Powerwall 1 and 2 explained by Amadeus Bürgel
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- Опубликовано: 2 дек 2024
- Amadeus Bürgel in Nienburg, Germany shows his newly installed Powerwall 1. He also explains how Powerwall 2 will be.
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Hello Bjiorn, it would be nice when the PW2 will arrive to Amadeus if you can interview him again, as it will be really interesting in knowing how the two PWs connect together. I own a PW1 since last September and I'm really satisfied with it. First three weeks of March I run all the house with an average of 93% of the time using my own electricity wether it was from PV or from the PW! Obviously over the winter if it is raining or it is too cloudy the average goose around 60% but still a good number... 6.2 kWh is however not enough to store enough energy for my needs, that is why I was looking for a combination of the twos. Good work!
It's possible to use the powerwalls without grid connection and connected via DC by using an islanding inverter like the Solaredge SE7200/6000-RWS or SMA Sunny Island. That's not a common install in Germany due to the high feed in tariff... but common in places like Ireland where we don't get paid for the electricity we give free to the grid .... we get fined.
cros13 we get fined in Ireland for exports? Really i get paid for my exports through Electric Ireland, it's a small amount but I still get paid. That reminds I must follow up on this years payment/credit.
I've asked Tesla repeatedly about getting a Powerwall in Ireland. Haven't replied. Someone told me they are still looking for installers.
www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/esb-ends-scheme-for-homeowners-who-want-to-sell-power-30706655.html
The 9c feed in tariff was closed to new entrants in 2014 (after only a few hundred had joined). While existing exporters still got the tariff until at least dec2016 (I'm not sure it was extended). New entrants now get no feed-in-tariff and still have to meet the cost of the import/export meter and use only equipment tested against the sham Irish addendum to EN50438 (that only differs from EN50348:2013 in one setting) and doesnt in clude any islanding inverters.... and there's an additional "Low-usage surcharge" with electric ireland for failing to import a minimum of 2kWh/day. And there are no grants or tax relief for PV or storage. So yeah, we are the only country in the EU without a feed-in tariff for microgeneration.
cros13 well the system is still live for those of us who got in early. never had a low usage tariff applied as we don't have storage and haven't been able to as no storage batteries have been approved as of earlier this month, the last time I checked. get onto the CER as the more pressure they are put on the more likely it is to get it implementated.
The CER are responsible for the mess as they decided leave it up to the market to decide FiT rates... the customer supply companies decided they didn't want to pay at all.
There is supposed to be a new feed-in-tariff for utility scale PV at some point this year... but no indication yet as to whether microgeneration might get anything.
In the USA, the Powerwall 2 can be set up to buy and store power during cheap times, and sell back during expensive times (if you have solar Net Metering). I do, and will be doing that when my Powerwall 2 arrives.
Very true. I would be selling when it is 48 cents/kWH and buying when it is 12.5 cents/kWH, so it would be worth it in the short term :)
California. This is what we call a Time of Use rate plan.The cost/kWH varies throughout the day.
Wow. That's quite huge. I was thinking that it will be smaller. Nevertheless the talk with Amadeus was very educating. The statistics were very useful.
If the Power wall needs the AC sine wave from the grid to work. That would make it useless in a blackout correct?
And why can't the Power wall generate it own AC sine wave and sync it with the grid for when it is not connected?
You can configure the PowerWall 2 to supply 'critical loads' directly, in the event of a power failure. They need to run a circuit directly from the Powerwall 2 to those circuits.
There is an addon device called Tesla Energy Gateway that apparently allows offgrid use.
It's not a perfect solution, as for some reason you cannot charge from solar during the blackout.
BlueFoxTV It can be configured to provide backup power, but you need to install auto transfer switch to disconnect from the grid during a blackout. If you do not disconnect from the grid, your powerwall will be feeding power to your neighborhood. PV systems also shut down in an event an event of a power failure.
Yes, that's correct- it's a safety feature to protect utility linemen who might be working on the grid circuit while the device is connected to the grid so they don't inadvertently get electrocuted by live electricity when the wires shouldn't be carrying any current.
thx for that information, very interesting issue!
Thanks for the video, can you please clarify the financial case? For example what is the calculation of the feed-in tariff vs the powerwall cost? Amadeus mentions the cost of 14 cent per kwh from the solar panels - is that the feed-in tariff or the cost from PV? Let's say the feed in tariff were 17 cent per kwh and the buy price is 28 cents - the difference of 11 cents needs to pay off the cost of the powerwall - how long would that take? I don't have the financial data available apart from what Amadeus said in the video so it would be great to understand. From everything else I have read, assuming there is a feed in tariff and there are no black-outs, there is no financial justification for the powerwall on an individual basis - only at utility/community level. Thanks for any additional data/info in advance.
Yes. All PVs have to direct the overflow into the grid and/or batteries. This is my understanding, having PVs. Yet, no one has yet conclusively explained, as rule-of-thumb, the ideal percentage of battery storage to productive capacity/usage.
Entirely depends on how much energy you use and at what times. A smart installer will attach an energy monitor to the home to log power usage. Or you could get the energy monitor installed yourself before hand, to keep long term.
Also consider if the goal is zero bill cost, or zero grid input. The first is where the power you sell into the grid overcomes the little you buy back at night, the later is to never draw power from the grid.
Figures I found for Australia said up to 70% of power usage is during times when solar isn't producing. Not sure I believe that as was from a company selling solar/batteries.
It probably depends on the local climate. If you live somewhere with a proper winter and you use electricity for heating, not only do you need a lot of energy for heating during the day when you can produce, but you need a lot more energy for heating through the longer, colder winter nights, so the figure of "up to 70%" seems plausible for some situations during the least ideal operating conditions.
Daniel Murray the issue is, you would create an alternate grid-like solution. So you there's a chance that your system might create an alternating 50 Hz and if there's a malfunction in the switch both networks could be switched together, creating a huge electric discharge.
So you have to install a certified power transfer switch and have to inform your grid provider.
Else he has the right to cut your powerline. :)
So if I understand correctly, Mr. Amadeus has normal solar instalation with Net Metering with three phase inverters and then he install a powerwall 1 and 2.5 kW two way inverter and the inverter is only one phase.
So the meter measures the flow of the electricity for all three phases and then comunicate with the powerwall inverter and command the inverter what to do.
What if he has a power demmand on one phase and the inverter is on other phase?
In that case you either just have to make sure the demand is on the same phase as the Powerwall, or install multiple Powerwalls (one for each phase).
That isn't a solution.
The fact is that it is not customized for 3 phase.
You could use the DC powerwall with a three phase inverter. That's now no longer an option with the powerwall 2.
What event causes the Tesla PowerWall to flow DC electricity to the inverter to then be converted and used as AC electricity by the house which is behind the meter? Does it have some sort of internal timer combined with its ability to monitor its state of charge that causes this action? Where is the safety disconnect so that utility workers are not hurt by a flow from the battery to the grid?
There's a separate meter just before the electricity company's meter. The data from that allows the powerwall/inverter to follow the load allowing import of a tiny amount of power but ensuring you don't export. The inverters have a european certification called EN50438 which includes standard disconnect relays in the inverter, if the grid power is not present or stable on the AC side of the inverter, the inverter disconnects.
Thanks for that safety information cros13. How about my other question about what causes the PowerWall to dispense its stored electricity?
It's load following based on the readings from the meter/gateway. So if your household load is say 5.8kW the meter readings indicate to the powerwall that you are now importing 5.8kW and it outputs to follow the demand (say 5.7kW). The inverter in the middle just converts whatever it's fed to AC. This load following calculation happens many times a second so that the output of the powerwall always follows the consumption of the house and never exports.
Oh I think I understand now. Does the PowerWall operate like an uninterruptible power supply like I've plugged my computer into only for the whole house?
Only with an islanding inverter like this: electrek.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/storedge-powerwall-solaredge-inverter.jpg?quality=82&strip=all&w=1000
In a powerwall 2 AC install or powerwall 1 with a separate inverter like in Bjorn's video backup power is currently not supported.
You have to run the maths and see what works for you and what value you place on features like that. Islanding inverters are 4-5 times the price of basic string inverters.
That was nice "was heist Halterung?" :-)
Connector ... :D War aber ja verständlich.
In Australia I can't charge my Tesla Powerwall 1 from the grid either, it is charged only by my Solar Installation.
I think it's unlikely that anyone would want to anyway as grid energy is more expensive.
The inverter design determines if you can use your Powerwall as a backup when the grid goes down, backup inverters are more expensive.
The powerwall 1 weighs 98Kg according to my installer.
How much does it cost ? LiFEPO4 battery 16 x 110 Ah === 5800 Wh, cost 2400 € and will last 8000 cycles if BMS manages cycles from 15 do 95 % SOC, or 5000 cycles, if cycled from 10 to 100 % SOC.
The 13.2kWh powerwall 2 AC is €6300 including bi-directional inverters and ~20% VAT
Can we get a look under the skirt?
It makes no sense to me that we have this crazy regulations in Germany, that we can't store electricity at home for later usage. Somewhat un-understandable.
I hope no one will forbid cell phone batteries for home usage one day ;-)
However, when it's about your own home grid, one could ignore this and build up his own home energy storage anyway.
The only thing that matters is safety. If that's given, where would be the point in forbidding home energy storage?
Regarding the usage of the powerwall in a cabin: I guess you only need an inverter powerful enough to support the powerwall with energy, where the output current should have 50Hz AC. That's all, right?
6:30 Have I been committing crimes all my life charging my electronic devices from the German grid?
Paul Hendrix well, no. It has to do with the capacity and the ability to generate 3 phase AC-Power. So if the system is an alternation to the power net, you have to get a permission. Cause your grid-provider need to certify your system.
There are exceptions, like for USVs, they come with a permissive to allow the usage.
Thanks :D I was expecting something like that, but was still amused at how he said it. Couldn't the Powerwall qualify as a USV? If you keep it disconnected from the grid there shouldn't be a problem, right?
Paul Hendrix Powerwall II will be, Powerwall I does not got an Inverter, sooo. Technically the Inverter would had been certified that way. While none are.
You still could get luck and get it certified by your power net provider for some hundred bucks.
But you're still not allowed to charge it from power from the grid and sell it back when it's cheap. Also you're not allowed to charge it with any kind of solar and sell it from the battery.
The issue here is, you get a huge selling price for your solar power, it might be less than the average household-price for electricity, but way more than actually the buy-price for electricity is. So we talk about -1 to 6 cent normal range here.
Everybody pay a special tax in Germany on electrical power, to found this difference. Some older installations also get 35 cent or even more for their solar power.
If you would store normal grid energy, they would be counted as "generated solar" which would lead to wrong tax spending.
Also you would destabilize the net, if everybody would takeup cheap energy and sell it when it's expensive, since you would decentralized but nearly at the same time change the power output by a large amount, which is very hard to predict. That's the reason why we need smarter energy storages which automatically react to net-frequency changes and start to charge/discharge when the network is in trouble to keep the frequency stable. :)
Man darf bei uns keinen Netzstrom in Akkus speichern? Seit wann? Davon höre ich zum ersten mal. Jede USV (und die gibts ja auch mit sehr großen Kapazitäten) macht doch genau das, den Strom für die Akkus aus dem Netz ziehen. Dass es in der Regel keinen Sinn macht Netzstrom in einer Powerwall zu speichern ok, aber dass es bei uns verboten ist?
Cool :)
oh shit it's Scarce!
1 st
6:30 Have I been committing crimes all my life charging my electronic devices from the German grid?