leave the church shouldn't be categorized as "enemies"? Do you think that kind of approach will influence those that leave to come back?
Explain to me why my patriotical blessing says I will be a mother and raise my children and I'm 43 no children my husband is 49 and we've been trying for years?
Can you reveal any gospel teachings in the Book of Mormon that are not found in the Bible???
Off the top of my head it condemns infant baptism in Moroni. Greater depth on the atonement of Jesus Christ in Alma. It shows the major idea oppositions that are put forth against Christ and counters them.
@@andrewdurfee3896 Where is infant baptism found in the Bible? How is the Bible lacking when it describes the Atonement?
@@johnrowley310 Despite infant baptism not being found in the Bible it is a practice the permeates Christian denominations. More knowledge on the atonement of Jesus Christ is always welcome. The answer to the problem of evil found in 2 Nephi 2 is unique to the Book of Mormon.
@@andrewdurfee3896 Is there anything unique to the Bible besides baptism for the dead. Can't seem to find it in The Book of Mormon...
I recommend that you prayerfully read the entire Book of Mormon. Including the introductory pages. King Benjamin’s sermon is one of my favorites. That’s in the first chapters of Mosiah.
He didn't have the CES letter memorized. He uses hyperbole and bad arguments like a lot of apologists
We know that was a figure of speech
@@Come.Back.Podcast Mormon apologists continue to vilify the CES letter, but before it was written, people like me were leaving the church because of ecclesiastical abuse and bigotry towards LGBTQ people. I don't think many decent people are left in the church. People like David Archuleta and his mom left because they were treated so poorly. LDS leaders are cruel and absurd.
I don't know what the ces letter is.
The CES letter is essentially a compilation of criticisms of the church. I would personally recommend watching videos about the CES letter first from faithful sources, like from Saints Unscripted (RUclips channel). I’ve read the CES letter. My faith in the restoration is still strong. However, it has destroyed a lot of testimonies as well. I would advise caution if you aren’t well versed in church history.
@D.LeviBoillot-sj5kf Well, I watch lots of David Alexander and Ward radio. So I should be ok.😉
@@frankszulakiewicz5826
I also suggest that you listen to the commentary of multiple U Tube programs giving their faith based response to the CES letter before reading it. That way you will have the proof of what is true in the CES letter, and what is false.
One of the statements in the CES letter is why do the same words that are not in the original transcripts the Bible was translated into , the words that are italicized in the Bible, also in the Book 📖 f Mormon? The answer is the original Aramaic and Greek had no vowels, and the vowels are a natural English additions to translation. If you watch president Thomas S Manson's account of Crystal Methvan where Chris spoke to him, Forsake not the little Chicken to come unto me, for such is the kingdom of God" That also is the same as in the Bible ble, and would not make sense without the vowels added. In other words, God speaks to us in our language, in the way we understand whether in the Bible, Book of Mormon, to an apostle of the church, or to you or me. There are so many other faithful responses to the CES letter I could respond to. The Book of Abraham , for example, is one I have. a good response to.
@@natalieboillotCES letter is not a compilation of complaints against the church. It is a compilation of facts that when looked at with a unbiased view, with no weight or consideration placed one way or the other, Will present facts that will legitimately make the Churches truth claims show as unholy and misleading. Each individual can pray and come to their own conclusion, but you have to Accept that your giving consideration in a weighted opinion that chooses to look at these things in a untruthful way that is not supported by fact. To each their own and if choosing to consider the church’s un factual claims helps you be the best person you can be and follow Christ then good for you.
The CES letter was not created by a anti Mormon group that wants to talk bad about the church, it is a comp of questions presented to the CES by a faithful, returned missionary that had recognized the anomalies and anachronisms.
Come Back Podcast recently had an episode called What is the CES letter… really good. It goes into the source & history of the CES letter as well as some of the techniques, twisted truths, (the author says that if you prove any of the criticisms wrong, he’ll remove them … but doesn’t b/c they happen to be parts that are the biggest draw away from the church. So he’s knowingly being deceptive…). But there’s also just some good, wise general info on how to approach anti-Mormon literature.
❤
Can I debate any LDS member ?
LDS are encouraged to NOT debate, but the bear testimony.
To what end? What would you hope to accomplish with a debate?
@@barryburton5885you guys preach your gospel to everyone and supposedly think truth can be found anywhere. If your faith stands up to scrutiny and can refute the critics then surely you will have no problem debating and defending your faith.
Sure. Let's end the Chili controversy once and for all. I say Chili has beans. Also, artichokes are better with butter rather than mayo. Rebuttal?
Happy to discuss instead
Finding out about the lies coverups and fraud of the LDS church was shocking …leaving was the greatest experience…don’t even want to glimpse it in the rear view mirror…👍🏽👍🏽.
Yet here you are! Welcome❤
@@sarahaas183 Perhaps more welcome than being shunned by the self righteous members who still claim to be Christians..🤐
Ok he mentioned every single problematic topic of Church History. 😂😂😂
"After much studying & research," I reached the opposite conclusion that Stephen did. His conclusion was based on a subjective "spiritual" confirmation. Mine was reached on abductive reasoning (most likely explanation based on the information).
Thomas Edison: "To those searching for truth--not the truth of dogma and darkness but the truth brought by reason, search, examination, and inquiry, discipline is required. For faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction--faith in fiction is a damnable false hope."
It takes a quite a bit of discipline to act on faith. Faith and reason must both be applied. But when you have a spiritual experience that shakes you to your core you don't care about what any other man has to say - because you know and God knows what happened. - Lauren
Faith not based on facts is just a belief. When Jesus asked Peter, who he said that Jesus was, after Peter's reply Jesus said to him, "flesh and blood has not revealed it onto you, but my Father which is in Heaven". It wasn't "flesh and blood" that revealed Peter's understanding that Jesus was the Christ, neither was it reason, argument or logic. You cannot know what the Church is built upon if you don't understand that individuals can receive revelation from God in His particular way through the Holy Ghost that leaves them in no doubt of the truth.
@@Come.Back.Podcast I do suspect that these spiritual feelings are likely emotion "elevation." However, I do allow people to interpret their own experiences because I cannot definitively determine what happened.
From the episodes I've watched, it seems many people you've interviewed were inactive or never lost their belief in God. I recall a poll that about 65% of former LDS believers are now agnostic or atheist. I've seen Facebook polls where it's more like 80%.
@@bodyer2120 Where I live, only about 2% of the population is Mormon. I know Christians who receive "revelation"--for some God is literally speaking to them and for others is seems like promptings. It is interesting to see how God reveals contradictory things. To a Mormon, the revelations that contradict Mormon teachings, etc. would be deceptions of the Devil or a person's own thoughts/feelings. (Joseph Smith said something like "some revelations are from God, some from the Devil, and some from man".) How do you know when a "revelation" is NOT a deception or NOT your own thoughts/feelings (called emotion elevation)?
The target audience for these videos doesn't actually seem to be for people who have left. The target audience seems to be for believing members to give them unrealistic hope that their loved ones that left will one day return. I know countless people who after examining the troubling issues of the church left. I don't know a single one that regained their belief. To be fair, I do know one guy that went back because his new wife is a believer, but he just fakes it for her.
Thanks for your cynicism
@@Come.Back.Podcast sorry, just providing my perspective as someone who left. I can grant that others might have a different experience.
@@danhoen4129 we are aware. My name is Lauren, I am the editor. Ashly and I run this podcast and we both left the church and have come back. I also have current family members that are anti.
@@Come.Back.Podcast So I take it that you aren't interested in hearing perspectives of those that left unless they regain their belief?
I find when I get casual in my relationships to divinity and when it seems no divine ear is listening and no voice is speaking that I am far far away if I immerse myself in the scriptures the distance narrows and the spiritually returns
Spencer W Kimball
If you want to have God speak to you this is how its done.
Are you hiding my comments?
Not at all, I only delete comments from people who attack our guests
@@Come.Back.Podcast Ok thank you. Just wondering because I've commented on many videos about my struggle. why my patriotical blessing says I will be a mother and that that raising my children will be the Main thrust in my life. I'm 43 no children my husband is 49 and we've been trying for years? We have gone through fertility treatments and. I've spent years saving baby things. Yet the room sits empty with no children.💔😞. The fact that it says the "main thrust" of my life will be in raising children, plural. Yet each month it goes by I am wrecked with heartache. No one has anything to say about my situation.
@@Come.Back.Podcast any thoughts I'm desperate for help? I've done all that I can I've been faithful! I've gone to the temple to try to find peace and I had an anxiety attack at the veil. No one comforted me I sat in the celestial room and I cried for an hour and a half. I feel so alone!
@@Come.Back.Podcast Hello?
@@Come.Back.Podcast please help me with this, I'm really trying to find the answers. I have been drowning in Hope!
Truth is often mislabeled as 'anti' this or that, while mormons desecrate Jesus after every Sunday service when the left over 'blessed and sanctified' bread and water is thrown out like common trash.
This comment makes no sense. Also, what makes something “anti”, is generally the “intent” of the info. Not so much the info, itself.
Perhaps the church could have handled church history. Who knows? But it’s all out there, now. And church history isn’t “the gospel”. It’s a history of imperfect people, making good decisions and bad ones. And there are many things we just don’t understand.
What should they do with the remaining bread and water? 😂
@@sarahaas183 Eat it, drink it, save it for next time, etc. Consider how the Catholic Church and Anglican Churches treat the body and blood of Jesus Christ.
Mormons treat old worn out garments with more respect than the symbol of Jesus Christ, when the 'sacred' non biblical freemasonry symbols are first removed before disposing of old underwear.
Hi John. Unlike some churches, we do not consider the bread and water to be the body and blood of the Saviour. Its only viewed as a symbol and is not considered as sacriligious to dispose of it.
@@bodyer2120 Yep, mormons and baptist throw the left overs out. A local baptist pastor said; 'yes, we throw away the left overs, because it doesn't mean anything anyway'.
Which is interesting because 'blessing and sanctifying' something, anything, such as bread, water, oil, symbols, people, means to 'set it apart' to be something special, consecrated to the Lord, and it is no longer just regular bread, water, oil, symbols, anymore.
Mormons are unique because they show more respect to old worn out underwear than the 'symbol' of Jesus Christ, when the freemasonry 'symbols' are removed from old garments before disposal.
Why mormons think that is pleasing to God is a mystery.
🤍
Going to Disney World “feels good”. That doesn’t make it true.
I freaking love Disney
I am astonished that the CES thing would have any influence on anybody. There is nothing convincing in it at all.
I haven't read it. Don't plan to read it.
@@FromG2eminorIf the church is true it should stand up to any criticism or questions presented, but if it is not true it is one of the greatest hoaxes every presented to the people in history that has robbed and controlled them by threat of salvation.
We don't know what we don't know. I have read Palmer, Tanner, Jeremy's CES letter, dealt with Seer stone, polygamy and my first challenge was Bennett in the early church. I understand and agree with Murph that some things don't seem right and there are valid questions for sure but as real as the spiritual miracles are to me are the intellectual realities you will find in the Bible and the Book of Mormon. When Ammon said talking about his mission "I can't say the smallest part that which I feel" I realized that the uneducated Joseph Smith could not have used more appropriate, if awkward language, in describing his mission as that is how I felt describing the miracles of my own mission. I did have all the answers to every minister I met on my mission because I had the blue print and knew it better than they did. Church history can be messy but so is our lives. I have met several alcoholics in the church who were converted to the Lord with an experience similar to King Lamoni. No act of will could take the pain away and the pain couldn't have any other source than Satan. Two of these close friends had Alma bitter and Alma sweet experiences. Tens of thousands have had the Ether 12-6 witness after the trial of their faith or the Enos experience. With church history the missing pieces of the puzzle will show up to all of us one day perhaps in a revelatory manner like Dusty in the comeback podcast. After a few 100 hours studying this stuff frankly it can be pretty boring.
You should watch our video on the origins of the CES letter
You are right Jeremy it should and will stand up but the plan is that our faith can be tested. It amazes me how for so many what we don't know trumps what we know. On my mission I didn't even keep a journal because I was committed to studying the scriptures every minute available. The miracles I experienced were instilled on my soul and although there was just a handful any more would have redundant to my testimony. Some said I had the New Testament memorized and of course I didn't but I did have several on every topic that came up. The lone Minister that was sincerely searching was converted by our testimony and the fact that he had the same experience in his Baptist schooling that young Joseph had. Jeremy on one occasion after teaching a Minister for 3 or 4 hours. We wouldn't interrupt but each have the floor until we were finished my companion who never said a word said that was a waste of time. Months later I was visiting a booth at the Canadian national exhibition and a young man came up to me and said you don't remember me but I will never forget you. I was in that classroom with you that day and I never knew the church was true but I knew mine was not. He found the elders in New York State and was waiting for his mission call. Jeremy were you an elder like my companion?
Interesting you saw n.d.e stories. Have you seen the ones where people saw Joseph Smith in Hell and many Mormons? The latest one his name is Blood bought. He saw Joseph didn't know who he was until a couple years later when he told his father in law . He showed him Joseph's picture( he said the nose is a bit different from the picture) and he saw the mantion house in navoo. What baffles me is that after seeing all the proof of how Joseph did it you still chose to stay? . To me it's like going to a very fancy restaurant and seeing how nasty the kitchen is, filled with mice,rats and cockroaches . After seeing that I would never go back to that restaurant. I left the church. And asked for JESUS to prove to me I was on the right path and to show me in anyway he chooses to tell me. This was around 3 pm I cried and prayed until 5 then I left it in his hands and said even if you don't want to show me right now I'll wait until you see that I'm ready. My uncle from Brazil called me which never happens after 5 pm because it's a 4 he difference. I asked him why did he decided to calm at that moment? He said I thought of you and hadn't spoken to you in a long time, I miss you my daughter. He calls me his first baby his daughter. I was amazed how fast JESUS answered my prayer. JESUS proved to me by actions that I'm on the right path and that he loves me. Joseph was never. Real prophet and it's easy to prove . Any of his prophecies that didn't come true according to the Bible only one wrong prophecy is enough to tell that man is a false prophet. He said the name of God is Elohim in which in Hebrew it means Lord or person from the spirit realm, it can also mean demons. Joseph didn't know Gods name. How could he be prophet? He said there are people on the moon that dress like Quakers. And don't even get me started on his translation of the Bible he added 13 verses to Genesis 50 found no where else but in his Bible . And it talks about him. And you still don't get it? . The book of Abraham has been proven a fraud and you still believe? . I'm sorry but I can understand ignorance or lack of knowledge on a subject, but to learn the truth by many sources saying the same things about Joseph and you deny it? What does that make you? It inst a wise person. The wise see this and leave because they love the truth and hate lies. How can you even consider going back knowing all of that? You're ok with Nelson being part of Skull and Bones s secret society?
I did see the guy who claimed to have an nde and in it he saw Joseph Smith and millions of followers as I examined it as I examined it further I began to doubt the reality of his nde. Not everybody who has claimed to have an nde has really had one. It is a great source of income. As far as the other quotes that you claimed that Joseph said there were pilgrims or other people on the moon and other out of this world claims most of those came from people who were not Joseph Smith's established record keepers, but people who claimed certain things and are of dubious validity. As far as the book of Abraham goes, there are people who make claims of falsehood about the translation, but most likely this was a revelation. Being as you claim that he could not have been a prophet, I suspect that doesn't matter to you.
@davidlarson8050 you're right it doesn't matter to me because the truth is what matters to me. The book of Abraham has been proven to be a simple papyrus of the Egyptian book of the dead. All mummies had them no exceptions. The book "View of the Hebrews " was written by Ethan Smith as a novel 7 years before the b.o.m and it has 70 similarities, and that study was done by a member back then . Isn't it too much of a coincidence that both of Joseph's first scribes Sidney Rigdon and Oliver Cowdery were members of Ethans church? The author of view of the hebrews? Let us reason together no feelings our hearts lie to us.
What do you do with the donkey talking in the bible and the blind receiving sight did you forget all things are possible with God the best way to know if it's true is ask God
Some people like Stephen who know the serious issues with the Church's truth claims, use the Church as a UTILITY. Others cannot return after learning about Joseph Smith polygamy and Book of Abraham not being historical, etc. BECAUSE Mormonism has to be TRUE and HISTORICAL. As long as Stephen can do the mental gymnastics and use the Church for the utility.
I was imagining what was going through this woman’s head when Stephen gave a very long list of major problems with the church’s truth claims. She has stated she hasn’t read the CES letter and she seems to be mostly in because it helped her get off drugs, which is great, to each their own.
I doubt she knows even 10% of the problems since she seems to brush everything off to the side.
Did you even watch the video? That is absolutely not Murph's story. You should engage with his actual reasons rather than a strawman.
@@dr33776what you yourself don’t understand, and fail to comprehend, is what real drug addiction looks like. Those of us who do, know how very few thing’s actually cure addiction. Anything that can, is an asset to society. Anything that can, is a good tree, that bears good fruit. That alone makes it valuable. But those of us who have also felt and know the love of God don’t need to read it. Though I myself have, and it ain’t all that. #overrated
Book of Abraham is actually deadly accurate if you take the time to understand it’s correct interpretation and context. It’s proven independently of LDS scholars that Israelites used Egyptian hieroglyphs to tell their own stories. There’s evidence of Abraham associated with papyri from the same area of Egypt Joseph’s papyri came from. Completely unknown to Joseph in his day.
What people like you do is pontificate, but make no case for whatever supposed moral high ground you’re supposedly standing on.
@@millennialfalkon the first two verses are anachronistic, it proves it is not a historical record but 19th century pseudepigrapha. The facsimiles are also completely wrong.
What if the papyrus comes from the same area, if Abraham existed it was hundreds of years before those papyrus were created. You’re grasping at straws.